Beautiful Conversation at the Temple

Reformed Ex-mormon

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Well, yeah, it's all about Jesus. The thing

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I'd like to take away is, um, I'd like to go look for all those Plan of Salvation parts in the

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Bible. Yeah, please do. And the, I think we just, we have different perceptions of Him and who

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He says He is. I agree with that. And I guess a lot of mine is formed from modern revelation, which is not accepted by you.

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So I can see why we stand apart, you know. Different, different agreements, right?

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I, Jen it was, right? That was a blessing, how you just described that, because that is exactly what

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I'm saying. Okay. And I, that's what worries me very, very much, right? It was an absolute blessing talking with Jen there that day.

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And she's absolutely correct. We have two fundamentally different perceptions of who

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Jesus Christ Himself is. And that is why, as a Christian, I am so worried about where the

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LDS are placing their faith because according to John chapter 17, verse 3, it says that this is eternal life, that they may know

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Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. Our salvation, our eternal life is dependent upon how we know

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Jesus Christ and have a relationship with Him. We can't have a relationship with Jesus if we reject that which

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He declared Himself to be. If you are a Christian watching this,

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I hope that this edifies you and helps you be encouraged to share the gospel in a kind and loving way to your neighbors, but without watering down the gospel message, but boldly still proclaiming

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Christ crucified and relying on Him and His salvation alone to deliver that message to those that you care for.

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And if you're Mormon, if you're LDS, and you're watching this, I would ask you that you look into the

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Word of God to see if those things that I was saying in this video, the things that we were discussing, if there is any truth in it.

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And don't trust on your feelings upon this. Trust on what God's Word declares about this.

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For in John chapter 14, verse 6, it says this, Jesus said to him, I am the way and the truth and the life, and no one comes to the

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Father but through me. Us being able to go to the

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Father is dependent upon who Jesus Christ is, and He says in here that He is truth.

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God is the author of truth, so if you seek it, you will find Jesus. I hope you have a blessed time watching this video, and just as you watch it, there will be cuts and edits that are done in it and through it because there's buses and interruptions that take place, but the majority of the conversation,

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I hope, is a blessing to you and helps you understand the Gospel that much better, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to Scriptures.

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God bless and enjoy. I'll talk with you again here in a second. Yes, please don't take off.

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Gospel track, guys. How you doing? Do you want a gospel track? I'm doing really good. How are you doing? If you take something from me.

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Absolutely, yes. It's in my car. Okay, yeah, please bring it back to me. And if I take something from you, do you want to talk with me later when you get a chance?

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I gotta read it, yeah. Okay, please do. Because I would love to talk with you about everything that's in there and about the

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Bible. I was LDS for 19 years, and so I really do care about you guys. Gospel track, guys. Gospel track.

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Don't you guys have anything better to do? Oh, sir, no. Preaching Jesus Christ crucified is the best thing I can do, sir. So would you like to take a gospel track, sir, and know who

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He is? Okay. Glad you guys are here. Well, thank you very much. This is not a waste of my time. Even if it falls on deaf ears,

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God is glorified today. So please, here's a gospel track, guys. Guys, I'm just out here telling people about the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection.

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As a Christian pastor, I tell my own church this all the time. I want people to know that Christ is the way

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He described Himself to be, because any worship to Him that's less than what He has described Himself to be is blasphemy to Him.

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Repeat that line. Yeah, it's blasphemous to God to not worship Him in the way that He deserves to be worshipped. So God Himself has said that I am the

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Alpha and the Omega. To deny that would be blasphemy. He says that I am the self -existing One. But do you know, sir, let me ask you about that, though.

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Because do you believe that our God is the one and only God from all eternity to eternity and that He existed fully in the body of Jesus Christ being in His incarnation?

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So that's different, though. So that's different. So that's different, though, than what the

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Bible says. So that puts you outside the camp of Christianity. And I know I talked with you earlier, and I want to talk with you more later, for sure.

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Because I love talking with you guys, and, hey, yes, GospelTrack guys.

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Okay, so I got a couple questions for you. Yeah, and if we need to take pauses because of buses, I understand that you're doing your stuff.

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So yes. I read a little bit when I grabbed my stuff out of my car. So you don't think that there was an apostasy, right?

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No, absolutely not. That would contradict Matthew 16, what Jesus Christ Himself said. And then, it seems like your biggest issue with us is that we believe that the

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Father and the Son are different, right? Yeah, so I would say my biggest issue is that it's a changing of who God is by denying who

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He described Himself to be. And not only that, but on the plethora of things I would disagree with, another huge thing is that it's faith plus works according to how you guys described that a person is saved.

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And in the Bible, it's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone that saves a person. Okay, I think we're all saved. Okay, what do you mean by saved though?

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Like, we're all saved from death because of the resurrection so we all can live again.

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And then I think exaltation is separate from salvation, so I think we're all going to end up in some sort of a heaven unless somebody has, like, you know, just gone about, like, trying to murder everyone.

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Like, pretty much everybody goes to some sort of heaven that they love. I would say about Jesus Christ Himself saying in Matthew 25, saying that He separates the sheeps from the goats, and the goats,

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He says, go into the everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels. To the sheep, He says, come and enter into my kingdom.

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That's very clearly that there's only two separate places, and one is retribution for what we have done against God, and that's breaking

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His law. And that's something that we all deserve. I deserve that, you deserve it, and I would say I'm the chief of all the sinners. I deserve it more than you.

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I deserve it far more than everybody else here. I deserve hell, because God is just, perfect, and holy, and righteous, and because He is those things,

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His attributes, He should hold me in contempt for violating His law. So if we went into a judge today, and I said,

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I robbed a bank, I shot the guard, I stole the money, I got away with it, I yadda yadda yadda, right? If I went before a judge and said, judge, don't punish me, give me good things, he's going to laugh at me and say, no, you're here not because of the good things you've done, you're here because you violated the law.

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And that's how we'll stand before God, is unjustified, condemned before Him, unless we place our faith in Jesus Christ.

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And so, my thing is, is that the LDS Church in Articles of Faith 3 and 4, I know that you've probably heard me talking about it, right?

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No, I can't hear very well. Okay, I gotcha. Do you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation? Okay. Do you believe that doing...

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Well, gosh, now I gotta think about that, because... Or exaltation, I'll say it like that. Okay. Do you believe that baptism is necessary for exaltation?

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Do you believe going to the temple is necessary for exaltation? Well, and I guess, yeah, and I guess like...

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Or the works that are performed in the temple. Yeah. Okay. And I'm saying this because I hope I'm not misrepresenting your side.

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In the New Testament, in John 17, verse 3, this is what Christ says is everlasting life.

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This is what my definition of salvation is. Everlasting life is that they might know Thee, the only true

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God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent. So our salvation, everlasting life, is dependent on us knowing

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Christ as the way He described Himself to be, and knowing God as He is in the Bible. And so my argument is that because the

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LDS Church teaches that those are separate beings, and that there's not one God from all eternity to eternity, that's contradictory to this

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Bible verse and the whole Old Testament and New Testament combined. That's contradictory to it, so it's a different God that I would say that the

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LDS Church is believing in compared to the Bible. And not only that, but that since adding faith plus works, adding obedience to laws and works and so on and so forth,

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Galatians chapter 2, verse 21 says that if you believe that you are justified by works of the law, then

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Christ died needlessly. Romans 3, 28 says, for we maintain that a man is justified through faith in Jesus Christ apart from works.

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Philippians chapter 3, it goes, the list goes on and on and on, that it's always through faith alone in Christ alone, and it's through His free unmerited gift, grace, that He gives to us, alone that we're saved.

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So if I stand before God and say, look God, I was baptized for you in your name, I prophesied in your name,

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I cast out demons in your name, that's what Matthew 7 says. There will be many that come to me on the last day and say,

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Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not cast out demons in your name? And did we not perform all these many mighty miracles in your name?

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So that's somebody that's saying that they know Him, they profess Him as Lord, which I profess Him as Lord, I only hope you profess Him as Lord too, right?

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So people will be professing Christ as Lord and have works and evidence, a testimony about why they know

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Him as Lord. And Christ says, depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you. So as a pastor at a church,

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I'm desperately telling people, look to Jesus Christ alone for your salvation, alone for your righteousness. All you do is nothing but filthy rags when you try to put it in the face of God as a means of your justification.

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It would be like going before a judge and saying, look, I know I'm sinful, I know I broke the law, but I helped 10 old ladies cross the street the other day.

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I went out and preached at an LDS temple, you should save me because of those things. That's putting works plus faith in order to save, and that's not what the

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Bible says. So like the ordinances you're classifying as works, which is why you think like, since the scriptures are saying it's not works.

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Yeah. So in fact, in Colossians 2, it actually uses that exact word ordinances, Colossians 2, 13 and 14, focusing in on 14, though, it says that he,

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Christ, he nailed, he took the principles and ordinances that were contrary to us and that held us guilty.

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It doesn't say that, but those things that hold us guilty, he took those things and he nailed them to the cross with him.

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He defeated those things at the cross. He fulfilled those things at the cross. And in him alone, we have righteousness.

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And in anything added to the salvation that Christ offers upon the cross is anathema.

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It's a different gospel. Did you just get sung? No. Oh, I was like, Oh, yes. Yeah. You were going to give me something.

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I thought you just because a bee flew by and then all of a sudden you were like, Oh, sorry. You're talking about nailing the works to the cross.

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And then I remembered, um, I wanted to give you this about covenants, um, because that's like, that's like, absolutely.

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Yeah. For us, I guess it would classify as works because we team up with God.

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And I'm going to, I'm going to save this. So I appreciate you writing it for me, but I would ask you again, right? These two things contradict each other.

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The thing I gave you and this thing right here, this is saying it's in Christ alone. And this is saying it's in Christ plus the covenants that we make in the temple.

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And so. But will you just read it? I will. I will absolutely read it. I'll finish reading yours. I will. I promise you,

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I will read it. What was your name again? Jen. Jen. I want you to keep on talking with me throughout this day. I'm going to be here all day.

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Yes, please do. I love questions. I'm a pastor and I love to talk. So you have to shut me up sometimes. So when

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Jesus was baptized, I'm sure you get this all the time. Oh, absolutely. I'm excited where this is going. Um, and there was the voice from heaven.

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This is my son, my beloved son. Um, so I'm just curious what you think about that. But first I wanted to say, like,

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I completely believe that Jesus created this earth and that he is the God of, he is the

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God like of just this earth though and not of other universes or other creation. I think that what he did here was for others.

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So that to me would be incontradictory what the book of Abraham describes. It says that he reorganized things, he didn't ever create anything.

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It says that there was matter that existed prior to him creating it, that, that, that's contra, that's outside of the realm of Christianity.

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That's outside of the realm of what the Bible teaches and that, that's one more reason I'm worried. Well, but probably, so we believe in a heavenly father separate, right?

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So I think that he probably created a lot of stuff and then Jesus, I mean, there's, there's so many things

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I don't know. I know, I know. And I don't have to know. And there's many things I don't know either. Yeah. But where do you go to find truth? Scriptures.

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Scriptures. Amen to that. Amen to that. So I'll have to go check out Abraham again. But, um, but like,

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I guess I think that Jesus organized this world from matter that existed, but like he created the world.

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Yeah. So, and then like, I don't know how much other things, right. So that would contradict John one.

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It says in there, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. And let me, before I misquote it. Okay, so you don't think

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Jesus created the world? No, he did. And he also, there's Bible verses of all three persons doing different things in creation, but this is the beautiful thing in John.

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This is, this is where I'm saying it's, it's a different God, right? In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was

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God. The Joseph Smith translation adds about 20 more words to this text.

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And that's never found in any, any manuscript trans transcription or anything like that. But it says he was in the beginning with God, all things, that means everything that we see around us, all things came into being by him and apart from him, nothing came into being that has come into being.

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So that, that to me right there shows that there's, there's a difference fundamentally between what the book of Abraham's teaching versus what this says.

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And it goes on to say the same word. So I'm assuming you probably know. Oh, right. Cause you don't accept Abraham. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Sorry.

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Nope, you're good. So in, in John one 14, it says, and the word became flesh and dwelt. That word dwelt is translated as dwelt for us to understand it.

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It literally means tabernacle. This temple, that was what a tabernacle was in the old Testament was when they moved from city to city.

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He tabernacled amongst us. It was the place where the holies of holies resided. And so the holies of holies dwelt with us.

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It's a, it's a beautiful, beautiful verse. He dwelt amongst us and we beheld his glory, glory of the only begotten from the father full of grace and truth.

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And it goes on to say in verse 18, I'm not trying to script verses. We can read it all in context if you want, but no man has seen

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God at any time. The only begotten God who is in the bosom of the father. He has not even

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Moses. I thought Moses saw God. No. Yeah. So actually he did. Yes. He saw Moses, but he didn't see God the father. Oh, okay.

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Yeah. He saw Jesus. Yeah. So Jesus, Jesus and John, I believe it's John chapter 12. I'd have to open it up and look.

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But then John, it says that, uh, in the book of Isaiah, it describes Isaiah seeing him and receiving the covenant to tell the people, uh, in Isaiah chapter six, he says, he sees

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God on his throne. Yeah. He saw God in a vision. Yeah. I mean, does that count? That's a good question.

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We can get to that, but he saw God on the throne and he saw his glory and he said that he saw angels saying, holy, holy, holy, and so on and so forth.

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And he says, whom shall I send? And he says, send me Lord. Here I am. And he, Isaiah is told you shall tell the people that they have ears that can't hear and eyes that can't see.

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It means people that won't believe. Right. And so that's speaking about Jewish Pharisees in Jesus's day, the people that could not recognize

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Christ as who he claimed himself to be. And in John chapter 12 it says, who's glory. I bet you like the chosen.

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Oh, I haven't seen it actually. No. Dude. That's a different subject. We can get back to that in a second. It's so good.

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But, um, it's so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I know you're good. No, you're good. No. I appreciate you interrupting me.

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That's a good thing. But in John chapter 12, it says that Isaiah saw the glory of him speaking of Christ.

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So who was the God that Isaiah saw on the throne that was having angels worshiping him? It was Jesus that he saw on the throne.

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And so my, my saying is that every time we see some picture or identification of God in the old

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Testament, like in the garden, when he was walking in the garden, in the midst of everything, it was Jesus that was walking.

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It was pre -incarnate Christ, Christ before he became incarnate. Before he had, he became fully man.

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It was fully God dwelling in the garden in the person of Jesus Christ. And so that's different than what, uh, saying that anybody's seen the father.

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The Bible actually, Jesus says, no man has seen the father, no, not one. It says that no man can see the father and live.

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It says that he dwells in an unapproachable light that no man can see or hath seen. And so my objection is, is that in Joseph Smith's history in verses 16 through 25, he saw the father and that makes them separate beings.

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And that is a huge contention with Christianity. That's outside of the realm of Christian. You can't consider yourself Christian and believe that.

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You just can't. By definition, you can't. Okay. I, yeah. But I still believe in Jesus.

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Absolutely. So I mean, I get your beef, but I... So let me ask you this. So Jehovah Witnesses, they believe in Jesus and they also believe in Jehovah and they believe those two are separate.

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Yeah. I took a lot of pamphlets from them. Yeah. Do you believe that Jehovah... Every month. Yeah. That's, I bet they love you if you're taking their pamphlets.

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Do you believe that they are believing the same Jesus, the same way he describes himself to be, as the way that you believe in LDS Church?

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Gosh. Um, all I know is from what I read that they do believe in Jehovah and that, um, so same

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God from the Old Testament, you know, and they, but they have a lot of other things they've interpreted differently, which is clearly what we've all done.

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And so the point of it is, is, is that I, I, every LDS person I've ever talked to... Okay. Do you believe in the

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Jesus that Muslims believe in? I got a different question. Yes. Let's hear it. Okay. Let me say this real fast. Yeah.

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The Jesus that Muslims believe in wasn't resurrected. That's a different Jesus than I believe in. And so our salvation is dependent on how we have faith in, or the object that we place our faith into.

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And so if we place our faith in something as Jesus didn't describe himself to be, it means that we don't have faith in Jesus of the

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Bible. So we can say, we can say Jesus, we can say Christ all the day long, but if I said

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I believe in Jesus, you'd probably say that's a good thing, right? Yes. What happens if I told you Jesus was my cashier at Fred Meyer and he goes by Jesus sometimes?

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You'd say, don't place your faith in that Jesus. Don't do that. True. Right. And you say you're silly for doing that. That's what I'm saying.

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You guys have a faith in the same type of Jesus as the Jesus at Fred Meyer. It's a Jesus that can't save.

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It's possible though that we, that we understand things differently from each other. So like you only met me five minutes ago and you would maybe tell somebody different things about like someone say,

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Oh, you, you met Jen Simon and then you'd say, yeah, I've met Jen Simon. Oh, tell me about her.

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And then you tell me what you know, which is like this much. Okay. And then you meet somebody else who knows me better, you know, and they can tell you more.

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But then you meet like my husband, he can tell you totally different. Totally. So like, I just think it's possible that we just all know him differently.

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So you know, some of us may understand him differently than others. And so like, even if the

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Muslims do believe in him, but maybe call him a different name or something like they're still believing in him and worshiping him.

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No, they don't. They don't worship Jesus. They just say he was a man. He wasn't God. He wasn't a man. He was a prophet. So they just think he was a prophet. I'm saying they're denying the essential of what

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Christ himself proclaimed. They believe in Allah. That's right. So that's because like, if, if, if he said he's

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Jesus and that he's God and they're like, no, you're not God. Like if they don't believe what he actually said, I guess

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I can see how you're saying like, if you don't believe what he said, but the thing is like scriptures have been so tampered with over centuries.

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So that's why like we have a different version than you, right? Yeah. So this, this is that. Thank you for asking that. You're the first LDS person that has asked me about that, about the translations.

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When I was LDS, I had a misunderstanding of this. And so please listen, listen and study what

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I'm trying to say. Don't take what I'm saying as, as, as truth. Go home and study this. There's a difference between translation and transformation, transferring something and translation.

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When I was in the LDS church, I thought, well, over the 2000 years, of course we've lost stuff in the Bible. Of course. That makes only sense because it had to be translated from this to this, to this, to this.

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That's not how the Bible was translated. You today can learn Hebrew and Greek and the point of it is, is we can go to those things and translate verbatim exactly what the

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Bible translators have and you and I can translate the same Bible that we have right now. What if they were tampered with before?

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They weren't. Like a long time ago. Good question. So Isaiah 55 says that God says he will place, he'll send out his word and it won't return to him void and he'll accomplish all that it was supposed to accomplish.

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So I believe that the Bible, when God ordained it to take place and he inspired men to write it, it was going to stand upon the earth and that's what we see.

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So every manuscript that we have, there's no difference in context of what it's saying. None.

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It's beautiful. There is no mistranslations. There is no messed up things. There's little things here where somebody might've forgotten the or this or this or this, but they are teaching the same exact God that you, that I believe in today.

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And you probably don't believe in like revelation. Not personal revelation. No. And so the reason that we have different translations, right, the reason that you would say that we believe in the

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King James version. I like the NASB. I prefer the NASB. I love the ESV. I read the King James sometimes. The point of it is, is when was the

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King James version translated in the 1600s? And so it was in 1600s language that it was written in.

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So today we have new language that we talk and we don't go thou, thee, thy. And so it gets translated in ESV.

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So it's English standard version. And then there's some that say, well, that one adds the word the here and there to help us read it.

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We want to be as literal as possible. And so we'll remove the word the and just have it read kind of clunky. That's the

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NASB. It reads kind of clunky every once in a while because it's trying to go for literacy. And so that's the difference between translations.

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Now there are bad translations, like the Jehovah Witnesses, they have a translation of the Bible. I would say that Joseph Smith, his translation is a terrible translation because all the manuscripts, the 6 ,000 plus manuscripts that we have of the

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New Testament, not a single word that Joseph Smith, hi guys, not a single word that the

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Joseph Smith's translation added to the Bible was, is ever found in any of those manuscripts.

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And so I would say, don't go to the Joseph Smith translation. Don't go to the Jehovah Witness. Go learn Hebrew and Greek and you can study it yourself because that's the most clear way that we can do it.

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I don't know Hebrew and Greek. I wish I did, but I know English good enough that I can trust my Bible, right? And so that, that's the, that's the translation.

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And so the reason that we have so many manuscripts isn't like they were translating it from Hebrew and Greek into German and then into Russian and then into Spanish and then into English because if that was the case, we'd lose so much information.

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That doesn't work. We know that doesn't work. But what happened was people, people were copying the manuscripts from one thing to another, copying and copying and copying.

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And they did this day and night all the time. And so that's why we have so many manuscripts of Hebrew and Greek that we can say that this is a reliable source, that it is true because they don't contradict each other.

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It's, it's beautiful. I love it. I, I, I, I absolutely love learning that kind of stuff. Like have you seen any of the originals because you love it so much?

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I haven't seen it in person, but I, there are pictures that you can go on like in the museum and you can, and you can literally go and learn

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Greek at home and you can translate John one, one in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was

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God. You can literally translate it. It's so cool. So, so cool. And then you can translate it into Spanish from the Greek to Spanish anyway.

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So it's so, it's so important, right? Because there, there isn't a problem in the Bible. There's, there's little parts here and there that we're like, okay, that, that's here and there.

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But doctrinally speaking, Christ has always been proclaimed as God since the day he ascended to today, 2000 years later, right?

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And so in Matthew 16, like you were saying earlier, I'm saying that Christ said that on this rock, speaking of himself, because he says, you are

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Peter, which means small stone pebble. And then he says, I will build my church upon the rock.

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Speaking of himself, you are nothing in comparison to the rock. I'm building my church upon myself and the gates of Haiti shall not prevail against it.

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And so the point of it is, is that 2000 years later, I take full confidence in what Christ said. And there's never been a great apostasy to see that's taken away the truth of who

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Jesus Christ is. There's always been believing Christians that believe in Jesus Christ and that we're saved through grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.

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And so I praise God for that. Yeah. What was your first thing that made you go, wait, this isn't, yeah, that's a good question.

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I appreciate you asking that. So when I was LDS, I was, for 19 years, I graduated from seminary with all four years.

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I memorized all 100 scripture masteries. Don't ask me to quote them. I probably can't. Um, yeah.

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Back to our conversation though. So, okay. That's a great

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Bible verse too. So in Jude 4, it says that we must contend for our faith eagerly.

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And so the root word of contentious is contend. And so I, I'm okay with saying I'm contentious. I'm contentious.

24:16

I don't try to be. I'm here to bring peace and good news. But if somebody perceives it as contentious, well,

24:22

I'm here to contend. That's what I'm here to do. So I want you to contend for my faith too, I hope. We are.

24:29

Oh, but then you're being contentious though. You see what I'm saying? No, I'm saying that. Yes, please. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. I'm just saying.

24:34

I'm sorry. What if that scripture about contend for your faith is contending against Satan?

24:41

Um, so it's in the, do you want, you want to open it up and look at it? I think that'd be good. I think it'd be real good.

24:46

I believe it's Jude 4, it's John, 1st John 4. It's one of those two. So we'll open it up here. Actually, let me just set this stuff right here.

24:51

So this was my quad when I was LDS. Just to prove to you I was LDS. I could open it up and I could show you all the highlighted stuff, right?

24:57

So Jude. Oh, look at that. I am wrong. So we are worried that we are worshiping a false

25:04

God. A false God. Who we think is Jesus. Yes. Yep. Absolutely. And that's why, so Joseph Smith history in verse 18, it says that all the professing creeds, all there is speaking of the

25:16

Christians of Joseph Smith's day are abomination and corrupt in the sight of God. Right? Oh yes.

25:22

Oh yeah. Don't pull in here. You might hit people. Um, so yes, yes.

25:28

Joseph Smith said I believe in, because I believe in all those same creeds that Joseph Smith was teaching. Hold on. Since we don't have masks on.

25:33

I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. Six feet away. My bad. That's funny stuff.

25:39

Let me try to find this here. Sorry. Wait, you don't believe in COVID? No, I do believe in COVID. Okay. Where is it at?

25:44

Content eagerly for the faith. You also have to finish telling me your story. Oh yeah. That's where we were at. Huh? Uh, so yeah.

25:51

So LDS for 19 years, um, I was getting ready to go on my mission and I, um, started dating this lovely lady, uh, who

26:00

I ended up marrying, uh, years later. So I love her very, very much. Um, but, uh, yeah, so I was teaching her one night after a month of dating her about, uh, the plan of salvation,

26:13

Joseph Smith, why temples are necessary, so on and so forth. And she listened to me for two hours, give my whole spill.

26:19

And I was thinking to myself, I could not have said that any better. I just, nobody could say no to Mormonism after I just talked to it.

26:24

I just quoted every single thing that Joseph Smith ever said. I, I hit it tooth and nail. It was done. Easy deal.

26:30

She's going to be baptized. And she sat really quietly and she looked over at me and she said, that's stupid and not in the

26:36

Bible. And it hit me like a brick wall that what I just said was really strange. I need to go home and look at this in the

26:42

Bible and six years to seven years later now to today, I have yet to find one thing that I taught her that night that the

26:47

LDS church told me was essential to being a Mormon in the Bible. Not one, not one thing, the plan of salvation, plan of happiness, never in the

26:55

Bible, Joseph Smith, never in the Bible, multiple gods, never in the Bible temples, old

27:01

Testament, but not like this temple, not in the Bible over and over and over again,

27:07

I just haven't seen it in the Bible. And so if somebody, if a Mormon could show me Mormonism in the

27:12

Bible, I would believe in it. But I, I know that that won't be done because I've read the Bible and I, it's just not there.

27:18

It's, it's, it, it, it's just not there. And that's the scary part. Right. I got to look it up now because I'm bugged now that I can't,

27:25

I misquoted, I misquoted. Yeah. And maybe not those words, right.

27:32

But I want you to look for it as far as preexistence, the father and the son creating a plan for free agency, us coming down here and there being a fall forwards and Adam, right?

27:42

The plan of salvation, fall forwards, men are that they might have joy, right? Book of Mormon. I can quote it still for it partially, right?

27:50

And the point of it is, is that those things contradict what the Bible says.

27:56

And it goes on to say that then throw through obedience and faith in the gospel ordinances, which like that gentleman just talked to me, that's not the gospel in the

28:04

Bible. That's never talked about. I didn't hear what he said. Yeah, I understand. But I'm just saying those things are not the gospel.

28:09

And so once again, that's not in the Bible. And then ultimately three kingdoms where everybody is rewarded based off of what they've done here in this world and what they had faith in nowhere in the

28:18

Bible. I haven't found it and I haven't found it. Seven years later. So that's, so that's why you're like warning everyone that I am terrified about that, right?

28:28

I'm terrified about that because every second, right? People are dying like that, like a snap of the finger. People are dying. I hope no one dies here today, but everybody's dying.

28:36

And when they die, yeah, that's good. So if I just hope nobody dies, you get what

28:41

I'm saying? I want them, everybody to know Jesus before they die, because God will hold us accountable for our sin.

28:47

And it takes the righteousness of Christ to cover us in that sin. Just like in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, when they cover themselves with the fig leaves, because it was their works they were trying to cover themselves with after disobeying

28:58

God, Jesus, pre -incarnate Christ takes those coverings off and covers them with the lamb, with the sacrifice is what it says.

29:05

And who's that sacrifice in the New Testament? Jesus. Who's the one that offered in the New Testament? Jesus. Who's the high priest?

29:10

Jesus. Who's the lamb? Jesus. It's all about Jesus. He's the main character of the story. Not you and I. We are, we are insignificant in this story.

29:18

It's all about Jesus and him alone. And so that, that's why I'm truly worried about it. So that, I hope that gives some more context why

29:24

I'm being as vocal as I am and as confrontational as I am too, contending for what

29:29

I believe in, right? So what are your thoughts on any of that? Well, I...

29:35

And as you're talking to me, I'm listening to you, I'm just, I'm, I'm looking up that Bible verse because that's going to bug the, that's going to bug the living tarnation out of me, so.

29:41

The contention one? Yes. The content. Yeah, contend eagerly for the faith. Contend eagerly. But yes, I'm listening to you.

29:47

Well, yeah. The thing

29:54

I'd like to take away is, um, I'd like to go look for all those plan of salvation parts in the

30:00

Bible. Please do. And the, I think we just, we, we have different perceptions of him and who he says he is.

30:10

I agree with that. And I guess a lot of mine is formed from modern revelation, which is not accepted by you.

30:15

So I can see why we stand apart, you know. Different agreements, right?

30:22

I... Jen, it was, right? That was a blessing, how you just described that, because that is exactly what I'm saying.

30:27

Okay. Yeah. And I, that's what worries me very, very much, right? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, if I died today, and according to how you would believe, that if I died today, rejecting the

30:41

LDS church... You would just continue to learn after your death. And I'm going to say I'm going to keep on rejecting it, because the

30:46

Jesus Christ of the LDS church is not a God worthy to be worshipped. But like, I get it. But you see what I'm saying? That's what you think right now, and I'm just saying, like,

30:54

I think there's so much we're all going to learn when we die. Okay. There's so much. Like, I'm going to be like, wow!

31:00

Like, I get so many things. So will anybody be in the true telestial kingdom? Sure. Okay. So I'm saying I'm probably going to go there if I die believing in what

31:06

I believe, if Mormonism is true, is what I'm saying. I'm going to go to one of those two. I'm not going to the celestial kingdom, because I'm rejecting what this is teaching.

31:13

And so, I would want... But it's... We don't think that's when judgment is. That's okay. Okay. For sure. We don't think you're judged right now.

31:19

So, we think that you'll have your eyes open, and you, um,

31:25

I mean, not like just you, everyone. Yeah. We think everyone has their eyes open. And learns a lot. Christians would say when somebody's absent of the body, there is a judgment that takes place that you are either in torment or in paradise.

31:35

Yeah. Oh. And so, it says in the Bible, and I can't tell you, so Jude 3 is where it says, So... Contend eagerly for the faith. That's... Jude 3?

31:40

I was one verse off. Jude 3. Okay. Yeah, Jude 3. But, um, yeah, it says to be absent of the body is to be present with the

31:46

Lord. So, immediately you're with Christ, or immediately you're not. So the rich man and Lazarus, um, in Luke chapter, uh,

31:55

Luke chapter 16, is that where I was? I was just reading it earlier. Maybe Luke chapter 7. I'm probably wrong on that. How are you guys doing today? Um...

32:01

I mean, there has to be at least some form of judgment, but I don't think it's the final judgment. Yep. So, there is a final judgment when we're resurrected in bodies, and that's when there's a separation of sheep and goats, and that's when

32:12

Christ says, go depart from me, or come into my kingdom. Right? And, and, and that, there, there is that judgment that does take place at the resurrection.

32:20

But, yeah, there would have to be some sort of judgment right after you die, you know, but then there's a final judgment.

32:25

Absolutely. And so, I would hope, as you do, you care about where I'm going to spend eternity, right?

32:31

And you're telling me why you believe in what you believe in, and I'm telling you why I'm caring about eternity, too, for you.

32:36

I want you to believe in what I believe in, too. Hello. How are you guys doing? Good. Good. Would you guys mind a gospel, taking a gospel track?

32:43

Good. I'll take one. Okay, thank you. I was like, I better not be bending down here for nothing.

32:50

Gospel track, guys. Jesus Christ. Guys, I really care about where you guys place your faith.

33:02

I want you to know who Jesus Christ is. I want you to know Him crucified, God in flesh, dying for the sins of His people, for His own glory.

33:13

Okay. Yeah. Did you finish your story? Yes. Because you told me that you answered her questions, and then it ended up into a six -year search.

33:21

There's a longer story to it, but that would be my short summation of that. Yes, that was the shortest summation

33:26

I could put it in, is that I was told that it wasn't in the Bible, and since then I've been looking, and I have not yet once found one document

33:32

I told her that night in the Bible. And so that's led me to who Jesus Christ is, reading

33:37

John 1, 1 through verse 5, the whole chapter of John 1. The entire

33:43

Bible itself, it's completely self -confirming in its message that there's 66 books of the

33:51

Bible, 40 different authors, and many of them never even knew each other, and they all taught one thing,

33:57

Jesus Christ, God in flesh, dying for the sins of His people, for forgiveness of sins, and if you place your faith in that alone, you are saved.

34:04

That's the whole, and it's God's glory, for His glory, that's the entire message of the Bible in a short, short summation. We have another question.

34:09

66 books. Yes. Sorry, so I was thinking about what you were saying about Jesus. Yeah. So then does repentance count as an act?

34:18

Ooh, that is a good question. So I would have to ask, how do you define repentance?

34:24

Um, a change of heart. Okay. Like turning to God. Yes. Change of heart, turning to God. That is a part of the gospel. So how does somebody change their heart?

34:31

John chapter 3, it says, you must be born from above. You must be born again. And so I'm saying that the repentance that somebody has is being born from above, from the

34:39

Holy Spirit, the changing of the heart that they do on about turn, they are looking at sin, and now they're looking at the cross, right?

34:45

And they're still gonna sin, they're still gonna mess up, but that's what repentance is, is turning to Jesus for alone, turning from sin to Jesus for your salvation.

34:53

So even in that definition of repentance, it's still the gospel message that's taking place there. So the act of repentance, like me saying, like, let's say

35:00

I go up and punch my friend Josh right in the face. Me telling him sorry is not required for me to have salvation, but me knowing that I did something wrong and my sin in that area, that is absolutely a portion of us knowing about God and about our own sin nature and about how we break

35:17

God's law. Does that make sense, what I'm saying on that? Or that's how I, as a Christian, that's how they would define that repentance.

35:22

So how would you repent today? So if you went and punched Josh in the face, how would you repent today about that? I would say

35:28

I'm sorry, and I think that just naturally follows if you really are. Okay.

35:33

So, like, would you have to do anything else for, for an atonement to take place in the punching

35:39

Josh right in the face? And if you did it, I would love it right now. I'm just kidding. Don't punch him in the face. Do you have to go to church on Sunday, take the sacraments, talk to the bishop possibly over something like that?

35:48

I would think that I probably shouldn't punch you in the face anymore, but the thing is, what if I have, like, an impulse, you know, and you keep ticking me off.

35:57

Like if I had Tourette's and I accidentally just threw a haymaker. And I just, like, have trouble controlling my temper, then

36:03

I would want to covenant with God so that he strengthens me so I can learn to control my bad behaviors.

36:11

So, Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7, okay? And if you want, I can open it up and I could probably quote it for you better than if I read it.

36:17

But this is what that verse says in Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7. It says, if you repent of your sins, you have received forgiveness of them.

36:24

But if you recommit a sin, all your former sins come back to you. Yeah, I feel like that's muddy.

36:31

And I think there's so many people who, like, maybe they're struggling with addiction or something.

36:37

And I think that they, they're having trouble overcoming something like that.

36:42

Yeah. And so, I think that they need God on their side to help them because they keep falling.

36:50

Right. Falling and falling. And they're... But I think that as long as they keep trying, like, technically they're, like, worthy or whatever.

36:58

Like, that's what I think. So, can I, can I, can I, so let me, let me tell you the two differences between Christianity and Mormonism in this comparison, right?

37:06

Of repentance and sin. A Christian's sin has been nailed to the cross with Christ. Christ became sin on our behalf.

37:12

He is our righteousness. He had imputed our sin on, into his account so he could pay for it. So my sin, me punching

37:18

Josh in the face, has already been paid for. Yes. Me sinning tomorrow has already been paid for, it's been wiped away.

37:24

But according to what Mormonism just said in Doctrine and Covenants 82 -7, it says those sins that were wiped away get added back into your account, get taken out.

37:31

Added back, taken out. And what I'm saying as a Christian, I'm not saying that means that I have a license to sin. That's not what

37:37

I'm saying. I'm saying a Christian better not sin because that blasphemes God and that's not a good thing. He paid for it, but in order for us to benefit from what he did, we have to actually turn to him and change.

37:48

So the beneficiary of what Christ did has already taken place. I have faith in Christ.

37:54

I am saved. I am benefiting from it today, right now. I don't need to do anything for that salvation. I will do things though because he has given me that.

38:01

So if I, what's your favorite car in the whole world? Favorite car? Do you like cars? No. What is something that you're wanting today?

38:09

Like today you want? Something I want? We'll use a car.

38:15

Let's just say you want a Corvette. Okay. Something very expensive. A Tesla. Okay. You want a Tesla. I don't know. I know.

38:21

Let's just say they're 70 grand. I don't know how much they are. They're expensive. Yeah. The new models I think are. Yeah. So you wanted that.

38:28

You don't deserve that from somebody like me. I went and bought you one today and I drove it up here and I gave it to you right here right now.

38:35

So I better take care of it. So, but when did you get the Tesla? When I gave it to you?

38:40

Yeah. You were going to take care of it because you got a Tesla. And if you tried to sit and go through your pockets,

38:46

I don't know if you have any change on you. And you were to say, Hey, here's a penny. I paid you back. I would say, what?

38:53

That was a gift to you. Get away. No, you don't even get this. That's what

38:58

I would do. That's what Christ in Galatians 2 says. It's almost insulting. It's a free gift. Yeah.

39:03

Grace is a free gift. That's the definition of grace. It's the unmerited free gift of God. Unmerited meaning that you didn't earn it.

39:09

Some people don't accept it. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's justifiable upon them, not on God for not accepting it because they are.

39:17

So Romans three is beautiful. I love that chapter. It says in there in verse 10 for none is righteous. No, not one.

39:22

None seek after God. None understand them. And in verses 11 through 18, it tells them all the ways that we sin.

39:28

Our throat is an open grave. We blaspheme God all day long and all night long. And it goes on to say

39:33

Romans 19 trying to quote it as best as I can. It says that the law was given to hold everybody accountable and guilty before God.

39:40

So it wasn't meant for us to keep it perfectly. If we could, we'd go to heaven today. If we could keep the law perfectly from the day of our birth to the day that we die, we're in heaven because of our own righteousness.

39:49

But the law was given to condemn us. It was to hold us guilty before God, to show our sin, to have it so that we needed a savior.

39:59

So that's what Romans 3 19 says. It says for the law was given to hold everybody accountable before God. And in verse 20, it says by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

40:09

No flesh. And then from 21 to 28, it continues on with this theme that it's only through the blood of Jesus Christ and him alone that we're saved.

40:15

And in verse 28, it says that we maintain that a man is justified in faith in Jesus Christ alone apart from works. So the point of Romans 3,

40:21

Romans 4 and Romans 5, it gives examples of Abraham, David, so on and so forth. All these

40:27

Old Testament figures. And they all are saved by faith. I can't move past that you said the scripture about the law is meant to condemn us because I have never looked at it that way.

40:37

I only look at it like God's commandments are meant to help us and protect us and like team us up with him and make us worthy.

40:45

And yeah. So the law is absolutely what God wants us to follow. Let me let me be clear that he gave us the law and we should obey it because he's

40:52

God and he's given it to us. So if he said that the law was that I should sit on grass all day and night, I should sit on grass on day and all night.

40:58

Right. But that's not his law. You like ponder. Right. Something he wants you. Yeah. But in Romans 3 19, it does say that the law was given to hold everybody accountable before God.

41:07

And in the Bible, it also says that the law has been written on our heart and that we from all creation know that there is a

41:13

God and Jesus Christ, we know is God and the Bible has revealed it to us. So we have ample opportunity to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

41:20

Every person, even the person that's never heard the name of Jesus Christ, they could repent and believe in Jesus Christ today. But they choose not to.

41:25

What about after they die? Do you think that people will have a chance to accept Jesus after they die?

41:31

No. That's why I'm so worried about it today is that there is no second chance, because that's why in Matthew 25, he separates the sheep from the goats.

41:37

Wait a minute. What about all the people who never even hear about Jesus? You think they're all just doomed?

41:43

Are they saved? Are they are they doomed because they didn't have faith in Christ or because they broke God's law? They just didn't know about it.

41:50

They broke God's law. Since the law is written on their heart, they choose to violate God's law and therefore they are a sinner.

41:56

No one is righteous. No, not one. Wait, you think they're automatically supposed to know all of God's laws? They need and they should be following him and they should.

42:04

And they do know God's law. So if you went to a... Somebody born in some far corner of the world, the Middle East, that doesn't know about Jesus.

42:10

So he has to get a chance. This is beautiful. This is absolutely beautiful. If I said to somebody that has never heard

42:16

Jesus Christ or God, Yahweh of the Bible, don't even know what the Bible is. And I was to go to them and say, is it okay for me to start killing your babies, my babies and everybody else?

42:25

Well, no, they're going to say that's not okay. That's not morally okay. Where did they get their standard from? It's because they have a moral reasoning that's been placed on their heart that they know that they should not murder.

42:34

Yeah, but don't you think God's laws have more complications than just moral reasoning?

42:39

So there's the two great commandments that Jesus Christ himself gives. He says that you should love the

42:45

Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, I think is what it says off the top of my head. And he says that the second commandment is that you should love your neighbor as you love yourself.

42:53

And in these two, you shall find all the commandments of God. So all ten of the commandments are found in those two.

42:58

And so it wouldn't be loving if I, if I killed everybody, all they do. That's the point of it, that we are all condemned by the law and we're under sin and we need a savior.

43:08

And so in the Old Testament, God has said that only God forgives sin and only God is our savior.

43:13

Right. And it goes on to then say in Luke, Luke, chapter six or seven, that there was a paralytic man who was wanting to see

43:21

Jesus and his whole house was full with Jesus, with people trying to talk to him, trying to see him, trying to touch him, so on and so forth.

43:27

And this paralytic man in desperation has his friends tear apart the roof and go through the roof.

43:33

And what is the first thing that Jesus says to him? He says, your sins are forgiven.

43:39

Because of your faith, your sins are forgiven. And the Pharisees, what do they say? You can't forgive sin.

43:45

Because God alone forgives sin. And they're quoting from the Old Testament. And to that, I say, amen, only God can forgive sins, period, amen, exclamation mark, the whole shebang.

43:54

That is it. God only can forgive sins. Not a man, not a woman, God alone. And Jesus doesn't say,

44:01

Pharisees, you don't know what you're talking about right now. He says, if you don't believe, watch this, walk paralytic man, take your bed and go home.

44:08

So he proves to him that he has power over this man's health, and he proves to him, he doesn't confront them about them saying, you just said something that was blasphemous about God.

44:18

He says, no, that's right, go and walk home now. And so that's, once again, that's another contradiction that I see with Mormonism and Jesus in that text, is that Jesus there is saying that he's the one and only

44:29

God. And there's, once again, none before him, none after him, he knows not any. And that's why, once again,

44:35

I am super concerned about anybody that would go before God and say, Lord, I had faith in what you did,

44:40

I believe that you said you were God in flesh, but it is through my baptism and through the obedience of the ordinances of the gospel message, and the gospel is this and this and this, which is not in the

44:50

Bible. And I think I should become like you. That's only going to condemn somebody if they try to say that before God.

44:58

I would hope that if someone approaches God, they would be more humble than that. I would hope so too.

45:04

But Matthew 7, there's going to be people that come to him and say, Lord, Lord, there will be boastful people that come to him and say those things.

45:10

And like I said, I've never cast out demons, I've never performed any mighty miracles that I know of anyway.

45:17

There will be people that do that. And even if me and my self -righteousnesses that I have, like, trying to think of a good righteous deed

45:25

I just did recently, let's say, let's say I serve somebody recently. If I go into Jesus and say, Jesus, Lord, Lord, I serve somebody.

45:33

You know me because of that. Jesus is going to say, depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you.

45:39

So the Christian... But he also says like... You want to see something really cool about good works? Okay, hold on.

45:46

Yeah. Hold on. My turn. Yes, please. I'm talking a lot. Like I said, you have to tell me to shut up sometimes. I just don't know that he...

45:52

I just... The Jesus that I believe in, I don't think that he would actually respond that way. I think that he would be like, let's have a conversation.

46:01

I think that he knows the person's heart and that he would then, like, try to help them get to know him.

46:11

I don't think he would just be like... Even after they've died, they are blaspheming God every day and every night of their life, breaking

46:16

God's law, thinking that they were doing good, but they weren't, they were actually worshiping a false God. So you're saying like, this person who's serving people, which is what he's asked us to do.

46:29

And if you serve people, you're serving him. Yeah. So, but that's on the...

46:35

And the loving your neighbor. Yep. So you're saying if they're misguided, like misdirected in who they're looking at and how they understand him, that that's complete, they're completely off the mark and it just, it's all for naught and, and all, all the efforts they, they made in like trying to...

46:53

If I hit you with these pamphlets and just know I'm trying to get a B off you. Trying to follow the God that they believed in, he's just going to say, sorry, you were wrong.

47:03

That's what Matthew seven says. And let me give you an example of something like that. A good work that isn't done for somebody else, but for yourself alone, baptism is baptism.

47:13

What you need to do for you to be in the celestial kingdom. That's a good work that you have done for yourself on behalf of yourself.

47:20

Faith is, so let me give you, let me try to give you an example real fast about how we're condemned before God.

47:27

So if I go over to Josh right now, he's my friend, I slapped him in the face, I knocked him down, knocked him out.

47:33

He gets up. He might be mad. He might even slap me back. Possibly. Maybe not. He might just get up and be like, what the crap did you just do? Why'd you do that?

47:39

If I was to slap one of these people in line, they would probably call the cops on me. Right? And if the cops got here and I slapped the cop in the face and I'm going to jail now.

47:47

Right? And if Joe Biden was here and I slapped him in the face, bad, bad things that are happening to me. Right? I might go to jail for terrorism because I'm doing, you see what

47:54

I'm saying? The action is the same, but the position of authority and relationship to me is different because God is the greatest authority of all things.

48:02

He gives an eternal promise about salvation. He also has an eternal condemnation for people that break his law.

48:08

So when we break God's law, it's like us slapping him. It's like us slapping him. And then because we slap him in the face day and night is what the

48:14

Bible says. We blaspheme him all the time. There's no amount of us saying, Oh, look at what I did to serve this person or that person.

48:21

Because in, in Isaiah, so this is really interesting. So in Isaiah, where I'm quoting from with Isaiah 43 verse 10, it says that there's no

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God's form before me nor after me. It goes on to say things like their, their, their idols, their gods are making, uh, burdens on the backs of the beasts and, and it's this and this and this.

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If we have a false God that we're doing works towards, it doesn't matter how many of those works look morally good to you and I, like if I was to feed a homeless person right here, but I said,

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I'm doing it because I am a Buddhist and I want to be reincarnated as a human again. That's not a good work.

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Now that's a blasphemy to God, even though it's a good thing I'm doing, it's not a good work to God. So Isaiah 46 or actually

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Isaiah 64 verse six says, all your righteous deeds are nothing but filthy rags before the eyes of the

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Lord. And that word filthy rags in there is literally menstrual cloths. So what he, what that text is literally saying is that us thinking we have good works before God is me taking menstrual cloths to God and saying, look, look at all

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I've done. Look at it. Reward me off that. Exactly. And so he really wants us to serve.

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He does. And I'm not denying that, but it's only founded first on a proper relationship with Christ. And after that we will want to serve people.

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So like what I'm doing right here right now, I'm saying I'm serving people, even though a lot of people are saying I'm doing a silly thing and what I'm doing is not right and so on and so forth.

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What I'm doing right here is trying to glorify God because of my salvation. He deserves to be glorified in such a way. Once again, this righteousness that I think

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I'm doing, I would never say is meriting me anything before God. And so what's really cool in the book of Revelation, I love this chapter,

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Revelation, it says that there will be the elders that are given a crown of glory. And what do they do with the crown of glory that they receive from Jesus in that text?

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They take it and they throw it at his feet. They say, worthy, worthy, worthy are you to be worshiped.

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I don't get the reward. You are the main character of the story. You deserve the crowns. That's the way it should be.

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And so that's what the Christian's attitude is, is that it's not me. It's not my righteousness. It's all Christ. It's all on Jesus alone.

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And which is why it's funny that we sing about like mansions of heaven. Yeah, it is funny. I love John 14. That's one of my favorite texts.

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But yes, it is funny how that works. You know what? How I've always described heaven. But some people are motivated differently.

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They are. And so the reason how I describe heaven is I don't care about what it looks like. I'm just happy that there's streets of gold, because gold is a soft metal.

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Because when I put my knees on it, that means I can be in a prostrate position before Jesus Christ even longer with my knees not bleeding.

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Because he deserves that kind of worship. And not only that, but salvation in Jesus Christ is so, so important.

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Because my wife, knowing Jesus, there's nothing I could do to her to get her to be saved.

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It's only upon her having faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. And guess what? If we get to heaven together, I never want her to look over to me and be happy with me and what

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I've done. I want her to not take her eyes off of Jesus Christ, because he is once again the main character. Oh, she can be glad you're there.

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And I hope she's there. Like, I hope everybody else is there. Because they need to be worshipping God. That's how firm

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I am about God being worshipped in the way that he should be worshipped. My wife isn't exempt from that. My wife is a believer in Jesus and praise

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God for that. And she will be in heaven with me. But not in the way that the LDS are teaching about eternal marriages.

51:30

It's kind of funny to me a little bit that, um, like, we think that even though you believe differently, you still have a chance to change your mind in heaven.

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But you guys and my friend Connie... Connie! She sounds like a nice lady. Don't think anybody has a chance after they die.

51:49

Yeah. And it's not fair. I think there's good reason for that, right? And I don't think God's ways have to be fair, but he's so merciful,

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I think. He is. I think that he will make sure everybody has a chance to fully understand.

52:01

Absolutely. Because I think that the root here is the misunderstanding. That you think it's us that misunderstand, and we think you misunderstand, you know?

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And I think it's just everybody's misunderstanding at some point. There's only really three options, right? Because what you're saying is contradicting me, and what

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I'm saying is contradicting you, and what our beliefs are, right? The third option is that we're both wrong and there's something else true. Right?

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Well, and that's completely likely. And if that is the case, so be it. But what I'm saying is in the Bible, I'm going to always fall back onto the

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Bible. I'm not going to trust my feelings for truth. I'm not going to trust what I'm thinking for truth. I'm going to go to God's word and just quote it.

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Because that's truth. Jesus says in John 14, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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Jesus is the truth. God's word does not return back to him void. It is truth. And that's how

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I take it as, right? And so, if I have a misunderstanding of God, I only want someone to correct me.

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In fact, if somebody didn't correct me, it would be evil and hateful of them for them not to. Because that's what our salvation is dependent upon, is upon God.

52:55

And not us. Corrections should come gently. Yeah. Sometimes. But Jesus himself brought out the whip and got people out of the temple in that day, right?

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And it says in Matthew 1, or not Matthew 1, Mark 1, 14 through 15, it says that when he was entering into the city of Galilee, he was preaching the gospel, saying, repent and believe in the gospel, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

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The very simple message of Jesus Christ saying you have to believe in the gospel is offensive to so many people. And that's what we see the

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Pharisees. They're saying, what? You're saying that we don't know who God is? That's an offensive message. Jesus doesn't say don't be offensive to people.

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He says, offend people in such a way that they have no other choice than to look to Jesus Christ and not for their own works.

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That's how I see the message of Jesus Christ over and over and over again. I would agree with that, 100%.

53:41

There's like -minded Christians that have bad attitudes. I agree. So, two more questions. Yeah. I hope there's a hundred more.

53:48

I could be here all day. Why don't you know right now on your mind? I got you. Two more questions. Why don't you want to watch The Chosen?

53:53

So, that's a really good question. And then my second one is, what do you think about prophets? So, can I answer your second question before I answer the first one?

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So, the second one, Jesus says in Luke 16, 16, he says that the time of the law and the prophets were until John, speaking of John the

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Baptist. The purpose that we see in Amos 3, 7, for surely God revealed nothing but unto his servants the prophets.

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The reason that that is in the Old Testament is because the prophets' role was to point people to the future reality of Jesus Christ.

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So, an example of that would be in Psalm 23, was written in 900 BC. Oh, so you don't think that there needs to be any after he came?

54:27

Yes. Because in Hebrews 1, it says that since then - What about his apostles? Are they not considered prophets? So, what are apostles?

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No, they're not considered prophets. They weren't prophesying. They were pointing back to Jesus. They were saying, look at Jesus.

54:38

They were pointing back. Oh, okay. I see your logic. Okay. And so, and not only that, but then there's some minutia stuff with denominations in Christianity that I don't necessarily want to get into, just because it's hard to explain it to a

54:48

Christian, let alone somebody that doesn't even know what apostolic cessationism versus continuationism is. It's a long, it would be, we'd be here for five hours.

54:54

Cessation means something's ending. Ceasing, yep. So, like, that would, to me, that would mean the end of apostles.

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Yeah, so, that's what I would argue for. That's how I argue the text. Then it was over. It's done. We didn't need them anymore.

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That's how I argue that text. But that's a different note. So, to answer the question about the chosen, God says that you shall not have any graven images before me, and since I believe

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Jesus is God, I do think it's a graven image for us to depict him in such a way on TV, so I am opposed to it in that way.

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And the chosen, I've never watched an episode of it, but I've heard from my Christian friends that they go about presenting

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Jesus in such a way that it makes him not have the authority that he's seen in the scripture. They change some of his wordings, they add words that Jesus didn't say.

55:37

To make him more relatable. To make him more relatable, and I disagree with that. Okay, okay. So that's the reason. Okay.

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I know that there's Christians out there that are good brothers and sisters of mine that watch the chosen, and I'm okay with that.

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I'm just saying, personally, I wouldn't be for it, so. But I'm happy that you remembered me saying, ah, and then wanting to ask me about that.

55:55

That's a good question. I'm just sort of curious, like, what you think he was like on earth.

56:01

Yeah. That's a good question. He was born a Jew in the time of Jerusalem, so he was definitely not the color of you and I.

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He was not the color of you and I, right? He wasn't the color of you and I. That's all I can tell you for sure, he wasn't.

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And the way I see Jesus is the way that he described himself to be, and that's fully

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God, fully man. So he hungered like you and I, but yet he was omnipotent, and omnipresent, and omnipotent.

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He knew all things inside the body of Jesus while he still had hunger pains and grew and went through puberty like I did, and so on and so forth.

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In the manger as he was crying, he knew all things. Because that's what it means to be fully God. And so, absolutely, it's this…

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He grew in… What's that scripture? He grew in wisdom and stature. Yep. And how

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I would say that that text is meaning, because Jesus says that… Uh -oh.

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Uh -oh. Sir, I'll step right here. I was just talking with Jen here.

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I wasn't wanting to be in people's way as they pulled out, so. I appreciate you all being honest, because I'm not a member of the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, and I don't want to be a… No, sir, I used to be. I used to be. And I want you to know

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Jesus just as much as I know him. He brought his… I brought my quad, if you don't believe me. That's my quad. I could open it up for you.

57:18

I think I tried to lure him in on accident. I'm sorry. No, you're okay. I apologize for being on church property.

57:26

So the point of it is, is I'm at your front doorstep right now, just like how

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LDS missionaries go to my front doorstep telling me about what they believe, and they're bearing my testimony, or their testimony.

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I'm on your front doorstep right here, not on your property, but on your front doorstep, and I'm begging you that if you die today according to what

57:43

I see in the Bible and what I would admit the Bible says, I have worry about where you place your faith, and that if you die today, there won't be a second chance.

57:50

Just like the rich man of Lazarus, he says, Father Abraham, send

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Lazarus down with a drip of water on my tongue to help me cool this flame, this torment that I'm in.

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Help me get away from this. He says, nope. Too late. Too late. There's a great chasm between you and I. And he goes on to say that the rich man says, well,

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Father Abraham, send somebody from the dead to go and talk to my brothers that are alive still. And he says, they have the prophets.

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They won't believe even if somebody raises from the dead, speaking absolutely of Jesus Christ. And so my message right now is the most important message.

58:23

Wait. They have the prophets. They won't. Explain that part. Yeah. So he says in there, he says, they have the prophets.

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If they don't believe. Oh, if they don't believe the prophets, they won't. They won't believe in Christ. Because who were the prophets prophesying about?

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Christ. They were prophesying about his resurrection, his death, his burial. And so right now, I'm telling you that I'm begging with you to look to Jesus Christ alone for your salvation.

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Run away from doctrine and works that you think would justify you and look solely upon Jesus Christ.

58:50

The final word Jesus says on the cross is to telestai, and it means it is finished. That's what he says.

58:55

That's the final word that he says. Doesn't that refer to like his suffering? Let me answer.

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You got a bee on your hat. Do you want me to hit your head? Okay. I was like, it's still there. I could get it for you right now.

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Okay. Jesus. So that were to telestai. If you don't want me to hit you, I won't. There it was. It flew away. So Jesus says to telestai.

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And just like how you and I go to the store and we buy things. It wouldn't look good on your camera. No. It probably wouldn't look good. It wouldn't look good.

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It probably wouldn't look good to everybody else. Me beating them. That guy would come back over and tell me, I'm on church property beating somebody up now.

59:23

So anyway. But just like if we go to Fred Meyer and we buy something with our credit card and we get a receipt and it says total amount owed zero when paid at all.

59:32

Right. That's a receipt that we get today. In 2000 years ago, there were receipts in Jesus's day. So if I was to sell you a donkey, you would pay me the money for the donkey.

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I'd give you the donkey and I would give a certificate of proof of purchase. And at the bottom of it, it would say to telestai.

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It would say it's paid in full. That debt has paid. And so Christ said it is finished.

59:52

A little bit. Enough to be dangerous. Enough to be dangerous. What are the other ones? Greek and Hebrew. Yeah. Those are the two ones.

01:00:00

But the point of it is, is that Christ paid it all. And if we say that we have to add to that atonement, it's no longer an atonement.

01:00:06

Christ died needlessly for the person that says that they are justified through being obedient to the law. I could just sit here and read the

01:00:13

New Testament to you and just point out how every verse that Paul ever wrote to the epistles to the church was telling them, look to Jesus alone.

01:00:20

Look to Jesus alone. Look to him. Look to him. Preach him crucified. And anybody that says that it is through works and faith that they're saved, not just faith in Christ, that they are an enemy of the cross.

01:00:31

They hate the cross. They don't like it because they see a salvation there that they don't want. They reject the cross of Christ.

01:00:38

They're enemies to it is what Paul describes them as. Because they think people should have to earn stuff? Yeah. It's people that believe in a false god.

01:00:43

That's what that's describing in there is that people that reject Christ as who he says he was are enemies of the cross. And so in my 19 years of being

01:00:53

LDS, I was never taught one thing I just told you from a Christian perspective. I learned that Christians believe in X, Y, and Z.

01:00:59

They don't have the full truth. They only have partial truth. They have partial light. They don't have the full restored gospel. I'm saying that that restored gospel never fell away.

01:01:07

And that gospel message has been being proclaimed since the day of Jesus Christ. And the same message I am teaching right here about the gospel, his death, burial, and resurrection, the same one that Jesus preached,

01:01:16

Paul preached, Peter preached, Justin the martyr preached, Saint Augustine preached, John Calvin, Martin Luther, every church father that we can sit and name,

01:01:24

Charles Spurgeon, so on and so forth, every Puritan, John Owens, so on and so forth. It's that same gospel that I'm here preaching.

01:01:31

And if we have anything other than that, that should throw alarms to you. First of all, because church history shows otherwise in the last 2 ,000 years.

01:01:38

But not only just that, but the more important reason, because it contradicts what the Bible says. So does any of that make sense?

01:01:44

Well, I mean, it's good to understand where you're coming from and how you think, how you perceive the last 2 ,000 years, and then all the stuff that we view as restored.

01:02:01

Yep. So if we're calling it restored, like some of the differences, so like the stuff we do in our temples, ordinances, covenants, and like prophets, and scripture that we feel has been revealed, and all that stuff.

01:02:23

So if we believe that that's restored, and you just don't accept any of it and think that it's all like false and wrong, so you think that like, well, what about, but the we also believe in like priesthood, do you think that that never left either?

01:02:44

So I would ask you what priesthood means, and I could tell you what my understanding of the LDS doctrine is of that, but the priesthood in the

01:02:51

Old Testament was never for doing works for the dead, never for performing marriages, never for any of that.

01:02:58

In fact, there was never a marriage or baptism that ever took place in the Old Testament temple, where priests were doing works.

01:03:05

What we see in the temple is that from the top to the bottom, the brim was overfilling with blood of sacrifices, pointing us to Jesus Christ, being given by one high priest throughout the year.

01:03:17

So one high priest. And so the priests that we see in the Old Testament were always pointing us to Jesus. Jesus in Hebrews 1 says that He is that high priest.

01:03:25

So no, we don't need to be priests in that sense, but in Revelation it does say that because we are in Christ, He has made us to be priests unto

01:03:31

His kingdom, we are to serve Him in that way. There isn't necessarily a priest. I wouldn't say that there's a priesthood with keys and authorities that make it so we can go and do these ordinances for people that may give them a second chance in the second

01:03:43

Because you believe all of it's unnecessary. Yes. Okay. It's not even unnecessary. I would say that doing works for the dead is completely contradictory to what our

01:03:50

Bible says. Okay, right, right, right. Yes, but yes. Yes. Welcome, people.

01:03:59

Jen, thank you so much for talking with me. But we don't have to be done. Well, I'm going to probably go get lunch right now. Do you need a lunch or anything like that?

01:04:04

No, I have a ton of food. I know. I'm going to go get dinner now. Probably. Hi, how are you? Where are you visiting from? It's gotten low.

01:04:17

That's awesome. Oh, I'm so happy. Well done. Alright, enjoy your meal.

01:04:24

We'll be talking to you. Yes. Do you guys need anything? Water? I can get you a hot chocolate if you guys really want a hot chocolate.

01:04:30

I've got chocolate milk. Okay. Okay, fair enough. Okay, you guys have a good rest of the day. Thanks again,

01:04:35

Jen. Thank you. God bless. What was your name again? Brayden. And I promise you I will... Patterson is my last name. Thank you.

01:04:40

I promise you I will read that you gave to me. Please look more into that gospel track because it's super important.

01:04:45

Thank you. Yes, God bless. Yes, repent and believe in the gospel, Jen. Thank you. Hey, thank you so much.

01:04:51

Yeah. Have a good day. Hi, I'm Pastor Brayden. I hope you're having a blessed day and I thank you for watching this video.

01:04:57

As a Christian, it is my goal to give God glory alone and to proclaim the gospel message unto all the nations.

01:05:05

The gospel message is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God in flesh, the great

01:05:13

I Am, the perfect Lamb, and the High Priest, the only means of our salvation according to scriptures, and that through having faith in that alone for your salvation, you will be saved.