October 1, 2009

The Dividing Line Opens With a Calvinism Clip and a Correction

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon starting into the month of October if you can. Believe that I don't know where it went either. If you sit around most years and go where did this year go?

That is clear indication of the progress of age. And those of you who are young enough to go 2009 wasn't too fast. That means you're young but 2010 will go faster in 2011 faster than that and then eventually it's just all one big I.

Was gonna say blur but not boss. Like an Olympic luge comes to mind.

Yeah straight but downward for you, huh? Sorry about that. Yeah, we are close to your birthday, aren't we? So Yeah, did you did you get to do your birthday thing yesterday? Oh, oh good. Okay, that's that's good to know anyhow 54 days until Christmas that nah, no way.

It's not. No, it was 91 just few days ago. So someone someone's completely confused there, but anyhow, I made a mistake last time when I played the Chuck Smith clip and I would like to. Yes, 86 days. Thank you very much boy.

Somebody was just completely off on that I'd like to fix that. I sort of did on the blog. I I wrote a comment. But I wanted to get to the calls last time and so I accidentally forgot that one of the weirdest statements that was made by the Calvary Chapel leadership on Program was at the very end of the clip that we were playing and So I wanted to get to that and to respond to that and I've got another clip That was sent to me today that we can look at as well as well as your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five.

Three three three four one. So let's I want to get let's catch that last little comment. Because I wanted to respond to it.

Calvinism, Jesus, and the Charge of a Jesus-less Gospel

Calvinism is Christianity without Jesus because they leave Jesus at the equation. They just take certain statements of Paul and then of course and read their own Theology into it. So, okay.

So there you have the part that I skipped and I apologize for skipping that Calvinism is Christianity without Jesus. Now, I don't I don't pretend understand that. I don't I don't get that. I don't understand that.

These the folks that had just massacred Matthew 23 37 and miscited it and These folks are the folks that would be able to go through John 6 or John 8 or John 10 or John 17. Aren't those Texan John. Isn't that Jesus there?

I thought it was but again, just the impact of the kind of.

How.

Shall we put it traditionalism that is part and parcel of this movement is seen very very clearly in that kind of a comment and. Can you imagine?

If.

If a quote-unquote Calvinist made a comment about Chuck Smith that what he preaches the Christianity without Jesus. Can you imagine just the the the knee-jerk reaction to that? But as long as it's reformed theology, then I guess it's it's okay so anyway, that's that's life, so.

Anyhow, we will look at a second clip in in a moment. But first we go ahead and take phone call and hey. When it gets really quiet like that I'm doing hand signals I'm trying to you know, do the the things there and things like that and it I finally got it communicated.

Yeah, just yeah. Very good. Very good. Boy. How do you do that? We communicated that entire thing and no one has any idea what you just fixed in here. And I didn't even have to tell you I was that was good.

We are even doing this long time and eventually eventually we communicate fairly well. Sorry folks. Just a little professional engineering stuff that needs To be taken care of and we got it taken care of and that's how it works.

So anyways, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number. Let's say before we go to the second clip from the folks at Calvary Chapel. Let's talk to Mark, hi mark. Hi. Hi.

How are you doing? I'm pretty good. Yes, sir.

Sorry, I said yes, sir. Video of yours. And what. And what video was that? It was a video from YouTube you were talking about why be young but he's somebody. Use the. Oh, yeah. That was a damn marker.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you were saying that it wasn't valid.

Well what I said was invalid is that the issue between a Theist and an atheist is not a difference between believing in just one lesser one less God that that place is the entire issue of worldviews on the basis of diminishing numbers of gods.

It is it is ridiculous to think that it is a valid argument to say that. Well. The only difference between us is I just believe in one less God. No, you have an entire view of the universe that cannot have any type of Transcendent guidance or meaning to it does not have a creator.

It is him is therefore impersonal etc, etc. So it's not just a matter of of a well. You know, you don't believe in Zeus and and you don't believe in Thor and you don't believe in Woden, etc, etc. And I just believe in just one less God than you do that that that really I think grossly cheapens The entire discussion, don't you?

I don't think that the point was to say that the only difference in our worldview is this up to a theist to they see. Did you know that if you can look past Islam?

That's not true. That's just that's completely untrue there. That's Believe me I study Islam a lot and that's. You're you're wrong about that if that's so you think that I'm judging Islam on the same way that you judge Christianity.

That's just not true. But did you listen to Dan Barker's entire statement because that he said exactly what I said that is he went through it wasn't in The video. Okay. Well, I Believe that I played enough of it that there would be enough Context to know that he did go through Woden and Thor and these others and.

Yeah, so so what he was doing is saying well, we're all just atheists. I'm just one step farther than than you are because I've taken out the last one. In fact, he'd even included Jehovah the Israelite war God and I just believe that it completely cheapens and.

Diminishes the conversation when I don't think that's what they. How many. How many of Dan Barker's debates have you listened to?

Well, but he certainly uses it a lot and I think that I am being perfectly fair.

I think the point is just to know. Well again, I've listened to him use it many many times.

He used it in a debate against me last weekend in Newburgh, Oregon and so I've heard the context that he's that he's used it in and and since you haven't then I don't know that you can really argue.

The point but I don't know how he uses it. I'll give you that. Well, okay.

I can only respond to the people to one person at a time. And so I think the context in which I was responding to to that is very fair to to Dan's.

Perspectives at that point when I was an atheist when I read yeah.

Well, I I don't know I don't know what the the relevance of the quote is when you say I just believe in one less God than you do. What you're saying is I believe in a completely different perspective on Absolutely fundamentally couldn't be any different any more different.

Mm-hmm. Certainly. I mean I have I have a grounding for.

For transcendent values. I have a grounding for purpose for reality that I have no need for transcendent values. I have no need for something to be dictated from but supernatural realm, but your needs.

But my friend your needs are not the same thing as the observation I was just making. You might say I don't need those things that doesn't change the reality. That my worldview provides things you don't think that you need now.

I I would say to you that you not only need them, but you function on them every single day. You may say you don't need. Certainly certainly you do. Do you drive down the left side of the road? No, why not.

I mean if there's no if. If the laws if the if the laws of our universe are are not in fact fixed and transcendent. Then why not drive down the left side of the road because you know, what's going to happen?

You know what the results of that are going to the properties of the universe being consistent.

But that's not relevant to the fact that what I was saying is that you will live In a way where you believe that there is a consistency. Now, you might say well, it's an impersonal consistency. But I would say you don't even have a ground for knowing for knowing that that's going to remain that way in the future.

You mean and then you're saying is that every single observation made by every scientist isn't enough of a grandma.

Well, what. I'm not sure. What you mean. By observation of a scientist. By that logic.

You can't know that the Bible says what it does because for all you know The Bible could change when you're not looking at it. This is in this is crazy logic.

I would agree because I haven't a foggiest idea how you've leapt from one point to the other. Could could you explain the difference between my challenging how you can know that you're saying that I.

Assume that the universe is constant rather than observing it every time. Saying that you do not have a sufficient basis for why you live.

Consistently the way that you live if you want to say that you that you're going to reject.

I don't have a basis for why I drive on I said consistent basis.

That's the problem. Here you there's no question.

I.

You you're gonna drive on the right side of the road because you have observed that that's the best thing to do. The point is that the atheist when he looks at this universe does not have a consistent ground for explaining Why things are the way they are except for interestingly enough what you just gave us which was a I think a fascinating Insertion of the true religious authority for the atheist and that is the overarching term Scientists whoever they might be whatever inclusions, you know, whatever it might be.

But but science really does become become the religion for you, doesn't it?

You're correct here. It's like it's something that you've heard about. Maybe they exist. Maybe they don't know.

It's just the way that you referred to them there. It's it almost sounded like sort of a priest class for you.

I'm saying that scientists are perfect. That's how you know that because if I didn't rely on scientific observations, then I couldn't know that with that level of precision.

So what with that level of precision? Then I was about to say so. How did anyone before we knew the speed of light actually know light exist or function with light? But that's you're you're now talking about precision issues.

But you're you're not getting my point and and that is that we're talking about. Why these things are consistent the way that they are why there is the regularity of nature what the origin of these things are.

And how that then impacts how we as human beings behave and why we behave the way that we behave. So, I don't know any of that had to do with my reading the Bible though. I'm.

Totally totally lost you on that one, but that's good. Yeah, that's my point at my point what I forget it.

Yeah, that's that's. I'm I'm I'm you know there's there's a million places to quote-unquote debate on the internet and there's probably a million debates going on and I'm glad someone suggested that you that you call.

I just don't find it Overly helpful that the issue was one that really isn't central outside of the fact.

I.

Have you have you listened to any of the debates that we've done on the subject of atheism? I can't. That's fine. That's fine. I just. You know normally when someone calls in they have a particular point and we deal with that that one particular point and I think.

Yeah, and I and I pointed out that. Given that the fact that you didn't actually Know how Dan has used that in multiple situations and I did that I don't know that you really have a basis upon which to.

Well.

I granted that you may be using it a different way and that I can't right and I understand that.

So Appreciate the phone call then. All right. All right. Thanks for calling. All right. Eight seven seven seven five three three four and I I don't I have a little problem with. Oh, let's just pick a topic.

Let's let's rumble, you know type of a thing and And and maybe right now to be honest with you after looking at Having had to deal over the past few days with mr. Barker's Behavior after the debate and not really all that excited about dealing with atheism right now.

It's just there is I. Yeah, I don't know I've been sent a lot of comments that people have made about about the debate and obviously the vast majority of them are positive and stuff, but there is just a mindset of the of the atheists that it's not been something I have really wanted to pursue a whole lot of.

I You know, I think there's reason to do it and I've done it when called upon to do so but it's not something I really enjoy doing because There's just there's just an element of that kind of rebellion That just is very distasteful to me and it's just not something that's you know There's some people that water off a duck's back and I guess they're the ones that are sort of Built to handle that kind of thing, but I find it far more I don't know a fulfilling and far more a part of what I do to respond to those who like me recognize their created nature and Yet have issues in regards to that so anyway, I Did you have something you wanted to?

Along these lines I was gonna say the in editing doing some editing on the video today the the debate from the previous debate I found a lot of the arguments that Dan throughout. Rather familiar and I hadn't heard that stuff from Dan Barker before I think I Mormonism, yeah, I'd heard that kind of attack on the Bible and you can't trust the Bible and then bringing out first John 5 7 and On and on and on and it's like wow, that sounds awful familiar and well, there's no question.

They reach out and get the atheistic argument. Well, there's no question that there is a tremendous amount of overlap. That's one of the reasons why I've done the work in atheism is because there are there are places where it overlaps, but.

You will find Mormons borrowing atheistic arguments on contradiction. You'll find Muslims grabbing hold of anything to attack the Bible, even if it is grossly Under, you know, it's grossly undercuts their own position.

Yeah that that lack of consistency is is a consistency in essence. So it's just not I Don't know. It's just. And I'll put it other than sometimes you just you just get tired of that kind of. Kind of discussion.

I wanted to like I said play a another clip that I ran across today. It was sent to me another another caller. I guess the folks at Calvary Chapel get a whole lot of phone calls on the same subjects and this one I found not quite as bad as the last one but it is again an example of.

And at least this caller you can tell he's looking he's looking for ammunition. You know the one we listened to last time the caller was going well. These verses sound pretty pretty convincing to me. And so she was given a scattergun of verses back this one's same verse again and Are we going to find an exegesis?

Well, I don't know. Let's let's listen in.

I've been hearing a thing about predestination a lot. Mm-hmm that there are individuals out of masses of people in the world. God predestined that only a multitude of people would be saved. Mm-hmm. I don't agree with that.

Neither do we. Okay, because they use it one scripture in Romans 8 29 30 near so she for new Predestined before me. It was just your son and I said in God's foreknowledge. He knows he's going to accept his son.

You're right.

Yeah, let's check answer you Joseph. You're on the right track there. So don't so calm down. You're good. You're gonna you're gonna not have to worry about it a few minutes. Okay, Chuck help Joseph out here.

You're not gonna have to worry about it in a few minutes. We're we're gonna we're gonna settle this Thing in a few minutes. I think they really believe that they can do that. I really think that they go.

Yep. Yep. These are responses are all you'll ever need. They are more than in-depth enough. These guys don't know what they're talking about, etc, etc.

Just a few minutes and and everything's gonna be just. Joseph we do know that God is omnipotent and we know that God is omniscient and in the omniscience of God that is he knows all things as James said known unto him are all things from the beginning.

Well, that's great. And I am very thankful to hear Chuck Smith say that. That's a good thing. I think our minion ism undercuts that and that's what has given rise to open theism and and the things related to it.

That's good. But why does God know all things? How does God know all things? Someone might say well, you know, let's not go there. Let's not let's not ask. So we're not told those things. Well, I think we are.

Where in Scripture do we encounter? Those assertions about God's knowledge of the past in the future and when you find those texts What are you gonna find in the same context that God is the? Creator he's the creator and his knowledge of past present and future is Rooted in what it is rooted in His being the creator of all things.

Now what we're about to get is the standard Arminian fare that God looks down the corridors of time and he sees who's good. And you would think? That there would be some effort To go now, you know there.

We've we take the time to read what other people say. We've taken the time to Really do our homework and and they say that that there's a difference between God for knowing Someone and God having for knowledge and yeah, this is a verb here in Romans 8.

It's it's not a noun. And so we can't treat it like it's like it's the noun. We need to look we need to ask ourselves a question. What does it mean to foreknow someone and Then maybe give an answer. But I never hear them doing that.

I never hear him doing it. Instead they'll just slide over that and it again seems to me. I'd like to think that I'm wrong. But it seems to me That what they're really going for is the easy answer to satisfy the caller not not to really deal with the issue.

But let's just get this. Let's just get this out of the way and Move on to. You know make sure you know, this is another person. It's not going to be bringing this dreaded theology into our into our Calvary Chapel fellowships if God knows all.

Things. That means he can't learn anything. If he can learn something it means that he didn't know at all. Okay.

Pastor Smith if God Knows what free creatures are going to do When did he learn it. You just said God can't learn so God has had to have known all along and That's the very objection that people raise against Divine exhaustive foreknowledge.

That's the best. That's the ground of open theism right there. Has God from all eternity known every action is going to take place in time how? When he created did he know it before he created or when he created was there an instantaneous learning of all these things?

You see if you don't have a creative decree That determines what takes place in time then you can say God's always known. But the ultimate reason he is known is because something other than God determined the very form of time itself.

You want to say God's sovereign you have to say God's sovereign. I applaud you for that. It's right there in the text of Scripture but What does that mean? When you then turn around and say well, you know, it's it's finally it's up to us.

I mean, this is the greatest thing God does is salvation. So it's up to us. It's fundamentally up to us whether we're in or out. How do you hold those two together? Do you just hope that people aren't going to see those two don't hold together very well.

Are these really that difficult? So so arcane issues that we we shouldn't be thinking about these things.

I.

Just don't get the feeling that these are things that they are thinking about on a regular basis.

And so if God will ever know who is going to be saved then God has always known Who is going to be saved. And we do know that God is not willing that any should perish. But that all should come to repentance.

So here again, we see and it gets tiring for us after a while because. The thought in the back of the mind is will these men ever deal with the counter exegesis of the big three? Will they ever stop misquoting Matthew 23 37 will they ever actually look at the context of 1st Timothy 2 for a look at the Context of 2nd Peter 3 9.

Why do they take these texts and just and and that's what that's what Norm Geisler did 45 was it 45 times? I think he cited those texts either alone or together as as the Very mechanism by which the entire Bible must be interpreted.

Right there, that's how the house has to be done and that makes me go.

Hmm.

Again, if you're what doesn't it cross people's mind boy. I'm using this over and over and over again. I better make sure I'm right on this one you know that isn't. Doesn't that make sense. It makes sense to me and.

Yet that's not necessarily what ends up happening, but then God leaves.

Whether or not I am saved up to my choice. Do I choose to accept or reject Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior now? It also stands that God knows whether or not I'm going to accept or reject because he knows all things and.

Immediately the open Thea says so. If that is the case you cannot do otherwise. So where is your vaunted free will? Where is this this ultimate freedom. If God has known from eternity exactly what you're gonna do How can you say that you do it freely?

Because if God knows what you're gonna have for dinner tonight that's what you're gonna have for dinner tonight. Period end of discussion. God can't learn anything and. So none of that actually ends up addressing the real issue.

And that is that means that when God created he knew all this evil was going to exist and. And you can blame that on man's free will all you want. God Knew from eternity past all this evil would exist and so here's the question.

Did you have a reason for it or not? It's all there is to it. If he had a reason then how can you deny his creative decree that it's his reason that he gives meaning to it? If it's man that determines all these things then.

Did God. How could God really know these things if man's autonomous? Those are the conundrums faced by those who promote this perspective and.

When we get to heaven God isn't gonna be surprised and say well my what a shock I didn't know you're gonna make it. You know he knew all the while, but what did he predestined? He predestined that we should be conformed to the image of Christ.

Romans 8, Foreknowledge, and the Charge of Open Theism

Yeah, that's what we dealt with the last time.

Taking that one element and Isolating it from everything else isolating it from the gospel so that you can be predestined under something other than All of salvation and Disconnecting it from the text.

That's that's how they do it and I don't know how. The feeling I've gotten is that when people in the Calvary Chapel movement come to understand these things and They challenge the leadership. They just get a stone wall.

They just get no response whatsoever. That's the feeling I've gotten from talking to people who are been in the.

Calvary Chapel or they get to take the name off the door. Well. Yeah, you got that too honestly.

That's that is a part of it too. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We're gonna take our break and be right back right after this.

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Thank you.

We are listening to another phone call that was directed to my attention from the pastor's perspective I think is what it's called featuring Chuck Smith and some of the Calvary Chapel leaders and We just once again heard the Oh all were predestined to is being conformed the image of Christ.

Not all the rest that stuff about calling and justification and glorification and don't worry about Ephesians 1 that talks about you know, the blood of Christ and forgiveness and Adoption and all that stuff about salvation just get the idea that what's really going on is that you're just predestined to be conformed the image of Christ which all that means is is That God has chosen in time past that anyone who believes in Jesus will be made to look like Jesus.

That's that's all it's about. Never mind. Stuff move on. Nothing to see here. That's a feeling I get. That's sort of how it's being dealt with. You know, oh, here's here's a really service. I'll answer this move on.

Don't think about that. Go go go go and it bothers me just just a tad bit.

Well actually it bothers me a lot. And and so he did it predestined say well You're gonna be saved. And he did it say to someone else. Well, you're gonna be lost your predestined to be lost. There's no way you can be saved.

Yeah, of course, he didn't do that because you know, we don't want to deal with the idea of the justice of God and condemning all sinners and then the necessity of the extension of God's grace to save anyone.

And we want people to think that what the Calvinists are doing is is You know an equal thing going both directions. The predestination is equal either way not that not that two men are fallen and that God has to extend grace to save them or anything like that and he he doesn't have to extend any type of power in that way to Continue have them to continue in their sin because that's what they like.

In fact, I suppose you could say he has to extend some power because he's always restraining their evil. But be that as it may, you know, we don't want don't want to you know actually put it in the way that other people are expressing it because then our answers wouldn't sound as.

Much of a refutation. I believe that he has left that open and it is man's choice. No, man kit in hell can say I'm here because God predestined me to be here. God is God. Is it fair?

God isn't fair. Well, you know what the opposite of what we just heard is that those in heaven are There because God is fair. Think about that one just a second. Think about that one just a second. You see mercy and grace Are not categories of fairness.

They transcend justice. They do not undo justice obviously because of the death of Christ God's justice is perfectly preserved and protected but mercy and grace transcend justice and. So this idea of God being fair.

Anybody who's in heaven is going to testify that God isn't fair. It's not fair that anyone experience God's blessing. So that's a little bit scary to me. That you're so concerned that someone in heavens and hell is gonna say well I I'm I'm here because God predestined me to be here.

No the person in hell knows that they're there because they hate God. Do you really think that anyone's gonna be having debates with with God? With the people in hell over an issue like that. Even if they stood there saying you forced me to do this with that without isn't that what isn't that what?

Criminals do today. Do we give them much? Well, I suppose in Western the Western world we do give them some ground for that but We recognize that's not the case. The person staying in the parapet of hell expressing his hatred toward God is not gonna be arguing the justice of God.

They're gonna be arguing their hatred of God.

I'm here because I didn't accept the offer of salvation. No, I'm here because I'm a sinner.

The reason I'm not there is because I did not accept that but I wouldn't do that even now. That's the whole point of recognizing the true nature of the depraved man.

God gave to me through Jesus Christ. And so it's my fault. It was my choice to reject Christ and that's why I'm here.

There is no question that it's your fault and it was your choice. The point is that you wouldn't have made any other choice because you are a slave of sin. There's that Romans 8 text again, where you know, no one can do what's pleasing to God and all that stuff, but.

No one can blame God that they are in hell. They're all there by their own free choice that they made in Rejecting God's invitation for salvation through Jesus Christ.

Even though that when God created he knew exactly what that was gonna happen. He knew that was gonna happen. So I don't know if he takes the God has saved the most people possible view or You know the balance view the Molinist view that the William Lake Craig.

Yeah, I don't know I've not heard him actually get to the point of answering that kind of question at all.