End Times Again

You can say what you want, but you won't around me. Black sheep among misfits.

A misfit in the trailer park at night. A misprint with the sixth sense. Been sick ever since my brother died of an

O .D. My two cents never made sense. Either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.

My 9th Smith on my right side. Why you staring at your cop dot? Signing my

John Hancock on the dotted line. Tell me what's the bottom line. The bottom line is

I'm not right. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight. There's nothing left but the spotlight.

Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight. Moonlight. You can say what you want.

You can say what you want, but you won't around me. You can say what you want. You can say what you...

I'm within the deep end. And I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.

My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. To the

Reformed, I'm just another Baptist. Baptized again, the bastard child of Anabaptist.

Host to child of Reformation society. We don't need your education. Give me a

Bible and a bookshelf of dead men. Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans. Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men.

Making Reformation great again. You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

You can say what you want. You can say what you want. Is it safe?

Is it safe? I don't know. I don't think Brayden... I think Brayden really got raptured.

Brayden actually did get taken. Oh, my goodness.

Buddy, ha, ha. Well, as much as y 'all probably hoped for that to be true,

I want to say this right now for my dispy friends. That wasn't my idea. We're going to blame that on Habs.

Oops. Since Brayden is not here, let me set up my phone.

Okay, let's see what's going on. All right, so welcome to Open Air Theology.

My name is Jeff. And I am one of the hosts here for the

Open Air Theology show. And I'm here with Habs Addison. I'm going to let him introduce himself in a minute.

As far as myself, I am one of the pastor elders of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

And again, I'm here with Habs. Habs, introduce yourself. Well, hello. I am

Habs Addison, former pastor of All Branch Ministries, one of the co -hosts of Open Air Theology, and a part of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tennessee.

And I'm glad I'm here. Hallelujah. Now, I'm not sure what's up with, let me see.

He might have text. Oh, yeah, coming back. I guess he was raptured and now he's coming back.

Yeah, he's coming back for the fourth time. Okay, here he comes.

Oh, I don't see his body though. Let's see. Oh, now he did get taken.

Oh, gosh. Well, that's okay. I think we do better without him. But I thought the wicked got taken away first.

I'm back, baby. Mormons don't go to heaven. No, no, they don't.

Found that one out. So, Brayden, won't you introduce yourself?

I'm Pastor Brayden, the not raptured today, anyway. Yeah, yeah. Christian, pastor of a church named

Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho. If you live in the area, it'd be a blessing to have you come join our fellowship and worship

God with us. And just super thankful to be a part of this group of Open Air Theology and just co -host with Jeff and Haps.

All right. So, topic for the night is end times again. So, as some of you may know, we are on a high rapture watch.

Oh, yes. It was, let's see.

Okay, I don't understand that question. That had nothing to do with our conversation for the night. So, high rapture.

So, there was a high rapture watch for the 15th. There's one for the 19th, and that's today, depending on where you are in the world.

So, if by chance, like we really do, you know, it is what it is, right?

But there's also a high watch on the 23rd. Now, again, we're not doing this to make fun of our dispensational brothers.

But, I mean, we're just doing this to have fun, right? Yeah. I was once a dispensationalist.

And so was I. Haps, I don't think Brayden ever came to the dark side.

I can never claim that title, no. But, yeah.

So, we just want to talk about it because it seems like every year, twice a year, so around Pentecost and around the

Feast of Trumpets. Yes. You know, I was really expecting it around the

Feast of Tabernacles, you know. Just stop and hear me out for a second.

Feast of Tabernacle, Revelation 12 sign. It happened again. And I was disappointed.

I didn't get taken out. Yeah. Well, hey, Josh, if you're a dispensationalist, we'd love to have you on here to have that conversation, brother.

I've been inviting some dispensationalists to come on here. Yeah. No one to come on here.

And if you came on here, we wouldn't clown, dude. No. You know, we're just clowning around because we're all best friends. We're just having fun and stuff.

But if you came on here, we'd give you the utmost respect. Yeah. Maybe we were wrong.

If we were talking about covenant theology, we'd be making fun of the Presbyterian brothers right now.

In which they make fun of us. If we can't have Christian fun, like, like, like what's up?

And he said he'd be happy to come on and engage with us. All right. What about right now? Yeah.

Hop on in, man. That'd be sweet. Yeah. Let's do it right now. I can send you the link.

Yeah. Yeah. Come on in, dude. Let's have fun. Let's set something up. But you have to be, you know, you have to be, you know, you know, graceful with us and laugh and have fun.

Because this is what the show is about. Yeah. If you want to have a serious debate, we can set that up.

Yeah, we can do that too. You want to come on right now and have a conversation and just talk about the things that are going on? I'll send you the link, brother.

Yeah. And let me just tell you, brother, you know, back at our conference back in February, we all sat around smoking cigars and smoking pipes, a whole bunch of pastors and just regular folk.

And some of us were dispensationalists. Some of us were all mills, some were post mill, some were pan mill, you know, and we all made fun of each other and we had a blast and we all love each other very, very, very much.

No one was safe. No one was safe. No one was safe. Yeah, I mean, we were making fun of the

Presbyterian and as soon as he found out a dispensationalist was in the room. Oh yeah,

Greg. Yeah, look at Brayden. He's pointing at his palms like he forgot to get the vaccine for small palms.

Small palms. He didn't get the vaccine for small palms. Oh, look at Kevin Hayes on watching.

What's up, Kevin? Yeah, I mean, all we're doing is, you know, like, you know, if you hang out with us, man, you know, like whenever I was a gangbanger or whatever, you know what

I'm saying? Like me and the boys would hang out, the crew, and we'd hang out, we'd make fun of each other. Yeah.

That's all we're doing, man. That's all we're doing. We're just doing it with fun. Like Kevin Hayes, he's a dispensationalist.

Right, Kevin? Yeah, I don't think he wants to announce that to the world. Dude. Let me tell you something.

I love Kevin Hayes. Yeah, Kevin Hayes. Awesome. That's my boy. Hey, hey. He knows how we are.

Yeah. And he'll make fun of us. We'll make fun of him. Yeah. And it's all good in the

Christian world. I mean, that's how it should be, right? I mean, are we brothers and sisters in the Lord? Yeah.

Well, if we are, then we should be able to make fun of one another without, you know, people getting butt hurt.

Anyway, so yeah, that's all it was. And we want to talk about some end time stuff and stuff like that.

I got to ask a question real fast. Yeah. Brayden, are you posing for GQ magazine or something like that? Look off in the distance.

Look, if I'm going to get raptured, I want to look good while doing it. It's hard for me to look at you because I keep looking in the woods hoping to see

Bigfoot. Yeah. You're not going to see him. I'm not doing demonic calls out here. Someone is asking if we're post -meal.

And the answer is no. No. Whoa. Time out. Did you just flip -flop

Habs? No, I. What are you? Squirrel. What?

Just tell us what you are. Come out. Come out the closet.

I'm a historic post -meal. You are post -meal.

No, it's all meal. Historic post -meal is all meal. Oh, man. Let's call it all meal. I just sound like saying all meal.

Yeah. I get that. I mean, I know the A is a negation, but that's not historically what it means.

Like for the all -millennialist, we believe that. So if you want to take the thousand years, so depending on how you want to look at the thousand years or whatever, and it's fine.

However, listen, when I talk eschatology, I talk eschatology like this.

So I can go. I mean, because there's things that I go. I don't know. You know what

I'm saying? Like, I don't know. But just to tell you where I stand as an all -meal,

I would say that the first advent to the second advent is where I believe the thousand years is.

And so this is the millennial reign, right? Christ is in heaven on the throne of David, ruling and reigning, putting all of his enemies under his feet.

And when he returns, he will put that last enemy under his feet, which is death.

And then we'll have that. Oh, we've got so many making fun of us already.

Who is it? Josh crazy. Is that how you say it?

Josh crazy. I don't know. I don't know how he would pronounce it.

But yeah. So yeah. Make fun of us. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the idea of that is just to break that down in scriptures and Acts chapter two.

It says, according to Luke, that Jesus fulfilled that prophecy of sitting on the

Davidic throne, which is prophesied all over in the old Testament, that he says that he was looking forward to the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that Jesus now stands the right hand, the father that he's seating and sitting on the throne.

And so you would say that's a prophecy that has been realized, has been fulfilled at the resurrection, that that is what

David was looking forward to was that resurrection. And then according to first Corinthians chapter 15, that that is a death has, it has been defeated and it will be defeated when he comes back fully for all people.

And that is when the new song will be song. And that's the issue that I think a lot, in my opinion, that premillennialism runs into because in first Corinthians chapter 15, it teaches that at the coming, the second coming of Christ, death will be done away with, which in premillennialism, it teaches that there's your literal, physical millennial reign where people are still suffering death.

Sin is still taking place. Creation is unglorified. People have yet to receive a fully glorified body in that sense.

And so that is truly problematic to me as an amillennialist, when I read the scripture honestly and see in first Corinthians chapter 15, that when

Christ comes, death is done away with, and then they have a teaching that says that death still takes place. That's why we would love to have you on here,

Josh, just to talk about those things. Yeah. And, you know, you know, I grew up, my family grew up in the

Calvary chapel movement, you know, and I was always force fed that it was like, oh, the, you know, the rapture is going to happen.

And maybe next year or this coming August or, you know, whatever, it was always this paranoia thing, you know?

And, and it was just one, and this is before the internet and it was just like one false prophecy after the other, after the other, after the other.

And, and I'm not saying I, some of my best friends are Calvary chapel, but my, where I, where I got really hung up on.

Yeah. What I got hung up on and what I wrestled with, because, you know, I was dispensational, didn't even know what that was.

But when I came to the faith, I stuck to that because I'd never studied the end things.

I never studied eschatology, but I landed into post mill, you know, because it just sounded, it sounded good.

You know, it was good to me, you know? And, and, and as I started studying, it was me and Jeff were both post millennialist and, and theonomist.

And we had another show together and we were being convicted by the scriptures is what the scriptures were showing us.

And, and so my, my big question was, is

Christ coming back? Well, yes, we, we all agree with that. When he comes back, is he going to, is the dead in Christ going to rise first?

Well, yeah. And then those that are left on the earth will rise. Well, yeah. So we believe that's the rapture right there.

And then we'll be gathered together with him in the air. All right. And then, uh, uh,

Christ is going to separate the goats and sheep and stuff like that. But what, what they want me to believe is that we're going to reign with Christ.

Um, when he returns, that's when he'll be on the, uh, Davidic throne. All right.

And he's going to reign when he comes back and we're going to reign with him. Get this in our glorified bodies.

Did you hear that in our glorified bodies? And, and, and we're going to reign with them for a thousand years.

And then Satan is going to get let loose after the thousand year reign, uh, and to deceive the nations.

Well, all new nations are going to be flowing to Christ. You know, so I had these questions that does not make any sense at all, but so that, that's what

I was struggling with. And I, I, I believe what Jesus said when he said all authority in heaven and on earth in heaven and on earth has been given to him.

Uh, therefore go, that's why we go and make disciples of all nations and baptize them in the name of the father, son, and the

Holy spirit, teaching them to obey all that Christ has commanded and low. He'll be with us.

He'll, he'll be with us until the end of the age. And so I think somebody's wrong.

It's, it's, it's either, uh, the, um, Jesus and the scriptures are wrong or maybe, uh, and I, I believe it's, it's, uh, something

I, I'm not going to, I was going to say something rude, but that wouldn't be nice. But I cut my teeth on Perry stone and all these guys, you know what

I'm saying? Like they used to be, uh, on my, on my license plate. It used to say, uh, this, this vehicle in case of rapture, this vehicle will be unmanned.

And, and, and, and again, I try to keep myself like, you know, like if the rapture, if there is a rapture, uh, which

I think there is. I just don't think it's this. I don't think it's as described in, in the premillennial dispensation, uh, schema of things.

Like, like, like if there was one, I wouldn't just like be all man. Okay. He's about to enter in.

So here we go. What's up, man? Oh, what's up, man? How do you say your last name?

You nailed it. Crease. Crease. All right. Crease. Yeah. Okay, man. See, I got from, so I'm trying to put it together, but I, but I'm looking at it and it just, it, to me, it doesn't look like it, but what do

I know? Do you got a West? Do you got a Westminster shirt on? I do, man. Are you Presbyterian?

I'm not, but I go to a, I go to a, uh, URC church, United Reformed. Oh yeah.

Yeah. And they haven't kicked you out. And you're dispensational? Dang. I'm dispensational through and through. Man. Good Lord.

Well, hallelujah. Holler back. Yeah. He's trying to get me to baptize my babies. Don't do it.

Don't do it. Don't do it. Listen, we have a book coming out on covenant theology next year and read it before you make that decision.

oh, don't worry. I'm dispensational. So I have a joke. I always tell them that, uh, like, so why don't you baptize your babies?

I'm like, ah, my dispensationalism keeps me safe. Yeah. No more.

Uh, I don't, I don't have to worry about all the covenant theology. You guys, that's all you guys really want to be reformed.

You should baptize your babies. no, no, no. You see, here's the difference.

Here's the difference is it's because, uh, um, the deal is, is they think reforming stopped with them, right?

The Baptist, the particular Baptist, we kept reforming. We kept going to the, we still are.

Hey, and we definitely see their view of covenant theology is false. Is what we dispensationalists live by.

Well, we're just continuing on. You hear this? Well, again, so, so, well,

I don't want to give up away everything, but we plan on doing our life. We like, there's some edits that need to be made in the 1689 and I will be the first to say it.

Yeah. We've been heavy in discussion about that. Yeah. So we're, we're all in agreement.

Yeah. So like, I hold my Bible here. I hope my 1689, like right here.

I need one of those. I need one of those rebinds, Jeff. Oh man, you know, I bought one of my, we, we have, we have like an intern pastor every year.

So our, our pastor, uh, gets an intern in, and we actually bought him a post -Tenebrous

Lux from Levi's ESV and sent him off to his, uh, now that's real love. That is, that's awesome.

That's real love. So tell us about you before we get, I underlined all the dispensational verses for him before I gave it to him.

So it didn't have any underlines at all, right? It was blank. Wow. Wow.

So it was still on the box. Yeah. Tell us about you. Yeah. Where are you from? Uh, so I am from, originally from Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

Okay. So, um, when COVID hit, I don't know if you got, I'm sure you guys know like James Coates and Tim Stevens.

Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So I, uh, I used to attend Tim Stevens church.

Now I attend, we moved down about two and a half hours South to a small town, uh, uh,

Lethbridge. So that's where we live. Uh, I am a, I'm a father, husband.

I got five kids. My oldest is eight. My youngest is two. Had to think about that for a second.

Yeah, no, I get it. Um, I'm a, like I said, I'd be a bad Presbyterian.

Like they got all the kids like down to a, to a T but, uh, yeah, no,

I'm, uh, and I'm 34, just about to turn 35. I do. Uh, funny enough, what got me into your podcast watching is when you played that song last time.

And I found out you're a rapper. Cause I actually, And Christian hip hop myself. Oh yeah. Well, we need to do something together.

Well, we could definitely, we could definitely talk about it. I work with, uh, I, I think I told you wrath and grace.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, no wrath of grace. Yeah. When I was 14, I signed with a slit your wrist production.

It was an underground label. And, and I was on there with a bunch of grown man. All of them were suicidal.

I was faking it, you know, just underground production. Cause you wind up with slit wrists.

You wind up six feet underground. Joshua. So, so do you know, uh,

Johan? Very well. Yeah. Uh, a couple of months ago. Have you, have you ever met

Dana Willie? Uh, yep. I haven't met him, but, uh, like I, I've done a bunch of work for like, and our work for wrath and grace.

So like I heard in a Willie's project. Oh yeah. Like before most people he's really, really talented.

Yeah. He, he wrote all that stuff at my house. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I, I was,

I was absolutely amazed when I look at people like him and, uh, um, Jeff and, and when they do these, he just sits down, they just sit down and just wrap, wrap this out and, and then come up with beats.

And I just think it's amazing. Yeah. I couldn't rap. He was actually on, like he, he was a, he was a background vocalist, but I did a, uh,

I did a song called open the doors and all the churches closed. He actually sang the last hook with me on that track.

So, you know, Dana, Dana is very, very talented. Oh yeah. Yeah. I went to Vegas with him and his wife, me and my, my wife works for his wife.

Yeah. uh, in accounting and everything, but yeah, anyways. So, so how long have you, uh, uh, been, um, following the

Lord? And, and were you always a dispensationalist or, uh, I didn't get raptured.

I think he did got taken out. No, we all are still here.

So he's, he's still here. I have a feeling if it does happen, they're going to leave me.

He's only me here. I caused too much trouble. Um, what was

I saying? Look up, no, no, uh, look up something. We're that John Hagee thing.

Well, how does he say it? Oh man, look up, pack up. We're going to look up.

I got, I got my rapture helmet on. I can't remember. I used to be, look, man, we, we, we hate

John Hagee just as much as you guys. Like it's not, it's not even fair. So, so here's what

I'll tell you. Like, uh, I grew up, my dad, um, I grew up in a, in a household like basic charismatic church.

Um, I, I would say I became a Christian when I was 21.

So I've been a Christian for about 14, 13, 14 years now. Uh, I used to play tricks on my brothers, like, and my parents,

I used to like lay clothes in the middle of my floor and then like, try to like get them to come up and, and make them think the rapture happened.

But I was so terrified because my grandma made me watch all these terrible rapture movies when I was a kid.

My brothers. And, um, what I did is we would all be like laying on my parents' bed watching a movie.

My brother would be at the foot of the bed and I put my feet on his back just in case, like I passed out and he got raptured, my feet would drop and I'd know the rapture happened.

Like I was that terrified. Yeah. I hear you, man.

Yeah. My first exposure to it was the left behind movies.

and I listen, I still, I love those movies. I watch more in time, dispensational stuff, probably the 90 % of the dispensational ones.

All right. I mean, like, I love listening to you watch. That's the question.

So I'll watch them all. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. So I, I love listening to the rapture dreams that be having it because I've had wrapped what

I would, what I would probably call a rapture dreams. Right. You know, um, like, like there was this dream that I had, um,

I'll go ahead and, you know, well, well, there's several, but, but, but this one's really good. So I was, um,

I was rolling over in my bed and I had my arm out like this and I was going to, I was rolling over and all of a sudden when my arm was here, all of a sudden

I was in a barn and, and I was looking on the, it was, you know, the ground was kind of dark wood and there was hay and stubble on the ground.

And I looked up in front of me and there was a man standing in front of me and brown rags had brown hair. Now I'm not saying it was

Jesus, right? If it was Jesus, he humbled himself. Okay. And he was just staring at me.

And then I was thinking to myself, I was like, what's this fricking guy staring at? Like I was thinking, does he want some, you know?

And all of a sudden he points over my left shoulder and I turn around and there was, and there was earth.

Like it wasn't flat. It was round. It was earth inside the barn. Right. I mean, in all of its glory, it was beautiful.

It's probably about that big around. It was so beautiful. You know, in hindsight, I didn't think it was beautiful in the dream.

And I looked at it. It was the earth floating inside the barn. And I turned around and looked at him. I said, it's earth.

And then he points at it again. And I turn around and look at it and whites, like radiant lights started to appear all over the earth.

And I turned back and looked at him. I said, there are lights. So what? And then he says, look again.

And I turn around completely this time. And I'm looking at it and he walks up behind me. He puts his hand on my, his left hand on my left shoulder.

His face was right here. And those lights started to disappear. And he said to me, he says, the lights are leaving the earth.

You must tell everyone. And then as I go to turn around, he was already back in the position that he was probably six, seven, eight foot in front of me.

And I was thinking to myself, how, and all of a sudden my brother comes and grabs my hand.

My brother recently died six years ago. From a heroin overdose.

He grabs my hand as if him and I are going to do it together. And then the guy tells us to sit down on earth.

And so we're kind of like backing up and kind of like going and sit down and hesitate. And you know what I'm saying? And then finally we sit down and we're falling from space to earth and earth.

It was like, we're skydiving. I can see clouds flying by my head. And all of a sudden I land back in my bed and my arm was still stretched out.

And I was thought, Oh my Lord, the rapture is about to happen. And I got to tell people.

and I went on a mission, like, listen to me, dude, I went on a mission. Now I have an interpretation of what

I think it means now, but I won't get into it. Well, okay. I will. I kind of feel like it's, it was, you know, now in hindsight with my theology now,

I feel like it's speaking about, because in revelation chapter one, it says the churches are the lamp stands.

We are the light. And instead of the lights leaving the earth in a rapture, I really, because I truly believe,

I believe that God can speak to me. And so I, I would say that it's more so saying that, and this is where my print, my post -meal friends will come at me is that the church is leaving the world, not in a way of rapture, but in a way that the church has been exposed for not truly being the church.

And so I believe that the real church will rise up. And we've seen this in COVID, right? COVID exposed a lot of churches and a lot of churches closed down because they wasn't,

I would say truly the church, but I won't go no further into that interpretation, but I've had,

I've had a bunch of dreams like that. Well, I didn't know you were charismatic, Jeff. Well, I was originally ordained.

Oh, I did know that you mentioned that last, that last time. He's assemblies of God, 1689.

That's what, that's how he rolls, man. Yeah. I mean, I can tell you some stuff right now.

And like the people in my church would probably stop coming. Hey Jeff, you went a little too far, brother.

Josh, could I ask you something before you, you give your reasoning or, a defense on why you believe in dispensational.

What convicted you convinced you or whatnot? Let me ask you this before you get started.

Are you sensationalist? Cessationist. Cessationist. I got no front teeth.

I'm sorry. Yeah. You're not. And I just finished watching the cessationist movie as well.

Was it good? I'm not a cessationist. You're a continuationist.

I am, but like very. With seatbelts. Very qualified.

We'll say. Okay. Did you watch ours last week? What'd you think about my interpretation of it?

I didn't actually see what you, what you thought of it. What are you doing with your life?

Man, I got five kids. I've barely got time to do this. I can hear my kids upstairs.

I'm just waiting for my wife to come downstairs and be like. No, the movie was really, it was interesting.

They did a really good job. The cinematography was really well done. David, you know,

Dave lovey or whatever his name is. Like the guy who did it. Like he wrote it.

Yeah. Claude. Claude. Claude Ramsey interviewed him. I think. I don't think

Dave was actually in the film. He just wrote. He was the voice behind everything when there was no interview. Yeah.

Yeah. But he reached out to me a couple months ago. Cause I released a project and he asked me to do a song for it.

And I actually declined. And I was like, I can't in good conscience do a song for it.

And then he spent. Like a couple days on the phone with me trying to convince me of this nation ism.

And I'm like, look, man, I was a cessationist for a long time. Like I grew up in a charismatic church.

I, I grew up seeing all the abuses. I listened to MacArthur. Loved strange fire.

You know, was, was a cessationist for a number of years and. I just kind of swung back a bit to the middle and.

I'm like, yeah, I'm not, not fully convinced. I will say like, I don't believe in, in apostles and prophets anymore.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's. That is a form of cessationism.

Yeah. It is a form of it. But so, so for instance, like in the film, there's a part in there.

I can't remember who was being interviewed, but according to him, I'm not a Protestant because I'm not a cessationist.

So I was just like, okay, well, that's weird. Yeah. It was an interesting statement. He's like, yeah, if you're a cessationist or you're a continuationist, you are not a

Protestant. And I was like, okay, well, that's a, that's a bold claim.

And then I didn't really see anything to back it up, but. It is what it is.

For me, I would also be convinced like, I don't think tongues is ecstatic gibberish.

I believe it's languages, the ability to speak in language you've never learned. I just believe that God can impart that gift on somebody if he chooses to do it, which would agree with, except if you're

John MacArthur and he would say God would never do that. So I'm just not willing to say

God wouldn't do it. Right. I can respect that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And as far as like healings, the other big one, I'm still trying to sort through, like, obviously

I, I would struggle with the idea. do you believe that there's a, like a, a man has that gift?

Well, I was just going to say, like, I struggle with the, with the idea that someone would have the gift of healing.

So to speak, you're sounding more and more like, like a nationalist every time. Really? In reality, it's like, all it is really is the tongues thing.

And I believe that, like, I do believe that. You need to go listen to last week's message.

I mean, the last week's thing. Send me a link. All right. Send it to my, send it to my,

DM it to me. All right. So let's get on the subject. Dispensate times again.

Now, come on now. And like, like you got to admit in the dispensational camp twice a year,

Pentecost and the feast of trumpets. The tabernacles.

Oh yeah. Yes. No. Yeah. The feast of tabernacles. No, it's trumpets, right? It's both of them.

Yeah. I mean, they're so close together. I think it's the feast of trumpets. So, so anyways, at least twice a year, because Israel was, was made a nation 1948.

All right. And if you, so like, if you add it up, I think it's, it's from 1948 till 2030.

I think it is. How many years is that? 88. 88.

Okay. So they're saying that that is the, according to some kind of prophecy, given that a man's, that a generation can be 88 years.

All right. Now, if that's true, then a seven year tribulation in order for the seven year tribulation to be true, that it has to happen in the year 2023.

And so there, so, so, so right now, all these dispensationalists that I, that I know and listen to outside of MacArthur or something like that, the 15th, the 19th, which is today and the 23rd, they're saying the rapture is going to happen.

So, and so, but this is every year, like they make up some kind of thing every year to, to fit that narrative. And it's just like, it's last year.

We didn't consider leap years. And the year before that, we forgot that. Yeah. So, and here's what

I'll say. Like, when it comes to all this stuff, so when I grew up, like I grew up, my dad was a dispensational.

He was obsessed with the rapture. We have like, I remember going to a Bible study group that he was in and like, they had this bad habit of like thinking there are only two books in the

Bible, the book of revelation and the book of Daniel, Daniel, the mid study, the book of revelation.

And then I was like, Oh, where are we going next? Like, Oh, we're going back to Daniel. I'm like, you know that there's 64 other books in the

Bible, right? Like there's tons of them. We can study other books. Right. But, uh,

I, I would say the second that I hear a dispensational even begin to sound like he's date setting.

I just write them off. Now, would you say that dispensationalism their foundation is eschatology?

Uh, no, I think dispensationalism much like covenant theology is a way that we, we put together the cannon as a whole and we look at it.

So dispensationalism, why I became convinced of dispensationalism primarily is, um,

MacArthur. Nope. Not at all. I think he's actually a pretty bad dispensational.

He is leaky, but there's, um, so, so you guys know wrath and grace.

Have you ever heard of Omri miles Omri? He's you've heard of Shilin I'm assuming.

Oh yeah. So if you listen to Shilin's albums, like the attributes of God, Omri did a verse for the omnis.

He did a verse on lyrical theology, volume one, uh, for the song called take up and read.

And he is a really, he's a good friend of mine. And basically when

I came on to wrath and grace, like started working with him, I connected most with him. Now I was at the time really like I, I was in a 1644,

I guess you might say London Baptist. First London. Yeah. They didn't, they didn't really like the 1689, but I was leaning more 1689 studying the confession, going through all of that.

And he began to challenge me on hermeneutics. And so I studied hermeneutics.

I looked at everything that he gave me. I remember he sent me this pastor named John Anderson. You preached a, like a lesson called the dangers of theological interpretation.

And he did part one with looking at historical theology and letting that be a determiner for how we interpret the scriptures.

And then second party did theological interpretation. And he dealt largely with like Vern Poythress.

Uh, you got guys like Graham Goldsworthy at the time I was reading Goldsworthy on hermeneutics, uh, his book, according to plan,

I've read Poythress is understanding dispensational. Um, but basically like I listened to this guy,

I took real issue with him. And then as I started looking at a lot of his view and particularly in how he looked at Luther, uh, because obviously

I'm sure you guys are pastors, you know, like the difference between tradition one, tradition two, and then like what we'd call tradition zero, which people would call solo scriptura today, which

I'm a firm believer in, by the way. So solo scriptura.

Yeah. I know it's used as a pejorative term, but if you're ever interested, uh, there's a dispensational guy named

Peter Gaiman. He just, uh, he has the Bible sojourner podcast and he just critiqued, uh, who are those guys?

Theo cast. Yeah. And we're talking about, they were basically railing against solo scriptura.

And he went into like looking at like, what do we mean when we say solo scriptura and what do they mean?

And it's often painted as like, oh, it's just you and your Bible. We don't take into account anybody else.

That's, that's not actually true. We do take into account, but ultimately scripture, scripture has to bear the weight.

Yeah. So you're, so you're mentioning a lot of things and my, my gears are kind of like, I don't know which one to, you know, to shoot at.

So, so it was basically hermeneutics. It was studying hermeneutics. And then that led me down the road of eschatology because my pastors that I was sitting under and the pastor

I sit under now actually is all millennial. Um, so I remember hearing my pastor preach through Romans and once he hit

Romans nine to 11, I remember just thinking like, I have no idea why I disagree with him.

And then I studied eschatology. And I was like, Oh, that's why. So do you believe that there's two peoples of God?

No. All right. So do you believe that when Jesus raptures the church and he, and he's saying he begins the thousand year reign, then he's going to focus on the

Jews. What do you mean focus on the Jews? Like his ministry to the

Jews that because they rejected him, a dispensation took place to where he now went to the

Gentiles. And so when the church is rapture, then his attention will be placed back on the

Jews for that thousand years. I think scripture says his attention is going to be based, like it's going to be placed on everybody, but there's going to be a distinct purpose for the

Jews. What is that purpose? So in Jews, in Jews, you mean

Israel? Yeah. We're talking about physical descendants of Abraham.

Yes. Physical descendants of Abraham. So basically how I would get there just to like, give a really easy thing.

That's often viewed as probably, and I can hear my wife coming down the stairs, but she takes you away.

That's fine. We'll set something up to where we can, you know, if we need to set something up in the future, that'd be fine.

But when you get off here, we're going to make fun of you. Okay. Yeah. They made fun of Jesus too.

It's all good. And again, it's all in fun. I know. I'm just going to text her.

Just saying this on a call. So the big, big problematic to just jump in the weeds would be

Ezekiel 40 to 48. Speaks very typically of a future temple. That's going to be built.

So now we're left with a problem. Cause often what I hear as well, the book of Hebrews, like it talks about how those are types and shadows.

They're fulfilled in Christ. It's been done away with. I would say that when we look at Ezekiel, like on a hermeneutical basis, the original author, which was

Ezekiel and God, because we believe scripture is given by God and man, The author, like how we determine the meaning is authorial intent.

So Ezekiel himself knew what he was, knew what he was writing. And he was describing a temple that has yet to be built.

That temple is like, if you look at the measurements, it's massive. It physically cannot fit in Israel right now.

That's why we believe that it has to come in the future after the tribulation period, because there's going to be massive topograph topographical changes.

Basically landscape changes. Jesus is going to return, split the Mount of Olives, or there's differing views on which mountain he's going to split, like whatever, where he's going to return.

Zacharias is the Mount of Olives, the same Mount that he was on when he was teaching. Yeah. The which

I think that that's when he split the Mount of Olives, in my personal opinion. So, so you don't see that Jesus himself being the temple and the church himself in the temple, as Jesus professed himself to be the temple.

And Paul professed to the church was the temple of the living God, that that wasn't what

Ezekiel was speaking about. No, because as a dispensational, like I believe that the church came into existence in Acts two.

So it's a mystery that's revealed according to Ephesians two and Ephesians three. So it wasn't revealed in the

Old Testament. So the church has distinctly Jew and Gentile and one new man being formed.

It was formed in the New Testament. So Abraham, a part of the church. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Go ahead, Brian. I'm sorry. You get me going. no, no. Yeah. That's a fine question. I'll ask my question next.

Go ahead and answer that one. Yeah. What I heard was, is Abraham a part of the church?

Yeah. Was Abraham a part of that? Do you think he is? Do I think he is? Or do I think he was, do you think he is?

Uh, that's a good question. I think given the fact that he's the father of all who have faith, according to Romans four, uh, our view is that in order for Christianity to be true,

Christianity has to be owed the same way Abraham was saved is the same way that you and I are saved.

Abraham looked forward to a promise seed that would come forth from him, passed through Isaac to Judah to, um, uh, to David.

So you see what I'm saying? And, and, and so, uh, Abraham believed and was counted righteous.

When you and I believe we are counted as righteous, the same as Abraham. Yeah. And that gospel was preached to Abraham according to Galatians chapter three, because God foresaw the

Gentiles come into faith. Yep. And I would say that, um, so this kind of gets into one of the issues right away is most times people accuse dispensationals of believing in multiple ways of salvation, uh, which

I would say that, I mean, you could read Schofield in a way that may lend it.

Like he made some unguarded statements, but most of the time when you read like scholarly dispensationals, they, they take great pains to go through and correct the misapprehensions of, of what he said.

So he, I'm trying to remember what note it was, uh, in his

Schofield reference Bible. I can't remember exactly, but basically like we believe that the object of faith in the old

Testament was the coming Messiah. So if you've ever, have you ever looked at, um, continuity and discontinuity, we're writing a book about it.

What? We're writing a book about it. But, but have you ever looked at, have you ever looked at the book discontinuity and discontinuity by, uh, edited by Feinberg?

And it's basically a debate note between, uh, dispensational and covenant theologians on a lot of these issues.

And so one of the things that Feinberg states is, is the object of faith, uh, doesn't change.

Like it's ultimately the Messiah. It's the Christ, but it's not in the old

Testament. It's not Jesus of Nazareth because that was not revealed in the old

Testament, but it was the coming Messiah, the seat of David. So what was the object of, of, of their faith?

Are you talking about like the Presbyterians would hold to like, uh, the, like the, uh, the sacrifices and stuff like that?

No. So I believe that they recognize that those sacrifices could never take away sin. They simply pointed to the one who would bear the sin, the

Messiah. Well, well, it did in one sense, according to Hebrews, but it was, it was to the flesh.

It had nothing to do with eternal life. Yeah. So it was her life has always been faith in the promise seed.

Yeah. So looking at the law, uh, the law, like when you read, for instance, like Romans three, there's none righteous.

No, not one yet. You read Luke one and it talks about, uh, was it

Elizabeth and her husband? It says they were blameless as regards to the law. Yeah. Right.

So there's this reference to the fact that they were blameless as regards to the law. So they were righteous

Jews in the sense of they strove to keep the law. They strive to obey it.

Now they were never justified by their works. Nobody's ever justified by their works, but we do see blessing.

A lot of times tied to obedience in the old Testament, in the law, they were booted out of the land because they didn't obey the law.

Right? So God commands them to keep the law. They couldn't do it in Deuteronomy.

Moses says like, when you disobey, you are going to be cast out of the land. He doesn't speak of it as a hypothetical.

He says, this is going to happen. So basically that provision is always there.

So it's in reference to the coming Messiah who is going to come in the future.

And if you look in like, for instance, first Peter one, and you look at verse 10 to 12, it says as to this salvation, and sorry,

I don't, I don't have my LSB. I just have my NASB on. Oh, look at you. I know. I know. But it says as to this salvation, which again, if you look right before it's, it's discussing, uh, what chapter again?

I'm sorry. Chapter one. First Peter. Okay. Yeah. First Peter one.

So if you, you look, uh, versus three to nine, speak about like how we as believers, um, you know, we have this inheritance.

It's imperishable, undefiled, not fade away. It's reserved in heaven for you, protected by the power of God. Uh, so it's speaking of this salvation, this ultimate glorification.

That we have to look forward to. And then it speaks of, uh, you know, the proof of your faith being more precious than gold, which is perishable, even though tested by fire may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Though you've seen him, though you have not seen him, you love him, though you do not see him now, but believe in him. You greatly rejoice with joy, inexpressible, full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your soul.

So it speaks to salvation in a future sense. Then it says as to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the spirit of Christ within them was indicating, as he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you in these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preach the gospel to you by the

Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. So when

I read this, they know a lot of things, right? So we can go down the list. So this salvation, they know it's in regards to salvation.

The prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, so it's future tense from the prophets point of view, made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the spirit of Christ within them was indicating, as he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

They knew Christ would suffer first and they knew that glories would follow afterwards.

It says right here, like Peter says, the prophets in the Old Testament knew that. So this is why it's really amazing when

Christ comes and they're expecting him to set up a kingdom, which

I don't think they were wrong in their expectation, but they were wrong on the timeline because even the prophets of the

Old Testament knew he had to suffer first and then subsequent glory. They also knew that it was the spirit of Christ within them that was predicting these things.

So they knew that it was the spirit of the Messiah that would come. They just didn't know the person or the time.

And depending on which scholar you read, you can read like Walter Kaiser, for instance, he would flatten that to just the person, not even the time.

I believe that's he flattens it and makes it one, which to me, I view it as two.

He doesn't know the person, Jesus of Nazareth or the time. An argument could be made that they know the time because you can go to Luke's account of the gospel and see that...

Yeah, Daniel tells them of the time. Yeah, so you can go to Matthew as well and see that when

Herod went to go kill him, that there were wise men and they all knew. But not all the prophets knew about it, right?

An Old Testament prophet basically was given... I'm going to let one of the other guys talk and just forgive me.

Old Testament prophets had two jobs. They prophesied the coming Messiah and a future judgment on those that didn't repent.

And all of them done the same thing. They prophesied a coming Messiah and a judgment if they don't repent.

John the Baptist, the coming Messiah and the judgment if you don't repent. The ax is at the root of the tree. Brayden, I know you got something you want to say, brother.

Yeah, there are several questions. What was the reason that you went to 1 Peter 1 .10

just out of curiosity? What were you trying to... I got lost in what you were trying to say with that being tied to dispensationalism.

So basically, just because Jeff had brought up a point that I may have been wrong in how he...

What was insinuated, but a lot of people tend to think that dispensationalists believe in multiple ways of salvation.

Like there have been certain dispensationalists that make unguarded statements. And I'm saying...

A lot of them do. I'm not saying you do. Which there are several. Yeah, no.

Who's asking that question? Because there are some dispensationalists that when I... I would definitely say that they are...

I assume that you would too. It's typically, from my experience, the 60 -year -old, 70 -year -old people that are carrying around a school of study.

Sure. Brayden, you're breaking up, brother.

Brayden, you're breaking up. Yeah. You need to get indoors. I do agree that, again, some of them have made unguarded statements.

But I would say at the same time, if anybody... For instance, if you look at some good modern dispensationalists who aren't progressive dispensationalists.

Like Michael Vlock is a revised dispensationalist, so to speak. So he's not classical dispensationalist.

I would actually say classical dispensationalism borders on heresy. Right. Because they believe that, like, again, they believe that there's two people of God.

They distinguish between the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, which revised dispensationalists do not recognize a distinction there.

They see that Matthew used the terms interchangeably. So the same hope that the

Jews have is the same hope we have. But about that... Can I ask a quick question?

I don't know if I'm going to be able to get through. I might lose you guys. So I just want to ask this real fast. So in regard to the church in the

Old Testament, what would be your answer to Hebrews 2, verse 12? It uses the word ecclesia, which is the gathering people in the

Old Testament, the church in the Old Testament prior to Acts.

And I think using the analogy of faith and using the New Testament to interpret what the

New Testament is, and use that actually for 1 Peter chapter 1, 10, that you referred to, 1

Peter chapter 2, verse 12... Yeah, we're losing you, bro. We didn't hear nothing you said,

Braden. So I think I get the gist, though. So he mentioned Hebrews 2, 12. And that passage is quoting an

Old Testament passage, Psalm 22, 22, saying, I will proclaim your name to my brethren in the midst of the congregation.

I will sing your praise. So I would say that I don't mean to come across as offensive at all, but D .A.

Carson, in his book, Exegetical Fallacies, kind of deals with the danger of taking one word and trying to read that back somewhere and give it a meaning.

So right here... So we would probably interpret the book of Hebrews a little bit differently.

Well, maybe not, because you guys would believe that it's written to Hebrews. Correct. Jewish audience, right?

Right. Well, I think that when we look at it, first of all, I don't believe, again, as a dispensational,

I don't believe that the church existed in the Old Testament. And I think that using the word congregation doesn't necessarily denote the meaning church.

What do you do with Chapter 3 where it talks about the house of Moses? Let me pull it up real quick.

Chapter 3. Yeah, I mean, it's the same house.

It's the same house. So it's the same house. By someone, but the builder of all things is

God. Now Moses was faithful in all his house as a servant for a testimony of those things, which were to be spoken later.

But Christ was faithful as a son over his house, whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence in the boast of our hope until the end.

So Christianity, in one sense, should just be the new covenant kingdom people.

So you have the earthly kingdom people, which I would say are the physical descendants of Abraham. And the spiritual descendants of Abraham are the new covenant people.

Jesus didn't come to establish a new religion. He came to bring in the new covenant, which were being built up by the

Jews. The dividing wall of hostility was torn down so that the

Jew and the Gentile can become one new man in Christ.

Yes. There is no two separate plants. In order for someone to be

God's child, they have to be a follower, believer and follower of Jesus Christ.

And so it just doesn't make any sense for Jesus to rapture the church, take the church off of the earth, then come and do something unique for the

Jews that's outside of what was already done. For the same way that Abraham is saved is the same way that you and I are saved.

And it's by faith in Jesus Christ. Could I chime in here for a second?

Oh, I'm sorry. He probably doesn't have to go. It's all right. We can do this another time as well.

This is my daughter, Temperance. Can you say hi? Hi. Hi, Temperance. And my son,

Knox. Oh, Knox. How are you? I love my Reformers.

All right. You guys got to go upstairs and brush your teeth. Okay. I'll be up to pray in a little bit. Okay. I had a couple quick questions.

I've been listening in and everything. I just... Close the door. Now, do you believe when

Jesus said that... Close the door. Hey, go with your mom.

Close the door. Thank you. Sorry. Go ahead. I love kids. Not as much as Presbyterians.

That's okay. I'm kidding. That's what they say. I'm joking. I'm kidding.

I always say... I joke around and tell them, I'm like, you know, you guys don't love kids as much as we do because we don't lie to them.

Yeah, we don't steal from them. They're still on their baptism. We don't tell them that they're covenant members. So getting to the question and maybe a statement,

I don't know. I'm going to just roll with it. So what would you say... Well, okay.

Well, Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour of when he shall return.

Do you believe that is talking about the secret rapture or the second coming? I believe that it would probably be...

It'd probably be the rapture. So, I mean, but again...

I believe he's talking about 78 day, but that's just me. No, no. You fit in really well as a postman.

No, I'm just biblical, you know. So dispensational then.

No, no. Because what I'm saying is I think the heart of the argument, and I keep trying to bring it here, but it keeps getting deterred, is the two peoples, right?

If God only has one people, right? He doesn't have a bride and a side chick. He's not a pimp.

If God has one people, then this one people is united in Christ. And that means he's not going to rapture his people to focus his attention on a different people.

Like that cannot take place. Or you're saying that God has a bride and a side chick.

I don't think so. I think that's a bit of a caricature. Because again, dispensation...

Crack the egg for me. Yeah, yeah. So I would say that we believe in one people of God.

But what's often quoted... So you're referring to Galatians 3 a lot, right? You're going there.

You're talking about the faith of Abraham. Galatians is absolutely one of my favorite books.

Galatians 3 tears down a lot. It tears down theonomy. It tears down a whole lot of things.

I fully agree. It does. Dispensationalism as well. I just had this conversation with my pastor in his office earlier this week.

And basically he brought up Galatians 3. And one thing I would say, like as a Reformed person...

So you believe that there's no Jew nor Greek. There's no male or female. There's no slave. In Christ. In Christ.

Yeah, meaning there's no hierarchy. Like I'm not better than you. So it's speaking of justification.

Like basically we're all justified the same way. In Christ. We're justified repentance and faith.

In Christ. In the Messiah. Hi, Braden. Hi. I'm back.

I just missed every part of the conversation. Are you sure you're back? I have to stand in this one position.

If I take a step left or right, I will lose connection. And I have to stand too.

I can't sit. Yeah. So we're justified in Christ. But one thing that I often raise with covenantal people who bring this up is...

Particularly Reformed people. Paul doesn't allow a woman to preach. There's no male or female.

No Jew or Greek. Why can't a woman preach? No, no, no. I mean, we're given roles. Now, that's a caricature, all right?

No, no, no. Because... Because we're being biblical. Because you got to learn how to know the role, right?

Like I don't birth children. My wife births children. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. But at the same time, in Christ, there is no distinction.

I'm not closer to Christ than she is just because I'm a man. Where I want to tie this to, though, really quickly is there are distinctions in roles.

But there's also distinctions in ethnicities. Like, I'm a white German guy, right?

I'm not an African American. When I go to heaven, I'm white. Like, I'm still going to be white.

You're still going to be a white guy. So, I'm not an African. Now, do they lose the fact that they're

African when they're in heaven? Or do they maintain those ethnic distinctions? I would say, though, that the role of the genital testament...

I don't think a black person... I might have missed this part of this. So... It's all good. I can't...

I'm lagging. Go ahead, Jeff. I mean, personally, I don't think, you know, like... You know, because I grew up in black neighborhoods and went to all black schools and stuff.

And all my black friends were never in Africa. Right? And so,

I think they're black Americans. And, you know, like, I don't... Like, my lineage has come somewhere, right?

But I don't call my... You know, like, let's say I'm a Scotsman or whatever. You know? I don't really know.

I had no ancestry or anything like that. But, you know, I'm so far removed from that.

I wouldn't say that I'm a Scottish American. I'm an American. This is all I know. And when I'm in heaven,

I'm not going to be claiming America. Now, the pigment of my skin might look the same.

You know? But my identity is not in my skin color. My identity is not in my ethnicity.

My identity is in Christ. I'm an ex -gangbanger, right? There's no such thing as a gangbanging

Christian. But that doesn't mean you lose ethnic distinction. When you come to Revelation 7, and you see before the throne that there's people from every tribe, tongue, and nation that are ransomed, and we see still...

So, tribe, tongue, and nation. So, there's still national distinctions that are...

But in Christ, we're all one man. One man. Can I say something? I have a day in dying to say something.

All right? Are you going to take us on a different route? No. Because I think this is the argument right here. Okay. But don't we see that in church all the time?

What do you mean? Well, you know, I go to church, and I see all different shades.

And we're all worshiping Christ. And, you know, I see that already happening.

But the question I have... I was trying to go down, and everybody went everywhere else.

The question I'm asking is... So, just a couple questions.

Did Paul have the Spirit of God within him? Of course.

Okay. Did Peter? Of course. Okay. Of course. Right? Now, did

Paul or Peter go and argue in the synagogues or to the

Jews at all about the rapture or the resurrection? The resurrection.

It was the resurrection, right? Sure. Yeah. So, okay. I'm just asking that.

So, if the main focus was on the resurrection, the resurrection of the dead, and Paul was arguing on it because you had the

Sadducees that didn't believe in the resurrection, and you had two different types, one that believed in the resurrection and one that did not believe in the resurrection.

I don't see anywhere in the Scripture where they were arguing on a rapture of any kind.

But it was always an argument on the resurrection. Now, if they had the Spirit of God in them, and they had more insight, because remember, 2

Peter says that some of these things that Paul is saying, it's hard to understand, but people, they take it and they twist it and stuff like that.

But he was very direct. And he had, especially

John, the closest to Christ, and he never, not once, ever talked about the rapture.

In fact, when you go to Revelation. Revelations. You know, when you go to Revelation.

Yeah, that was so funny. We've been making a lot of people mad over that stuff.

Oh, yeah, dude. I got people calling me going, you know, it's Revelation, right? And I'm like, it's a joke.

Next thing you're going to tell me to turn to Psalms 51. Yeah. I think the main thing, which

I know we started this discussion. Wait, I want to hear Habs finish. I want to hear him finish. Okay, go ahead,

Habs. Go ahead. Finish your point. No, I'm just asking, where is the,

I mean, where is it? He disappeared. Oh, he left again. So, now, this is kind of what

I would say. There are passages that I'm sure you know dispensationalists go to try to prove a rapture.

No, I believe there's a rapture. Yeah, yeah. So, you're talking about a pre -tribulational rapture, like essentially is what you're getting at.

Yeah. Like where the church is taken. Yeah. So, obviously, I would go to 1

Thessalonians 4, 13 to 18, specifically. The argument from silence, like I always rail against, you know,

Presbyterians for their good and necessary inference. So, I don't make the Revelation 3 argument that, you know, you're going to be saved out of the world.

And, you know, there's no church in Revelation. Yeah, because, I mean, it appears in Chapter 11.

Sure. But, I mean, obviously, so as an all -millennial, you would read

Revelation as a recapitulating book all throughout. Well, not, well, it depends because I am also a fairly hardcore preterist, partial preterist.

Yeah. Chapter 1 tells you how to interpret Revelation. Write what was past, write what is present tense, our past, and write what will be his future.

And some of that could be our past. And so, I use that as my interpretive grid. Yeah. Like, I understand the framework.

But, ultimately, so what I would look to is, again, 1 Thessalonians 4. Paul is in Thessalonica for three

Sabbaths. He doesn't get a chance to teach on eschatology. And then he comes to 1

Thessalonians 4. We don't want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep so that you'll not grieve, as do the rest that have no hope.

Then he lays out the case for, basically, the rapture, which we would all agree that is about the rapture to some degree or another.

Yes. So, ultimately, for me, I'm just trying to think here.

I just thought it was the first. I mean the first to rise are the dead in Christ.

And then those that are left upon the earth will be gathered together with Christ in the air.

Yeah, there is a thousand -year period where Christ comes, establishes a kingdom reign.

The third temple is built. You see what I'm saying? Like none of that's in there.

Well, I think it is. Not in 1 Thessalonians 4. But when you read, like,

Revelation 20, you read Isaiah 2, you read Isaiah 65, you read

Zechariah 6. Okay, but when was Satan bound? Or is Satan bound?

Because Hebrews 2 seems to say that he's already been bound. Because through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, he stripped

Satan of his power of death. Yeah. So what verse?

Matthew 12 isn't strong man bound. Okay. I heard Brighton say something.

I couldn't make it out. So the strong man bound, that's in Matthew. My question on that regard, if you want to take that interpretation, that that's referencing that.

When was Satan bound, specifically? Whenever Jesus bruised his head.

So it would be the crucifixion, or is it the birth? No, the crucifixion. Crucifixion.

That's whenever the inauguration of the covenant, the new covenant.

He bruises the head of the serpent while only bruising his heel. And in that, Hebrews tells us that he removes the power of death from Satan.

And that was says that that's what Revelation 20 is speaking about that keeps him from deceiving the nation, the nations in Revelation.

And that power of death is referenced in 1 Corinthians 15 too. Yeah, 1 Corinthians 15.

So obviously as a dispensational, I would see a gap 1 Corinthians 15, 24 and 25.

And then you go to 55 to the end. But ultimately. So would you see a gap in Daniel 70 weeks?

Well, I think we should set up some kind of a friendly debate. Because so many things are being brought up and we're not staying on one subject.

And it's actually stabbing a knife into my heart.

This is the topic I like though. The blinding of Satan in particular. So Revelation 20 is very specific.

The purpose clause there is that he can't deceive the nations any longer. So I mean,

I would just look around and say, is he not deceiving the nations now? Like particularly in what we're dealing with?

Can I answer that? Can I answer that? I don't know if I'm moving on. We'll say 2

Corinthians 4, 4. We might all disagree on this, but Brayden, please answer. So Revelation 20 says that he's going to be bound.

And then at the end of the thousand years, he's going to be released. And so the binding of Satan in Revelation 20 is not talking about salvation.

But rather that the church of Christ will never be taken away from this world by the evils of the devil. That he has been bound.

He's been curtailed from being able to destroy the bride of Christ. And so in my opinion, when

I read Revelation 20, when he's been bound, that he can no longer deceive the nations means that he will never raise the nations up.

Like how in the Old Testament, it was oftentimes that the Old Testament Jews looked like they were going to be destroyed.

The bride of Christ will never experience that until he's about to come again. And that's when Satan will be released. And right prior to that, that is when

Christ comes again. Where is Satan bound? He's bound from being able to do that.

Where is he bound? It says he's bound in a specific place. But it also talks about an angel carrying a chain and a key.

Do you believe that a spirit can be chained by a harbor freight chain? I know those are obviously symbolic.

And so when it talks about an abyss, it means it's endless. Satan cannot bring himself out of that until it's

God's timing for him to persecute the church to the degree that is in the future for him. So he's bound in that way.

It's just prophetic language that we see all throughout the book of Revelation, all throughout prophecy in the Old Testament and the

New Testament. When it talks about prophetic words, it's not a literal place that he's bound in that sense.

Yes, Satan is not a literal dragon that has seven heads, ten horns, seven heads with seven diadems.

Nor did Rome actually was a beast with seven heads, ten horns and ten diadems.

But you can break it down. And Rome was the city of seven hills. It had ten kings from Julius Caesar to Vespasius.

And it was in control of ten kingdoms. And I mean, you are... Oh God, sorry.

Satan is a being, right? Yeah, he's a being, a spiritual being.

An example of this is in Genesis 3. Oh, sorry. So I was going to say in Genesis 3, it talks about how

Satan is going to eat the dust of the earth for the rest of his life. He's going to be on his belly. Job says that Satan was walking around on the earth, but then he's also in this heavenly scene talking to God, right?

Jesus and Luke, I think it's chapter 17 when he sends out the apostles to go preach the gospel and heal the sick and the poor and all those kind of things.

He says he sees Satan falling out of the sky like lightning, right? So if you look at all those things and you took them truly as literal physical, those would be contradicted because Satan is in the air falling as lightning.

Well, then it means he wasn't on earth eating of the dust of the earth, right? So these are all symbols that are teaching us a theological truth that the prince of the world, which is

Satan, is being destroyed by the very gospel itself. And that is what Jeff is saying at the cross.

That's when he was pierced through, the death blow was given. Really quickly, just to answer,

I would probably reject the interpretation of Genesis 3. I agree that it's Satan, but it's also a serpent.

So I believe Satan inhabits a serpent. Well, the serpent was actually cursed, meaning that it went from whatever it was with legs to crawling on the belly.

But specifically when it spoke about the seed crushing, I mean, the head crushing seed that would come from the woman, it's speaking about Christ and it's actually speaking about Satan.

Yeah, the proto -evangelium. It ain't necessarily speaking that when he was on the cross, that serpent that Satan embodies, like Jesus didn't on that cross stomp him on the head.

But that serpent being still in a physical curse. But ultimately what I'm getting at though is when, okay, so you listed

Genesis 1, you listed the book of Job. Which all depicts

Satan in a different place and in a different manner. So all I'm trying to get at though is it's teaching us when you brought up the harmonetical principle of authorial intent, which

I totally agree with, is you have to ask, are these contradictions in the Bible? Or what was the author's intent by telling us that Satan was on the earth or Satan was in the air falling from the air?

Or Satan is being bound by a chain and is falling in an abyss that's endless. So he cannot destroy the truth.

Those are authorial intent answers that I would give to you just like how you brought up in a harmonious principle.

Well, what I'm saying is that Satan in Genesis doesn't have any bearing on Job when it says that Job is walking around the earth and then he's up in a heavenly scene.

And then in the gospels, when he's falling like lightning, that's a context totally divorced from the book of Job because it's in the future from where Job is.

So they don't contradict one another. But I would say that ultimately your interpretation of the abyss, like Satan is a being that is not omnipresent.

He can only be in one place at one time, whether you take the chains and the key as literal or not is irrelevant.

What do the chains and the key represent? They represent him being bound, but he's bound in a specific place, which is the abyss.

And if you look at that word, the funny thing is, is when Jesus cast all the demons. No, no.

But if you go back to the gospels, you see Jesus cast all the demons out of that person.

And they're like, how do you come to torture us before the time? Send us to the abyss.

Please don't send us to the abyss. Send us into the pigs. The demons recognize the abyss as a physical place that they don't want to go to before the time.

It is completely separate from the earth because they have no more power on the earth. That's the same thing here.

Satan has no power on the earth. He's not able to deceive the nations. That's the purpose clause.

And then if you look at 2nd Corinthians 4 .4, it actually contradicts. It's one of the reasons I could never accept amillennialism because it contradicts amillennialism, truth and nail.

When it says that if our gospel be veiled, it be veiled to those that the

God of this world is blinded. He's blinded in his mind. So he's blinded in his mind.

What makes up nations? People. So Satan is bound specifically at a locale where he's not able to deceive the nations.

2nd Corinthians 4 .4 says that he's currently blinding the minds of unbelievers. Unless you believe that that was just for the early church and that verse has no more bearing.

I missed your last just little last couple of seconds right there. Just breaking out. What did you say on the last section right there?

I just said that ultimately 2nd

Corinthians 4 .4 speaks of Satan's current mission right now to blind the minds of unbelievers.

And Revelation 20 says that when he's bound, he's not able to deceive the nations.

So you got it, which I'm not saying I'm not. I'm saying in Revelation 20, it's not talking about salvation.

It's talking about how the blinded eyes of 2nd Corinthians 4 cannot destroy the church ever.

It's not talking about salvation in Revelation 20, because if it was talking about salvation, when he's loose to deceive the nations again, that would insinuate that then therefore people could lose their salvation.

And so in Revelation 20, it's talking specifically about Satan not being able to destroy the bride of Christ.

Yeah, so 1st, I mean, 2nd Corinthians 4 .4, all this is speaking about is the parable that Jesus gave concerning the wheat and the tares and the seed that falls on beside the rocky path.

Those seeds, Satan comes and eats up. We're not denying that that still happens, but Satan cannot keep the gospel from going to Africa.

Cannot keep the gospel from going to China. Cannot keep the gospel from spreading. He cannot keep that mountain from Daniel 2, that stone cut out by no human hands that strikes a statue on its feet from growing into a mountain that covers the whole earth.

And that mountain is Jesus in his kingdom. Say again? But he could never do that.

But he did it before Christ. He did, because the Jews were harboring that to themselves.

And Jesus tells the Jews that you're of your father, the devil. You are to be a light of the nations, and the nations never came to Jerusalem.

The light came to Israel, Jesus, and they're now made a part of the true Israel. And so we're saying that...

I think you're conflating. I gotta go, guys. I feel like I'm... We're about to shut this down in six minutes because I'm trying to keep it in between an hour, an hour and a half.

But man, I would really like to get on here and just discuss one topic because I know we probably mentioned 20.

And if we can do all 20, that's great, but one topic at a time because I think we're going so fast between so many topics that nothing's really getting answered.

And me personally, I think if we can whittle down to the two peoples of God versus the one people of God and really hit that,

I think it's going to illuminate the rest of the position. But there's no disagreement there.

But I don't see how you can say that there isn't and still hold that view. Well, then maybe we can talk about how

I can... Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We can start somewhere because I would really like to walk through Daniel 9.

That's my chapter. See you, guys. I love you, guys. Well, man, it's been great having you on here.

Yeah, dude. Yeah, for real, man. And hopefully we can do something where you can come back on here and have a good time again.

Yeah. No, I appreciate you guys having me on. With eschatology and particularly with the systems of dispensationalism in covenant theology, a lot of times you just wind up talking past each other because there's a lot of...

Again, there's a lot of disagreement just in genuine or in general biblical interpretation.

For instance, again, the church thing. When you're like, oh, yeah, the church of the Old Testament. I'm like, well, we wouldn't see it as the church of the

Old Testament. We see a distinction between Israel and the church. We see, again, it'd be having to look at the prophecies that particularly even

Ezekiel 37 speaks of. Yeah, can I ask just a quick question real fast? What was...

You know what? I've been asking all these questions because I already know we're bringing you back on. And so I just,

I'm memorizing all this for a reason. But was... Can I ask you this?

Was John the Baptist a part of the church? No. John the

Baptist was not a part of the church. No, because a dispensational, we would hold that the church came into existence at Pentecost.

John was beheaded before Pentecost. See, this is where we get it mixed up because...

Yeah. Israel is the earthly kingdom people of God.

The physical descendants of Abraham. Now, you can be a physical descendant of Abraham and a spiritual descendant of Abraham.

You can be a spiritual descendant of Abraham and not be a physical descendant of Abraham. But you can also be a physical descendant of Abraham and not be a spiritual descendant of Abraham.

Not being spiritual. Yeah, according to Mark. Abraham all right, and it's broken down and it's a kingdoms and Jesus made mention that that John the

Baptist That the kingdom of God came with John the Baptist hmm The way

John the Baptist came so so when John the Baptist came he came in a time where the The penal law was in no more use right

Someone can break the penal law and deserve death and bake the Israel cannot put him to death they had to go and get permission from Rome for Rome to put him to death and when

John came their Sacrificial system was no more because John baptized for the remission of sins

Meaning they didn't need that sacrificial system, right? That's because the new kingdom the covenant the new covenant the heavenly kingdom people of God were coming upon the earth and Jesus may mention that the kingdom of God was

Was I can't remember if it says unto John or something in the violent take it by force or something like that.

I can't remember You remember how it references it. I don't know I want you to I want you to chew on that one.

Just just real fat That's the that's where I was going to with this. But yeah, just chew on that You know pray about it, you know, but maybe the

Lord will convict you with his word Open his eyes Open his eyes

What like you you get it right like ultimately I mean I was a dispensary, yeah, I was dispensational so you don't have to convince me to be a dispensational no, no, but It's two on one

I'll say like when I deal with people like and I don't take this offensive like I don't mean this offensive

Oh Whenever people tell me that oh, I was a dispensational I Kind of view it like when an atheist tells me

I used to be a Christian and it's like oh, come on but ultimately like I fought hard against covenant theology because all

I was given was Presbyterian covenant theology But I think it's wrong Try to imagine though if a

Presbyterian was to come to you and you'd be like, oh I used to be Baptist and it's like, okay Were you

Like I was a hyper charismatic So, you know, yeah, like really quickly.

Let me ask like Scholarly dispensational works. What have you guys actually read in rap?

Cuz like I can show you stuff like stuff that I read Like I mean, well you see like a fair amount of my books like I read.

Yeah early like Puritans like yeah Well, I can tell you've read a lot like yeah

Like I read like I read more covenant theology than I read dispensational so ultimately for me and it's because For me,

I don't want to see what a dispensational has to say about covenant theology I want to see what covenant theology has to say about covenant theology and I want to see what

Dispensationalism has to say about dispensationalism You know what, you know, what would change me is if I opened up my

Bible and the Bible if I replace that word covenant with dispensation

Dispensations believe in covenants, right? No. Well, no and there's and the Bible does mention dispensations.

Yeah once But I think they take it to a different It's one time, you know, but Dispensations and covenants.

There's really not a lot of a lot of difference in how we would view like I know

I think it's who is it Keener that that has systematic theology and that teaches on covenant theology and Dispensationalism in it.

It's usually given to you when you go to a you know, a place like Calvary Chapel College or Dallas Seminary and You're you're also given

What's it called a bat by? I P I IPA background commentaries on Old Covenant and New Testament the

New Covenant. I mean Old Testament New Testament yeah, I I used to go around it to churches and at dispensational churches and teach on covenant theology and And you know, we both you know, we learn from each other one of one of my favorites

I don't know if you ever heard of a rap report Andrew rap report I've heard the name.

Oh, he's a he's a I love him. He's my favorite dispensationalist He's my favorite dispensationalist man, and he got we got to get him on.

Yeah Well, the reason I go to a Presbyterian or like Reformed Church is because again, there's not many like I know some dispensational

I don't know any really serious Scholarly dispensationals that know why they believe what they believe

But I like you said earlier Jeff like when you look at the church today You try to talk to almost any

Christian about what they believe why they believe and they don't know Like I'm in a Reformed Church. Someone asked me they're like, why don't you baptize your kids?

I'm like, how about this you tell me why you baptize your kids and then I'll tell you afterwards why

I don't baptize mine And she's like well, we baptize them because we want them to go to heaven and I looked at her

I'm like, that's not your church's creedal statement That's not the church. That's not the view that our church holds to because she goes to my church

I'm like that is not the view that our church holds. You should learn your own position before you try to correct mine

So that's why we're writing this book on continuity and discontinuity. It's gonna answer a lot of questions

Yeah, and it should be out by February You heard about that conference that we're having and much in my area the white

Conference I'm Canadian the Queen won't let me leave. Oh The Queen's dead bro, the

Queen's dead did you hear Well, I tell you so the conference that we plan on having for 2025 if I can make it happen as I want to have a covenant theology conference

Where we have Presbyterian covenant theology being presented Baptist covenant theology being presented and then on the final day will be a debate against the two.

Oh, I thought you're now I would say well Thanks for well 2026 we're trying to make that happen.

Yeah, let us defeat these press fees and then we'll make that happen Yeah, well, you know

Again I've studied Presbyterian covenant theology. I've studied reform

Baptist covenant theology like Pascal Denault I think Pascal Denault his book, which is a good book, but I think that there's a lot of hoes in it, too.

Yeah We've been really really diving into have you read any

Renahan? I Haven't read

Yet Renahan's the man.

Yeah, right hand. He'll twist your cat back I'm hoping to bump elbows with Renahan this week at the

G3 conference because I yeah, because like like like I have a

Dream of coming out with a reform Baptist study Bible because because me being in the Bible business, right?

I rub like a Thomas Nelson want something special done. They call me I'm really good friends with the people that do the

LSB 316 and I think that I can get enough scholarly Some scholars together to where we can actually do this and so I'm gonna reach out to these my friends in the publishing world about Within the next few years having a reform

Baptist study Bible nice So so that's it's one of the things that we're in.

I'm very busy I can imagine and then the Bible rebinding but yeah as I've as I've studied like I've Like I said,

I went to a reform Baptist Church before the one I went to now we left over Not not over the doctrine issue.

It was over something else But a lot of the reform Baptist churches can be legalistic.

Oh, yeah. Well and like It was a legal issue like like an actual issue with the law.

So we ended up leaving Because there was there was abuse and the police were not brought in They weren't notified and I'm like,

I I can't I can't be here. So we went to another church. We we chose the Reformed and Just studying it.

I'll be honest with you I I do find Presbyterian covenant theology a lot more easier a lot easier to wrap my mind around I Do I do find appealing is like the simplicity of it so yeah

Well, I'll say this and I really have to go I'll say this but I really have to go the the main difference being is is

Presbyterian see that the the covenant of grace was established in chapter 3 of Genesis chapter

Genesis 3 15 But there is no covenant given in 315 what's given is the promise of a covenant and that is when

Jesus comes and On the crucifixion and bruises the head of the serpent right remove removes the power of death from him

So so so when you look at the Adamic covenant no way it covenant Abrahamic covenant

Mosaic covenant and the Davidic covenant it all has So there's a do this and live there's a do this and then there's a prohibition

You either do this or if you fall fail to do this then death or our separation is coming

Those things are not given in 315 Those things are given by Jesus whenever Jesus appears, right?

And so and so there is no What you would call a covenant of grace given but what they would call the covenant of grace

Us Baptist would say is the promise of the covenant of grace. Yeah, and that probably

I gotta get going to Abraham all the way David Jesus is the fulfillment and Jesus is the

Jesus is the one that brings in what they call the covenant of grace and it is the new covenant

There is no covenant of grace in the Old Testament. Oh Testament. Hey, I gotta go One one thing

I'll say before I go As far as those those covenants what might be helpful if you want to have a conversation about like the frameworks of dispensationalism and covenant theology

We as dispensationals wouldn't We wouldn't accept a formal covenant of redemption covenant of works or covenant of grace so that's primarily covenant theology that Forms these covenants and I think that's why primarily covenant theology can can get to church in the

Old Testament and The church is the new Israel. Yeah, well the old testament people are is a physical

Seed of Abraham the church those Which we call it the church, right? Christians those that follow

Jesus are the spiritual descendants of Abrahamity and I think I Fred I'm sorry you disagree with me brother, but I am a

Baptist I hold a Baptist covenant theology and it is the way to go my friend and If you ever want to come on and have a conversation we love to have you man

But when this book comes out I do recommend you read it and I'm telling you what if you can read this book and walk away thinking

Presbyterian covenant theology is correct. I have no idea where you're getting it from Yep, so yeah, so let's land this

You have any last word you want to say don't talk bad about me No, I mean again,

I think ultimately the most important thing is

I'm trying to remember where it was. I think We need to preserve the spirit of unity and the bond of peace.

Absolutely again, like I'm a dispensational I go to a to a Basically a Presbyterian Church.

I could not disagree more. I love my Presbyterian brothers I do not make it an issue.

I don't even I don't even bring it up. My pastor talks to me about it But but ultimately like we're all going to the same place you guys are just gonna be mad when you get raptured and You gotta wait up there

But it's seven years because the seven years doesn't begin until the Antichrist signs the

Covenant with an anti -christ is someone who denies that Jesus is About syrinthus.

Yeah, that's First John is talking about the G's I know that tribulation period could be 20 years for all we know that there's nothing saying that it's it's seven years from a

Specific point when when he signs the Covenant so ultimately at the end of the day

We can we can all just we can agree to disagree. We can have spirited debates, but but I think

The biggest thing is like recognizing that that we're all believers. We all love the Lord Absolutely.

And yeah, I'm gonna let each other know. Yeah, absolutely Well, man, I've really appreciated having you on and hope to have you back on here.

And again like Everyone that's watching like we're not somewhat I mean, we're not people that are unreachable like like y 'all want to ever get on here and have a conversation with us and have fun we welcome the

We definitely welcome y 'all Thanks everyone for Listening to us.

I hope everyone has a blessed day If you're at if you come to the g3 conference, please come check out my booth as always