2023 Equipping Conference with Costi Hinn | Session 1&2

Okay, welcome to our opening night of our 2023 equipping conference.

We're going to get started this evening with a few songs of worship before we introduce our guest speaker.

So would you please stand as we sing How Firm a Foundation. I am with thee,

O be not dismayed, for I am thy God and will still give thee aid.

I'll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand, upheld by my righteous, omnipotent hand.

When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie, my grace all sufficient shall be thy supply.

The flame shall not hurt thee, I only design thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine.

The soul that on Jesus hath bleed for repose,

I will not, I will not, desert to his foes.

That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,

I'll never, no never, no never forsake.

Come be, wondrous mystery, in the dawn of heaven's praises, robed in frail hewness, now the light of life has come.

Look to Christ, who condescended, took on flesh to ransom us.

All the wondrous mystery, he the perfect Son of Man.

In his living, in his suffering, never trace nor stain of sin.

See the true and better come to save the hell -bound man.

Christ the great and sure fulfillment of the law, in him we stand.

All the wondrous mystery, Christ the Lord upon the tree.

In the stead of ruined sinners, hangs the

Lamb in victory. See the price of our redemption, see the

Father's plan unfold. Be sons to glory, grace unmeasured.

All the wondrous mystery, slain by death the

God of life. But no grave could ever restrain him.

Praise the Lord, he is alive. A foretaste of deliverance has the wavering.

Our hope, Christ in power, resurrected as we will be when he comes.

What a foretaste of deliverance, how unwavering.

Our hope, Christ in power, resurrected as we will be when he comes.

Thank you, you may be seated. All right, let's begin with a word of prayer.

Our Father, we are so grateful to You for the many blessings that we get to enjoy together here in freedom, in this place.

Looking forward to a weekend being fed from Your Word. And it is our heart's desire that You would speak to us through Kosti, that You would speak to us in Your Word.

That You would be magnified and glorified through our fellowship, our worship, and all that we learn here this weekend.

We pray Your blessing upon this time. We thank You for the faithful hands that have worked so hard behind the scenes to prepare this for us.

And we pray that You would be honored and glorified through all that transpires through today and tomorrow and into Sunday morning.

We praise You for Your goodness, for Your salvation, and for Your grace. And pray that it would be magnified today in our lives, in our minds, and in our hearts for the glory of Christ our

King. In His name we pray, amen. All right, a couple of announcements.

Welcome, by the way, to our equipping conference. We are excited about this, and we have one of these a year. If this is your first one, we do this around the end of May, 1st of June every year, and you'll see announcements in your booklet as well as on the screen of upcoming conference next year.

Let me give you just a heads -up for the schedule of events. In your booklet, you'll notice it just says Session 1,

Session 2. Kosti didn't get the titles of the sessions to me until about two hours after I had printed these yesterday.

So I'm going to just ask Kosti to give us the title of every session at the beginning so you know what to write down in your booklet.

Tonight's Q &A, which is Session 2, is not questions from the audience.

You should have 3x5 index cards on your table. At some point there, you can write down questions through tonight and into tomorrow, and then at the end of our time tomorrow, our very last session will be a

Q &A where I'll be asking Kosti some of those. So at any time, today or tomorrow, you can come and drop those cards with your question on it on the table at the front here, and those will be incorporated into the final

Q &A tomorrow afternoon. I think that's all I have, so now

I will introduce Kosti. Kosti grew up in a Christian, and I would use that term loosely and put it in air quotes, family.

Probably one that you have heard of, the Hin family. And he has an inside view of a segment of Christianity that most of us do not.

He serves as the teaching pastor at Shepherd's House Bible Church in Chandler, Arizona.

He is a graduate of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and he serves as president and founder of For the

Gospel. He hosts a weekly podcast providing sound doctrine through digital media, and he is the author of Defining Deception, which was your first book, right, with Anthony Wood, and then

God, Greed, and the Prosperity Gospel, which is the one that you got there. And you can come up, and Kosti will autograph that for $100.

Prosperity Gospel dies hard, doesn't it? He has a book titled

More Than a Healer, a book Knowing the Spirit, and then two children's books,

The King Who Found His Self -Control, and In Jesus' Name I Pray. Now, one of those is not available yet, right? The King Who Found His Self -Control is not available yet, but In Jesus' Name I Pray you can get on Amazon.

And he and his wife, Christine, have five children. Will you please welcome Kosti Hinn. Sorry, the guys at our church don't even let me touch the cartoons anymore.

But for showing up, this is great.

There's a lot of other things you could be doing right now. One in particular that I almost stopped and stayed at, there is a yard sale.

And it's a good one to say. And there was a standing bear.

There was an eagle in full spread. There was a 4x4 or a 5x5 bus.

And they were serving food. And I was driving on, and I just looked and I thought, it's so good she's not here with me, because she would just want to move out here and just slow down the pace of life and be at that yard sale.

I kid you not. So I told Gina and Nate and the gang, I made it. And there was a lot of distractions on the way here.

But seriously, thank you. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, so being here is beautiful. Flying into Spokane was like flying home.

And we are big outdoorsy types. And so thank you, Pastor Jim. Thank you so much for letting me serve.

This is a real privilege. And I have habitually called him Jim Osmond, because that's just how

I've been saying it. But I have been rebuked and corrected. Jim Osmond.

It just rolls to Osmond. It just rolls off the tongue. So there is that.

I will write something in the inside of your books if you ask me to. I don't sign

Bibles. That is something I don't do. And I'll tell you a funny story. I don't know if these are being recorded, but we can cut this part out.

I was at a major conference. I won't name the conference. And people were coming up to me asking to sign their Bibles. And it's not a jaded, like came out of the prosperity gospel thing, so now it can never do any of that stuff.

It was just simple. I think if I would have been asked on that side of it, I still would have said no. But I looked at this young woman who had her

Bible and she asked me to sign it. And I said, listen, I don't sign Bibles. Only Jesus should.

He's not here right now in person. But I'll write you a note or sign a book.

And she had opened her Bible, and when I looked at the names that had already signed it, I was mortified. And I thought, none of those men are ungodly.

All of those are my heroes too. Please don't tell them I said that. So you talk about the prosperity gospel dying hard.

So now every once in a while, people will come up to me and they'll go, hey, will you sign my Bible? And I go, they're like, just kidding.

We heard the story. Man, no offense to anyone.

But yeah, thank you so much again for your warmth, your hospitality, and your kindness. The sessions that we're going to go through are all a little different.

The progression is going to work this way. Pastor Jim asked me to share my testimony to start. If that's redundant for some of you, if you heard the story, then just listen again and test to see if I'm still accurate and all of the details line up.

Besides that, in the next session, I've titled it Three Historical Heretics or Three of History's Heretics.

And what I want to do for you in the second session is present to you three particular heroes that influenced my life, our family, the prosperity gospel, and the ministry, and walk you through bios on them so you have a good handle of that.

There are going to be some moments where you're going to sit there and think, hey, that's what this guy does. Or that's what she does.

Or I have totally seen that play before. And what you'll come to find if I achieve the goal and if the material is clear, you will come out of that session thinking, wow, there's really nothing new under the sun.

These are just new faces and new modern strategies on one of the devil's oldest tricks.

So that will put a lot of us at ease while it doesn't change the fact that these are dangerous players and dangerous movements.

That will help you. And then we'll begin to open our Bibles more and more throughout the sessions all the way, of course, until Sunday when we'll walk through a biblical text from the book of Ephesians.

But the first two sessions are highly story -driven or history -driven.

And so bear with me on that. It's been a number of years since I've done any type of conferences where I just share my testimony.

So this is really kind of you to entertain the story once more. If you haven't heard it before,

I hope that it encourages you. But even still, in all those details, my joy is ahead as we open up God's Word and also in the

Q &As as we talk through questions and the practicals. If you will, go to the

Lord with me one more time in prayer. Let me ask for His blessing on this particular session and the one to come with the

Q &A. Father, I want to pause as well. I know Pastor Jim prayed already, but I want to recognize that without You, I wouldn't be here.

None of us would be. That You are the sovereign God who saves. You are a

God of mercy. And Your grace, which is literally Your unmerited favor, has found us.

That You would save us. That You would love us. That You would then give us the privilege of being a part of the body of Christ and be used, be given spiritual gifts, get to use those to edify and build up one another.

All of that is grace upon grace upon grace. And so in this testimony session, would

You help me to be accurate, to be clear? Would You also edify those who hear?

There is a side to this that we loathe, and it is to go back down memory lane, but our purpose is to give

You glory through it. Our purpose is to think about where we've been and then give

You glory and honor and praise for where we are now. All of the credit is Yours. All of the glory, the honor, the praise.

Every detail orchestrated by Your masterful hand.

And so what would we do but pause to say thank You and ask Your blessing on this session and the

Q &A to come. I pray all of this in Jesus' name, Amen. So, to go back to kind of a point in time in my life where I felt like I was on top of the world would be helpful for you, and then

I'll rewind the tape and we'll go back to my childhood. But there was a point now some 17 to 19 years ago,

I haven't thought about it. The last time I shared this with people formally in a setting like this, it was about 15 years total.

So I think we're getting close on 17 to 18 years. But we were at the Grand Resort Laganisi in Greece, and we had flown into Athens.

We were on a ministry trip and used to do layovers in really beautiful places, rent a lot of suites or lease suites or in other times, you know, houses and whatnot.

But in this particular point, we're at this hotel where you have the presidential suite, you got prime minister suites, you got every kind of person in government suite.

So you can picture that. And I'm standing there, and I remember vividly I was wearing a shirt that was a

Canadian shirt. It was a hockey shirt because I'm Canadian and love hockey. And I had these clear non -prescription glasses because I thought

I was like Judah Smith before he was Judah Smith. And everyone was looking trendy using those kind of cool glasses.

And I'm standing there, and we're at the Grand Laganisi Resort. And I remember thinking that I had made it.

Like this was my life. I had arrived and I was young still. And so I knew that there was some time before I would see the fruition of whatever

I believed I was going to be. But I was old enough to think like, this is my trajectory.

I've got it made. And I was flying on a private Gulfstream jet regularly.

Staying in the nicest hotels in the world. Working for my uncle who was Benny Hinn at these crusades and services.

I was a catcher, which is you catch the people who are falling. And I was his assistant on the road. So that meant carrying bags, checking out of hotels, helping with whatever was needed.

And we had the Louis Vuitton luggage, the kind of whole deal. If you ever watch one of those crazy reality shows and you see the

Kardashians or these other people, and you wonder like who in the world spends five grand on luggage. We did.

So those are realities for me. And I'm just living the dream and thinking like this is life.

And I was so confident that it was the John 10 10 abundant life. This was

God's will. If other people didn't have it, our job was to go and show them how they could. If they never really reached that, it was their problem.

They didn't have enough faith. They didn't have a good belief system or they weren't believing and coming under our super anointed covering.

And the irony that day and that trip is that we were staying on the

Aegean Sea, which is connected to portions, bodies of water in which Paul is on his missionary journeys.

And the way I've always described it in post after conversion is standing there right near a body of water where Paul had preached the gospel many times.

The only problem was we weren't preaching anything near what Paul was preaching. And it was years later that the

Lord would open my eyes. But that gives you a picture of what I imagined life would be forever.

Growing up, my father, his name is Henry, pastor to church in Vancouver, British Columbia. He had, along with the family, emigrated technically refugees.

We found out just a couple months ago that they were refugees. They escaped war in Israel. They arrive in Toronto, Canada.

And as refugees, they begin this life in which they go from having a lot in Jaffa, Israel, to then having nothing in Canada.

It was my dad filing for his pension in Canada with my mom. And my mom called me and said, hey,

I've got big family historical news that kind of changes the narrative. I said, what? She said, your dad is actually filed in this country, in Canada, as a refugee.

So it maybe helps you understand a little more of what life was like for your dad. They didn't immigrate. It wasn't like from Jaffa, Israel in a good life, over to Canada, right into things.

It's these refugees that come over from the Middle East, and they are going to make a life for themselves.

And that ties into kind of other ideas in which even for my uncle and many others in the family, proving themselves, becoming wealthy, achieving the

American dream, climbing the ladder, if you will, of some sort of lifestyle, is very normal for refugees or immigrants who come here and say, whatever it takes, we're going to have a better life.

We're going to have a new life. And so my uncle ends up finding his way through these kids at school having very odd experiences, and he finds acceptance within the charismatic movement and charismatic circles.

Catherine Coleman becomes a big hero of his, and he sees this woman who has this power and this aura about her, if you will, and he says, that's what

I want to do. That's my calling. In the meantime, the family is not at all involved with that sort of branch of belief.

They were raised Greek Orthodox, and so that was the belief. They came to Canada for peace, not war.

They came for education, not religion. And so my uncle goes kind of on his merry little way, and slowly but surely, different family members begin to buy in to, at that time, preaching generally repent and believe gospel with a

Catherine Coleman dream kind of hovering above the whole thing. And in those days, there were a lot of guys that would preach the gospel, just like now.

Justin Peters told me one time when we first started talking, he said, brother, I've heard your uncle preach a better gospel than some

Baptist ministers. It's just all the things that come afterwards if he would just stop there.

That was very much a reality. And so in whatever version of the gospel being preached, the family starts one by one buying in, my dad being one of the last, and when he jumps all in, he serves my uncle

Benny. He goes into ministry, following in my uncle's older brother's footsteps, and that leads him on a path down to Orlando, Florida.

That's where I was born, even though I was raised in Vancouver, British Columbia. He goes down to Orlando, and my uncle had started the church

Orlando Christian Center. It was a mega church, all sorts of things going on down there. And from there, my dad plants a church in Vancouver, British Columbia.

It was called Vancouver Christian Center, and it was the same as Orlando Christian Center.

It was just the Canadian version, and so we had healing services on the last Sunday night of every month. You bring the sick.

You line them up on your right and left. He would jet out once in a while and do healing crusades.

The teaching and preaching was very similar to what you would hear from Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland.

If you looked throughout history and read books or saw teaching from Oral Roberts, these were the heroes of the faith for the family.

I grew up in a very much Word of Faith, Prosperity Gospel mixed church.

We were kind of up and coming. A lot of people would come to the church. They liked the church, but there were also a lot of problems.

We would have issues with what we would call dead churches, whether it was Baptists or other denominations, even some in the

Assemblies of God denomination. There was the revoking of papers. There was distance even from some general

Pentecostals from our family. All of it labeled as, well, you guys are doing shady things or you've gone too far.

Well, the way that I grew up dealing with that was really simple. We were attacked, criticized, ostracized, and separated from because we were being persecuted.

Ultimately, the devil had it out for our ministry. And these people who went to dead churches or these other types of Pentecostals that were really just jealous because we had better, more powerful spiritual gifts than them, were really all seeking to undermine our ministry, our power, our authority, and we were just like Jesus, just like the

Apostles. We were being persecuted. I grew up in a home that was in the ballpark of 10 ,000 square feet.

Everything we drove was a Benz, and we lived the high life and enjoyed life.

I viewed the church as a family, no doubt. My friends were in the church. I was part of the youth group.

I sang songs. I watched The Donut Man and McGee and Me and all of these other different shows that maybe some of you remember if you've heard of The Adventures in Odyssey.

We listened to that too, very much in line with things that other people would grow up with.

We sang some hymns. We sang some contemporary music. We sang some Stephen Curtis Chapman and Michael W.

Smith and whatever else was cool at that time. And I remember even growing up that there was a radio station just over the border in Washington State.

It was called Praise 106 .5. And they had this guy that would come on, and he was called the

Bible Answer Man. His name was Hank Hanegraaff, which of course we all know. But he would criticize my uncle.

And he would criticize sometimes my dad. And we'd listen to him, and I remember my dad saying, this guy is just attacking us.

This Bible Answer Man is just a hater on all that God's doing at our church.

There's another example of just a jealous leader who can't stand what we're doing. And all the while,

I was in these early years of my life watching as my uncle grew exponentially in fame as my dad throughout

Canada and traveling with my uncle and going different places around the world was very well known, very powerful.

We were very wealthy. And so I very much believed that everybody else was wrong and we were right.

We were in the center of the universe. Over the course of my teenage years, my dad more and more traveled with my uncle because my uncle had left his church and began to travel full -time and do crusades.

And it was around that time where we got heavily involved from an employment standpoint and become very close.

We were always really close with family because in the Middle Eastern family and with the prosperity gospel ties running through it,

I've often described it as a mixture between the royal family and the mafia because you had the wealth and the family attachment of the royal family and even the attention and the focus and the care that would happen there because we were kind of it, top of the hill.

And then you had the mafia because you just never turn your back on family. You always roll with family.

Blood is thicker than water. Every other one -liner you could think of, you absolutely always side with family.

So throughout those teenage years, we traveled with Uncle Benny. He always treated me incredibly well.

I was very close with him and most of my other uncles. Very tight with my cousins. Everything was incredibly great to say it in just a simple way.

But there were certain cracks that were forming in the dam throughout those years. In the early years of my life, there were kids that would say, you know, your uncle's a false teacher.

My dad says that your dad is a liar and a scammer. I would just think, these kids that go to dead churches, they just need the

Holy Spirit. As I got older, things got a little more serious. There was a gal in my high school class who was on the swim team.

She was healthy. She was popular. She ended up getting a form of cancer. I remember asking my dad if we could just go heal her.

Just go pray for her. She's one of our friends. Just go handle it. I remember that being met with kind of a, well, they don't really believe like us.

They don't really have enough faith. In my mind, and even in some of my responses with family,

I would think and say, well, let's just go do it. Then they'll all believe it.

We'll just heal her. I really did believe that we could heal. When I was at healing services, even at our church, and people would come up.

Imagine, it would never happen here, but just imagine in your, what JP calls your sanctified imagination.

Keep it sanctified. People lined up on my right and my left. As they come up, they're walking across the platform and you pray for them and they fall and the ushers are catching and the whole thing.

You're sitting there as a kid just thinking, wow, look at these people. Everyone's crying. You're singing Hallelujah or whatever song just keeps playing.

You would invite friends and people would come. I remember our church would grow by like 200 people on Sunday nights because all the people from other churches would come to get their healing or to get prayed for.

All that did was serve as more evidence that to experience the power of God, they've got to come here.

To experience healing and real church and real ministry, where do they go at the end of the day? Here. I thought as even a young man that a lot of people go to these different churches because they have to or they've got friends there, family there, but really, they all want to be at our church.

They all know who the best in ministry is. Who the most powerful is. Who has the real anointing and the real authority.

At that particular time, I didn't go against my family. I didn't think, oh, they couldn't heal my friend.

But I call it a crack in the dam because it opened up just a small amount of doubt that what we say we could do, we're not doing.

I heard certain family members boast that verbatim, they would say, I have all nine gifts.

If you read the New Testament, there's more than nine spiritual gifts. But there are about nine, let's say, miraculous gifts.

That's what they were referring to. Those in particular. They would say, these family members in particular, that we can operate in all of these at any given time.

And so the amount of arrogance and the amount of pride was so deep and so wide that it permeated every ounce of our conversations and the way that we viewed ourselves in ministry.

And so if we didn't do things, there was only one particular person to blame. It was never us.

It was always the person who didn't have enough faith. Who didn't believe like us. Who wasn't obedient or submissive enough.

There were multiple moments throughout my teenage years. And these are stories I haven't told much yet because they were too close still and there were still some conversations

I need to have. But I've had all those now. Where particular people left our church. And these are fascinating conversations for me to have now, decades later.

And at the time, whether it was our church or another family member's church, they would be threatened that death, heart attacks, cancer, prodigal children, their family losing their salvation, losing money would befall them, would come upon them if they left our apostolic covering.

And I remember years later, I was at a particular concert and I ran into one of those families and we had a really big conversation and there were things that the

Lord had done in their life and opened their eyes to. But that was the way it was.

And that's why I would say it was very much like the mafia in that if you leave this, you're done, you're dead, and divine judgment would find you.

As high school was winding down, we were coming out of this era where a local newspaper came after my dad.

He hit the news nationally. There was a helicopter flying over our house at one point and I remember because we were in the basement, we had this really nice built out basement with ping pong table and foosball and like bubble hockey because I was

Canadian again. And we had this big theater room. We were all in the theater room and we were basically watching the news about us.

There was a helicopter flying over our home and they released a magazine article that was titled

Jesus the Devil and Henry Hinn and it was about my dad. It was in a business journal and we were so proud of it that they would fly a helicopter over our house because they were jealous of how big it was.

That God's blessing on a man of God was seen through how much money he had and how big his house was and the world needs to get with it and church folk are just jealous and so someone hired a helicopter to fly over our house because they're really just jealous about all that we had.

As I come out of my high school years, there's really only one thing I want to do at that time and it's play baseball. I was playing baseball throughout high school.

I wanted to play in college and eventually play pro or go as far as I could. My dream was to be in the big leagues and so like any kid,

I knew I had to go to college or at least figure out a way to get drafted and before seeing my dream come true, there was something that I needed to do and this is again part of the belief system.

If I wanted God to bless me, if I wanted Him to do what I desired, then I would need to make an offering of some sort or to give

Him my first fruits and so I remember talking with family and seeking wise counsel and the wisdom was you should take a year and you should give it to Uncle Benny.

You should serve him in the ministry. Go work for him. And then go to college, play baseball and it made total sense to me as I thought if I want

God to give me the desires of my heart and I want to play baseball and I want to be in the big leagues and I want to this and that and the other, then

I need to sow a seed of faith into His ministry and money wasn't really what

I was thinking of. I thought the greatest gift that I can give because I'm part of the family is to lay down my dream, to give my time and serve

Him and so before going to college, I took a year off. I joined His ministry and that's when I was a catcher and was serving with Him and that year in particular, it was a year plus, we ended up staying in some of the nicest hotels in the world.

It's where I've talked about a hotel called the Burj Al Arab in Dubai. We stayed in the Royal Suite. It was $25 ,000 a night

US and we had other suites along with it and a lot of those other suites were around $1 ,000 per night and the reason

I know those numbers and remember those numbers is because I was assisting, helping to check out of hotels and checking in and I was standing with my dad in our room or his room actually because I ended up staying in the

Royal Suite because there were several bedrooms and it's a massive square footage and one of my, well, my brother -in -law's brother married my cousin.

This is a side note but there are two brothers, Michael and Theo Koulianos.

That'd be another topic for another time but Michael is head of Jesus Image and they're kind of a very up -and -coming.

They've already upped and gotten. They're absorbing a lot of my uncle's partners and a lot of his ministry momentum.

Jesus Image is Michael Koulianos and Jessica, my Uncle Benny's daughter and then Theo married my sister and so Greek brothers.

Well, Michael was on the road with us as well so Michael and I were staying in the Royal Suite. Uncle Benny had his monstrous room and we had ours and I remember just living the dream.

It was like living in one of those weird music videos where like there's a bunch of nice cars and Bentleys and all these crazy hotels and it's just, it's worldly and it's wild and you're out there living the dream and then it's ministry and you kind of turn the switch on and off where it's time to minister so you go be spiritual and then it's time to live it up and so you just go and enjoy yourself and we flew all over the place.

At one point, we stayed at this hotel called Villa D 'Este and it was on Lake Como which is where like George Clooney lives.

It's in Italy. Beautiful place. There's one of the James Bond movies was filmed there and we're enjoying that.

We're flying all over the world. We're staying in the nicest hotels.

At one point, we were staying at the Hotel de Paris in Monaco, in Monte Carlo and I remember going to the casino next door and gambling and like hanging out and just enjoying the life there.

I shopped at Versace. I mean everything we bought was just high caliber and high class and this was the life and during that season, there were a lot of prophecies made over my life that I would be next, that I would be the heir apparent.

I was the oldest Costi. There's four of us and one of them, one of my cousins passed away a couple years ago but there's four

Costis and the way that it works in the family is you name your firstborn son after your father so my grandfather's name was

Costandi or Costi and full name is Costandi and my dad had the first Costi, that's me and there's like significance to that and so I'm to carry on the family name out of all the cousins and typical, like my big fat

Greek wedding stuff, it's like that times 10 and so traveling with him, working for Uncle Benny, being around the family,

I would be prophesied over and so I remember one time, Oral Roberts laying his hands on me and to give you a full picture,

I wasn't fully bought in to, man I gotta get Oral Roberts to lay hands on me.

The actual story, and I wrote this, it's in the opening chapter of the book and it's about the most ridiculous story and the most childish story but it gives you a picture of where I was at.

I'm working for my uncle and I'm back in the green room and I'm eating Cheez -Its or something like that and my dad just comes bursting in and Oral Roberts is about to head out and he wants me to be prayed for so that Oral Roberts can give me a double portion or whatever.

I was getting really old and I just remember his big sweaty hand, big hands, he was a big guy and he laid it on my head and said something,

I don't even remember but it was some sort of prophecy, double portion stuff and there was another night where this guy named

Steve Brock, he was one of my uncle's famous singers, made this big elaborate prophecy that I'm to take over my father's church and then

I'm gonna take the healing ministry from all the family to heights that it had never seen and all this stuff and everyone's crying and I'm like sweet,

I'm gonna be rich, I'm gonna be next, I'm gonna live in a big house, I really just want nice cars and okay,

I want to keep flying in private planes and all the while, the way that the ministry was framed, there were

NFL players, big league players, there was at one point where we were flown somewhere and a particular owner and I'll spare their identity on purpose just to respect them,

I don't know where they're at now in life but they owned a major food chain and two major sports franchises and we flew into where they lived, they came onto the plane and one of the family members had cancer and they had particularly given a massive donation and my uncle prayed for them and so all the while,

I remember going to Without Walls Church before Paula White and my uncle got caught on camera or whatever with a photo holding hands in Rome and on the stage at Without Walls was

Carl Everett who at the time was playing for the Red Sox, there were multiple players that were around that orbit,

Darryl Strawberry, before he hit the conference circuit, I don't know where he came from but now he's everywhere, I'm like okay, as long as you're preaching the right gospel but I remember you, there's this whole gauntlet of figures at one point,

I don't know how many of you guys remember Sister's Sister, remember Tia and Tamara, that show, I watched it as a kid, they ended up on stage at a crusade because they were kind of in the circle, so you have celebrity, you have athletes, you have major wealth and all the while, no matter what weird things you see going on or what scam you think might be happening based on what someone said is going on, how can all of these people who are famous, who are wealthy, who are influential, be getting taken?

There's no way and so I thought, living the dream, I'd seen some things, there were some troubles but all the while,

I would keep fighting those with, yeah but all of these people, it must be true.

There was a couple of moments in particular that ended up being used by the Lord later on, one was in India in particular, there was over a million people at the service, this is on YouTube, we had leased out a bunch of land and the people went as far as the eye could see, true story and there were barricades between the stage and us and my dad one night took me down to the healing lines, he worked a lot of the healing lines and he takes me down there and I remember it feeling like a scene, of course it's my younger mind and it's all overwhelming because I'm at that age and I'm having these experiences emotionally where I'm like, something's going on but I don't think it is and I'm caught between family but I would describe it as one of those scenes from like Private Ryan or a war movie where it just seems like chaos is happening, bullets are flying, everyone's yelling, things are tinging off walls and there's a bunch of noise except it was in this whole section where people were crying out for healing, they put the sick in one area, it's similar to the healing crusades in the arenas where they'd put all the wheelchairs in one section, at this particular instance they had put in this one particular section all of the sick and it was not first world sickness in the medical term of things, it was more man made and handmade and smelt and people were there and I just remember walking through with my dad and it was like a war zone and I looked up and this moment seared in my mind and my uncle was on stage singing or something like that, he's in this perfectly white suit, the suits were made by Monsieur Bichon in Beverly Hills, Monsieur Bichon had a really nice yellow

Rolls Royce and he had a Bentley and a lot of other cars too but the presidents would shop there and we'd go get these suits custom made, they had the little dove, he had the little knee rue collar that looks like a

James Bond villain with the suit and all that stuff and I looked up, perfectly white suit, the choir's all in blue behind him and again, not in the moment, but years later, that flashed in my mind as the dichotomy between the man who could heal and who had the anointing or if he was accused of saying he could heal, he'd say,

I'm not the healer, only God is, I just pray for people, all that stuff, all the masterful

PR and years later, that moment came to bear on my mind but in all of that,

I still pushed the thoughts, pushed the questions away. After all that, ended up going to play baseball,

I played in California for a few years at a community college there, lived with my uncle for a bit, drove one of my aunt's

Cadillac Escalades and lived the dream and then started playing baseball and my parents ended up moving there, getting another place and so now we're in Orange County in Canada, two places, two homes, living it up.

At that time, I drove a really nice Hummer that had TVs in the screens that I'd turn on even though no one would be in the car.

I had rims that, because I saw what Sammy Soso was driving who was a pretty famous baseball player at the time.

I found out what rims he had, I bought the same ones, I mean the whole thing was just all done up and I go and the

Lord opens the door, I didn't realize that he was doing it although I thought he was because I was praying to a God somewhere that he would open the door for me to play baseball so I end up at Dallas Baptist University and at that time,

I would say you could call this particular category in my testimony, the coach. My coach who's still there,

Dan Hefner, was a old school, raised in Iowa, you know, families involved in ministry, old school, small town guy who probably thought my family was crazy but was really nice and didn't really say it that way but he would have us go through discipleship and have us do

Bible memory verses and things of that sort so I joined a Bible study, I was part of the team, enjoyed playing, loved the game, loved being there and one day,

I remember him calling us all up in a huddle and it was a practice, we were playing a scrimmage game, we'd call them seven, eight, nines where you basically play inning seven, eight and inning nine, he'd put a runner on second and kind of stage the whole thing and put pressure on you guys as players and everybody was a little nervous because there was a

New York Yankee scout there of all teams as well if it was like, at that time, the Royals who got good,

I know but you know, if it was just some, you know, random team but it was a

Yankee scout and he was there to watch a player named Victor Black who ended up being a supplemental first rounder, a guy named

Ryan Goins, one of my buddies who ended up playing for the Blue Jays, he's there to watch good players but if you play well on a day where a scout's there to see other players, you can get put on the list or you end up getting drafted and so all these guys on the team are real uptight and Coach Hefner calls us all up and goes, hey guys, listen, relax, okay,

I know there's a scout here, I know it's the Yankees but listen, relax. Proverbs 21, one says, the heart of a king is like channels of water in the hand of the

Lord, he turns it wherever he wishes, God controls kings, God controls scouts, God controls whether you get drafted or not so just go out there, play the game, have fun, he's sovereign, don't worry about it.

And I remember in my mind thinking, like, what in the world are you talking about?

Like, sovereignty. Like, and if there is sovereignty, how do I get on the good side of that and get it to work for me?

Because I'm so used to God being a puppet in a sense, on a string and my confession gets him to do stuff, my offerings, my first fruits or whatever else and I remember also thinking, like, whatever this guy's talking about, he doesn't know how to get

God to work. I do. He was literally driving a white Camry, he was just a weird

Baptist guy who seemed pretty boring and plain and I was driving a Hummer still, I had a

Breitling watch which was like a $10 ,000 limited edition watch that I'd been given as a gift and lived in my own apartment, like some fancy apartment off campus, didn't even live where the team lived and where most of the players, like normal college guys were.

I went to Gateway Church because that was the connection with the family and if you don't know that church,

Robert Morris and Todd White was a member there for a while, crazy church in South Lake, in Dallas, big church, but, you know, and I'm looking at this guy thinking, what does he know about getting

God to do anything that he wants? He's just a coach of a little Baptist school, you know, it was

SBC school at the time. He was a model, though, of genuine faith, he loved scripture and over time

I began to see his life. I was home one time from a family holiday or typically where players would go home to see their family and coach invited the guys over to the house who were home and weren't going, or who were in Dallas still and weren't going home and I remember being in his house and watching the way that his wife was and he had five sons, five boys, and I remember looking at the way he was with them and the way he carried himself and he was calm, he was collected, he was biblical, he would rise early, he was in the word and slowly but surely that had a huge impact on my life and that planted a massive seed, though.

The sovereignty of God was always looming in my mind as some weird thing. I never got drafted, never got

God to do anything for me after that with baseball in that regard and I come out of DBU, had a great time, graduate from Dallas Baptist and the next part of my testimony

I would call the girl. Just a few months after being home for the summer and then into the fall

I ended up meeting my now wife, Christine and I wasn't really serving the

Lord all out at that point. I got invited to a country concert and so I played baseball, I like country music so I ended up at this concert at Lake Elsinore Storm Stadium.

Jason Aldean was in concert. One of my buddies invited me so I was the third wheel. It was him and his girlfriend and me and I remember seeing this gal as I just looked over and it was

Christine and for no reason except obviously now looking back the providence of God I looked over at my buddy

Jeff who married Laura who we're with. They have four kids. They live in Dallas. He's a Dallas firefighter now serving the

Lord. I remember looking over at him and he's like, what? And I said, I got to know that girl and he was like, what?

What is wrong with you? I said, I don't know. I got to know that girl and for no reason at all and so I go on and on and I'm trying to figure out a way to meet this girl and I went,

I got it and true story, I still had the Hummer. We had been tailgating throwing the football around hanging out and the car had died because we had the doors open.

It wasn't on. We had just been listening to music and so the car had died and I said I'm going to ask him for a jump.

He's like, and then what? I'm like, I don't know. I'll figure it out but I got from concert seats to the parking lot to make my next move.

I don't know but we'll see so I walk over and I ask her and this other gal she's with my now sister -in -law hey gals, we're just sitting over there.

My car died and after the concert would you be willing to give us a jump? And they were like, yeah, sure. Like real polite so I go back to the seats like what'd they say?

I'm like, they'll give us a jump. He's like, great. Like this, I don't well, we need the jump anyway but like, all right.

So we end up walking concert ends we end up walking back towards the car we're all striking up conversation just talking and my buddy ends up having a mutual friend with her and I'm just like giving him the signal

I keep talking I have no idea what I'm going to say to her but I just, I got to know her and for whatever reasons that God allows these things don't go to Jason Aldean concerts and try to meet girls that's not the lesson here at all, at all.

You know, the providence of God was working even through that moment. Isn't that amazing?

That God is working through a fool, me and puts me in the right place at the right time seats away from this gal who has no correlation to my background whatsoever and I run into my now wife.

We end up talking we're on our way back to the car and I said hey, are you guys coming to the concert again tomorrow?

It was a Sunday, the next day and they said yeah, are you?

And I said yeah but she has to sing at church my buddy's girlfriend was singing the next day on the worship team and that was a church they don't go to anymore that you could be on the worship team and then be out at Jason Aldean concerts on Saturday night but which

I know might be a little legalistic it's okay. So for whatever reason she's singing and they said oh you're church people this is what my sister -in -law said she goes oh church people well you're like her she's a little church girl too and she sasses

Christine and I said oh where are you going to church? And she's like oh I've just been going to Saddleback on my own and listening to Rick Warren and just kind of learning and growing and I'm like okay and that's cool because Rick Warren is like whatever to me at that point like Saddleback's just this big church some of you are like red flags, red flags you know and here we are like thank

God for his grace okay and so I'm like oh that's awesome you need to go to Saddleback and you're learning about God and so I said well yeah let's meet up tomorrow it would be great to talk more and get to know you and so the next day we'll come to the concert and I ask her if I could take her to dinner and she says no

I'm really busy I got school and work pretty much every day I said alright what are you doing tomorrow? She's like school and work I'm like cool

Tuesday school and work Wednesday I remember doing that like I wasn't giving up and her sister says she'll be free

Wednesday she'll be free on Wednesday and I was like alright and turns out she had to switch shifts she worked at TGI Fridays and was a server there so she switches her shift with some other person and we go in the state and we end up talking and talking and talking and we were polar opposite she drove she ended up driving a

Yaris a Toyota Yaris I had my Hummer very different she is introverted she is not she is mellow hardworking blue collar my father -in -law worked for a steel company at the time he was in charge of metal decking my mother -in -law is still to this day a teacher and I'm trying to explain like yeah my family ministry and you know they one of my you know

I'm trying to like explain how I have a Hummer because it's not making a lot of sense at this point even in my mind because the minute you meet like blue collar actually wealthy people and you try to explain well we're in ministry and like wow what ministry is that that you and so we end up talking and here's what she starts asking questions about like so what what's like the trinity and stuff like that because she's really new she went to Azusa Pacific University was in nursing there and just wanted to know more about God and so I would tell her stuff about the trinity and it was true

I never said like my uncle that he's nine persons or anything weird like that we you'd maybe heard online she asked me about like the

Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and I would explain each person in the trinity I knew my Bible I knew verses

I knew the gospel I knew how you could be saved I just had all of this baggage with it like second baptism and speaking in tongues and healing and also weird teachings about the anointing and what it meant to be called by God there were a lot of different things and slowly but surely

I was challenged by family members as they began to understand there's this gal and she's not going anywhere she's just still in the picture and so I remember

I wanted to introduce them to my family I kept her separate from my family for quite a while because I knew where this was going and one day this is my mom

God bless her I just talked to her earlier today I'll explain more of that in the Q &A but at that time my mom said alright so this girl is she spirit filled and I was like mom don't you start that you know yes she's spirit filled we all get the

Holy Spirit when we get saved because I had gone to a Baptist school so I got at least that in New Testament survey right it was the basics the basics even though I was a kinesiology major you still had to take

Old Testament survey and New Testament survey and there was a pastor in New Testament who was the pastor of First Baptist Burleson, Texas that was one of my professors and I'll never forget he had been listing off names on the roll and he goes

Costi Han like with a Texas twang I'm like here he goes you kin to Benny and I said yes sir he goes oh boy and I was like alright that was

DBU and so you know he was nice to me but you know

I got a lot he made a lot of jokes when we got to like the tongue section of the New Testament and so I had been talked to enough to know some things and my mom said no no no you know what

I mean and I said no and I please don't I remember my family kind of figuring this girl's not going anywhere so we need to put the fix on her it's time she needs to become one of us because she's going to marry

Costi and so she had to go to different services there is YouTube footage if you find it

I'll send you a free book good luck but she is at a particular service it's a good

Friday service there's her hint and there it's at Uncle Benny Crusade and it's a good

Friday service and she is like in the crowd and the camera keeps putting her on I don't know why for some reason maybe they knew that I was dating her or whatever and she's lifting her hands and singing the songs and you know my uncle prayed for her after they tried to get her tongues and tried to get her like in and she was very sweet and very kind but very resistant internally

Christine's just not into that stuff and the longer she was around the family the more she would resist it quietly but all the while the family began to think there was really something wrong with her and so there were prophecies at that time one family member came to me and said don't care how nice she is don't care how pretty she is she's not your wife and I said oh yeah she's not okay how do you know and well

God told me she's not your wife one particular family member said she'll ruin the anointing on your life she'll ruin your ministry there were so many things attached to this woman that were going to lead to the demise of my calling as the next in line and all she had to do at that time in my mind was just babble in tongues how hard can that be can you just give me something so last ditch effort we're at this conference

I'm preaching a youth conference in Kelowna British Columbia the interior of BC and we're up there preaching at a church the couple that were the co -pastors of this church were my old our old children's ministry pastors at the church my dad pastored and they invited me to do a youth conference

I was beginning to preach a lot more in that time and so we go and the conference is going great

I'm just preaching good stuff normal stuff like you'd probably let me have told it to the youth group here not crazy heresy the whole thing ends they had me preach

Sunday I preach a normal message and at the end the the wife says to me during the closing song

I want you to end this by getting them all baptized in the

Holy Spirit I said okay um I like what do you mean like altar call for salvation and she goes no you know what

I mean Kosti they give them tongues I'm like uh oh so because I was starting to have the doubts because Christine wasn't getting it and I know her and I'm like yeah something's up maybe

I don't I don't know what but something's up and so I get up there and they line up all of the youth all of them and I begin to pray for them and I wouldn't put my hands on their head because there were things happening just inside of my heart

I was getting hesitant I was getting real insecure with the way that we had done ministry I couldn't put my finger on it but I was going

I don't want to do that so I would put my hands on their shoulders and I was praying for them like this I'd say oh

Lord fill them with your spirit bless them in their life help them to follow you in Jesus name amen and I was praying

I was just praying for normal people normal ways and she had had enough and the woman pastor uh grabs the microphone so I do all

I pray and I'm like love you guys God bless you and I walk up she grabs the microphone and goes I want every hand raised and I want every eye closed you young people you're about to get the baptism fire of the

Holy Spirit going to come upon you thank you brother hand and I'm just like oh alright here she goes and she starts doing the job

I I didn't do obviously and Christine's standing there I'll never forget it she puts her hands in the air and she's standing there just silent and her little like lips begin to move and I don't know what she was saying but it was like the like typically stuff whatever and I remember looking over and I started to cry started to tear up and I thought okay she's getting it like crazy woman pastor who you know took the mic maybe she's right now she's getting it all right the joke's on me obviously

I'm being dry spiritually I'm not doing what I should do and I look over and so the whole thing ends we leave they give us hugs everything's cordial we get in the car and I said so what's up and she just starts crying

Christine's crying and we're driving back to BC it's just a few hours and or back to Vancouver and she says just that wasn't it

I'm like you got like you got I saw you you're moving your your lips you're doing like you feel like it was coming like we're there and she's just bawling she's like no like that what

I was just saying like nothing literally nothing and I was like man she's like this is not going to work like we're pretty much going through the you're you know we're engaged you're

I can't marry you like you can't get tongues we've tried everything even Uncle Benny Uncle Benny's Benny Hinn has prayed for you like hands on your head which now

I'm more thankful that she didn't catch anything but you get it in that regard my dad has prayed for her everybody's prophesied for her and against her and now we're at this little service where apparently you're going to get tongues and you know so pretty dejected we end up deciding we should check the

Bible and I know that sounds real just funny right it's like yeah think but we had not thought we should check the teaching that we're hearing against the

Bible and so I I don't know how we got there I don't know if it was Google or what but we ended up in 1

Corinthians 12 30 where Paul is clearly I don't care if you're a prosperity gospel person or you're you're just brand new it's obvious through just basic grammar that he's being rhetorical he says not all have gifts of healing not all speak in tongues do they do they do they it's all rhetorical the answer is no he's talking about how there's different gifts that people operate in the body and not all will do these things and I remember looking and just thinking wow like we're off the hook you're off the like I think we could we can get married like we can do this and she's crying and I'm crying

I'm like okay like we're alright and there were multiple beliefs at that time this is the summer right before our wedding we got married

October 12 2012 and this conference happened that summer and for a few months those cracks in the dam start to get get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and pretty soon

I start thinking I gotta get out of here a buddy of mine reaches out

I'm in the basement in the Canada house and he's like hey how's it going man you big world changer he's from California he's part of a church plant he wasn't in the same vein as us theologically he was a friend that was in sort of the seeker movement and we had ties there

Christine had gone to that their little church plant was just starting I had been to a couple of services and then we were gonna move to Canada anyway and I was over there already and then she moved over there and was living in a wing of our house because in Middle Eastern families one of the future in -laws will move in if in my case it's the wife she moves in to her own wing my mother teaches her how to cook she learns how to clean she learns my favorite meals

I know it sounds a little chauvinistic but it's just how it works in that culture not a bad idea in today's world but things are getting more traditional and feminism is on the rise so you know it might be helpful for some ladies to learn how to be tight as two but probably just as helpful for some young men to figure it out too and learn how to be men and so Christine's living in the home in that side of the house and all of us like one big happy Greek family about to get married and conflict begins to erupt so my friend calls me and I said it's going terrible he's like what's up like she can't get tongues but I'm pretty sure she's not obligated to speak in it the family's not sold on her but the wedding's in like two months she feels spiritually abused she's stuck

I just found her like a week ago in the basement hyperventilating she had asthma and had a crazy breathing attack and was like slipping unconscious and having a hard time and all this stuff was happening and there was some nebulizer

I had to get and like put this thing this little thing that helped her breathe and she's going through a lot of these things under the weight of spiritual abuse and he said man

I think it's time for you to stop trying to be your dad's hero and please your family and start being your wife's hero she's your first ministry and you're about to get married and I remember hearing those words and they hit me like a like a haymaker that she would that she was my first ministry

I was like what in the world in my thought pattern and the way I was trained is ministry you're married to the ministry ministry is number one and the family everything bows to that because that's the anointing of God on your life and you act like a monarchical king in the lineage of Israel where you do what you want and everybody bows and I remember thinking like what in the world am

I going to do and so I asked him and he said you got to take her on a date and you got to tell her you're done I was like what you're crazy and he goes yeah you take her on a date you tell her you're done you're not going to put her through this anymore you're going to man up love her like Christ and ask her where she wants to move like what no this is a bad idea this is we're going to be on our own we're going to like he said no ask her and what opportunities do you have right now

I said well I got a job offer in Dallas to get involved with some sports training and stuff like that I could do that my brother -in -law started a church in Florida I could go work for them he offered us to kind of get out of here a little bit connected to family but it's away from here and that's it and he said well

I'll give you a third option both of those options you'll have money you'll be fine but a third option is you come here you join the church plant you be our youth guy and we can only pay a few hundred bucks a month so you're going to have to go get a job figure that out but at least you'll be in a stable place and you'll be away from all of that and you can just see what the

Lord has from there so I took her on a date to the Beecher Street Cafe in Crescent Beach White Rock Canada and I told her all this and she's just bawling

I mean people in the restaurant probably thought I was breaking up with her like she was just bawling and I said where do you want to go and she said

I don't want to be anywhere near your family no offense I said no problem she said I'm not going to Florida so don't be there and Dallas would be great be a good life it'd be you know probably have a home and get to kind of be a family sooner but you won't be in ministry and I really think you're called to be in ministry

I think that calling is on your life and whatever that means I think you should be in a church setting of some sort and California will be hard we're going to be broke we're going to have nothing we're away from everything and everyone we have no lifelines but I think that'll be a healthy place for us that's where I want to go

I said okay so so we told my parents and there was a massive blow up and she was the black sheep and they said you did this to him you've pulled him from the family we were cut off completely they said that's it you're done and that was it and so we packed up our cars she stole the

RS and we drove to California and joined this church plant

I called an old friend from the baseball world and got a job basically making 10 bucks an hour throwing batting practice to 12 year olds for a little while and then started getting involved in training athletically and doing different things for athletes and so I had a stable job

I was the youth pastor technically at this church plant and that's where we kind of land the plane now with the pastor so it was the coach the girl the pastor and I would say right there 20 this is 2012 within 6 months of that moment moving there

I get there and my boss is a woman pastor the church is a seeker driven church plant and Rick Warren's like our hero he had coached a little bit of the church plant and our pastor at the time his name was

Tony Wood Anthony some people know him as now was going through his own little process as I was kind of just enjoying not being in insanity and I remember him coming in one day to the office and saying hey we're going to do this thing he's like what it's called expository preaching he's like what he said yeah

I've been I've been kind of going back to my roots he's like what roots he's like well dad you know graduated from DTS and you know my grandfather was a pastor up in Washington State and you know he's good pre -mill dispy guy and literal historical grammatical hermeneutics and I'm like what are you talking about he's like and I I've been in this kind of mega church game for a while and it's just I'm sick of the rat race to be honest sick of trying to convince people to come to church every week because the new thing

I'm sick of the hype I just I want to do this can't be it I just want to do church biblically like you know

I'm like okay I don't sure I'm enjoying this it's not I can't whatever

I was in I can't put my finger on all of it but whatever that thing that makes people go oh you're a hymn that thing isn't here and at the same time we had like Christine Kane had come to preach for us and we had done all these things that just dabbled in that world and Tony was very popular in the mega church world and was preaching a little bit with David Furtick and Louie Giglio and some different guys on the circuit and so for him to be exhausted by this was really weird and so he goes we're going to go through the gospel of John he's like okay like what's the hook like what's the he's like no it's just going to be called

John like got it he said the subtitle will be glory came down I'm like okay yeah that sounds that seems that's kind of cool it's got a little glory came down like glory clouds glory like all right he's like yeah we just we're going to preach through it like verse by verse

I was like okay and I remember we got to John 5 and nothing had really changed nothing externally we get to John 5 and sorry right around this time actually just before I get to preach out of John 5 there do there was something he had gone up there one

Sunday like a crazy man and he had said you're going to see something different today the church was growing a few hundred people at a church plant and it was growing he said it's just going to be

Haley up here with a guitar and she's going to sing some hymns and if you don't like it go find another church so we still had like women in leadership my boss was a woman pastor like incremental changes here people but things were happening and he said we're not paying musicians anymore and if you're not saved you're not playing in the band because we were hiring like boy band musicians and people we're playing the lights out of the place so we're growing fast and so there was a bit of an exodus and he said she's going to sing some hymns and then

I'm going to preach and that's the service today and there were some people that were like what we're going to Saddleback we're like go to Saddleback you know that kind of thing and so and at the time we're literally like three four miles from Saddleback so that is a reality and so that had happened and we felt like we were still being edgy like we were the rebels of the seeker movement kind of like we're going to just be more biblical and preach through books of the bible and in you know more than three weeks like I saw one guy not long ago he's like we're going through the book of Galatians like awesome he's like so for the next three weeks we're just going to cover it it's like cool got it three sermons on Galatians like and you know some of us come from like we're on our 98th sermon in the book of Jude and you're like that's called a word study you know just look at the word the this morning just the the definite article you're like okay all right we're in deep you know and so we just thought we were edgy because we were going through a book of the bible like that's it and I'm up preaching

I get it's my turn and Tony throws me a commentary and he says hey my dad's been dropping off books again

I'm like sweet and his dad this is backstory his dad had thousands of books in his library but he refused to give a single one of them to Tony because he was doing crazy you know

Stephen Furtick type of ministry and he said you can't give him none of my books you probably don't even read books unless they're by some crazy guy on YouTube and he said how to grow your church in some pagan way well his dad starts dropping off books so whatever was happening which of course we know now behind the scenes

Tony was going through this whole conversion thing where he was just going to be a different pastor it felt like he was already saved but was being sanctified and growing he starts giving me books and so he gives me a commentary and goes hey for your

John 5 sermon the healing at the pool of Bethesda this will help keep the train on the tracks and so I look down and real story like he was just quick in the office he would like this will help you keep the train on the tracks commentary good stuff look it up follow it do your study first but you know that will be helpful and I look and it's a burgundy like commentary by John MacArthur I'm like whatever and I don't even think much about John MacArthur at the time it doesn't click that like he's the guy like if you had

Batman and the joker my uncle MacArthur that's all going on so I just look

I'm like whatever and I remembered I'm going through the study and at the time I had been taught observation interpretation correlation application

I've been taught basics at this point and I was much

MacArthur at the time it was italicized so obviously it's put in there for emphasis and immediately meaning the speed and the quickness of the story and the quickness of the narrative and I didn't have a quick story

I just had a quick story and I didn't a quick story and told me

I could then John records something very interesting he says for the man did not know who

Jesus was and he said slipped away and the word that he uses there for no this

Greek word I do which means basically perceived the man didn't even have any idea who

Jesus was he didn't perceive that he was the Son of God that he was the Savior and it so now

I'm looking thinking okay we got immediate healing of one guy of a multitude who is a whiner and a complainer and then he doesn't even know who

Jesus is so I'm going how do you have enough faith to get healed how did he move like okay so commentary time we're gonna figure this out and so I open up the commentary and MacArthur just teased off in that section and he basically says that unlike many alleged modern healings

Jesus's healings were complete and instantaneous with or without faith and he goes on to say one of the cruelest lies of contemporary faith healers is that the people they fail to heal are guilty of sinful unbelief a lack of faith or negative confession and MacArthur says this man is a prime example of Jesus healing in a sovereign way and that word sovereign just reverberates in my mind never forget it and I think back to coach

Hefner and sovereignty and God doing what he wants when he wants how he wants to who he wants going what in the world and MacArthur unpacks there the cruelest lie of faith healers and I remember thinking like that's exactly what

I always believe that's what we taught that's what I took hook line and sinker like we're we're this like whoever this guy this is true this is absolutely right and so I end up preaching it that Sunday and the date of that particular week it was

April 30th 2012 so now over 10 years ago and or sorry

April 2013 and so 10 years ago and I remember preaching it that Sunday just like like a fire hose more like a shotgun spray

I was everywhere I was yelling about everything I'm glad I didn't record it it it didn't it didn't make the halls of history of the church and the

YouTube channel there but I went off and the reason

I did is because at that moment in study I begin to weep just cry uncontrollably it was as though for years the

Lord had been priming the pump there were cracks in the dam but the whole thing just burst and I was weeping it was that moment that particular afternoon

I repented of my sin I told the Lord I'm sorry for believing that for teaching it I told him

I want to preach the true gospel I want to be a pastor I want to serve him faithfully I'll do whatever he wants me to do

I'll never do that again I don't want to be part of it all of that and you can obviously know now because hindsight's 2020 that Jesus is sheep know his voice you're always a sheep remember

Justin told me this years later yes you you weren't a goat that turned into a sheep you were a sheep that was drawn and so for years prior you know was there were the things happening to you

I was like totally like doubts questions at one point I preached a string of sermons at my dad's church when

I was starting to preach a lot of this church on the on Job I'll never forget like the weirdest

I still have them they're on my computer they're not very good but they're I'm preaching Job's story to at my dad's church about he suffered and if you're a believer you're gonna suffer there were weird things

I was starting to say and I would study they weren't very good studies but I would stay up late and I was googling everything and I was looking at you know blue letter

Bible and random things I'm like I'm pretty sure there's people who say stuff about these things that are helpful

I didn't know like I should get commentaries and all that but there were things happening already and I wanted to know more and I wanted to serve the

Lord but didn't know how or where and I remember going into Tony's office kick the door in basically and said like all of it was lies it was lies and I'm gonna tell everyone about this and they need to be taken down and they're liars they're cheating people this whole thing makes sense like they're literally abusing people this can't go on and I'm like I'm gonna this and I'm gonna that and he's like sit down I'm like all right so I sit down and he said you know what what do you want to be and I said

I want to be a pastor and he said what does a pastor do I'm like preach the word shepherd the flock like serve the church he's like yeah so you need to do that that's where it all starts if you want to be a pastor and then if God since he's sovereign now right

I'm like yep if he decides that you're gonna be helpful on these issues or you will speak about these issues then he'll decide when and how but you just focus on being faithful okay like all right so basically it was like you're gonna sit down you're gonna shut your mouth and you go back to your office and do your job within weeks

I was stripped of my title I was not the students pastor I was a PIT pastor in training as I got pledged at a fraternity you know it's like there's a few of us that got stripped of everything and I was thankful I still got a paycheck to do some ministry but it was small tasks that the elders would ask me to do and I ended up getting into biblical counseling like not being one but getting biblical counsel there was intentional discipleship

Tony started to give me books and one of them was expository preaching by John MacArthur and I was like this is like a thing like they do this there's like chapters on it he's like yes this is what

I've been looking through this is what happened another staff meeting Lindsay is her name she walked in tears in her eyes and said to all of us with Pastor Tony of course with her gentlemen

I'm not a pastor I was never a pastor there is no such thing as a woman pastor and I'm here now to be the pastoral assistant

I'll be serving and administrating here in the office and helping and that is my role and to this day they're at this they're at the church and her husband's a deacon dear friends of ours and the church went through a few name changes and at one point

Tony came in my office he's like we're gonna be a Bible Church it's like okay and he's like we need a name like we're gonna change the name we're gonna go you know

Bible churches are I'm like no he's like there are these churches they're like Bible churches and like all right he's like there's this organization called the

IFC a and like MacArthur was in it and Alex Montoya there's all these guys I met them all they're gonna come do seminars and start training our men like okay they're from the masters okay and he said so what do you want to be what do you think and our church at the time went from it was called moment church which was like the seeker name they picked in the weird little like marketing brainstorm to church at the mission which we were at a rescue mission and we were super ecumenical at that time so he's like we're gonna go to rescue missions we were just at the rescue mission because the guy gave it to us for free and like a typical seeker church we're like we're gonna turn this into a marketing campaign so we're like where would

Jesus do church at a rescue mission we're the real church and so we became church at the mission and then that he's like hey

I've been reading this book on ecclesiology the doctrine of the church I'm like yeah he's like turns out the church isn't just for the poor people at the rescue mission it's for the rich the poor everyone in between so we can't be church at the mission anymore we can't be ecumenical

I'm like what's ecumenical he's like don't worry about it we can't do this we have to be a church for oh all right and it's like what should we call it

I'm like I don't know just how about mission just keep mission in there because the mission of God but like mission

Bible just Bible church sounds good you keep saying that he's like done so he runs back buys the domain and mission

Bible org if you look it up that's the church they're doing great and I just preached there last week or two weeks ago and so all that happens behind the scenes

I had sent a thank -you email to GTY their info because I had started to watch their stuff and my wife

Christine I was not like bought into a few things my wife Christine was taking the whole thing hook line and sinker so we're a life way and she wants a pink

John MacArthur study Bible and I'm like no it's like why she had a little coupon and I was like no no this guy so he was helpful like the commentary all this stuff is good okay a lot of good things that well let's not go too far he doesn't believe in the

Holy Spirit and doesn't believe that people can get healed like there's a whole section in that Bible no way she's like I really want this

Bible my wife's like short like little five foot two she's small but mighty I call her and she's like I'm getting this

Bible like little you know foot stomp like in life way you can't have a fight in life way we're Christians and so it was before all of the stuff now you everybody apparently had a fight in life way but had a fight with life way so that's all happening and I'm like fine but when we get home

I'm gonna highlight the sections in 1st Corinthians 12 and 13 and 14 where he's just he's the cessationist thing where they don't believe in the

Holy Spirit she's like you do whatever you want I'm like I'm gonna do that so our kids aren't jaded by this man in those areas but the rest of it's fine and so I no joke like true story within days

I'm reading the Pink MacArthur study Bible daily true story and so I at that point it was all

I could do to just send I poured my entire heart out I wrote one of those essays that you just send in and you don't care if anyone reads it you're just like I gotta get this off my chest and so I sent that in the info at GTY and this guy named

Travis Allen ends up reaching out to me he was the managing director at the time and he invited me to lunch and him and another guy named

Jay flowers invited me to a Chinese restaurant and they begin to just kick the tires hard and I had permission to speak freely so I did and they would correct me and then quantify what happened so I would say things and they

Travis would go well so the Bible says this this this this this so I know you probably felt that way but here's actually what was happening inside your heart and your mind according to what the

Bible says and I was like man you guys all do that this is great like everything's biblical what so I could just say anything

I'm good he's like yeah you just say things how they are and then you know we'll help you out okay like it was the first time

I'd ever had men talk like that I said I want to know my Bible like that and I remember Travis saying so have you been biblically baptized since your true conversion and I was like oh no

I haven't but Wow should I he's like well yeah your first baptism was definitely a false one and you weren't really a

Christian it's like that's true but then everyone at the church will know he's like yep it's kind of the point got it so I got baptized and they sent me a ton of books and one of the books was master's plan for the church they sent two copies one for Tony one for me and a ton of other books and then these boxes showed up one day and Travis said hey care package coming and it was the rest of the commentaries because I obviously had one from the

Gospel of John there's two and then I had the rest of them and strange fire was in there I was like what's this and he had said hey before getting into too many of those other books you should watch strange fire there's

DVDs and a book I was like okay and I turned it on and spent days just having a whole crisis of the will and stayed in our room

Christine at that time was so kind she's in the living room night after night I was in our master bedroom and I don't know why oh yeah she wanted to like enjoy dinner and like relax and I was in there like are you kidding me she's like I just you do you like go through whatever you're going through and then tell me on the other side where we're going because I have no

I do not have that baggage but you're my husband so and then that was where this guy you know who's sitting down when he was preaching

I didn't know why at the time but he has the session called the devilish puppet something of the of the word of faith movement or something and I'm like who is this guy there's

PowerPoint slides and everything else and so that's how I got exposed to Justin Peters and all of that you know there's a million details since I ended up going to seminary and all of those things but the biggest breakthrough was simple it was

God's Word and it was God's Word through faithful people who just told me the truth and then loved me enough to walk with me be kind to me be gracious in the midst of it but absolutely unwavering in the truth and so if there's anything you take away it's that you and I ought to leave it all in the field with people walk with them keep the door open for them but keep speaking the truth to them in the midst of that there is a small group that you should keep far away from you there's a small group that you you want nothing to do with and Jude speaks to that we'll talk about that in one of the sessions but for the most part you and I are on planet earth as plan a the

Lord if he had no more plans to save people he just pull us out of here right now but he's left the church here to be a beacon and to be a witness and so I'm thankful for people who did that for me and you know it took a little too long on this session but thanks for for listening thanks for your faithfulness and thanks for indirectly somehow maybe your support of ministries like grace to you and others and supporting

Justin as a missionary leads to souls like mine being saved and sanctified and the

Lord using that then we get to be in ministry and that cycle continues and one day you go to heaven you die and you toss your crowns back at his feet and say it was all for you anyway it was a privilege to be used by the king let me pray for us and then we'll we'll shift to whatever 10 -minute break father thank you for saving all of us what do we have that we haven't received as Paul also says who is adequate for these things the answer is obvious no one and so thank you that you'd let us be your children and you'd allow us to be useful during our time here on earth continue to edify and strengthen and encourage and affirm my brothers and my sisters here as we celebrate your word your goodness to us your kindness and the glory of the gospel by using wisdom as well and discernment so we can reach others in Jesus name amen all right 10 -minute break thank you all right if you come in and find your seat again we will get started with the second session all right so this

Q &A is a little bit more of a get to know the guest speaker but Kosti did that in the first session there he gave you a lot of details so some of this is going to be some follow -up questions to what he just covered in that session and some of it some stuff that you didn't even touch on would you first question would you say that you were saved there at your study desk reading

John 5 would you say that was your conversion experience there or were you saved at some other point or can you even pinpoint the time of your genuine salvation good question so for me

I I used that particular moment as my conversion and the reason for that is because I actually repented of my sin and what

I believed and then as well made a wholehearted commitment to serve the

Lord preach the true gospel learn grow study all that so I in a real way

I was my eyes were fully opened and I was very determined interesting for you to bring that up it's a great question because Justin I've often talked with Justin Peters Tony as well about it and Tony calls it my grace awakening moment he's like I the way you because I had preached before at the church and was doing student ministry stuff and even wanted and wanting to get away from the family and all of that he he has said before I think you were saved sometime before we won't know until glory but at some point your heart was regenerate you your mind had changed you wanted nothing you just hadn't been taught yet so the moment you started getting tools in front of you you were like this is what

I want I'm going all out if that's the case then you're talking about late summer the year you got married when you're making that decision and having that crisis yeah probably probably right in there is what he would say and then

Justin similar kind of said brother I he said it one time like with his his pit word pictures is that brother you know like a sheep you just you're sitting there grazing and focus on yourself and then you kind of pick your head up my you know and then you're just back grazing again but you know and then that moment comes where you fully aware and you just you pick your happy you hear the master's voice through his word and that that's it you're following him forever and like all that and so he's like obviously something was happening to you there to even want that and I'm like alright so but for me personally the easiest way to describe it is through the series of events yeah and then that moment late

April 2013 because at that point I never looked back again with confusion or or even doubts

I had doubts if I wanted to be in ministry mainly because I felt like I wasn't qualified or I felt like I could never be like other guys that were faithful and I was thinking that they you know

I'm it's too messy my my storyline is too too messed up yet did you have a fake conversion experience when you were younger six or seven you asked

Jesus into your heart yeah probably probably my baptism at 12 just getting baptized and making my big profession of faith but I would have said

I was always saved I grew up I was born saved is what I would say when someone's like how long you been saved or when did you get saved

I got born saved yeah so did you have as a hymn did you have exposure early exposure to non -prosperity

Christianity like teachings did you ever hear John MacArthur preach Alistair Begg preach

R .C. Sproul preach ever before your conversion no the first thing

I ever the first church I ever heard anything preached that I could say that guy at that time would have been

Matt Chandler sermon at the village church in 2008

I guess seven yeah cuz oh seven oh eight oh eight oh nine my junior senior at DBU I had a friend who invited me to the village church and this guy gets up there and just talks about the

Bible for 45 minutes I'm like whatever okay like that was church okay cool and it was the village so looking back

I'm like hey and it was sort of in a good era from Chandler it was just bringing it and they're at a grocery store or something converted grocery store and then

I went back to Gateway it was like I'm going back cuz I like you know I want to hear Carrie Jobe every Sunday and Robert Morris preach yeah that was kind of a jam those of you who don't know

Matt Chandler is something of a continuationist which means he believes in the continuation of the certain spiritual gifts like prophecy he wrote the foreword for Sam Storm's book practicing the power where he argues that you should have modern -day prophets in the church but theologically in terms of salvation and soteriology

Matt Chandler's where we would be at in terms of believing the reformed doctrines of the faith believing sovereign election etc it's just it's kind of that odd combination of continuationist as well as more soteriologically reformed yeah and on a

Sunday he was just he would get up he was just getting up there and preaching the Bible it's kind of like when Piper remember the old like John Piper versus John MacArthur continuationist versus cessationist thing and one of the practical things was always

I was always curious about this and thought yeah you know I know Piper's a continuationist but they all just sing hymns have brass bands preach the

Bible and then go disciple people like where's the tongues in the pride if you got it why aren't you doing it this looks like a

Baptist Church and so channel it was similar back then they just preach the Bible and went on with it and I that was the first exposure the other one was a woman in my

I didn't there's so many details some of these are in the book a lot a lot of them are all of them are but for sake of time

I couldn't keep going the first session but a woman came up to me at my dad's church right before we moved and slipped me a book and said here this you should read this and it was a book called

Church Awakening by Chuck Swindoll and in that book like Swindoll is pretty he's pretty orthodox pretty clear of course and he would be a cessationist very conservative in his approaches to things and in that book he's very gracious he's very soft and gentle with things but he says things about like certain teachers who do this and that and I remember reading that thing like ooh like this book is probably banned

I can't no one can know I have it and I still have it my bookshelf to this day but that was another one that I thought people just slipping me things that put cracks in the dam how close are you to your uncle

Benny now back then let's start very very close yeah I was like the favored nephew and super tight and now

I know he won't talk to me not at all no mom and dad mom and dad yeah mom and dad want to move to Arizona and be close to our church and be close to me and be around my dad and mom have moved away from pretty much all of the like they don't travel to Uncle Benny they don't go near my mom it's really clear there's some real even the conversations about them wanting to be out in Arizona more and thinking about being more to where we are has to do with all sorts of things similar in the same vein along theology

I want to get away from the influence life yeah and it was started years ago when we used to talk about tongues and prophecy and different things she was watching what we were going through and we had a little couple years where we were really estranged because true story

I and this is part of my personality it sometimes works against me and so there's things even in the book about reaching others that I tell people to do this a certain way because of my failures not because I'm super wise but I brought my parents to California in our little dingy apartment sitting on our secondhand furniture and pulled out my at that point no longer pink my own

MacArthur study Bible true story and I opened up to first Timothy chapter 3 and I read to my father verses 1 to 7 and said you are not qualified to be in ministry you are a wolf and uncle

Benny's a wolf and you need to step down repent and before you think there's no hope

I have the solution really I said yes

I have very dear friends and they would love to help you if you would just repent and and learn and grow humble yourselves they will help you

John MacArthur Justin Peters like these guys you just need to know the guys I know I'm telling you they teach the Bible they'll help you they don't want to they don't want to harm you they want to help but you need to step down you're wolves you need to repent and of course that was met with like not oh you don't say my mom was in that conversation so that got me it wasn't like I'll see you later from Canada go to California now you know you ruined everything

Christine but alright let's see you at Thanksgiving I went all the way with it like I believed what the

Bible said I read everything and took it dead serious still do black and white there it is okay so I should do this so I would call

I went after every family member I called them when they started a couple of my sisters moved up to Bethel my brother -in -law they were serving up in Reading and then they went to Sacramento with Jesus culture and I called them and I literally took the

Bible seriously went after all of it and that got me cut off pretty good to where no one would talk to me and then over the years you know for parents they don't stay away from gang kids so I was like all right well but I wouldn't let them see the grandkids for a period of time as well and one of my conditions with my dad was maybe it seems insensitive or harsh but remember there's a difference between family caught up in following like Kenneth Copeland versus when your your parent or your loved one is an actual false teacher

Jude says that you should have mercy on them with fear hating even the garment stained by the flesh you want to keep some healthy distance you don't like hey come on over who knows what they're gonna say or like will you babysit my kids for a date night and they're like teaching them about tongues no way so with that I I definitely put distance as well and said you cannot you're not coming to my front door as long as you're teaching heresy and traveling with him so that was my dad with uncle

Benny so there was that level and then you know that's again we're talking anywhere from eight to ten years ago and then slowly but surely throughout the different eras of time when the book came out

I called my parents said a lot of finding deception yes and then that one that one got us cut off fully to where Chris Valiton who is a false teacher false prophet literally from Bethel was my sister's my youngest sister's mentor and they weren't allowed to talk to me or else they would have curses cancer like all the you know in calamity the big three

C's if you go near someone it's like Scientology like with a suppressive person so that that was defining deception that did not help that one my uncle ended up calling my dad and saying like what tell your son to knock it off like enough is enough and then the

Christianity Today article there was other things that kind of started popping up by the time we got to God greeting the prosperity gospel

I had called my parent I told them I was coming out with a book on it I told them I would be respectful but I would not hold back and it was around that time that we actually started having more conversations so my dad got away from traveling without he quit stopped traveling local

Benny's your dad read either of those books he's read the God greed my parents read God greed and that was painful yeah you tell some honest honest stories in that how many of you read the book by the way okay two or three you tell some honest stories about your family your upbringing and the environment what that was like and reading that which

I just finished at this last week I thought did your family read that did your uncle Benny read that did they approve what you were writing in there because though you were straightforward and honest you were very gracious yeah there so I don't know if my uncle read it or not

I have no idea do you think you read defining deception so that okay that one yes more family members dabbled in that one because it was the first one and that was

Tony had come to me and said hey I'm tired of the Bethel stuff because one of who's a guy who has come back from a conference he went to our church he's like hey guys he said he could be the apostle of our church and Tony's like yeah not here you're not and keep in mind like they were talking this is like 2015 2016 so clearly we're we're past the you know the era that we were moment to church we were like masters plan for the church all that so he's like we're like where'd you learn that he's like I just got back from reading went to a

Bethel conference like oh no and he's like you know all this stuff I'm like oh yeah my sisters are up there he's like oh here we go so we were dealing with all of it in -house then he said

I'm gonna write a book you want to write it with me you don't have to if you do this though you're getting in way more trouble than I ever will because this would be a more public stand and I'm like let's go like let's ride so we did and that one got read passed around the family and they were like how dare he and I went after all their heroes yeah with the

Hall of Generals chapter so I went after the movement in that one more than a testimony and that was my plan

I was like I don't want a testimony book talking about myself I'd rather go after the theology then the book after because too many people were like what in the world you're a hymn how does that work

I was like all right I'm gonna put it in a book and then please don't make me talk about it anymore except tonight obviously I had to yeah that's good so the

God greed and the prosperity gospel book then you have you had conversations with your parents about that yes so my parents are further away from where they were ever completely my dad still has some friends or will end up in a photo with someone or like somewhere and I'm kind of like these people are weirdos like why are you why are you even with them my mom a little more blunt and so each time

I'm with them we have strong conversations good conversations healthy I'm honorable and respectful but they've been to our church they've sat in our church our people are kind to them and I've pre

I didn't even plan this they were there for my Ephesians to we're going through the book of Ephesians you know 90 sermons later and I'm at I did not plan they were in town

I said hey you guys gonna come to church always invite them and they're like yeah we will come tomorrow I said oh great and they stay in a hotel somewhere locally and I said great and I didn't even realize it till I was halfway through the sermon that I was in Ephesians 220 so I had this whole section on Apostles and Prophets and the foundation and Christ the cornerstone

I just let it fly and after that I was like hey I'm sorry I didn't mean to knock like you're nothing against you that's the verse we're in and they were like no it's great my dad's like I'm so proud of you it's good

I love it he's like I listen to your stuff I follow and I keep up right look you we say we believe more of what you say than you ever would have thought

I said all right does your uncle Benny and your dad still talk a little bit there was one conversation I don't know

I mean you guys can record this it's fine but we are this live stream yeah hello say hi to uncle

Benny hi one conversation that I had was after the last repentance and I am very eager to be as loud or louder if he were to truly repent for his true repentance than I've ever been over that the then his false stuff and that last one was where he's like the

Holy Spirit sick and tired of it like he's really had enough and I know we can be cheeky me like oh really like now the sovereign

Spirit of God has had enough Wow I'm glad he's had enough now apparently he hadn't had enough for the 40 years you've been doing this but all jokes aside

I sent text called like wanted to talk to him I was like and I I called you didn't pick up so I sent him this big text message and I said if you're for real

I will be at your front door and I will be louder for your true repentance than I've ever been against your false teaching

I love you like just bleeding heart nothing it's like I asked my mom a day or two later it's like hey like are we like are we in like tell me when

I get on a plane like let's go and my dad said in Arabic Shuaish way Shuaish way means like you take it easy

I was like all right and I said what's going on and the sentiment from him was that you know he's scared to meet the

Lord was like the verbatim quote and I said well yeah it would be to like just repent literally turn come on just go the other way and what we've seen over the course of the last what five years maybe where there's been multiple little pop -up repentances is a fear of I think what he knows to be a coming judgment if he doesn't repent but also

I think a second Corinthians 7 worldly sorrow a man I I really have made some mistakes man

I've really got quite the legacy here and what you're having now is some in that camp fight for his legacy so there's a book that just came out by a guy named

Kent Maddox anybody heard of him before Kent Maddox so Kent Maddox was like one of my uncle's key guys he wrote a book it just came out don't buy it it'll only help his his ranking on Amazon but it's

Benny Hinn and the impact he's had on my life or something like that and now it's starting where these guys say

I know there's so many out there who criticize and some who are even close to him you're like yeah I know hi me I get it but you know but this man the true anointing and when he and he's never fought back because that's what a real man of God does and so you have this odd because I don't fight back

I'm noble and that has been the cadence it's a fear of the end a fight for the legacy never repentance and even behind closed doors when

I'll hear family say like hey he's different you really that's the famous line that I get and I'm not jaded

I really want it to be true but my wife and I were just in a conversation two weeks ago with a family member and I don't want to name them because we're having good conversations but this individual said cost my whole family calls me cost short nickname cost uncle

Benny it's different so different it's like he's getting old he's thinking near the end like he's just he's different it's not the same

I think something's happened I'm just like awesome like when when are we meeting up like let's go let's do it and they're like no it's not like that and I'm like well then what is it and they're always like you're so intense with all this just lighten up with him like it's people change and sometimes they don't need to like come out and you know have a big thing about it and I'm like yeah they do when they've been teaching fall sleeper so these are the things that happen behind the scenes and maybe

I'm too black and white for some or it's too intense but in my mind if you've been a public figure teaching falsely and we're not talking like oh you had a little cult in your town so just go deal with them like best -selling books

Thomas Nelson publishing like worldwide global famous like you can't you don't just go away to he's living in Florida now you don't just go like in your little retirement home on the beach and like lay low and then die and just do

Facebook lives and some people are paying your bills when Paul got saved total 180

Zacchaeus went crazy in repent it so it's a lot more like Judas then

Peter and these others one other question about your family to move on from that you mentioned your sisters how many siblings do you have two two sisters older younger one older one younger and have you had conversations with them where are they at in observing you and where you're at yeah we just had a lunch in Dallas when

I was there and they were so they have been in Redding which with Bethel Sacramento with Jesus culture

Charlotte with Furtick not kidding they were living they were in Fort Worth with Todd white my sister was his worship pastor and my brother -in -law was an executive pastor and then now and then they were at Mercy culture which is a church in Fort Worth after they had a split with Todd and now they are moving to Florida where my uncle and they're gonna do some stuff with Jesus image for a little while and I'm like guys so they haven't even started to come out of that movement then well this is where it gets weird and complicated in our conversations one of my sisters said like hey we've they unblocked me on it they all unblocked me on Instagram and social media

I was like sweet like I'm I'm out of jail and and I said hey just so you guys know like we're you know sometimes

I say things but like it's just truth so I love you guys and and one of my siblings said oh yeah there there's so much that you say and that we watch and listen to you we agree with you way more than you'd ever think truly and like we've been listening to Ali Beth Stuckey now and we've been listening to this and I'm like okay so there is healthy conversation after that lunch but they had left

Todd White's ministry and so there but they're still floating and so it's good heart training that's what we call it in our home

Christine and I privately like this is great heart training stay soft stay loving stay hopeful because love hopes bears leaves endures all days but yes sometimes it is like okay we're on our like 13th false teacher are you done yet like yeah come on guys like it's not you don't need to like go to grace community and and you know it but just why don't you just get out of all that but there's so much jadedness from that TBN world that unless the

God of the universe puts their feet on solid ground and plugs them in somewhere there's solid teaching they float like almost like a lot of people from the

Hillsong stuff you know the Hillsong documentary and all that stuff that's come out you have all these people that are just spinning and they've either left what they thought was the faith but really all they've left is an organization yeah a machine and so they were never really saved they were never really blood -bought in it you know with Christ really they just got spit out by something another jaded so that's what

I think a lot of my family members have experienced and it's tough to watch but we keep praying and keep encouraging but yeah there's some weird stuff and interestingly enough on the way home from that trip

I was in the airport and I ran into Todd Todd White and I had my son with me and I had him you get your leg

Lincoln yeah I did pull my shoe off but we had a real we had a real honest conversation right there in a little

Hudson news store I was just trying to get a bottle of water and Titus my son stood like four feet away because I'm not like prosperity gospel superstitious anymore but I you know he needs to stand like four or five feet away so he stood over by the way just my

I didn't want him to hear everything and and I had a real if I if I had one opportunity that's the last time

I ever get to see Todd White in person and talk to him I I told him everything I could and would have and he cried and so cut love you and I was like I don't know if that's a good thing or just like a show but like it was it would have been it was something that like if someone was walking by and knew who we were and had a phone on them like it would be one of those like film that but that's how real it is for me like they're they're all lost and still alive yeah so like I got to tell him

I first time I heard of your salvation Justin texted me and he said hey brother you need to you need to listen to this voicemail

I'm about to send you you do that better than I do so he forwarded me the voice message that you left him on his phone yeah his ministry phone and it was two or three minutes where you introduced who you were what your background was that you got soundly saved yeah and I immediately called

Justin and I said Justin what do you think of that and he said go no he said it sounds legit but I'm gonna call him up and I'm gonna ask him some serious questions because if this is true then

I want to hear this story oh that's funny yeah it was I never forget that day how much speaking and preaching moving off of family relations for a little bit how much speaking and preaching do you do outside your local church ministry yeah maybe like six to seven things a year

I'll do okay how many kids do you have five get names Titus ages to as well

Titus so I'll give you the ages based on the birthdays coming up in like two months so that way so Titus is nine in August Grace will be seven in August Timothy just turned five in May he's made a fourth so may the fourth be with you he's a little

Star Wars kid Ruth is three she just turned three on April 1st and Lydia Noel is seven months old yeah she's almost almost eight months old and your homeschooling kids public school private school they're currently in a local

Christian school because we somehow we don't make enough we somehow got in we don't

I don't make enough money to have to pay so we get free tuition on the pastor's discount and then

Arizona is really cool you already live in a great place so none of you need to move but if if we were in like Portland I would tell people hey

Arizona has this program where they give they have an ESA program they basically give parents $7 ,000 a year per kid for schooling you can homeschool or go to a private school so I have a really good friend he's the superintendent of a

Christian school it's like the last really awesome Chris I speak there regularly we have church members to our teachers so the kids there and then probably start homeschooling here in the next few years mainly because I I like them with us we've been having a blast and love the discipleship element and I would have brought one of them with me but on trips like this when it's all prosperity gospel and it's all this topic he's too literal and so it tends to he'll just he it's he's already heard it once and so I'm like you stay home he was he told me dad

I I sat through six hours of preaching the last one under pastor Charles to HB Charles pastor

Tom Pennington like I can handle it I'm like it's not that I think I'm just gonna go I got to say a lot of things that you've already heard and I don't need you don't need to sit there on this one he's like all right

I'm like okay so we're all in together when one of your children has an illness yeah

Timothy was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer at three months old and it's doing really great and that was an interesting family dynamic when we told them all and genuinely one of my it was my brother -in -law he asked so honest question

I said fire away he said is there not even one small part of you that thinks like it's because of stuff you've said it was like no he's like all right you're that confident

I said absolutely like beyond so he was born or diagnosed with that you said it was your first kid third

Timothy that happened shortly after you got saved a couple of years after you got saved right yet so Timothy was born in 2018 okay so Titus was 2014 grace 2016 they're all two years apart

Timothy 2018 so we had kind of crossed through like defining deception had come out in 2017 and I was regularly like it had been probably three what is that three or four years at that point of discipleship in seminary was a pastor again or the family life pastor at our church serving like our families and children ministry and started to be asked to speak on these issues a bit

Justin interviewed me stuff like that and so based on that when his the

God green prosperity gospel book wasn't out till 2019 right so when Timothy was born and he got diagnosed three months in so that summer they they were really fresh off of like a year ago you released defining deception and now this like you're or you wrote it and we've known it's coming like you're this is you're touching the

Lord's anointed so how does that play theologically with your family members particularly your mom and dad yeah in the midst of that you're got to be having conversations

I guess we're coming back to the family issue again but you gotta be having conversations with your mom and dad about look dad if you had the ability to heal or if uncle

Benny has the ability to heal he could he could heal like Jesus heals and just say the word he doesn't have to be present you can just say the word and command and it be done so the fact that I have a child that is ill and been diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and he's not being healed that's huge theological issue or at least a hurdle for them

I would think was it at all no and the reason is this I already knew their tactics so I went with a more truth -driven rather than a challenge approach and here's what

I mean by that there's a place for what you just said kovat was one of them like okay faith healers like here's your chance that would be in my opinion because it's so wide -scale you're just like hello and it almost is a time to in a sanctified way mock their mock their

Elijah on our caramel totally yep with this I went more of a hey you know he has been diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and we trust the

Lord and and in that moment one of my my dad in particular he kind of rose up there at our table

Christine I'm there we're alone with them and he said no no cancer won't touch this house in Jesus name and it was my wife who is just not like this vocally ever even if she says it after when they're gone she like hit the table godly but just like she said no no

I was like oh here we go she said cancer has touched this home and she's like crying her little fist you know on the table cancer has touched this home and we trust the

Lord and he gives and he takes away and she goes on this little like sermonette on the sovereignty of God and she says and we will trust her and I don't want my son to die but even if he does

God is still good and she's just like going off and so it it was more of a

God is sovereign we trust him your your little in Jesus name cancer won't touch this house isn't working and never will it has touched this home too late and here's our theology on this so that route became a very interesting checkpoint now here's what they would have done and this is applicable to where he's at now

Timothy just crossed through one of his important and really important appointments to be five years old they wanted five year old birthday with no major incidents and he has it and so but what my family members will do if let's say he's he older just never comes back if you leave it to those arguments they'll say either well

God why why would we heal you the Lord you've touched the Lord's anointed even we can't stop that so there's answer one so you go

I'm not gonna challenge that to there's the well we chose to pray for you and have mercy on you and not the

Lord gives us the choice sometimes to allow him to curse or to bless and because we love you we've said bless and so we're not gonna fight you and now they look noble so it's a real twisted sick game of if he's not healed it's because we have said and you've touched the

Lord's anointed if he if it does go well it's because we've decided to stay silent while you are on whatever crusade you're on against us we have taken the high road we will bless you and we love you and so whatever it is it's the sickest

PR twist ever but you don't play I don't play to those cards

I just go theology theology theology God's sovereign he's good and so when it all goes well they can claim whatever they claim but in the end it's like no

God God's in charge so that's been helpful for some of these conversations I think

I do think they were waiting for everything to implode they don't say this arrogantly at all there's no what is boasting we have nothing that the

Lord isn't given they were waiting for my son to get worse our marriage to fall apart my life to start you know falling apart and us to get sick and everything to go bad and when the

Lord you go through trials still but when the Lord doesn't kill my son for now we

Lord willing we're all who knows what tomorrow holds and we're just keep preaching the

Bible and everything's kind of simple that my mom called it recently stability she said there's just this stability with you guys and I'm like mom it's because of sound doctrine that's what it is yeah

I know it's just and you know when my siblings move around to visit like a dozen false teachers and keep deciding

Oh God's moving us here now I think just like MacArthur others have said truth and time go hand in hand you just let and I pray that with the

Lord I say Lord make us real like I want to be real saved real pastor a real church

I don't just let us be let us be faithful don't let us ever wander from your your word so with that my hope is over the years that if we just serve the

Lord that he would he would let that be a witness to some of my family members okay are you now convinced that your stuff doesn't work

I'll tell you what does and I don't want to make you look bad I just want you to know the

Lord so if that makes sense yeah it's a good approach the guy that did the first session went long so we're gonna have to speed this up a bit so rapid -fire answer this you go down the family rabbit hole and it's a mess yeah what are your hobbies and non ministry interests other than hockey and baseball yeah you took away the two two big ones

I love to hunt I like the outdoors going hunting this fall to Wyoming with my boy and then

I like to go on family walks I love to hang out with my wife and I like I'm pretty rough

I like to I have a men's Bible study we don't do it often but we put out mats we do jiu -jitsu

I like to fight a little my boys and I wrestle just like playing sports and I like reading to kind of a nerd okay up to after John MacArthur's commentary on John and after church awakening by Chuck Swindoll what are five books that have radically influenced and shaped you since your epiphany after MacArthur's what

John 5 commentary his commentary on yes so that's obviously an influential so five others than those two that have that have radically shaped all right master's plan for the church and I'm not

I won't sorry it's like John MacArthur GTY bookstore promo ad yeah master's plan for the church

I can't say enough about it it's just one of those ecclesiology books that that knocked your socks off and you go why are we doing why would we not do church biblically another one was

J Max Stiles evangelism it's just a little red book and I read that and it it gave me a good understanding of evangelism and how

I should be and then there was another one at that time back then there was a little blue book by Mark Devere called discipling and it was all about how you should be in the life of your people you should be making disciples in the local church you should be meeting with people and I was like that's what

I should be doing and so to make disciples was super helpful that'd be three in particular that impacted

I could list ten more but those three in particular were really helpful for how to do church and how to understand but I really did devour

I did my own work I went to seminary and I wasn't like John MacArthur says it I agree but reading like I read pastoral ministry from the faculty at masters and MacArthur's names on it but there's other guys over and that book showed me what it means

I struck or Strouch Alexander Strouch's book on biblical eldership

I was like wow plurality okay that'll keep the train on the track so think books I read a ton of biblical church leadership books because I desperately we were talking earlier about the importance of church leadership

I desperately wanted to know how leadership is supposed to be so that I could try to be that and then just get to serve have you ever gone back and reconnected with the coach oh all the time yeah

I just narrated the video for DB use Road to Omaha Oh trick trailer they did the script but I night yeah co -chiefs awesome you mentioned praying for celebrities athletes during your family vacations can you give us some names that maybe you haven't mentioned in the book

I didn't mention today yeah so I mentioned Darrell strawberry

Carl Everett oh you all know well Evander Holyfield everybody knows that story or if you don't it was on YouTube he got healed of a heart condition then went won a fight that's like the greatest not good promo ever for the ministry at that time

I made it more made him more famous T and Tamara the the owner it was the the family and tell you this here you know the the family that was going through a lot that ended up getting well you know the

Illich family they own the Red Wings and the Tigers and Little Caesars it was there there they got in our orbit so I ended up at the

World Series really good seats in 2006 games one and two and the Cardinals played the

Tigers so that whole era was just interesting the amount of wealth and and you know what it is it's not it's not as though they all bought into my uncle per se but they were front row with their hands up some of them were but rich really really rich people that aren't saved who get sick or have kids that are sick or are going through tough times they just want their great life back and the prosperity gospel sells you the

American dream so they want that they don't want if Jesus can give them that cool give me give me

Jesus as a means to my end so that was the the heart behind it who doesn't want to have a

Hall of Fame career be super rich and have your kids not be sick all of them so they look to these kind of gurus for that how did your family your immediate family your mom your dad you guys become rich was it because of your uncle

Benny's ministry and your request writing the coattails of that or did you did your dad have his own little prosperity healing get going on on the side yes so before we traveled with uncle

Benny my dad had a church his own crusades he was on TV in Canada locally and across the nation on it was called vision

TV was the title of channel the network and his program was called life in the spirit with Henry him my dad had a

TV program like they were he copied basically what my uncle was doing in Florida and then in my teenage years big money with traveling with uncle

Benny and that's what pulled from our local church like if you looked at what

Vancouver Christian Center was the name of it what it became it was very bleak it ended up being very small it dwindled down and the reason was that the lure of traveling with my uncle

I mean you could make six figures on one trip just come back so do that again and again and the money we had the amount of like the cars and the you just that's basically on salary with your uncle

Benny as part of that ministry yeah you paid paid per trip like they would pay per trip and big like big like per day amounts per trip even a travel day like massive massive amounts big money and and then to like you you raise money you take offerings that are big some of the characters that were around Steve Muncy was this guy from Chicago he's got the blonde hair and looked like he had a lot of plastic surgery seriously looks like he said way too much

Botox honestly and so that's how you know me like there's Steve Muncy and he's a money he's a money man he raises big money he's the guy yelling on TBN like go to your phones right now go to your phones like God's gonna bless you and you're just like poor people although I know they raise up teachers in accordance with their own desires yeah so there's that and my dad had a way about him with with fundraising too and and kind of being that guy so you can get paid pretty good raising money as well in your book you talk tell the story of your uncle

George dying of cancer yeah my mom said you kind of already addressed this

I guess with your son on a more personal level about how they deal with that theologically was there a similar crisis or dealing with your uncle

George dying of cancer theologically did they wrestle through that and blame him for lack of faith yeah he was blamed for not attending there were some weird weird things that described his death or he'd decide described his cancer and stroke and some of the whole things he was dealing with there was a whole conglomerate of things one of them was he had spoken against my dad or the ministry and got around the wrong people so he was you don't allow negative voices in your life either so it's not enough that you don't say anything against them but when you allow others in your life your living room your friendship circles who speak against a man of God the same things that come upon them will come upon you so he had gotten around some people that have left our church some other family members on my mom's side who weren't too thrilled with my dad and some of the antics and you know they were all they were all in the circle theologically like they would have been just as happy at an assembly of God Church that had integrity with the way they dealt with finances and but at that time he was he was pushing against some things and you think he was a believer yeah

I do think that I think he was and I think some others were just general normal believe the gospel type so it's not that they were he was reformed or anything like that just just charismatic but what

Justin would call clear -thinking charismatic in terms of he just saw some of the issues and thought this isn't quite right yeah and that that's an important distinction there's a lot of people that have reached out

I've talked to before and friends kind people sweet people who are in the assemblies of God organization denomination or in some of these circles who say you know we don't we don't we're not gonna see eye to eye on tongues and on some of these things

Kosti but man your uncle's a heretic like yep and we agree with you on everything and Bethel's a problem and we want nothing to do with them but they're clear -thinking charismatics is a great way to put it there's a lot of folks like that and they just stay quiet they tend to stay quiet because they don't want trouble they say something and then their own kind start yelling at them and they're just like I that in their local autonomous church they operate that way and I think some of these folks were that for sure and others were just following a man last question how long did it take you after you came out of that movement from when you got saved to get over the fear if you had one that you're speaking out against your uncle and you're not being under the anointing would cause you curses and calamities how long did it take for you to get over that superstition almost

I don't remember like not long

I don't remember having a lot of it it was gun blazing probably too much did you have that fear when you left

Vancouver to go to California before that church plant oh yeah so a few times I wondered like we're broke like food stamps broke and mom and dad weren't sending you a check every month to help sustain you no and we had gotten rid of it so I was more superstitious here's here's one for you maybe this is true

I was getting rid of stuff because I didn't want it in our house because I I felt like remember the sin of Aiken and Joshua 7 there was a band he kept some stuff remember that yes and Joshua's mad because the little hooligans from AI do him in and he's like you just took down Jericho because we marched around and blew trumpets and now this little bit

Attila the Hun comes over and takes us out like what and God goes get up like why are you on your face he tells

Joshua rise up and says you're you've been disobedient so in the same way

I was worried that like Louis Vuitton purses in the closet my Breitling nice shoes stuff

I had from the prosper I'm like get it out of the house anything under the band get it out you know or the

Lord won't bless us in the truth now so that would have been more my superstition which we did get rid of everything

I've had some people now say like you should have kept the Hummer a good off -road car yeah we're like though but we we got rid of everything like there were some things that you just I just gave to unbelievers at a work event what like yeah like things that were worth thousands of dollars and I didn't know what to do with it all and so something so that sold and money money was given to the church and I was like this donation made in the name of Benny and stuff like that was that was what

I was more afraid of I really did when that moment the

John 5 moment happened Tony had to had to yank the leash he had to reign me in I needed to be discipled to be the mathetes the learners the pupils like that the guy that just just be quiet and be taught because I wanted to just you know when you know something and you're in it and then people defend it you're like you have no

I like there's stories I don't even tell things like I won't say because it doesn't edify that I pray the

Lord will it'll either come out or there's like lifestyle things and things that would have been too much tabloid fare like the

Bible says things not not even fit to be spoken of there so for me it was the

Lord opened my eyes I knew that I was on his side and I was saved so I had no fear and so that like we got death threats and phone calls and there's different times where I slept in the front of our apartment with a shotgun and was like you know

I might have to defend my house tonight if they come try to kill us but so that that fear quote like I'm someone may show up to church and you know come after me but never never if I say things our homes gonna get hit

I was thinking we're on the side of truth and I believe

God's Word and I know we're actually saved even if we die we're in God's will yes sovereignty told sovereignty absolutely all right that's it for my questions tonight so I will close in prayer when

I'm done we'll be dismissed you're free to leave your books and stuff here on your table if you'd like just no valuables you can bring the cards up and put them anywhere on this middle table here and we'll do that at the second

Q &A session so let's bow in prayer father we are thankful for what we have heard here tonight we are reminded again of your sovereign grace your goodness you are sovereign in our salvation and that you have appointed all the things that you bring into the lives of your people for our sanctification our progression and holiness and ultimately for your glory and for our good so we thank you for our brother

Kosti that you have brought him out of that darkness and into the kingdom of light your dear son and we would pray that his ministry and his faithfulness to the truth we continue to be a testimony to his parents his siblings his family and his uncle

Benny and if it be according to your sovereign will that you would bring salvation to them in your good time and that they would glorify you through genuine and true repentance so we pray that you'd keep him faithful to that end and may you edify and encourage us throughout this weekend we pray in Christ's name amen amen all right thank you