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2023 Equipping Conference with Costi Hinn | Session 1&2 This stream is created with #PRISMLiveStudio
Okay, welcome to our opening night of our 2023 equipping conference. We're going to get started this evening with a few songs of worship before we introduce our guest speaker. So would you please stand as we sing.
How firm a foundation? How firm a foundation. Ye saints of the lord a dismay will still use thy pathway. Shall not all sufficient shall be. Shall not you may be seated. All right, let's begin with a word of prayer.
Our father we are so grateful to you for the many blessings that we get to enjoy to gather here in freedom in this place. Looking forward to a weekend being fed from your word. And it is our heart's desire that you would speak to us through costi that you would speak to us in your word.
That you would be magnified and glorified through our fellowship our worship. And all that we learn here this weekend. We pray your blessing upon this time. We thank you for the the faithful hands that have worked so hard behind the scenes to prepare this for us.
And we pray that you would be honored and glorified through all that transpires through today and tomorrow and into sunday morning. We praise you for your goodness for your salvation. And for your grace and pray that you it would be magnified today in our lives in our minds And in our hearts for the glory of christ our king in his name.
We pray. Amen. All right a couple of announcements welcome by the way to our equipping conference. We are excited about this and we have one of these a year if this is your first one. We do this around the end of may 1st of june every year and you'll see Announcements in your booklet as well as on the screen of upcoming conference next year.
Let me give you just a heads up for the schedule of events in your booklet. You'll notice it just says session one session two. Costi didn't get the titles of the sessions to me until about two hours after I had printed these yesterday.
So i'm going to just ask costi to give us the title of every session at the beginning. So, you know what to. Uh, so, you know what to write down in your booklet. Tonight's q a which is session two. Is not questions from the audience.
You should have three by five index cards on your table. At some point there you can write down questions through tonight and into tomorrow and then at the end of our time tomorrow. Our very last session will be a q a will will be i'll be asking costi some of those So at any time today or tomorrow you can come and drop those Cards with your question on it on the table at the front here.
And those will be incorporated into the final q a tomorrow afternoon. I think that's all I have. So now I will introduce costi costi grew up in a.
Uh.
Christian and I would use that term loosely and put it in air quotes family probably one that you have heard of the hymn family. And he has an inside view of a segment of christianity that most of us do not.
He serves as the teaching pastor at shepherd's house bible church in chandler, arizona. He is a graduate of midwestern baptist theological seminary and he serves as president and founder of for the gospel.
He hosts a weekly podcast providing sound doctrine through digital media and he is the author of defining deception. Which was your first book right. With anthony wood and then god greed and the prosperity gospel.
Which is the one that you got there. And you can come up and costi will autograph that for a hundred dollars. Prosperity gospel dies hard, doesn't it? He has a book titled more than a healer. A book knowing the spirit and then two children's books the king who found his self-control and in jesus name I pray now one of those is not available yet, right?
The king who found his self-control is not available yet, but in jesus name I pray you can get on amazon and he and his wife christine have five children. You please welcome costi in.
The guys in our church. So many times. All right. First of all, thank you for for showing up. This is great. There's a lot of other things you could be doing right now one in particular that I almost stopped and say that.
There is a yard sale. And it's a good one. It is about 12 minutes away and there was a standing bear there was an eagle in full spread. There was a four by four or a five by five. And a lot of it and they were serving food and I was driving by.
I thought my wife was an old Driving on. And I just looked and I thought it's so good. She's not here with me because she would just want to move out here. And just slow down the pace of life and be at that yard sale.
I kid you not. So I told gina and nate and the gang I made it and there was a lot of distractions on the way here. But seriously, thank you. I grew up in the pacific northwest. So being here is beautiful flying into spokane.
Was like flying home and we are big outdoorsy types. And so thank you pastor. Jim. Thank you so much for letting me serve. This is a real privilege and I have habitually called him Jim Osman because that's just how i've been saying it.
But I have been rebuked and corrected Jim osman uh, it just rolls osman just rolls off the tongue, so Uh, there is that I will uh write something in the inside of your books if you ask me to. I don't sign bibles.
That is something I don't do and i'll tell you a funny story. I don't know if these are being recorded, but we can cut this part out. Uh, was that a major conference? I won't name the conference and people were coming up to me asking to sign their bibles and It's not a jaded like came out of the prosperity gospel thing.
So now, you know, it can never do any of that stuff. It was just simple. I think if I would have been asked on that side of it, I still would have said no. But I looked at this young woman who had her bible and she asked me to sign it.
And I said listen, I don't sign bibles only jesus should he's not here right now in person. So. But i'll write you a note or sign a book And she had opened her bible and when I looked at the names that had already signed it I was mortified and I thought none of none of those men are ungodly.
All of those are my heroes, too. Please don't tell them I said that.
And.
You talk about the prosperity gospel dying hard. So now every once in a while people will come up to me and they'll go. Hey, will you sign my bible and I go they're like just kidding. We heard the story.
So Man no offense to anyone but uh. Yeah, thank you so much again for your warmth your hospitality and your kindness. The sessions that we're going to go through are all a little different. The progression is going to work this way.
Pastor Jim asked me to share my testimony to start if that's redundant for some of you. Have you heard the story. Then just listen again and test to see if i'm still accurate and all the details line up besides that.
In the next session i've titled it.
Three.
Historical heretics or three of history's heretics and. What I want to do for you in the second session is present to you three particular heroes that influenced my life our family. The prosperity gospel and the ministry and walk you through bios on them.
So you have a good handle of that? There are going to be some moments where you're going to sit there and think hey That's what this guy does or that's what she does or I have totally seen that play before.
And what you'll come to find if I achieve the goal and if the material is clear. You will come out of that session thinking wow, there's really nothing new under the sun. These are just new faces and new modern strategies on one of the devil's oldest tricks.
So that'll put a lot of us at ease while it doesn't change the fact that these are dangerous players and dangerous movements. That'll help you and then we'll begin to open our bibles more and more throughout the sessions all the way, of course until sunday when we'll walk through a biblical text from the book of ephesians, but the first two sessions are Highly story driven or history driven and so bear with me on that.
It's been a number of years since i've done any type of conferences where I just share my testimony. So this is really Uh kind of you to entertain the story once more if you haven't heard it before. I hope that it encourages you.
But even still in all those details my joy is ahead as we open up god's word. And also in the q and a's as we talk through questions and the practicals if you will Go to the lord with me one more time in prayer.
Let me ask for his blessing on this particular session and the one to come with the q and a father. I want to pause as well. I know pastor jim prayed already, but I want to recognize that without you.
I wouldn't be here. None of us would be that you are the sovereign god who saves. You are a god of mercy and your grace, which is literally your unmerited favor has Found us that you would save us that you would love us.
That you would then give us the privilege of being a part of The body of christ and be used to be given spiritual gifts get to use those to edify and build up one another all of that Is grace upon grace upon grace and so in this Testimony session, would you help me to be?
Accurate to be clear. Would you also edify those who hear? There is a side to this that we loathe and it is to go back down memory lane. But our purpose is to give you glory through it. Our purpose is to think about where we've been.
And then give you glory and honor and praise for where we are now. All of the credit is yours all of the glory the honor the praise. Every detail orchestrated by your Masterful hand and so what would we do?
But pause to say thank you. And ask your blessing on this session and the q a to come. I pray all of this in jesus name. Amen.
So.
To go back to kind of a point in time in my life where I felt like I was on top of the world would be helpful for you. And then i'll rewind the tape and we'll go back to my childhood, but there was a point now some 17 to 19 years ago.
I haven't thought about it. The last time I I shared this with people formally in a setting like this. It was about 15 years total. So I think we're getting close on 17 to 18 years, but we were at the grand resort laganese In greece and we had flown into athens.
We were on a ministry trip and used to do layovers in really beautiful places. Rent a lot of suites or lease suites or in other times, you know houses and whatnot. But in this particular point, we're at this hotel where you have the presidential suite.
You got prime minister suites. You got every kind of person in government suite so you can picture that. And i'm standing there and I remember vividly I was wearing a a shirt that was a canadian shirt.
It was a hockey shirt. Because i'm canadian and love hockey and I had these clear non-prescription glasses. Because I thought I was like judah smith before he was judah smith. And everyone was looking trendy using those kind of cool glasses and i'm standing there and we're at the grand laganese resort.
And I remember thinking that I had made it like this was my life. I had arrived and I was young still.
And so.
I knew that there was some time before I would see the fruition of whatever I believed I was going to be but I was old enough to think. Like this is my trajectory. I've got it made.
I was flying on a private gulfstream jet regularly staying in the nicest hotels in the world. Working for my uncle who was benny hinn at these crusades and services. I was a catcher which is you catch the people who are falling and I was his assistant on the road.
So that meant carrying bags checking out of hotels helping with whatever was needed. And we had you know The louis vuitton luggage the kind of whole deal. If you ever watch one of those crazy reality shows and you see The kardashians or these other people and you wonder like who in the world spends five grand on luggage.
Uh, we did so those are realities for me and i'm just living the dream and thinking like this is life.
I was so confident that it was the john 10 10 abundant life. This was god's will if other people didn't have it. Our job was to go and show them how they could if they never really reached that it was their problem.
They didn't have enough faith. They didn't have a good belief system or they weren't believing and coming under our super anointed Covering and the irony that day. And that trip is that we were staying on the aegean sea which is connected to portions bodies of water in which paul Is on his missionary journeys and the way i've always described it in post after conversion is Standing there right near a body of water where paul had preached the gospel many times.
The only problem was we weren't preaching anything near what paul was preaching and it was years later that The lord would open my eyes. But that gives you a picture Of what I imagined life would be forever.
Growing up my father his name is henry pastor to church in vancouver british columbia. He had along with the family emigrated technically refugees. We found out just a couple Months ago that they were refugees.
They escaped war in israel. They arrive in toronto canada and as refugees they begin this life in which they go from having a lot in jaffa israel To then having nothing in canada. It was my dad filing for his pension in canada with my mom.
And my mom called me and said hey i've got big family historical news that kind of changes the narrative. I said what she said your dad is actually filed in this country in canada As a refugee so it maybe helps you understand a little more of what life was like for your dad.
They didn't immigrate it wasn't like from jaffa israel and a good life over to canada right into things. It's these refugees that come over from the middle east and they are going to make a life for themselves and that ties into Kind of other ideas in which even for my uncle and many others in the family.
Proving themselves becoming wealthy achieving the american dream. Climbing the ladder if you will of some sort of lifestyle is very Normal for refugees or immigrants who come here and say whatever it takes.
We're going to have a better life. We're gonna have a new life. And so my Uncle ends up finding his way. Through these kids at school having very odd experiences and he finds acceptance within the charismatic movement and charismatic circles.
Katherine coleman becomes a big hero of his and he sees this woman Who has this power and this aura about her if you will and he says that's what I want to do. That's my calling in the meantime. The family is not at all involved with that sort of branch of Belief they were raised greek orthodox.
And so that was the belief they came to canada for peace not war. They came for education not religion. And so my uncle goes kind of on his merry little way and slowly. But surely different family members begin to buy in to at that time preaching.
Generally, uh repent and believe gospel with a katherine coleman dream kind of hovering above the whole thing and in those days There were a lot of guys that would preach the gospel just like now. Justin peters told me one time when we first started talking he said brother I've heard your uncle preach a better gospel than some baptist ministers.
It's just all the things that come afterwards if he would just stop there.
You know.
That was very much A reality and so in whatever version of the gospel being preached the family starts one by one buying in my dad being one of the last. And when he jumps all in he serves my uncle benny he goes into ministry.
Following in my uncle's older brother footsteps and that leads him on a path down to orlando florida. That's where I was born. Even though I was raised in vancouver british columbia. He goes down to orlando and my uncle had started the church orlando christian center.
It was a mega church all sorts of things going on down there and from there. My dad plants a church in vancouver british columbia. It was called vancouver christian center and it was the same As orlando christian center.
It was just the canadian version. And so we had healing services on the last sunday night of every month. You bring the sick you line them up on your right and left he would Jet out once in a while and do healing crusades.
The teaching and preaching was very similar to what you would hear from Kenneth hagan kenneth copeland if you looked throughout history and read books or saw teaching from oral roberts. These were the heroes of the faith for the family and so I grew up in a very much word of faith prosperity gospel mixed church.
We were kind of up and coming a lot of people would come to the church. They liked the church but there were also a lot of problems we would have issues with. What we would call dead churches whether it was baptists or other denominations even some in the assemblies of god denomination.
There was the revoking of papers there was distance even from some general pentecostals from our family. All of it labeled as well. You guys are doing shady things or you've gone too far. Well the way that I grew up dealing with that was really simple.
We were attacked criticized ostracized and Separated from because we were being persecuted. Ultimately the devil had it out for our ministry and these people who went to dead churches. Or these other types of pentecostals that were really just jealous because we had better more powerful spiritual gifts than them.
We're really all seeking to undermine our ministry our power our authority. And we were just like jesus just like the apostles. We were being persecuted. I grew up in a home that was in the ballpark of 10 000 square feet.
Everything we drove was a benz and we lived the high life and enjoyed life. I viewed the church as A family no doubt. My friends were in the church. I was part of the youth group. I sang songs. I watched the donut man.
And mcgee and me and all of these other different shows that maybe some of you remember if you've heard of the adventures in odyssey. We listened to that too very much in line with things that other people would grow up with.
We sang some hymns. We sang some contemporary music we sang some stephen curtis chapman and michael w smith and whatever else was cool at that time. And I remember even growing up that there was a radio station just over the border in washington state.
It was called praise 106 .5 and they had this guy that would come on and he was called the bible answer man. His name was hank hanegraaff, which of course we all know but He would criticize my uncle. And he would criticize sometimes my dad.
And we'd listen to him and I remember my dad saying, you know, this guy is just attacking us this bible answer man Is just a a hater on all that god's doing at our church. There's another example of just a jealous leader who can't stand what we're doing and all the while I was in these early years of my life watching as my uncle grew Exponentially in fame as my dad throughout canada and traveling with my uncle and going different places around the world.
Was very well known very powerful. We were very wealthy and so I very much believed that everybody else was wrong. And we were right. We're in the center of the universe. Over the course of my teenage years my dad more and more traveled with my uncle because my uncle had left his church.
And began to travel full-time and do crusades. And it was around that time where we got heavily involved from an employment standpoint and become very close. We were always really close with family because in the middle eastern family and with the prosperity gospel ties running through it.
I've often described it as a mixture between the royal family and the mafia because you had the the wealth and the family attachment of the royal family. And even the attention the focus and the care that would happen there because we were kind of it top of the hill.
And then you had the mafia because you just never turn your back on family. You always roll with family blood is thicker than water every other one-liner you could think of. You absolutely always side with family.
Throughout those teenage years. We traveled with uncle benny. He always treated me incredibly. Well, I was very close with him and most of my other uncles very tight with my cousins. Everything was incredibly Great to say it in just a simple way.
But there were certain cracks that were forming in the dam throughout those years. In the early years of my life There were kids that would say, you know Your uncle's a false teacher. My dad says that your dad is a liar and a scammer and I would just think you know These are these kids that go to dead churches.
They just need the holy spirit. As I got older things got a little more serious. There was a gal in my high school class Who was on the swim team? She was healthy. She was popular and she ended up getting a form of cancer and I remember Asking my dad if we could just go heal her like just go pray for her.
She's one of our friends like just go handle it and I remember that being met with kind of a well.
They you know, they don't really believe like us and they don't really have enough faith. And in my mind.
And even in some of my responses with family, I would think and say Well, you know, let's just go do it. Then they'll all believe it. We'll just heal her. And I really did believe that we could heal when I was at healing services even at our church and people would come up imagine it would never happen here, but just imagine in your What jp calls your sanctified imagination?
Uh, keep it sanctified but you know people lined up on my right and my left and as they come up, you know. They're walking across the platform and you pray for them and they fall and the ushers are catching and the whole thing and you're sitting There as a kid just thinking wow, like look at these people.
Everyone's crying. You're singing hallelujah or whatever song just keeps playing and you would invite friends and people would come and I remember our church would grow by like 200 people on sunday nights because all the people from other churches would come to get their healing or to get prayed for.
And all that did was serve as more evidence.
That.
To experience the power of god. They've got to come here. And to experience healing and real church and real ministry, where do they go at the end of the day here? And so I thought as even a young man that a lot of people go to these different churches because they have to or they've got friends their family there, but really.
They all want to be at our church. They all know who the best in ministry is who the most powerful is who has the real anointing and the real authority.
At that particular time I didn't go against my family. I didn't think oh, you know, they couldn't heal my friend, but I call it a crack in the dam. Because it opened up just a small amount of doubt that what we say we could do.
We're not doing. I heard certain family members boast that they would verbatim they would say I have all nine gifts and if you read the new testament, there's more than nine spiritual gifts, but uh, there are about nine let's say miraculous gifts or that's what they were referring to those in particular and They would say these family members in particular that we can operate in all of these at any given time.
And so the amount of arrogance the amount of pride.
It was so deep.
And so wide that it permeated every ounce of our conversations in the way that we viewed ourself. In ministry, and so if we didn't do things there was only one particular person to blame. It was never us.
It was always the person who didn't have enough faith who didn't believe like us who wasn't obedient or submissive enough. There were multiple moments throughout my teenage years and these are stories.
I haven't told much yet because.
Um.
There was too close still and there were still some conversations I need to have but i've had all those now. Where particular people left our church and these are fascinating conversations for me to have now decades later.
And at the time whether it was our church or another family member's church, they would be threatened that death heart attacks cancer prodigal children. Their family losing their salvation losing money would befall them would come upon them if they left our apostolic covering.
And I remember years later. I was at a particular concert and I ran into one of those families and we had a really big conversation and There were things that the lord had done in their life and opened their eyes, too.
But that was the way it was. That's why I would say it was very much like the mafia and that if you leave this you're done you're dead. And divine judgment would find you. As high school was winding down. We were coming out of this era where a local newspaper came after my dad.
He hit the news nationally. There was a helicopter flying over our house at one point and I remember because we were in the basement. We had this really nice built-out basement. We had ping-pong table and foosball and like bubble hockey because I was canadian again.
And we had this big theater room. We're all in the theater room and we're basically watching the news about us and There was a helicopter flying over our home.
They released a magazine article that was titled jesus the devil and henry hymn and it was about my dad. It was in a business journal and we were so proud of it.
They would fly a helicopter over our house because they were jealous of how big it was.
God's blessing on a man of god was seen through how much money he had and how big his house was. And the world needs to get with it and church folk are just jealous. And so someone hired a helicopter to fly over our house because they're really just jealous about all that we Had.
As I come out of my high school years, there's really only one thing I want to do at that time. And it's to play baseball. I was playing baseball throughout high school. I wanted to play in college and Eventually probably play pro or go as far as I could.
My dream was to be in the big leagues and so like any kid, I knew I had to go to college or at least figure out a way to get drafted and before Seeing my dream come true. There was something that I needed to do and this is again part of the belief system.
If I wanted god to bless me if I wanted him to do what I desired then I would need to make an offering of some sort or to Give him my first fruits and so I remember talking with family and seeking wise counsel and The wisdom was you should take a year.
And you should give it to uncle benny. You should serve him in the ministry go work for him and then go to college play baseball and it made total sense to me. As I thought if I want god to give me the desires of my heart.
And I want to play baseball and I want to be in the big leagues and I wanted this and that and the other then I need to sow a seed of faith into his ministry and Money wasn't really what I was thinking of.
I thought the greatest gift that I can give because i'm part of the family Is to lay down my dream to give my time and serve him and so before going to college I took a year off. I joined his ministry and that's when I was a catcher and was serving with him.
That year in particular it was a year plus we ended up staying in some of the nicest hotels in the world. That's where i've talked about a hotel called the burj al arab in dubai. We stayed in the royal suite.
It was 25 ,000 a night u .s. And we had other suites along with it and a lot of those other suites were around a thousand dollars per night. The reason I know those numbers and remember those numbers is because I was assisting helping to check out of hotels and Checking in and I was standing with my dad in our room or his room actually because I ended up staying in the royal suite.
Because there were several bedrooms and it's a massive square footage and one of my well My brother-in-law's brother married my cousin. This is a side note, but There are two brothers michael and theo culianos that'd be Another topic for another time, but michael is head of jesus image and they're kind of a very up and coming.
They've already upped and gotten Uh, they're absorbing a lot of my uncle's partners and a lot of his ministry momentum. Jesus image is michael culianos and jessica my uncle benny's daughter and then theo married my sister.
And so greek brothers. Well, michael was on the road with us as well. So michael and I Were staying in the royal suite uncle benny had his monstrous room and we had ours. And I remember just living the dream.
It was like living in one of those weird Music videos where like there's a bunch of nice cars and bentleys and all these crazy hotels and it's just it's worldly. And it's wild and you're out there living the dream and then it's ministry and you kind of turn the switch on and off.
Where it's time to minister so you go be spiritual and then it's time to live it up. And so you just go and enjoy yourself and we flew all over the place at one point. We stayed at this hotel called villa deste and It was on lake como which is where like george clooney lives.
It's in italy beautiful place. There's a one of the james bond movies was filmed there and we're enjoying that. We're flying all over the world. We're staying in.
The nicest hotels at one point we were staying at uh, the hotel de paris in monaco in monte carlo and I remember going to the The casino next door and gambling and like hanging out and just enjoying the life there.
I shopped at versace. I mean everything we bought was just high caliber and high class and this was the life. And during that season there were a lot of prophecies made over my life that I would be next that I would be the era.
Parent, I was the oldest costy. There's four of us and one of them one of my cousins passed away a couple years ago. But there's four costies and the way that it works in the family is you name your first born son after your father.
So my grandfather's name was cost andy or costy and full name is cost andy. And my dad had the first costy that's me and there's like significance to that. And so i'm to carry on the family name out of all the cousins and typical like my big fat greek wedding stuff.
It's like that Times 10.
Traveling with him. Working for uncle benny being around the family. Uh, I would be prophesied over and so I remember one time oral roberts laying his hands on me. And to give you a full picture. I I wasn't fully bought in.
To man, I gotta get oral roberts to lay hands on me the actual story and I I wrote this. It's in the opening chapter of the book and it's about the most ridiculous story and the most childish story. But it gives you a picture of where I was at.
I'm working for my uncle and i'm back in the green room and i'm eating cheez-its or something like that. And my dad just comes bursting in and oral roberts is about to head out. And he wants me to be prayed for so that oral roberts can give me a double portion or whatever.
I was getting really old and I just remember his big sweaty hand big hands. He's a big guy. And he laid it on my head and said something. I don't even remember but it was some sort of prophecy double portion stuff and There was another night where this guy named steve brock.
He was one of my uncle's famous singers. Made this big elaborate prophecy that i'm to take over my father's church. And then i'm gonna take the healing ministry from all the family. To heights that it had never seen and all this stuff and everyone's crying and i'm like sweet i'm gonna be rich.
I'm gonna be next. I'm gonna live in a big house. I really just want nice cars and. Okay, and I want to keep flying in private planes and all the while. The way that the ministry was framed. There were nfl players.
Big league players. There was at one point where we were flown somewhere. And a particular owner and i'll i'll spare their identity on purpose just to respect them. I don't know where they're at now in life, but They owned a major food chain and two major sports franchises.
And we flew into where they lived they came onto the plane and one of the family members had cancer and they had Particularly given a massive donation. And my uncle prayed for them. And so all the while I remember going to without walls church before.
Uh, you know paula white and my uncle got caught on camera or whatever with a photo holding hands in rome.
On the stage at without walls was carl everett who at the time was playing for the red socks. There were multiple players that were around that orbit. Daryl strawberry before he hit the conference circuit.
I don't know where he came from, but now he's everywhere. I'm like him. Okay, like as long as you're preaching the right gospel, but I remember you, you know. There there's this whole gauntlet of figures.
At one point I don't know how many you guys remember. Sister sister remember t and tamara that show. I watched it as a kid. They ended up on stage at a crusade because they were kind of in the circle.
So you have celebrity you have athletes you have major wealth and all the while no matter what weird things you see going on. Or what scam you think might be happening based on what someone said is going on.
How can all of these people who are famous who are wealthy who are influential? Be getting taken. There's no way.
I thought living the dream i'd seen some things there were some troubles. But all the while I would keep fighting those with yeah, but all of these people. It must be true. There was a couple of moments in particular that ended up being used by the lord later on.
One was in india in particular. There was over a million people at the service. This is on youtube. We had leased out a bunch of land and the people went as far as the eye could see true story and There were barricades between the stage and I said my dad one night took me down to the healing lines he worked a lot of the healing lines and He takes me down there and I remember it feeling like a scene.
Of course. It's my younger mind and it's it's all Overwhelming because i'm at that age and i'm having these experiences emotionally where i'm like something's going on. But I don't think it is and i'm caught between family, but I would describe it as one of those Scenes from my private ryan or a war movie where it just seems like chaos is happening.
Bullets are flying everyone's yelling things are tinging off walls and there's a bunch of noise. Except it was in this whole section where people were crying out for healing. There they put the sick in one area.
It's similar to the healing crusades in the arenas where they'd put all the wheelchairs in one section. At this particular instance, they had put in this one particular section all of the sick. And it was not first world sickness in the medical Term of things it was more Man-made and handmade and smelt and people were there and I just remember walking through with my dad.
And it was like a war zone and I looked up and this moment seared in my mind.
My uncle was on stage singing or something like that. He's in this perfectly white suit. The suits were made by monsieur bijon in beverly hills. Mr Bijon had a really nice yellow rolls royce and he had a bentley.
A lot of other cars too. But the presidents would shop there and we'd go get these suits custom-made. They had a little dove. He had the niru, you know. The little niru collar that looks like a james bond villain with the suit and all that stuff and I looked up perfectly white suit.
The choir's all in blue behind him. And again, not in the moment, but years later that flashed in my mind as the dichotomy between The man who could heal and who had the anointing or if he was accused of saying he could heal he'd say i'm not the healer.
Only god is I just pray for people all that stuff all the masterful pr and years later that moment came to bear on my mind, but in all of that I still Pushed the thoughts push the questions away. After all that ended up going to play baseball.
I played in california for a few years at a community college there lived with my uncle for a bit drove one of my.
Aunts.
Cadillac escalades and Lived the dream and then started playing baseball. And my parents ended up moving there getting another place. And so now we're in orange county in canada two places two homes living it up at that time.
I drove a Really nice hummer that had tvs in the screens that i'd turn on even though no one would be in the car. I had rims that because I saw what sammy soso was driving who was a pretty famous baseball player at the time.
I found out what rims he had. I bought the same ones. I mean the whole thing was just all done up. And I go and the lord opens the door. I didn't realize that he was doing it. Although I thought he was because I was praying to a god somewhere.
That he would open the door for me to play baseball. So I end up at dallas baptist university and at that time I would say you could call this particular category in my testimony the coach. My coach who's still there dan hefner was a old school raised in iowa.
You know families involved in ministry old school small town guy. Who probably thought my family was crazy, but was really nice and didn't really say it that way. But he would have us go through discipleship and have us do bible memory verses and things of that sort.
So I joined a bible study. I was part of the team enjoyed playing loved the game loved being there. And one day I remember him calling us all up in a huddle and it was a practice. We're playing a scrimmage game.
We'd call him seven eight nines where you basically play inning seven eight and inning nine. He put a runner on second and kind of staged the whole thing and put pressure on you guys as players and everybody was a little nervous because there was a new york yankee scout there of all teams as well if it was like.
At that time the royals who got good. I know but you know if it was just some, you know random team. Uh, but it was a yankee scout and he was there to watch a player named victor black. Who ended up being a supplemental first rounder a guy named ryan goines?
One of my buddies who ended up playing for the blue jays. He's there to watch good players but if you Play well on a day where a scout's there to see other players. You can get put on the list or you end up getting drafted.
And so all these guys on the team are real uptight and coach heifner calls us all up and goes Hey guys, listen relax. Okay. I know there's a scout here. I know it's the yankees, but listen. Relax. Proverbs 21 one says the heart of a king is like channels of water in the hand of the lord.
He turns it wherever he wishes. God controls kings. God controls scouts. God controls whether you get drafted or not. So just go out there play the game. Have fun. He's sovereign. Don't worry about it.
And I remember in my mind thinking like what in the world are you talking about like sovereignty? Like and if there is how do I get on the good side of that and get it to work for me because I'm so used to god being a a puppet in a sense on a string and My confession gets him to do stuff my offerings my first fruits or whatever else.
I remember also thinking like whatever this guy's talking about. He doesn't know how to get god to work. I do. He was literally driving a white camry. He was just a weird baptist guy who seemed pretty boring and plain and I was driving a hummer.
Still I had a breitling watch which was like a ten thousand dollar limited edition watch that i'd been given as a gift.
Lived in my own apartment like some fancy apartment off campus. Didn't even live where the team lived and where most of the players like normal college guys were. I went to gateway church because that was the connection with the family and if you don't know that church robert morris and Todd white was a member there for a while.
Crazy church in south lake, uh in dallas big church, but you know, and i'm looking at this guy thinking. What does he know about getting god to do anything that he wants? He's just a coach of a little baptist school, you know his sbc school at the time.
He was a model though of genuine faith. He loved scripture and over time I began to see his life. I was home one time from a family holiday or what typically where players would go home to see their family.
And coach invited the guys over to the house who were home and weren't Going or were who were in dallas still and weren't going home. And I remember being in his house and watching the way that his wife was and he had he has five sons five boys and I remember looking at the way he was with them and the way he carried himself.
And he was calm. He was collected. He was biblical. He would rise early. He was in the word and slowly but surely that had a huge impact on my life.
That Planted a massive seed though. The sovereignty of god was always looming in my mind as some weird thing I never got drafted. Never got god to do anything for me after that with baseball in that regard and I come out of dbu had a great time graduate from dallas baptist and The next part of my testimony I would call the girl just a few months after being home for The summer and then into the fall I ended up meeting My now wife christine and I wasn't really serving the lord all out at that point I got invited to a country concert and so I played baseball.
I like country music. So I ended up at this concert at lake elsnore storm stadium. Jason aldean was in concert one of my buddies Invited me so I was the third wheel. It was him and his girlfriend and me and I remember seeing this gal as I just looked over and It was it was christine.
And for no reason except obviously now looking back to providence of god I looked over at my buddy. Jeff who married laura who were with they have four kids. They live in dallas. He's a dallas firefighter now serving the lord.
I remember looking over at him. And he's like what and I said, I gotta know that girl. And he was like what what's wrong with you? I said, I don't know. I gotta know that girl and for no reason at all.
And so I go on and on and i'm trying to figure out a way to meet this girl and I went. I got it.
True story. I still had the hummer. We had been tailgating throwing the football around hanging out and the car had died because we had the Doors open it wasn't on we'd just been listening to music and so the car had died.
And I said i'm gonna ask him for a jump. He's like and then what i'm like, I don't know i'll figure it out, but I got from concert seats to the parking lot. To make my next move, I don't know. But we'll see.
So I walk over and I ask her and this other gal she's with my now sister-in-law. Hey gals, we're just sitting over there. My car died and after the concert would you be willing to give us a jump and they were like?
Yeah, sure like real polite. So I go back to the seats like what they say i'm like, they'll give us a jump. He's like great like this. I don't. Well we need the jump anyway, but I like. All right, so we end up walking.
Concert ends we end up walking back towards the car. We're all striking up conversation just talking and my buddy ends up having a mutual friend with her. And i'm just like giving him the signal. I keep talking.
I have no idea what i'm gonna say to her, but I just I gotta know her and For whatever reasons that god allows these things don't go to jason aldean concerts and try to meet girls. That's not the lesson here at all at all.
You know the providence of god was working even through that moment. Isn't that amazing that god is working through a fool. Me. And puts me in the right place at the right time seats away from this gal Who has no correlation to my background whatsoever?
I run into my now wife. We end up talking. We're on our way back to the car and I said hey, are you guys coming to the concert again tomorrow? It was a sunday the next day.
They said yeah, are you. And I said yeah, but she has to sing at church. My my buddy's girlfriend was singing the next day on the worship team. And that was a church. They don't go to anymore that you could be on the worship team and then be out at jason aldean concerts on saturday night.
But which I know might be a little legalistic. It's okay. So Uh for whatever reason she's singing and they said oh you're church people. This is what my sister-in-law says. She goes. Oh church people.
Well, you're like her. She's a little church girl, too. And she sasses christine.
I said, oh, where are you going to church? And she's like oh, I just been going to saddleback on my own and listening to rick warren and just kind of learning and growing and i'm like, okay and That's cool.
Because rick warren is like whatever to me at that point like saddleback's just this big church. Some of you are like red flags red flags, you know and here we are like thank god for his grace, okay, and so i'm, like oh, that's awesome.
You need to go to saddleback and you're learning about god and so I said well, yeah, let's you know meet up tomorrow. It'd be great to to talk more and get to know you and all that. So the next day welcome to the concert and I asked her if I could take her to dinner and she says no I'm, really busy.
I got school and work pretty much every day. I said, all right. What are you doing tomorrow? She's like school and work. I'm like cool tuesday School and work wednesday. I remember doing that like I wasn't giving up and her sister says She'll be free wednesday.
She'll be free on wednesday. And I was like, all right and turns out she had to Switch shifts. She worked at tgi fridays and was a server there. So she switches her shift With some other person and we go in the state and we end up talking and talking and talking and we were polar opposite.
She drove she ended up driving a yaris a toyota yaris. I had my hummer. Very different. She is introverted. She is mellow. Hard-working blue collar my father-in-law. Worked for a steel company at the time.
He was in charge of metal decking. My mother-in-law is still to this day a teacher.
I'm trying to explain like yeah my family ministry and you know that They one of my you know, i'm trying to like explain how I have a hummer. He's not making a lot of sense at this point even in my mind.
Because the minute you meet like blue collar Actually wealthy people and you try to explain what we're in ministry and.
Like.
Wow. What ministry is that that you? And so we end up talking and and here's what She starts asking questions about like so What what's like the trinity and stuff like that? Because she's really new. She went to azusa pacific university was in nursing there and just wanted to know more about god.
And so I would tell her stuff about the trinity and it was true. I never said like my uncle that he's nine persons or anything weird like that. We I you'd maybe heard online. She asked me about like the father and the son and the holy spirit and I would explain each person in the trinity.
I knew my bible. I knew verses. I knew the gospel. I knew how you could be saved. I just had all of this baggage with it like second baptism and speaking in tongues and Healing and also weird teachings about the anointing and what it meant to be called by god.
There are a lot of different things and.
Slowly, but surely.
I.
Was challenged by family members as they begin to understand. There's this gal and she's not going anywhere. She's just still in the picture. And so I remember I wanted to introduce them to my family.
I kept her separate from my family for quite a while because I knew where this was going. And one day this is my mom god bless her. I just talked to her earlier today. I'll explain more of that in the q a but at that time my mom Said all right.
So this girl is she spirit-filled and I was like mom. Don't you start that? You know, yes, she's spirit-filled. We all get the holy spirit When we get saved because I had gone to a baptist school, so I got at least that in new testament survey.
Right. It was the basics. The basics even though I was a kinesiology major you still had to take old testament survey and new testament survey and There was a pastor. It was the pastor of of first baptist burleson, texas.
That was one of my professors and i'll never forget he had Been listing off names on the roll. And he goes costy hand like with a texas twang. I'm like here he goes you kin to benny. And I said, yes, sir, he goes oh boy and I was like, all right.
That was dbu and so, you know there he was nice to me, but.
I got a he made a lot of jokes when we got to like the tongue section of of the new testament and. And so I I had been talked to enough to know some things. And my mom said no, no, no, you know what I mean and I said no and I.
Please don't.
I remember my family. Kind of figuring this girl's not going anywhere. So we need to put the fix on her. It's time she needs to become one of us because she's going to marry costy. And so she had to go to different services.
There is youtube footage. If you find it i'll send you a free book. Good luck, but she is at a particular service.
It's a good friday service. There's her hint.
There it's at uncle benny crusade. And it's a good friday service and she is like in the crowd and the camera keeps putting her on. I don't know why for some reason maybe they knew that I was dating her or whatever.
She's lifting her hands and singing the songs and you know. My uncle prayed for her after they tried to get her tongues and tried to get her like in. And she was very sweet and very kind but very resistant internally christine's just not into that stuff.
And the longer she was around the family the more she Would resist it quietly. But all the while the family began to think there was really something wrong with her. And so there were prophecies at that time one family member came to me and said Don't care how nice she is.
Don't care how pretty she is. She's not your wife. I said. Oh, yeah, she's not okay. How do you know and well god told me she's not your wife. One particular family member said she'll ruin the anointing on your life.
She'll ruin your ministry. There were so many things attached to This woman that were going to lead to the demise of my calling as the next in line and all she had to do at that time in my mind was just Babble in tongues.
How hard can that be? You know, can you just give me something? So last ditch effort. We're at this conference i'm preaching a youth conference in Kelowna british columbia the interior of bc. And we're up there preaching at church the couple that were the co-pastors of this church were my old our old children's ministry pastors at the church, my dad pastored and They invited me to do youth conference.
I was beginning to preach a lot more in that time. And so we go and the conference is going great. I'm, just preaching good stuff. Normal stuff like you'd probably let me have told it to the youth group here not crazy heresy.
The whole thing ends. They had me preach sunday. I preach a normal message and at the end the the wife Says to me during the closing song I want you to end this.
By.
Getting them all baptized in the holy spirit. I said.
Okay, um, I.
Like that what do you mean that like? Altar call for salvation and she goes. No, you know what? I mean. Kosti. They give them tongues. I'm like, uh-oh.
Because I was starting to have the doubts because christine wasn't getting it and I know her and i'm like. Yeah, something's up. Maybe I don't I don't know what but something's up.
So I get up there and they line up all of the youth all of them and I begin to pray for them. And I wouldn't put my hands on their head because there were things happening just inside of my heart. I was getting hesitant.
I was getting real insecure with the way that we had done ministry. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I was going I don't want to do that. So I would put my hands on their shoulders and I was praying for them like this i'd say oh lord.
Fill them with your spirit bless them in their life. Help them to follow you in jesus name. Amen, and I was praying for like I was just praying for normal people normal ways and she had had enough. And the woman pastor, uh grabs the microphone.
So I do all I pray and i'm like, love you guys. God bless you and I walk up she grabs the microphone and goes. I want every hand raised. And I want every eye closed you young people. You're about to get the baptism fire.
The holy spirit gonna come upon you. Thank you brother hand and i'm just like well, all right. Here she goes and she starts doing the job. I I didn't do obviously. And christine's standing there. I'll never forget it.
She puts her hands in the air and she's standing there just silent and Her little like lips begin to move and I don't know what she was saying, but it was like the like typically. Stuff whatever. And I remember looking over and I started to cry started to tear up and I thought okay.
She's getting it like crazy woman pastor who? You know took the mic. Maybe she's right. Now she's getting it. All right, the joke's on me. Obviously i'm being dry spiritually i'm not doing what I should do.
And I look over and so the whole thing ends. We leave. They give us hugs. Everything's cordial. We get in the car and I said.
So what's up?
And she just starts crying. Christine's crying and We're driving back to bc. It's just a few hours and or back to vancouver and she says I just I. That wasn't it. I'm like you got like you got. I saw you you're moving your your lips.
You're doing a little bubble stuff. Like you feel like it was coming right? Like we're there. She's just bawling. She's like no like that. I was just saying like nothing literally nothing. Alice like man, she's like this is not gonna work.
Like we're pretty much going through the you're you know. We're engaged you're I can't marry you like you can't get tongues. We've tried everything even uncle benny's uncle benny's pray benny hinn has prayed for you like hands on your head.
Which now i'm more thankful that she didn't catch anything, but you get it in that regard. My dad has prayed for her everybody's prophesied for her and against her and now we're at this little service where apparently you're gonna get tongues and You know, so pretty dejected.
We end up deciding we should check the bible and I know that sounds real just funny right. It's like yeah think but we Had not thought. We should check the teaching that we're hearing against the bible and so I I don't know how we got there.
I don't know if it was google or what what but we ended up in first corinthians 12 30.
Where paul is.
Clearly, I don't care if you're a Prosperity gospel person or you're you're just brand new. It's obvious through just basic grammar that he's being rhetorical.
He says not all.
Have gifts of healing. Not all. Speak in tongues. Do they do they do they. It's all rhetorical. The answer is no. He's talking about how there's different gifts that people operate in the body and not all will do these things.
And I remember looking and just thinking wow. Like we're off the hook you're off the like. I think we could we can get married like we can do this and she's crying. And i'm crying i'm like, okay, like we're all right.
There were multiple beliefs at that time. This is the summer right before our wedding. We got married october 12th. Uh 2012. And this conference happened that summer. And for a few months those cracks in the dam start to get bigger and bigger and bigger.
And bigger and pretty soon I start thinking I gotta get out of here a buddy of mine Reaches out i'm in the basement in the canada house and he's like, hey, how's it going man? You big world changer. He's from california.
He's part of a church plant. He wasn't in the same vein as us theologically. He was a friend that was in sort of the seeker movement and We had ties there christine had gone to that their little church plant was just starting.
I had been to a couple of services and then we were going to move to canada anyway. And I was over there already and then she moved over there and was living in a wing of our house because in middle eastern families.
One of the future in-laws will move in if in my case, it's the wife. She moves in to her own wing. My mother teaches her how to cook. She learns how to clean. She learns my favorite meals. I know it sounds a little chauvinistic, but it's just how it works in that culture not a bad idea in today's world, but Things are getting more traditional and feminism is on the rise so You know, it might be helpful for some ladies to learn how to be titus too.
But probably just as helpful for some young men to figure it out too and learn how to be men and so christine's living in the home in that side of the house and All of us like one big happy greek family about to get married.
Conflict begins to erupt. So my friend calls me. And I said it's going terrible. He's like what's up? Like She can't get tongues. But i'm pretty sure she's not Obligated to speak in it. The family's not sold on her but the wedding's in like two months.
She feels spiritually abused. She's stuck. I just found her Like a week ago in the basement hyperventilating. She had asthma and had a crazy breathing attack and was like slipping unconscious and having a hard time and All this stuff was happening and there was some nebulizer I had to get and like put this thing.
This little thing that helped her breathe. And she's going through a lot of these things under the weight of spiritual abuse.
He said man.
I think it's time for you to stop trying to be your dad's hero and please your family and start Being your wife's hero. She's your first ministry and you're about to get married and I remember hearing those words and they hit me like a like a Haymaker.
That she would that she was my first ministry. I was like what in the world like in my Thought pattern and the way I was trained is ministry. You're married to the ministry ministry is number one and the family everything bows to that because that's the anointing of god on your life and you act like a monarchial king in the lineage of israel where you do what you want and everybody bows and I remember thinking like what in the world are you doing?
So I asked him and he said You got to take her on a date and you got to tell her you're done. He's like what? You're crazy. He goes. Yeah, you take her on a date. You tell her you're done. You're not going to put her through this anymore.
You're going to man up love her like christ and Ask her where she wants to move like what? No, this is a bad idea. This is. We're going to be on our own. We're going to like he said no ask her. And what opportunities you have right now?
I said well I got a job offer in dallas to get involved with some sports training and stuff like that I could do that. My brother-in-law started a church in florida. I could go work for them. He offered us to kind of get out of here a little bit connected to family, but it's away from here.
And that's it and he said well, i'll give you a third option. Both of those options you'll have money. You'll be fine. But a third option is you come here you join the church plant you be our youth guy.
We can only pay a few hundred bucks a month. So you're gonna have to go get a job and figure that out. But at least you'll be in a stable place. And you'll be away from all of that and you can just see what the lord has from there.
So I took her on a date. To the beacher street cafe in crescent beach white rock canada. And I told her all this and she's just bawling me. People in the restaurant probably thought I was breaking up with her like she was just bawling.
And I said, where do you want to go? And she said I don't want to be anywhere near your family. No offense. He said no problem. She said i'm not going to florida. So don't be there. And dallas would be great.
Be a good life it'd be.
Probably have a home and get to kind of be a family sooner. But you won't be in ministry and I really think you're called to be in ministry. I think that calling is on your life and whatever that means.
I think you should be in a church setting of some sort. And california will be hard. We're going to be broke. We're going to have nothing. We're away from everything and everyone. We have no lifelines, but I think that'll be a healthy place for us.
That's where I want to go. I said, okay. So we told my parents and there was a massive blow up. And she was the black sheep and they said you did this to him. You've pulled him from the family. We were cut off completely.
They said that's it. You're done.
That was it. And so we packed up our cars. She stole the yaris and we drove to California and joined this church plant. I called an old friend from the baseball world and got a job basically making 10 bucks an hour throwing batting practice to 12 year olds for a little while.
And then started getting involved in training athletically and doing different things for athletes. And so I had a stable job. I was the youth pastor technically at this church plant. And that's where we kind of land the plane now with the pastor.
So there's a coach the girl the pastor. And I would say right there 20, this is 2012 within six months of that moment moving there I get there. And my boss is a woman pastor. The church is a seeker driven church plant.
And rick warren's like our hero. He had coached a little bit of the church plant.
Our pastor at the time his name was tony wood anthony some people know him as now. Was going through his own little process as I was kind of just enjoying not being in in insanity. And I remember him coming in one day to the office and saying hey We're gonna do this thing.
It's like what it's like it's called expository preaching. It's like what? He said yeah, i've been i've been kind of going back to my roots. It's like what roots he's like well, dad, you know graduated from dts and You know, my grandfather was a pastor up in washington state and you know, he's good pre-mill disbey guy and Literal historical grammatical hermeneutics.
I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like and I I've been in this kind of mega church game for a while and it's just i'm sick of the rat race to be honest I'm sick of trying to convince people to come to church every week because the new thing i'm sick of the hype I just I want to do this can't be it.
I just want to do church Biblically like, you know, i'm like, okay. I don't sure i'm enjoying this. It's not I whatever I was in I can't put my finger on all of it. But whatever that thing that makes people go.
Oh, you're a hen. That thing isn't here.
At the same time we had like christine kane had come to preach for us. And we had done all these things that just dabbled in that world. And tony was very popular and in the mega church world and was Preaching a little bit with furtick and louis giglio and some different guys on the circuit.
And so for him to be exhausted by this was really weird. And so he goes we're gonna go through the gospel of john. He's like, okay. Like what's the hook? Like what's the he's like? No, it's just gonna be called john like Got it.
He said the subtitle will be glory came down. I'm like, okay, yeah, that sounds that seems that's kind of cool. It's got a little glory came down like glory clouds glory like all right. He's like, yeah, we just we're gonna preach through it like verse by verse.
I was like, okay.
I remember we got to john 5 and nothing had really changed nothing externally. We get to john 5.
Sorry right around this time actually just before I get to preach out of john 5 there do there was something. He had gone up there one sunday like a crazy man, and he had said You're gonna see something different today.
The church was growing a few hundred people at a church plant and it was growing. He said it's just gonna be hayley up here with a guitar and she's gonna sing some hymns. And if you don't like it go find another church.
So we still had like women in leadership. My boss was a woman pastor like incremental changes here people but things were happening and he said We're not paying musicians anymore. And if you're not saved you're not playing in the band because we were hiring like boy band.
Musicians and people we're playing the lights out of the place. So we were growing fast. And so there was a bit of an exodus and he said she's gonna sing some hymns and then i'm gonna preach and that's the service today and there were some people that.
What we're going to saddleback we're like go to saddleback, you know that kind of thing and so uh, and at the time we're literally like Three four miles from saddleback. So that is a reality and so that had happened.
And we felt like we were still being edgy like we were the rebels of the seeker movement kind of like we're gonna just be more biblical and preach through books of the bible and In you know more than three weeks like I saw one guy not long ago.
He's like we're going through the book of galatians. It's like awesome. He's like so for the next three weeks. We're just going to cover it. It's like cool got it three sermons on galatians like and you know some of us come from like we're we're on our 98th sermon in the book of jude and you're like there's.
That's called a word study. You know. Just look at the word the this morning just the. The definite article you're like, okay. All right. We're in deep, you know. And so we just thought we were edgy because we were going through a book of the bible like that's it.
And i'm up preaching. I get it's my turn and tony throws me a commentary. And he says hey. My dad's been dropping off books again. I'm like sweet and his dad. This is backstory. His dad had thousands of books in his library, but he refused to give a single one of them to tony.
Because he was doing crazy. You know stephen furtick type of ministry and he said you can't give him none of my books. You probably don't even read books unless they're by some crazy guy on how to grow your church in some pagan way.
Well, his dad starts dropping off books. So whatever was happening, which of course we know now behind the scenes. Tony was going through this whole Conversion thing where he was just going to be a different pastor.
It felt like he was already saved but was being sanctified and growing. He starts giving me books and so he gives me a commentary and goes Hey for your john 5 sermon the healing at the pool of bethesda.
This will help keep the train on the tracks. And so I look down and real story like he was just quick in the office. He would like this will help you keep the train track commentary good stuff. Look it up follow it do your study first, but you know, that'll be helpful and I look and it's a burgundy.
Like commentary by john macarthur. I'm like, all right, like whatever and I don't even think much about john macarthur at the time. It doesn't click that like he's the guy like if you had batman and the joker like my uncle and macarthur that's like, you know.
That's all going on.
I just look i'm like whatever. And I remembered i'm going through the study and at the time I had been taught you've heard of oika Observation interpretation correlation application i've been taught some basics at this point.
So i'm doing my preliminaries and i'm going through the text and things are sticking out. In john 5 1 through 17 I've got the healing at the pool of bethesda and First of all, jesus heals one out of a multitude.
I'm like, that's weird. Just one. Okay. Thought you it's like always your will to heal everyone. So just one. And then if you keep going down in the narrative john records that jesus Heals the man and immediately he gets up and i'm thinking That sticks out and in the nasb my bible at that time it was italicized so obviously it's put in there for emphasis and.
Immediately.
Meaning the speed and the Quickness of the whole thing, but then i'm like, well the man complained. So when jesus said do you want to get healed? He said well every time I try he tells a story and well, that's an Unbelieving spirit.
That's a complaining negative confession.
That's weird.
And then.
You keep going in the narrative.
And the pharisees come and ask the man who told you you could pick up your pallet and walk. It's the sabbath and the man says Well the man who healed me told me I could. Then john records something very interesting.
He says for the man did not know who jesus was and jesus had slipped away and The word that he uses there for no this greek word. I do which means basically perceived the man didn't even Have any idea Who jesus was he didn't perceive that?
He was the son of god. That he was the savior and so Now i'm looking thinking. Okay, we got immediate healing of one guy out of a multitude Who is a whiner and a complainer and then he doesn't even know who jesus is so i'm going.
How did he have enough faith to get healed? How did he move like? Okay, so commentary time we're gonna figure this out. And so I open up the commentary and macarthur just teased off in that section.
He basically says.
Unlike many alleged Modern healings jesus's healings were complete and instantaneous with or without faith. And he goes on to say. One of the cruelest lies of contemporary faith healers is that the people they fail to heal are guilty of sinful unbelief a lack of faith or negative confession.
And macarthur says this man is a prime example of jesus healing in a sovereign way and that word sovereign Just reverberates in my mind never forget it. And I think back to coach hefner. And sovereignty and god doing what he wants when he wants how he wants to who he wants going.
What in the world.
And macarthur unpacks there the cruelest lie of faith healers and I remember thinking like that's exactly what I Always believed that's what we taught. That's what I took hook line and sinker Like we're we're this.
Like whoever this guy this is true. This is absolutely right and so I end up preaching it that sunday. And the date Of that particular week. It was april 30th 2012. So now over 10 years ago. And or sorry april 2013.
And so 10 years ago and I remember Preaching it that sunday just like Like a fire hose more like a shotgun spray. I was everywhere. I was yelling about everything. I'm glad they didn't record it It it didn't it didn't make the halls of history of the church and the youtube channel there.
But I went off. And the reason I did is because at that moment in study I begin to weep just cry uncontrollably. It was as though for years the lord had been priming the pump. There were cracks in the dam, but the whole thing just burst and I was weeping.
It was that moment that particular afternoon. I repented of my sin. I told the lord i'm sorry for believing that for teaching it. I told him I want to preach the true gospel. I want to be a pastor. I want to serve him faithfully.
I'll do whatever he wants me to do. I'll never do that again. I don't want to be part of it all of that and you can obviously know now because hindsight's 2020 that Jesus is sheep. Know his voice. You're always a sheep.
Remember justin telling me this years later because you You you weren't a goat that turned into a sheep. You were a sheep that was drawn and so For years prior, you know, was there were the things happening to you?
I was like totally like doubts questions at one point. I preached a string of sermons at my dad's church. When I was starting to preach a lot of this church on the on job I'll never forget like the weirdest I still have them.
They're on my computer. They're not very good but they're i'm preaching joe's story to at my dad's church of how he Suffered and if you're a believer you're going to suffer there were weird things. I was starting to say.
And I would study they weren't very good studies. But I would stay up late and I was googling everything and I was looking at you know Blue letter bible and random things i'm like i'm pretty sure there's people who say stuff about these things that are helpful.
I didn't know all like I should get commentaries and all that but There were things happening already and I wanted to know more and I wanted to serve the lord, but didn't know how or where. And I remember going into tony's office.
He kicked the door in basically and said like all of it was lies it was lies and I'm gonna tell everyone about this and they need to be taken down and they're liars. They're cheating people. This whole thing makes sense.
Like they're literally abusing people. This can't go on and i'm like i'm gonna this and i'm gonna that and he's like sit down i'm like, all right.
I sit down. And he said you know what? What do you want to be. And I said I want to be a pastor. And he said what does a pastor do? I'm like Preach the word shepherd the flock like serve the church. He's like, yeah.
So you need to do that. That's where it all starts if you want to be a pastor.
If god since he's sovereign now, right i'm like, yep. If he decides that you're going to be helpful on these issues or you will speak about these issues. Then he'll decide when and how but you just focus on being faithful.
Okay. He's like, all right. So basically it was like you're gonna sit down. You're gonna shut your mouth and you go back to your office and do your job. Within weeks. I was stripped of my title. It was not the students pastor.
I was a p .i .t pastor in training as like a pledge at a fraternity, you know. It's like there's a few of us that got stripped of everything and I was thankful I still got a paycheck to do some ministry, but it was small Tasks that the elders would ask me to do and I ended up getting into biblical counseling like not being one but getting biblical counsel.
There was intentional discipleship. Tony started to give me books and one of them was expository preaching by john macarthur and I was like This is like a thing like they do this. There's like chapters on it.
He's like, yes, this is what i've been looking through. This is what happened another Staff meeting. Lindsey is her name. She walked in tears in her eyes and said to all of us with pastor. Tony, of course with her.
Gentlemen, i'm not a pastor. I was never a pastor. There is no such thing as a woman pastor and i'm here now to be the Pastoral assistant i'll be serving and administrating here in the office and helping.
And that is my role and to this day. They're at this. They're at the church and her husband's a deacon dear friends of ours. And the church went through a few name changes and at one point tony came in my office.
He's like we're gonna be a bible church. He's like, okay. And he's like we need a name like we're gonna change the name. We're gonna go you know, what bible churches are i'm like no he's like there are these churches.
They're like bible churches and like all right. He's like there's this organization called the ifca and like macarthur was in it and alex montoya. There's all these guys. I met them all they're gonna come do seminars and start training our men like, okay.
They're from the masters like okay. And he said so what do you want to be? What do you think and our church at the time went from it was called moment church. Which was like the seeker name they picked in the weird little like marketing brainstorm.
To church at the mission, which we were at a rescue mission and we were super ecumenical at that time. So he's like we're gonna go to rescue missions. We were just at the rescue mission because the guy gave it to us for free.
And like a typical seeker church, we're like we're gonna turn this into a marketing campaign. So we're like where would jesus do church at a rescue mission? We're the real church. And so we became church at the mission.
And then that he's like hey i've been reading this book on ecclesiology the doctrine of the church. I'm like, yep. He's like turns out. The church isn't just for the poor people at the rescue mission.
It's for the rich the poor everyone in between so we can't be church at the mission anymore. We can't be ecumenical. I'm, like what's ecumenical? He's like don't worry about it. We can't do this. We have to be a church for everyone.
All right, and He's like what should we call it i'm like I I don't know just how about mission just keep mission in there because the mission of god but like mission bible. Just bible church sounds good.
You keep saying that he's like done. So he runs back buys the domain and missionbible .org. If you look it up, that's the church. They're doing great and uh, just preached there last week or two weeks ago.
And so all that happens. Behind the scenes I had sent a thank you email. To gty their info because I had started to watch their stuff and My wife christine I was not like bought into a few things. My wife christine was taking the whole thing hook line and sinker so we're at lifeway and she wants a pink john macarthur study bible and i'm like no.
He's like why she had a little coupon.
I was like no no this guy so he was helpful like the commentary all this stuff is good. Okay, a lot of good things. Let's not go too far. He doesn't believe in the holy spirit and doesn't believe that people can get healed like there's a whole section in that bible.
No way. She's like I really want this bible. My wife's like short like little five foot two. She's small but mighty I call her and she's like i'm getting this bible like little, you know. Foot stomp like in lifeway.
You can't have a fight in lifeway. We're christians and so.
It was before all of the stuff now. Everybody apparently had a fight in lifeway, but had a fight with lifeway. So that's all happening and i'm like fine, but when we get home i'm gonna highlight the sections in 1 corinthians 12 And 13 and 14 where he's just he's this cessationist thing where they don't believe in the holy spirit.
She's like you do whatever you want. I'm like i'm gonna do that. So our kids aren't Jaded by this man in those areas, but the rest of it's fine.
I no joke like true story within days. I'm reading the pink macarthur study bible daily true story.
So I.
At that point it was all I could do to just send. I poured my entire heart out. I wrote one of those essays that you just send in and you don't care if anyone reads it. You're just like I gotta get this off my chest.
And so I sent that into info at gty and this guy named travis allen ends up reaching out to me. He was the managing director at the time. And he invited me to lunch. And him and another guy named jay flowers invited me to a chinese restaurant.
And they began to just kick the tires hard. And I had permission to speak freely. So I did and they would correct me and then quantify what happened. So I would say things and they travis would go well.
So the bible says this this this this this so I know you probably felt that way but here's actually what was happening inside your heart and your mind according to what the bible says. And I Was like man, you guys all do that.
This is great. Like everything's biblical. What. So I could just say anything i'm good. He's like, yeah, you just say things how they are and then. You know, we'll help you out. I was like, okay like it was the first time i'd ever had men talk like that.
I said I want to know my bible like that and I remember travis saying So have you been biblically baptized since your true conversion and I was like, oh, no, I haven't but wow. Should I he's like well?
Yeah, your first baptism was definitely a false one.
You weren't really a christian.
It's like that's true. But then everyone at the church will know he's like, yep. It's kind of the point. Got it. So I got baptized and They sent me a ton of books. And one of the books was master's plan for the church.
They sent two copies one for tony one for me. And a ton of other books and then these boxes showed up one day and travis said hey care package coming. And it was the rest of the commentaries because I obviously had one from the gospel of john.
There's two and then I had the rest of them and strange fire was in there. I was like, what's this. And he had said hey before getting into too many of those other books. You should watch strange fire there's dvds and a book.
I was like, okay and I turned it on and spent days just having a whole crisis of the will and Stayed in our room. Christine at that time was so kind. She's in the living room night after night. I was in our master bedroom and I don't know why.
Oh, yeah, she wanted to like enjoy dinner and like relax and I was in there like Are you kidding me? And she's like I just. You do you like go through whatever you're going through and then tell me on the other side where we're going because I Have no I do not have that baggage.
But you're my husband. So and then that was where this guy, you know who's sitting down when he was preaching I didn't know why at the time. But he has the session called the devilish uh puppet something of the of the word of faith movement or something and i'm like Who is this guy.
There's powerpoint slides and everything else and so that's how I got exposed to justin peters and all of that. You know, there's a million details since I ended up going to seminary and all of those things but the biggest Breakthrough was simple.
It was god's word. And it was god's word through faithful people who just told me the truth. And then loved me enough to walk with me be kind to me be gracious in the midst of it, but absolutely unwavering.
In the truth.
And so if there's anything you take away it's that you and I ought to leave it all in the field with people. Walk with them keep the door open for them, but keep speaking the truth to them in the midst of that.
There is a small group that you should keep far away from you. There's a small group that you you want nothing to do with and jude speaks to that. We'll talk about that in one of the sessions, but for the most part you and I are on planet earth as plan a.
The lord if he had no more plans to save people he'd just pull us out of here right now. But he's left the church here to be a beacon and to be a witness. And so i'm thankful for people.
Who.
Did that for me and I know it took a little too long on this session, but um, thanks for for listening. Thanks for your faithfulness and thanks for indirectly somehow. Maybe your support of ministries like grace to you and others and supporting justin as a missionary.
Uh leads to Souls like mine being saved and sanctified and the lord using that then we get to be in ministry. And that cycle continues and one day you go to heaven you die and you toss your crowns back at his feet and say it was All for you.
Anyway, it was a privilege to be used by the king. Let me pray for us and then we'll we'll shift to whatever. 10 minute break. Father, thank you for saving all of us. What do we have that we haven't received?
As paul also says who is adequate for these things the answer is obvious no one. And so thank you that you'd let us Be your children that you'd allow us to be useful during our time here on earth. Continue to edify and strengthen and encourage and affirm.
My brothers and my sisters here. As we celebrate your word your goodness to us your kindness and the glory of the gospel by using wisdom as well. And discernment so we can reach others. In jesus name.
Amen. All right, 10 minute break.
Thank you. All right, if you come in and find your seat again, we will get started with the second session.
All right, so this q a is a little bit more of a get to know the get to know the guest speaker, but Kosti did that in the first session there. He gave you a lot of details. So some of this is going to be some follow-up questions to what he just covered in that session.
And some of it, uh some stuff that you didn't even touch on.
Would you first question would you say that you were saved? There at your study desk reading john 5. Would you say that was your conversion experience there? Or were you saved at some other point or can you even pinpoint the time of your genuine salvation?
Good question.
So for me, I I used that particular moment as my conversion and the reason for that is because I actually repented of My sin and what I believed.
As well made a wholehearted commitment to Serve the lord preach the true gospel learn grow study all that. So I In a real way I was. My eyes were fully opened and I was very determined. Uh interesting for you to bring that up.
It's a great question because justin i've often talked with justin peters Tony as well about it and tony calls it my grace awakening moment. He's like I. The way you because I had preached before at the church and was doing student ministry stuff.
And even wanting and wanting to get away from the family and all of that. He he has said before I think you were saved sometime before we won't know until glory. But at some point your heart was regenerate you your mind had changed you wanted nothing.
You just hadn't been taught yet. So the moment you started getting tools in front of you you were like this is what I want. I'm going all out.
Um, if if that's the case then you're talking about late summer the year you got married when you're making that decision having that crisis.
Yeah, probably probably right in there is what he would say and then justin similar kind of said brother. He said at one time like with his his pit word pictures. He's like brother, you know like a sheep.
You just you're sitting there grazing and focused on yourself and then you kind of pick your head up. My you know and then you're just back grazing again but you know and then that moment comes where you fully aware and you just you pick your head you hear the master's voice through his word and That's it.
You're following him forever and like all that and so. He's like obviously something was happening to you there to even want that and i'm like, all right. So but for me personally the easiest way to describe it is through the series of events.
Yeah, and then that moment late april 2013. Because at that point I never looked back again with confusion or or even doubts. I had doubts if I wanted to be in ministry mainly because I felt like I wasn't qualified or I felt like I could never be like.
Other guys that were faithful and I was thinking that they. You know, i'm. It's too messy. My my storyline is too.
Too messed up yet. Did you have a fake conversion experience. When you were younger six or seven you asked jesus into your heart?
Yeah, probably probably my baptism at 12. Just getting baptized and making my big profession of faith, but I would have said I was always saved I grew up. I was born saved is what I would say when someone's like how long you been saved?
Or when did you get saved when I got born saved? Yeah, so did you have uh,. As a hymn, did you have exposure early exposure to non-prosperity christianity. Like teachings, did you ever hear john macarthur preach?
Alistair begg preach r .c. Sproul preach ever before your conversion? No the first thing I ever.
The first church I ever heard Anything preached that I could say that guy at that time would have been Matt chandler sermon at the village church.
In.
2008 I guess seven. Yeah, because. Oh 7080809 my my junior senior at dbu. I had a friend who invited me to the village church. And this guy gets up there and just talks about the bible for 45 minutes.
I'm like, whatever. Okay, like that was church. Okay, cool. And it was the village so looking back i'm like hey. And it was sort of an it was a good era from chandler. Where he was just bringing it and uh, they're at a grocery store or something.
Converted grocery store. And then I went back to gateway. It was like i'm going back because I like, you know, I want to hear carrie jobe every sunday and robert morris preach.
Yeah, that was kind of a jam. For those of you who don't know matt chandler is something of a continuationist. Which means he believes in the continuation of the certain spiritual gifts like prophecy.
Uh, he wrote the foreword for Sam storm's book practicing the power where he argues that you should have modern-day prophets in the church. But theologically in terms of salvation and soteriology Matt chandler's where we would be at in terms of believing the reformed doctrines of the faith believing sovereign election, etc.
It's just it's kind of that odd combination of continuationist as well as more soteriologically reformed.
Yeah, and on a sunday he was just he would get up. He was just getting up there and preaching the bible. It's kind of like when piper remember the old like john piper versus john macarthur continuationist versus cessationist thing.
One of the practical things was always I was always curious about this and thought man, you know I know piper's a continuationist, but. They all just sing hymns have brass bands preach the bible. And then go disciple people like where's the tongues in the prize.
If you got it, why aren't you doing it? It just looks like a baptist church. And um, so channel it was similar back then. They just preached the bible and went on with it. And I that was the first exposure.
The other one was a woman in my I. I didn't there's so many details. Some of these are in the book a lot a lot of them are. All of them are but. Um for sake of time, I couldn't keep going the first session, but a woman came up to me at my dad's church Right before we moved and slipped me a book and said here this you should read this.
And it was a book.
Called church awakening by chuck swindoll. And in that book like swindoll is pretty. He's pretty orthodox pretty clear, of course, and he would be a cessationist very conservative in his approaches to things.
And in that book, he's very gracious. He's very soft and gentle with things. But he says things about like certain teachers who do this and that. And I remember reading that thing like oh Like this book is probably banned.
I can't no one can know. I have it and I still have it in my bookshelf to this day. But that was another one that I thought people just.
Slipping me things that Put cracks in the dam. How close are you to your uncle? Benny now, uh back then let's start very very close.
Yeah, I was like the favored nephew and super tight and now. Uh, no, he won't talk to me. Not at all. No.
Your mom and dad.
Uh mom and dad. Yeah mom and dad. Uh. Want to move to arizona. And be close to our church and be close to me and be around. My dad and mom have moved away from pretty much all Of the like. They don't travel to uncle benny.
They don't go near my mom. It's really clear. There's some real.
Even the conversations about them wanting to be out in arizona more and thinking about being more to where we are. Has to do with all sorts of things similar in the same vein.
Along theology and wanting to get away from the influence life.
Uh, yeah, and it was started years ago when we used to talk about tongues and prophecy and different things. She she was watching what we were going through and we had a little couple years where we were really estranged because true story I and this is part of my personality.
It sometimes works against me and so there's things even in the book about reaching others that I Tell people to do this a certain way because of my failures not because i'm super wise. But I brought my parents to california in our little dingy apartment sitting on our second-hand furniture.
Pulled out my at that point no longer pink my own macarthur study bible true story.
I opened up to first timothy Chapter three and I read to my father verses one to seven and said you are not qualified to be in ministry. You are a wolf and uncle benny's a wolf and you need to step down repent.
And before you think there's no hope.
Have the solution. He's like. Oh, really? I said. Yes. I have very dear friends. And they would love to help you if you would just repent. And and learn and grow humble yourselves. They will help you john macarthur justin peters like these guys you just need to know the guys I know i'm telling you they teach the bible.
They'll help you. They don't want to they don't want to harm you. They want to help but you need to step down. You're wolves. You need to repent. And of course that was met with like not. Oh, you don't say okay.
My mom was in that conversation. So that got me. It wasn't like oh see you later from canada go to california now. You know, you ruined everything christine, but all right, let's see you at thanksgiving.
I went all the way with it. Like I believed what the bible said. I read everything and took it. Dead serious still do black and white. There it is. Okay, so I should do this so I would call. I went after every family member.
I Called them when they started a couple. My sisters moved up to bethel my brother-in-law. They were serving up in reading and then they went to sacramento with jesus culture and.
Called them and I literally took the bible seriously went after all of it and That got me cut off pretty good to where no one would talk to me. And then over the years. You know for parents they don't stay away from gang kids.
So I was like, all right. Well. But I wouldn't let them see the grandkids for a period of time as well. And one of my conditions with my dad was maybe it seems insensitive or harsh but remember there's a difference between family caught up in following like kenneth copeland versus when you're Your parent or your loved one is an actual false teacher.
Jude says that you should Have mercy on them with fear hating even the garment stained by the flesh you want to keep some healthy distance. You don't like hey, come on over who knows what they're going to say or like will you babysit my kids for a date night?
And they're like teaching them about tongues. No way.
With that.
I definitely Put distance as well and said you cannot you're not coming to my front door. As long as you're teaching heresy and traveling with him. So that was my dad with uncle benny. So there was that level and then you know, that's again we're talking anywhere from eight to ten years ago.
And then slowly but surely throughout the different eras of time. When the book came out, I called my parents said i'm defining deception. Yes, and then that one that one got us cut off fully, uh to where chris valentine.
Who is a false teacher false prophet literally from bethel was my sister's my youngest sister's mentor. And they weren't allowed to talk to me or else they would have curses cancer like all the you know.
In calamity the big three c's if you go near someone it's like scientology like with a suppressive person. So that that was defining deception that did not help. That one my uncle ended up calling my dad.
And saying like what tell your son to knock it off like enough is enough. And then the christianity today article there was other things that kind of started popping up. By the time we got to god greed in the prosperity gospel I had called my parents.
I told them I was coming out with a book on it. I told them I would be respectful, but I would not hold back and it was around that time that We actually started having more conversations. So my dad got away from traveling.
He quit stopped traveling. Has your dad read either of those books? He's read the uh, god greed. My parents read god greed and that was painful.
Yeah, you tell some honest honest stories in that. How many of you read the book by the way. Okay, two or three. You tell some honest stories about your family your upbringing and the environment what that was like and reading that.
Which I just finished this last week. I thought Did your family read that. Did your uncle benny read that did they approve what you were writing in there? Because though you were straightforward and honest you were very gracious.
Yeah.
There so I don't know if my uncle read it or not. I have no idea. Do you think he read defining deception?
So that okay that one. Yes more family members dabbled in that one because it was the first one and that was tony had come to me and said hey I'm tired of the baffled stuff because one of Who's a guy who has come back from a conference?
He went to our church. He was like, hey guys. He said he could be the apostle of our church and tony's like yeah, not here. You're not and keep in mind like they were talking this is like 2015 2016, so clearly we're.
We're past the you know the era that we were moment to church uh, we were like masters planning for the church all that so. He's like we're like, where'd you learn that? He's like I just got back from reading went to a bethel conference.
We're like, oh no, and he's like, you know all this stuff. I'm like, oh, yeah, my sisters are up there. He's like, oh, here we go. So we were dealing with all of it in house. Then he said i'm gonna write a book you want to write it with me?
You don't have to if you do this though. You're getting in way more trouble than I ever will because this would be a more public stand. And i'm like, let's go like let's ride. So we did.
That one got read passed around the family and they were like, how dare he and I went after all their heroes. Yeah with the hall of generals chapter.
I went after the movement in that one more than a testimony and that was my plan. I was like, I don't want a testimony book talking about myself. I'd rather go after the theology. Then the book after because too many people were like what in the world you're a hymn.
How does that work? I was like, all right I'm gonna put it in a book and then please don't make me talk about it anymore except tonight. Obviously I had to yeah.
That was good. So, uh the god greed and the prosperity gospel book then.
Have you had conversations with your parents about that? Yes, so my parents are Further away from where they were ever completely my dad still Has some friends or will end up in a photo with someone or like somewhere and i'm kind of like.
These people are weirdos like why are you why are you even with them? Um.
My mom.
A little more Blunt.
Each time i'm with them. We have strong conversations good conversations healthy. I'm honorable and respectful, but They've been to our church they've sat. In our church our people are kind to them and i've pre.
I didn't even plan this they were there for My ephesians 2 we're going through the book of ephesians, you know 90 sermons later and I met. I did not plan they were in town. I said hey you guys gonna come to church always invite them.
And they're like, yeah, we will come tomorrow. I said oh great and they stay in a hotel somewhere locally and I said great. And I didn't even realize it till I was halfway through the sermon that I was in ephesians 2 20.
So I had this whole section on apostles and prophets and the foundation and christ the cornerstone. I just let it fly and after I was like, hey guys, sorry. I didn't mean to knock like you're. I was nothing against you.
That's the verse we're in and they were like no, it's great. My dad's like i'm so proud of you. It's good I love it. He's like I listen to your stuff. I follow and I keep up right look. We say we believe more of what you say than you ever would have thought.
I said, all right. Does your uncle benny and your dad still talk a little bit? There was one conversation. I don't know.
I mean you guys can record this. It's fine. But uh, we are it's live streaming. Yeah. Hello. Say hi to uncle benny. Hi.
One conversation that I had was after the last repentance.
Am very eager To be as loud or louder if he were to truly repent For his true repentance than i've ever been over the theop that then his false stuff and that last one Was where he's like the holy spirit's sick and tired of it.
Like he's really had enough and I know we can be cheeky and be like, oh really? Like now the sovereign spirit of god has had enough. Wow. I'm glad he's had enough now. Apparently he hadn't had enough for the 40 years he'd been doing this but all jokes aside I sent texts called like Wanted to talk to him.
I was like and I I Called he didn't pick up. So I sent him this big text message and I said if you're for real I will be at your front door and I will be louder for your true repentance than i've ever been against your false teaching.
I love you like just bleeding heart. Nothing. It's like I asked my mom a day or two later. It's like hey, like are we like are we in like tell me when I get on a plane like let's go and My dad said in arabic shuai shuai.
Shuai shuai means like take it like easy easy. I was like, all right.
Um, I said what's going on and the sentiment from him was that you know He's scared to meet the lord was like the verbatim quote.
I said well, yeah, it would be too like just repent literally turn. Come on. Just go the other way. And what we've seen over the course of the last what five years maybe where there's been multiple little pop-up repentances Is a fear of I think what he knows to be a coming judgment if he doesn't repent.
But also I think a second corinthian seven worldly sorrow a man I I really have made some mistakes, man. I've really got quite the legacy here and what you're having now is some in that camp fight for his legacy.
So there's a book that just came out by a guy named kent maddox. Anybody heard of him before? Kent maddox. So kent maddox was like one of my uncle's key guys. He wrote a book. It just came out. Don't buy it.
It'll only help his. His ranking on amazon.
Uh, but it's.
Uh, benny hinn and the impact he's had on my life or something like that. And now it's starting where these guys say I know there's so many out there who criticize and some who are even close to him and you're like, yeah, I know I mean I get it but.
You know with this man the true anointing and when he and he's never fought back because that's what a real man of god does. And so you have this odd because I don't fight back. I'm noble. And that has been the cadence.
It's a fear of the end a fight for the legacy. Never a repentance and even behind closed doors when i'll hear families say like hey, he's different. He really that's the famous line that I get and i'm not jaded.
I really want it to be true. But my wife and I were just in a conversation two weeks ago with a family member. And I don't want to name them because we're having good conversations. But this individual said cost.
My whole family calls me cost short nickname cost. Uncle benny. It's different. He's so different. It's like he's getting old. He's thinking near the end like he's just he's different. It's not the same.
I think something's happened. I'm just like awesome like when. When are we meeting up like let's go let's do it and they're like, no, it's not like that. I'm, like well, then what is it? And they're always like you're so intense with all this just lighten up with them.
Like it's people change and sometimes they don't need to like come out and you know. Have a big thing about it and i'm like, yeah, they do and they've been teaching fall sleeper. Yeah, so these are the things that happen behind the scenes.
And maybe i'm too black and white for some or it's too intense. But in my mind if you've been a public figure teaching falsely and we're not talking like oh you had a little Cult in your town. So just go deal with them like best-selling books thomas nelson publishing like worldwide global.
Famous like you can't you don't just go away to he's living in florida now. You don't just go like in your little retirement home on the beach and like lay low. And then die and just do facebook lives.
And some people are paying your bills when paul got saved. Total 180. Zacchaeus. Went crazy in repent it. So it's a lot more like judas.
Than peter and these others one other question about your family to move on from that. You mentioned your sisters. How many siblings do you have. Two? Two sisters older younger one older one younger. All right, and.
Have you had conversations with them? Where are they at in observing you and where you're at? Yeah, we just had a lunch in.
Dallas when I was there and um, they were so they have been In redding which with bethel sacramento jesus culture. Charlotte with furtick. I'm, not kidding.
They were living they were in fort worth with todd white. My sister was his worship pastor and my brother-in-law was an executive pastor and then. Now and then they were at mercy culture, which is a church in fort worth after they had a split with todd.
And now they are moving to florida Where my uncle and they're gonna do some stuff with jesus image for a little while and i'm like guys.
Um, they haven't even started to come out of that movement then. Well.
This is where it gets weird and complicated in our conversations. Um, one of my sisters said. Like hey, we've they unblocked me on. They all unblocked me on instagram and social media. I was like sweet like i'm i'm out of jail.
And I said hey just so you guys know like we're. You know, sometimes I say things but like it's just truth so I love you guys and. And one of my siblings said oh yeah there. There's so much that you say and that we watch and listen to you.
We agree with you way more than you'd ever think truly. And like we've been listening to ali that's stucky now and we've been listening to this and i'm like, okay. So there is healthy conversation after that lunch.
But they had left todd white's ministry. And so they're but they're still floating and so. It's good heart training. That's what we call it in our home. Christine and I privately like this is great heart training.
Stay soft stay loving stay hopeful because love hopes bears believes endures all these. But yeah, sometimes it is like Okay, we're on our like 13th false teacher. Are you done yet? Like? Come on guys, like it's not you don't need to like go to grace community and.
And you know, but just why don't you just get out of all that but there's so much jadedness from that tbn.
World.
That unless the God of the universe puts their feet on solid ground and plugs them in somewhere. There's solid teaching. They float like almost like a lot of people from the hill song stuff. You know the hill song documentary and all that stuff that's come out.
You have all these people that are just spinning. And they've either left what they thought was the faith, but really all they've left is an organization. Yeah a machine and so they were never really saved.
They were never really blood bought in it. You know with christ really. They just got spit out by something and now they're jaded so that's what I I think a lot of my family members have experienced and it's tough to watch but We keep praying and keep encouraging.
But yeah, there's some weird stuff and interestingly enough on the way home from that trip I was in the airport and I ran into todd todd white and I had my son with me.
And I had him. You get your leg lengthened. Yeah, I did.
Pulled my shoe off. But uh, we had a real we had a real honest conversation right there in the little hudson news store. I was just trying to get a bottle of water and titus my son stood like four feet away because i'm not like prosperity gospel superstitious anymore, but I you know.
He needs to stand like four or five feet away so he stood over by the way, just my. I didn't want him to hear everything and. And I had a real if I if I had one opportunity that's the last time I ever get to see todd white in person and talk to him.
I I told him everything I could and would have.
He cried and said I love you and I was like, I don't know if that's a good thing or just like a show but.
It would it would have been it was something that like if someone was walking by and knew who we were and had a phone On them like it would be one of those. I filmed that but that's how real it is for me like they're they're all Lost and still alive.
Yeah, so like I gotta tell him.
I uh first time I heard of your salvation justin texted me and he said Hey, brother, you need to. You need to listen to this voicemail. I'm about to send you you do that better than I do you? So he forwarded me the voice message that you left him on his phone.
Yeah his ministry phone and it was two or three minutes where you introduced who you were. What your background was that you got soundly saved. Yeah, and I immediately called justin and I said justin What do you think of that?
And he said go. No, he he said it sounds legit. But i'm gonna call him up and i'm gonna ask him some serious questions because if this is true Then I want to hear this story. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, it was.
I never forget that day.
Uh, how much speaking and preaching. Moving off family relations for a little bit. How much speaking and preaching do you do outside your local.
Church ministry. Yeah, maybe like six to seven things a year i'll do.
Okay, how many kids do you have. Five get names? Titus ages too as well titus.
So i'll give you the ages based on the birthdays coming up in like two months. So that way. So titus is nine in august. Grace will be seven in august. Timothy just turned five in may. He's may the fourth so may the fourth be with you.
He's a little star wars kid uh. Ruth Is three. She just turned three on april 1st. And lydia noel is seven months old.
Yeah, she's almost almost eight months old and you're homeschooling kids. Public school private school they're currently in a.
Uh local christian school because we Somehow we don't make enough. We somehow got in we don't I don't make enough money to uh have to pay so we get free tuition. Um on the pastor's discount and then arizona is really cool.
You already live in a great place. So none of you need to move but if If we're in like portland, I would tell people hey, arizona has this program where they give. They have an esa program. They basically give parents seven thousand dollars a year per kid.
For schooling you can homeschool or go to a private school. So I have a really good friend. He's the superintendent of a christian school. It's like the last really awesome because I speak there regularly we have church members who are teachers so um it goes there and then probably start homeschooling them here in the next few years mainly because I I like them with us.
We've been having a blast and love the discipleship element and I would have brought One of them with me but on trips like this when it's all prosperity gospel and it's all this topic um, he's too literal and so it tends to he'll just he it's he's already heard it once and so i'm like You stay home.
He was he told me dad. I I sat through six hours of preaching the last one I went under pastor charles to hv charles pastor tom pennington like I can handle it. I'm, like it's not that I think i'm just gonna go I gotta say a lot of things that you've already heard and I don't need you don't need to sit there on this one.
He's like, all right. I'm like, okay.
So there we're all in together when one of your children has an illness.
Yeah, timothy was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer at three months old and is doing really great. And um, that was an interesting family dynamic when we told them all. And genuinely one of my it was my brother-in-law.
He asked so honest question. I said fire away. He said is there not even one small part of you that thinks like? It's because of stuff you've said it was like. No, he's like, all right, you're that confident I said absolutely like beyond so.
He was born or diagnosed with that.
You said that was your first kid third timothy.
That happened Shortly after you got saved a couple of years after you got saved right? Yeah. So timothy was born in 2018.
Okay, so titus was 2014 grace 2016. They're all two years apart timothy 2018. So we had kind of crossed through like, uh, defining deception had come out in 2017. And I was regularly. Like it had been probably three.
What is that three or four years at that point of discipleship in seminary? Was a pastor again or the family life pastor at our church serving like our families and children ministry. And started to be asked to speak on these issues a bit.
Justin interviewed me stuff like that.
So based on that when his the god green prosperity gospel book wasn't out till 2019. Okay, so when timothy was born and he got diagnosed three months in so that summer. They they were really fresh off of like a year ago.
You released defining deception and now this like you're. Or you wrote it and we've known it's coming. Like you're this is you're touching the lord's anointed.
So, how does that play theologically with your family members particularly your mom and dad. Yeah in the midst of that you've got to be having conversations. I guess we're coming back to the family issue again.
But you gotta be having conversations with your mom and dad about look dad. If you had the ability to heal or if uncle benny has the ability to heal he could. He could heal like jesus heals and just say the word.
He doesn't have to be present. He can just say the word and command and it'd be done. Yeah, so the fact that I have a child that is Ill and been diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and he's not being healed that's Huge theological issue or at least a a a hurdle for them.
I would think was it at all?
No, and the reason is this I already knew their tactics. So I went with a more truth driven rather than a challenge approach and here's what I mean by that. There's a place for what you just said. Covid was one of them like okay faith healers like here's your chance.
That would be in my opinion because it's so wide scale you're just like hello. And it almost is a time to in a sanctified way mock their mock their elijah on malcarmel. Totally. Yep with this I went more of a Hey, you know, he's been diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and we trust the lord and and in that moment one of my my dad in particular he Kind of rose up.
They're at our table Christine i'm there. We're alone with them and he said No, no cancer won't touch this house in jesus name and it was my wife who is just not Like this vocally ever even if she says it after when they're gone.
She like hit the table godly, but just like she said no and I was like, oh, here we go. And she said cancer has touched this home and she's like crying her little fist, you know on the table cancer has touched this home.
And we trust the lord and he gives and he takes away and she goes on this little like sermonette on the sovereignty of god.
She says and we will trust and I don't want my son to die but even if he does god is still good and she's just like going off and So it it was more of a god is sovereign we trust him your your little in jesus name cancer won't touch this house Isn't working and never will.
It has touched this home too late and here's our theology on this so That route became a very interesting checkpoint. Now. Here's what they would have done and this is Applicable to where he's at now.
Timothy just crossed through one of his important and really important appointments to be five years old. They wanted five year old birthday with no major incidents and he hasn't.
Uh, so.
But what my family members will do if let's say he's he older just never comes back. If you leave it to those arguments they'll say Either well god Why why would we heal you the lord you touch the lord's anointed even we can't stop that.
So there's answer one. So you go. I'm not going to challenge that two there's the well We chose to pray for you and have mercy On you and not the lord gives us the choice sometimes to allow him to curse or to bless and because we love you we've said bless and so We're not going to fight you and now they look noble.
So it's a real twisted sick game Of if he's not healed It's because we have said And you've touched the lord's anointed if he if it does go well it's because We've decided to stay silent while you are on whatever crusade you're on against us.
We have taken the high road We will bless you and we love you. And so whatever it is. It's the sickest pr Twist ever but so you don't play I don't play to those cards. I just go theology theology theology God sovereign he's and so when it all goes well, they can claim whatever they claim but in the end it's like no god God's in charge.
So that's been helpful for some of these conversations. I think I do think they were waiting for Everything to implode. I don't say this arrogantly at all. There's no What is boasting? We have nothing that the lord hasn't given they were waiting for My son to get worse our marriage to fall apart my life to start You know falling apart and us to get sick and everything to go bad.
And when the lord you go through trials still but when the lord Doesn't kill my son for now we lord willing we're all who knows what tomorrow holds and We're just keep preaching the bible. And everything's kind of simple.
My mom called it recently stability. She said there's just this stability with you guys and i'm like mom it's because of sound doctrine. That's what it is. See. I know it's just. And you know when my siblings move around to visit like a dozen false teachers and keep deciding.
Oh god's moving us here now. I think just like macarthur others have said truth and time go hand in hand. You just let and I pray that with the lord. I say lord make us real like I want to be real saved real pastor a real church.
Like don't just let us be let us be faithful. Don't let us ever.
Wander from your Your word. So with that my hope is over the years. That if we just serve the lord that he would he would let that be a witness to some of my family members. Like hey, are you now convinced that your stuff doesn't work?
Um, i'll tell you what does. And I don't want to make you look bad. I just want you to know the lord. So if that makes sense.
Yeah, it's a good approach.
The guy that did the first session went long so we're gonna have to speed this up a bit. So rapid fire answer this you go down the family rabbit hole and it's a mess. Yeah. Uh, what are your hobbies and non-ministry interests other than hockey and baseball, uh, yeah, you took away the two two big ones.
Uh, I love to hunt. I like the outdoors.
Going hunting this fall to wyoming with my boy and then I like to go on family walks. I love to hang out with my wife.
I like i'm pretty rough. I like to I. I have a men's bible study. We don't do it often, but we we put out mats. We do jiu-jitsu. I like to fight a little. Um, my boys and I wrestle just like playing sports and I like reading too.
Kind of a bible nerd. Okay up to.
After john macarthur's commentary on john and after church awakening by chuck swindoll. What are five books that have radically influenced and shaped you since your epiphany.
After macarthur's what?
John five commentary. His commentary on yes, so that's obviously an influential book. So five others than those two that have that have radically shaped. All right. Master's plan for the church.
And i'm not I won't sorry. It's like the john macarthur gty bookstore promo ad. Yeah, it's not Master's plan for the church. I can't say enough about it. It's just one of those ecclesiology books that that knock your socks off and you go Why are we doing why would we not do church biblically?
Another one was jmax styles evangelism, it's this little red book and I read that and it it gave me a good Understanding of evangelism and how I should be. And then there was another one at that time back then.
It was a little blue book by mark dever called discipling. And it was all about how you should be in the life of your people. You should be making disciples in the local church. You should be meeting with people and I was like, that's what I should be doing.
And so to make disciples was super helpful. That'd be three in particular that impacted. I could list 10 more but those three in particular were really helpful for How to do church and how to understand?
But I I really did devour. I did my own work. I went to seminary and I wasn't like john macarthur says it I agree. But reading like I read pastoral ministry from the faculty at masters and macarthur's names on it, but there's other guys and that book Showed me what it means.
I strock or strouch.
Alexander strouch's book on biblical eldership. I was like wow plurality. Okay, that'll keep the train on the track. So think books. I read a Ton of biblical church leadership books because I desperately we were talking earlier about the importance of church leadership.
I desperately wanted to know How leadership is supposed to be so that I could try to be that and then just get to serve.
Have you ever gone back and reconnected with the coach?
Oh all the time. Yeah, I just narrated the video for dbu's road to omaha. Oh, uh trailer. They did the script. But and I yeah co-chiefs.
Awesome.
Um, you mentioned Praying for celebrities athletes during your family vacations. Can you give us some names? Uh that maybe you haven't mentioned in the book. I didn't mention today. Yeah, so.
Um, I mentioned daryl strawberry carl everett. Oh, you all know. Well evander holyfield. Everybody knows that story or if you don't it was on youtube. He got healed of a heart condition then went won a fight.
That's like the greatest not good Promo ever for the ministry at that time made him more made him more famous.
T and tamara.
The.
The owner it was the the family you can tell you this here. You know the the family that was going through a lot that ended up getting well, you know the illich family they own uh the redwings and the tigers and little caesars.
It was their their they got in our orbit. Um. So I ended up at the world series really good seats in 2006. Um games one and two and the cardinals played the tigers. Uh, so that whole era was just interesting.
The amount of wealth and. And you know what it is. It's not it's not as though they all bought into my uncle per se but they were front row with their hands up. Some of them were but Rich really really rich people that aren't saved.
Who get sick?
Or have kids that are sick. Or are going through tough times. They just want their great life back. And the prosperity gospel sells you the american dream.
They want that they don't want if jesus can give them that cool. Give me give me jesus as a means to my end. So that was the the heart behind it. Who doesn't want to have a a hall of fame career. Be super rich and have your kids not be sick.
All of them. So they look to these kind of gurus for that.
How did your family your immediate family your mom your dad you guys become rich? Was it because of your uncle benny's ministry and your request writing the coattails of that or did you did your dad have his own?
Little prosperity healing. Get going on on the side.
Yeah, so before we traveled with uncle benny my dad had like church. His own crusades. He was on tv in canada locally and across the nation. Um on it was called vision tv was the title of channel the network.
And uh, his program was called life in the spirit with henry hinn. My dad had a tv program like they were. He copied basically what my uncle was doing in florida.
Then in my teenage years. Big money with traveling with uncle benny and that's what pulled from Our local church like if you looked at what vancouver christian center was the name of it what it became.
It was very bleak. It ended up being very small. It dwindled down and the reason was that the lure of traveling with my uncle. I mean you could make six figures on one trip. Just come back so do that again and again.
And the money we had the amount of like the cars and the.
You just that's basically on salary with your uncle benny as part of that ministry.
Yeah, you paid paid per trip like they would pay per trip and. Big like big like per day amounts per trip. Even a travel day like massive massive amounts big money and. And then too like you you raise money you take offerings that are big like some of the characters that were around.
Steve muncie was this guy from chicago. He's got the blonde hair and looked like he had a lot of plastic surgery.
Seriously, it looks like he said way too much botox, honestly. And so that's how you know him. You're like there's steve muncie and he's a money. He's a money man. He raises big money and he's the guy yelling on tbn like go to your phones right now go to your phones like god's gonna bless you and you just like.
Poor people um, although I know they Raise up teachers in accordance with their own desires. Yeah, so there's that and my dad had a way about him with with fundraising too and and kind of. Being that guy.
So you could get paid pretty good raising money as well.
In your book you tell the story of your uncle george dying of cancer. Yeah, my mom said um. You kind of already addressed this I guess with your son on a more personal level about how. Uh, they deal with that theologically.
Was there a similar crisis or dealing with your uncle george dying of cancer?
Theologically, did they wrestle through that and blame him for lack of faith?
Yeah, he was blamed for.
Not attending there were some weird Weird things that described his death or he decided described his Uh cancer and in stroke and some of the whole things he was dealing with it was a whole conglomerate of things.
One of them was he Uh had spoken against my dad or the ministry and got around the wrong people. So he was. You don't allow Negative voices in your life either. So it's not enough that you don't say anything against them but when you allow others in your life your living room your Friendship circles who speak against a man of god the same things that come upon them will come upon you.
So he had gotten around some people that had left our church some other family members on my mom's side who weren't too thrilled with my dad and some of the antics and You know, they were all they were all in the circle theologically like they would have been just as happy at an assembly of god church that had integrity with the way they dealt with finances and but at that time he was He was pushing Against some things.
You think he was a believer. Yeah, I do think that. I think he was and I think some others were just general normal.
Believe the gospel types. It's not that they were he was reformed or anything like that. Just just charismatic, but. What justin would call clear thinking charismatic in terms of he just saw some of the issues and thought this isn't quite right.
Yeah, and that that's an important distinction. There's a lot of people that have reached out I've talked to before and friends kind people sweet people who are in the assemblies of god organization denomination or.
In some of these circles who say, you know, we don't we don't we're not going to see eye to eye on tongues. And on some of these things costy, but man. Your uncle's a heretic like yep, and We agree with you on everything.
And bethel's a problem and we want nothing to do with them. Like they're. Clear thinking charismatics is a great way to put it. There's a lot of folks like that and they just stay quiet. They tend to stay quiet because they don't want trouble.
They say something and then their own kind start yelling at them and they're just like I. That in their local autonomous church. They operate that way and I think some of these folks were that for sure and others were just following a man.
Last question. How long did it take you after you came out of that movement from when you got saved? To Get over the fear. If you had one that you're speaking out against your uncle and you're not being under the anointing.
Would cause you curses and calamities. How long did it take for you to get over that? Superstition. Almost. I don't remember like not long. I don't remember having a lot of it.
It was gun blazing. Probably too much.
Did you have that fear when you left vancouver to go to california be part of that church plant?
Uh, yeah, so a few times I wondered.
We were broke like food stamps broke and mom and dad weren't sending you a check every month to help sustain you.
No, and we had gotten rid of it. So I was more superstitious. Here's here's one for you. Maybe this is true. Uh, I was getting rid of stuff because I didn't want it in our house because I I felt like.
Remember the sin of achan in joshua 7. There was a ban. He kept some stuff. Remember that? Yeah, and Joshua was mad because the the little hooligans from ai. Do him in and he's like you just took down jericho because we marched around and blew trumpets and now this little Attila the hun comes over and takes us out like what and god goes get up like why are you on your face?
He tells joshua rise up.
Says you're you've been disobedient. So in the same way, I was worried that like louis vuitton purses in the closet my breitling. Nice shoes stuff. I had from the prosper. I'm like get it out of the house anything under the ban get it out, you know.
Or the lord won't bless us in the truth now. So that would have been more my superstition which we did get rid of everything I've had some people now say like you should have kept the hammer a good off-road car.
Yeah, um or like though, but we we got rid of every everything like there were some things that it just I just gave.
To.
Unbelievers at a work event or something here. Um. They're like what like yeah, like things that were worth thousands of dollars and um I didn't know what to do with it all and so some things that got sold and money money was given to the church and I was like.
This donation made in the name of benny hinn.
You know stuff like that was uh, that was what I was more afraid of. I really.
Did.
When.
That moment the john 5 moment happened. Tony had to Had to yank the leash. He had to reign me in. I needed to be discipled to be the mathetes the learners the pupils like the the guy that just Just be quiet and be taught because I wanted to just you know when you know something and you're in it.
And then people defend it. You're like you have. No I like there's stories I don't even tell. Um things I I won't say because it doesn't edify that I pray the lord. Will it'll either come out or there's like lifestyle things and things that Would have been too much tabloid fair.
Like the bible says things not not even fit to be spoken of.
There are so for me it was. The lord opened my eyes I knew that I was on his side And I was saved.
I had no fear and so that like we got death threats and phone calls and there's different times where I slept in the front of our apartment with a shotgun and was like You know, I might have to defend my house tonight if they come try to kill us.
But so that that fear quote like i'm someone may show up to church and You know come after me. But never never if I say things our home's gonna get hit. I was thinking We're on the side of the truth. And I believe god's word and I know we're actually saved even if we die.
We're.
In god's will yes sovereignty total sovereignty.
Absolutely.
All right. That's it for my questions tonight. So Uh, I will close in prayer. When i'm done we'll be dismissed. You're free to leave your books and stuff here on your table if you'd like. Just no valuables you can bring the cards up and put them anywhere on this middle table here.
And we'll do that at the second q a session so let's bow in prayer. Father, we are thankful for what we have heard here tonight. We are reminded again of your sovereign grace your goodness. That you are sovereign in our salvation and that you have appointed All the things that you bring into the lives of your people for our sanctification Our progression and holiness and ultimately for your glory and for our good.
So we thank you for our brother costi that you have brought him out of that darkness and into the kingdom of light. That your dear son and we would pray that his ministry and his faithfulness to the truth We continue to be a testimony to his parents his siblings his family and his uncle benny.
And if it be according to your sovereign will that you would bring salvation to them in your good time. And that they they would glorify you through genuine and true repentance. So we pray that you'd keep him faithful to that end and may you edify and encourage us Throughout this weekend.
We pray in christ's name. Amen. Amen. All right. Thank you costi. Thank you.
Thanks, brother. It's good. All right helpful. Excellent. Yeah, very good.