Unveiling the New Age Movement with Doreen Virtue

Can you show me because we're gonna use some hermeneutics. Can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual. Because again, I understand you're appealing again.

Sure. Wait a minute, I thought I was gonna get to have a talk. You you asked a question.

There you go, I will mute you because it's not your show. You asked a question I'm gonna give you the answer. Jet. Genesis 6 for the word Olam is used referring to those who are of old Deuteronomy, I'll get just rattle off all the ones where it's used not referring to perpetual Genesis 6 for Deuteronomy 32 7 Joshua 24 to 1st Samuel 27 8 Job 22 15 Psalm 247 24 9 25 6 41 13 77 9 90 verse 2 103 verse 17 106 verse 48 119 52 1 feet of 43 3rd verse 3 Proverbs 8 23 Proverbs 22 28 Proverbs 23 10 and Ecclesiastes 110.

Should I go on for more?

Blah blah blah blah blah.

To answer your questions. Your host. From striving for eternity ministries.

Blah blah blah blah blah that one always cracks me up. That was his most intelligent response to the fact that Scripture did not agree with anything that he was spewing. That was a fun one. Oh, there's many years ago That was with RL Soulsburg on his book Torah ism, which was answering kind of Hebrew roots movement.

That was a long time ago. We gotta get him back on. He's got a new book out. So I should do that and he got a debate actually we're someone who I can't seem to debate. The guy wanted to was very excited, but then Found out my debates and didn't want to.

I guess that was rabbi Tovia singer, but welcome to apologetics live. We should have started off that way. I am your host Andrew rap report. We're here to answer any question that you have about God and the Bible.

In fact I make the bold claim to say that I Can answer any question that you have about God and the Bible and if you doubt that? Well, my challenge to you is to come on in and give me your hardest question whatever you think I just can't possibly answer give that to me and We are gonna see and if you give me some really really hard.

I may actually say I don't know and I also believe that's a perfectly good answer. So if I answer with that I have answered your question. All right. We're gonna be talking tonight about the New Age movement with someone that I've just recently been able to get to know.

I was blessed with the privilege of being on her show and we Been I was supposed to okay. I'm gonna just I'm gonna bring her in. It's Doreen virtue, and I I'm I think I told you this Doreen, but I How when was it you did the interview with Justin Peters.

How long ago is that that would have been 2019. Yeah, cuz it was pre kovat. Yeah, that's right. So he he told me that I should have you on and I had in my to-do list since then. That I was to call you I Forget how we got hooked up.

I was like, all right, let's just talk and set this up.

Yeah, I think it had to do with the g3 conference or something oh.

So well during it's a I'm glad to have you in and for folks who don't know you don't know your background and I Want you to explain your background and like I had told you I didn't before you did that with Justin.

I didn't know anything about you and Really what got me into looking. Even looking up your background and trying to figure it out was you had Justin on and you had one of his haters Joshua Chavez, he goes by service Christy on YouTube and I Referred to him and well actually our entire evangelism team that met him in New York referred to him as the effeminate hairdresser.

Because he just came off very effeminate to all of us and he was well he managed a hairdresser hair salon and so When people can remember his name now, that's what he was referred to as. But he he he was going after Justin and it was interesting.

He took clips of your interview with Justin and because of what he did I went and watched your whole interview with Justin and Realized what he did was he was trying to claim that you were still in the New Age movement as if you're still believing in it still having dreams and things and Justin speaks against that stuff and and he was trying to say Justin went on your show and you're still believing this stuff and and You were like you were talking about stuff.

You had believed and it was years ago and Then he was taking clips of stuff that wasn't from there. You know from the that interview is really very creative editing he did we'll say. But if you listen to the whole interview in context what he said, yeah, it wasn't wasn't accurate.

But so that was that was where I first heard of you and heard a little bit of your background. But you're you may be new to to my audience. And so I'll first let give you an opportunity to share your background.

And then how did you come to know Christ?

Thank you for having me on this program and hello everybody. It's an honor to be here and I To be a born-again Evangelical Christian is a miracle. It definitely wasn't on my life list. It was all God a hundred percent our sovereign merciful God who saved me out of a lifetime of deception.

I was raised in a as a fourth-generation Christian scientist, which is neo Gnosticism and just heretical beliefs about Christ as a mortal man a created being who was a Role model for us and in my mom was basically the preacher of our church they call it a reader at Christian Science, but this is I grew up just so liberal and Heretical and I was told we were Christian because we were going to church twice a week.

I had a King James Bible we read from every day out of context and I didn't understand the old Elizabethan Language very well. And then from there, I just grew up and became a psychotherapist. I got a BA and an MA in psychology from Chapman University and I was doing psychotherapy and I wrote a bunch of Psychology books and then I was invited to become a speaker With the whole life Expo, which was this roving band of mind-body-spirit teachers who went to convention centers around North America and Gave inspirational talks and at that point I was still I was a Christian scientist.

But in my off time when I wasn't speaking I would go to Visit the booths they had on the convention room floor that were all new age and they they were like nothing I'd ever seen before there was copper brass pyramids you'd put on your head and and Chakra clearing and tie-dye this and that and and yoga and Reiki and and and I was just really curious about it.

So I started researching and talking to these folks and learning and taking classes and and the more that I would learn The more I would then share it with others and pretty soon. I was teaching this new age Material to others and I was using it myself.

So I became a Reiki master. I was a psychic I was well known for these cards that had angel images on them very similar to to row cards. And and so by the time that God saved me I was at the peak of my career, which I think is really Amazing because if I was going down in my career people could rightly say oh, she just she's a has-been She wants attention, but I was at the very peak of my new age career.

I at that point was One of the top new age teachers according to the Watkins list that came out every year and the most influential top ten most influential new age teachers and I was touring with all the New age teachers, you know the Deepak Chopra Wayne Dyer Louise.

Hey. All the famous psychics. They were my friends. We were touring all over the world together first class I was similar to Kosti Hinn's testimony where it was all limousines and first-class penthouse suites.

And you know just the living the life of like a rock star. But still thinking I was a Christian for my Christian science days still thinking that I was following Jesus and I had no idea until I finally read the Bible that I was I Was breaking God's commandments, but even more when I when I read Deuteronomy 18 I realized that I was a detestable abomination to God for practicing divination mediumship and interpreting omens and that was the moment that broke me and I was finally repentant and Knew that I was a just wretched sinner and I just prayed to God for Forgiveness and that Jesus would take over my life as my Lord and Savior.

That was late 2017 September 2017 I if I was already a public figure I was on All the time I was on YouTube and Facebook and everything and I'd written all these books and cards in the New Age. And so I I made the decision against some Discipling I should I should have gone away for three years.

It's like Paul to Arabia but I stayed in the public eye and I had super bad theology as one might expect coming out of a lifetime of Deception like that I'd also I'd been having visions my whole life and I'd had this one vision before I was saved I thought was Jesus and and of course, it's not and it just took a while for me to sort through.

I ended up going to seminary so I could learn theology the right way and I Went for two and a half years full-time to Western Seminary where I got a master's degree in biblical and theological studies.

With highest honors, which was a miracle to me because if I had gone the seminary before I was saved with my old heart I would have got straight F's. But just God revealed the gospel to me and I was so hungry I still am for his word that I just drank up seminary and just oh, it was like going to a feast and So poured myself into all these papers you have to do in seminary and learning and and just To learn how to rightly divide God's Word and also to get feedback from my professors.

Do it do I am I understanding this correctly? And and so here I am just warning people about New Age deception because after I was saved I naively thought that all churches would be pious and just biblical.

Silly me and and I was so shocked to see that so many of the churches were Identical to the mind-body-spirit festival world that I had just come out of. Where instead of calling these folks psychics on stage they called them prophets.

But they were nothing like the biblical prophets who call people to repentance. They were like the psychics saying Oh, here's your soulmate you get a promotion at work. You're they would throw in a bite this Bible verse for master.

You know, you're born for such a time as this just to they stroke people's egos. That's what psychics do and So I've just been ever since then warning people that the New Age it cannot blend with Christianity.

It's it's just it's like drinking of the cup of demons and then drinking of the cup of the Lord. You can't blend the two because New Age is all about glorifying yourself. It's all about positive affirmations.

And I'm perfect whole and complete where Christianity is a hundred percent about glorifying God. So this polar opposites can never be blended ever.

So did you have Opportunities, I mean you you're with the crock choper and these others. Did you have opportunities after you get saved to share the gospel with them?

I was I was pretty much shunned and Listed yeah. Yeah right away. I'm pretty sure my ex-publisher who fired me immediately I'm pretty sure that I would they were given a do not talk with her clause. But every now and then I hear from a New Age teacher who says to me Jesus is calling me too.

And so of course, I will pray for them and share the gospel and encourage them but it's you know, this is something that when you are successful as a New Ager or Anything like a celebrity that anything ungodly and the devil pays a lot of money to be ungodly to to leave that whole lifestyle is It it's it is all God that gives you the strength to do that.

Because I had employees I had to let go of my Family, a lot of them are still New Age and won't talk to me. My friends won't talk to me. I was laughed at by both New Agers and Christians when I first came out the New Agers laughed at me.

Because I'm now talking about this, you know the patriarch. They they think it's all patriarchal. They have a lot of arguments why Christianity can't be true and and then the Christians were laughing at me because my theology I was a baby Christian, you know just I shouldn't have been in the public eye.

And so I didn't fit in there anywhere in the beginning. The only people who friended me in the beginning were some hyper charismatics who were into Smith Wigglesworth Work and I am just so grateful to God to pointing me away from that.

Yeah, no, you know, it's interesting because we we think of the the folks that are involved in New Age and the spiritualism as being so tolerant and loving toward others. And yet just because you Had a change in your belief system.

They didn't want to talk to you.

They didn't want to talk to me and I got hate mail every day I'd get. Because I get all my mail on Instagram direct messages and I would get maybe five to ten hate letters a day on Instagram in the beginning just cussing me out from the love and light community that the day before it said that I was a goddess that God had sent me into their life because my work was comforting them.

They were so angry with me. It was really scary in the beginning and and then plus our whole life was disrupted. I'd gotten fired and so we had to give back this ranch in Hawaii that we were buying From this couple and we had to move and I had my parents that I'd been elderly parents.

I cared for them for seven years. So we had to scramble and find a place that would be good for them. And and so just it was like going to a different planet or different country for a while. And and everyone's speaking Christian ease.

I don't know that language. I know New Age language. Christians don't know it and I'm going to church in tie-dye goddess gowns, you know, my old New Age clothes. So it was so foreign to come out of all that and to be in this new culture, of course now I've I Wouldn't trade it for anything and praise the Lord.

I've got a solid church that I'm under a really solid pastor and I've got amazing Sisters in Christ who've come around me and they know my story and they still love me. I've been making Christian friends and it's such a blessing to go to the g3 conference recently in Atlanta.

Andrew that was so amazing because I used to speak in that Convention Center. I used to be on that stage as a heretic and go back there and to be receiving and Saturated in God's Word and in the worship music with we had 8 ,000 people.

They're all singing these hymns that I now know I wouldn't have known him a few years before. It was it was so heavenly to go in that atmosphere. I just loved it.

Yeah, that I can. I can occur agree with both they when I became a Christian. Yeah the Christian ease. Yeah, I did not. I still remember the first time for a Resurrection Sunday that someone walked up to me.

You know because they if you're raised in a Christian Church, you know Resurrection Sunday. You know, someone says he is risen and you're supposed to respond he is risen indeed and. So someone walked up to me, you know, he is risen and I went yes he has.

Like no, you're supposed to say this. I'm like, why am I supposed to say that? Cuz that's what you're supposed to say. But why am I supposed to say? I'd have feel like oh you need a Christmas tree and I've to this day said I.

You know I'll be glad to get a Christmas tree. Someone can give me a good reason why I need a Christmas tree other than the fact that they grew up with one. I Didn't grow up with a Christmas tree. I grew up with a menorah, you know, I think you need light eight candles or eight days.

Hebrew, you know, it's like. So much of it. We have language. We don't think of.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but my husband and I had been Episcopalians before we were saved. It's a long story, but just in brief God started calling me out of the new age in 2015 and I heard an Alistair Begg sermon on 2nd Timothy 4 at the end times people will want their itching ears tickled by false teachers and then he went on to describe a false teacher and it was like he Was describing me and so I I said to my husband, you know, there's some yeah God convicted me with that Alistair Begg sermon in 2015.

So I said to my husband, you know I think we need to start going to a regular church because we'd been going to new age churches and he's like, okay He was raised Methodist and Back when it before it's like it is now.

So we started to go to different churches and We were living in Hawaii and the churches there are super liberal and they have the Hawaiian culture mixed in with Christianity. So you've got prayers to the Hawaiian gods and goddesses and such and anyway, so we ended up in Episcopalian Church, which is Episcopalians are renowned for their hospitality and You know, we're Reformed Baptist now, I don't think I could have gone from New Age to Reformed Baptist.

Immediately, I think it would have whiplash. So the Episcopalian was a nice coast into Reformed Baptist. And and so they did that He is risen. He is risen indeed and thanks be to God and this is the Word of God.

They did all those rituals there. So I knew a little bit of that from the Episcopalian time, but the When I when I was saved I Don't know. It was just like such culture shock to have all my former friends and some of my family stopped talking to me and to Learn how to trust in the Lord who I'd never know.

I didn't know him before I thought I knew Jesus. But I knew him the wrong way as the progressive Jesus that he's a wish granter and and he everything goes with this Jesus as long as you're positive and you don't hurt anyone and I Absolutely did not know God.

Christian science taught us that God was mind like an energy and that's what New Age teaches too that that God is source or the universe and so my first step when big one as a Christian was who is God and studying his attributes and.

And and just reading that whole Bible from front to finish and and I've been reading it every day ever since and then at night. We listened to a book of the Bible at night. And that's been really helpful by the way for spiritual warfare.

Which is something that a lot of people deal with for the first time consciously after they leave the New Age that all of a sudden these demons who were masquerading as angels of light when you were a New ager the demons are super restless and unhappy apparently that you've now left them for Jesus so the spiritual warfare was horrible in the beginning and I didn't know what to do.

So I got involved with deliverance ministry initially I didn't have discipleship to tell me that deliverance ministry is a scam. It's a waste of time and money and that Jesus delivered us on the cross Through his shed blood.

So and and I also didn't know that in the Bible is all the instruction we need for spiritual warfare. So I went to deliverance ministry and it would make things temporarily seem better. These people casting out demons from me.

But then it would get worse again. And so I'd go to the next deliverance ministry same thing and all the while these deliverance ministries are Aggressively pushing that you give them money donate their donations.

But it's like they're charging and the third man that I went to named Bob Larson. He I had an online session with him where he waves around this wooden cross in front of you on the screen and he's dressed in a priest garb and.

And that and that was expensive you had to pay up front for that. And so none of these things were working and. That's when I turned to Ephesians 6 10 through 18 to put on the armor of God and started listening to audios of the Bible every night and Mortify sin pray Resist the devil and he will flee it's all the instructions are there and it's free of charge and it works because it's biblical.

Yeah, so, you know we got some some comments here that let me see if I can get them up on screen. See, where did we put that? So some of these I'll encourage you and then got some questions in here for you as well.

So here's Kathy is saying I follow her meaning you obviously. To learn about the new age that crept into the church. She said I'm we're so so glad you're doing this show. Thank You Kathy. KT and Jesus.

Oh, no, that's a different question. I'll get it. So let me just answer that so I put up KT I could try to get Kevin on. I don't know if we're going to do any more. There wasn't there was a video or an audio that Kevin found for folks who don't know who Kevin is.

Kevin was on we did a Series with him. He was a deacon in a church that we discovered was a cult and so so there is a response audio that after we had done those series of shows that Basically he was Tony Miano was responding to some of the things we said and they were woefully Out of context so we talked about maybe doing one more show.

But it'd be good to have him on. Okay, Linda said Love my new sister in Christ had the privilege of meeting her at g3. I Linda great to see you sister. Yeah, and then we have Melissa who said I am very grateful for Doreen virtue and her ministry.

She is a precious sister in Christ.

No, that's so encouraging. Thank you.

We have a good guess who this person this next comment is from but we also know why we have to call him what we call him. Facebook user says no. Okay Facebook user is usually Mr. Hap's Addison and I'm gonna assume that's who it is from the context of this state of the comment here.

He says I met her at g3. We invited her over to Jeff's booth and took a picture. Love her testimony. So Hap's was working at Jeff's booth, but Hap's Addison who is a great brother. You'll remember him Doreen because he can't you'll never be able to forget him once you see him.

He's got the you know, long beard actually he and Jeff they kind of go with a real long beard and long hair. Oh, yeah. Yeah, real real both of them have that real like Southern kind of laid-back. Jeff does the Bible rebindings.

Hap's is is or happy he's called. But he he doesn't seem to ever want to follow the rules because if he if he did if he went to politics live Calm like we instruct him every single week. He would be able to put give permission to Facebook so we can see his name.

So we know that's you have. Even you know, even though Drew's not here. We know that's you. When we can to. All right. So here's here's a question for you that Was asked is where did the term Christian science originate from the devil?

It's not it's neither Christian nor scientific it was.

That's what I always use.

Mary Baker Eddie. She actually plagiarized Phineas Quimby who really yeah, and there was a lawsuit. Fascinating his troubling history of Phineas Quimby was a mesmerizer. They called it back then a hypnotist who went around doing shows of how he could somehow somehow heal people very much word of faith.

Somehow Kenneth Hagen is connected to him. I haven't got the complete link. Stephen Kozar knows the story though if you ever want to ask him. Okay, Phineas Quimby taught Mary Baker Eddie and then the founders of Unity Church and Divine Science Church and also, there's there's a lot of connections of a lot of False New Age teachers have a Christian science connection including Helen Shookman.

She was Jewish and somehow Christian science who channeled the heretical book called a course in miracles that was popularized by the former presidential candidate Marianne Williamson who I used to tour with and it's the Supposed channeled book from Jesus explaining what the Bible really means and almost every New Ager Reads this book, of course in miracles.

It was popularized by Oprah. So so Christian science is is absolutely a plagiarism of something that seems to work. It's like a lot of New Age and deceptive products. It seems to work. In fact, that's what I had interviewed Justin about was how come sometimes People go to a false healer and it seems like they really get healed and Justin said it's really nuanced that there's demons That can actually Create the situation that seems to be an injury or a sickness and then the demons leave the person to a false Teacher and then they leave the oppression so the person seems to have gotten a healing but really they've just no longer being spiritually oppressed and Then they get hooked into that false teacher, but that was so fascinating.

Yeah, and it originated as you said.

Mary Mary why just. And so she had and she I mean is it's kind of a mind over matter type of thing. There is it's. I remember reading on her deathbed. Even on her deathbed. She couldn't admit That she was dying because that would write us and do everything.

She she taught so she supposedly Her last words were tell my followers that I'm committing mental suicide.

Yeah, it's a nuts nuts. Oh theology, but I was steeped in I was raised in it. And so it's neo Gnostic in that they believe that Matter and the body do not really exist. It's an illusion. And and they also do not believe in Genesis 3 at all.

They think it's just a lie. And so there's no talk about the fall or crucifixion or sin or repentance or hell. It's all about cherry-picking. What they believe are the you know, the positive and air quotes.

Say it's talk that Jesus did about healing and that's all they focus on and they think that Jesus was giving us the key. To learn how we can heal and you're right. And my parents were married for 62 years when my dad died.

My mother did not shed one tear. Because she said he wasn't dead and then she died about two and a half years ago. And I just pray that like the thief on the cross. She somehow repented. Yeah where she died because it's it's it is heretical and blasphemous.

Fortunately, it's a dying religion. Praise the Lord. Yeah, it's one of those things that came out of the 1800s though. The 1800s was a big time of apostasy with madam Blavatsky who really was the grandmother of New Age Deception that we have now and Satanism.

Yeah, and it's it's a thing where some refuse Medicine kind of like general witnesses, but for a different reason. I mean they're in their senses that their mind can fix it, you know, right when we were growing up.

We would never be allowed to go to doctors and we were not allowed to go to health classes in school. They we were put in art classes because the belief was if you learn about illness, you'll manifest it.

So we were not allowed to listen to medical commercials. We were just complete mind control of Only thinking positive thoughts, but the trouble is when you're have when you have. That's this fear that if you have a negative thought You're gonna have a negative Reaction, which is what the law of attraction and the secret teach by the way.

Yeah that that fear it it how can you get saved if you won't have What seems to be the bad news or the negative thought that you're a sinner and that was what kept me for so long from Really realizing I was a sinner because that just seemed so negative.

Then if you thought it that would make it true make it true.

But then you would attract because in these these New Age thinks thinking you are the creator and you create your reality with your thoughts and. So that puts you in the seat of being responsible for everyone and everything.

It's a horrible responsibility and burden and also it makes all of your relationships including with God Superficial because you can never admit that there's any problems or negativity. Yeah. Yeah, that's.

Similar to like in Mormonism where it's like you have to have this perfect life on the outside and yet on the inside. Everyone's falling apart. It's so sad. Yeah, Frank says he's saying God has been working in pulling many high-profile New Age and Neil Pagan influence out of darkness in these last few years.

It's amazing. I don't know. Other than you know, maybe he's referring to you Kosti hin, I don't. I don't know who else is there others that you know of that.

Well, I do know that when I was first saved it was very lonely. I didn't know any many people who'd come out of the New Age except for Warren B Smith. Who's been an amazing mentor? And and so now if you type in New Age to Jesus on YouTube, you'll pull up hundreds of testimonials.

So there has been somewhat of a mass exodus out of New Age.

Ali be struck. This is a stuck. He just had on and I don't Cat Von D or so, I forgot don't know the name. She's did did some TV show about tattooing. Yeah, if you During you don't know this this audience gets it.

I'm pop culture illiterate. So no one expects me to know any of this. I only heard about her because it was mentioned her baptism was mentioned in daily wire. But then I saw this interview and she had mentioned she had come out of a lot of that New Age thinking and and you know, I mean a lot of times you get these people and You you find that they Hey, well you take someone like a Kanye West it's like they make a profession of faith and everyone like wants to rush them into the limelight like they're gonna be the The one that can bring so many people to Christ.

And I've always taken the position. Let's let's wait. Let's hold off and I Don't you know that was very helpful when? You know we had As folks know on this show Lindsay Davis and She came out of supposedly came out of Bethel and came to the truth and was totally against word of faith and new epistolic Reformation and people were telling me how you got to get her on your show and I'm like According to her testimony.

She just got saved like I'll give her at least a year and I told her that we I you know I spoke to her on the phone and said like I won't have you on Just so you know and I and I told her you shouldn't go on anyone's program, you know and but for good reason because now we see she's totally Totally promoting deliverance ministry, which we did have a question with that.

Yeah, so yeah, I I learned the hard way by interviewing Lindsay when she was first saved. She had just gone on cultish and so I learned that you you've got the wisdom. Wait for a while before someone.

You know to see the soil. Is there good deep roots there?

Yeah, and it seems like with this cat von von D you know, she she was actually it seems saved for a while before she was even baptized and Had been. You know, she's not like coming out now and being like trying to build a platform.

It seems so.

Understand and I'm sure praying for her yeah, because it's not easy to be a public person and come out and and She's been criticized for this recent vampire video that she did and it's not my taste at all.

But when I was first saved I had contracts that I had to fulfill that it wasn't like I could just immediately sever all these contracts. So I had this New Age Kind of quasi Christian video series coming out just as I was Leaving the New Age and then I had a couple speaking engagements that I had contracts that had already been paid for.

And so I went to those New Age conventions. There was two of them one in Australia and one in Hawaii and I shared the gospel there. I thought well, I'm just gonna go into go into the enemy camp and went over real.

Well, I'm sure. Yeah. Well, what happened was that the New Agers because because I was at a New Age convention and the ones who were not there Who were just seeing it from social media started to gossip about me see she's not really saved.

She's at a New Age convention, but the people who were there saw that I I was completely not teaching New Age I was immediately Sharing the gospel and while we were in Australia for this we went to Hillsong there in Sydney and we were attracted to Hillsong because of the music because I was listening to that kind of music when I was first saved not knowing the difference but even as a baby Christian Brian Houston and his wife Bobby were on the stage and talking about how the the worst thing happened to them the very worst thing and they said they just got back from vacation and Their swimming pool was green with algae and then they said wait.

That's not the worst thing that can happen to you the worst thing that could happen to you is that you don't have a swimming pool and then all of a sudden these signs light up on this the stage with text this number to tithe to them and they start just Completely saying that you tithe you too can have a swimming pool.

Bobby Bobby Houston is waving around her credit card and saying you can be like me. I mean it was complete prosperity gospel. And like I said, even as a new Christian I could see that this was not biblical.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's like we got some more think comments here that came up. Let's see, Melissa said it really bothered me when I saw Christians attacking Doreen. We must be careful not to equate Justification with sanctification when someone makes a profession of faith and and I think that's a good point when I think a problem that many Christians have Doreen and I don't think they they do this purposely but when they've been a Christian for a long time and especially I find this more with with Christians that are not out evangelizing and discipling newer believers.

They kind of forget how where they've come from, you know. And they expect everyone to just know like what we talked about earlier the Christian ease. They should just know that.

Well, I mean I can see both sides now because I Also now I disciple women coming out of the New Age and a lot of them immediately want to become in Instagram and tick-tock influencers when they are babies and so I discourage them from doing that and yet that's what I was doing.

And so I shouldn't have been out there. I should have taken three years. I should have waited till I was You know finished seminary and also I was offered a publishing contract. After I was saved one year with Thomas Nelson.