Today on the Dividing Line: Open Phones

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix Arizona this is the dividing line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence our host is

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Dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church this is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with Dr.

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White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States it's 1 877 753 3341 and now with today's topic here is

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James White open phones this afternoon on the dividing line 877 753 3341 877 753 3341 we've had a number of folks who've called in we had someone called in last week and then dropped off as I was about to go to them and I had a couple other people who've called in with various questions and since we were talking about other things or they got scared to death because I was melting down because I was reading absurd stuff on the internet whatever the reasons were or because I was playing a section of something you know whatever now's your opportunity to call in 877 753 3341 is the phone number there

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I've been investing a fair amount of time in the blog of late there been some very interesting at least

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I think very interesting discussions there concerning Islam there's a lot of stuff appearing on the web now not only the stuff concerning issues regarding the

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Muslim well the situation New Jersey whatever that situation was we don't know yet but the the situation there with the murders the family the

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Coptic Christian family and the responses at the very least the responses of many that have been documented on the internet to that those murders tells you a lot about the religion of peace anyways as people rather ironically identify it and so there's a lot of stuff out there if you know where to look and eventually even

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I'm smart enough to figure that out most folks find it a lot faster and then now we had

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Omar Bakri Mohammed's material that I posted yesterday Islam is the final revelation therefore those believing in it submit to Allah the only one worthy of obedience in every sphere of life to understand 9 -11 we must go back to Tawheed the exclusive worship of God in every sphere religious political social et cetera every human action must relate to this 9 -11 was undoubtedly an unpleasant moment for its targets or their relatives talk about an understate unpleasant moment

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Muslims and non -muslims but those committing it acted as a result of the predestined divine decree although God does give man free will ok whatever in the world that means but it's a lot of stuff out there if you know where to look and sometimes you don't really want to look but it it is available so all sorts of stuff obviously

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I recognize that people who defend some of the positions that I address on the blog or in writing or on the program

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I am I recognize that you may not want to expose yourself to calling into this radio program

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I do not necessarily call into very many radio programs myself the simple fact that the person there and has their finger on the button by the way

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I don't I think I'm actually gonna have that capability in the not -too -distant future if the equipment sitting over on those books over there is any indication but up this point in time

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I I have not had a button that I could use to cut somebody off even if I wanted to that's somebody else's job

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I'm just sitting here with a computer in front of me and a microphone and we just go from there but if you happen to believe that I have have gone over the deep end in responding to Dave Hunt I'd like to hear from you

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I'd like to hear someone defend what Dave Hunt has done in refusing to take responsibility for his own actions in refusing to take responsibility for his his errors his documented gross repeated errors of ignorance

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I I'd like to hear someone say you know what we there isn't any higher standard for a

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Christian there is no higher standard for someone who is involved in Christian apologetics and therefore you should give him you should cut him a break he's he's a nice elderly man and he tells nice stories and we should all just be nice to Dave and let

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Dave do whatever Dave wants to do Dave can publish all the books he wants and he can make stuff up and and use the most absurd argumentation on the planet but it's okay because once it's documented that he's wrong we just misunderstood him when he said that Spurgeon unequivocally denied limited atonement he didn't mean unequivocally he meant unequivocally in the sense of equivocally and that should have been obvious to all of us and when he said that the best translation of Acts 1348 was disposed themselves and that's what the

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New World Translation says and and that's the only committee if you can call it a committee translated published

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English translation I know that uses that as its main translation of the text he didn't mean to use the

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NWT he just didn't know what the NWT said and okay so he doesn't actually translate

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Greek so he couldn't really say it's the best one but you know look it's Dave we can just let Dave do that that that's okay and when he makes up mythical Hebrew texts based upon mythical references in the

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Dead Sea Scroll Dead Sea Scrolls and mythical early church fathers and mythical translations by mythical scholars that ends up with a mythical translation that just happens to be contrary to what the text actually means it's okay because he didn't mean it seriously anyways he was just suggesting that for further study so we need to have a a different standard because Dave's Dave and so if you'd like to defend that perspective the phone lines are open now's your opportunity 877 -753 -3341 we had a a

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King James only advocate come into channel and we tried reasoning with him some and and he first was asking it's like it's sort of like you know how for example the locust has a certain number of year cycle well it seems a

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Dan Corner has like a two -year cycle and like every two years all the sudden he he pops his head out of the ground and and spits at a few people and then disappears for a while and so we had a

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King James only guy come into channel and say hey I hear that James White won't debate

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Dan Corner and it's like www .aleman .org slash capital

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O -S -A -S dot html I should just have a a pop -up that just says that as soon as Dan Corner's name appears anywhere and there's a file that you can listen to over at Straightgate where I go through all of this stuff and document it all it's very very complete but anyway he of course as a

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King James only advocate was likewise very anti -reformed and as we try to talk with him things got warmer and warmer and finally the second day you know he just lost it and got himself kick -banned and so he started coming in trying to break the ban and and that White runs a tight ship on his radio program because he doesn't want anyone to expose his lies well you know

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I'd challenge that King James only advocate to give us a call let's find out let's let let's see if that's really the case because like I said

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I don't have a button here that's somebody else's job and you know obviously you start getting nasty or something somebody will take care of you but now that's that's not something

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I do I could actually use a little more volume because I start to disappear every once in a while I just go boop and I'm gone and I think it's because I'm right at the edge of the suppressor compressor tongue depressor thing whatever it is that we've got over there.

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I got a whole rack of electronic equipment stuff and and I keep getting told that the newest thing will that this will make it sound really really good and then the newest thing is gonna make it sound even even better and pretty soon

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I should sound like Pavarotti or something so that just would make people unhappy oh and before I start going to our phone calls they're just flooding in actually we have one got plenty of lines open before we go to our phone calls this weekend tomorrow in fact

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I head out to North Carolina and I honestly don't

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I'm I'm not completely zeroed in on exactly where I am

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I I know I'm in Rocky Mount at least that's where I'm speaking but I'm not exactly sure where I'm staying I know where I'm flying into and there's just I don't know about all that stuff but anyway on Saturday afternoon

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I'm gonna be addressing the DaVinci Code stuff and I was putting together a

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PowerPoint on it yesterday and and I realized I had I would have to spend what would

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I figure out that it was I had less than I had less than two minutes per slide in the time frame allotted and that ain't gonna work believe me

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I'm gonna go way over on that but anyway we have the DaVinci Code and the Emergent Church Movement on Saturday afternoon and I'm doing all the services on Sunday at Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Rocky Mount and will be seeing you folks there hopefully and look forward to that and then

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I'm actually getting a chance after that to do an interview with the folks who did the a lot of you have heard of I haven't gotten it yet but there is a

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DVD out on the history of Calvinism that everyone's raving about and the folks who put that together are putting together another one now on apologetics and I'll be meeting with them on Monday morning back there to to do a interview who knows whether it'll be worth having in the

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DVD or not but that's we're gonna be doing so a little visit to the

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Cooler Climbs back in North Carolina over this weekend if you're in that area we would look forward to seeing you either on Saturday afternoon or in the

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Sunday services there in Rocky Mount and please do not ask me where it is I haven't a clue.

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Once I get off the plane in Raleigh someone's driving me from there and that's that's pretty much it so at least

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I hope that's what's gonna happen I just realized hmm there's something about a rental car but hopefully

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I'm not gonna have to drive someplace because I have no idea where in the world I would be going that would be rather rather intriguing

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I'm sort of watching the channel here for a moment just simply because last week that's when all the stuff appeared and we ended up completely changing the direction of where we were going last week and if we don't get too many phone calls

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I may go ahead and go back and pick up the clip that we were playing in fact

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I'll fire up my my program here and load that that one up just in case we end up going back to that one we will see when we get there.

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877 -753 -3341 let's go ahead and start to clearing the board and let's talk with Adam.

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Hi Adam. Hello. Hello sir how are you? I'm doing alright. Hi Dr.

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White I met you down in Peoria and it was really nice to hear you speak. A lot of people were really impressed.

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Oh it's over the Reformation Sunday weekend. And I was the one that asked you about Luther and I told you

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I was doing a paper and I got a really good grade on it so I wanted to thank you for your help. Well good. And anyways

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I wanted to tell you that I heard your program with Chuck Chrismeyer and I thought it was going to be disastrous when

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I heard the program that he did with Dave Hunt and they were putting forth some really bad arguments and I said it's going to be disastrous when

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James gets on it because he's just going to blow this stuff out of the water and I seriously did it felt like Chuck Chrismeyer didn't know what he was talking about.

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Well now let me ask you did so Chuck did a program with Dave alone.

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I did not I'm going to have to go back through the archives and grab that one because my understanding of this program was going to be on, we were going to discuss specifically the

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Perseverance of the Saints and we ended up just going back to the subject of Calvinism as a whole we had sent in The Potter's Freedom and unfortunately he did not have the opportunity of reading it and so that didn't really help too much because I had to you know had to constantly be saying nope that's not what we believe either and nope not that's another misapprehension and just had to keep going over that and over that again again again and that's you know a little bit on the on the...

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Well, yeah some of those I had a question about Lutheranism and the means of grace because it's really weird the section of Lutheranism that my school belongs to believes in total depravity but they don't believe in limited atonement and one of the things they use is what

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I call the means of grace and they say that Christ can die for the whole world and he can get to salvation but that salvation can only be applied through the means of grace through what they believe the word and baptism of course are the two main ones and that can be strengthened through the

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Lord's Supper but they would say that Christ died for the whole world and he has this salvation in his hands and it is given to them through these pipelines called the means of grace and I wanted to know what do you think would be the strongest response to that type of perspective?

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Well, yeah there's all sorts of different perspectives within Lutheranism and there is clearly a what we would call a a sacramental perspective on the means by which grace is communicated through the sacraments and the means of grace is the term the

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Reformed Baptists use but when we refer to the means of grace we're talking about those things that God has ordained that through the church through the preaching of the word we would include both the

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Lord's Supper and baptism the teaching of the word the fellowship of the saints all of those things as quote -unquote means of grace but where we disagree is the idea of of almost an ex opera operato form of sacramentalism where you have the idea that by the mere action of the sacrament grace is communicated and certainly when you come to the issue of salvation itself there would be there would be no way that we speaking as a

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Reformed Baptist here would use the term means of grace to refer to the grace of salvation being communicated in a sacramental fashion through baptism the

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Lord's Supper things like that and so I don't know anyone quite honestly who who really unders...

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I don't think it's possibly put this way I don't think it's possible for anyone to actually present a consistent viewpoint of what

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Luther taught because Luther's teachings changed over time his emphases changed over time and in the context in which he was in changed over time and obviously what motivated him before 1525 became less important than what motivated him after 1525 which if you're not familiar this history is the

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Peasants Revolt and it seems to me that he was very very deeply impacted by that the

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Zwickau prophets likewise resulted in a major I think a major shift in in the directions he was going at that point in time and so you know unfortunately

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I think different strands of Lutheranism not only due to the the impact of Philip Melanchthon but but even going back to Luther himself

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I think different strands of Lutheranism emphasize different elements and as a result you have you know some fairly major differences between monergistic

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Lutherans and synergistic Lutherans and you have very anti -Calvinistic Lutherans and then you have other

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Lutherans that are not nearly as anti -Calvinistic as the other strand are and so all sorts of different perspectives that are that are represented there so clearly from the

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Lutheran viewpoint the idea of particular redemption is is I don't know of any

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Lutherans honestly I could be wrong about this because I've actually read a few statements from Luther that seemed to actually have a limiting effect upon the scope of the atonement so I mean you can find those but I don't see that has as having really communicated much with most the strands of Lutheranism itself and so you do have you know just a very different perspective at that point because of the the sacramentology and the the viewpoint that comes from from Luther on on those issues and so we come from a different perspective at that point

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Lutherans tend to think that that you know they like to say that Lutheran theology is focused upon Christ while Calvinistic theology both whether it be

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Presbyterian or that which I would hold is focused upon the sovereignty of God and I don't

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I don't think that that's a an accurate statement I don't think you can you can chop things up like that certainly the freedom of God and salvation is central to reform theology as in Calvinistic theology but you know that that that's an area of there's a lot of discussion in regards to Lutheranism and and obviously

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I don't believe that because because I believe in the union of the elect with Christ and this has been an issue that we've been discussing on on the blog and I would refer folks to John Murray's book

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Redemption Accomplished and Applied the chapter on union with Christ because I believe in substitutionary atonement and that the elect were joined to Christ in his death so his death and resurrection is their death and resurrection and that that is a a a union that Christ was aware of and and it was purposeful in his death

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I believe Christ knew the identity of the elect in his death and he died specifically in their place that part doesn't seem to be there in Lutheranism and hence the whole view that we would have of the atonement at that point and the idea of a hypothetical atonement over against purposeful atonement that's where we would we would part paths at that particular point

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It's starting to get confusing because I was talking to a Lutheran and he said that we believe that he died substitutionarily for everybody but he holds that atonement in his hands until it's given out to the means of grace.

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I mean anything Christ did basically has to be given out in the means of grace. I mean they can get around any argument like that just by saying well you have to have to be given out in the means of grace

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Well yeah well that's that's also how they they would explain the issue of specifically of how people might not receive the work of Christ and why they might be lost

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That's really how you end up with the idea or allowing for an idea of a non -sovereign decree of God in the sense of salvation.

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You end up by saying well yeah God did all these things however you still have to access these things through through the sacraments and that's where you end up running into some some major issues as you have as you have discovered yourself.

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Thanks Adam. God bless. 877 -753 -3341

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Let's go over to the left coast and talk with James.

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Hi James Hi James. Two questions for you for you to comment on.

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The T NIV, the gender neutral stuff and just comment on that translation or the controversy that's going on and then

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I was listening a few days ago to the White Horse Inn and Dr. Schuller's interview and I was really blown away.

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I tell you my heart went out to Dr. Schuller because I feel he was you know kind of late at night and he's older or something but boy

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I tell you the things he said about the wrath of God and he didn't even preach it that shocked me well

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I don't know if it shocked me but I kind of know where he's at on some things. Anyway comment on those two items if you will and I'll hang up.

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Okay well thanks for calling James. As far as the last one my heart went out to Mike Horton not to Robert Schuller for those who haven't heard it

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I don't know if they still have this going on but last week sometime if you made any donation dollar whatever to the

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White Horse Inn you could download the the tape of the program from the

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White Horse Inn from a number of years ago I don't remember how long ago it was. I remember I had gotten the tape way back then and the very use the term tape tells you something and I remember having been amazed listening to it then but I was even more amazed now because I could put myself in the position of Mike Horton and the way that Schuller treated him and just went after him and and this is terrible that she would ask me these difficult questions and all the rest of the stuff and it's like what did you think you were gonna you're gonna go on the air and and these people are gonna ask you questions about what you've put in print it was absolutely amazing and so that's still available and I would recommend it to you

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I put on the on the blog so that people could take a look at that and listen to it it is rather fascinating to to hear that many years after it after it was recorded of course but I don't believe that Robert Schuller was that old of a man at that time to to make a claim that well it's late at night and stuff like that come on you knew what you were you know what you're getting into and you went in there and you just anyways so that was that I was interesting as far as TNIV goes sadly

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I'm gonna have to disappoint a lot of folks here and say that I think the vast majority of that entire argument is well it's it's politics sorry but but it is do

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I support what the TNIV is doing there's some real problem renderings primarily in the book of Hebrews but realize that pretty much any modern translation has quote -unquote gender -neutral translations and what's gender neutral if you're not aware of this let me back up a second or this isn't gonna make any sense to you at all in the languages from which the

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Bible is translated the general cultural usage in the time of the writing was to utilize a masculine pronoun in the vast majority of instances when you're simply making reference to someone you would say he you would not say she unless you had a specific female in mind but a generic usage would be to use he and of course when

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I grew up that was the same in English was it not when you're making a generic reference you would use the masculine pronoun he well there has been for better for worse a movement within the

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English language originating primarily in Europe but it certainly exists in the United States to not go to a neutral rendering in the sense of it a neutered rendering but actually to trade off to switch back and forth between he and she which is to me just incredibly distracting just incredibly distracting

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I I've told the story before that I turned in the text to one of my books to a publisher who will remain nameless and the manuscript came back and I'm starting to read it and all of a sudden

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I run across she and immediately I stop and start looking for the antecedent

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I start looking for where did I refer to a woman why is it say she and that's when

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I realized that they had randomly replaced the generic use of he with she throughout the text of the book and I just simply circled every one and I said no not in my work this is

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I don't I don't agree that this is necessary this is distracting this is simply political correctness run amok there's just no reason for this and I struck them all out so that is the idea of trying to be you know any type of politically correct emphasis to this stuff

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I I just go sorry not not not worth it there's there's no reason for this but there are passages where the masculine is used in the original and yet the application is made to everyone for example when

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Paul talks about the the Lord's Supper he says let a man examine himself in regards to Lord's Supper well doesn't that mean let everyone are are women who partake our sisters in the

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Lord who partake Lord's Supper not under the teaching of the

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Apostle that they are to examine themselves and have the exact same attitude that men have when they partake

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Lord's Supper well I would think they would and so the idea of a gender -neutral translation or at least applying some level because if you want to see a truly gender -neutral translation go see the

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Oxford monstrosity that's what I call it came out in 95 the

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Oxford monstrosity it's based on the NRSV but then for example you don't have father

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God you have mother father God and you don't have the son of God you have the child of God that is gender neutrality taken to its absolute nth degree alright that's not what the

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TNIV is doing it doesn't say father mother God it doesn't say Jesus the child of God and and things like that but there are places where in addressing brothers it becomes brothers and sisters well that's they're not the first translation to do that but especially when we get in the book of Hebrews and see when it gets into those passages where male and female roles are distinguished or at least you could make a theological case that they're distinguished that's where the the real argument should be unfortunately the real argument rarely gets to that point at least as far as most people are concerned most the time the real argument is just these people are evil because they want to do this and those people are evil because they don't want to do this and and it sadly you end up people having people lining up on both sides and I wish the lines were not influenced by the fact that these major translations cost money and there is literally millions in fact

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I think I'd be safe to say tens of millions and probably hundreds of millions of dollars at stake in regards to new translations the

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Bible in English that shouldn't be that way we have enough we don't need new ones we don't need new translations the

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Bible in English all the money is going into that stuff should be put into providing translations in foreign languages and especially in languages don't yet have complete or good or accurate translations the

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Bible but that's what's happening I've gone past time to break I will continue the comments on the other side and continue taking your phone calls 877 -753 -3341 we'll be right back under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort

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Christian teaching on this behavior in their book the same -sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the

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Bible's teaching on the subject explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including

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Genesis Leviticus and Romans expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy defending and clarifying the

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Bible's message about homosexuality get your copy in the bookstore at almin .org

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Alaska the unspoiled land of nature and immensity both in its realities and its possibilities

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Alaska can stir our hearts and minds like no other place on earth join us this summer for the 2005

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Alpha Omega Ministries Alaskan cruise as we cruise the inside passage to the great land of Alaska with Dr.

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James White and Christian recording artist Steve Camp as they explore the great doctrine of Sola Scriptura for our guests the journey north is an odyssey of glorious landscapes and majestic wildlife as we sail on the luxury five -star

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Sun Princess by towering glaciers into some of the most remarkable points on earth all this and at prices beginning at $624 per person plus poor taxes and fees half the price of other offerings to Alaska with other groups contact us today at almin .org

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or 877 -SOV -CRUISE millions of petitioners from around the world are employing

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Pope John Paul the second to recognize the Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book

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Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and sites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic he traces how

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Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed

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Queen of Heaven viewed as co -mediator with Christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the

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Roman Catholic Church Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the

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Bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth you can order your copy of James White's book

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Mary another Redeemer at almin .org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church the Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God the proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church the elders and people of the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day the morning

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Bible study begins at 930 a .m. and the worship service is at 1045 evening services are at 630 p .m.

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on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805

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North 12th Street in Phoenix you can call for further information at 602 26 grace if you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC dot org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day welcome back to dividing line there goes

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Steve Camp we usher him out right as he gets that line every week if you'd like to hear him finish that song listen to his entire album anyway commenting on the

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TNIV I I've written a set of articles for the

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CRI journal on Bible translations and I I think folks will be a little surprised because basically

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I said was you know what there are a whole lot more good translations in our bad translations and what we really need what really gets people going is it for some reason we have accepted this idea that we should only have one that that we as English -speaking people you need to grab hold of your one and defend it at all costs so anybody else use another translation you're evil horrible and bad and and you question the person's theology and spirituality and everything else and actually

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I think you should have if you're not gonna take the time to learn the original languages which it's easier to do so today than it's ever been the past but if you're not gonna do that then you're going to want to have available to you multiple translations now that doesn't mean you can't have a a a base translation that you memorize from that maybe is the one that's primarily used at your church or something like that and certainly in a church it's good to have a consistent translation so people know what to expect and so that you can maybe even have public readings and and so on so forth and that's fine but in your personal study if you're not going to be studying the original languages then utilize the resources that are available to you

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I'm watching what's going on channel right now and it's interesting to to watch what people are saying everybody saying

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I'm NASB I'm ESV well I've many times said the ESV is the

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NASB minus semicolons and there's a lot of truth to that unfortunately CEV but the problem is comparing the

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NASB and the ESV isn't going to do you a lot of good why because there is a spectrum of translation and on the right hand side of the spectrum of translation you have formal equivalency the most literal translations and literal

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I mean by the form of the language not necessarily the meaning of the language because a literal rendering of the words may not result in an actual literal rendering of the meaning if you literally render an idiom in the original language into the receptor language which for us is

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English then you're actually not translating the meaning when you encounter an idiom like to have in the womb when you say such and such a woman has in the womb that's a literal translation that's a formal equivalency translation but that's not what it means it means she's pregnant and so that's one of the issues that comes up here is you have a spectrum from the most wouldn't be literal on the right to the dynamic or functional on the left and what

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I did in these articles is I went back to Luke 944 and I put as I recall 11 or was it 12 translations and I gave their rendering of that passage and then place them on a spectrum as to where they fell in a pretty well tracked with where you'd normally put those in the spectrum of translations if you have as your base translation as your foundational translation a more a formal equivalency translation which

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I would recommend for preaching and teaching how many times do you hear a pastor he will read from the

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King James New King James New American Standard those more formal equivalency translations and then he will say and the the

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Greek here could be understood and then he'll give a very what would be called a functional or dynamic translation and no one has a well not most people

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I guess King James only advocates have a problem with it but most people don't have a problem when the pastor does that and one of things

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I address is where should interpretation take place and I think it should take place right where it does take place right there in the proclamation the word the elders speaking to the church so on so forth but going back to your own personal study if you get if you just cluster all the translations you're using down to one side of the spectrum comparing them isn't going to do you any good the only way you can get really any more light upon the passage is to have some translations are farther down the spectrum than the one you're utilizing and that especially is going to help you to recognize idiomatic phrases things that that maybe you thought you knew what it meant traditionally but a more a functional or dynamic translation might give you an insight you hadn't you hadn't had before but one last thing here the problem you know

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I I mentioned earlier the problem that we have is we have so many today we don't need anymore but there's more will be coming out why have all these translations appeared over the past 10 years 15 years real simple money money

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I'm when Thomas Nelson became a public entity and they bought up word they forced everybody to put their study

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Bibles in the New King James version because they owned the copyright the New King James version and so if you're gonna have a study

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Bibles we put out by a company that was that was owned eventually in one way or another by Thomas Nelson if you want to have your study

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Bible in the NIV or in the New American Standard then you would have to pay royalties to those other publishers for the use of their translation and Thomas Nelson said we're not going to do that so you're going to put it in ours and so the

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Geneva study Bible originally came out New King James version that's not what it was written for the MacArthur study Bible John MacArthur doesn't use the

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New King James version but it came out in the New King James version rather than the New American Standard which is what he's used so why have all these the

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Holman Christian Standard Bible and the ESV and all these translations that have come out are owned by particular large publishing companies and so now what they can do is they can have their study

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Bibles and be honest with you no one's asked me on this program but I'll tell you anyways

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I don't like study Bibles I think study Bibles are a waste of money and leather be honest with you but they sell they sell millions and millions and millions of dollars worth and so now these companies can do their own study

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Bibles and they can do them in their own translation without then having to take a portion of their profit and ship it off to somebody else see so that's why they've all come into existence that's why the

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New Living Translation and all these you'll notice they're from different companies and millions of dollars have been poured into the promotion of these

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I mean man if you want to get free Bibles it's real easy be a seminary student or go to a

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Bible college because man I've seen them passing out freebie everything you know when the

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NET came out and the NLT and the ESV and they're just you know you could collect all of them that way it'd be a nice cheap way to do so I suppose and so that there's there's good and there's bad we need to take the good utilize the good translations compare them with one another gain the profit income from that but recognizing that sadly a lot of what you read is not motivated by and and it's not written by or motivated by completely pure motives shall we say there's politics involved and if you happen to work for a particular company as a scholar and you worked on a particular translation well you know then when somebody's come out with another translations could cut into your profits then that it added that it's it's sadly

45:19

Bible translation is an area where there's a whole lot more heat than there is light very frequently and a whole lot more dedication to tradition

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I mean not even talk about the King James only thing the King James only attitude can extend beyond the

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King James only controversy to where people use the same type attitude toward whatever they become accustomed to we have a whole generation coming up now known almost nothing but the

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NIV and so they look at these others as I go that's weird you know that's that's that that's odd and when you've heard

45:52

God speak through the word in a particular cadence in a particular way any new translation unless it's very similar to the one you have is gonna seem different but there's reasons for that and and unfortunately we do we tend to allow far too much emotion and sectarianism to enter into the

46:16

Bible translation area than we probably should and that ends up causing a problem 877 -753 -3341 spent a lot more time on that than I expected to let's talk with Marcus.

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Hi, Marcus. Yes, hello. How are you, sir? I'm fine, how are you? Doing good? I had a question about your about Calvinism in general

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I get the feeling I have been mis -informed to say the least.

46:50

My question is specifically about how does human will relate to the salvation and sovereignty of God from the

46:59

Calvinist point of view. Okay, well it might help me a little bit if I knew what you feel you may have been misinformed about well like for example it's always been taught to me that Calvinism in Calvinism the belief is that you can believe all you want, you know do you know as much good as you know just obey the

47:27

Bible all the way even if you never did anything wrong if you weren't predestined for salvation you missed it.

47:33

Ah, wow. Okay, well I can certainly understand why there's a there's a bit of confusion there obviously from a

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Calvinistic perspective we would not believe that anyone who would do those things, a person who would actually truly believe or truly desire to do what's pleasing to God we don't believe that anyone who remains in their sins who has not been regenerated would have a desire to do those things in the first place now obviously there is false religion in the world there are people who do a lot of religious things but they do not do those religious things for the glory of God they do those religious things to bring about their own betterment or or somehow to obtain something from God whatever else it might be there's a lot of false religion and we recognize that that men hide behind false religion to avoid dealing with the true

48:23

God I mean you know there are Mormons out there that are very moral people but they're worshipping a

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God who is actually just like they are just farther down the the the line of of exaltation and so that that aside

48:38

Calvinist believe that man has a will Calvinist believe that man makes decisions we just don't believe in fact

48:47

I mentioned this last week on the program but it sort of got run over by something else that in the program Calvinist is simply

48:54

Calvinist believe in liberty they just don't believe in the liberty of indifference that is we believe that man exists the creature of God exists under the control of and under the the the conditioning of and under the overarching umbrella of God's sovereign decree

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God's decree determines what man is what man can do what man's life is going to be like a center center

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God is sovereign all these things and yet we as creatures are given certain capacities and these capacities are used by God and bring about his perfect will and so the idea that there could be someone who repents who feels true sorrow for their sin who who clings to Christ and and praise the

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Christ and and wants Christ and and all these other things and yet is going to end up appearing before God and God says hey forget forget you you weren't elect goes completely against what

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Calvinist teach for a simple reason we don't believe that a man who is dead in sin has the capacity to do any of those things in the first place exactly

50:11

I mean that definitely makes sense to me yeah I mean we we in fact that's the whole problem the whole reason that salvation has to be completely the work of God is because that that man who is dead in sin has has no desire for the things of God he's according to the the flesh you know those those things have of God are foolishness to that person that's that's what the

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Bible tells us and so the idea that such a person could be clinging to Christ and then be rejected not not at not a chance on earth

50:43

I've heard the same misrepresentation but it that's exactly what it is that's what

50:49

I thought I mean it that's fine when I was listening to you over the past couple of weeks it occurred to me that I didn't understand what

50:56

Calvinist believed sadly sadly despite what some people say we we do not control the media we do not we

51:06

I don't know if you heard the program I was on with Chuck Krismeier but he tended to feel that the

51:11

Bible belt is filled with Calvinist or something like that I'm just like wow okay that's interesting that's just not the case and so unfortunately we frequently have to address these issues because if we don't talk about them everybody else really has a much wider ability to communicate misapprehensions than we have to correct them and so sometimes we have to do that but have you had a chance to look at the

51:36

Potter's Freedom yet? I've been wanting to but I haven't been able to afford the book I couldn't find it in the library here.

51:43

Oh man we need to get somebody to donate one to the library there and track that I mean you're in California I mean yeah

51:52

I haven't looked like in Oakland or anything like that. I bet I could find it in Oakland. or San Francisco.

51:59

Well if you can't find one then get in touch with us and we'll get you one. Something tells me that there's folks listening right now that would say hey

52:08

I'll definitely cover a copy of the Potter's Freedom for Marcus out there in California so if you can't track one down there in Oakland let us know and we'll definitely get you one okay?

52:20

Okay. Alrighty? Okay. Thanks Marcus, thanks for calling. Thank you. Alright, God bless. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number.

52:30

I was gonna ask a question there and because I'm always fascinated how does anybody know about this program?

52:37

It is always fascinating me when I go traveling. I'm sure I'll probably run into some folks this weekend in North Carolina.

52:43

Yes, even in North Carolina that see I just saw somebody on the channel say

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I'll cover it. I knew that we would be able to find that and they listen to the

52:56

Dividing Line and I don't know how they ever heard about it. You know I mean it's one thing we're on the radio but we're not on the radio.

53:07

That's an expenditure of money that's beyond what it was worth because when we were on the radio all of our calls came from outside where the radio station reached.

53:20

It was completely based upon the internet anyways and so we've never sought to go back there.

53:27

And I know there are others, you know, that have a much wider swath of influence but it is absolutely fascinating how people end up catching this program.

53:42

It just, it really really is neat. It would be very interesting to have a convention of everyone who listens to the

53:53

Dividing Line. What an odd group that would be. We were talking in channel about the fact that when we all get together it's a little bit odd for us because we actually have to talk.

54:06

We can't, we've frequently said what we need to do is set up a wireless network and then we could all sit around with our laptops and we'd feel much more comfortable chatting to each other and playing our sound files at each other than actually having to interact and look in people's eyes and all that kind of stuff.

54:26

That would be very strange, very odd indeed. But anyway, like I said,

54:32

I truly appreciate the listeners to this program who, I mean, you're making an effort to listen.

54:38

You had to fire up a program. You had to click on a link. You're making an effort to listen and therefore we try to make it as interesting for you as we can.

54:48

I got to admit, I don't know of too many other programs like this where we address the broad range of topics that we address from the perspective that we address it at and I recognize that some people would say, well, you know, you're not balanced because you always talk about Calvinism.

55:07

Well, you know what, like I said, that's not how it is at my church.

55:13

But when you're involved in apologetics, I really, really honestly, yeah, we are equal time.

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I really honestly would suggest that an apologetic methodology is determined by one's systematic theology.

55:39

And so to do apologetics, we answer questions and we approach apologetics differently than almost everybody else and there has to be an explanation as to why that is.

55:51

Why won't we use certain what the world would consider to be effective methodologies?

55:58

Because we don't believe that it's consistent with the proclamation of the gospel and what the gospel is.

56:06

I mean, if you really believe what we believe about how God saves people, then you're not going to try to trick them into salvation, are you?

56:13

You're not going to try to make appeals to men in such a way that dishonors God and dishonors the gospel.

56:20

We're not going to try to get them in using one methodology and then once we've got them hooked, you know, we've got them signed on the line, and now that they've signed on the line, now we've got to start deconstructing what we said before.

56:39

We've got to start taking it apart and correcting it. We know that we sort of indicated that you were making the decision here, you know, but in reality what we meant was this.

56:53

I just don't think that's how you do it. I don't think that that's honoring and glorifying to God to, in essence, have to backtrack after you trick somebody into faith and say, well, you know,

57:04

I know we said this, but what we really meant was this. As was just mentioned in channel, pragmatism.

57:13

You know, we can't do that. There is an inconsistency there. I can't be telling somebody about the truth and then

57:20

I'm being inconsistent with the truth myself. There's something internally to me that will not allow me to do that and that's why we are the size we are.

57:34

That's why you don't hear us yelling and screaming about money all the time. It's not because we have a lot of it coming in.

57:40

We don't have some big rich person that has just dumped a bunch of... It just doesn't happen.

57:47

That's not us. That's why we're different. You know, we see ourselves as an assistant to the church in assisting pastors and we are not the church, we will not act like the church, we will not do anything like that and it all goes back to what we believe theologically.

58:07

That's not an imbalance. It's just due to the fact that, you know, when the society and the church around you is out of balance and you're trying to stay in balance, it looks like you're the one that's out of balance.

58:17

Well, anyways, I hope that made some sense to you. We will be back, Lord willing, unless I have a flight problem, for the

58:24

Dividing Line Tuesday. I get back on Monday, so we're gonna see you this weekend in North Carolina.

58:29

Drive carefully. Look forward to seeing you then. If not, we'll see you next week on the Dividing Line. We need a new reproach.

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Brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries. If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.

59:40

Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the

59:46

World Wide Web at aomin .org, that's a -o -m -i -n -dot -o -r -g, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates and tracks.