Change

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the saints. Before we dig into our topic, we humbly ask you to rate, review, and share the podcast.

Thank you.

I'm Dylan Hamilton, and with me are.

Michael Derham.

David Kassin.

And Andrew Hudson.

How Quickly Should Churches Change?

This episode is a bit personal for me because we're going to be entertaining my question today. My question has to do with change within a church. How quickly or how slowly should we want change? Maybe what kind of changes should we desire in a church?

But more specifically, we were talking off air beforehand. When we see something that we want changed within our church, within our local body, and we have to consider our fellow believers, our fellow brothers and sisters around us, and we know that this change might be good for them, we might be right that this change needs to happen.

My question is, if we have a desire for change, how quickly should we expect it to happen? And I know this may be a gradation as far as the subject. If we're preaching heresies about the Trinity, that needs to stop today.

But if we're talking about changes that are in minutia, maybe like a tertiary issue, we might think of these things in the more long-term where we won't see the changes, but we can help our sons, and we may be able to help our grandchildren within that church affect those changes.

The reason I ask this question is the context is in my short time as a Christian, come across many people who may rightly see things that need to be changed within a local body. So I'm not going to say they're wrong.

What I'm going to say is, the way that they want to go about it might be a little hasty. Even though the zeal is good, the zeal is right, but for tertiary things to have preeminence over the good things that are happening in a church, I find to be a little icky when I hear that type of stuff.

Especially when it is being put forward as a major critique of a local body. Like something is sickly wrong with them if they've got this tertiary issue. Whereas they may be a very unified body, but they're being made new, they're being made like Christ, and they are growing together as a body.

Those types of things have started to, I've started to recognize them when I hear people talking about change. And when I hear them talk about change as well, it's usually paired with a comment like, well, I wouldn't worship there because these things need to change first.

Or I don't want to submit for memberships classes because these things need to change first. Whereas they're kind of put forward as prerequisites for you joining a church at all. And sometimes I think those excuses are not the real issue at hand.

I think there's layers back behind them, but they're the things that they're putting forward. So to answer that type of a question as to when we see change that may rightly need to be employed, how are we going to go about it?

What type of view are we trying to take, long or short-term views? And just general counsel when it comes to change within a church. And I know this is a very broad question because this would go a number of different ways with a number of different issues.

But I'd like general principles because I don't hear a lot about that when somebody talks about wanting change in a church.

Structural Change, Personal Preferences, and Doctrinal Concerns

When you talk about general principles, just at the baseline of this question, are you talking about structural, doctrinal issues? Like there are stories abound, cage-stage Calvinists wanting to reform a church, and then they just don't burn bridges.

They dynamite them with people on it. Oh, yeah, yeah. So are you talking about a doctrinal stuff or some personal or personal preferences? Like, you know, I think we need to, I think this church needs to have more psalm singing versus hymns.

You know, and it's something that's not necessarily right or wrong. I mean, I certainly have my personal preference, but versus the doctrinal, you know, okay, this is a serious issue in the church. Which direction are you coming from on this question?

A majority of the time when I hear this put forward, it's usually on, like I said, tertiary things. We were talking off-air beforehand. It may be like serving communion instead of once a quarter every Sunday instead of having just psalms.

Have a particular type of music or maybe a better-produced music or

The Bible version from the pulpit has to be a specific one that you happen to like and say, yeah.

Correct.

Like King James Version?

Something like that. Or even something that may be like, it's not a structural issue, but it's the people in the places of the structure that they want changed. Like, hey, you guys have plural eldership, but you need more elders or you need less elders.

Like something like that where it's like, or you need better elders. When I hear these types of things, and like I said, I'm not going to downplay the critique necessarily because it may be true, but using it as an excuse not to join, using an excuse not to maybe be the change you want to see in your church, or using it as an excuse to shake the dust off your feet and move elsewhere, these are kind of the issues that I have encountered.

And I'm wondering

Like straining gnats?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely straining gnats.

That's a good illustration. Jesus had a good illustration there, straining gnats and swallowing a camel. And how many gnats on a camel? I always wonder that, you know.

Lots of gnats on a camel.

I love that illustration. It's one of the funnier ones. So thinking about change in a church, I've only pastored two churches, but been, let's see here, I don't know how many churches I've been a member of.

You know, growing up, my dad pastored several churches and he was in the ministry for over 40 years. And resistance to change is kind of a tradition, pun intended, in smaller Baptist churches. And so there's a sense I would say within, just from my own extended experience through my dad's own pastoral ministry and just observing that and watching that and learning from that, is that small churches have a sense of, we do need something new, we need something different, we need something better.

Because if we don't, then we're going to die out. And we're not going, our kids don't wanna keep coming, something's wrong, we need to get a new pastor in here. And usually that's been the sense. It's the easiest thing to change and there's always a little bump of excitement when the new guy comes in.

And there's also a little bit of excitement when you kick the old guy out. I mean, you get high attendance Wednesday night business meetings when you get close to kicking him out. And then you get high attendance Sunday mornings when the new guy comes in.

So it helps with attendance, pastor changes, and there's a sense that if we could just get the right dynamic guy in here, then we're gonna be okay. And there's a lot of pressure, but no, we're not going to change any of our programs or any of our expectations or any of our structures because certainly that's not the problem.

The problem was the last guy, we got rid of him. Now that's a generalization, but I,.

There's a whole lot

Are you talking about the presidency right now?

Oh, I'm sorry, yeah.

Yeah, I like that. Kick that bum out when you need someone else.

I'm talking about a microcosm of human nature called the small Baptist church. And so there's a kind of a focus on the man, right? And so you were talking about, maybe there are others who think about the liturgy.

Restlessness, Church Shopping, and the Pace of Sanctification

Yeah, so I'm actually, when I'm saying this, it's coming from many who are like maybe a 1689 or some flavor of reformed background. So they're not necessarily worried about the man, at least that's not what they're saying.

They may actually have a love for the way that everything's set up in some cases, but maybe the right personnel aren't in the right places. Or like we did say, some things are structural like Lord's Supper every Sunday or the way the liturgy is brought forth.

So it's always been interesting to me to discover why these things, whatever they are, are so important. And the folks that you're thinking about and have familiarity with are kind of a subset of a larger group of people who when they come to a church, they're looking for signs that this is the right place to be and they're looking for those signals that okay, this is a healthy, good, solid church.

But if there are particulars that they just can't, they don't believe that they can live without or they think that if this particular is absent, I think this is such an important ingredient that if this is missing, the only future of this church is going to be downhill.

Or we're never going to grow in spirituality, we're never gonna grow in true fidelity to Christ, we're just never gonna mature until we have this particular ingredient put into place or I have a strong sense that this is looming very near on the horizon that this is going to be brought in.

And I kind of holding on to, like we have to have communion every week and as soon as that happens, then it has to be wine and grape juice and the bread has to be a certain thing, but then it has to only be wine.

And after that it's, well, we need to have one loaf. Yeah, one loaf, one loaf, one cup. And then we need Psalms as part of our repertoire of singing but then after we get the Psalms in, really it should be mostly Psalms and then it should only be Psalms.

And what are we doing with these musical instruments? There's no end.

This sounds like the Campbellite movements.

Yeah, there's no end to the particularities, there's just no end to that. But there is a sense in which, and I'm burdened for folks who go through this arc because there's a sense in which we need to please the Lord.

And if we allow X, Y, or Z to remain, we're not pleasing the Lord and we only can please the Lord if we put these other things in their place and there's a sense in which I am, I can't be a part of this church long-term or stay here because if I do, Jesus is going to be so upset with us for failing to worship properly and what they sense is the eminence of condemnation.

And I can't stay here because this is unbiblical worship and it is angering God and I will not be a part of it, okay? And genuinely broken about it and this is why they're so zealous, often zealous. You don't have this and you don't have this, don't you understand the implications of that?

Well, these are people who take worship seriously and you kind of want to empathize with them. I mean, I'd rather have, it'd be hot or cold, but that person's hot, that person is on fire and they need some wisdom and probably a big leash and jerk them back, but man, those kind of people are intoxicating.

They are so much fun to be around for a short time.

So what I'm hearing from someone like that and sometimes it's not about the reform or die mindset, okay, sometimes it is. And you talk about the reformed program, you think you know what reformed is, there's always a bigger art reform behind it.

Absolutely.

There's no, I mean, until we are actually going to, the maximum way to be reformed is to invent a time machine.

And go back to the original writers.

Yes, and if you invent a time machine that goes back to the 1600s, there's a bigger art behind that you've got to go back to the 1500s. So there's just no end to that. So what I'm hearing though is a different kind of art, I'm hearing restless.

Right, I mean, that's sort of what I'm getting at. That's the critique and it's, like I said, it is very a part of what I see as a new American trend to be transient and I think, again, we talked about that off air, where hopping from place to place is the norm for us.

We don't look at people in a church body and think that they're, them and their descendants, their name is going to be here for hundreds of years. We don't see that. Other places in the world, most of human history up until 15 minutes ago, they would look at their church congregation and they would say, that last name is going to be here 1500 years from now and they were probably right and that probably proved itself true.

But today, we think that the norm is to hop from church to church until we get the exact right thing instead of honoring Christ with the people he's placed us in front of and loving his people there where we're at rather than, like, church shopping is really weird to me.

So there's a sense in which, since there's availability everywhere, there's a sense in which I've got to find the right place to be. Or if I'm going to stay here, then I'm going to be tirelessly advocating for change and expressing just how displeasing we are to God until we make these changes and I want to stir everyone up to make these changes because I believe that they're going to be very, very good for our church.

And if some people get upset, it's because they're not spiritual enough and they need to grow and they need to repent of their selfishness and pride because they're the ones keeping us from pleasing Christ.

So basically, it's all very much American-style dating. I'm going to try out everybody or the young lady says, hey, there's a project.

Hmm.

Okay?

And it's very much this American culture of transience, like you're saying. So what kind of expectations are we to have about change in a church? Obviously, there are some situations where a church is so far out of bounds that, but in general, rather than focusing in on particulars, we need to be able to have a view from the scriptures to inform our expectations of change.

And number one, being restless, that is not a sign of being spiritual.

Or mature, right?

Or mature. The spiritual and the mature rest in Christ. They are at rest in Him. They do not live in constant pinging condemnation because they failed to worship in just the right manner. They're not berating themselves and beating themselves up because they belong to a church that doesn't have the exact framework that they think actually pleases Christ.

They are resting in Christ and therefore they are free to labor with Him at a pace that is loving and true and good. And so what are the expectations? Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is like what? It is like a mustard seed planted in the field, that little garden that you have in front of your house and it grows.

How fast does a plant grow? Not very fast. And it grows. And this mustard seed's pretty surprising because it becomes a tree. Whoever would have thought that this little plant, this little seed, the smallest of the seeds, becomes a little plant in the garden and never was supposed to become a tree but then it becomes a tree and all the nations, the birds, they all come and nest in the branches.

Surprise, but over time, look what happens. And over time, by the way, have you noticed how Christ has grown His church over time?

Love, Patience, and Organic Growth in the Body

Yeah, I mean, I've been just staring a hole through my screen looking at Ephesians chapter four and I'm just thinking about like, this is, it's His work that He does to us. When I think about just, when I read the passage, in verse 15, it says instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself who is the head.

And so the motivation behind this for a true brother or sister in Christ, it's about love. Is there a way that this love can be made manifest as love instead of as complaints? Like what's the proper way?

First Corinthians 13, right?

Right.

I mean, there's a great definition. I like the way that Brother Ken.

Is it patient?

Yeah, other than Brother Ken does it, as he's counseling, he's like, just put your name right there. Everywhere it says love, put your name there. And then consider whether or not that statement is true of how you're treating so-and-so, of how you're relating to so-and-so.

And then you'll know whether or not you're actually loving them or not. Michael is patient, Michael is kind. Michael is not, you see, not rude.

All the way.

Belling to bear, all things.

Just personalize that, and okay, is that, are you being loving to this person? Are you relating to this person in a loving way?

I mean, then we will come to the fullness of stature in Christ.

Yeah. So there's a sense in which, okay, we have organic metaphors, don't we? You have organic metaphors, Matthew 13, even the putting the leaven in the lump of dough, which is a very large lump of dough when you actually do the measurement.

I mean, I think this lady wanted to, she needed probably 10 times the size of her normal oven to bake this bread. But over time, this lump of dough probably just moved them all out of the house. It was getting so big.

But over time, and there's a sense in which this organic growth and change occurs in a way that is not a process that, oh, by the way, it's not a process that you're actually in charge of, by the way.

A lot of folks are restless because they want to be the good shepherd. They want to be the good shepherd of the church. They want to be the good shepherd of themselves. I shepherd me, right? And there's a lot of restlessness in that.

But with Ephesians 4, interesting that he's followed up by Ephesians 5, in which Christ as the husband is washing his bride with the water of his word. And that takes time. That takes time. And there is a, I was taught a long time ago, one of the most fundamental things for church health was a long-suffering, patient ministry of the word.

And that doing this, looking unto Christ, then he'll have his way by the power of his spirit in his bride, and over time, there's going to be change, but it's not going to be something that, some sort of really neat strategy that you came up with and then implemented, some sort of management tool.

Now, a management organization and so on can be helpful, but that doesn't grow the vine. The vine grows by the life of Christ, by the graces that he has identified, primarily by the ministry of his word, through his spirit.

And the vine grows, and then elders and deacons develop trellis to support the vine so we don't get all tangled up on each other. And we're more productive if we have biblical, biblically sound trellis supporting the vine.

That's great. And that's what we try to do. But when it comes down to it, it's personal. It's loving other people and being patient with them. Paul says to Timothy, preach the word, in season and out of season.

Preach the word with all long-suffering. Right, so this ministry of the word where Christ is washing his bride with the water of his word, sanctifying her through the ministers that he gives to the church, Ephesians 4, they're to do it with all long-suffering.

That sounds to me like that's a long-term expectation when we're thinking about how fast should we expect people to change and how fast we should see a church shift. But this is the attraction of church planting.

Church Planting, Established Churches, and the Problem of Restless Expectations

Okay, the attraction of church planting is we don't have time to wait. We don't have time to develop lots of relationships. We don't have time to see the old aircraft carrier make the turn. We need the

Reset button.

Yeah, we need the skiff. We need the torpedo patrol boat. We need to be zip, zip, zip, let's go. And you can, you really can. But then there's so much, it's like, well, I'm so glad we don't have to worry about all of these so-called problems when maybe that's actually a whole part of the point that you have a multi-generational, very wide kind of group of people and you're all working together, loving one another in Christ, growing up in Him and learning Him, and you are gonna be different than other churches.

Yeah, church plant something new doesn't have that depth of character. Not that it's bad. I mean, a church plant is not necessarily bad. Every church body's gotta start somewhere, but there is a danger there.

There is something that says, look, let's be wise about this. This church body that has been together generationally for a long time, and we're talking a church body that's healthy, preaches the word, wants to be more like Christ.

Yeah, it does take a while to turn that aircraft carrier, and it's a lot easier when you have a bunch of young people, young families who are fiery and are passionate and are ready to make quick, nimble changes, but it lacks something.

There's that wisdom that comes with the ages. Okay, hold on a second. Just let's take it slow. I'm not saying you're wrong. Let's kind of take it slow that an older congregation can provide.

And I've been very blessed to be a part of churches with deeper histories. Now, some churches that don't have a deeper history can have some particular challenges, and those will show up in different ways.

But whether you got a church plant that is struggling in ways that an established church is not or an established church that has some holdups that a church plant doesn't have, it's not gonna solve anything by you hopping around trying to find that perfect fit.

No, because you're still dealing with people. And when I hear a lot of times people talking about problems the equation there is the people are the problem, right?

Yes, that's what they're saying.

That is whether they're saying whether they wanna admit that or not, that's what I do here. And what we're talking about between a church plant, which traditionally in the US is younger families, younger people, we're talking about seedlings versus like the mighty oak over here.

The seedling's gonna be, it's gonna struggle. It's gonna have its own struggles, whereas the mighty oak has some other struggles that it's gotta deal with. It's switching out one set of problems for another, right?

That's really what you're doing when you're trying to hit the reset button and do the church plant thing. And you think you're gonna be able to like put it in the right soil, give it the right position for the right amount of sunlight.

And you're gonna have the right amount of rain because it's in the right climate now. And you're gonna make sure there's not like any weird noises. You're gonna have the right music playing to it so it has a chance to grow correctly.

That's what is usually happening with these attractions to church plants, especially the ones that are done haphazardly like that.

Dissatisfaction, Pessimism, and the Need for Shepherding

And I think one of the things that greatly burdens me, and I've seen this, is sometimes it's not even a sense of particular convictions about church polity or liturgy or even doctrine. It's when I grew up, I was part of a church that left me with this rosy feeling and memory.

And this was the height of all church experience. And they just keep looking for that and looking for that. Or maybe they never had that experience, but they believe it's out there. And they just keep on trying.

And what it is, ultimately in their restlessness, in their dissatisfaction, that is what needs to be addressed. You can have a church full of people who want to love you and be for you and to relate to you and to spend time with you and pray for you.

And you can say, I feel all alone. Well, why? Because maybe you don't come because people don't like me. Well, they're trying to like you, they're trying to love you, or you have expectations that nobody, nobody can ever meet.

So you're always disappointed with everybody. These are the things, these are like issues that you need shepherding for. These are issues that you need accountability for, but you're never going to get it if you keep on hopping.

Yeah, because it's the desires of one's own heart that need changing and not necessarily, and that's how it gets rationalized a lot of times, is it's like, well, it's this or this or this issue. But really the problem is with your own self and the way that you want to be welcomed or the way that you want to feel on any particular Sunday.

And if something's off one Sunday, that's it, we're out.

Yeah, something's wrong.

Yeah.

We've grieved the spirit. But there is a concern that a lot of folks have. If there's an expectation that, again, this comes back to our eschatology, and also comes back into your, whether or not you think Jesus is doing a good job shepherding, okay, if the expectation is that things are going to go worse and worse, and not only you expect the government to get worse and worse until it's very much just the glove with the beast's hand inside and so don't get involved at all, but there's also an expectation that comes alongside with a pessimistic eschatology that says churches will become more and more corrupt.

Exactly, apostate churches.

Yes.

And that is, and the flow of churches is going to go from bad to worse, and we're always sitting there just waiting for something to sound just a little bit off or wrong, and like, there it is, there it is.

They're going liberal, they're going woke, they're going soft, they're going squish, and as soon as they hear something, then there's like, yep, they're slipping, right? And this has been only amplified by, and otherwise sometimes helpful in appropriate ways, discernment ministries online.

Right.

Right, sometimes it's helpful to get the heads up about something, that's kind of helpful, but the cultivation of all these expectations that you have to have all of these factors in play before I can be a part of your church, where does that come from?

That makes you the good shepherd.

Starting Change the Right Way

So we're talking about change in the church and the desire for it. Now on one hand, and we've discussed that these kinds of things do take time, you're dealing with people, especially with a larger congregation or multi-generational congregation, good change does take time, use the aircraft carrier analogy, and what we see in the New Testament, the examples that are set down where Christ is washing his bride, these things just, maturity takes time.

It's in the word, it just takes time to grow that direction. What do you say to the person who says, look, this is something that does need to change. Now I'm willing to put in the work, I'm not gonna be shopping for a new church, I am willing to stay here for a generation, and in fact, my son will take the baton from me.

So what do you tell that person who has the right attitude, he knows where the change comes from, it's Christ, we are the ones who are doing his work, we are listening and submitting to what the word says and becoming more Christ-like, he is doing that in us, and we're being surrounded by people who have that same desire, and we have people who want to serve in this church and build it up for generation after generation, how do you tell them to start?

First of all, depending what the issue is, let's say they're concerned about music, and usually it'll be coming from a position of not knowing, of being on the outside, observing, and having been a part of it.

What I'll do first of all, is I will try to bring them into the conversation, the flow of what has been happening, things that they probably don't know, the context of where we've come from, where we are now, showing a trajectory of where we're heading, and showing them the biblical reasons why we're doing it, this is why we're heading this way, because we are convicted by the scriptures here, here, and here, and if they're concerned about those issues, then they're very aware of those same passages, and it's like, here's how we're working towards this, this is the path that we are on currently, and I hear you're concerned about this, and this over here, I would love to hear more about your research, and what you're looking at there, could you send me some of that?

And then very often I'll find that it wasn't very much at all, or maybe there was a whole lot, but there's probably gonna end up being fair amount of agreement, the question is about patience and timing and so on, but if they know, here's where we were 10 years ago, here's where we are today, here's how things are moving, this is the direction we're going, that helps, that helps, like if someone's concerned about the Lord's Supper, here's context, under our definitive historical pastor, Harry Boydston, they had communion once a year.

Nisan 14th?

Yeah.

Quarto Decimens.

Yes, well they had it once a year, and now we have it 12 times a year, okay? So you can kind of tell the trajectory we're on.

12X.

Yeah, we're.

Parabolic.

Yeah, how about that?

Gradually, then suddenly.

And of course, we're still learning about these things, and we're still growing in these ways, here's what we're doing. Just bringing somebody in, a lot of the times, part of the concern is, I feel guilty because I'm not doing anything about this issue, and then when they find out, oh, there's lots of people here that are thinking about that issue and working on it, why don't you come alongside of us and help us pray about this, and maybe you can share some of your research with us, maybe you can share some of your concerns with us, and we can talk about that together.

Why don't you join us as we're walking that way anyway?

Right, so it's not adversarially, it's togetherly.

Yes, exactly. And to me, that's usually people who have certain types of concerns, usually when you show them, hey, this is where we've been, this is where we are, so you can kind of see the trajectory we're going, we would love to have you help pray about this and participate with us in what God is doing.

I have firm confidence that Christ is going to be sanctifying us in this regard, and that we are not the same church that we were when I got here. I don't even believe the same things I believed when I first got here.

That always makes me a little nervous. Well, because I didn't have it all figured out. Like, I didn't know. I was just in my 30s. What do you know when you're in your 30s?

Nothing.

Can't confirm.

Don't we really want people to be conformed to the image of Christ? Why would we not expect the pastor to also be undergoing the same process of sanctification?

So, now, sometimes it's not enough, and it may be because of such a very, what I would say is probably an overprivileged conviction in which they are very, very restless until they have this thing as part of their, and I was like, well, again, I can't frighten all of the sheep for the sake of this one concern that you have.

Right.

But I would hope that you would see that we're heading the right direction. If we're not heading fast enough for you, it's like, brother or sister, I hope you know we love you, but we just can't move that fast.

We are trying to obey Christ. This is what we're doing. So it's not like we're saying, we're fine. Leave us alone. We're not saying that. But then for some folks, it's just a matter of they are dissatisfied and the very fact, this is a strange thing, but the very fact that they know that this is not right and you can't get it right, the very fact that they are in that position, that is so precious to their identity that they hold on to that posture no matter where they're at.

They are always more holy, more worshipful, more spiritually mature. They know more than the elders. They're more committed to Jesus than everybody else. And so everyone else is continually failing. So they're continually moving and they have a ministry of superiority and that is so precious to their identity that until they are crucified with Christ and come in humbly to the kingdom, they're just never gonna be at home.

They're never gonna be at rest among God's people. And that is my deepest concern. And that is something I've encountered more than once in my pastoral ministry.

In that case too, what we're talking about, when we want change, we want to honor Christ when we're changing. The changes are because the Lord is like this and so we should change accordingly. But we're also talking about loving the saints that he's given us to be around, loving the brethren, doing it correctly and bringing them in the same fashion to these positions as we ourselves came and doing it patiently even if it is like you said, I'm gonna die and my son's gonna take up the mantle for this.

But if you're willing to move on to hold on to the superiority, the one thing that you should have, a love for the brethren, you're not sitting down in a place and putting roots somewhere to actually do that.

You're not there to actually love them. You're not in any place long enough to love a group of saints, are you?