Dr. Michael Brown and "A Queer Thing Happened to America"

The Cultural Emergency Behind *A Queer Thing Happened to America*

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. I started a little bit late there. We were trying to get our guests. Dr Michael Brown on Skype and We we don't know what happened there But it mattereth not because we still have the good old phone system.

Dr. Brown, thank you for being with us this evening, sir. Oh, thanks. Dr. White for having me on. I appreciate it. Well, I tell you I Think I mentioned to you that One of the most difficult books I ever wrote Actually co-authored was the same-sex controversy a decade ago now and when I saw Your book first of all when I saw it the cover Do you offer that in a brown-paper version.

That was actually when we did focus that was the one that won hands-down, but then our next question looks good. Yes. Yeah I'm not sure how many pastors are gonna have that it's facing out on their bookshelf.

You know what I mean? Yeah, well, you can always take the outside cover off. Of course It's a lovely hardcover underneath. Yes, it is. Yes it is but when I when I saw that you had you had come out with this book, I I Just knew how oppressive and difficult it was to deal with this subject ten years ago and Having now read the entirety of this tome and it is a tome it is it is a huge book.

I Just am utterly shocked at the speed Michael but at which things are happening. I mean your stuff is so up-to-date. It's And it left me breathless as as I was working through this book to see how far things have gone.

When you started this Did you did you come in were you surprised as you did your research to see how far it had gone? I went from shock to shock right up to the final editing of the book and then from when the like someone just changed the Rules of the game and said your side loses if we win and do anything about it.

Shouldn't the love shocked when I started researching news. I've got it. I've got to include this I've got to get this other book and I thought this is not gonna end anytime soon now. No, I mean you could keep updating this all the time now.

There's just so many things I'm looking at the table of contents here. And I'm thinking about so many things all at once trying to cram it all in thankfully We do not have any hard breaks something that you know all very very very well we don't we don't have those constrictions so we we can we can get a lot of information in here, but looking at this book the first thing it crosses my mind is I Am concerned because the vast majority of Christians just don't want to think about this subject.

It's just we do not this does not define who we are we do not get up in the morning and start thinking about homosexuality and things like that and we getting Christians to recognize That this is this massive cultural movement and that our children are in danger here.

People don't want to talk about it. It's it's like oh, come on. Can you can't you talk about something else? Do you encounter the same thing? Oh, of course, you know on the one hand There are people that recognize the importance of this and they're constantly saying speak up.

Thank God for what you're doing. But all the time I said, I guess I'm gonna have to go somewhere else talk about me a week. We deal with moral and cultural issues and this often is going to come up especially with my book coming out.

Someone needs to sound the alarm. We need to address this. We're gonna have to apologize to our kids or grandkids and I was at a pastor's meeting in Raleigh, North Carolina yesterday pastors and business leaders and one black pastor Asked this question.

He seems to be a radical thinking guy. He seems to be activist in his orientation, but his thing was we're not going to change the culture. Why bother? Let's let's concentrate on loving each other and blessing each other.

Doing good to the household of faith trying to get unity and try to win the loss. Why even bother with the culture? I said sir, if we had that mentality 150 years ago, you'd still be a slave and white men would still be committing atrocities.

This is the great cultural issue that's facing us and for me I didn't go looking for this. This came knocking at my door. This came knocking at the door of our city with gay pride parade. This came knocking at the door of our city with the biggest gay activist organization coming our way and talking about how they're going to transform America back by all the biggest companies in our city.

It came knocking at my door in our school system here in the greater Charlotte area. With a Southern Baptist Church leaving the Southern Baptist Convention so that they could begin to ordain Homosexuals into ministry our doorsteps no matter which way we turn and we have a moral Responsibility to speak up to do what's right if we do not provide a moral conscience for the society.

How is the society going to know right from wrong? And again, what are we going to say to our kids and grandkids when they ask what what were we doing? What our religious liberties got stolen from us?

The Debate Over Cultural Engagement and Moral Responsibility

Well, let me ask you one thing that I Do not take this wrong but I have I've I've been down since reading this book because we are so far behind the curve and and there are so many fine good Christian folks, but they they just That that topic especially for the the generation before mine and a little bit of mine and we're pretty close I think I'm a little bit younger than you are, but that's okay.

You know, we won't mention too much about that. Um, This is this is a taboo subject this is not something you talk about in church. This isn't something you talk about in in a religious context. It's sort of for the hushed thing and yet the next generation the young people today the attitudes that they have.

I Was just I was absolutely amazed especially reading the chapters you had on the educational system the universities Yale. I mean Did you go up to Yale to do any of that research or have you what I was Amazed at what you had to say about the about what's going on their educational system.

I had I had spoken at Yale in the 90s. Done some outreach lectures there and was shocked by what I saw in the mid 90s. So when I began to read in the mid 2000s into 2010 when I began to read and research what was happening on the campus and then began to interact with students in Many many different settings.

It basically there's been a cultural shift that the kids have lost a lot of the biblical bearing. You know how biblically illiterate so many Christians are what's been passed on to their kids, so they don't have that moral bearing.

They know a kid at school. That's a really nice guy and the others bully him so they have sympathies towards that kid who identifies as gay or lesbian and they're So influenced by the media and you know in the media chapter in the book We talk about the systematic brainwashing of the culture through the media.

I've been getting emails about something apparently it aired during a recent American Idol show and it was Google the the the search engine people the website people. Google had an ad that was called it get off these different famous people encouraging young people.

Yeah, it's alright this American Idol and people have been emailing me saying hey Wait a second when focus on the family had their very benign a life commercial. Yeah couple years ago in the Super Bowl there was a national uproar over it with with with Tebow in it and in the whole Bit and and this is just aired and nobody even bats an eyelash.

So the cultural transformation has been stunning the young generation is Overwhelmingly pro same-sex marriage you go on to a campus well in fact I want to have a debate with a professor in Florida on same-sex marriage should it be legal there were?

Christian groups that were approached by a ministry there on different campuses in the Orlando area and the Christian group said if you try to Have that debate on our campus We will shut it down because it's too disruptive and we'll get in the way of the relationships for building with the homosexual community.

That that's how far it's gone the the bad news though is the good news so many families are affected. They realize they can't run from this anymore so many churches are realizing What's happening that the bad news is it's gone far enough that people are starting to recognize.

We're in trouble. We need an awakening, so let's feel bad a little bit. Let's get on our knees, and it's okay. What can we do to bring about change? Was that debate that you're referring to with dr. Small?

Yeah, if you call it a debate yes, sir. You may not be the topic you may not be aware of the fact but I I played most of it over the past two dividing lines and Would stop and and comment and I I ranked it up there Amongst my top two lopsided debates.

I have ever heard I leave my debates out of that there was one that was more lopsided than that, but For a debate to be lopsided takes two things a very good performance on one side. That was your side dr. Brown and self-destruction on the other which What's your opponent did now?

I didn't watch the video I download it from YouTube and converted to mp3 so I could listen to it while writing, but I Couldn't see necessarily, and I don't know the video would have picked this up, but when you started talking About the roles of men and women you had to literally stop and you started I couldn't tell if you're interacting with the students, or if you're interacting with dr. Small.

I Was interacting with with both and I appreciate the kind words about the debate and yes I was surprised by the and it's previously debated at any time and was kind of arrogant in approaching it. So I I was really expecting better arguments and to be challenged and to be on my toes.

So something that in terms of marriages you need to start talking about gender roles. There are a bunch of students on the right side a right side which when I began to talk about gender roles. He began to snicker and they began to snicker and at that point I I really began to lecture them as you heard me look at how far you've gone, but look at hearing at that Washing and the coat so when you actually asked the question and we played this just in the last program when you when you asked the question.

Which one can you just do without? Father or mother. There was applause that they were actually Clapping at the idea that that that it's a good thing that you'd be able to is that what they were? Is that what they're laughing?

What have no what happened was in other words that the folks were applauding the point? I was making and and some of these people that were there occurring that was the interesting thing when it's also when you break it down to brass tacks and Talk about what this wrong either.

Her previous marriage and now she starts up and she has to develop and needs to get underwear. Which of the dads is the one that you really interact which of the dads is providing a role model? You treat the woman in your life like a husband would with a wife and you say there are plenty of marriages that are messed up.

Yeah, but you don't it will have neither a mother or the others. So it it found out that he donated a couple thousand dollars to prop eight in California saying marriage is the union of a man and Woman it caused so much controversy.

He has had to resign from his role. You're not always otherwise, you're gonna be discriminated against and even boycott it. Well, you brought that up in the debate and it's it's exactly the case that you mentioned Chick-fil-a donating a small amount of money to a candidate who is believes in in biblical marriage is the only term I'll use of it and There are actually campuses trying to get chick-fil-a thrown off for having done that.

That's what they donate you've got these these Major companies like Pepsi Cola gives a half of the 45 million dollar budget. They're celebrated for that and according to the human rights campaign. If you say that marriage is the right-wing extremist in your job that wants to transition.

That's their word from being a man to a woman that you have to special bathroom accommodations in place and they recommend helping with insurance for on the job has a problem that that Sam is now Sally's amount of Money's given to them that they are they are the darlings of corporate America and yet someone just says, you know marriage.

You know, they're now getting boycotted. It's an extraordinary cultural shift and it's it's happening on our watch, which is the scary thing. Well, uh, the the what's frightening to me, of course, is that what's going on was described very well a long time ago.

When the Prophet Isaiah talked about those who call light darkness and darkness light and we are seeing that all across the spectrum. Folks you're listening to dr. Michael Brown. He is our special guest today.

He has written a book a queer thing happened to America and I have linked to it a number of times in the blog. I will link to it again on the program today. We have it in our Amazon bookstore at a omen org and How is it doing?

By the way? I mean what has been what has been the Response to it now that it's been out for a couple months to a great start Amazon I just saw from the printer and distributor. We had a self-published even though I've written 20 books.

Nobody would go to this one. We actually had a self-published cap. But we have a distributor and it we're looking because I didn't know if bookstores would even touch this if it would be to Amazon. It's had it listed under gay and lesbian five days on Amazon and the funny thing is when you when you read the reviews by people life changing experience to read it and they now feel Practical with it to get this guy Hit the fan that's when it's going to get wild because because you know the opposition you get on us and you know You know how how ugly it can be.

So we're we're praying and prepared. Yeah. Well, there's there's no question about now for I've gotten this question a number of times. Maybe you'll be able to give us some some good news. But I've had a number of people saying yeah, but when will it be on Kindle?

Oh Beyond Kindle within a month within a month. There you go. Yeah, we I gave the approval for For everything on the way to the e-book today and then another few days. So within a month on all good and this way people don't have to worry about if they like to cover.

Yeah, that's yeah anyway now. There's it's such a wide ranging book here. Let me let's just run through. Let me throw the chapter titles out so people know what's there give us what you. The one thing that comes into your mind.

What do you want people to know about? This particular chapter so we start off with a stealth agenda. Homosexuals don't want you to think there's a homosexual agenda. Do they get a woman out there? Their main agenda is just let me live my life and don't bother me right on our watch.

It's not more real than the civil rights agenda and that agenda got a real boost in 2008 and and eight didn't it? Oh. It absolutely did. You know, in fact the first shift happened in 2006 with a strongly Democratic Congress and that's when some gay activists began to come out.

In fact, I end the chapter quoting from Matt Foreman who was the former executive director of the National A Gay Lesbian Task Force and he says yeah, you better believe there is an agenda and we're coming your way.

I mean he comes right out and says it so there's been an emboldening. In fact the introduction to the book from Stonewall into the White House goes from the 40th anniversary of the Stonewall riots in New York City 1969 to 2009 when our president invited 300 gay activists into the White House and said to them This is your house and we're celebrating and remembering Stonewall and we are going to see your goals fulfilled.

So the agenda took a lightning leap forward president. Most people didn't know it now if you say anything about it. Jewish Hitler's. Which you mentioned in your debate with dr. Small Christian jihadists and the magical effects of pushing the hate button.

Don't honestly there's got to be a large number of folks on that side of this issue that recognize that there has been a. People have been trained to respond to certain words like homophobic or a homophobe.

In a Pavlovian way, there's there's there's almost no thought as to how people respond these things. All you have to do is say bigot hate and homophobe and the debates over. It's quite extraordinary. So what I do in that chapter is okay first I see you want to hear hate speech here.

Listen to Fred Phelps. God hates fags. God hates Sweden. God hates America. God hates Billy Graham. God, you know, you want to hear hate speech? That's hate speech fine. But now let's let's look here's what I had to say about the issue and I'll lay it out graciously kindly here are my differences.

Here's why I don't accept homosexual practice based on scripture, etc. And then the responses you're a Hitler. You're a jihadist. You're you're you know. Pictures posted of me and local gay newspaper where they've got my head on the body of a Muslim terrorist with an ak -47.

And Here's the response and exposing the extraordinary intolerance and bigotry and hatred on the other side and My goal in the chapter was not to say there's only hate coming from their side. My goal is to say quit pushing the hate button because it is so irrational and you're right.

It's absolutely Pavlovian that you the moment we say anything married, you know I really think that a man and woman are better suited to have babies than to. Shame on you shame. That's the new thing shame shame shame.

I don't even have a basis for talking about shame, but shame shame shame on you. If you say that's amazing to me and the fact is some Christians retreat from this. Yeah, rather than saying okay. This is persecution for righteousness sake or this is just a ploy to get us to be quiet.

Like oh, I don't want to be hateful. So, okay, I won't say anything. It boggles my mind you get pastors and leaders and I know they've got burdens and things they carry. We're both in active ministry.

We're both in church work. We understand that but come on guys. Let's not retreat just because somebody calls us names. We got brothers and sisters having their their legs chopped off and their arms chopped off and being tortured to death in prison for the gospel.

Someone's gonna call us names we can't retreat but what I feel we can do to reality because it's been twisted out of reality so that the homosexual community they are exclusively victimizers as things get uglier and Uglier and more venom and junk comes our way and we see that the ugly underbelly of homosexual activism.

It's going to be clear. We're not the victimizers. In fact, we're the victims the more gracious and lamb like we can be the more we can expose the intolerance and bigotry of the other. Yeah, you're quite right.

Boys will be girls will be boys. Undoing gender and teaching gay is good in our children's schools just what it was less than a week ago, I believe a Female judge in Australia. I'm sure you're already aware of this.

Gave the okay for a Ten year old boy to undergo sex change operation. What on earth is going on. As you discuss it in this chapter. What's going on is we're talking about a fundamental assault assault on the most innocent people in our society.

We're talking about undoing gender distinction. We're talking about lining up kids by sneaker color rather than by gender. We're talking about the full embrace of Transgenderism in a seven-year-old kid so that Johnny now goes to school dressed as Jane and uses the girls bathroom in the girls locker room.

We're talking about not only Telling kids don't let them you need to embrace homosexuality bisexuality. Transgenders you need to celebrate this schools need to nurture this and there is no other side to the story.

There's no other side to the story that this might be bad for you. There's no other side to the story that you might grow out of it there's no other side to the story that there's the possibility of change through various means and.

And Not only so but courts have actually ruled over cases that came up in Massachusetts that it's more important for the schools to quote teach Diversity than to honor the requests of the parents. So if you say, you know, I don't want my six-year-old being taught about same-sex marriage.

You know some families have two moms two dads and and all these other stories king and king where the prince is going to get married. Who's going to become the king? He can't find a girl that he likes so he falls in love with a boy and the last page of the book the two of Them are kissing.

I and these are read to our kids in school. Maybe read to the kids are some of our listeners in school. Today, they don't even know it parents don't even know it. It's the parents that I don't want my kid there on that day the courts have said sorry.

It is more important to quote teach diversity than to honor the requests of the parents. It's an all-out assault on even the most fundamental gender distinction and with this also, especially when you get to middle school high school massive experimentation now with Bisexuality especially among the girls because that's kind of the hot thing in Hollywood girl on girl kissing.

It's the new phenomenon the reports I've read. It's in the schools in ways that are almost mind-boggling and and again if you take exception to it You're a bigot. You're a homophobe and you're the one that needs discipline.

Yeah, you know This past Sunday. My fellow elder took ill during the day. And so I had this Sunday evening service and so I decided to preach through Genesis 19 and Work through the issues that are relevant there and all the objections and You know, I've we did a fairly a thorough job on that ten years ago, but it's still obviously an important issue.

After the service one of our middle school girls Came up to me and said thank you very much for addressing this we face this every day middle school, yeah in middle school and you're it has happened so fast Michael that people our age just go we have a hard time believing it because They didn't do that when we were in school this this type of thing wasn't happening in this way and when we were in school and Yet it's happening now and it's so pervasive that I was again, just just blown away by by Just the the breadth of the information you were providing in regards to our schools in that way I guess that continues on especially you know once you get past the Junior high high school stage chapter for something queer on our campuses from traditional academics and the arts to GLBTQ and Z.

What's what's that all about? Now the activism is full-fledged on the campus now now this is anti-discrimination on the campus. So so there's an activism in favor of homosexuality that is completely over to the point that you have campuses that have queer study programs.

You can you can major in these areas and and and take lots of classes and in queer study and you know queer sexualities and and Much more encouragement for kids to have to come out. So what what I do in this chapter and literally as I was going through some of this I started to get sick to my stomach.

Reading about these kids that identify. I'm a 21 year old gender queer lesbian. I'm a 22 year old queer female male Dyke senior. I'm a 21 year old bisexual queer female. I'm a 20 year old by curious questioning female.

I'm talking about multiple identities they have and then some of the speakers that came in there's one Leslie Feinberg that's called the transgender warrior and Leslie Feinberg is a woman that dresses and looks like a Man and it's a little practicing lesbian called he or she.

Rather Leslie Feinberg is addressed as Z Z. I think of the acronym at the beginning of the chapter there at the level of the ideology that's being put forth here. Here's a reading list of some of the one professor in her class on queer identities books like queer families queer politics challenging culture in the state Exile and pride disability queerness and liberation in a queer time and place transgender bodies self-culturalized.

Disidentifications queers of color and the performance of politics. These are University classes and again, this is the thing. This is the new liberation movement. This is the new idealism and to go against it evangelical Christians on secular campuses repeatedly that when things come up in class a Professor will make a comment the entire Club and this one Christian doesn't know what to say and they keep quiet.

Some of them have even been given assignments. One gal was telling me in grad school She was given an assignment did not what identify them as only identify them as being people treated them and said, you know I'm it.

Can you give me another sock? She said you're the first one in the history of my class who's ever refused to do this. Mm-hmm. It's unreal. Mm-hmm I. Well, there's there's it's a it's a big book and we're only up to page 153 Brokeback Mountain the fab five and Hollywood celebration of queer not this a lot of people do know about and yet.

It is sort of the the cutting edge. It is it is where? Sort of gives an indication of the directions that we're going. But clearly Hollywood is absolutely sold out to this. But at the beginning of the chapter from the late without gay at the gay and lesbian Alliance against defamation.

Vets these scripts and make sure that they're they're kosher. So to say to refuse the word and and and Jared Berrios is the president of glad said it's not enough to be will and grace. Anymore, the benchmark is higher.

So bisexuality is the thing that where someone's dating this is a disorder gender identity disorder. No, this is the new thing to be celebrated born in the wrong body and so on. I was on Tyra Banks last year.

Asked to come on to discuss the issue of quote transgender children because of we sit me were female to male another woman who's had sex and it's now a doctor who personally the entire show. It's seven eight years and the parents say, you know.

The biological sex wouldn't be the best thing rather than mutilating sex change surgeon almost for life for this little had to say. Yeah, any creative positive friendly wholesome you it's on at a time when young people can watch it and I Had a question as I was working through the book and I don't know if if you ran into any information on it.

But the thought crossed my mind because you mentioned it more than once it came up in the debate as well. You go through this Transitioning surgery the transitioning process that they're talking about now.

They don't call it sex change. It's transitioning but Life-long medical needs. Hormone treatment so on so forth. Have you run into any studies yet as to the long-term? Physical impact of that kind of thing.

There's nothing different phenomenon in terms of it in law a rich right thing. There's the tennis player way back when when now I mean you run into it so much. There are thousands of people in America that have had sex change surgery and and how I became a man.

This is to hate Mike just accept it. This is reality. This is where it's going. Discapitulate get on with life. Have your nice church services. You're not going to change things. That's what we're constantly told but This much we know.

That that these surgery will never be a fully functioning woman and vice versa and there will be hormones for life. And even if they're happy and self-adjusted. The key is help the person from the inside don't mutilate your body go on hormones for life.

And you'll never be a female after that get help from the inside out. But again, that's the bigoted extremist position somehow now. I mentioned last week I think it was last week or it might have been Monday I forget when it was but I had never heard of the condition that you mentioned in the book of people who actually are Are are so imbalanced inside themselves that they they want to cut off limbs.

They don't feel that that limb belongs there and I think you mentioned a doctor I believe it was in the United Kingdom that had actually gotten into trouble because he Went ahead and and and mutilated someone's body because they had just convinced him that it's it's not supposed to be there.

I Had never even heard of that. First of all, have you brought that up in any dialogues that you've that you've done and the response. The responses is called body integrity identity disorder technical name some for short call it body identity disorder.

So you contrast that with gender identity disorder G ID when it's a documented condition, they're tormented by it. There have been people that have obviously got a real right, but you don't and dr And little and emotional conditions between those with gender identity disorder in the mind, right?

Gender Identity Disorder, Body Integrity Identity Disorder, and Medical Ethics

We aren't going fast enough here. So I'm gonna Even no commercials I can't imagine be like if we had a regular regular one-hour program with you know about 38 minutes worth of time but now Seemingly I got the feeling reading chapter 7 called speaking of the unspeakable some disturbing parallels to pro-gay arguments.

One of the reasons because No, no, it's not me your fault. I'm I'm in I'm getting in here as well. And and but here's I felt as I Went through this chapter that you were walking on eggshells. You you kept repeating the same thing over and over again saying I'm not saying this is what you believe but so, you know, this is a Explosive area to go into and what I'm talking about here is the fact that on an ethical logical moral basis the arguments used for homosexuality are Frighteningly similar parallel and in fact in many cases identical to the arguments used for behaviors that continue to be considered Reprehensible in our society at least for now and this is the famous slippery slope issue.

How did you try to address this without just simply throwing it out there as the slippery slope? It has to be addressed. You know if if you're gonna fundamentally change the meaning of marriage for it's opposed to the union of a man and magical number.

Why two why not three why not four or what about consensual relations? If I have the right to marry the one I love what about consensual relations between related adult? It's not even an argument. We're well down the slope.

We're well down the slope behind us. Yeah, but the the question that I dealt with here and studying I discovered these things. This is not an area I looked at before what was that but quote man boy your old man one?

He's talking about how wonderful it was liberating for him, and now he does the same etc in the ancient Greek society. We had the man boy I began to be all of the major agreements that are used by Homosexual activists to say you should therefore accept and endorse my behavior and my Rick attract Identical reasons arguments that were a psychologist and psychiatrist saying you know this is not a disorder either and again.

They're not talking about raping some kid. They're talking about what they feel is consensual and liberating and helpful. But he misrepresents not equating homosexual practice with pedophilia. Michael Brown is not calling all homosexuals an association.

I was just trying to say okay. You say I have to endorse homosexuality. Why. Because it's innate and immutable. Well, that's what a pedophile says well. You say I have to embrace homosexuality because it's richly attested many different cultures throughout history.

That's that's what a pederast says also and and on and on and on a pederasty should not be classified as a mental disorder. Since it does not cause distress to the pederast to have these desires and since the pederast can function as a normal Contributed those are arguments being presented right now to psychiatrists and psychologists who were involved in 73 in Depathologizing homosexuality and saying it's not a mental disorder then my argument at the end of the chapter is this these arguments don't hold water.

These arguments prove nothing and you can make no moral argument based on this. So you're gonna have to come up with some better. It was a shame the dr. Small would not engage any of those issues whatsoever.

Not so much that but you know why I mean your question was was perfect. Why the number two? Why is that? Oh, this is the this is the polygamy. No. I'm just asking you why the number two well I won't answer that it was very frustrating.

It made the point just as clearly as any answer he would have provided anyways to be perfectly honest with you, but That whole area that the quotations that you had from those pushing. What was the term?

Transgenerational Intimacy there you go. Okay. See I I'm not even smart enough to come up with new ways of talking about these things but other people clearly are it is The Farther you get into the book the tougher it is.

I mean, let's be on we should I guess we should be honest and tell folks. This is not an easy book to read. Is it no, it's necessary. It's written in a way that will keep you and and the corner and saying you can't avoid this.

You have to read this you have to know what's happening. Even if you don't want to and then we can lift our eyes to heaven and say all right father here We are what is our role? What are we, you know, obviously we're not trying to take over the world.

But what can we do as witnesses? What can we do in prayer? What can we do and speak in the truth? What can we do it is in terms of living a counterculture life? But it was very painful and difficult to write and yet I knew I had to write it as much as anything and the more Opposition I got from publishers from literary agents from publicist the more encouraged I got that this had to be written.