Wesleyanism (Part 3)

Sovereign Grace Family Church

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February 21, 2016

My Pathway to Calvinism (Part 4)

00:00: And with a word of prayer, our Father and our God, we thank you for the opportunity to study your Word.
00:07: We pray that we would be faithful to what your Word has to teach us, that we would be fair when talking about the teachings of other denominations of Christianity, those who might disagree with us on secondary issues.
00:23: And Father, help us to always seek your truth and to never substitute truth for certainty, as is such often the case.
00:37: Father, we just thank you for the Word of God.
00:40: May we be ever faithful to it, in Jesus' name.
00:43: Amen.
00:45: Well, this morning we are going to try to finish up our study of Wesleyanism.
00:54: The next couple of studies in the book are Liberal Theology, Existential Theology, and Neo-Orthodox.
01:01: So we've got quite a few left in this chapter.
01:05: But I am going to be taking a short break in May from this class.
01:11: Brother Lee is going to teach...
01:12: I said May, I meant March.
01:15: My mistake.
01:16: Brother Lee is going to teach in here for a few weeks.
01:19: And I'll still be in here on the Sundays I'm here, but I am going to be out at least one Sunday in May.
01:23: March! Sorry, I keep saying that.
01:25: I'm going to be out at least one week, possibly two.
01:28: So I just wanted to have him teach for me for a few weeks, give me an opportunity to be a part of the class rather than teaching.
01:34: It's always good for me to sit under good teaching and be able to interact in that regard.
01:39: So looking forward to that.
01:41: So if we don't finish up Wesleyanism today, we'll finish it up next week, because there's one more Sunday in February, correct? So I'll be teaching at least one more week.
01:50: And if we do finish it up today, we probably won't start into something else.
01:53: I'll probably do an off-topic lesson next week just as a singular lesson.
01:58: Probably a follow-up to my sermon this morning because my sermon this morning is on King James Onlyism.
02:03: And I know that I'm not going to get to say everything that I want to say in the sermon, so I may make next week a follow-up Sunday school lesson.
02:11: At least so we'd have it on recording to be able to address some of the textual variant issues with the textus receptus and things like that.
02:20: It's going to be a fun lesson.
02:22: It's a lesson that always gets people thinking.
02:25: So anyway, today we're going to finish up our study of Wesleyanism and the Wesleyan quadrilateral.
02:33: If you remember, we talked about that.
02:36: Wesley had this principle, and this wasn't something that he necessarily wrote.
02:39: This is something that his students have extrapolated from his teachings.
02:43: You won't see Wesley having written anything about a quadrilateral, just to be fair.
02:49: When you hear of the Wesleyan quadrilateral, it's sort of like the five points of Calvinism.
02:52: Calvin never wrote the five points of Calvinism.
02:55: He never distilled his teaching into five points.
02:58: It was his students' students' students who did that.
03:01: But the ideas are still his.
03:05: You can still call it Calvinism in the sense that it derives out of that.
03:09: Well, the same for the Wesleyan quadrilateral.
03:11: These four things are sort of distillations of the teachings of how Wesley went about in the discovery and application of truth.
03:20: The first one was scripture was paramount, but truth was to be derived not only from scripture, but also from reason, from tradition, and from experience.
03:33: We've looked at reason and tradition.
03:35: We've said there's valid things to consider from both of those, but they both have issues.
03:41: Reason is important.
03:42: We don't want to be unreasonable.
03:44: We don't want to exist in constant contradiction.
03:49: We want to deal with reason properly.
03:54: We want to understand that we're not contradicting ourselves.
03:56: We don't say God is and is not at the same time in the same relationship.
04:01: That's contradiction, and we don't want to do that.
04:05: We believe that reason is important, but where does reason fail? Well, reason fails in the reality that our minds are still under the effects of the fall.
04:15: And even as saved people, our minds still have the noetic effect of the fall whereby we don't think perfectly.
04:25: In fact, we think very imperfectly.
04:27: And we are thinking is often distorted by the flesh.
04:31: It's distorted by sinful desires.
04:34: It's distorted by bad information.
04:36: How easy is it to manipulate the minds of people? Look at the current political process.
04:42: Look at the frontrunners in politics and how easily they have manipulated the minds of people.
04:48: And so it's dangerous to say that reason alone is enough.
04:54: Reason is important, but reason is...it cannot ever be its own guide to truth.
05:03: Yes, it's certainly not infallible, exactly.
05:07: Tradition also.
05:08: There are traditions that are important.
05:10: The traditions handed down, particularly the early church traditions, the councils, the teachings that came out of those.
05:15: Those are important.
05:17: Those have foundational value to tell us what those closest to Jesus Christ and those in the first few centuries of the church believed.
05:24: And the traditions that came out of those are foundational for our understanding of Christianity.
05:29: And the people who come along today like the Restoration Movement who say, you know, we haven't had the truth for 1,800 years and now I have the truth.
05:36: They've denied 1,800 years of history.
05:40: And that's dangerous to do to simply say, you know, no one had the truth before me.
05:44: I mean, what kind of hubris, what kind of prideful thinking does it take to say, you know what, nobody's ever known anything before I came along.
05:52: You know, that's a scary type of hubris.
05:56: Well, that kind of leads us up to where we are now.
06:00: Experience.
06:02: Experience for Wesley and for his followers is very important.
06:08: The idea that we experience our faith, we act on our faith, we work in our faith.
06:16: And I think if you look at the book of James, you see that James addresses experience as something that's very important.
06:21: We're actually, we participate in our faith.
06:24: It's not just a mental assent, but it's an active thing in our life.
06:29: Our faith should transform us and cause us to do.
06:33: And so there's an experience there and for a Wesleyan, the idea of experience is very important.
06:41: But here's where experience becomes dangerous for some people.
06:46: And I would say this is particularly true in the holiness movement of which I have had tremendous experience because of the situation in which I grew up.
06:58: My mother being in the holiness church.
06:59: So I went to the holiness church pretty much every other weekend for several years.
07:03: I would go to this church on one weekend and the other church on the other weekend.
07:06: And it was a back and forth.
07:07: And boy, it was a total difference because this church was very conservative behavior.
07:17: You know, not necessarily conservative theology, but very conservative behavior.
07:20: Everyone stood at the right time, sat at the right time, didn't say anything.
07:24: And if you got an amen out of somebody, you did something special.
07:26: You had a loaded piece of dynamite that Sunday because you never got an amen.
07:30: In fact, I remember, and you'll remember this, Mike, possibly, when Florence or someone would play the organ, as church began, they had the playing of the bells, the ringing of the bells.
07:41: You remember that? When it was time for church, 1030, she would be playing the organ, the prelude.
07:47: But when it was time for church to begin, she would play boom, boom, boom on the organ.
07:55: And it was the signified church bells.
07:58: It was a signifying, church is about to begin.
08:01: So if you were an eight-year-old Keith Foskey, you knew, stop moving.
08:06: Don't do nothing.
08:07: Sit very quietly as it's about to start.
08:10: And from that moment, for the next hour and 15 minutes, you didn't move.
08:14: And if you did, you got in trouble.
08:17: Couldn't get up and go to the bathroom, you better do that beforehand.
08:20: You couldn't do nothing.
08:22: When I got here, when I first came, they weren't doing that.
08:25: What I remember, when church would start, half the people were still talking to each other while you were gone.
08:34: I'm thinking, I'm 88, 89, 87, 88, this is 30 years ago now.
08:41: Oh my goodness, I'm so old.
08:42: That's 30 years ago.
08:46: So, anyway, I'm just thinking, it didn't matter.
08:58: I used to think of myself as a young man, I don't anymore.
09:02: I'm not.
09:03: I'm middle-aged at best.
09:08: So, anyway, then I would go to the Holiness Church.
09:15: And Holiness Church was always, it was very exciting.
09:19: To the child, it was frightening because everything was explosive.
09:25: And as soon as you walked in, we're going to have a little talk with Jesus.
09:28: I just remember that song, it was every Sunday they did that song.
09:32: And it was always, that was how you started.
09:34: And boom, everybody got up.
09:35: And you knew the song.
09:35: It was one thing good about it is nobody ever didn't sing.
09:38: Because once you've heard the song 100 times and it's been played every Sunday for the start of the service, so that was what everybody stood up and sang.
09:43: And they had everybody, whoever wanted to join the choir could come join the choir.
09:47: So, like 15 people would flood down to the chancel and be standing up there and they'd be singing.
09:50: Some had tambourines, some had guitars.
09:52: It really was very...
09:55: Spontaneous.
09:55: Spontaneous, yeah, that's a positive word.
09:58: It was very spontaneous.
09:59: It was a bit of chaos.
10:02: And I remember seeing the guy's shiny shoes walking across the back of the pews because he would step on the pews and he would walk across the back of the pews pointing at people and, do you know where you're going to go? Very serious.
10:15: Experiential thing.
10:17: And it was really about the experience.
10:20: Because toward the end of the service, they would force this emotional response whereby the altar that they called it, it's a kneeling bench, it actually came out of the Methodist movement, it's called the mourner's bench.
10:35: And it was the place where everyone would come forward and they would get down on their knees, other people would come surround them, put their hands on them, and you'd hear people weeping and you'd see people fall down.
10:46: And it was very much an experiential...
10:51: It titillated the senses because it excited you mentally, excited you physically because your whole body was excited about what's happening.
11:03: And so it was very, very experiential.
11:07: And here's what I have learned over the years in talking to folks.
11:13: If I challenge them on this, I've heard this response on several occasions.
11:21: You can't question my experience because it's my experience.
11:29: In fact, I've heard the old quote is a man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.
11:39: In fact, on our website, I have an article written about that.
11:42: About that particular quote.
11:45: Because I remember a guy who was very, very obviously teaching false doctrine about Christianity.
11:52: Very, very obviously.
11:53: This wasn't in a church atmosphere.
11:55: This was actually in the martial arts world.
11:57: I was...
11:57: I knew some people in a Christian martial arts group.
12:03: So they invited me to participate in what they were doing.
12:05: So I went down to their little seminar that they were having.
12:08: And I noticed they had guys who were teaching Taoism and Shinto.
12:11: They had guys who were teaching all kinds of false religions under the guise of Christianity.
12:17: And I was floored.
12:19: I was amazed at what they were allowing.
12:22: The agnostics there and everything.
12:24: And I was wow.
12:27: I can't believe this.
12:29: Well, in the midst of all that something was said.
12:33: The guy who was in charge was saying, I don't need any of you to approve of what I'm doing because I have already had my experience.
12:41: And a man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.
12:45: And I said, I'm out.
12:47: I'm done.
12:49: If you are telling me that your experience is somehow more valid than the word of the living God.
12:59: And that if your experience contradicts the word of God, it cannot be questioned.
13:06: Then you have gone well past where I can follow.
13:10: It's definitely God's word and that's what it's all about.
13:13: But when I think of an experience, I think of something that's happened in my life that I'm involved with that is like, I don't know, that God's manifestation of the Holy Spirit of his presence in my life that you just have to go, wow, that was God working.
13:35: That's God moving.
13:36: That's the kind of experience that I think of rather than a feeling that comes over me experience.
13:43: Is that what they're talking about? Let me give you an example of what I think.
13:51: Some use this as, and I've actually seen this.
13:53: Maybe this will help.
13:56: Let's say we are talking about something like homosexuality as a sin.
14:04: Homosexuality is a sin.
14:06: The Bible teaches us that if a person continues to live in sin after confessing Christ that they demonstrate that their confession is not valid because they are unrepentant.
14:16: In fact, this is Matthew 18 with the whole church discipline issue as a person who is continuing in unrepentant sin.
14:22: 1 John tells us that if we continue to live in sin, a person who claims to be born again continues to live in sin has not been born again.
14:32: Let's say that you and I'm not picking on you, Mike, but let's just say you met a person who was a fine individual.
14:40: Very sweet person.
14:42: They confess Jesus Christ.
14:44: You say, hey, this is a great person.
14:46: Yet that person says, I'm homosexual.
14:51: I'm a gay Christian.
14:53: I live a gay Christian lifestyle.
14:56: I believe by experience because I feel God working in my life that I am right with God.
15:06: Is their experience more valid than Scripture? Here's where it goes even further.
15:13: Let's say you see that person as a genuine believer and you really like this person.
15:19: You really feel like a lot out of this person.
15:22: You've really grown attached to this person.
15:24: You come to me as a church member of Sovereign Grace and you say, yeah, I've got Joe over here.
15:30: Joe's homosexual.
15:33: He's a Christian.
15:34: I believe him because I have experienced Joe's fidelity to Christ and I have no reason.
15:40: My experience trumps Scripture because I've experienced Joe's fidelity to Christ.
15:47: Would your experience trump the Bible? And that's the danger.
15:54: That's all I'm saying.
15:55: People will use an experience, whether it be with an individual, whether it be with an emotional experience, anything to rise above and say this is my standard for truth.
16:12: I don't think Wesley did that, but I know that his followers, some, have allowed experience to become the end all, be all of truth.
16:24: And that's dangerous.
16:26: The Apostle Peter of all people could claim experience.
16:32: He saw Jesus talk with Moses and Elijah, saw Jesus transformed.
16:38: Later when he was older, he said, no, there's a more sure word of prophecy than what I saw.
16:45: There you go.
16:46: Absolutely.
16:47: The Word of God must be the standard and again, being fair to Wesley, I think he believed that.
16:53: I think he believed that everything must be tested to the Bible even though we would disagree with him on theological points.
16:59: I think that he would say that yes, my reason is important, but it must be tested by Scripture.
17:04: Yes, my tradition is important, but it must be tested by Scripture.
17:07: Yes, my experience is important, but it must be tested by Scripture.
17:12: And ultimately, I must be willing to be corrected by Scripture and the danger is when we are not willing to be corrected by Scripture.
17:23: Alright, well that ends the subject of the quadrilateral.
17:26: I want to move to one last thing on Wesleyanism before we totally step away from this, unless anybody has a question.
17:34: Can I move on? Because I have 25, maybe 20, 25 minutes left and I can at least examine this last subject of Wesleyanism.
17:45: There is a part of Wesleyanism that has always been of great concern to me and I've experienced this on several occasions in teaching different people and that is what is known as Wesleyan Perfectionism.
18:00: How many of you have ever heard the term Wesleyan Perfectionism? You've heard it? Okay, maybe a few of you.
18:20: Wesleyan Perfectionism is the teaching sometimes called Entire Sanctification.
18:29: It is the teaching by John Wesley that Christians could to some degree attain perfection from sin in this life.
18:42: Wesley described it and this is in his writing.
18:45: That habitual disposition of the soul which in the sacred writings is termed holiness and which directly implies being cleansed from sin free from all filthiness both of flesh and spirit and by consequence being endued with those virtues which were in Christ Jesus being so renewed in the image of our mind as to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect.
19:12: He wrote that in the plain account of Christian Perfectionism and then again he wrote in this is perfection and glory and happiness.
19:21: The royal law of Heaven and Earth is this.
19:22: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind and with all thy strength the one perfect good shall be your ultimate end.
19:31: Lastly perfection is deliverance from inward as well as from outward sin and a Christian is so far perfect as not to commit sin.
19:39: This is all from that same writing.
19:42: Does he say then that a Christian can get to a point where he has no sin in his life? That is it.
19:51: How does he justify 1 John? 1 John chapter 1 where the person says I have no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.
20:01: Well I've spoken to people who believe this and I've addressed that same.
20:05: That's a verse of course I went to and the response is that that is past.
20:10: No one can say they have no past sins.
20:14: The tense is not appropriate.
20:16: Greek doesn't agree with that.
20:18: It also makes no sense in the context of the letter either.
20:24: I don't even look at that as much as dirty rags.
20:27: Dude the best thing you ever did was dirty rags.
20:37: Here again is Wesley's argument.
20:40: Wesley's argument is that we have been saved from sin, from the power of sin and we do believe that.
20:47: We believe that there's three ways in which we are saved.
20:50: We're saved first from the penalty of sin, that is justification.
20:54: We're saved from the power of sin, that's sanctification and we're saved from the presence of sin and that's glorification.
21:02: Where I think Wesleyanism confuses the two is the presence of sin is not removed until we're glorified in glory.
21:10: Where they would say the presence of sin can be removed now.
21:15: So sanctification can become a total thing whereby a person is not willing to sin and this is another divide in the teaching.
21:28: Another divide in the teaching is this.
21:34: Some believe you're not able to sin at all.
21:37: Some believe that you're not willing to sin at all but not that you can't, that you don't want to.
21:46: So here's the difference.
21:47: A person who says they can't sin at all don't give option for any type of error.
21:55: The person who says that you will not sin is a person who's not saying you couldn't make a mistake but you won't willingly.
22:02: It's the difference between falling and stepping.
22:03: You know, I fall down, I step into something.
22:08: And so there's the difference.
22:10: And I think that that would have been the actual Wesley's position.
22:13: It's not that a person who is sanctified cannot fall but that a person who is sanctified will not step.
22:19: Will not willingly do that which is unpleasing to God.
22:23: And they believe in something called the second blessing whereby you are justified when you believe but not until you are given the second blessing do you have this entire sanctification that comes upon you and this entire sanctification causes you to go from sinner to not sinner or from sinner to saint.
22:48: How many of you know Joyce Meyer? Of course, right? Joyce Meyer says very plainly, I am not a sinner.
22:54: She said, I didn't quit sinning until I realized I wasn't a sinner anymore.
22:58: That's a direct quote by the way.
22:59: I've memorized it because I've read it so many times.
23:02: She says, I didn't stop sinning until I realized I wasn't a sinner anymore.
23:10: So what's that statement imply? One, that she doesn't sin and two, she's no longer a sinner.
23:17: That's the direct thing that she said in that statement.
23:21: And I, again, we had a guy come here one Wednesday night.
23:24: I've told you guys this story, I think, but in case I haven't, I like to share stories and sometimes I'll share them more than once.
23:29: But a guy came here on a Wednesday night.
23:31: He listened to Aaron preach because Aaron was teaching that night on Baptist history, actually.
23:37: And halfway or so through the lesson, he got up to leave and I followed him out.
23:41: And I said, well, it was nice having you with us tonight.
23:45: You know, this was a unique lesson because we were in a series on history.
23:49: I said, so you kind of came in midstream.
23:52: If you have any questions about it, I'd love to talk to you.
23:54: And he said, oh, I'm fine.
23:55: You know, I just kind of wanted to see what you guys were all about.
23:57: What are y'all all about? Not used to that question.
24:02: Man, we're all about Jesus, you know, that could have been the answer.
24:05: We're all about Scripture, you know, whatever.
24:07: But the guy, you know, what are you all about? Okay.
24:10: I said, our church is dedicated to teaching that every man is a sinner in desperate need of a Savior and Jesus Christ is the only Savior.
24:24: I said, every man is a sinner in desperate need of a Savior and Jesus Christ is the only Savior.
24:28: That's what we're all about.
24:29: And he said, well, I'm not a sinner.
24:32: I literally made that noise.
24:40: I thought he was kidding.
24:43: You're not a sinner.
24:44: You're out of your mind.
24:46: And he said, no.
24:47: And he opened his Bible and he said, see right here, sinners will have their place in the lake of fire and I'm not a sinner because I'm not going to help.
24:57: With Westland Perfectionism, do they need Jesus anymore? You're perfect.
25:01: Why do you need Jesus? Well, they would say it's the Holy Spirit who's making them perfect so they would say they still need it.
25:06: I mean, I get where you're going.
25:08: But that would be their response.
25:10: But his whole argument was he was making a category statement.
25:16: And I will say this.
25:18: If you are a Christian, and now here's, this is before you get mad at me, hear me out.
25:24: I'm putting this on recording and I'm willing to have this go nationwide.
25:28: International.
25:32: Categorically, if you are in Christ, you are no longer categorically a sinner.
25:40: You are a saint.
25:41: You are Haggias, the Holy One, because God has made you holy.
25:45: God has made you holy.
25:46: Your spirit doesn't save your flesh.
25:48: No, no, no.
25:49: I'm not even going there.
25:50: I'm just saying, in Biblical categories, the sinner, what did Jesus, he talked about, you know, Paul talked about it in Romans.
26:01: He says, we know that we're of Abraham.
26:04: We're not like Gentile sinners.
26:05: There were categories in Scripture and sinner was a category of those who were outside of God.
26:11: Those who were outside of Christ and those who were inside of Christ were called Haggiasmas.
26:16: Haggias, the holy ones.
26:18: The Greek is the term holy.
26:20: Haggiasmas is the word for saint or holy one.
26:24: Okay, so yes, you are categorized differently, but that does not mean that you are not a sinner in practicality.
26:34: It means you're not a sinner in category because all of the sin, past, present, and future that you have has already been paid for at the cross.
26:43: Christ's righteousness has been applied to your account so that when God looks at you, he looks at you through the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and thus you are saint, not sinner, categorically.
26:57: But, here's where the man made his fatal error.
27:00: Because if he'd have argued that, I'd have said, hey, I don't disagree.
27:03: That's not the argument he made.
27:05: He said, I don't sin.
27:07: That's the argument that I will tell you you are wrong.
27:13: I asked him.
27:14: I said, sir, the Bible commands, the greatest commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength from the moment you arose from your bed this morning to the moment you stood here before me now.
27:29: Have you loved the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength all day without fail? And he said, I didn't say I was perfect.
27:40: I quit because you just did.
27:43: You said, I don't sin.
27:44: What is it if not a sin that you don't love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength perfectly? It's the greatest sin because it's the greatest commandment.
27:54: This is why Roman Catholicism falls on its face.
27:57: Because it said there's mortal sin and venial sin.
27:59: Mortal sin robs you of justification.
28:01: Venial sin only causes you to increase your time in purgatory.
28:06: But you ask him, what if I don't love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength perfectly? Is that a mortal sin? They'll say no.
28:13: I say, but wait.
28:14: It's the greatest commandment.
28:15: How could it not be a mortal sin? If it's the greatest commandment, how can it not have the greatest penalty? And he's infallible.
28:26: There's a whole other story there.
28:28: But my point being, Wesleyan perfectionism, if what you are saying is the imputed righteousness of Christ has made you perfect before the Lord thy God, I don't have an issue with that, but that's not what they're saying.
28:43: They're saying that they have reached a point by which they no longer sin willingly.
28:50: And I just want to take you to one verse of Scripture.
28:54: There it is right there.
28:56: Or is that yours? That's mine, isn't it? Oh, okay.
28:59: That's the one I use.
29:00: Go to Galatians 5, and we'll end with this.
29:04: Because a lot of people like to go to Romans 7, and there's a lot of debate about Romans 7 as to whether or not Paul's talking about his pre-conversion, post-conversion, and all that.
29:17: And I don't want to discuss that right now because that would take longer than we have the time to discuss.
29:24: But in Galatians chapter 5, verse 16, the Apostle Paul says this.
29:41: But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
29:47: For the desires of the flesh, verse 17, are against the Spirit.
29:52: And the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
30:03: So what does Paul tell us there? Again, eliminating Romans 7 from the equation, because he says a similar thing in Romans 7.
30:12: But there are those who would debate Romans 7 as a pre-conversion argument, and I don't want to argue that.
30:19: Just from Galatians 5, based on this text, what does he say? He says, there is a battle which is going on within you.
30:29: You have a Spirit that wants to do what Christ has commanded you, because your Spirit has been regenerated.
30:37: But you have a flesh that wants to do contrary to that.
30:41: They are opposed to each other.
30:43: And what is the desire of the flesh? To keep you from doing what the Spirit wants to do.
30:50: If you reach perfection in this life, the battle is over.
30:59: And Paul never gives us any indication, neither do any of the texts, give us any indication that the battle will be over.
31:07: Jesus said, the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
31:14: That's what I'm talking about, Romans 7, that's it.
31:18: So I think that if I were addressing somebody like I did with the guy that night, I would simply point out the fact you are not perfect.
31:27: You need the imputed righteousness of Christ as much today as you did the day you were justified.
31:31: And you will continue to need the imputed righteousness of Christ as much on the day you die as you need it right now.
31:37: You will never stand before God on your own merits.
31:40: You will never stand before God saying I was completely cleansed on my own, in my own, or for my own.
31:46: I was cleansed because of Christ.
31:48: And I stand justified and I stand holy because of Christ.
31:58: It's Romans 7...
32:01: Yeah, it begins at verse 14 and goes to the end of the chapter.
32:05: And like I said, we talked about the summoned dads and dudes.
32:08: There are different views on that inside.
32:10: Anytime there's a contested passage where I know good men have stood on both sides, I try not to use it to make an argument like this because this is an argument that I might have to possibly face somebody one day on.
32:21: And I know if I pull out Romans 7, they may come, well, this guy thought this and this guy...
32:25: Galatians 5 is clear.
32:27: It says basically the same thing Romans 7 says in one respect, but it says it so clearly without really any contesting.
32:33: There's a battle.
32:48: Again, I agree.
32:54: I think that it's one of the most serious issues.
32:59: Anytime we can ever come to the point where we think that we have arrived at any type of sinlessness, I think that we have abandoned the scriptural teaching.
33:19: Oh, well, yeah, they believe and they can attain godhood if you show them this truth and the Lord's working in that situation.
33:27: You can open their eyes big time.
33:31: I have a couple of minutes.
33:32: I didn't realize I did.
33:33: Let me just add a caveat, one last thought, and then we'll pray and be done.
33:38: And we'll end before time, which we never do.
33:41: Let me add one last caveat.
33:47: Wesley was truly concerned with holiness.
33:51: Did he have a wrong view on this? I think so.
33:54: Do his followers have a wrong view on this? I think so.
33:57: But at the same time, I think that we have, because of our understanding of this particular theology, I think there are times when we abandon pursuit of holiness.
34:10: And that shouldn't be either.
34:11: We should pursue godliness.
34:14: And again, if you follow this text down from Galatians 5, he said, but if you're led by the Spirit, you're not under the law and the works of the flesh are evident.
34:23: And he goes through the list, you know, sexual morality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, drunkenness, got orgies, and he goes through that.
34:31: And he says, but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
34:37: Against such there is no law.
34:38: And those who belong to Jesus Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and its desires.
34:43: Now, does that mean we've done so perfectly? No.
34:45: But what does it mean? It says that if we are following after Christ, our pursuit is holiness.
34:49: Our pursuit is not those things, but our pursuit is Christ.
34:53: And so, we're not talking in terms of perfection.
34:56: We're talking in terms of pursuit.
35:00: And does our life pursue Christ or does our life pursue sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.
35:18: What does your life pursue? And in that regard, I would stand with Wesley and say, you know what, if your life pursues that, it's an unconverted life.
35:30: So I think that there is a balance that we must have.
35:32: Are we going to be perfect? No.
35:35: But should we not strive for holiness? Absolutely.
35:39: Absolutely.
35:41: Any questions? I appreciate the encouragement.
35:45: Let's pray.
35:46: Father, thank you for the Word of God, which leads us into all truth.
35:51: Help us to be ever faithful to it.
35:53: And I pray, Lord, as we go into worship this morning, that we will do so in spirit and in truth.
35:57: In Jesus' name, Amen.