June 21, 2023 Show with Chad Bird on “The Old Testament Guide to Messy Discipleship”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning

issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this

21st day of June 2023.

I'm thrilled to have as a first -time guest today someone who, although

being a Missouri Synod Lutheran, was recommended to me by several Reformed Baptists,

of which I am one, and his name is Chad Bird.

He is an author, scholar -in -residence at 1517, and co -host of the

popular podcast 40 Minutes in the Old Testament.

Today, we're going to be addressing his book, Limping with God, Jacob and the Old Testament

Guide to Messy Discipleship.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Chad Bird.

Thank you, Chris. Glad to be here.

Oh, it's a thrill to have you on the program.

I thoroughly enjoyed your book.

There were a couple of disagreements I had with it, which I will bring up at some point.

But all in all, I was blessed by it richly, and I recommend it to our listeners.

First of all, tell us about 1517.

Yes, 1517.

As those who know the history of the Reformation know, that was the year in which we typically say the

Reformation began.

That was when Martin Luther nailed the 95 PCs on the church door, the spark that set off the

Reformation.

So 1517 gets its name from that year.

We are an organization, nonprofit, that's based in Reformation theology, and so thus

the name.

Basically, what we do is we take the good news of Christ crucified and resurrected for us,

and we just get it out there in as many ways as we can, whether that's your podcast or your publishing house, through in

-person events, through videos, free academy courses, you name it.

We're in all those various areas, taking the message of the gospel to people.

What I do is my background is in Hebrew and the Old Testament, and so as I like to say, I teach the

gospel with an Old Testament accent.

So whether I'm writing books, such as this one about Jacob, or whether I'm podcasting or in -person events, I will draw upon the Old

Testament as a way of confessing the good news and bringing that to people in whatever form that

might be.

So apologetics, theology, Bible, all of that is kind of what 1517 is all about.

And for more details on 1517, go to 1517 .org.

In fact, some of you, after this live program is over, you might want to go to the Iron Sharpens Iron

radio website, ironsharpensironradio .com, and type in the archive,

or should I say the search engine for the archive, Scott Keith, and

you will hear an interview I conducted with Scott, who is with

1517 as well.

You will hear an interview I conducted with him on January 8th of 2018 on

his book, Being Dad, Father as a Picture of God's Grace.

So I hope you enjoy that program as well.

Well, before we get into the actual book, Limping with God,

Jacob and the Old Testament Guide to Messy Discipleship, this book was not written in a vacuum.

Your own personal experience as a person who views himself as

a sinner saved by grace helped to give birth to this book.

I mean, that really exuded throughout the book.

And you actually were honest enough to discuss at least briefly at

some point in the book some of your own failures as a Christian, as a husband, and so on.

If you care to mention any of that so we get an idea, so our listeners will get an idea, the

frame of mind and the experience that you have had as a Christian that led

you to write this book to begin with.

Yeah, I'd be happy to.

So to tell a little bit about my background, I was raised in a church -going family.

As Southern Baptists, we were in church every Sunday.

And very thankful for the fact that I had a very godly mother and father who introduced me to the Word of God, took me to church, took me to

Sunday school, so that I was immersed from an early age in the scriptures.

In fact, it seems as if when I was even a little boy, I had a fascination with the Old Testament at one point.

I memorized all of Genesis 1.

And that, I guess, was an early indication of the fact that the Old Testament was always going to be at

the forefront of my heart and mind.

Later in life, later in my young adult years, I went on to university and seminary,

served as a pastor for a while.

And then I was actually called back to the seminary to teach Hebrew and various Old Testament courses.

And it was a great job.

It was really my dream job.

And to kind of get to what you were alluding to earlier, it was during that time that really pride got to

me.

And as we all know, pride goes before fall, and mighty was my fall.

I basically ruined my life and was left without many friends,

without much of a reputation, without a marriage, and also only seeing my kids a couple weekends

a month.

It was a very, very dark and trying time in my life.

God used that in order to humble me as well as to work, as He

always works, to conform us to the death of Christ and to raise us to newness of life.

And also during that time, He began to really put me in the Psalms so that I learned there the language of the

languishing.

And I learned that in our darkest times is often when we see the light of Christ most.

Clearly.

So that was a formative period in my life.

And it was at the end of that that I began to work for 1517, part -time

first and then full -time.

And I've been with him for about three years now.

And so what I like to say is that I draw upon my academic experience at Hebrew Union College,

where I worked on a graduate degree, and my pastoral experience, as well as my experience in what Luther

calls the Tentatio and the struggle, the Anfectum, the cross -bearing of life.

In order to pull all these together, pastoral experience and teaching experience

and this real -life experience, in order to take the Scriptures and to bring out of them

this message of hope as well as the call to repentance that we have in, well, books like Genesis and the

life of Jacob and whatever else it might be.

So I'm grateful now for how God used

my struggles and failures in the past in order to break me down and to reshape me into

what I hope is a faithful servant of the Word and one who can communicate that to others.

Amen.

Again, only the Christian can find hope and

peace of mind in the fact, in the promise that Romans

8 .28 offers.

Romans 8 .28 is often used in a cliche manner, unfortunately.

It's used as a placard.

It's thrown out there very often in greeting cards and other things to

anybody that may be going through a trial, maybe going through grief,

depression, failure, or what have you.

But only the Christian can claim that all things

will work together for the good for those who love God and are called according to His

purpose.

And that's all things.

And that includes our sin, doesn't it?

It doesn't mean that that gives us a license to sin.

It doesn't mean that that gives us a motivation, oh, I should sin because God's going to use it for my good.

But we don't have to look at our past sins and say that I have no

hope for a future, I have no hope of being used by God, I am a failure, and I should just be

discarded in the trash heap of humanity.

We know that God can even use our sins for our good.

Is that correct?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, we see that exemplified clearly in the cross of Christ, but we see that already exemplified in the book of Genesis with

Joseph.

I mean, Joseph makes it explicit, right?

You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

Yeah, so God was able to use these backstabbing brothers who sold their own brother into slavery and lied to their father

and broke his heart and did all these terrible things.

God was able to use that to put Joseph where he wanted him in order that through Joseph he might bring life

to all of those people that he saved by planning for the upcoming famine.

And we see that same thing throughout the Scriptures, where God is using broken humanity, rebellious humanity,

and he's using these things in order to work toward his ultimate goal of bringing salvation

to us in Christ.

Yes, your views of the sovereignty of God over even human sin are making me

wonder, are you sure you're not a Calvinist?

Well, we have a lot in common, let's put it that way.

Well, I'm glad to hear you say that because I have grown to know many Lutherans over the years, and

although I think the majority of those that I know have that view, there are some that have a real

antagonistic view towards Calvinism and Calvinists.

But I'm glad that you are not among them.

As we have a tradition of doing on this program, we have first -time guests

give a summary of their salvation story.

Although we have one gospel and one Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ and

one Word of God, we do have different stories of how God

and his providence have led us to himself.

So we'd like to hear something about your story in summary form, the kind of religious atmosphere, if

any, in which you were raised, and the kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to

himself and saved you.

Yeah, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, I was blessed to be born into a Christian family, and so

as I was just discussing with a friend of mine earlier today, there never was a time in my life when I

can remember being outside church in the sense of never going.

So from my earliest years, I was always in the pew singing the hymns, hymns many of which I still know by

heart, going to Sunday school, learning these foundational stories.

And every meal, my family would have a prayer.

I saw the life of the Christian exemplified in my own mother and father.

And early in my life, probably actually very, very young for the tradition in which I found myself as a

Southern Baptist, I believed, I confessed, and I was baptized.

I think I was probably five, maybe six years old, which is

very, very young, at least at that time, very young for someone who was a Southern Baptist to,

as they would say, to make a public profession and then to be baptized.

But I contribute that to the fact that I was hearing the gospel.

I was hearing about Christ crucified and risen for me, and the Spirit does what the Spirit does.

He uses that word to work faith in the hearts of men and women, as well as little boys and girls.

So as a little boy, the Spirit used that word to work faith in my heart.

And even that young, I can still remember the day in which I knew that I believed, and

then I was later baptized.

So I'm grateful for that foundation that I had.

There have been many times, as I was talking about a few minutes ago, many times in my life where, due to my own

sin and rebellion, I strayed from that path.

But God, His mercy brought me back.

Like the end of Psalm 119 says, I've gone astray like a lost sheep.

And God brings me back.

He goes and puts that one lost sheep on His shoulders.

Sometimes that has been me, and He brings me back home.

So I've always been part of the church's life.

There was a period during my life when I was upset,

confused, shamed, and did not go to church as much as I needed to.

But again, God was patient with me.

He restored me.

And I'm grateful now to be one who not only is part of the faith, believes and goes to church, but

also is privileged to be able to share that with others, to give them hope, to

give them the comfort that we have in Christ.

Amen.

I'm going to give our listeners our e -mail address.

If you would like to join the conversation with a question of your own for Chad Byrd, our e -mail address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you

live outside of the USA.

We would ask of you to do that, but obviously if there is some kind of a personal and private

question that you have, especially since we are dealing with, in this devotional

Limping with God, we're dealing with how God uses broken people,

that just because someone has sinned miserably and failed miserably in this life,

if they repent and return to God, he can use them in many powerful ways.

I mean, even when we view the apostle Paul as a primary example,

but obviously that may lend itself if you're listening and you are one of those people, perhaps you just

are at a point in your life where you believe God is through with you.

You can never be used of him in any significant way or in any way at all, again, and you have

a question that would compel you to remain anonymous.

We understand that, but if it's a general question, we just ask of you to please give us your first name, city and

state and country of residence.

Jacob is a very interesting character in the Old Testament, in the entirety of the scriptures,.

Actually.

Obviously a Calvinist's heart starts beating very quickly when they hear

Jacob, because it's one of the primary figures in the scriptures that we

use when we are defending our own understanding of unconditional election.

And Jacob, I love and Esau, I hate it.

But why is it that in this book you decided to

use Jacob as a poster boy for

the average disciple as a person who

we can connect with, unless of course the self -righteous among us

who likely are not regenerate, if they really are, they're not going to see a connection because they don't view

themselves as a sinner.

But we should, as you probably agree, echo the apostle

Paul's own words when we view ourselves as the chief of centers.

But tell us why Jacob, why is he the poster boy in this book?

Well,.

For reasons, one of the reasons is because we know so much about him.

So he is a character, really the first character in the scriptures in which we know everything, not everything, but we

know at least a lot about him from the very beginning of his life to the very end.

We know quite a bit about Abraham, for instance, and some about Isaac, but we meet Jacob literally

in utero.

He's not even been born yet.

And then we follow his steps all the way from that moment to his very end, to his death,

to his death in Egypt.

So we have a lot of information, a lot of biographical information about him.

We meet him in Genesis 25, halfway through the book.

And then we hear about his death later in the book of Genesis.

So that's one reason.

There's a lot to work with there.

We get to really know him as a personality, as a character.

Anyone who's read his story knows that he is a fascinating character, fascinating in some good ways and fascinating in some bad ways,

but he's certainly never boring.

He's very, he's very helpful.

So one of the reasons is, is that another reason, and really the primary reason that I decided to use him,.

As you say,.

As kind of a poster boy for discipleship is because I see him as, in many ways, as

exemplifying who we also are as sinner saints, as those who are redeemed by the beloved Christ and made

holy by the.

Spirit,.

But also at the same time, we still struggle with our, with our sinful nature.

And we see the sinful nature in Jacob exemplified in many forms and fashions and his interactions with his brother,

with his parents, with his wives, with his kids, with, with other people as well.

So when I look at the life of Jacob, I see myself reflected.

I see a lot of other people reflected.

And in the midst of this life, that's got its, its problems, its family issues,

its failures.

We have a God who steadfastly loves Jacob.

He chose him.

He called him.

He made him his own.

He promised him his blessing.

And in many ways, most shockingly of all, he used this guy who has all of

these, these problems as also Israel.

So the, what we might think of as the head of the Old Testament church, as it were the, the one really

after him, the people of God are named.

So that fascinated me.

And I wanted to take some time to really immerse myself in his story, get to know him and to

get to knowing him, know myself better and getting to know Jacob and myself better also

better understand and appreciate the fact that God loves

Jacob.

God loves me.

God loves us as, as sinners and as failures.

And it's not our, it's not our sins that as it were tell, keep God away

from us, but rather he, he comes to us.

He calls us to himself, calls us to repentance and blesses us as we, as I say,

live along in this life of discipleship.

Okay.

We do have already an anonymous listener.

An anonymous listener says, how much of what you

know now about yourself and about God and about theology and the

Bible came about while you are still in the process of writing this book, or were

most of those things predominantly resolved in your mind before you hit pen

to paper?

That's a great question.

I think that anyone who has taken up their pen or their, their computer and

begun to write a book is, is first of all, working with certain amount of knowledge,

certain amount of biblical knowledge, theological knowledge, knowledge about themselves.

But the process of writing is itself revelatory in the sense that it reveals

things about us.

And as we, as we begin to, to go through the biblical story, we're going to,

especially you kind of slow down as you're going, as you're writing a book like this, you have to, you're slowing down the

biblical story.

You begin to see things that you didn't see before or connections that you, that you didn't see

before.

And along with those connections, along with those new insights, you not only understand the biblical text better, but

you also,.

If you're,.

If you're doing this in a very, in a very honest sort of way, you begin

to learn more, learn more about your, yourself as well.

And I'll go ahead and add this because this is not in the book.

And so someone who's read the book would not have known this.

And unless, you know, my personal history of the last year, you would know this as well.

But so this book came out this last July.

I wrote it the year before, but it was published in, in July.

And it was, it was released about four days after the death of

my 21 year old son,.

Luke.

So of course, when I was writing the book in the eight, 12 months

before its release, I had no idea that this was going to happen.

It was not anywhere on my horizon.

Luke died in a, in a hiking accident.

So when he was,.

He was in,.

He's a student at the United States Naval Academy.

He was studying abroad in Chile and during a hiking accident,.

He,.

He was killed.

Now I say that because what has been remarkable to me is that

when I have re read portions of the book, and especially when my readers read

the book, many of them reached out to me to say something along the lines of Chad,

it seems as if what you wrote here, God had you say,

because he knew that you yourself would need to read it later

on.

So I, I think that's an appropriate point to, to add that because sometimes we even write things and,.

Okay, yes,.

We're learning as we write, we're learning more about, about ourselves and then by Jacob, but even sometimes afterward,

we realize more about the things that are in the book that we never really knew

because we had yet to experience.

Things in life that give, give us a different perspective on how God is at work

in our lives.

Well, thank you, anonymous listener.

I'm not sure why you chose to be anonymous since that was a fairly general question, but perhaps you

are going through something very painful in your life.

You want to have hope that God can still use you if you have repented and returned to him.

Well, you are going to receive, if you provide for me your full name and full

mailing address through an email, obviously that won't be divulged over the air, but you will

receive a free copy of Limping with God, Jacob and the Old Testament Guide to Messy Discipleship, compliments of our

friends at 1517 and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who

will actually be shipping the book out to you.

And that is at no charge to you or to us.

So thank you for your question.

We're going to be going to our very first commercial break right now.

If you want to get in line and ask a question of your own of Chad Bird on his

book, Limping with God, Jacob and the Old Testament Guide to Messy Discipleship.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Of course, we will broaden the field for questions.

For instance, if you have a curiosity about his Lutheran faith specifically, you may ask that

anything involving his knowledge and wisdom and experience and studies in the Old

Testament, whatever the case may be, we'll allow you to ask the question if it is relatively connected

to my guest and what we're discussing.

So send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

And as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away.

We'll be right back with Chad Bird and Limping with God right after these messages from our sponsors.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I

are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching,.

Teaching,.

Writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news.

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration

fee.

Go to g3min .org.

That's g3min .org and enter promo code

G3ISIR.

That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday,.

The 23rd,.

The G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while

you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your

30 discount off the registration fee.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close circuit television, access control

and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties,

municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording,

offsite viewing and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it.

We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms.

We'll create, maintain and secure your local network, whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network,

we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations,

call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355.

Or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com.

This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Armson's family of advertisers to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests and

kings.

We teach families to worship together as families.

Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of

God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline and exalt

Christ.

This is Pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the

kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church.

Believe.

Build.

Fight.

PuritanPHX .com.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville

Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Chuck White of the First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Justin Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB.

And tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com to place your order.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show

he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Morecraft.

I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland,

going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Morecraft.

If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Morecraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

Georgia are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards.

And Dr. Joe Morecraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism.

Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant

Reformation of the 16th century.

Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone,

grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone.

Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch

.com.

That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

Or call 678 -954 -7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831.

If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland,

sent you.

Here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, praise God for the generous monthly financial support of

Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the American Gem

Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom -designed engagement ring, or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry, created

exactly according to your imagination and specifications, Royal Diadem Jewelers

has you covered.

No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step -by -step through every stage of the

process, and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit, using state -of -the -art jewelry design

technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs.

They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.

From rough design to digital model, to photo -realistic image, to wax prototype model, to

the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes,

making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed, and well beyond your

expectations.

Visit royaldiadem .com.

That's royaldiadem .com today.

Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner

and manager, Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for,

and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget folks, royaldiadem .com is still offering Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio this mind -blowing opportunity.

They are going to give us 100 of the profits from any sale of

jewelry to an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener as long as they mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when

making their purchase at royaldiadem .com.

Whether it is a piece of jewelry they already have in stock at royaldiadem .com, or if you're having

a customized piece of jewelry created, like an engagement ring, or let's say

somebody in our audience loves Chad Bird so much they want to present to him a

piece of jewelry that is Luther's Rose or something like that, perhaps as a pendant for a necklace or a ring,

or whatever your imagination and creativity can conjure up in your mind, royaldiadem

.com will take what's in your brain and turn it into a physical piece of jewelry that will actually

blow your mind and you will be extremely impressed, which is an understatement.

I have seen their breathtaking work and their mastery over custom designed jewelry firsthand

and I assure you, you will be very satisfied beyond words

because as I said before or as the commercial said, they go

step by step through every phase of the jewelry creation process so

it's going to be without question exactly according to your specifications so you have no need to fear

about that and changes can always be made so go to royaldiadem .com, please

go to that website soon because we have no idea when they're going to pull the plug on their amazing offer

to us where we will receive 100 of the profits just by our listener mentioning

that they heard about royaldiadem .com from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio that's royaldiadem .com we're

now back with my guest today Chad Bird, author, scholar and residence at 1517

and co -host of the popular podcast 40 Minutes in the Old Testament we're addressing his book Limping with God Jacob and the

Old Testament Guide to Messy Discipleship and actually you have

more than one website I'm sorry, more than one podcast not only do you

have 40 Minutes in the Old Testament but you also have Hidden Streams why don't you tell us about those podcasts before we

move on to the discussion of your book.

Yeah, I'd be happy to.

Hidden Streams is a devotional podcast.

It's based on the Psalms, the way it's structured is a psalm will be read or if it's a longer psalm then a portion of

that psalm will be read, that'll be followed by a brief meditation by me, which is usually about

5 minutes that is then followed by original music that's composed to compliment

the psalm and right now I think that we're.

I don't know how many episodes this is but we're around 100 and Psalm 109

so quite a few episodes are out, we're going to finish the book of Psalms and we're going to move on to other poetic parts of the Old Testament.

So Hidden Streams has been going on for the last, I think, probably 3 or 4 years now.

We also have one more podcast out.

It's a finished podcast.

It's called A Field Guide to the Bible.

I did that with two of my colleagues in 1517, it's 20 something episodes and what we did

is.

We took.

The Bible, Old Testament New Testament, and we tried to introduce it in such a way that someone who's new to the Scriptures,

they don't really know anything about the Bible, would get the big picture of the salvation story.

So we spent several episodes in Old Testament several episodes on the New Testament and by listening to all

of these within a matter of a few hours you kind of get the big picture of what the

entire biblical story is all about, so that's called A Field Guide to the Bible and then 40 minutes is

more of kind of chapter by chapter, verse by verse, in depth look at the Old Testament.

Amen and I'm assuming they can access these podcasts at 1517 .org.

They can see them at 1517 .org they're also available on any podcast.

App.

Okay, great, and you also have other books available there and God willing, perhaps we can have you

back on the program to address these other books that you have written.

In fact, we already have a listener from Findlay, Ohio,

Cindy, who simply says that she thanks you for agreeing to be on the

program.

She's loving listening to you and she hopes that you come back so that's just an

encouraging word from Findlay, Ohio, for you.

Before I go to any more of the listener questions I was just curious if you

agreed with my assessment after reading your devotional that it seems

that in addition to a primary message that God uses

broken people, in fact if he didn't use broken people, he wouldn't use any people because we're all broken.

But another thing that kept

brightly shining in my mind as I was going through this devotional is the

truth that God's ways are not our ways.

Would you agree that that is a primary emphasis that you had in mind as

something to convey to the reader?

Yeah, so in my tradition as well as in the Calvinist tradition, there's emphasis on

the theology of the cross and that by definition means that God's ways are not our ways because God is always going to be

working in a way that's upside down to our expectations where we expect

power, there's weakness.

Where we expect victory, there's a cross God is using weakness.

He's using those things in which the world is a shame in order to demonstrate his strength and his wisdom and so very

frequently.

This perspective of the theology of the cross, this kind of prism through which we view God's dealings with us

shines through in Old Testament examples and we certainly see that in Jacob's life

as well as multiple Old Testament characters also.

So yeah, God's ways are not our ways because just to give one example if God were to come to me and

say, hey Chad who do you think I should pick.

To be.

The top guy the guy after whom the Old Testament church is Old Testament community of God is

named to, what kind of person do you think that I should choose?

Well of course my immediate reaction might be well you need someone who's very exemplary in character.

They've got a great moral pedigree.

They have one wife they have great great children and just kind of have they have their

life put together.

They're going to present a good picture to the rest of the world as to what a believer

is and what commitment to God is going to look like.

Well then you get Jacob and you realize, well that doesn't really match Jacob at all, he's a guy who's messed up in

multiple kinds of ways riddled with weakness.

So God's ways are not our ways in who he chooses and how he uses certain

people.

And I mean we see this in the lives of suffering that these people endure as well.

Take Joseph for instance, all the things that he went through, kind of this.

I think Martin Luther calls it this gradual crucifixion where he goes down, down, down until he's finally in

the pit.

Literally he's in prison.

And yet God's ways were not Joseph's ways.

God used all of that in order to ready Joseph for the vocation to which he

had really had in mind all along to raise him up to be the one who sits beside Pharaoh

and orchestrates the plans for the coming famine.

So yeah, God's ways are not our ways.

We see that in the Bible over and over and we see it in our lives as well.

We have Susan Margaret from Dauphin County, Pennsylvania who asks.

In the beginning of the program Chris Arnzen introduced you as a Lutheran.

I know that there are things that are universally held by both

Reformed and Lutheran heirs of the Protestant Reformation but I was wondering if there was anything

in your book that is uniquely Lutheran.

That's a great question and it's kind of a question that we could take outside of my own book into my other

books as well as to my podcast and just kind of all the public teaching that I do

I'm always coming from a theological perspective that is informed by my own

Lutheran confessional theology but I sincerely endeavor in a very conscious

sort of way to major on the majors.

There was a period in my life especially kind of during my early years when I had converted to Lutheranism when I had the

zeal of a convert and I would only read Lutheran books, mainly talk to Lutheran people about

Lutheran things and as I got older I realized that one of the things

we can do is we can either focus upon those things which divide us

or we can focus upon those things which unite us not, as it were, denying the things that

divide us but not majoring on minors.

And so I say all that in order to kind of answer the question did I

approach Lenting with God as it were to kind of Lutheranize people or to really trumpet Lutheran

theology?

The answer is an absolute no.

It is informed by Lutheran theology to be sure, but my goal is to always

write books or do podcasts in such a way that yeah, there's going to be distinctives that come out at times but I'm

trying to focus on those things which unite us, which are when I say

us, I'm talking about people who are part of the classical Orthodox Trinitarian

confession.

So us, that's what I mean by that.

So focus on those things in order that we can really

hear these things that God says to us that are the most important, that are these primary

areas of theology—sin and repentance and the gospel and who Christ is

and discipleship and prayer and all those kinds of subjects.

Great.

Well, Susan Margaret, you've also won a free copy of the book that we are addressing by Chad Byrd,

Limping with God.

Please make sure we get your full mailing address so that we can have

cvbbs .com ship that book out to you at no charge to you or to Ion Sharpens Ion Radio,

and we want to thank once again our friends at 1517 for providing these

free copies of which we have a limited number to give away to listeners today.

We have Christopher in Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and

Christopher says, how do we— let's see,

he's got a little typo here—how do we convey to our loved ones

and friends who are depressed and agonizing over their

sin, but we want to do the comforting of them

without giving a seal of approval upon their lives?

Yeah, this is kind of a basic law gospel question is the way that I would answer that.

So, anytime that we're dealing with, we'll say in this case, loved ones who are leading

a life of sinful rebellion or drifting into one sin or another or whatever it might be, whether or not

they're not living a life in conformity with what God desires for us, and what is actually good for us.

It's not as if what God desires for us is bad for us.

He always desires what's good for us.

So, if we see someone doing that, well, it kind of depends on the

person and our relationship to them, but whatever that relationship might be, we approach them with a

word of God's law, speaking the truth in love, not rushing in

with this fiery judgment, but rather prompted by a love and concern for the

sinner, we speak to them God's truth.

Hey, this isn't right.

This isn't good for you.

This isn't what God desires for you.

This is not the kind of life in which you're actually going to thrive on the

grace of God, because you are, as it were, separating yourself from He who is your life itself.

And the goal of that, of course, is not simply to make them feel bad.

The goal is certainly not to shame them.

The goal is to bring them to the point of confessing.

And by confessing, I mean agreeing with what God says, saying, you know what?

What God says about me and my sin is absolutely right.

He is right and I am wrong.

I should not be doing this.

I should not be practicing this.

This is not the life that God desires for me.

And I confess that sin.

And then that is exactly where God wants them to be in order then to hear

the good news that for that sin, Christ has died.

Whatever that sin might be, for that, that's exactly why Christ came.

He came in order that sinners might be saved.

And so He went to the cross for you, for that sin.

And because of that, you know that the blood of Jesus Christ covers that sin.

And in so doing, we can give them that consolation that we all crave, that we all need.

And so hopefully bring some light into their darkened lives and

because of that light, bring them into a place of hope and healing and where they're

once more where God wants His children to be.

Yeah, I'm sure that you would agree that the fact that the person, as the listener indicated,

the hypothetical person, is grieving over a sinful life, at least

we can assure them that is a very positive first sign that you

are on the way, if not already arrived at having peace with God, because

you're at least demonstrating that you're not reveling and rejoicing and celebrating in your sin.

Yes, absolutely.

And that reflects the language of the Psalms of Repentance.

6, 32, 38, 51, 102.

I mean, all these Psalms of Repentance use that kind of language.

Sometimes it's couched in physical suffering sort of language.

My bones are crushed.

I'm trembling.

I'm weeping.

I'm drenching my couch with my bed with tears.

Often the Psalms will describe this kind of grieving over sin in very physical, tangible sorts of ways.

Now, we might experience it as anxiety, or a broken heart, or fear, or

any number of emotions, but it's all different ways of saying the law of God is having its way with us.

It's bringing us to the point of grieving over our sins, confessing, and hearing that

good news from God the Father that Jesus Christ has paid the price for.

That sin.

Well, Christopher— great name, by the way—you have won a free copy of the book

we are addressing by Chad Byrd, Limping with God.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address in western Suffolk County, Long Island, so that cvbbs

.com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship the book out to you at no charge to you or to us, and thanks again

to 1517 for providing a limited number of these books.

We have to go to our middle break right now.

The middle break is required of us by Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City,

Florida, who airs this program in a rerun format, or a pre

-recorded format, twice a day in morning drive and in the evening, and the FCC

requires of them to use the middle of our show to localize Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio

geographically to Lake City, Florida, and they do that with their own public service announcements and other local things

that localize this program to Lake City.

We, on the other hand, simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

Please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the contact information for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and

successfully contact our advertisers, hopefully to often buy their

products, use their services, and visit their churches, but when you cannot do any of those things, please do one

thing that everyone listening can do if you really love this show.

Thank our advertisers for sponsoring this program, and for making this program possible.

We cannot exist without the financial support that comes through the advertising dollars of our sponsors.

So please, at the very least, thank them, and send in your questions to Chad Bird, to chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

We'll be.

Right back.

James White.

Of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my long -time friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio and I

are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching,

writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news.

Chris Arnson of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration

fee.

Go to g3min .org that's g3min .org and enter promo code.

G3.

I S I R.

That's G3 I S I R for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, at the G3

National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio Exhibitor Booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while

you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3 I S I R for your

30 discount off the registration fee.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper,.

President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian

Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use

the eight -volume commentary on the Theology and Ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism, titled

Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Moorcraft.

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism.

It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and

systematic theology.

Dr. Moorcraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking

for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com

westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

Heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr. Joseph

Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Sent

you.

When Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio.

First launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my

very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

This is Gerald Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking podcast, and the NASB is my

Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor.

Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Andrew Rappaport, the founder and executive director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and

the NASB is my.

Bible of choice.

I'm Mark Romaldi, Pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Christopher Cookston, Pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon,

and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Matt Tarr, Pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com.

To place your order.

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and

also the host of the reformrookie .com website.

I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar.

You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many

solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now.

And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the ReformRookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube

page.

We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well

as seasoned believers.

From Keech's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform

Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession

of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio, and thanks for.

Listening.

If you love Iron.

Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our

advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God.

They go to various churches, schools and institutions to publicly display a rare collection

of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuoco,

demonstrating the reliability of Scripture.

To advance the cause of the Gospel, they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the

genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition

1611 King James Bible.

This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ

going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims

to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the

public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of $35

or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org.

That's.

Historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives

to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work

of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville maybe 10 minutes

or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will

join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org.

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign Lord

God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.

Do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Rooster.

I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have

never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists.

We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com.

Every day.

At thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops,

and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in

need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or.

Visit.

Liyfc .org That's liyfc .org.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com That's

solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And our Lutheran listeners today should be thrilled to know that solid -ground -books .com

includes books by and about Martin Luther and their vast

treasure trove of Christian literature dating back to the 16th century Protestant Reformation and

extending forward to our modern day, including such current authors as Dr. James R. White

of Alpha Omega Ministries.

But one thing in particular that they have that our Lutheran listeners might especially love to

hear about, they have a 31 volume commentary series by Martin Luther

which is only $864.

That's an amazing price for a 31 volume set.

That's a saving of $156.

And that's the softcover.

If you want the entire 55 volume hardcover set, that's

only $1 ,670, which is a saving of $200 off the list price.

So you can go to solid -ground -books .com to find out about that and other

wonderful books that they have, not only by and about Martin Luther, but

by and about men from all of the great streams of the Protestant

Reformation, including Presbyterian, Reformed Baptists, Congregationalists,

and Anglicans.

So go to solid -ground -books .com and always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen

of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

They are a primary sponsor of this program and we sure hate to lose them, so if you want to further

ensure that they keep renewing their advertising contract, please go to solid -ground -books .com

frequently and purchase generously.

Always mentioning Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I return to my guest Chad Bird and our discussion of his book Limping with God, I just have a

couple of very important announcements to make.

First of all, if you really love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, I'm urging you please to go to

ironsharpensironradio .com click support, then click click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion and if you prefer snail mail,

mailing in a physical check to a physical address, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen

when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio.

If you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you desire to promote is at the very least

compatible with what I believe, you don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least

compatible with what I believe, send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com and put

advertising in the subject line.

I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars

as we are in your donations.

Also, folks, please always remember I never want anybody listening giving their own church

where they are a member less money than you're accustomed to giving your church on the Lord's Day in order to give

us a financial gift.

In other words, don't cut into the giving that you have set aside for your own church on the Lord's Day in order to

bless us.

Never do that.

Also, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, please wait until you're back on your feet and

more stable financially before you send us a financial gift.

Two things that are very clear in the Bible about finances is that we are commanded by God to provide for our churches

and our families.

We are not commanded, obviously, to provide for my radio show, but if you do love the show,

you don't want it to disappear and you have extra money above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, you have extra

money collecting interest in the bank, extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, well, if

you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves, share some of that money with us, please.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click to donate now.

Also, please don't forget that Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries is

going to be in Lancaster, Pennsylvania September 15th, 16th, and 17th.

We are working on this conference, which may also involve a

theological debate, most likely with a liberal.

These things are still in their infancy as far as the development of the

events, so we hope that you will be checking up

on the progress of this event.

In fact, you could do so by visiting frequently futureofchristendom .org,

futureofchristendom .org.

For more updates, you can also go to midatlanticreformation .org, midatlanticreformation .org,

and these websites will be updated as we have more things finalized.

By the way, our Lutheran listeners should also be thrilled to know that on July 5th,

which is a Wednesday, I believe, on July 5th, we have returning to the program.

A.

Concordia Publishing House author, Jeff Williams, who is an astronaut, and we

had had him on the program in the past to discuss his book, The Work of His Hands,

A View of God's Creation from Space.

He has taken more photographs from space than any other astronaut in history, and as I said,

his book is published by Concordia Publishing House, so mark your calendars for July 5th

as Jeff Williams returns to our program.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound,

doctrinally solid church, no matter where you live on the planet Earth, I have extensive lists spanning the globe

of biblically faithful churches, and I've helped many people in our audience find churches, sometimes within just a few minutes from where they live,

in all places in the world.

And that may be you, too.

If you are having a hard time finding a biblically faithful church home, no matter where you live, send me an email to

chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Chad Bird, author of Limping with God, Jacob and the Old

Testament Guide to Messy Discipleship.

That is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us a first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Chad, let me just address the only two areas

in your book that I remember disagreeing with you over.

The first one we don't even have to discuss because it's an obvious issue that divides

Calvinists and Lutherans.

In your very brief mention of baptism, there is a unique Lutheran view on

that that Calvinists do not share.

But there was a section of your book, and forgive me if I am

misrepresenting what you said, you can clarify this, but it seemed to me that you had mentioned in the

book that it is completely acceptable to be angry

at God.

And while I would agree that that is nearly a universal problem amongst

Christians, even the finest and most sanctified and godly of

Christians may battle with that, with the exception of some

super -sanctified saints among us that may have never fallen into that.

But regardless of the fact that it is common, I have always viewed anger

toward God as a sin.

Now if you could please explain that statement in your book, just to further clarify what you meant by it.

Yeah, if I want to remember, it's probably in the section later in Jacob's life when he is

misled by his own sons to believe that his favorite son, Joseph, has in fact been

torn to pieces by a wild animal.

And so this is the deep grief into which he slides.

That's probably the context in which I said what I did.

I just can't remember if I used the word anger or not.

Probably did, because I frequently would use that to describe what is

expressed frequently in the Psalms.

And I'm certainly open to other words that might be used to describe how

the Psalms will give expression to the blank.

And you can fill in that blank with anger, bitterness, disappointment, disillusionment, whatever it might be, with

God, because of the situation in which they find themselves.

And sometimes this is an individual lament.

Sometimes this is a corporate lament.

But at least some scholars have estimated that up to 40 of the Psalms are in

the genre of lament.

Not the entire Psalm, perhaps, but part of it.

So this is definitely a mainstream way, a foundational way, in which

not only Israel, but also the Church and individual Christians have prayed.

And some of this language is very strong.

It's scattered all over the Psalms where there'll be questions.

So, how long?

And why?

And at times it's have you forgotten to be gracious?

And why are all these terrible things happening to me?

So that's what I'm trying to communicate in that chapter.

And again, because I'm open to suggestions on other ways to describe this, that's not using

the word anger.

Whatever word that we stick in there, the person who prays the

Psalms and in praying these words, doesn't just kind of speak them, but actually

is expressing where they themselves are.

The negativity of the emotion is apparent.

And the pain that is there is apparent.

And that's the way that lament works.

So, I mean, that's kind of where I'm coming from there.

And the reason that I couched it in the language that I did, to harken back to something we earlier

discussed, kind of toward the beginning of our first hour, it was during my darkest days when

I began to pray the Psalms canonically, beginning with one, going all the way to the end, and then starting

over again.

And it was then that I discovered this kind of what I call the language of the languishing, where the

Psalms give expression to these deepest and darkest emotions that we feel.

And in praying them, we're actually able to verbalize where we're at, and in

so doing, not just kind of lash out, but actually pray to God and place

our.

Needs,.

Our frustrations, our disappointments before Him, and of course

then ask Him to intervene and to act to bring us out of that darkness into light, out of that

despair into hope once more.

Yes, I would agree that we get nowhere in our communication

with God in our prayer life if we're lying to Him as if we could possibly pull the wool over God's eyes.

And if we are angry with Him, we should openly confess that to God and ask Him to

deliver us from this anger.

But perhaps at a future time we can discuss this further, because I'm still not

at peace with the knowledge of it being.

Acceptable.

To be actually angry with God.

And of course I know that you would agree that that can be extremely sinful and even

blasphemous, where somebody allows their anger towards God to

control them and it changes the way in which they speak

to Him in prayer.

In fact, I have encountered a couple of people who have wandered away

from the faith, who they claim to have a buddy -buddy

relationship with Jesus, like, He's my main man, He is

my friend, and therefore I could speak to Him like I speak to any friend, including

cursing His name when I disagree with Him, raising my middle finger to Him, and that to me

is the kind of behavior that you better watch out for lightning.

Would you agree with me there at least?

Yeah, absolutely, of course.

The way we speak to a friend is not the way we speak to the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

So, along with the necessity of honesty in prayer is also the necessity

of realizing who we are.

We're creatures, He's the Creator, and we are servants, and He is the Lord.

So, what I see there is holding together a tension of an acknowledgement of who we are

and also acknowledging the deep and the raw honesty that's expressed in the Psalms

and the willingness when we are in those places to not shy

away from those words.

It's one of the criticisms I actually have of some of the hymns as well as even some of the prayers

that we have in churches today.

They're a little bit too clean.

They're a little bit almost uber -pious, and they lack this realism

and this true emotional grit that we have in the Psalms.

That's why, for many years now, I've been a fan of the Psalms, as it were, and trying to

encourage more and more people to pray these so that they too can

find words that I haven't found anywhere else that actually do express

in an honest, forthright way where I'm at and my need for God to

step in and save me.

Yes, the Psalms are definitely replete with frustrations with God and

bafflement over why His greatest enemies live lives of luxury

and seemingly lives of superior ease and joy on

this planet while they are faithful children of God suffering.

There are many instances of that that is very clear.

And I share your frustration with some of our hymnody, and

sometimes I find myself in the middle of singing a hymn where the

words are making far too many claims about the one singing

that are actually true.

You know, like I love you God with all my heart, soul, and strength every day or

something like that.

What?

No, I don't.

If I did, I wouldn't need.

A Savior.

If that was the case.

That reminded me actually, I hope I'm not going off topic too much,

but the last questioner who was

asking about how to approach someone grieving over their sin where you want to encourage and

comfort them, but at the same time not giving a seal of approval on their sin.

I recently might surprise some of our listeners, but I recently watched a documentary on Donna

Summer, the disco queen of the 70s.

And the reason I watched it is because I remembered that she had made a profession of faith in Christ,

and through a considerable portion of her final years before dying of cancer,

she refrained from singing certain songs that she recorded in her past that were

explicitly sexual and things like that.

But it burdened my heart, it grieved me when I saw her in

the documentary after there was

pushback from the homosexual activists when she made a profession

of faith in Christ and apparently made a comment during a

concert that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

And there were other comments that she made.

There was one comment that she denied saying that God had brought

about the AIDS crisis as a punishment to homosexuals.

So, when she had a press conference, because she knew that she had alienated perhaps

the majority of her record -buying audience, since she seemed to be very popular amongst

homosexuals, since the disco scene was so highly infiltrated by

those folks.

During a press conference, she said that that

homosexuals are not sinners.

And I remember it, I felt like somebody kicked me in the stomach because I was hoping to hear

more convincing evidence of her salvation.

And I'm not saying she wasn't truly saved, because even the best of us can, out of fear,

say or do things, at least temporarily, that are

a betrayal of our Lord.

But for her to say that, for her to say homosexuals are not sinners, what she's saying is

that they don't have a Savior, because Jesus didn't come for the righteous.

Am I making sense here?

Yeah, perfect sense.

I mean, that is one of the dangers.

And you can apply this across the board to any sense.

If we start getting approval to disobedience, where

God has declared something to be disobedient, then pretty soon we're going to be left with, well, what need is there

of a Savior anyway?

If everybody's okay, if everybody can do whatever they want and not be sinning, then what need was

there for Christ to come and to live His life and to die His death and be resurrected?

So the more that we are truthfully and lovingly pointing out sin, we're also, at the same time,

truthfully and lovingly pointing people toward the Gospel.

So you can't have the Gospel unless you have the law, because the law is in the service of the Gospel.

Amen.

The aforementioned Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, who wrote in earlier just to thank you,

Chad, for being on the program.

She has actually now submitted a question, or perhaps plural, more than one question.

Hello, Chris and Chad.

Thank you for coming on the show today.

I have heard the phrase God repents us from two sources, yourself being

the first, and also the Theocast podcast.

There is some controversy in the Reformed Church lately regarding, must a person

repent in order to come to Christ?

In Sinclair Ferguson's book, The Whole Christ, which is an expose of sorts, on the book

by Edward Fisher, The Marrow of Modern Divinity, which discusses the topic of,

must a man forsake sin in order to come to Christ?

Some gather that this is not so.

Maybe I'm confused, but I see contradiction between evangelical styles.

For instance, for years I have followed Ray Comfort from Living Waters, who stresses strongly when

he evangelizes that a sinner must repent and then trust in Christ.

He stresses it so strongly it seems as though it is something that they are doing, almost as if it is

a work.

If God repents us and it is not something that we are doing, is there a

contradiction here?

And she has one more question after that.

Yeah,.

That is a phrase that I will sometimes use, usually by explaining exactly the background of that.

So in my own academic background is in studying Hebrew, and the

Hebrew verb that is used typically for repent is shuv.

It means to turn, to return, to turn around.

And there are many occasions in the Old Testament where the particular grammatical form of that verb is in the causative

form, meaning to cause to turn, so bring back or return is

a common way that it is translated.

And God is a typical subject of that.

So, we think for instance of Psalm 23, He restores my soul.

He brings me back.

And so because of that, God repents us, is a phrase that I will sometimes use, meaning that

God is the one who brings us back to Himself.

Now, that being said, does that mean that we don't have anything to do with repentance?

Well, no, of course not.

I mean, we repent, but how do we repent?

Well, God, through His word, calls us to repentance, and then brings us back to Himself.

So it is not as if we are automatons, it's not as if we're just kind of robots, and God is pushing us here and there.

We certainly do repent.

And why do we repent?

Because God has brought us back to Himself.

So, anyway, that's the Hebrew background to that phrase.

I use it because I think it accents the fact that well, let me say this differently.

I will often hear people talk about repentance as if it is the source of our

atonement.

Almost as if we take Jesus off the cross and we nail our repentance up there, as if it's a good work by which we somehow are

earning God's forgiveness.

Because I hear that so often, I like to emphasize the fact that yes, of course, we

need to repent.

We must repent.

And God is the one, therefore, bringing us about in our lives.

Amen.

Yes, and people, there are interdenominational

wars over this.

There are those amongst primarily, it seems, the dispensationalists

and fundamentalists,.

Although.

There would be exceptions, like John MacArthur, who believe that to say that

repentance is required of a person is adding works to faith to

justify them.

And that's not true.

The irony of that is those people that say that you have a false and damning

gospel by requiring repentance, they themselves must be saying you must repent

of believing that.

Oh, the irony.

Yes, so, but repentance, isn't it just turning

from one thing that you love to another?

Isn't it just a change of mind?

We cannot come to Christ unless we turn from our idol, or

idols, plural.

It has nothing to do with cleaning ourself up to be acceptable to Christ, because we could never do that.

In fact, that in and of itself is a false gospel of self -righteousness and works righteousness.

But we have to turn to Him.

I remember a pastor, a former pastor of mine, saying, and I don't know if you would agree with this analogy,

he said, a person is not truly coming to Christ

just as a husband or a groom is not truly coming to his bride

if he is walking down the aisle with prostitutes on each arm.

So, does that make sense to you?

Has anything that I said made sense to you?

Yeah,.

That makes perfect sense.

I mean, our hearts are always gravitating toward the true God or to false gods.

It's impossible in other words for a person to say, you know what, I'm not going to have any gods.

I'm just going to remain neutral.

That's an impossibility, because we have this built -in tendency, God gave it to us to

worship, and so it's a question, are we worshiping that which is true or worshiping that which is false?

And so repentance is God bringing us away from these false gods and bringing us then to

Himself.

And.

Cindy follows up, I think it is necessary that a person must be convicted of their sin and

understand that they are under the wrath of God, but that they look to Christ for forgiveness.

I personally think this comes first and then that then being

regenerated, God gives them a heart willing to repent and trust.

I'm trying to figure out if there is a grammatical error.

I personally think this comes first and that then being regenerated,

God gives them a heart willing to repent and trust.

Yes.

But I don't think unless you are regenerated, you will be convicted of your sin either.

So perhaps, I don't know if I'm misunderstanding Cindy, but the regeneration part, at least in my

Reformed Ordo Salutis, would come prior to the conviction

of sin, but it is an instantaneous following.

It is not some huge gap of time.

I don't know if Lutheranism would agree with that or not.

But if we cannot, the book of Romans teaches us that we cannot please

God in the flesh and if being convicted of our sin

pleases God, then we can't conjure that up from our dead hearts.

Until.

The Lord gives us faith and repentance and gives us a new heart.

Does that jive at all with what you would believe as a Lutheran in that area?

Yeah, absolutely.

So whatever does not proceed from faith is sin, and therefore, if there's

a conviction because of the preaching of the law, and if there's faith and there's repentance in all these things,

then that is the work of the Spirit who is bringing us to that point of conviction and

repentance and confession in faith.

Well, Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, you seem to be very familiar with my

guest, Chad Bird.

If you already have his book, I'm just asking you two questions.

Do you want to receive another copy to give to a friend or loved one, or do you want us

to pass this copy on to another listener?

Because we've only been given a limited number of copies by 1517.

So either way, you've won Limping with God, Jacob and the Old Testament Guide to Messy Discipleship,

and you could do what you'd like with it, either pass it on to another listener or you yourself can give it to somebody

that you love.

We're going to our final break.

If you have a question and you want to give us enough time to have

my guest answer it, please send it in immediately, because we are running out of time.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back with Chad Bird.

Please do not go away.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching,

teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, The Sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott

Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news.

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration

fee.

Go to g3min .org that's g3min .org and enter promo code

g3isir that's g3isir for the 30 discount.

Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the G3

National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on The Sovereignty of God.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor Booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while

you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code g3isir for

your 30 discount off the registration.

Fee.

I'm

Brian

McLaughlin,.

President of the SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio Program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control,

and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings as well as churches, commercial properties,

municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself including digital recording, off

-site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it.

We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms.

We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network.

Whether it's a Wi -Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall,

endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations,.

Call.

718 -353 -3355.

718 -353 -3355.

718 -353 -3355.

Or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com.

This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and

kings.

We teach families to worship together as families.

Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of

God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ.

This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and over the kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church.

Believe.

Build.

Fight.

PuritanPHX .com.

They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because frankly

much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith

insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your

day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and

in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

Sharpens Iron financially.

Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth

grade—do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Brewster.

I'm the president of Truth Love Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have

never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth Love Parent exists.

We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in

Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the

unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ

Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope

Reform Baptist Church in

Corham, Long Island, New York, please visit our website at ally .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God.

They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare

collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuco

demonstrating the reliability of Scripture.

To advance the cause of the Gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the

genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition

1611 King James Bible.

This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ

going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims

to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public

in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35

or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org.

That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmonton Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform.

Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Sule.

Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the NASB

is my Bible.

Of choice.

I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the NASB is.

My Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Steve Herford of East Fort Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is

my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com to place your order.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast, often enough you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other

documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

And besides that, they feel so good.

I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot.

Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like

the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my Nestle All in 28th edition with a navy

blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a French tannery used to rebind a

Reformation study Bible I used as a gift.

The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished

chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather,

making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to

PTLBibleRebinding .com.

That's PTLBibleRebinding .com.

Welcome back.

We are now in the last segment of our interview with Chad Byrd on his book Limping with

God, Jacob and the Old Testament Guide to Messy Discipleship.

Chad, we have two questions from two different listeners on Martin Luther.

The first one is choosing to remain anonymous.

I am remaining anonymous because this has to do with a dispute amongst my Roman Catholic

family, and the constant thing that they hurl at me in

regarding Martin Luther as if we should not trust anything that he wrote or

said or did is because he believed that the Epistle

of James was not a canonical or a God -breathed epistle.

In fact, he called it an epistle of straw and actually said, if I'm quoting this

accurately, I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove.

However, to my knowledge, that Luther never actually did remove the Epistle of

James from his German translation.

Am I right on that, and do you have anything else to say about how I should handle this dispute with my

Catholic family?

Well, I'm no expert on Luther, certainly no expert on Luther on James, but that is a pretty widespread

bit of knowledge about Luther's attitude toward James.

And I think part of what Luther says with the typical Luther hyperbole, of which

he was very fond.

So if it tells you anything about where he ultimately stood on the book, it certainly was in his translation of the New

Testament.

So it wasn't as if he's like, you know what, I'm going to throw Jimmy out.

I'm going to get rid of James completely.

I'm going to excise it from my canon.

So the fact that he includes it, and I'll add this, the Lutheran confessions, both in the

Augsburg Confession and the Apology to the Augsburg Confession, speak quite extensively about the book of James, in

particular in how what James is saying with regard to justification by faith squares with what

Paul says about the same subject.

And don't we have to consider the time during which Luther had these sentiments?

He had come to discover as a Roman Catholic month that he had been lied to about so

many things, and he was questioning everything.

I mean, isn't that really the case?

Sure, sure.

I think that all of us who have been in these very intense moments of either anger or sadness or

exultation, we sometimes will say things which are a bit much, which in our more sober and

level -headed moments, we wouldn't say.

So all that being said, even if Luther did say that, we've all said

things which we later regret, all said things which later in life we change our mind, and Luther is no

exception to that.

In fact, that's why I love my webmaster who edits all of my mistakes out of these programs.

I've had a lot of regrets in this show.

Yeah, so I mean, that is kind of a modern idea, too, that if someone has ever

said anything in the past which is wrong or disagreeable or whatever it might be, then that is a word

cancels out everything else that they said.

Well, we all know that's not the way that human interaction works.

Okay, Anonymous, you've also won a free copy of Limping with God.

Make sure we have your full mailing address and your full name through email

so that we can have cvbbs .com ship that.

Out to you.

We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who says,

Since you are talking about God using broken people, I hope you don't mind me

bringing up one broken aspect of Martin Luther which involved his anti

-Semitism.

There are people that I know, particularly Messianic Jews, who say that I'm insane for

viewing Luther in high regard because of the fact that he said such hateful things to the Jews, and the

Nazis even used some of his statements in propaganda later on.

How do you defend Luther in the midst of this?

Well, I don't.

To be blunt, to piggyback on what I was saying earlier, people

say a lot of untrue things about their lifetime, a lot of unfair things, and sometimes we use quite

vehement language, which can be then also used by others in order to perpetrate

evil on people.

And it certainly is true that Luther has been used, Luther's words have been used in that sort of way.

I would simply urge us all, it doesn't matter if we're talking about Martin Luther, if we're talking about the Founding Fathers of the United States, if

we're talking about anybody who is separated from our day and time, to put

yourself in their time, in their place, in their culture, in their perspective, and realize that chances

are they're not the only ones saying things like this.

It's not in any way to excuse what they did or what they said.

It is to, I guess, to understand it in the time in which it was said, and

in that way to realize, okay, this is what prompted that.

And that saves us from being kind of this generation that stands in judgment on all prior generations as if

we have a sort of moral superiority to those people.

I guarantee you, if our Lord doesn't return in two more centuries, people are going to be looking back at the things we said and did

and saying, how in the world could they have done that or said that?

That's just, that's the way the history works.

Now I have heard, in defense of Luther without defending the horrible

statements of his against the Jews, I have heard that, number one, he was never

referring to anyone's ethnicity like the Nazis were.

The Nazis could not care less if you were a genuine

convert to Christianity.

If you were of Jewish ethnicity.

If they found out, and they did search high and low for people who had become Christians but

who had Jewish ethnicity in their background, they would send you right off to the camp.

They didn't care if you had a strong faith in Christ.

And Luther had no connection to that way of thinking.

And the other thing that I was, I heard in his defense was that

this came after the huge letdown, to put it mildly,

of his confidence that the Reformation would bring about the mass conversion of Jews to

Christianity.

And when that failed, and when rabbis were actually writing nasty tracts against him,

he said inflammatory and horrible things.

And I also heard, which I don't know if it has been verified, that he eventually repented of that.

But do you have any comments on those things that I've said?

No, certainly not the last thing.

It's not a subject that I'm well versed in.

But the first thing that you pointed out, this is not a matter of ethnicity, but this is a matter of practices in particular to which he

objected and the opposition he was facing from them.

And yeah, that makes perfect sense.

It makes historical sense.

And it makes human sense that that is the way that a person will often react when he is opposed or

gravely disappointed over something.

Well, we are out of time.

I loved every minute of our interview, Chad.

I look forward to your return if you agree with my enthusiasm over our interview.

I want to remind our listeners that the website where you can find out more about Chad Byrd is 1517

.org.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.