Sam Waldron and Richard Barcellos

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White. And morning, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning beautiful Tuesday morning here in the Valley of the Sun.

We are living up to our name. The cold weather is gone mid 70s. Through most of the week, it's actually gonna become frigid at the end of the week down to the upper 60s for the high. So, but when I see the air thing On there that that worries me because you know, I don't know if that if that person's on the air or not.

Hopefully they're not in the air yet. Good. It's just blue. I've never seen a blue air thing before but that's okay. We are doing the dividing line today, we will do it again Lord willing on Thursday and Next Tuesday, but not next Thursday Starting the 27th.

We got a little problem. Got something I need to do the 27th and then heading off heading off to jolly old England on the 31st and I'm not sure How This is gonna work. I would assume That there probably won't be any way on the second for people to listen live To the two debates that I'll be doing that day one the morning one the evening both Broadcast there will be broadcast live, but they'll be broadcast live in the UK and I My recollection is that the unbelievable radio broadcast is not Live on the air live on I'm sorry.

Yeah, it's recorded and then play to the later point. So I'll just let you know when that's going to going to air. Normally, it's a couple weeks after a week or two something like that after you do it Revelation TV might be might live stream.

I don't know I really honestly don't know that my recollection is last time. I had to post the video of The program I was on but both will be on the King James only subject so that'll be on the second and Then we're gonna be bouncing around Lord willing Dublin Glasgow then back to London for a debate on the 12th with Bassam Zawadi and Then back on the 14th.

So two weeks away Will we get some dividing lines in there? Don't know. I Just right now I cannot know what my schedule is going to look like for example Thursday Going up to Dublin don't know what my internet connection situation is going to be like anything like that and I know the next Thursday I'm traveling and One of the Tuesdays I'm in Glasgow.

I might have a stable enough connection to do something by Skype I just there's just no way of knowing Until I get there, so we'll see we'll see what happens till then. We'll just have to We'll just have to fly turrets and fan out.

I Think we could I think there might be a room over there for a sleeping bag we could probably yeah, it might be room right over there right next to the ball for a sleeping bag and we'll just bring turrets and fan out and He's going really no, not really, but Maybe we can maybe we can try to Work something out to where at least have one live program in there If I just can't work it out when I'm traveling.

We'll see we will see. I have been doing a lot of traveling and In fact, that's what brings us to our program today. I have some guests. I don't I was such I'm such a bad host That I did not even think through.

Because I'm just assuming knowing these guys. They're so talkative that You know, I'm probably just to be able to ask one or two questions and probably go do some work in the other room or something like that.

But I didn't even think through whether we were just gonna you know to ask them. When do you want to finish up? Do you want to do five minutes? Do you want to do the whole hour? What do you want to do?

You know, I don't know. It's lunchtime back in Owensboro. So they they might want to do five minutes I don't know but I Am very glad to be joined today by two very important folks that I got to meet with just last week when I was back in in Owensboro and so if you want to sort of get a get a get a facial recognition of these folks then pastor Sam Lee Waldron PhD the academic dean of the Midwest Center for Theological Studies has joined me along with Pastor Richard Brassellus the administrative assistant to the Dean.

I love those nice long titles. So they're so big and by the way Barcelou this picture of you here. How old is that? I Think we took it last week. I don't think so. I'm sorry because first of all you weren't weeks ago I first while you're wearing a suit and a tie and I don't know.

It just looks it looks like it's you know a little bit a little bit older than that But Sam looks the same you haven't you have an age Sam. You're doing all right. Barcelou's doing all the all the all the aging for the team back.

Well People like to know who they're talking to or hearing speaking or something like that I suppose so you can you can go to MCTS Owensboro org and find out more about their work. But I'd rather find out from from the folks how long I'll let you guys fight over who gets to answer the questions.

But how long has MCTS been in operation now?

We've been in operation. This is Sam by the way. We've been in operation since the fall of 2005. Okay, and.

The Origins and Purpose of MCTS

Give us give us some background. Why what was. What was the drive to. I mean aren't aren't there enough theological seminaries out there?

Well, there certainly are a lot of Seminaries out there and on seminaries out there. Theological education and. The other the other thing though is that one of the distinct a local church card to get together?

Right, right. In fact, I believe that's the the symbol the the the shield. Tries to tries to sort of indicate that as well now. It's not easy to get things going with something like this. Everybody wants to do something like this.

Everybody will sit back and agree. But there's got to be some type of driving force and some people to put some quote-unquote boots on the ground. So so obviously this would be something that you would have wanted to have been doing for a while.

What finally what finally got everything going? Well Now now that church would be The heritage. Right, okay. Yeah, not everybody would be familiar with that now that I was a little surprised. You know for for Reformed Baptist type folks, that's a that's a big congregation.

Well for Reformed Baptist churches, that's that's Certainly one that is a little bit on the larger side for most of our churches.

And down here almost 40 years ago now, right? Yeah, that's.

Long-term leadership, but what a wonderful blessing that is on a church. So you get things started you're you're attracting students and things like that. Whatever got in your mind to get to get Richard Brassellus involved with all of this.

I got in their minds so that they might get me to come here. I say I served on the board from the inception and. After one or two board meetings, I I remember calling one time and said You guys are in a dilemma.

If you build it they'll come but you can't build it unless more students come. You have to have. You have to have funding. You have to have. You have that a lot of things. You have to have more than just one professor.

You need to hold them. I said, you know, I think I think somebody just needs to roll the dice. Roll the dice. Well trust the Lord James you can't make the connection between those things.

Okay, well I can make the connection. I I just you know, I can read the Book of Mormon too, but it is.

Trust the Lord and extend themselves and move there and see if they can help help get it more established and developed and and. That was just a point in my life and my Christian ministry in California.

I needed a breath all the way from California. I'll be to come for about a year and a half and See what I can do. I'd like to finish my dissertation help the school get going and they haven't been able to get rid of me.

They they haven't been able to get rid of you since so the idea since you sent some efforts that direction or. Well, I got the feeling that the the resident students there Seem to for some reason seem to like both of you guys a lot.

So.

It's amazing, isn't it? Yeah.

Well for those who are listening going well, why are you talking about NCS? Well, that's where I was. The week for last. I've been traveling so much that it's it's hard to realize that's already. The week before last but I had an opportunity of seeing these folks up close and personal.

So I want to let folks know what's going on back there now. Looking at the the resident faculty page here on the website. There are some some questions I'd like to ask so sort of help give people an idea of who you guys are and and what what kind of Education they might be looking at in in under your tutelage.

Sam you've written some some interesting books. Probably best known at least I don't know. I don't know what your your best-selling book is or stuff like that. But I certainly you. How long ago do you write the modern exposition of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith?

How long ago was that? Yeah, that wrote it in 1989. Boy, there's a lot you could want to know faith that isn't in here one way or the other people need to know what's in here. He's nine. That's been imprint.

But. Well, I was gonna say when it comes to the term infamous.

When I think of the end times made simple and then your recent MacArthur's Millennial Manifesto a friendly response. Have you ever found your picture, you know, maybe being displayed on that. Out here, it's the channel I never mentioned a specific TV channel, but it's been between 20 and 22 and.

It's it's the Trinity broadcasting network, you know, and I just I mean I'm certain that that you've had to turn them down over and over again. I'm sure they're constantly contacting you and asking you to come on discuss Eschatological issues.

Is that the case?

No, you know actually I really wouldn't know. Yes, I guess but one. Oh, but if I want to know what the world's doing.

But wouldn't they find your eschatology. Just I mean you and and I bet you and Tim LaHaye are BFFs on Facebook. What do you guys know?

I'm so behind the times that I can't even remember what BFF means. At any rate. No, we're probably not.

So you were willing see I I'll be perfectly honest with you I Don't do eschatology. I just I I've tried to read the books. I've tried to get into it. I have my own views, but I Just I just can't do it.

And I'm very thankful that you that you did because there is just so much Emotion invested in that particular topic that I mean that that particular Contribution on your part is about as innocuous as my King James only controversy.

Okay, I mean, I mean talk about making people love you. That's just it. Did you realize that when you wrote it? Did you could you sort of see that coming down the pike?

Well, you know, you know, I tried to write it kindly and I'm and yet and yet was coming. Anyway, yeah, you can no matter how kind you try to fix it. Oh, yeah, and what kind of reaction have you gotten?

Sam the first page. Doesn't it say something like how can everybody else be so kind? That's all that taught me a lesson actually. It'll take a closer look at that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I know it's kind of controversial to read the actual context of that statement of the book.

I'm putting it in the mouth on what most people believe. How could everyone be so wrong when you put it on a title page?

Well, I can certainly understand the context but I one thing I have learned is that when someone's criticizing your book Generally context has become irrelevant to them at that point. Anyway, so. The very plea to to have it put in a context doesn't make much sense.

So was it the fact that so many people had read had read the end times made simple? Is that what prompted you to? Put on the asbestos suit again and respond to John MacArthur's Shepherd's Conference sermon.

Misguided and Impressionism Important issues. And of course since it happened at a conference where you had a lot of reform people.

And it was in the context as I recall that if you if you're a self-respecting Calvinist then then you should hold this viewpoint. So it certainly got certainly got folks talking about it with one exception I want everyone to note there was one exception to the everybody was talking about at rule and that was yours truly.

Yeah, that's right I I'm I left it everybody else. So Sam, do you have anything on the on the burners now are is there is there a book? Waiting in your nimble fingers or what? Do you specifically? Take aim at or address the the the rampant popularity of the non lordship.

No repentance type gospel amongst evangelicals.

Today now I deal with be planted tree illustration and just open it and then I look forward to that because that.

That continues to be. I think one of the biggest problems in many evangelical churches is is that form of cheap? Grace easy believe ism. No repentance. I see how it fits in our minion ism. It just doesn't make a slightest bit of sense in a reformed understanding the gospel at all and certainly no biblical.

So so Richard Brassellus you I just posted a video on my on my blog a couple days ago. That's proves that you and I actually have met and We've sat in the same room and and stuff like that. I I was shocked when I saw that video, by the way.

I just look terrible. I mean talk. Why didn't you though? I didn't you mentioned. I was just glowing like.

Like I don't know what it was. Just this is terrible. We saw that we thought you looked a lot better than you did during.

The week. Oh, well, thank you. I Appreciate that. Wow, that was what. Okay. What do you want to throw into the middle of this? Mr. Pierce now? I have something to say here because every time we turn a camera on you.

Uh-huh. You glow pal. It doesn't matter. Well, not like this. This was this was like somebody had poured Corn oil on my head or something. I mean, it was just we we continually say can we put a little bit of no?

No, no, you're not coming anywhere near me. Oh. People come near me with powder all the time. I just I just couldn't believe this. I think it was a setup I thought I was gonna blame Jeremy, but I the way that Barcellos is laughing.

I think he was behind it as well. So, yeah, I just really appreciate you guys doing that. That'll be great we get the last one we did to where I sat there enduring your your slings and arrows and insults and I just returned them with love and kindness and brotherly brotherly compassion and I was really nice.

So anyway. You are even less popular I think if If Sam is is unpopular with certain crowds for his on millennial defense Your book in defense the deck log, I mean, are you a seventh-day Adventist or something or what?

No, sir, no. Don't you like that introduction there Richard? Come on. Let's see how you handle it. Let's see how you handle it now.

Well, I'm not handling it very well because of the Preparation you gave me yesterday. Yes. I want everybody to know this. I was preparing yesterday. I wanted to know what we're gonna talk about right.

And a text to Phoenix and it goes to. James White says. What are we going to talk about? Mm-hmm. He replied a couple minutes later. It was very helpful, by the way. Yes religious stuff. Yep.

What is what is non-specific about that. Come on. That's fairly straightforward. We're talking about religious stuff and so on. Yeah, it narrows it down. Yeah, it does. So I'm asking you. I mean you wrote you defense the deck log.

I mean Ten Commandments aren't the only people who are in the Ten Commandments a bunch of you know.

Seventh-day Adventists or something like that? Well, yeah today a lot of people think that unfortunately and There's a long history behind why I think that's happened. But she for reformed theology The Ten Commandments have been seen as into both Old and New Testament theology and also and the doctrine of justification Itself so there's a lot of things connected to it.

But I I wrote that book to respond to a very small evangelicalism among Calcuss the issue of New Covenant theology, which which has changed since then to bring the position to bear light on those issues and.

Now for folks for folks in the audience. And we get new listeners all the time. For folks in the audience. And. How long ago was it by the way? Just just I'll take a brief sidestep here. We had a discussion about this subject on this program a number of years ago.

And we're both of you on at that time. It's been just me is. Three or four years ago because I had moved here. So and I was here when I did it. Okay. All right.

It's hard for me to remember after all the years, you know, what program and what year and things like that but wasn't that the program that Resulted in one of your students contacting you who has since then Been involved with the with the school.

Was that what you were talking about before I spoke?

Yeah, I'm not sure which program it was. I think you had both of us on one time and we had a student. Well, it wasn't a student at the time. He was actually in the Air Force Stationed in Japan and he was listening to the dividing line.

And a few weeks later. From him and about six months later. He got out of the military and moved to Owensboro, Kentucky became one of our ended up married and marrying a single gal here.

Well, it's best that he married a single gal that that. That's a good positive step there, but.

We're talking about here so we. Utah. He married a single woman. Okay, we got it. Morality of women. We got it. We figured it out.

So Seem one of my one of my hopes honestly is that who knows I get I get people contacting me all the time Who are saying look, I'm not sure where I'm going in life. I Want to do education. I wanted I want to learn more.

I want to get a foundation, but man, you know it's so difficult in light of my family situation or the financial situation wherever else it might be and A lot of folks just just don't know what the options are out there.

So who knows maybe we can we can bring somebody else who's out in the military right now and get ready to get out or something. I'll go. Hey, I need to look up MCTS Owensboro org and see what these guys are doing.

But back to the subject of the defense the deck log explain if you could briefly. You said you you really did have something you were seeking to respond to In in the book and there's a lot of confusion it's almost like the position you're responding to has Taken the high ground of terminology by its own self-described terminology.

I mean who wants to say something negative about New Covenant theology. I mean really come on the New Covenant. That's that's great. It's awesome. It's wonderful. Why are you so down on the New Covenant Richard?

Remember he married a single woman. I was talking with someone yesterday. Let me look at it. It's five or 26. Okay, hey there's that the book didn't attack Ecolog or Ten Commandments as a con grounded and create left in Jeremiah 31 33 when it says through the prophet I will write my law on their heart right on the hearts of all the citizens and argue for was.

Was the perpetuity. That's the history in the Ten Commandments New Covenant theology relation of the West Protestantism and prior to the Reformation Roman Catholic summits and that if we try to even take one commandment out of it unravel.

So that was my my way of arguing for put the wedge between ethics under the old and ethics under the new. That's Unnecessary. Something in common with Old Covenant Jews just like we have something in common Let's create the image of God.

But it was that that common theme of law written on the heart and then revealed in Scripture to argue for the well.

We'll take a look a little bit more at that and maybe some of the ramifications that but we actually have a caller that I think Might need to help clarify some of some of the statements that have been been made here.

Let me let me see if we can get all three on on the air here. Oh, that's that's really loud so a Fellow by name of Michaels on the air Michael. Did you did you have a comment you want to make?

Yes, it feels like deja vu for me because it was about 2006 that I was listening to both these gentlemen in Japan.

Talking your show that. Well, well, we don't want we don't want to start a rumor that MCTS is anti-patriotic or anything like that, but. But so you were. You were listening to the dividing line in Japan and heard these two guys and you still went to Owensboro.

Listen to you for so long. I thought well if dr. White is having them on their show, and he's not disagreeing with them. Then they must be pretty good. So I said check him out.

Actually actually Richard Richard just knows too much about me so I have to be nice to him. I know no one can tell that but yeah, that's that's the real reason. But no, I I. Honestly Michael first of all, let me thank you for your contributions To the online class.

Let me explain to the audience if you're not catching some of this when when I taught the module on polemics In Owensboro, I really like the setup there. I like the I like the intimacy of the class, but there is also an online component.

There were people who were online and Michael my understanding is you were having some some physical issues. I hope those are going well for you, but you weren't you weren't able to to be in class, but you were online and I very much appreciated the Participation because the students online can ask questions and you were posting stuff you had pulled up.

For example, the the section from surah 7 172 to 170 once anyone's on 172 on the me Thaq In the Quran and and things like that. So I I very much appreciated the the participation that you that you had there and I've been told.

That's and I don't know if I've had anything to do with this. But I've been told that you have a real interest in textual critical issues and and maybe pursuing further studies in that area. Is that where you're headed?

That's my goal Lord willing if I can get there. Always made fun of me because in Greek class he'd say I do my my. My devotion from the footnotes of Dan Wallace criticism and your book particularly on the King James only controversy.

Just kind of got me started. So right now I'm soon as I finish up my Masters here Lord willing. I'm gonna try and get to Scotland University of Edinburgh to study with the dr. Larry Hurtado. Oh, yes. It's a well-known in that field as he is and see if to see what can go from there.

But that is the direction I'm heading. Wow.

Well, you know whenever I hear anybody say something like that and I'm certain that you have gotten good advice From the the gentleman on the phone with me here who both obviously know you well Whenever I hear somebody say something like that, maybe it's just my flesh maybe it's a lack of faith and trust or something like that, but I just automatically want to say to somebody, you know When I don't care what you're studying, but especially in that field You really really need a firm firm footing in in in a well-balanced Church and a well-balanced Christian life because It just there's just so much unbelief so much rampant Secularism and humanism even within which calls itself Christianity in those areas that There's just there's just such a need for a vital spiritual life.

When you are spending a lot of time in the footnotes and and hey, that's the way I was I mean my Greek professor had the same complaints I was always looking down at the notes and he was wanting me to be looking at the text a little bit more often and and I understand that fascination and and hopefully I have used that to the benefit of Of the church, but I would just just encourage you with with every fiber of my being to Stay strong and balanced even in the midst of that of that study because there's just so much There's so much unbelief listen to what anybody says I don't care who they are from a presuppositional perspective Examine the foundations because it's just so important.

Absolutely in that same note. Give a plug for them CTS because having gone there and gone through it almost all their Pretty much everything they've. They've offered out that MCTS because it is so church or saying in your polemics class.

You can't be foundation. That's how the church ought to be run and I feel like it. Or theology and from that my wife. Loves me after we got married. I asked her to take a trip with me to North Carolina to listen to dr. David Parker sexual criticism.

7 blue hardback cover Greek New Testament in there and said if you believe that Paul wrote these words, you're crazy. Really? Not because.

Well, and it's such a tragedy that so much of the funding that goes into that field of study now Came from from God fearing people setting, you know. Giving and sacrificially building institutions in the past that now have been taken over by those Who don't believe those things and it.

It's sad to hear that especially because you know, I know Bart Ehrman's position and from Ehrman's position. Hey, we're just tinkering as far as the original text is concerned. Is DC Parker that far removed from from her at that point?

Did he provide any kind of of mediating? context that kind of statement.

Not really. It was a very surface level just because it was the freshman class and We looked around half the kids were asleep and my wife even noticed that one girl was on our computer looking at wedding dresses.

It wasn't really Deep a lot of his argument. He he took little like vein diagrams. That's almost just 400 AD the the text of the manuscripts were actually actually to one another. They didn't veer very far off, but then we just make the statement, but you know before 200.

That's when all the changes took place. So we really can't know he would just kind of throw blanket statements out there. Hmm and and not back anything up, but I did ask him. I wanted to see how far you would push it.

I know you're saying this in regards to the New Testament text. I know what what has been said for any work of antiquity and he said yes. Yeah, so that just kind of well. Yeah, that is antiquity. Then what are you arguing for here?

Why are you doing what you're doing would be a question.

It's a silly me to think that you should actually be doing something you actually love doing and believe in but. So so what so you've you studied under both of these gentlemen? Here's here's your big chance.

Why. And now and since you said you're almost done. This isn't gonna affect your grades. Anyways, so, you know, you're pretty safe now, but. If someone if someone is wants to pursue Their education. What what have you found to be the greatest blessing of being able to do so through MCTF?

Stop the top of my head. The first was that you have with your professors who are also your elders At you to their home who will go out and play basketball. When I was able to once upon a time I'm Getting to know getting to know them for me.

And just think how they function how they work how they're thinking and that did our elders of the church as well. They're thinking about the church and how what they're doing in the body and and Even if they're looking out around owns and theology in the context of a church here in Utah, which is you know There are not too many good churches here that Ecclesiology was almost non-existent and we're talking about before basis to Having gone to heritage here in Utah for a little church.

I'm at In not only helping them times and I'm able to more focus know your professors elders in. Well, you know, it's unfortunately.

Extremely rare in my experience. Anyways that someone Completes, you know attends a school completes a degree. Whatever the situation might be and their testimony is that after doing all of that they have a higher view of the local church than when they went.

In my experience is unfortunately in a lot of Theological education that the result of the theological education is a diminishment of the attachment one has to the church not a Strengthening of it and I think that's one of the main problems.

And and Sam Richard If either you'd like to comment on that that that has been one of my main problems. With how we how we have decided to do theological education is that we we take somebody. We disrupt their life.

We pull them out of the church that has nurtured them. We ship them off someplace. We in debt them to their eyeballs and then kick them out into a cruel world. With a huge debt hanging over their heads and Basically all alone.

Here start start on your own here. And and we wonder why we would we end up creating an entire legion of a computer tax as a result. Any any comments either of you'd like to add to them? Right, right.

Yeah, quite true. I it's it. I've got a whole sermon on this, but I'm going to avoid it. But anyway, Michael, thank you very much for for joining us today. Okay, thank you. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye.

Cooperative Theological Education and the Value of the Local Church

All right, if you would like if you have any questions about Now this this module we were doing was actually being was a part of three different schools together. How does how does that work? How do you work together with with with other other schools like that?

Cooperation has time. James, you know that The Institute the seminary started up, right? Yes. Uh-huh. Okay. Well this course was actually Curriculum I see where but they want to offer to pastors. Take them just didn't like James White family a contact with on it.

And that's how this really seminary from turret utilize it as well other things behind the scenes to plug the three in. Oh, yes.

I I just just the fact that there is that Cooperation that level of cooperation and that desire to To bring folks together. That that was extremely encouraging to me to see that and I wish we could see more of that more of that in the future but if anyone the audience 877 -753 -3341 if you have some questions about MCTS or you know, hey, I think that's pretty much any Eschatological question whatsoever we can we can throw it Sam's direction and Hey, let me put it this way.

Everybody knows that when you call the dividing line with an eschatological question It's like you get the door slammed in your face. Okay, it's just richest just laughs and hits disconnect and and that's that's the end of that.

So this is your one shot folks. We've only got a few minutes left in the program. This is your one shot for someone who actually enjoys discussing eschatology. With dr. Sam Waldron, or if you you know, if you're one of those folks on the New Covenant side of things That thinks that it's now appropriate to marry your sister Call in and talk to Richard Veselas who would very much like to talk with you about the issue of New Covenant theology.

Hey, hey, you you and I both know there's a background to that particular statement you and I both know that That there are those who have taken this so far that if it's not repeated in the New Covenant, then it's okay and That that I think that sort of illustrates something big-time from my perspective which I said we'd get back to but I think I think it really does say something about that Jeremiah 31 passage and the fact that The law that is written upon the hearts isn't some new thing that Jeremiah would have gone.

Hey never thought of that and certainly the people listening to the To to those original words when they were uttered by the Prophet. I don't just don't think they would have come to those conclusions at all.

It's interesting on the one hand the law of Christ for Christians. We should inform them from the you know, and I have a question about that. What are we doing in light of the Old Testament? How do we know that disciplining children let the Old Testament?

Well, you know what?

The Law Written on the Heart and New Covenant Theology

Sam we have a caller for you. We've gotten a couple calls here and We actually have a call specifically for you from Jyoti in India. Jyoti is in India. Let's talk with Jyoti. Hi Jyoti. Hi there. How are you?

It should be. Good night or good evening. Good morning. This is quarter past twelve at India. Ah, yes.

Yes, you have a question for Sam Walden.

Yes, please. Look, I'm a convicted reform. Baptist was born in a brotherness. And brethren home Plymouth brethren home. Where the strong emphasis on pre-millionism was there pretty much with them with the line with John McArthur.

But after reading it made me to think. Chapel Library. I just wanted to find out. Is there any other books I should read on this subject? To get more convinced in another question if I can ask you question.