Dr. Michael Brown and "A Queer Thing Happened to America"

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the

United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good afternoon, welcome to The Dividing Line. I started a little bit late there.

We were trying to get our guest, Dr. Michael Brown, on Skype and we don't know what happened there, but it mattereth not because we still have the good old phone system.

Dr. Brown, thank you for being with us this evening, sir. Oh, thanks, Dr. White, for having me on. I appreciate it.

Well, I tell you, I think

I mentioned to you that one of the most difficult books

I ever wrote, actually co -authored, was The Same -Sex Controversy a decade ago now.

And when I saw your book, first of all, when I saw it, the cover, do you offer that in a brown paper version?

That was actually, when we did focus groups and asked about the cover of the book, that was the one that won hands down.

But then our next question was, okay, would you have a problem going to the counter and checking out with that book in a book store?

Yes, yeah. I'm not sure how many pastors are going to have that facing out on their bookshelf, you know what

I mean? Yeah, yeah. Well, you can always take the outside cover off, of course, and it's a lovely hard cover underneath.

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. But when I saw that you had come out with this book,

I just knew how oppressive and difficult it was to deal with this subject 10 years ago.

And having now read the entirety of this tome, and it is a tome, it is a huge book,

I just am utterly shocked at the speed,

Michael, at which things are happening. I mean, your stuff is so up to date, and it left me breathless as I was working through this book to see how far things have gone.

When you started this, were you surprised as you did your research to see how far it had gone?

Yeah, I went from shock to shock, right up to the final editing of the book and getting in the very last news items, and then from when the book came out in March, March 14th, until today, the pace continues to pick up.

It's mind -boggling, and it's almost like someone just changed the rules of the game and said, your side loses, we win, and here's what's going to happen, and you can't do anything about it.

The level of capitulation, the level of where the goalposts keep being moved until what the demands are, it's mind -boggling.

I was shocked when I started researching. It was painful, like you said, oppressive, very dark in so many ways, and I knew

I had to do this. I knew it was important to help awaken the conscience of the culture, but it goes from shock to shock, and I kept thinking,

I've got to put this news, I've got to include this, I've got to get this other book in, and I thought, this is not going to end any time soon.

No, no, I mean, you could keep updating this all the time. Now, there's just so many things. I'm looking at the table of contents here, and I'm thinking about so many things all at once, trying to cram it all in.

Thankfully, we do not have any hard breaks. Something that you know all very, very, very well, we don't have those constrictions, so we can get a lot of information in here.

But looking at this book, the first thing that crosses my mind is,

I am concerned because the vast majority of Christians just don't want to think about this subject.

This does not define who we are. We do not get up in the morning and start thinking about homosexuality and things like that, and getting

Christians to recognize that this is this massive cultural movement and that our children are in danger here, people don't want to talk about it.

It's like, oh, come on, can't you talk about something else? Do you encounter the same thing? Oh, of course.

On the one hand, there are people that recognize the importance of this, and they're constantly saying, speak up, thank God for what you're doing.

But all the time, I just saw a post on our website because of my daily radio show, and a guy said,

I guess I'm going to have to go somewhere else to get the word of God, because this is the only thing you talk about. And I said, you know, just for the benefit of others posting here, let me interact with you.

And I said, look, every show has its purpose, I said, but one day a week we deal with moral and cultural issues, and this often is going to come up, especially with my book coming out, someone needs to sound the alarm, we need to address this, or we're going to have to apologize to our kids or grandkids.

And I was at a pastor's meeting in Raleigh, North Carolina yesterday, pastors and business leaders, and one black pastor asked this question.

He seems to be a radical thinking guy, he seems to be activist in his orientation, but his thing was, we're not going to change the culture, why bother?

Let's concentrate on loving each other and blessing each other, doing good to the household of faith, trying to get unity, and trying to win the loss.

Why even bother with the culture? I said, sir, if we had that mentality 150 years ago, you'd still be a slave, and white men would still be committing atrocities.

This is the great cultural issue that's facing us, and for me, I didn't go looking for this, this came knocking at my door.

This came knocking at the door of our city with Gay Pride Parade, this came knocking at the door of our city with the biggest gay activist organization coming our way and talking about how they're going to transform

America, backed by all the biggest companies in our city. It came knocking at my door in our school system here in the greater

Charlotte area, with a Southern Baptist church leaving the Southern Baptist Convention so that they could begin to ordain homosexuals into ministry.

So this is at our doorsteps, no matter which way we turn, and we have a moral responsibility to speak up to do what's right.

If we do not provide a moral conscience for the society, how is the society going to know right from wrong?

And again, what are we going to say to our kids and grandkids when they ask, what were we doing when our religious liberties got stolen from us?

Well, let me ask you one thing that—do not take this wrong, but I've been down since reading this book because we are so far behind the curve, and there are so many fine, good

Christian folks, but they just—that topic, especially for the generation before mine and a little bit of mine, and we're pretty close,

I think I'm a little bit younger than you are, but that's okay. You know, we won't mention too much about that. This is a taboo subject.

This is not something you talk about in church. This isn't something you talk about in a religious context.

It's sort of for the hushed thing. And yet the next generation, the young people today, the attitudes that they have,

I was just—I was absolutely amazed, especially reading the chapters you had on the educational system, the universities,

Yale. I mean, did you go up to Yale to do any of that research? Have you—I was amazed at what you had to say about what's going on in their educational system.

I had spoken at Yale in the 90s, done some outreach lectures there, and was shocked by what

I saw in the mid -90s. So when I began to read in the mid -2000s into 2010, when

I began to read and research what was happening on the campus and then began to interact with students in many, many different settings, it basically has been a cultural shift.

The kids have lost a lot of the biblical bearing. You know how biblically illiterate so many

Christians are, well, it's been passed on to their kids. So they don't have that moral bearing. They know a kid at school that's a really nice guy, and the others bully him, so they have sympathies towards that kid who identifies as gay or lesbian.

And they're so influenced by the media. And, you know, in the media chapter in the book, we talk about the systematic brainwashing of the culture through the media.

I've been getting emails about something. Apparently, it aired during a recent American Idol show, and it was

Google, the search engine people, the website people. Google had an ad that was called

It Gets Better, and it was all these different famous people encouraging young people, hey, it's all right.

This is American Idol, and people have been emailing me saying, hey, wait a second. When Focus on the Family had their very benign co -wife commercial a couple years ago in the

Super Bowl, there was a national opera over it with Tebow in it and the whole bit.

And this has just aired, and nobody even bats an eyelash. So the cultural transformation has been stunning.

The young generation is overwhelmingly pro -same -sex marriage. You go onto a campus.

Well, in fact, I went to have a debate with a professor in Florida on same -sex marriage, should it be legal?

There were Christian groups that were approached by a ministry there on different campuses in the Orlando area, and the

Christian group said, if you try to have that debate on our campus, we will shut it down because it's too disruptive, and we'll get in the way of the relationships we're building with the homosexual community.

That's how far it's gone. The bad news, though, is the good news. So many families are affected.

They realize they can't run from this anymore. So many churches are realizing what's happening, that the bad news is it's gone far enough that people are starting to recognize we're in trouble.

We need an awakening. So let's feel bad a little bit, and let's get on our knees and then say, okay, what can we do to bring about change?

Was that debate that you were referring to with Dr. Small? Yes, if you call it a debate, yes, sir.

You may not be aware of the fact, but I played most of it over the past two dividing lines and would stop and comment.

And I ranked it up there amongst my top two lopsided debates

I have ever heard. I leave my debates out of that. There was one that was more lopsided than that.

But for a debate to be lopsided takes two things, a very good performance on one side, that was your side,

Dr. Brown, and self -destruction on the other, which was what your opponent did.

Now, I didn't watch the video. I downloaded it from YouTube and converted it to MP3 so I could listen to it while writing. But I couldn't see necessarily, and I don't know if the video would have picked this up, but when you started talking about the roles of men and women, you had to literally stop and you started,

I couldn't tell if you were interacting with the students or if you were interacting with Dr. Small. I was interacting with both, and I appreciate the kind words about the debate.

I was surprised by the performance of my opponent, especially when he picked the topic and it's previously debated it, and on record he said,

I'll debate anybody on this any time. And it was kind of arrogant in approaching it. So I was really expecting better arguments and to be challenged and to really be on my toes.

So it was kind of one -sided. Thankfully, we were defending something that is very sound in terms of marriage, the union of a man and woman.

But when I started talking about gender roles, there were a bunch of students on the right side of the lecture room, a couple hundred people, and it was just about totally full.

On the right side, which was his side, were a bunch of students who came in with him. And when

I began to talk about gender roles, he began to snicker and they began to snicker. And at that point,

I really began to lecture them. As you heard me, look at how far you've gone. Look at the idea that there are gender distinctions, that there are differences between men and women, that moms are different than dads and so on.

They were snickering at that. I think that is fairly typical in terms of the brainwashing and the cultural degeneration that's taking place on many of our campuses.

So when you actually asked the question, and we played this just on the last program, when you asked the question, which one can you just do without, father or mother, there was applause.

They were actually clapping at the idea that it's a good thing that you'd be able to...

Is that what they were clapping about? No, what happened was that the point was recognized.

In other words, the folks were applauding the point I was making. And some of these people that were there, they stopped with the snickering.

That was the interesting thing. When you break it down to brass tacks and talk about what this really means, that, okay,

Johnny and Jimmy may really care about each other, and they may really want to have kids brought into their home, and they really may want to love these kids, but two dads do not equal a mom and a dad.

They do not equal a mom either. And when you just break it down and say, okay, so these two dads, they have an adopted daughter or a daughter from a previous marriage, and now she starts to develop and she's growing up and she has her first period, or she's starting to develop and needs to get underwear.

Which of the dads is the one that she really interacts with that can help her through that period of time?

And which of the dads is providing a role model for her to show her how you treat the woman in your life like a husband would with a wife?

And you say there are plenty of marriages that are messed up, yeah, but you don't set up a system that guarantees the kid will have neither a mother nor a father, one of the others.

So it's an extraordinary transformation, and it's gone so far that just this week,

Peter Vidmar, who's a former Olympic gold medalist for the United States and was going to head up the Olympic mission, it was found out that he donated a couple thousand dollars to Prop 8 in California, saying marriage is the union of a man and a woman.

It caused so much controversy, he has had to resign from his role. You're not allowed to even say that marriage is what it is, otherwise you're going to be discriminated against and even boycotted.

Well, you brought that up in the debate, and it's exactly the case that you mentioned

Chick -fil -A donating a small amount of money to a candidate who believes in biblical marriage is the only term

I'll use of it, and there are actually campuses trying to get Chick -fil -A thrown off for having done that.

They donated brownies and sandwiches, that's what they donated.

You've got these major companies like Pepsi -Cola gives a half million at a time to the

Human Rights Campaign, a homosexual activist organization with a $45 million budget. They're celebrated for that, and according to the

Human Rights Campaign, if you say that marriage is the union of a man and a woman, you are a right -wing extremist.

The Human Rights Campaign has policies in writing that you have to affirm to get their stamp, so if you've got someone in your job that wants to transition, that's their word, from being a man to a woman, that you have to have special bathroom accommodations in place, and they recommend helping with insurance for sex change surgery, and if someone on the job has a problem that Sam is now

Sally, they could lose their job. They get massive amounts of money given to them, they are the darlings of corporate

America, and yet someone just says, you know, marriage is the union of a man and a woman, I support that. They're now getting boycotted.

It's an extraordinary cultural shift, and it's happening on our watch, which is the scary thing. Well, what's frightening to me, of course, is that what's going on was described very well a long time ago, when the prophet

Isaiah talked about those who call light darkness and darkness light, and we are seeing that all across the spectrum.

Folks, you're listening to Dr. Michael Brown. He is our special guest today. He has written a book, A Queer Thing Happened to America, and I have linked to it a number of times on the blog.

I will link to it again on the program today. We have it in our Amazon bookstore at aomin .org, and how is it doing, by the way?

I mean, what has been the response to it now that it's been out for a couple months?

Well, we've got off to a great start. Primarily, people have been buying it through Amazon. I just saw from the printer and distributor that we had a self -publish, even though I've written 20 books, nobody would go near this one.

We actually had a self -publish, so we put the book out, but we have a distributor, and we're looking now at a good amount of orders coming in for bookstores, because I didn't know if bookstores would even touch this, if it would be too hot for them.

So it's getting out to bookstores now, but Amazon has had it listed under gay and lesbian titles, as opposed to contemporary issues or social science or religious studies.

So it's listed under gay and lesbian titles, and it has been now 65 days in the top 100 gay and lesbian titles on Amazon, and quite a number of days it has reached number one in gay and lesbian nonfiction on Amazon.

So considering that we've had limited distribution, it's had a great response. It's got 80 reviews so far on Amazon.

And the funny thing is, when you read the reviews, the vast majority of the reviews by people who actually read the book, it's been an awakening for them.

It's kind of been a life -changing experience to read it, and they now feel the responsibility to do something.

And we have links in the book where you can go online and 100 different things to do to get involved, so we're trying to be practical with it.

But we've had some gay activist websites go after us and say, get this guy, and they'll start, suddenly we'll have one day like 10 bashing reviews appear by people who haven't gone near the book.

They'll say it was poorly researched, right? Only 1 ,500 endnotes, but poorly researched. Or the publisher made a big mistake publishing this, and then we remind them, we're the publisher, we did it.

So it's good. It is stirring things up. And the other thing is, we've been hearing from family ministries, different leaders, and they're excited.

They feel like this is now the textbook they can use to educate their constituency. So good start, but I'm sure when things really hit the fan, that's when it's going to get wild.

Because you know the opposition you get on this, and you know how ugly it can be. So we're praying and prepared.

Yeah, well, there's no question about it. Now, I've gotten this question a number of times.

Maybe you'll be able to give us some good news, but I've had a number of people saying, yeah, but when will it be on Kindle?

Oh, it'll be on Kindle within a month. Within a month, there you go. Yeah, I gave the approval for everything on the way to the e -book today, and I was told from there it's about a two -week process, and then another few days.

So within a month on all different e -book forms at last. Good, good. And this way, people don't have to worry about if they like the cover or not, because they'll have it on an e -book.

That's true. Yeah, that's... Yeah, anyway, now, it's such a wide -ranging book here.

Let's just run through... Let me throw the chapter titles out so people know what's there.

Give us what you... The one thing that comes into your mind, what do you want people to know about this particular chapter?

So we start off with a stealth agenda. Homosexuals don't want you to think there's a homosexual agenda, do they?

Your average homosexual man or woman out there, their main agenda is just, let me live my life and don't bother me.

There is, though, a massive, well -organized, well -funded, very targeted gay agenda.

It is a stealth agenda, and it is transforming America right on our watch. It is as real, if not more real, than the civil rights agenda and other agendas that have been before us.

That agenda got a real boost in 2008, didn't it? Oh, it absolutely did.

You know, in fact, the first shift happened in 2006 with a strongly Democratic Congress, and that's when some gay activists began to come out.

In fact, I end the chapter quoting from Matt Forman, who was the former executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.

And he says, yeah, you better believe there is an agenda, and we're coming your way. I mean, he comes right out and says it.

So there's been an emboldening. And then with President Obama, he... In fact, the introduction to the book from Stonewall into the

White House goes from the 40th anniversary of the Stonewall riots in New York City, 1969 to 2009, when our president invited 300 gay activists into the

White House and said to them, this is your house, and we're celebrating and remembering Stonewall, and we are going to see your goals fulfilled.

So the agenda took a lightning leap forward with the election of our current president.

Yeah, most people didn't know it. Now, if you say anything about it, Jewish Hitlers, which you mentioned in your debate with Dr.

Small, Christian jihadists and the magical effects of pushing the hate button. Don't...

Honestly, there's got to be a large number of folks on that side of this issue that recognize that there has been...

People have been trained to respond to certain words like homophobic or homophobe in a

Pavlovian way. There's almost no thought as to how people respond to these things.

All you have to do is say bigot, hate and homophobe, and the debate's over. It's quite extraordinary.

So what I do in that chapter is... Okay, first I say, you want to hear hate speech here? Listen to Fred Phelps. God hates fags.

God hates Sweden. God hates America. God hates Billy Graham. God hates... You want to hear hate speech? That's hate speech. Fine. But now let's look.

Here's what I had to say about the issue, and I'll lay it out graciously, kindly. Here are my differences. Here's why

I don't accept homosexual practice based on scripture, etc. And then the responses. You're a Hitler.

You're a jihadist. Pictures posted of me in a local gay newspaper where they've got my head on the body of a

Muslim terrorist with an AK -47. I just keep letting out, here's what we said. Here's the response.

And it's exposing the extraordinary intolerance and bigotry and hatred on the other side.

And my goal in the chapter was not to say there's only hate coming from their side. My goal is to say, quit pushing the hate button, because it is so irrational.

And you're right, it's absolutely Pavlovian. The moment we say anything, married, you know,

I really think that a man and woman are better suited to have babies than two men. That's hate.

That's intolerance. That's bigotry. Shame on you. Shame. That's the new thing. Shame, shame, shame. I don't even have a basis for talking about shame, but shame, shame, shame on you if you say that.

It's amazing to me. And the fact is, some Christians retreat from this.

Rather than saying, okay, this is persecution for righteousness' sake, or this is just a ploy to get us to be quiet, they're like, oh,

I don't want to be hateful, so okay, I won't say anything. It boggles my mind.

You get pastors and leaders, and I know they've got burdens and things they carry. We're both in active ministry.

We're both in church work. We understand that. But come on, guys, let's not retreat just because somebody calls us names.

We've got brothers and sisters having their legs chopped off and their arms chopped off and being tortured to death in prison for the

Gospel. Someone's going to call us names. We can't retreat. But what I feel we can do is twist the thing back to reality, because it's been twisted out of reality so that the homosexual community, they are exclusively victims, we are exclusively victimizers.

As things get uglier and uglier, and more venom and junk comes our way, and we see the ugly underbelly of homosexual activism, it's going to be clear we're not the victimizers.

In fact, we're the victims. The more gracious and lamb -like we can be, the more we can expose the intolerance and bigotry of the other side.

Yeah, you're quite right. Boys will be girls, we'll be boys. Undoing gender and teaching gay is good in our children's schools.

Just what, it was less than a week ago, I believe, a female judge in Australia, I'm sure you're already aware of this, gave the okay for a 10 -year -old boy to undergo sex change operation.

What on earth is going on as you discuss it in this chapter?

What's going on is we're talking about a fundamental assault on the most innocent people in our society.

We're talking about undoing gender distinction. We're talking about lining up kids by sneaker color rather than by gender.

We're talking about the full embrace of transgenderism in a 7 -year -old kid so that Johnny now goes to school dressed as Jane and uses the girls' bathroom and the girls' locker room.

We're talking about not only telling kids don't bully, don't pick on kids who are different, but telling them you need to embrace homosexuality, bisexuality, transgenderism.

You need to celebrate this. Schools need to nurture this. And there is no other side to the story.

There's no other side to the story that this might be bad for you. There's no other side to the story that you might grow out of it. There's no other side to the story that there's the possibility of change through various means.

And not only so, but courts have actually ruled over cases that came up in Massachusetts that it's more important for the schools to, quote, teach diversity than to honor the requests of the parents.

So if you say, you know, I don't want my 6 -year -old being taught about same -sex marriage. You know, some families have two moms, two dads, and all these other stories, king and king, where the prince is going to get married because he's going to become the king.

He can't find a girl that he likes, so he falls in love with a boy. And the last page of the book, the two of them are kissing. And these are read to our kids in school.

Maybe read to the kids of some of our listeners in school today. They don't even know it. Parents don't even know it.

So if the parents said, I don't want my kid there on that day, the courts have said, sorry. It is more important to, quote, teach diversity than to honor the requests of the parents.

It's an all -out assault on even the most fundamental gender distinction. And with this also, especially when you get to middle school, high school, massive experimentation now with bisexuality, especially among the girls, because that's kind of the hot thing in Hollywood, girl -on -girl kissing.

It's the new phenomenon from reports I've read. It's in the schools in ways that are almost mind -boggling.

And again, if you take exception to it, you're a bigot, you're a homophobe, and you're the one that needs discipline.

Yeah, you know, this past Sunday, my fellow elder took ill during the day, so I had the

Sunday evening service. And so I decided to preach through Genesis 19 and work through the issues that are relevant there and all the objections.

We did a fairly thorough job on that 10 years ago, but it's still obviously an important issue.

After the service, one of our middle school girls came up to me and said, thank you very much for addressing this.

We face this every day. Middle school. Yeah, in middle school. And it has happened so fast,

Michael, that people our age just go, we have a hard time believing it because they didn't do that when we were in school.

This type of thing wasn't happening in this way when we were in school, and yet it's happening now.

And it's so pervasive that I was, again, just blown away by just the breadth of the information you were providing in regards to our schools in that way.

I guess that continues on, especially, you know, once you get past the junior high, high school stage,

Chapter 4, something queer on our campuses from traditional academics and the arts to GLBTQ and Z.

What's that all about? What it's about is that now the activism is full -fledged on the campus.

Now this is anti -discrimination on the campus, so there's an activism in favor of homosexuality that is completely over to the point that you have campuses that have queer study programs.

You can major in these areas and take lots of classes in queer study and queer sexualities and much more encouragement for kids to come out.

So what I do in this chapter, and literally as I was going through some of this I started to get sick to my stomach, reading about these kids that identify,

I'm a 21 -year -old gender queer lesbian. I'm a 22 -year -old queer female male dyke senior.

I'm a 21 -year -old bisexual queer female. I'm a 20 -year -old bi -curious questioning female.

On and on, we're talking about multiple identities they have. And then some of the speakers that came in, there's one,

Leslie Feinberg, that's called the transgender warrior. And Leslie Feinberg is a woman that dresses and looks like a man, and is a practicing lesbian, but prefers not to be called he or she.

Rather, Leslie Feinberg is addressed as Z. Z. And that's the meaning of the acronym at the beginning of the chapter there.

At the level of the ideology that's being put forth here, here's a reading list of some of the...

One professor in her class on queer identities, books like Queer Families, Queer Politics, Challenging Culture in the

State, Exile and Pride, Disability Queerness and Liberation, In a Queer Time and Place, Transgender Bodies, Subcultural Lives, Disidentifications, Queers of Color and the

Performance of Politics. These are university classes. And again, this is the thing.

This is the new liberation movement. This is the new idealism. And to go against it, I've been told by evangelical

Christians on secular campuses repeatedly that when things come up in class, a professor will make a comment.

The entire class is with the professor, and this one Christian doesn't know what to say, and they keep quiet.

Some of them have even been given assignments. One gal was telling me in grad school she was given an assignment where everyone had to go out and wear something that would identify them as gay, either hold hands with someone of the same sex or kiss someone of the same sex or wear some pin, something that would openly identify them as being gay, to see how people treated them.

And this woman who was doing grad work went to the professor and said, you know, I'm a Christian, and in good conscience,

I can't do that. Can you give me another assignment? The professor was shocked. She said, you're the first one in the history of my class who's ever refused to do this.

It's unreal. Well, it's a big book, and we're only up to page 153.

Brokeback Mountain, the Fab Five, and Hollywood's Celebration of Queer. Now, this a lot of people do know about, and yet it is sort of the cutting edge.

It is where it sort of gives an indication of the directions that we're going.

But clearly, Hollywood is absolutely sold out to this. Yeah, there's a quote at the beginning of the chapter from the late

Elizabeth Taylor, who said that without gays, there wouldn't be any

Hollywood. This is an open secret, the large amount of homosexual men and women in Hollywood and the fact that GLAAD, the

Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, vets these scripts and makes sure that they're kosher, so to say, to misuse the word.

And Jared Berrios, who's the president of GLAAD, said it's not enough to be Will and Grace anymore. The benchmark is higher.

So bisexuality is the thing now, and some dating thing where someone's dating men and women at the same time.

That's it. And transgenderism, even though the psychiatric profession still says this is a disorder, gender identity disorder.

No, this is the new thing to be celebrated, born in the wrong body and so on. I was on Tyra Banks last year, asked to come on to discuss the issue of, quote, transgender children because of research

I've done on this book. And opposite me were two people, one woman who's a transgender advocate because of what happened with her daughter who went from female to male or the reverse, and then another woman who's had sex, a man who's had sex change surgery to be a woman and is now a doctor who performs this.

Those are the people opposite me the entire show. They bring out little kids seven, eight years old.

This is Joey. Joey used to be Jane. And the parents, the whole show, I had a five -minute segment to say, you know, the best thing is to help these kids be at home with their biological sex.

Wouldn't it be the best thing, rather than mutilating sex change surgeon hormones for life, for this little boy to be accepting of the fact that he is a boy in his body?

The ridicule, the venom, people on YouTube watching it say they want to do physical harm to me after hearing what

I had to say. The media is not only doing these overt things, but also there's something more subtle, which will be just the script of something like Law &

Order or ER or one of these shows. It'll be more subtle, and all the talking points are in there.

One out of ten is gay. You're born gay. Nobody can change. These Christians say you can change.

They're all hypocrites. They're greedy. Michael Medved, radio host and film critic, said a Martian gathering evidence about American society simply by monitoring our television would certainly assume that there are more gay people in America than there are evangelical

Christians. And it also assumes that every gay person in America is the sweetest, nicest, most creative, positive, friendly, wholesome human being ever to hit the world.

And every evangelical Christian is the most bigoted, hateful, spiteful, hypocritical human being to ever hit the earth.

And I don't even have a TV in the house to watch all cat stuff on internet and whatever.

But there's a very popular kid show now, Glee. It's on at a time when young people can watch it, and it's openly pro -homosexual to the point of having two boys recently passionately kissing on it.

And here it is right coming into our homes. And still a lot of believers don't grasp what's happening.

I had a question as I was working through the book, and I don't know if you ran into any information on it, but the thought crossed my mind, because you mentioned it more than once.

It came up in the debate as well. You go through this transitioning surgery, the transitioning process that they're talking about.

Now, they don't call it sex change. It's transitioning. But lifelong medical needs, hormone treatment, so on and so forth.

Have you run into any studies yet as to the long -term physical impact of that kind of thing?

I've looked for it, and there's nothing definitive that I'm aware of that's come out.

Of course, sex change surgery is a more recent phenomenon in terms of it in larger and larger numbers.

We remember the Rene Richards thing, the tennis player, way back when, when it was more of a shocker.

So now, I mean, you run into it so much. There are thousands of people in America that have had sex change surgery, and Chastity Bono, now

Chaz Bono, the best -selling book, Transition, How I Became a Man. Hey, James, Mike, just accept it.

This is reality. This is where it's going. Discapitulate. Get on with life. Have your nice church services.

You're not going to change things. That's what we're constantly told, but this much we know, that these people will never be totally what they want to be.

And in other words, a man who has sex change surgery will never be a fully functioning woman and vice versa.

And there will be hormones for life, and even if they're happy and self -adjusted, the key is help the person from the inside.

Don't mutilate your body. Go on hormones for life, and you'll never be a fully functioning male or female after that.

Get help from the inside out, but again, that's the bigoted extremist position somehow. Now I mentioned last week,

I think it was last week or it might have been Monday, I forget when it was, but I had never heard of the condition that you mentioned in the book of people who actually are so imbalanced inside themselves that they want to cut off limbs.

They don't feel that that limb belongs there. And I think you mentioned a doctor, I believe it was in the

United Kingdom, that had actually gotten into trouble because he went ahead and mutilated someone's body because they had just convinced him that it's just not supposed to be there.

I had never even heard of that, first of all. Have you brought that up in any dialogues that you've done and what's been the response?

The response is completely inconsistent. So here's the deal. It's called body integrity identity disorder,

B -I -I -D. It'll have other technical names. Some for sure call it body identity disorder. So you contrast that with gender identity disorder,

G -I -D, where someone's convinced they're born in the wrong body. Well, this person feels that they have, their mind map tells them,

I should not have anything under my right knee. I shouldn't have anything under my left elbow.

And they're tormented by this. I mean, it's a documented condition. They're tormented by it.

There have been people that have had a limb try to have a train run over it. A guy in England, famously, what he did is he froze his leg in ice until they had to amputate.

The first time they saved his leg, which totally depressed him. And the second time they got it. So he's been happy as a lark since then.

And on and on. They've obviously got a real problem here. They're tormented. They're suicidal.

And one doctor in England performed surgery on two people with perfectly healthy limbs that did limb removal for them.

So he's come under tremendous attack. So I asked on the Tyra Banks show, is that right?

If this person is convinced that they shouldn't have this limb, you know, is it okay to chop off the leg?

And they said, no, you shouldn't do it. So, okay, it's okay to pardon this, you know, chop off what's between the legs, but you don't chop off a leg.

They said, no, you shouldn't do that. Well, it was completely inconsistent. And Dr. Ann Richards, who himself, herself is a male to female and a doctor, wrote a scholarly paper published in a major journal saying that the similarities in the mental and emotional conditions between those with gender identity disorder and body integrity identity disorder are very, very similar.

And it is something we should press because it is, as one article says, collaborating with madness.

And there's a professor, Dr. Paul McHugh, a longtime head of the psychiatric department at Johns Hopkins University.

And McHugh said, surely the problem is in the mind, not the member. And he said, look, you don't give liposuction to someone with anorexia.

You help the person adjust to realities. And yet, this is the moral confusion and insanity that we're living with.

We aren't going fast enough here, so I'm going to—even with no commercials,

I can't imagine what it would be like if we had a regular one -hour program with about 38 minutes worth of time.

But now, seemingly, I got the feeling, reading Chapter 7, called

Speaking of the Unspeakable, Some Disturbing Parallels to Pro -Gay Arguments— Oh, hang on. We skipped Chapter 7.

I know. I know. But we're running out of time. I'm just trying—one of the reasons is because— I'll be more concise.

No, no. It's not your fault. I'm getting in here as well. But here's—I felt, as I went through this chapter, that you were walking on eggshells.

You kept repeating the same thing over and over again, saying, I'm not saying this is what you believe, but—so you know this is an explosive area to go into.

And what I'm talking about here is the fact that on an ethical, logical, moral basis, the arguments used for homosexuality are frighteningly similar, parallel, and in fact, in many cases, identical to the arguments used for behaviors that continue to be considered reprehensible in our society, at least for now.

And this is the famous slippery slope issue. Um, how did you try to address this without just simply throwing it out there as the slippery slope?

Well, to me, the slippery slope issue is one thing that's genuine and has to be addressed.

You know, if you're going to fundamentally change the meaning of marriage, for example, and say it's just the union of two people as opposed to the union of a man and woman, well, the inevitable question is what makes two such a magical number?

Why two? Why not three? Why not four? Or what about consensual relations? If I have the right to marry the one

I love, what about consensual relations between related adults, like a father and his grown daughter, et cetera?

So those arguments that come up, it's not even an argument. We're well down the slope already.

And people say there is no slippery slope. We're well down the slope and there's an avalanche behind us. But the question that I dealt with here, and again, this was research.

As I was studying, I discovered these things. This is not an area I looked at before. It was that when people talk about, quote, man -boy love, or a 30 -year -old man wanting to justify having relations with a 14 -year -old boy, and he's talking about how wonderful it was when he was 14 and how it was liberating for him, and now he does the same, et cetera, in the ancient

Greek society where you had the man -boy -mentor sex thing and this whole bit, I began to be stunned as I discovered that almost all of the major arguments, and by homosexual activists, to say you should therefore accept and endorse my behavior and my attractions for these following reasons were the exact, identical reasons, arguments that were used by pederasts, pedophiles, and by psychologists and psychiatrists saying, you know, this is not a disorder either.

And again, they're not talking about raping some kid. They're talking about what they feel is consensual and liberating and helpful. Now, of course, the moment you touch it, everybody misrepresents what's in the chapter.

So at the beginning of the chapter, I have in bold caps, Michael Brown is not equating homosexual practice with pedophilia.

Michael Brown is not calling all homosexuals pedophiles. And I wasn't trying to play mind games. I wasn't trying to make an association.

I was just trying to say, okay, you say I have to endorse homosexuality. Why? Because it's innate and immutable.

Well, that's what a pedophile says. Well, you say I have to embrace homosexuality because it's richly attested in many different cultures throughout history.

Well, that's what a pederast says also, and on and on and on. A pederasty should not be classified as a mental disorder, since it does not cause distress to the pederast to have these desires, and since the pederast can function as a normal, contributing member of society.

Those are arguments being presented right now to psychiatrists and psychologists who were involved in 73 in depathologizing homosexuality and saying it's not a mental disorder.

They are arguing the same thing for pedophilia and pederasty. So my argument at the end of the chapter is this. These arguments don't hold water.

These arguments in and of themselves prove nothing, and you can make no moral argument based on this.

So you're going to have to come up with some better arguments, because all of your standard ones can be used to argue for pedophilia, which all of us absolutely abhor and reject.

It was a shame that Dr. Sma would not engage any of those issues whatsoever.

Not so much that, but, you know, why? I mean, your question was perfect. Why the number two?

Oh, this is the polygamy. No, I'm just asking you why the number two. Well, I won't answer that.

It was very frustrating, but it made the point just as clearly as any answer he would have provided anyways, to be perfectly honest with you.

But that whole area, the quotations that you had from those pushing, what was the term?

Transgenerational love? No, intergenerational intimacy. Intergenerational intimacy.

There you go. Okay. See, I'm not even smart enough to come up with new ways of talking about these things, but other people clearly are.

The farther you get into the book, the tougher it is. I guess we should be honest and tell folks, this is not an easy book to read, is it?

No, it's necessary. It's written in a way that will keep your interest, but it's very painful.

And the goal is, it is a wake -up call. And it's basically putting you in a corner and saying, you can't avoid this.

You have to read this. You have to know what's happening, even if you don't want to. And then we can lift our eyes to heaven and say, all right,

Father, here we are. What is our role? What are we? Obviously, we're not trying to take over the world, but what can we do as witnesses?

What can we do in prayer? What can we do in speaking the truth? What can we do in terms of living a counterculture life?

But it was very painful and difficult to write, and yet I knew I had to write it as much as anything.

And the more opposition I got from publishers, from literary agents, from publicists, the more encouraged

I got that this had to be written. You know, the more they try to silence you, you've been through this, the more you know you've got the right message.

Well, you know, speaking of living counterculturally, Chapter 8 woke me up.

You can't live in this. You cannot be active in this society. Banking -wise, travel -wise, food -wise, without being involved with corporations that are bending over backwards to be 100 percent compliant with the

Human Rights Commission, which is the most misnamed, misnomered thing I can ever think of, but there it is.

The information you provided about major corporations, the amount of money that comes directly from our pockets into the promotion of homosexuality was...I

had no idea. It is just amazing. Tell us a little about it. Yeah, well, again, what got my attention is when the

Human Rights Campaign came to Charlotte, and thankfully they've moved out. They no longer hold their fundraising dinners in our city.

But when they came here, I was stunned to see, first, how bold and clear their agenda was being presented.

And this $195 -a -plate event sold out, like, 1 ,300, 1 ,500 people in the convention center in Charlotte, and sponsored heavily

Bank of America, Wachovia, two of the biggest companies in America. Heavy sponsors.

Duke Power, Duke Energy, our local power company, sponsoring them. And I laughed, because how are you going to boycott them?

And it was almost like a who's who's list of the biggest, best companies in the city, in the nation.

And look, let's talk about computing. Everybody from Microsoft to Apple scores 100 % approval with Human Rights Campaign that they meet their standards, that they operate according to the

Human Rights Campaign standards. And every year, the HRC has been issuing a

Corporate Equality Index. And when you say it's wrongly named, they're not concerned with the rights of, say,

Christians being killed in Darfur. They're not concerned with the oppressed widows in India.

They have one concern only, and let's say it as it is. It's the homosexual rights organization.

So starting in 2002, they issued a Corporate Equality Index, and only 13 major companies scored a perfect 100.

And by the way, they have raised the bar massively in terms of what they require, in terms of hiring, in terms of gender policies, in terms of recognizing partner benefits, and so on and so forth.

2002, 13 major companies. 2010, we're talking about some of the biggest companies in America, 305 scored perfectly with the

Human Rights Campaign Index, 100%. And basically, I just had to decide that there are certain places

I won't go to, or companies I won't work with, just because they're so open and blatant about it.

It's just my own conscience thing not to do business with them. But I couldn't print anything.

I couldn't research anything. I couldn't get online. I couldn't use my cell phone. I couldn't drive in my car, fly the plane.

I couldn't go anywhere, basically, without putting money into a company that supports gay activism.

And it's done in the name of diversity. Diversity, which becomes the code word for gay activism and even sexual perversity, all included under the rubric of diversity.

Now, I know that almost everybody in my audience already knows this. But let's talk just for a moment about this word that is being used in its exact opposite meaning from what the lexicon says it's supposed to mean, diversity.

We all hear it. It almost becomes somewhat of a joke. And yet it's not a joke.

Because when you hear it, it's actually a code word, like you just said, for something that's really the opposite.

I mean, the section you had in—which one was it?

Was it the stifling of scientific debate or Big Brother is watching and he really is gay on what's going on in people—you can't even work for an institute of higher education and outside of your duties express anything on this subject or you're going to get canned.

I mean, there is no diversity there whatsoever. That's what diversity is now, is the opposite of its real meaning.

You know, the book tour that I have launched, The Speaking Campaign, and wherever I go in conjunction with the book, we've called it the

Campaign for Religious Tolerance and Intellectual Diversity. The challenge is head out.

I had a national company with a local branch. They sponsored a gay pride event.

It's Caribou Coffee, a coffee company. They sponsored the local gay pride event. And I wrote to them and said, you know, you should really remain neutral on the culture wars.

We're not asking you to put a Bible in your stores, but just remain neutral. This is highly divisive here in the community. And they wrote back and said, no, no, we want to work with everyone in our community.

We want to show our solidarity with everyone in the community. So I wrote back and said, okay, great. We're having a wonderful family event in a few months.

We've got some good business sponsors that are going to be working with us. It's going to be a wonderful day to celebrate marriage, to celebrate teen abstinence, to celebrate the sanctity of human life beginning in the womb.

Will you sponsor us? And they wrote back and said, we will not work with you because we are inclusive. I have the letter.

Dan Cathy, who's the president and CEO of Chick -fil -A, now there's all this hatred and intolerance coming towards him.

He was going to speak at a St. Louis Chamber of Commerce meeting recently, and gay activists stirred things up and said, no, no, they donated money to a group that supports male -female marriage only.

And the Chamber of Commerce said, we cannot have him speak because we are pro -diversity.

So the tolerance has become utterly intolerant. Inclusivity is absolutely exclusivity.

And diversity is a code word for homosexual activism and the absolute militant opposition to anything that opposes it.

No diversity in diversity. It is one way only, my way or the highway. That's what diversity has become.

Now, the radicals who give their lives to the promotion of this lifestyle. I knew this was coming, and I saw it for the first time, the pages of your book.

There was a discussion of the condemnation of heterosexualism.

The people who would actually dare to think that a heterosexual relationship is actually best.

Are there really people that not, it's no longer. In fact, at one point you gave a list where both the idea of acceptance and tolerance were still considered homophobic attitudes.

Talk to us about what these folks really, really want. Do they really want just plain old equality, or are they actually going beyond that?

Of course, the equality thing is the mantra we hear constantly. Some will say the only agenda I have is equality.

And there's a problem with that concept also, because a man plus a man does not equal a man plus a woman.

You don't have equality no matter what you call marriage, no matter how you change it. It's actually in the children's chapter, children's school's chapter three, the

Riddle homophobia scale, developed by Dr. Dorothy Riddle. And she gives eight levels of attitude.

Four are homophobic levels, and four are positive levels. So nobody wants to be a homophobe.

I don't want to be a homophobe. So what are the levels of homophobic attitudes?

They are pity, repulsion, acceptance, and tolerance.

If you accept and tolerate, you are a homophobe. The positive levels are support, admiration, appreciation, and nurturance.

Homosexuality must not just be tolerated. It must be celebrated. It must be wholeheartedly endorsed.

Our Christian friends who think, I'm just going to stay out of the same -sex marriage debate. I don't want to get politically oriented.

I just want to warn you in advance. The next thing you're going to be told is that you're not allowed to say that homosexual men and women can change.

That's bigoted, and that means there's something wrong with them. And the next thing is you're not going to be allowed to say that homosexual practice is sinful.

That will be considered discriminatory. I was doing a radio interview with a guy last week that goes by the nickname of the

Gay Gandhi. He's a homosexual man from India. Very pleasant. We had a pleasant conversation. But he said, you know,

I'm thinking about it, and if you hold to the religious view that what I'm doing is sinful, talking about homosexual practice, he said, if you hold to the religious view that what

I'm doing is sinful, that is bigotry and discrimination. We will be codified as bigots.

If same -sex marriage becomes the law of the land, we will be viewed just like people would be viewed who said that a black man can't marry a white woman.

We will be the bigots. We will now have proven that we are the KKK and Nazis all rolled together in one, and anyone that thinks it's going to be fair treatment, one for all, ain't going to happen.

No, no, they're not looking for equal rights. They're looking for Uber rights. I've said that for a long, long time.

It's very, very clear. And it's coming, and we are going to have to count the cost. We only have a few minutes left.

We actually got started about a minute or so late, so we'll be going to about a minute after or so.

All right, a queer thing happened to America. You're trying to get it out there.

We've got it in our Amazon bookstore. Obviously, I have suggested it to everybody, but I'm telling you ahead of time, it's well written, but it's not an easy subject.

It is a difficult thing to have to think through these things. It can be troubling along those lines because this is what's happening in the world around us, and unless we're going to stick our heads in the sand, we have to be aware of what is happening around us.

The book's... Go ahead. What we need to do is this. You and I wholeheartedly agree that God is on the throne, that Jesus is

Lord, that God is not perturbed and shaken by this. So I think it's really important in the midst of this to really have an attitude of worship, to really look to the

Lord. And let's remember that when this started to rise in the culture 40 years ago, a lot of Christians looked at what was happening and said, it's over.

We're out of here. We're going to get raptured any minute. We're gone. So we had an escapist mentality, and gay activists and feminists and others, they had to change the world mentality.

They've largely succeeded. Let's not fall for that now. Let's not look at that and say, oh, this must be it.

Jesus is coming. Harold Camping could be right. I was going to say, I can guarantee if we tune in Harold Camping here in a few minutes, he's not going to be talking about this subject.

Yeah, so what we need to do is really recognize we have a role to play.

The biggest problem in America is not the presence of darkness, it's the absence of light. God has a plan, and if we'll align ourselves with Him, I really believe we're going to see a great harvest in the coming days of souls of homosexual men and women.

Just like I got saved in the early 70s in the Jesus People movement, radically converted out of drugs and rebellion.

We're going to see an outpouring of mercy in the homosexual community, and what I've really seen is that as people get so burdened about the activism and so sickened by it, it's driven them to their knees to begin to pray for an outpouring of mercy.

So what Satan means for evil, I believe God's going to turn for good, and I have hope that there's a positive end in sight.

Okay, but here's the big question. Let's say the cultural direction continues going the way that it is.

And I honestly believe we are already seeing God's judgment in our culture.

Some of this may be a part of God's judgment in our culture. We have had so much light. We have sinned against so much light.

What do we as believers do when we live in a nation under judgment?

And this is something that I ask you because you know the Old Testament prophets. You know what the remnant was.

You know what they had to face when judgment came upon Israel. It affected everybody. It wasn't just the unrighteous that were, you know, the

Babylonians didn't come running in going, are you righteous, unrighteous? Ah, kill the unrighteous. No, that didn't work that way.

Judgment takes a whole people away. How can we remain faithful? What is the best advice you have for how we can be lights in the midst of this type of darkness, even in the midst of a perverse generation?

First, we have to recognize that to save our lives is to lose them, that the goal is not to be accepted, to be liked, to be popular.

The goal is to be obedient at any cost or consequence. Second, we have to look ahead to the fact that ultimately the kingdom of God will triumph.

The day will come when Jesus will rule and reign, and the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the

Lord, so that even if it's a dark season now, we look ahead with hope. And then we ask ourselves, when the chapter is written about our generation, what will it say about me?

Will I be one of those who was a coward? Will I be one of those who sold out? Will I be one of those who counted the cost and went against the grain?

And often the church tends to function better as a persecuted minority. And when we get into the majority, we put our trust in the political system, we get lazy.

So I don't welcome the opposition. I don't welcome the persecution. I don't welcome the hardship that could come and the shaking of the judgment.

But that's often when the gospel advances the best. So if I forget about the American dream and all my personal success and instead look at this as a wonderful opportunity for the gospel to be advanced, it'll happen.

And then the last thing is that perversion does have a destructive effect, that the breakdown of the family does have a destructive effect.

So if we can model wholeness and godly families, people will look to us and realize there is something about God's order that they don't have.

So in the midst of the darkness, light can shine, but you're absolutely right to put it in very sobering terms.

Well, Michael Brown, you know, there are people on both sides of another theological divide that find our friendship to be a very weird thing.

I was not—I'm not going to say a queer thing, but it's a weird thing. I mean, there are people on my side that go, no, wait a minute, you do realize that he's involved in this over there.

And in fact, I think you're going to be doing an interview pretty soon with Jerry Johnson about Finney, right? Oh, right, right, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, he had written to me about that. And so you and I do not see eye to eye on everything we've debated.

We still need to someday get around to doing the full debate and stuff like that. And yet, anybody who saw us on The Jewish Voice and dealing with the subject of the

Trinity, listen to us today, how often we make reference to each other, and we've got this friendship and this deep admiration for one another, and they just go, how does that work?

And I'm sort of glad that we make people uncomfortable along those lines personally. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And whenever anyone asks me about Calvinism, I say, here's where you go to the two shows that we did on Dr.

White's broadcast, because it's without interruption, and you'll get to hear both of us lay it out loud and clear. And just this week, we've been offering on the line of fire again the debate that you and I did together on the deity of the

Messiah issue on Jewish Voice. Yeah, look, here's the deal. It's going to get really hostile in the days to come, and we need each other, and we need each other's back.

So let's have our differences, let's sharpen each other, learn from each other. But if Jesus includes us in his family, man,

I want to rejoice in that, and the admiration and appreciation is quite genuine on my end. Well, and I thank you very much.

A certain package arrived today. Hopefully a package will be arriving for you as well. I want to learn from you.

I enjoyed, in fact, I will tell you this. You might want to note this down, the most unusual place that anyone has ever been listening to one of your debates.

I listened to the entirety of the debate with Dr. Small while riding a bicycle three times up to the

Snow Bowl in Flagstaff, Arizona, which is an ascent of Mount Humphrey. So that was 39 miles and 5 ,700 feet of climbing is when

I was listening to that. So maybe the lack of oxygen at the top may have influenced some of my interpretations, but especially when he did his closing statement and he quoted from his father.

Oh, he ended it with a stupid joke. I was just about to commend him. I know! I've never heard anything like that in my life.

And you handled it very, very well. I only criticized you at one point on the program. And that was, you were just about to say, you said something, you made the hug comment.

And I stopped and I said, OK, by this point, this is where Mike is a little bit too nice.

See, I would have figured out, don't go there anymore with this guy, because as you know, he took your comment and his comment got vulgar.

Yeah. And I said, I saw this one coming. I saw this one coming because, you know, when

I saw it coming was when they introduced him and I heard his students in front of him. And when you have your students in front of you, it's almost like you have to perform for them.

And that's exactly what he did. But you did a tremendous job there. So I've got a lot of extremely positive comments from playing that debate.

So do you have any more debates coming up? We are working on them.

It's really difficult to get a campus willing to open up. We've had doors shut in New England.

We've had doors shut in New York, doors shut in the D .C. area. It was very difficult to open the door there.

But we are in touch with folks in quite a few states now and said, listen, anything I touch on anywhere in the book, you set that up and I'm happy to debate it.

And then there are always things in the works for Jewish debates and things like that. We've got constant online things going on.

But as far as these issues, it's so volatile. It's really extraordinary. It's almost like debating a rabbi about Jesus being the

Messiah. It's like a tame thing now. You know, I have an exact parallel to that.

Have you ever tried to arrange too many Muslim debates in churches? People are like, could you all pay for insurance for that?

And I mean, seriously, it is very difficult to find places that will host a Muslim debate for rather obvious reasons.

Understood. And then, of course, it's going to be the worst case scenario in their minds. Amazingly, this debate on this campus,

University of Central Florida, with a professor from another campus only happened because a Christian professor booked a room for ministry there, came under heavy pressure for booking the room.

There are organizations actively trying to shut it down. I have the correspondence from a gay faculty member activist there saying he's going to do everything in his power to shut it down.

Vice presidents from the university got involved. The day before the debate, there was a conference call with 11 different people.

Not me, by the way. 11 different people discussing whether the debate could even take place. They finally said it will take place, but there have to be four policemen there.

The head of campus police was part of the discussion on the phone that day. And what was the discussion?

Same -sex marriage, should it be legal in America? Which is a major subject before a whole nation today.

Again, it's so volatile, and I'm hoping that the level of opposition that we faced can be used to expose the intolerance and bigotry coming against us.

And then let's get the truth out. Truth is always going to triumph over lies, and light's always going to triumph over darkness.

I know exactly what those calls were like, because it took more energy for me to make sure that my debate with,

I think it was Zulfikar Ali Shah at Duke, just happened than it took to do the debate itself.

All the opposition, all the fear, all the people not wanting that on the campus, etc.,

etc. Free speech is something people will talk a lot about, but it is a privilege that we need to pray

God will continue to extend to us, because it is in grave danger. Michael Brown, thank you so much for giving of your time to us today.

And thank you especially, and I've already thanked you privately for this, but this book is a labor of love, a labor of service to the body of Christ.

I am recommending to the listening audience, you need to get this book not only for yourself, but give it to your elders.

Give it to your pastor. They need to know what's going on. Sometimes we have blinders on.

Sometimes those in the ministry are so focused upon what's going on in the church. Sometimes we don't see these things.

Sometimes we would see them if we had the background to be able to see them. And so get this book.

We have it at amazon .aomin .org. You can get it there. And Michael Brown, thank you very, very much, sir.

My joy. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. All right. Thank you. God bless. And thank you for listening to The Dividing Line today.

Wow, that was a fast hour, and we still didn't get to every chapter. It's a huge book.

I highly recommend it to you. As I said, it's not easy to read, but it needs to be read, because this is the society that we live in.

We'll be back again, Lord willing, next Tuesday here on The Dividing Line. We'll see you then. God bless. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602, or write us at P .O.

Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the

World Wide Web at aomin .org, that's a -o -m -i -n -dot -o -r -g, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.