October 1, 2009

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a

Thursday afternoon starting into the month of October if you can

Believe that I don't know where it went either if you sit around most years and go where did this year go?

that is clear indication of the progress of age and Those of you who are young enough to go 2009 wasn't too fast.

That means you're young but 2010 will go faster in 2011 faster than that and then eventually it's just all one big

I Was gonna say blur but not boss like an

Olympic luge comes to mind. Yeah straight but downward for you, huh? I'm sorry about that. Yeah, we are close to your birthday, aren't we?

So Yeah, did you did you get to do your birthday thing yesterday? Oh, well good good.

That's that's good to know anyhow 54 days until Christmas that nah, no way.

It's not no it was 91 just few days ago So someone someone's completely confused there, but anyhow,

I made a mistake last time when

I played the Chuck Smith clip and I would like to Yes, 86 days.

Thank you very much boy. Somebody was just completely off on that I'd like to fix that.

I sort of did on the blog. I I wrote a comment But I wanted to get to the calls last time and so I accidentally forgot that one of the weirdest statements that was made by the

Calvary Chapel leadership on the program was at the very end of the clip that we were playing and So I wanted to get to that and respond to that and I've got another clip

That was sent to me today that we can look at as well as well as your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five

Three three three four one. So let's I want to get let's catch that last little comment

Because I want to respond to it Calvinism is Christianity without Jesus because they leave

Jesus at the equation They just take certain statements of Paul and then of course and read their own

Theology into it. So, okay So there you have the part that I skipped and I apologize for skipping that Calvinism is

Christianity without Jesus Now, I don't I don't pretend to understand that I don't

I don't get that. I don't understand that These the folks that had just massacred

Matthew 23 37 and miscited it and These folks are the folks that would be able to go through John 6 or John 8 or John 10 or John 17

Aren't those Texan John isn't that Jesus there? I thought it was but again, just the impact of the kind of How Shall we put it's a traditionalism that is part and parcel of this movement is seen very very clearly in that kind of a comment and Can you imagine?

if if a quote -unquote Calvinist Made a comment about Chuck Smith that what he preaches the

Christianity without Jesus Can you imagine just the the the knee -jerk reaction to that? But as long as it's reformed theology, then

I guess it's it's okay so anyway, that's that's life, so Anyhow, we will look at a second clip in in a moment

But first we go ahead and take phone call and hey When It gets really quiet like that.

I'm doing hand signals I'm trying to you know, do the the things there and things like that and I finally got it communicated

Yeah, just yeah Very good. Very good. Boy. How do you do that?

We communicated that entire thing and no one has any idea what you just fixed in here And I didn't even have to tell you

I was that was good We are we've been doing this a long time and eventually Eventually, we communicate fairly well.

Sorry folks. Just a little professional engineering stuff that needs Need to be taken care of and we got it taken care of and that's how it works

So anyways, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number Let's say before we go to the second clip from the folks at Calvary Chapel.

Let's talk to Mark, hi mark. Hi. Hi. How are you doing? I'm pretty good

Yes, sir Sorry, I said yes, sir. All right Yes, I was debating with somebody on zanga .com

and Because they'd posted a video of yours and I Disagreed with it and said why and then they asked me to call into your show

I think the idea was that you beat me in a debate And what and what video was that?

It was a video from YouTube you were talking about why be young Is it somebody somebody used the

Argument You believe or I believe in one pure God than you do.

Oh, yeah, that was a damn marker Mm -hmm. Yeah, and you were saying that it wasn't valid because they happen to use the example of One of a polytheistic

God instead of a monotheistic God well, what I said was invalid is that the issue between a

Theist and an atheist is not a difference between believing in just one lesser one less

God That that place is the entire issue of worldviews on the basis of diminishing numbers of gods

It is it is ridiculous to think that it is a valid argument to say that well

The only difference between us is I just believe in one less God No, you have an entire view of the universe that cannot have any type of Transcendent guidance or meaning to it does not have a creator.

It is him is therefore impersonal etc, etc so it's not just a matter of of Well, you know, you don't believe in Zeus and and you don't believe in Thor and you don't believe in Woden, etc

Etc, and I just believe in just one less God than you do that Really I think grossly cheapens

The entire discussion, don't you? I don't think that the point was to say that the only difference in our worldview is this

I think the point was to illustrate to a theist who Typically believes in the

God of their culture or the God of their parents religion That they that an atheist sees their religion as they see

Islam or Hinduism or any other religion Well, did you know that if you can look past that your your upbringing or your culture or whatever that that you're

Judging Islam by the same standards, but an atheist judges Christianity. That's not true.

That's just that's completely untrue there. That's Believe me. I study Islam a lot and that's you're wrong about that If that's so you think that I'm judging

Islam on the same way that you judge Christianity That's just not true. But did you listen to Dan Barker's entire statement because that he said exactly what

I said That is he went through Okay. Well, I Believe that I played enough of it that there would be enough

Context to know that he did go through Woden and Thor and these others

Yeah, so so what he was doing is saying well, we're all just atheists I'm just one step farther than than you are because I've taken out the last one.

In fact, he'd even included Jehovah the Israelite war god and I just believe that it completely cheapens and Diminishes the conversation when

I don't think that's what that what he was after and I don't think that's the point of the thing I think it's how many how many of Dan Barker's debates have you listened to?

Um None that I can think of off hand, but uh, but I bet he didn't invent that argument nor did he invent that quote

Oh, well, but he certainly uses it a lot and I think that I am being perfectly fair I think the point is just to get to try and show you the perspective of an atheist more than to say

You know you you and I are exactly alike Obviously if somebody believes that the world is created and that you know, they have a different concept of what purposes

They have a different concept of what morality is Even though there's usually a lot of overlap I don't

I don't think that the The point was to say that there is no cultural difference between A believer and a non -believer.

No. Well again, I've listened to him use it many many times He used it in a debate against me last weekend in Newburgh, Oregon and So I've I've heard the context of these that he's used it in and and since you haven't then

I don't know that you can Really argue the point, but I don't know how he uses it. I'll give you that Well, okay I can only respond to the people to one person at a time and so I think the

Context in which I was responding to to that is very fair to to Dan's perspectives at that point

Well when I was an atheist when I read that quote for the first time that isn't at all how I took it Yeah Well, I I don't know.

I don't know what the the relevance of the quote is when you say I just believe in one less God than you do

What you're saying is I believe in a completely different perspective on Absolutely fundamentally couldn't be any different any more different Certainly, I mean

I have I have a grounding for For transcendent values.

I have a grounding for purpose for reality that Transcendent values,

I have no need for something to be dictated from but super natural, but your But my friend your needs are not the same thing as the observation

I was just making you might say I don't need those things that doesn't change the reality That my worldview provides things you don't think that you need now

I I would say to you that you not only need them, but you function on them every single day You may say you don't need

Certainly certainly you do. Do you drive down the left side of the road? No, why not

I mean if there's no if If the laws if the if the laws of our universe are are not in fact fixed and transcendent

Then why not drive down the left side of the road because you know what's going to happen You know what the results of that are going to the properties of the universe being consistent doesn't mean that they're dictated

So by a supernatural being I mean, that's like You know Aristotle thought that smoke went up because the gods wanted it to People thought that way for a long time until they finally realized that it doesn't actually

Help them to understand nature to assume that God is making protons act this way and electrons act that way.

It's an assumption But that's not relevant to the fact that what I was saying is that you will live

In a way where you believe that there is a consistency now you might say well, it's an impersonal consistency

But I would say you don't even have a ground for knowing for knowing that that's going to remain that way in the future

You mean and then you're saying is that every single observation made by every scientist

And every single observation of my own life isn't enough of a grounds to know the universe operates a certain way

Well, what I'm not sure what you mean by observation of a scientist by that logic You can't know that the

Bible says what it does because for all you know The Bible could change when you're not looking at it This is in this is crazy logic

I would agree because I haven't a foggiest idea how you've leapt from one point to the other

I I could could you explain the difference between my challenging how you can know that you're saying that I Assume that the universe is constant rather than observing it every day

I'm saying that you do not have a sufficient basis for why you live Consistently the way that you live if you want to say that you that you're going to reject

I don't have a I don't have a basis for why I drive on I said consistent basis.

That's the problem here you There's no question. I You're gonna drive on the right side of the road because you have observed that that's the best thing to do

The point is that the atheist when he looks at this universe does not have a consistent ground for explaining

Why things are the way they are except for interestingly enough what you just gave us which was a

I think a fascinating Insertion of the true religious authority for the atheist and that is the overarching term scientists whoever they might be whatever inclusions

You know whatever it might be but but science really does become become the religion for you doesn't it you're correct

You're you're treating science like it's something that you've heard about in fables somewhere. Maybe they exist.

Maybe they don't know It's just the way that you referred to them there, it's it almost sounded like sort of a priest class for you

What's science? I'm saying that that scientists have performed countless experiments and if and if you know,

I mean think about the number of experiments Have been proven with that it where the scientists have very meticulously measured

Light and the behavior of light and the speed of light thousands and thousands and thousands of experiments. They've never witnessed it change

They've never done never once have witnessed light behaving a different way, that's how we know that the universe is consistent

That's how you know that because if I didn't rely on scientific observations, then I couldn't know that with that level of precision

So with that level of precision Then I was about to say so how did anyone before we knew the speed of light actually no light exist or function with light?

But that's you're you're now talking about precision issues You're you're not getting my point and and that is that we're talking about Why these things are consistent the way that they are

Why there is the regularity of nature what the origin of these things are and how that then impacts how we as human beings

Behave and why we behave the way that we behave. So I don't know any of that had to do with my reading the

Bible I'm totally totally lost you on that one, but It did but yeah, that's my point of my point what

I forget it. Yeah, that's that's all right. I'm you know, there's there's a million places to quote -unquote debate on the internet and there's probably a million debates going on and I'm glad someone suggested that you that you call.

I just don't find it Overly helpful that the issue was one that really isn't central outside of the fact that I I Have you have you listened to any of the debates that we've done on the subject of atheism?

I can't You I just that's fine That's fine

I just You know normally when someone calls in they have a particular point and we deal with that that one particular point and I think

Yeah, and I and I pointed out that Given that the fact that you didn't actually

Know how Dan has used that in multiple situations and I did that I don't know that you really have a basis upon which to well

I granted that you may be using it a different way and that I can't That I can't account for that.

I can only Respond to how I interpreted that right. I understand that so Appreciate the phone call then.

All right. Thanks for calling. All right 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 and I Don't I I have a little problem with Let's just you know pick a topic.

Let's let's rumble, you know type of thing and And and maybe right now to be honest with you after looking at Having had to deal over the past few days with mr.

Barker's Behavior after the debate and not really all that excited about dealing with atheism right now.

It's just there is I Don't know. I've been sent a lot of comments that people have made about about the debate and obviously the vast majority of them are positive and stuff, but there is just a mindset of the of the atheists that it's not been something

I have really wanted to pursue a whole lot of I You know, I think there's reason to do it and I've done it when called upon to do so but it's not something

I really enjoy doing because There's just there's just an element of that kind of rebellion

That just is very distasteful to me and it's just not something that's you know There's some people that water off a duck's back and I guess they're the ones that are sort of Built to handle that kind of thing, but I find it far more

I don't know a fulfilling and far more a part of what I do to respond to those who like me recognize their created nature and And yet have issues in regards to that so anyway,

I Did you have something you wanted to? Along these lines I was gonna say in editing doing some editing on the video today the the debate from the previous debate

I found a lot of the arguments that Dan throughout rather familiar and I hadn't heard that stuff from Dan Barker before I think

I Mormonism, yeah, I'd heard that kind of attack on the

Bible and you can't trust the Bible and then bringing out first John 5 7 and On and on and on and it's like well, that sounds awful familiar and well, there's no question

They reach out and get the atheistic argument. Well, there's no question that there is a tremendous amount of overlap that's one of the reasons why

I've done the work in atheism is because there are there are places where it overlaps, but You will find

Mormons borrowing atheistic arguments On contradiction you'll find Muslims grabbing hold of anything to attack the

Bible, even if it is grossly Under you know, if grossly undercuts their own position Yeah that that lack of consistency is is a consistency in essence.

So it's just not I don't know it's just And I was to put it other than sometimes you just you just get tired of that kind of Kind of discussion

I wanted to like I said play a another clip that I ran across so today

It was sent to me another another caller I guess the folks at Calvary Chapel get a whole lot of phone calls on the same subjects and this one

I found not quite as bad as the last one but it is again an example of And at least this caller you can tell he's looking he's looking for ammunition

You know the one we listened to last time the caller was going well These verses sound pretty pretty convincing to me.

And so she was given a scattergun of verses back this one's same verse again and Are we going to find an exegesis?

Well, I don't know. Let's let's listen in I've been hearing a thing about predestination a lot.

Mm -hmm that there are individuals out of masses of people in the world God predestined that only a multitude of people would be saved.

Mm -hmm. I don't agree with that. Neither do we Okay, because they use it one scripture in Romans 8 29 30 near so she for new

Predestined before me. It was just your son and I said in God's foreknowledge. He knows he's going to accept his son.

You're right Yeah, let's check the answer you Joseph. You're on the right track there. So don't so calm down You're good. You're gonna you're gonna not have to worry about it a few minutes.

Okay, Chuck help Joseph out here You're not gonna have to worry about it in a few minutes.

We're we're gonna we're gonna settle this Thing in a few minutes. I think they really believe that they can do that I really think that they go.

Yep. Yep. These are responses are all you'll ever need They are more than in -depth enough.

These guys don't know what they're talking about. Etc. Etc Just a few minutes and and everything's gonna be just Joseph we do know that God is omnipotent and we know that God is omniscient and in the omniscience of God that is he knows all things as James said known unto him are all things from the beginning

Well, that's great. And I am very thankful to hear Chuck Smith say that That's a good thing

I think our minion ism undercuts that and that's what has given rise to open theism and and the things related to it.

That's good But why does God know all things? How does

God know all things? Somebody say well, you know, let's not go there.

Let's not let's not ask so we're not told those things. Well, I think we are Where in Scripture do we encounter?

Those assertions about God's knowledge of the past in the future and when you find those texts

What are you gonna find in the same context that God is the?

creator He's the creator and his knowledge of past present and future is rooted in what it is rooted in His being the creator of all things

Now what we're about to get is the standard Arminian fare that God looks down the corridors of time and he sees who's good believe me and you would think

That there would be some effort to go now, you know there we've we take the time to read what other people say we've taken the time to Really do our homework and and they say that that there's a difference between God for knowing

Someone and God having for knowledge and yeah, this is a verb here in Romans 8

It's it's not a noun and so we can't treat it like it's like it's the noun

We need to look we need to ask ourselves a question. What does it mean to foreknow someone and Then maybe give an answer

But I never hear them doing that. I never hear him doing it Instead they'll just slide over that and it again seems to me.

I'd like to think that I'm wrong But it seems to me That what they're really going for is the easy answer to satisfy the caller not not to really deal with the issue but let's just get this let's just get this out of the way and Move on to you know, make sure you know, this is another person

It's not going to be bringing this dreaded theology into our into our Calvary Chapel fellowships if God knows all things

That means he can't learn anything If he can learn something it means that he didn't know at all.

Okay pastor Smith if God Knows what free creatures are going to do

When did he learn it you just said God can't learn so God has had to have known all along and That's the very objection

That people raise against Divine exhaustive foreknowledge, that's the best.

That's the ground of open theism right there Has God from all eternity known every action is going to take place in time how?

When he created did he know it before he created or when he created was there an instantaneous learning of all these things?

You see if you don't have a creative decree That determines what takes place in time then you can say

God's always known But the ultimate reason he is known is because something other than God determined the very form of time itself

You want to say God's sovereign you have to say God's sovereign. I applaud you for that It's right there in the text of Scripture but What does that mean?

When you then turn around and say well, you know, it's it's finally it's up to us I mean, this is the greatest thing

God does is salvation. So it's up to us. It's fundamentally up to us whether we're in or out How do you hold those two together?

Do you just hope that people aren't going to see those two don't hold together very well Are these really that difficult?

So so arcane issues that we we shouldn't be thinking about these things I Just don't get the feeling that these are things that they are thinking about on a regular basis

And so if God will ever know who is going to be saved then

God has always known Who is going to be saved and we do know that God is not willing that any should perish

But that all should come to repentance so here again, we see and it gets tiring for us after a while because The thought in the back of the mind is will these men ever deal with the counter exegesis of the big three?

Will they ever stop misquoting Matthew 23 37 will they ever actually look at the context of 1st

Timothy 2 for a look at the Context of 2nd Peter 3 9. Why do they take these texts and just and and that's what that's what

Norm Geisler did 45 was it 45 times I think he cited those texts either alone or together as as the

Very mechanism by which the entire Bible must be interpreted Right there, that's how the house has to be done and that makes me go hmm

Again, if you're what doesn't it cross people's mind boy. I'm using this over and over and over again

I better make sure I'm right on this one you know that isn't doesn't that make sense it makes sense to me and Yet that's not necessarily what ends up happening, but then

God leaves Whether or not I am saved up to my choice

Do I choose to accept or reject Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior now?

it also stands that God knows whether or not I'm going to accept or reject because he knows all things and Immediately the open theus says so if that is the case you cannot do otherwise

So where is your vaunted free will? Where is this this ultimate freedom if God has known from eternity exactly what you're gonna

Do how can you say that you do it freely? Because if God knows what you're gonna have for dinner tonight that's what you're gonna have for dinner tonight period end of discussion

God can't learn anything and So none of that actually ends up addressing the real issue and that is that means that when

God created he knew all this evil was going to exist and And you can blame that on man's free will all you want

God Knew from eternity past all this evil would exist and so here's the question Did you have a reason for it or not it's all there is to it if?

He had a reason then how can you deny his creative decree that it's his reason that he gives meaning to it if it's man that determines all these things then

Did God how could God really know these things if man's autonomous? Those are the conundrums faced by those who promote this perspective and When we get to heaven

God isn't gonna be surprised and say well my what a shock I didn't know you're gonna make it.

You know he knew all the while, but what did he predestined? He predestined that we should be conformed to the image of Christ.

Yeah, that's what we dealt with the last time taking that one element and Isolating it from everything else isolating it from the gospel so that you can be predestined under something other than All of salvation and Disconnecting it from the text.

That's that's how they do it and I don't know how the feeling I've gotten is that when people in the

Calvary Chapel movement come to understand these things and They challenge the leadership. They just get a stone wall. They just get no response whatsoever

That's the feeling I've gotten from talking to people who have been in the Calvary Chapel Or they get to take the name off the door.

Well. Yeah, you got that too That's that is a part of it too eight seven seven seven five three three four one

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Thank you And welcome back to the dividing line we are listening to another phone call that was directed to my attention from The pastor's perspective

I think is what it's called featuring Chuck Smith and some of the Calvary Chapel leaders and We just once again heard the oh all we're predestined to is being conformed the image of Christ not all the rest that stuff about calling and justification and glorification and don't worry about Ephesians 1 that talks about you know the blood of Christ and forgiveness and Adoption and all that stuff about salvation just get the idea that what's really going on is that you're just Predestined to be conformed image of Christ which all that means is is

That God has chosen in time past that anyone who believes in Jesus will be made to look like Jesus That's that's all it's about Never mind

Move on nothing to see here. That's a feeling I get that's sort of how it's being dealt with you know

Oh, here's here's a really service. I'll answer this move on don't think about that go go go go go And it bothers me just just a tad bit well actually bothers me a lot

But and and so he did it predestined say well you're gonna be saved and he did it say to someone else well

You're gonna be lost you're predestined to be lost. There's no way you can be saved yeah, of course he didn't do that because you know we don't want to deal with the idea of the justice of God and condemning all sinners and then the necessity of the extension of God's grace to save anyone and we want people to think that What the

Calvinists are doing is is you know an equal thing going both directions that predestination is equal either way

Not that not that men are fallen and that God has to extend grace to save them or anything like that and he he doesn't have to extend any type of power in that way to Continue have them to continue in their sin because that's what they like in fact

I suppose you could say he has to extend some power because he's always restraining their evil But be that as it may, you know, we don't want don't want to you know actually put it in the way that other people are expressing it because then our answers wouldn't sound as Much of a refutation.

I believe that he has left that open and it is man's choice No man kit in hell can say

I'm here because God predestined me to be here. God is God. Is it fair?

God isn't fair Well, you know what the opposite of what we just heard is

That those in heaven are There because God is fair Think about that one just a second

Think about that one just a second you see mercy and grace Are not categories of fairness they transcend justice.

They do not undo justice Obviously because of the death of Christ God's justice is perfectly preserved and protected but mercy and grace transcend justice and So this idea of God being fair Anybody who's in heaven is gonna testify that God isn't fair.

It's not fair that anyone experience God's blessing So that's a little bit scary to me

That you're so concerned that someone in heavens and hell is gonna say well I I'm I'm here cuz

God predestined me to be here now the person in hell knows that they're there because they hate God Do you really think that anyone's gonna be having debates with with the people in hell over an issue like that?

Even if they stood there saying you forced me to do this with that with that Isn't that what isn't that what the criminals do today?

Do we give them much? Well, I suppose in Western the Western world we do Give them some ground for that but We recognize that's not the case

The person staying in the parapet of hell expressing his hatred toward God is not gonna be arguing the justice of God They're gonna be arguing their hatred of God.

I'm here because I didn't accept the offer of salvation No, I'm here because I'm a sinner

The reason I'm not there is because I did not accept that but I wouldn't do that even now

That's the whole point of recognizing the true nature of the depraved man God gave to me through Jesus Christ.

And so it's my fault. It was my choice to reject Christ And that's why

I'm here There is no question that it's your fault and it was your choice The point is that you wouldn't have made any other choice because you are a slave of sin there's that Romans 8 text again, where you know, no one can do what's pleasing to God and all that stuff, but No one can blame

God that they are in hell They're all there by their own free choice that they made in Rejecting God's invitation for salvation through Jesus Christ, even though that when

God created He knew exactly what that was gonna happen He knew that was gonna happen. So I don't know if he takes the

God has saved the most people possible view or You know the balance view the

Molinist view that the William Lake Craig, I don't know I've not heard him actually get to the point of answering that kind of question at all

Every time I think about this concept of the attitude of the man in hell, I think of the rich man in Lazarus Now that man was not asking to get out and go be with God, right?

He wanted water Yeah, just a drop of water. Yeah, there was no arguments Even the selfishness the my self -centered view of Everything even there.

He doesn't put it together because he's spiritually dead and hates God even in that situation. Yeah That's quite true this view that we have of man again

Whether you believe what the Bible says about man's total depravity or not will determine how you answer these questions

Joseph if words mean anything then human beings have a choice and from the beginning of Scripture to the end

The Bible assumes we have a choice and now that's that's Dave Hunt speaking

Through somebody else, you know, all you got to do is just simply throw out the idea Well, if words have meanings then we have a choice

Of course, we have a choice. Remember these the same guys who in the last clip said well Calvin's don't believe we have a will no, we do believe well and that we consistently and without question

Exercise that will in rebellion against God period end of discussion

That has to be thrown out. No, I Just I mean that's that's when it got really scary when when

Dave Hunt and I were first going back and forth back in Was it? Oh one or something like that about this or was it 2000?

He was saying some stuff to sound downright Pelagian At that point and you really wonder where where the balance is

Cain and Abel Cain and Abel made their choice what to bring in as an offering We find that in the book of Joshua were told to choose this day whom you will serve

Elijah told the prophets told the people, you know as Baal be God serve him if the Lord be God serve him

Jesus crying over Jerusalem said how often I wanted to gather you as a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you were not willing

How many times is that now in in two different calls of misquoting Matthew 23 37

You need to write a book with that title misquoting Matthew 23 37 maybe maybe

I don't know they can't get it they they've Would someone write to these folks and say could you read your

Bible and Stop misquoting Matthew 23 there's and they're not gonna listen to me My name is mud

You know, they're there's not gonna they're not gonna listen to me But maybe if someone else would just write to him and say, you know it does sort of give those

Calvinists something to talk about when you can't quote the verse right and You do it constantly

It's it's maddening this remember this is a different clip than the last one All right. This is two different calls two different days and you get the same

Destruction of Matt 23 37 assuming there was choice on the part of the people now

We believe God and his sovereignty decided to give human beings choice and God certainly has that prerogative and we believe he's exercising that So like Chuck said at the end of the day if we go to hell

It's gonna be because of our choice not because God somehow said you're in and you're out and again, you know

There's those that hold different perspectives on this but when you look at the totality of Scripture It's sort of hard to get away from it

First Timothy 2 forces he desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth Well, if he desires that how come all people aren't saved?

Well, there's something in the way and that's us in sin And in the end of the day God convicts us by the power of the

Holy Spirit to show us our need for Christ But we make the call whether we're in or we're out and we're the ones that use whether we're gonna serve

Christ Accept him or reject him. So Don't worry about this, you know Predestination things that some people are talking about.

It's it's we don't believe it's scriptural at all Yeah, we're not gonna actually deal with any of the texts that actually talk about predestination and but we're just gonna tell you it's your call

God's voted for you. The devil's vote against you. You get the tiebreaker, etc Etc. And the same again the reason

I didn't break in there toward the end first Timothy 4 is like again How many times we dealt with it and they never listen there's gonna just keep rolling it on Just keep saying it over and over again.

And and when you challenge them, I you're just getting too deep in Scripture It's just a plain meaning, you know it's just all through the text and this is the the

Dave hunt George Bryson Chuck Smith mantra and Though it still requires them to constantly miss a

Matthew 2337 It's an amazing thing. Let's let's go over to Caller over in California.

Hi Patrick. How you doing? How you doing? Dr. White? Oh Well, I'm sort of half a bubble off today,

I'll be pretty honest with you we almost didn't do the program today because a little less than two hours before the program

My son called to inform me that his friend had called from our neighborhood and my house was on fire so I go rushing home and everybody goes rushing home and thankfully it was it was outside and I'm a little concerned because it may have been set

But no major damage anything like that, but it's it really throws you off just a just a half a bubble

When you go racing home thinking that you know wondering what you're gonna find when you get there. So Absolutely.

I'm surprised you're you're even here, but hopefully this phone call will edify you a little bit Well, well

Patrick some some some dividing line devotees Would just their their entire weekend would be ruined if I did not do the program today

So that's what we just had to do it Yeah, I think I would be one of those people but let's let that go

The reason I'm calling Dr. White is because I actually was led to the doctrines of grace from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa With with pastor

Chuck Smith. Yes, and you raised the question before the break. I wonder what these people say to people

Who are coming across these scriptures? Well that that very thing happened to me I I was born again my first church that I got into because it's very

I'm sure, you know, Southern, California It's very popular for people who are listening around the country

It's hard to explain how popular Calvary Chapel is if you're in the Southern, California area. It's like McDonald's Everywhere to just sort of put that into perspective.

It is it is a it's a big thing So it's very common. If somebody's going to go to church, they just find their local

Calvary Chapel and go well anyways I was born again and and God had really put it on my heart, too

I just wanted I had this thirst to know who Jesus Christ was and so I started reading the Bible and I made a huge mistake, dr.

White I got the idea of starting at the beginning starting in Genesis and working my way through and Very quickly going through Genesis.

I get confused about well, who is this God and by the time I got to the book of Isaiah, hmm,

I I was so Confused because but in Isaiah God makes simple statements about himself.

Mm -hmm in plain English I am the God that does these things actually I think you did in plain Hebrew, but I Well, you know

Yeah, and so it was extremely confusing to me and of course as a young believer I assume that the problem is with me.

I I give the benefit of the doubt. Well, you know These guys have been have been Christians for years and years.

I'm a new believer I must not be understanding what's going on and so I got the opportunity to set up a counseling session a session where I could ask ask questions on Wednesday night with an associate pastor there and The answer

I made a list of the passages. I was really struggling with Isaiah 45 all sorts of things from the

Old Testament and the answer I got was Jesus Christ died on the cross so that God wouldn't have to be like that anymore and Whoa that absolutely

Well, was that was that like a massive dispensational response it it As a new believer dr.

White all I can tell you is that I walked out of that room With my faith so shaken because I knew

I had been born again I knew that the Holy Spirit had done this work in my heart But it left me thinking that Christianity is fake

I Couldn't believe the response. I just didn't know what to do and You know

God used this troublemaker on the internet. I came across this this channel called lanes blog and And there's this feisty

Baptist preacher with a sermon called have you ever heard Romans 9 This grumpy preacher from Arizona, yes, yes, and grumpy

Mmm, I I can only tell you the minute I heard about reformed theology That it was okay to let the

Bible speak for itself and not dismiss it It was like weights like being set free.

Mmm weights being lifted off of off of my chest and Initially I wanted to talk to my friends in Calvary Chapel and let them know what

I discovered That there was another way of approaching scripture where you didn't have to excuse it all the way

You didn't have to throw out the Old Testament. You didn't have to Constantly be butting up against it You could accept when

God says that he is the sovereign God who writes all of history and that no one can even speak or act outside of his decree that you can believe it and I'll tell you what it

I immediately it was like I was not in the club anymore Calvinism is viewed as a as a danger

They felt like I was treated almost as you would expect somebody in the Jehovah's Witnesses Listen, he's been bamboozled.

He's a he's in a dangerous thing. He's in a he's in a cult and And and eventually by the providence of God that that that That good young man

Wayne Chaplin ended up moving down the street for me and got me in a Calvinist Church praise God for that and and the rest is history.

But yeah, I just wanted to let you know That's the answer I got. Yeah, the answer I got is that Jesus Christ died on the cross

So God wouldn't have to be like that anymore that that's I you know, I know that whoever said that Did so out of a ignorance born of tradition rather than biblical likes of Jesus But the scary thing is when

I think about church history, that was sort of the answer that the Gnostics gave You've got the

Old Testament God and now you've got the New Testament God and everything's changed And it just frightens me that that people would not see what it is

They're saying when they make a statement like that. So if this didn't happen all that long ago, then you may have never heard the

Series I did where I played George Bryson's sermon that he delivered to Calvary Chapel pastors sort of trying to warn them

About well people like you. No, I haven't heard that. I would be very interested too.

Oh, yeah About two years ago rich, I I'm sorry. Yeah. Well ask

I'll go we'll ask I'll go and channel There's a fellow in channel that remembers Everything I've ever said and when

I said it and it's a little bit frightening and very scary to me In fact, but I have nightmares about it But I'll go might remember exactly when we did that series because I don't know

I did it for about two to three weeks I played a sermon he had delivered at a

Calvary Chapel pastors a conference on dealing with with Calvinists And it's sort of their

Inside way of you know, here's how to recognize it. Here's how to respond to it type thing And that's not really how whoever gave you the answer they gave

That's not what he suggested. But again, I mean how many people especially at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa?

How many how many people go to that church? Oh, I mean, yeah, it's a huge congregation and and that's the original

That's the central church that's the Vatican for the Calvary Chapel movement No question about it and it is it is quite interesting.

Well, I'm glad you got hooked up with Wayne and And you hopefully found a good good church to be a part of their locally and you know that like I said so many times

This is this is something that Calvary Chapel has brought on itself because Calvary Chapel does something very very right

It points people to the Bible as the Word of God and says study it and read it

Then when you get to this one area all of a sudden the tradition lights start going off the sirens start sounding the warning bells start clanging because Whenever you run into man's traditions all of a sudden what you'd normally do with anything else and we're talking about the resurrection

We're talking about justification whenever we go to the word we go to the word but not there that's the key way of recognizing when people's traditions are getting in the way and that's

That's what has happened there and Certainly after my debate with George Bryson, I'm not sure if you've heard that one

Yeah, but after that I had all sorts of young Calvary Chapel guys going keep it up. Keep it up We need to we need to be here in this we need to you know

We are out here and we love our churches and we're trying and and so I know it's caused quite quite a problem

But I'll keep causing that problem all I can if I if I possibly can Because it's just just a matter of going the

Word of God let it speak for itself So well praise God and and you know, I just want to give a you know, give that testimony that Man, it really matters preaching to people that are under man -centered traditions

When when you win them over to reform theology, it changes everything Oh sure And in case in case

Calvinists are out there listening and they're wondering, you know Is it worthwhile since these people are already professing Christians?

Is it worthwhile even even having discussions and risk offending them with the doctor yes

Because it changes everything in their life your your your complete view of God and your view of man

Everything changes it does it does I can tell it has for you Patrick. Thanks a lot for calling today. All right

Thank you. God bless. Okay. Bye. I Love that. That's that zeal. It's it's good to hear.

Let's get one more call -in before the end of the program today Let's talk with Robert. Hi Robert Hey, how you doing, dr.

White doing good. I'm sorry to hear about your house. That's uh, No, no major damage.

I'm gonna do some painting and some some washing and stuff like that But no, nothing nothing major.

Thankfully, I wouldn't be shocked if it somebody did do that though Cuz I think you upset enough Calvary Chapel Calvary Chapel guy myself too if I could say that Anyways, my question was about on Hebrews 6.

I've been studying the text because I'm going to be teaching it at my church Not this Sunday, but the coming

Sunday and I kind of came to some of my own conclusions. I'm reformed I believe in the perseverance of the

Saints and everything But I was wondering what your take was on what the writer means when he says

That they cannot be renewed again to repentance. I'm just wondering your take on that Well that there is a sermon on Hebrews 6 at prbc .org

if you want to hear my my presentation on Hebrews 6 sometime It's if you go to prbc .org

and then go to the sermons page and then there's a not Sunday Sunday school But the there's other sermons listed if you go down there

You'll find a series I did on Hebrews 6 7 8 9 and 10 and there's a whole sermon just on on Hebrews 6 so that'll that'll be obviously a little bit more polished presentation than what

I can do in just a few minutes we have in the program today, but obviously, I look at Hebrews chapter 6 within the context of the of the entire book and and that is it is a apologetic to those who are being called to go back to the old ways to go back to the ways of Judaism and it's that's

I'm preaching through Hebrews right now. I'm just now coming up to Hebrews 4 I was thinking about doing Hebrews 4 and 5 this weekend, but there's just there's just no way

I'm gonna be able to do that with Just the way things are but anyways And so once you get to Hebrews chapter 6

You have already dealt with a number of warning passages and so you've already dealt with the reality of the fact that there are those who give in to that call and That's go back and they offer the sacrifice so one of the reasons it seems to me that this book is clearly pre 70 in its origination is it you would think there'd

Be some mention someplace of the temple no longer existing as far as not having a place to go to make sacrifice

But it's just not there So be it as it may Clearly that you've already dealt with the fact that there have been some

Apostates and It always devolves down to what is the nature of an apostate?

I don't think I've ever met anyone who denied that there were people who go back But what is the nature of those people and obviously there's only only really two ways of looking at them either they are people who

Participated in the life of the body and as such looked like us and talked like us and and they may have experienced moral

Reformation Being amongst the people of God, I think that's what this description is here in chapter 6 when it talks about Enlightenment and tasting a heavenly gift and they've been they've been amongst the people of God.

They've they've heard the good word of God They've they've been maybe morally reformed by so doing and and You know,

I don't want to get into specifics, but I can think of people in my own experience in Christianity and in the church

That if you had asked me to name the people Yeah, I was most certain of that that person might have been one of them and today

They don't even make a profession of faith in Christ and that that is a sobering thing To have experienced and only a young believer hasn't experienced those things, but then it makes the very

You know doesn't even describe the nature of the falling way It just simply says and then have fallen away It is impossible to renew them again to repentance and say again crucify themselves the

Son of God and put him to open shame That's to be understood in the context of the offering of the sacrifice and I think it's the same context you have in first John it is a it is a repudiation of The sacrifice of Christ that he was who he claimed to be that he was in fact

The Lamb of God is repudiation of all of those things. And so if you're asking what does it mean to restore them again to repentance?

I Think what it's what it's stating And I'm not sure if what you're asking is does that mean it's impossible for such a person to ever be saved

Or it does is it in insinuating that they'd experienced real repentance?

Before that, I'm not sure which direction Yeah, basically the conclusion I've come to is that by abandoning all that gospel blessing that they had been a part of That's the means that God grants repentance, you know being reformed

Believing in the effectual call we believe that God can grant anybody repentance But is it the fact that they received, you know had been blessed, you know all that gospel and then now they've abandoned that There's no other means that God will bring them to I think

I think you touched on something very good there and just very briefly because the music's in the background, but I think when you look at the the unpardonable sin and what made it unpardonable it was the identification the

Spirit of God as Being evil and it's the Spirit of God that is a means that brings true repentance

So I think you're on the the right track there in seeing it in that way And unfortunately the music's there.

So take a listen to that sermon I think I went through a little bit more of it a little bit more slowly at that point PR BC org, okay

Okay. Thanks Dallas. Thanks Robert in Dallas. Thanks listening to the dividing line. We're out of time.

We'll see you next Tuesday. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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