December 1, 2017 Show with Joe Thorn on “A Christian Response to Juicy Gossip: How Should God’s People React to the Avalanche of Sex Scandals Among Celebrities & Politicians?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

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Earth listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this first day of December 2017.

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Well I can truly say probably more than ever with more meaning than ever before, thank

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God for Joe Thorne. The reason I say that is that Joe is a man who is always ready to help out

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when we are caught in a bind and literally about 30 seconds ago

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I called him because our guest today that was previously scheduled, Thaddeus Williams, forgot that we had an interview and he's at the

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Grand Canyon. So I just thank the Lord that somebody as qualified and somebody who is as fascinating and as brilliant and as excellent a guest as Joe Thorne is ready with such short notice, not all the time, but today he was by the providence of God.

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And Joe Thorne, for those of you who have not heard him on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio before, he is a pastor at Redeemer Fellowship in St.

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Charles, Illinois. He's the author of a number of books including Note to Self, The Disciple or The Discipline of Preaching to Yourself, I think that's what it was

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I meant to write and I put down disciple, The Discipline of Preaching to Yourself and Experiencing the

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Trinity, The Grace of God for the People of God. He's a contributor to the

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ESV Men's Devotional Bible and we won't hold that against him since the NASB is a sponsor of this program and also the

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ESV Story Bible and the Mission of God Study Bible. He's also a host of a podcast exploring

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Christian faith and practice from a Reformed Baptist perspective titled

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Doctrine and Devotion. Today we are addressing a Christian response to juicy gossip and we are specifically talking about everything that we are learning about every day as the scandals unfold in regard to Hollywood celebrities, television personalities and politicians.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sherp and Zion Radio, Joe Thorne. Chris, thanks for having me on man, it's always an honor.

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Let me just tell you right now, if I was booked to be on your radio show, Grand Canyon couldn't keep me away.

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Grand Canyon is not going anywhere, I don't know what this guy's problem is, but I would prioritize the radio show, just letting you know that.

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Well, actually the fault is just as much in my lap as mine because I have been busy all day and didn't take the time to remind

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Thaddeus this morning about our interview. But anyway, God has his reasons for having

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Joe Thorne on today and Joe Thorne, according to God, was the right guest for Friday, December 1st 2017.

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And why don't you tell our listeners who are not familiar with you about Redeemer Presbyterian, I'm sorry,

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Redeemer Presbyterian. I'm so used to those two words following each other, especially since we have right here in Carlisle, Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church, a congregation that I would feel much more comfortable attending than another more infamous one.

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But anyway, Redeemer Fellowship, which is a Reformed Baptist congregation in St.

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Charles, Illinois, tell us about that. Well, Redeemer is ten years old now, or ten and a half years old,

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I guess. It is situated west of Chicago, about 40 miles, and it's made up of a very diverse, vibrant group of brothers and sisters who love the

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Lord, love the Word, and we're growing, we're planting churches. It is the happiest, healthiest church

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I've ever been a part of, and it is an honor to serve alongside the other pastors there and to work with people.

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Last night I just was hanging out with our small group, lovely people, they are some of my dearest friends. Man, it's a great church that I am not worthy to even be a part of, but I brag on those people all the time because what

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God has done among those people and who He has made those people is really one of the greatest joys I get to experience on a regular basis.

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Amen. Well, for those of you who either live in the St. Charles, Illinois, area, or you plan to visit there, or move there, or you have family, friends, and loved ones who live in that area, especially if they do not already have a

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Bible -believing church where they are a member, you could go to RedeemerFellowship .org.

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RedeemerFellowship .org, and we hope that you make use of that website, whether you are visiting there or just gleaning knowledge from all the information that they have posted there.

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Well, why don't we also, before we go into our topic, have you give a little synopsis, a little brief summary of Note to Self, the discipline of preaching to yourself, and also experiencing the

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Trinity, the grace of God for the people of God. Sure thing, yeah.

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Well, Note to Self was written, I guess it came out in 2011, and it's a very small book, and it's essentially a devotional.

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People would read a page and a half a day if they wanted to, and it's a collection of reflections on Scripture, very experiential theology, but the idea of the book, and it's laid out in the introduction, is to teach people what it means to actually preach the

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Gospel, and to preach the Word of God in its entirety to ourselves. Right, so that we read the

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Word, and then it is applied to our own lives, to our own hearts, with great specificity, so that we are knowing how to respond in faith and in repentance in very experiential ways.

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So it models that, it explains that, and then experiencing the Trinity is also made up of a number, like 50 reflections, on God the

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Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, where it takes those doctrines that we typically associate properly with the various persons within the

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Godhead, but then it really drives them down into the experiential life of faith, so that when we talk about, say, the omnipresence of God, or the omniscience of God, we don't want it to just stay there as an abstract idea, we want to show how this is a truth of God that we should, that should be having an impact in our faith, in our life, in real tangible ways.

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Praise God. Well, for more information about those books, you can actually order them from cvbbs .com,

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that's one of our sponsors, CV for Crumlin Valley BBS, or BibleBookService .com,

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and in fact, I heard about Joe Thorne originally from Patty Jennings, one of the owners of cvbbs .com,

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who urged me to interview Joe after she and her husband met Joe at a

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Bible conference they attended, and so make sure that you tell Patty and Todd Jennings that you heard about the

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Joe Thorne publications from Chris Arnson on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, because I have, as I have been repeating, cvbbs .com

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has been going through a really big turnaround for the better in their sales, and a lot of you,

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I am convinced, are not telling them that you are hearing about them from Iron Trip and Zion Radio when placing your order, because this turnaround, just providentially,

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I don't think it was a coincidence, this turnaround has occurred right in the midst of huge promotions that we are doing for cvbbs, and it would seem too much of a coincidence to have that occur, in my opinion.

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So basically, I'm sorry? Half of the classics in my library have come through Crumlin Valley.

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Wow. Yeah, sure. I was ordering from them back in the 90s. Well, that's great to know, and I'm sure they will be thrilled to have you advertise them that way.

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And in fact, if you folks, when you're ordering from cvbbs .com,

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you may not realize this, a way that you can tell them that you heard about them from Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I'm gonna have to remember to repeat this, because I think a lot of you are just completely ignoring this option, which

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I just found out about through a listener. An Iron Sharpens Iron listener told me why she thinks that many of my listeners might not be mentioning the show, and she said that when you order on the

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Internet, there is no place to indicate how you heard about the company. There is a box for special instructions, which in theory could be used for that purpose, but one does not know to use the box for that purpose until after you've checked out.

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So use that box to write in there,

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I heard about cvbbs .com from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And by the way, they are running a 10 % off discount on all of their merchandise, and until they tell me to stop,

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I don't know how long they are doing that. And we'll tell you more about a free offer that they are giving away.

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It's a book titled The Theology of the Reformers by Timothy George. It's a $29 .99

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book. They're giving it away absolutely free of charge with a minimum order of $50.

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So you're getting more than a value, more than half of what you're spending by ordering through cvbbs.

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But we'll keep that in mind and tell you more about that when we are actually during a commercial break.

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But Joe, with the idea of our program today, the theme of our program popped into my head because what we want to talk about is a

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Christian response to juicy gossip. And I think that most people, the majority of Christians even, no matter how seasoned a believer you may be, there is something in our hearts that leaps for joy even if it's just a little bit.

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So with some of us it's a enormous leap for joy. You could catapult over a building with that leap.

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But when we see those whose ideology or politics or theology or whatever it is that we despise about them, whatever it is that bothers us, whatever it is that we believe is a contamination to the thoughts, minds, and hearts of either the

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American people or people globally, if we if we think this person either because of their politics and especially if they are a politician, that they are a dangerous individual leading people astray, leading people into being in favor of such things as murdering unborn children, or if it's somebody that is just in the entertainment field and they're vulgar and filthy and at the same time self -righteous where they will they will point fingers every time a conservative especially and perhaps even especially even more significantly when somebody professes to be a

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Christian or they are a pastor and they fall, well some of us if not all of us have a special place of joy in our hearts when we see one of those people who have been pointing the fingers and laughing have their own wickedness exposed and watch them fumble and mumble and scramble for excuses.

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But I wanted you to give your opinion on a Christian response to these things as they unfold it seems every single day in fact multiple times a day you'll get updates on things that are being discovered and brought to the limelight because I think that there is an extreme opposite to that that is also wrong where I have already heard a very well -known

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Christian, I should say a well -known celebrity who professes to be a

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Christian whose brother is a pastor a very well -known pastor

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I heard her basically saying you know well we love you

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Matt Lauer and we all have our problems don't let anybody get you down I will always be behind you or whatever something like that just kind of a paraphrase but I think that that could be equally as wrong to to candy -coat the sins that people have committed but if you could what is your initial reaction as a

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Bible -believing pastor who is a heart and mind trained with the scriptures and with solid theology well first of all let me agree with you that we tend to give a pass to our friends and heroes when they fail miserably by either remaining silent no matter how bad it is or by verbally affirming them and we love to rejoice in or at least feel smug about those that are against our position or theology when they fail it that is all sin absolutely that needs to be repented of and I think that the root of it all like the reason that is in all of our hearts is because the remnants of sin in the form of pride exists in all of us and so what we're doing in that moment when we love gossip we want to hear about it we want to be the first one to share with somebody else

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I did hear about Matt Lauer I did it I did it I did it this week I said hey buddy do you hear about Steve you hear about that Matt Lauer and everybody's like yeah

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I already know and I was disappointed that I wasn't the one that got to share the juicy gossip with it so so that sin right that that sin in my heart is stemming from pride and and what's happening

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I think in there is it is it's tied up in the in the harsh unjust unkind unbiblical judgment that Jesus was always combating that was so common among the

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Pharisees and scribes and and the legalists right it was we were called to judge rightly and compassionately but only in the context of having judged ourselves by the

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Word of God and by the standards of God in dealing with our own sin so I think it's tied up in in this idea like I get the past judgment

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I get to be the one to agree affirm and not this person is wrong what they did was terrible and by setting ourselves up as the judge we somehow remove ourselves not just from the sin that that person committed but almost even from the possibility that we could commit that sin yes and we it is very dangerous when we begin to think more highly of ourselves which is obviously a sin it's a prohibition comes directly from the

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God -breathed scriptures and we forget about the sewer that exists in our own minds we forget that even though we have been rescued from the guilt and power of sin and the penalty of sin by the death of Christ if we are a genuinely regenerate of born again believer we either forget where we came from and act as if we came from the womb that we that we are were immaculately conceived as the

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Roman Catholic heresy of Mary teaches and we came from the womb sinless and and we were reading our

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Bibles at six months old and have been modeled members of the body of Christ ever since or we could even forget the remaining sin the vestiges and remnant of sin that still is clinging to our brain and our heart that that we let's face it we are all committing sin even we who are the best of Christians and it's kind of a conceited this that thing to say

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I guess we who are the best of Christian those who are the best of Christians as a those who are the best of Christians even have this sin and this is something we have to remember isn't it yeah yeah and I think when you remember that like when

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Jesus says hey take the plank out of your own eye right when he gets into this in Luke 6 yeah

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I think that the fruit of that is Wow I'm much more compassionate now with people which doesn't mean that we give them a pass on their sin right what it means though is that we are more understanding of human frailty sin and temptation and it means that we don't approach this as a person who is without blame and without guilt in any area of our lives

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I think it tempers the harsh attitude you know the pointing finger and instead it moves us into those situations where maybe we do have to exercise just judgment it moves us into that with our arms out ready to help right

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I mean that's the way kind of the whole thing with that that parable that Jesus tells like take the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of your brother's you we are supposed to help see we are supposed to judge lightly we are supposed to then lay our hands on a brother or sister okay now let me help you in this now when it comes to like the celebrities and the people that we know from a distance whether they're pastors or whatever we can't necessarily lay our hands on them to help but what we can do is we can reach out and help the people around us understand what's going on here and in terms of how we should think about these things you know that the sin of Matt Lauer or that or the sins of celebrity pastors when when they are made known those things should grieve me for the victims who have been hurt by those people it should grieve me for the shame that it might bring upon the name of Christ among other people but it should also scare me a little bit because I know that the same seed that gave birth the same seeds of sin that gave birth to those specific problems in an individual's life those seeds are in me too and if I'm not constantly addressing and judging my own heart if I'm not maintaining communion with Christ if I am not warring against the flesh then those same seeds that exist in a book can bear the same fruit in me so it should make us humble and vigilant as we're assessing ourselves so I don't think we should ever look at you know some guy like Matt Lauer or whomever and then either just say oh what a loser

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I can't believe this guy did what a creep there's a part of that where you can like okay he what he did was creepy but we should also then

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I think reflect on on on ourselves so I think there's a place to say here's what's problem we can address the pornography issue in our culture we can address these things we can say what needs to happen of course the dude needs to be fired if 50 things are true and it sounds like they are all of that but until we bring it back to ourselves we really run the risk of feeding pride and beginning to see things from an unbiblical perspective now one of the things that I'm sure you agree with is that our initial reaction should not be necessarily to believe the reports being said about anyone even if they are somebody that we find totally repulsive whether they were involved in the scandal or not

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I mean it that's the ninth commandment right the ninth commandment tells us to not bear false witness against our neighbors and so that includes everything from you know not receiving a false accusation not believing every accusation as soon as it's made and defending the name of a person even if you don't like them very much it's a false accusation so yeah we shouldn't be so quick to believe everything but we should desire for the truth to be made regardless of how it's going to shake out now because this involves this question really involves more than just celebrities whether they are actors performers musicians talk hosts news anchor men and women but it also applies for people within our congregation within our families within our neighborhoods how within our when our offices at work when do we start taking very seriously the reports like this like there is a there is a motto that has been repeated in the media that especially if a woman is making a report like this and I'm sure we could include in that a child we should immediately take it seriously but we don't necessarily have to broadcast it by when we immediately hear about it what is your what are your thoughts on that well first of all

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I think we should take every accusation very seriously because either it means that there is a big problem there's an accusation there is a huge problem either on the part of the one who's being accused or does the one who is doing the act the accusing right because if if they're making a false allegations and there is a major problem on their end that has to be addressed but if what they're saying is true then there's a major problem the person who you know is being mentioned and being brought up so I do think that if an accusation is moved there needs to be an investigation and the way that that is done needs to be patiently kindly but thorough you know we need to find out what's going on I've been a part of a church in the past where a teenager made a very serious false allegation against a leader in that church and this could have destroyed so much his life his marriage the church and in the end she finally admitted no

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I made that up nothing none of that ever happened so it's good as soon as the allegation was made everybody had to go okay our gut instinct was

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I it was hard to believe so let's go but let's sit everybody down let's talk about it you know just take them separate to talk to them individually so yeah

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I do think we need to take these things seriously however I and I guess let me say this if anytime we're talking about people who are under the authority or the care of another person if it's an if it's an inferior and I don't mean that a bad thing but accusing their superior like in the workplace for example and they're making an accusation

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I am pretty desirous to make sure that the people aren't being oppressed by those who have authority

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I'm sensitive to that issue but again it doesn't matter just because a person is a boss or a cop or a politician it doesn't mean that they don't have the same right to to do process in the legal realm and even in the in the court of public opinion you know should be very careful not to or jump to the wrong conclusion yeah these kinds of accusations as you said they could destroy a person and slander and bearing false witness against your neighbor are very prevalent sins of one degree or another

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I have heard many people who are pastors say they believe that gossip is the is the most prevalent sin in the body of Christ and I would tend to believe that my former pastor actually my most recent former pastor

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I should say Mark Romaldi of Grace Reform Baptist Church of Merrick Long Island New York he wrote a book called gossip the church killer but we have to be not only very careful not to utter slander or and an exaggeration is also slanderous when we are saying more about the story than the facts would indicate

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I have said on this program I have said on this program before and I've said to individuals off the air that if you are a witness in a murder trial and you know because you saw a man stab someone to death it is still bearing false witness against your neighbor and slander and sin if you saw him if you say from the the witness stand in the courtroom

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I saw him stab two people to death if you only saw him stab one it's still slander to no matter how evil this person may be to say stab two so we can't pick and choose who we think is appropriate to be slandered everybody is off base when it comes to slander right yeah and we feed into this right because like this it's why we like revenge the one part it's why

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I like revenge movies because there's this part of me there's this corrupt part of me well there's part of me that wants justice

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I want I want people to answer for their sins or I want Christ to answer for those sins but I want the justice has to happen and so when people are getting away with things it really troubles me and so I want to be justice but sometimes we're so hungry for what we think is justice it evolved into a vengeance motif right and so I we want that guy to pay every cent and even more yeah so we really want to put the screws to people's thumbs you know even after they've confessed or even after things have come out it's like we want to take it farther and farther and farther to continue to punish them so I do think we need to be careful you know how how we think about and how we talk about you know people that have fallen over the accusations of those who have fallen and I would also say kind of piggyback on something that you were saying that not only do we need to be careful not to make those accusations if they aren't true and not be quick to believe them but to take them seriously when they're made but we also need to if we if somebody is clearly gossipy we need to be the ones to say hey man we gotta get a check yourself there be careful

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I don't want you to wind up gossiping about somebody there's no reason for me to know this there's no reason for you to be sharing this right now and what you are saying could really hurt somebody so you should be able to talk to that person directly or talk to somebody in authority who needs to be able to address the issue but you don't need to be talking to me about this we need to have the willing the courage to do that and I think a lot of us aren't because we are we thought friendships are delicate people don't want to call other people out for those missteps you know socially and so they just kind of let it go by either we say nothing or we wind up engaging in the same step.

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Amen and we have to go to our first break right now if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com if you have a question for our guest Joe Thorne about this topic and I ask of you to give us please your for at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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USA and if you are asking about a personal and private matter that would actually prevent you from doing the very thing we're speaking out against today that would be ideal for you to remain anonymous and and we will allow you to remain anonymous and grant your request to remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking but otherwise please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA don't go away God -willing right after these messages from our sponsors we are going to continue with our discussion with Pastor Joe Thorne which is a

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Christian response to juicy gossip tired of box store

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am

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I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man I would not be a servant of Christ hi

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I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church we are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the

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London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 we are in Norfolk Massachusetts we strive to reflect

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Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the

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Apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love if you live near Norfolk Massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

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forward slash iron sharpens today hi I'm pastor

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Bill Shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m.

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Eastern Time on WLIE radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull join us this

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Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back this is

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Chris Ornson if you just tuned us in our guest today excuse me for the scratchy throat here our guest today is pastor

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Joe Thorne and he is lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles Illinois he's an author and host of the podcast doctrine and devotion we are addressing the theme a

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Christian response to juicy media gossip in the wake of the avalanche of the sex scandals among celebrities and politicians if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

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Chris Ornson at gmail .com Chris Ornson at gmail .com

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and please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

36:02

USA one of the things that I posted on Facebook recently is that I think that we in the church can learn a lot from these scandals that are bombarding us in the media in one way and I'm sure there are many other ways but one way we can learn from them

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I think is how not to ask for forgiveness or quote -quote apologize right and I gave an example of one of a one of the poor ways that a certain celebrity apologized quote -quote for his misbehavior his misdeeds his sexually aggressive activity toward women who were not receptive of it and he said in basically

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I will paraphrase I understand that I have made a number of women feel horribly because of my actions and for that I am truly sorry and what

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I said in response to that was that this if you boiled it down to its essence is a response that we have heard we have all heard many times and perhaps have even said it when a person when a person is cornered with irrefutable evidence of what they've done or when they've been caught in the act of doing something that is deemed to be unpleasant by the populace that if they are not truly repentant over that action or thought or statement they will typically say

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I am sorry I hurt your feelings and I said that if you really want to define what that means the majority of the time the vast majority of the time

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I'm sorry I hurt your feelings really means I have pity upon you because you are so thin -skinned and are so overly sensitive that's really what that means

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I am sorry I hurt your feelings it's not please forgive me for this horrible action that I committed it or statement that I made or behavior that I demonstrated you're really saying hey

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I'm sorry that you can't handle it yeah yeah I feel bad for you that's what it is yeah it's not the difference the puritans talk a lot about the difference between evangelical repentance and legal repentance by the legal repentance being well you know what

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I'm sorry I got caught I'm sorry about the impact of what I did it's one minute I'm gonna I'm gonna say that I'm sorry and I'm gonna change my ways but it's not evangelical that's legal repentance evangelical repentance recognizes our sin is just that sin against God and against man and we are grieved for what we have done not just for how it has impacted people or the consequences that it might bring upon us it's not like that oh

39:08

I just feel bad about this situation or I feel bad for you it is I am broken over what

39:13

I have done a real apology a sincere biblical apology specific and it is offered without qualification or equivocation it it doesn't it doesn't seek to explain a lot it simply states what

39:32

I have done was wrong there's no excuse and it is followed with will you forgive me which is then on them to forgive but it certainly isn't this

39:41

I'm sorry that you feel or that I loved I love you you know what I'm sorry if anything that I said hurt you or offended you so again you're not you're not sorry about what you did you're expressing some kind of regret or how somebody may have experienced it is not repentance it is not sorrow certainly not godly sorrow and it's not an apology yes somebody actually very accurately brought that up in response to my to my my post they said that I hate it even worse when

40:22

I hated even more when someone says I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings that even further places a wedge between the guilty party and their actual guilt because they're like say they're really really calling into question the the integrity of the accusation absolutely absolutely and that is the most common way that people even

40:44

Christians will express an apology right when I go marriage counseling pre -marriage counseling we spend a lot of time on dealing with conflict repentance and forgiveness because that's such a big part of marriage right and and I have to walk them through this is a real apology this is a fake apology this is a good apology and this is good remorse and this is bad and I'm surprised at how often they're like obviously helpful because I haven't really been taught what an apology or what repentance should look like when expressed to another person in practical terms yeah so why don't we go through some of what you believe and of course

41:23

I'm assuming therefore that you believe this is what the Bible would want us to include in a statement whether it's an oral or written statement that demonstrates that you are truly not only recognizing and acknowledging your guilt but that you are truly asking for forgiveness that you are truly troubled by the pain that you have caused that person and that you are going to do everything you can not to repeat that action or deed or statement or behavior and will make restitution if restitution is a required element in this scenario what to tell us about some of the things that you would personally want to see if if someone was making for instance this statement to you or maybe even more importantly your wife or your daughter what would you want to see in a statement like that well the first thing

42:22

I would say at all about this before I give you the component that this is one of them is that restitution in some form is always necessary even if the restitution itself is only the apology in the confession everybody owns that to the person that they have a family there's a debt so there is a kind of restitution always and sometimes

42:44

I would say what what what the scripture calls for it if we're thinking about like that was the first Corinthians 7 or the second

42:52

Corinthians 7 I'm a Bible in front of me so but God we sorrow right so like we can look at the classic definitions of what repentance is in the in the performance standards but that the simplest one out there that I use a lot is

43:06

James Boyce's not the Presbyterian guy the Baptist guy Pettigrew he said that repentance is the first catechism for boys and girls he says that repentance is sorrow for sin accompanied by a determination with the help of God just no more and that's a very simple but very good way because a fundamental thing that they have to be sorry for is what they have done not just the impact the effects or the consequences that they are facing right so I would want them to sense to know wow what

43:40

I have done was morally wrong and it was it was a a form of destruction of my neighbor and it certainly was a declaration of war if not just atheism against God so I would want them to sense that what they have done was actually truly deeply morally wrong if they if they get that then that's the beginning

44:01

I definitely like that I think that they have to offer this without and I said this earlier without a lot of explanation because as soon as we begin to explain we are then justifying oftentimes what we have done you know

44:17

I'm really sorry what I did was wrong but let me just explain I had a really bad day and you know somebody my tires and you know somebody took my diet coke out of the fridge at work so I was in the wrong frame of mind that kind of led to this all of that amounts to a justification and excuse for what we have done we've got to not explain why and that's the person who wants to know what led up to this and don't incriminate on words it has to be clear and it has to be owned like this is mine no excuse for it and then

44:52

I think it needs to be accompanied by a I hope you will forgive me will you forgive me with the recognition that they don't deserve forgiveness you don't earn that but it is the desire because that then says what what

45:06

I really want is I want you to be healthy enough to do something that is that is glorious and glorifying to God in demonstrating you know the forgiving grace of God it's not just for me you know

45:20

I want you to be free from the harm that I've caused you as well and forgiveness one of the ways that that forgiveness demonstrate yeah well here's another thing

45:31

I can't remember if you and I discussed this before for some reason I think that we may have as a part of a previous interview but there is even amongst not only

45:46

Christians but there is a debate between very like -minded

45:53

Christians even amongst those who would claim reform theology

45:58

Calvinism doctrines of sovereign grace etc there is a division over the issue of repentance of what when what is repentance first of all and when should somebody grant forgiveness the the two primary examples of people that are most well known that disagree would be

46:23

John MacArthur and Jay Adams John MacArthur has stated in sermons I don't know if he has changed his opinion but he has said in writing and from his pulpit that we must forgive those who have done wrong to us even before and perhaps even if they never ask for forgiveness and Jay Adams says no we are to love our enemies and do good for our enemies and pray for our enemies but that's not the same thing as forgiveness forgiveness would be a further step where you release the person the guilty party from the debt of guilt you don't require anything from them in that instant or that for because of that sin you don't require anything from them anymore and that is what a true act of forgiveness is that do you have a a side that you fall on in that decision first of all that is a sticky issue right it's not as cut -and -dry as we'd like it to be

47:25

I wish it was so I tend to lean and I don't jump but I tend to lean more towards the idea that forgiveness is only required so it can always be given

47:39

I suppose but it is only required or appropriate maybe that's a better word

47:46

I don't know but I tend to lean towards when there's repentance forgiveness is then offered not just because we see that working in how

47:53

God relates to his people but also because of something that you said that until there is always a restitution that is necessary and until the until the confession of sin and repentance is offered restitution has not been made and so the debt is still there relationally or socially so I don't

48:20

I don't tell my people who are people in our church that are the victims we've had victims of rape and child molestation and all kinds of crimes okay and you know they can forgive which is great maybe they don't feel that they can forgive when there's no repentance necessary what

48:38

I do tell them though is what what's already agreed upon by everybody even if you can't technically forgive them because because they still own this restitution you do still have to pray for them love them demonstrate kindness towards them and that doesn't always look the same in every situation but even if you fall on the side of well you don't have to forgive if they haven't repented well do you still have to love your enemy do you still have to pray for those who persecute it maybe it's just the form of gossip and if you do

49:13

I'm not sure how big of a difference there is in terms of our heart in that matter yeah and some of it may be a matter of semantics but right but as whatever side you fall on I happen to be

49:33

I happen to lean more towards Jay Adams definition which I believe is a biblical one because I believe if we are to imitate

49:42

Christ if we were to forgive everyone without any repentance then we must think

49:47

Christ does that and therefore hell would be forever empty of inhabitants if that was the truth but I mean

49:54

I understand that we are not Christ we are sinners but the but whatever side that you fall on I think that the the wounded party the innocent party the one who has been victimized or hurt in any way or harmed in any way that person has to be willing to forgive nothing

50:22

I agree with dr. Adams that they don't they're not obligated to actually forgive that person without that person's acknowledgement of their guilt and their request for forgiveness and a credible display of repentance but but you still have to hold that out to them if they if they do come to you humbly in repentance that you will forgive them

50:52

I totally agree the willingness to repent is key and that is what that's a heart condition you know you're that means that your heart is is is in the right place you you understand your guilt before God his forgiveness towards you and so you know

51:10

I how could I not forgive people if they are repentance right so we we've learned to forgive this through Christ and so even if we even if you know you don't have to necessarily technically forgive that heart condition is absolutely critical and that is sometimes the real reason people don't forgive even when there is because their heart is not in the right place yeah there is something that gives us a feeling of power and sometimes delight of some kind to refuse repentance to someone to punish them because of their deed against us and the feelings that I sometimes and overcome with the feelings of rage and vengeance that I feel

52:00

I realize why it is a good thing that I am NOT God and we are going to our midway break right now and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own please as I have repeated before give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

52:33

USA please only remain anonymous if you are asking about a personal and private matter and please don't well since I'm reading these statements

52:48

I'm not going to mention any other people by name or churches by name or locations if you are bringing up specific people or churches because obviously we would be perpetuating the very same thing that we're trying to speak out against today but try not to include that in your your message anyway just so I don't accidentally read something that I shouldn't be reading but anyway we're going to it this is our elongated break because grace life radio 90 .1

53:19

FM in Lake City Florida requires a 12 -minute break in between our two -hour segments so please be patient with us and use this as an opportunity to write your questions and send them in as soon as you can the

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back are you a Christian looking to align your faith and finances then you'll want to check out thriving financial we're not your typical financial services provider we're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps our nearly 2 .4

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58:13

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for my now seeking the approval of man or of God or my trying to please man if I were still trying to please man

58:26

I would not be a servant of Christ hi I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church we are reformed

58:33

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in Norfolk Massachusetts we strive to reflect

58:40

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do then how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love if you live near Norfolk Massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

59:24

TV program entitled resting in grace you can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma .org

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that's Providence Baptist Church ma .org or even on sermon audio .com Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio hi I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every

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Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE radio www .wlie540am

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.com we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull join us this

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Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor

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hi I'm Buzz Taylor frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I would like to introduce you to my good friends

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CVBBS .com let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and you can also call

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CVBBS .com at their toll -free number 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 the best time to call when you can be guaranteed somebody will be manning those phone lines is 10 a .m.

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to 430 p .m. of course you could order your merchandise 24 hours a day at CVBBS .com

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but if you prefer ordering by phone call 800 -656 -0231 as I mentioned earlier they are offering 10 % off of all of their merchandise for a limited time only 10 % discount on everything and if you purchase a minimum of $50 worth of merchandise you will receive absolutely free while supplies still last the book

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or call 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 and as our guest

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I believe he said from CVBBS .com so we thank Todd and Betty Jennings for always shipping out the books and Bibles and DVDs and CDs and other other items that our listeners win by submitting questions to our guests on Iron Troupe and Zion Radio and we thank them also for introducing me not that I've met him face to face in the flesh yet but they introduced me to Joe Thorne who

01:06:04

I have interviewed a number of times now they introduced me to his ministry and to his books and so on and I thank them for that and before we return to our discussion with Joe Thorne on the theme a

01:06:18

Christian response to juicy media gossip in the wake of the avalanche of the sex scandals among celebrities and politicians we have some important announcements to make in regard to special events that are going on first of all my dear friend

01:06:35

Marcus McKnight the third Marcus A. McKnight the third who is more commonly known here in Carlisle Pennsylvania as Mike McKnight he's a local attorney and he is not only an attorney but he's a the former elder of the church where I am a member

01:06:54

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle he is currently a member of the

01:07:00

West Shore Evangelical Free Church in Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania but Marcus is going to be speaking on the theme

01:07:06

Joseph the quiet hero of Christmas at the comfort suites of downtown

01:07:12

Carlisle on Friday December 8th that's one week from today the event starts at 1130 a .m.

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and ends at 1 p .m. and includes lunch it would normally cost you $20 to get in to this event but if you mention

01:07:27

Iron Trip and Zion radio it will be absolutely free to you absolutely free of charge so I hope especially those who live it live within driving distance of Carlisle Pennsylvania who are listening to the show will attend this event

01:07:40

I am intending to be there unless God has some other plan for me that day but I am on my

01:07:47

I am right there on my calendar to attend that event I am definitely looking forward to hearing

01:07:53

Marcus once again speak and if you would like to register yourself call 717 249 23 53 717 249 23 53 and make sure you say that you heard about this event with Marcus McKnight from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trip and Zion radio and your $20 registration fee will be waived and that is

01:08:16

Friday December 8th 1130 a .m. to 1 p .m. at the Carlisle or should I say the comfort suites of Carlisle in downtown

01:08:24

Carlisle on South Hanover Street and then coming up in January the g3 conference is going to be once again taking place in Atlanta Georgia and it's going to be on the theme knowing

01:08:43

God a biblical understanding of discipleship and this is going to take place from the 17th through the 20th

01:08:49

I have to make get some clarification from Josh Bice who is the orchestrator of this event because I had been previously told that the 17th was specifically in a

01:09:02

Spanish -speaking edition of the conference and the 18th or the 20th being exclusively in the

01:09:08

English language but I just heard yesterday from dr. James R.

01:09:13

White of Alpha Omega Ministries a mutual friend of Joe Thorne and mine in fact I told Joe Thorne before he had ever met

01:09:20

James I said you got to meet James White you guys are gonna hit it off and that's exactly what happened they hit it off big -time but dr.

01:09:28

White said that he is going to be debating a Muslim and he believes he's almost certain it's on the 17th of January but I will get that that clarified at the event

01:09:38

I'm saying at the International Convention Center there in Atlanta Georgia he will be debating as a precursor to the conference he will be debating a

01:09:48

Muslim and I will get more details on that but the other speakers include Stephen Lawson Votie Balcom Phil Johnson Keith Getty HB Charles jr.

01:09:57

Tim Chalice Josh Bice Tom Askell Anthony Mathenia Michael Kruger David Miller Paul Tripp Todd Friel Derek Thomas Martha Peace Justin Peters and the aforementioned the illustrious the world -renowned dr.

01:10:11

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries if you want to register for that event go to g3conference .com

01:10:17

g3conference .com and please please please tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen and I am

01:10:26

Trevor's iron radio and please always do that and as I mentioned before please tell CV be CV BBS that there is a button you can click when you order books from CV BBS that says instructions use that to tell them you heard about the sale that they're having or you heard about CV BBS from Chris Arnzen and I interpret design radio because that is that will help enormously in our advertisers wanting to keep us on the air which leads me to the next topic something that I hate to do but I need to do it if I'm going to be responding to the urgent pleas of my own advertisers who have requested very urgently that I do this

01:11:08

I have to beg you for money I don't like doing it but I have to do it my advertisers who have been keeping this program on the air for years have urged me to make public appeals for advertising because we are in a desperate situation financially and we may indeed go off the air if we do not have a significant rise in donations and or advertisers if you love this program and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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God for you all of you who are sending in those checks if you want to advertise with us please just send me an email to Chris Ornson at gmail .com

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and put advertising in the subject line and I look forward to receiving many emails from you from those of you who want to advertise well we are back now with our guest

01:13:39

Joe Thorne lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles Illinois author conference speaker and a host the host of the podcast doctrine and devotion we are talking about a

01:13:53

Christian response to juicy media gossip in the wake of the avalanche of the sex scandals among celebrities and politicians our email address is

01:14:01

Chris Ornson at gmail .com and we do have a listener in Greensboro North Carolina Sterling pastor

01:14:14

Sterling Vanderwercker he is I believe he may have been from what

01:14:21

I last remember he has temporarily stepped down to still remain an elder but his preaching activity there

01:14:30

I believe is at least temporarily been put on hold but to the church where he serves is

01:14:37

Shepherds Fellowship in Greensboro North Carolina and he has written into us many times with excellent questions and I usually don't give that much information about listeners who are sending in questions but I always like to promote a biblically solid church whenever a pastor that I'm familiar with sends in a question so pastor

01:15:01

Sterling Vanderwercker says would your guest approve of this apology and here's an example of his apology or at least an apology that he wants your thoughts on I called you an idiot the

01:15:19

Bible tells me that all men are made in the image of God and no one is an idiot

01:15:25

I was wrong I am sorry will you forgive me I have thought this method to my children

01:15:32

I have Tom sorry I have taught this method to my children and I believe this is the only form of apology that acknowledges the wrong provides a biblical foundation and engages the offended in the apology and provides the repentance needed for forgiveness hmm does the

01:15:52

Bible tell us that nobody's an idiot I mean I know it says that those who say rock high you fool are deserving of hellfire but I don't know if that means that there is nobody an idiot but what are your thoughts on that well

01:16:05

I think there are a lot of idiots in the world that's what I think absolutely no for a fact that's true because I can be an idiot at times yeah

01:16:16

I mean I know what he's saying but to be honest you know that apology offered to somebody and he's giving an example and maybe those are just sort of the elements that he wants to include but you know that can sound pretty stiff and unfeeling you know and it almost sounds like there is no feeling behind it right at all like hey listen what

01:16:38

I what I said was wrong the Bible says it's wrong I recognized it's wrong so that's all very good but there needs to be a brokenness component to it as well right and and so yeah a written apology is good especially if it's if it's well written and communicated well but it's got to be a reflection of the heart right godly sorrow not just acknowledgment of wrong but sorrow for the wrong and so yeah

01:17:07

I think what he's given here is a good example I wouldn't say that that's the only way to do it that seems kind of limiting but certainly you want to as a

01:17:16

Christian you want to appeal to the truth and we want to express regret for offending

01:17:25

God and hurting our fellow man so I think it's I think it's good overall yeah

01:17:30

I mean of course I didn't read it with passion you could say those words with tears flowing from your eyes and you'd sound quite different but going back to his comment about the idiot what exactly is meant by whoever says

01:17:46

Raqqa you fool to his brother is guilty of hellfire when Paul and the epistle to the

01:17:54

Church of Galatia he calls them fools for for being duped by the Judaizers why is that okay for for Paul to say you fools to the

01:18:05

Galatians and yet then out of the other side of the God -breathed lips everybody's deserving of hellfire if they say

01:18:14

Raqqa you fool to your brother yeah and don't forget it was

01:18:20

Solomon's favorite f -word he said it all the time in Proverbs right indicating that there are fools and the

01:18:27

Bible categorically puts people into one of two categories you are either a fool or a wise person no in between so I think we have to acknowledge that you know folly is real therefore fools exist

01:18:40

I think what Jesus is getting at there I believe what Jesus is getting at there is the that kind of harsh judgment look at how

01:18:49

Jesus interacts with the Pharisees on this issue of judgment it is their judgment is harsh it is unfounded it is it is overly critical it is unbiblical and it is oftentimes new spirited so I you know

01:19:06

I don't like it I don't have a passage in front of me but my senses here that what

01:19:13

Jesus is doing there is he's talking about as he always does throughout the sermon I'm not he's talking about the heart condition so certainly we can't make an argument that uttering the word fool and directing it towards the person is wrong otherwise we've got a major contradiction in Scripture so we have to understand that Jesus I think we have to understand that Jesus is saying that we cannot baselessly and carelessly accuse people and condemn people and we're at school it was one of the you know primary words of the day that was abused and used by religious leaders in the first century so yeah

01:19:53

I think there's a place for it but certain caution and care with our words is incredibly important I recognize

01:20:01

I could be wrong on that but that's where I land and Sterling if you want to send in a clarifying email as to what you specifically meant about there being no idiots perhaps we were too idiotic to understand but that would actually refute the statement but by the way

01:20:26

Sterling you have won a free copy of Joe Thorne's book note to self the discipline of preaching to yourself so make sure we have your full mailing address and we'll have

01:20:37

CVVBS .com mail that out to you as soon as possible yes it is interesting

01:20:46

I just mentioned something about the tone of voice and the manner with which you say something you could have a technically perfect or perfectly worded quote -quote apology and by the way

01:21:03

I know Jay Adams hates that word apology I'll ask you about that in a minute but you could have a technically biblically worded you might even have it taken right out of the

01:21:13

Bible what you were saying but if you but if you say it with a lack of sincerity a lack of compassion a lack of your own inner turmoil and grief over what you have done or said with the evidence that there's no remorse or anything then it really is meaningless isn't it yeah yeah you know everybody's different some people are a bit more stoic a bit more stiff some people are very emotive and so you have to take all that into consideration but yes clearly you can say the right thing in the wrong way and it sort of undermines what you're saying my wife says to me a lot but not what you said it's the way you said it like that's one of the ways

01:21:58

I'd mess up and that would certainly apply to an apology or a confession yeah it's it's actually kind of humorous it's not necessarily humorous when you're hearing it said to you but but there's something humorous about the way people treat the word

01:22:14

I'm sorry or the phrase I'm sorry as a magical spell that they are casting and after they make this or cast this spell they are you are obligated to forgive them and and I'm speaking of when people will even say

01:22:36

I'm sorry okay as if that is supposed to evoke forgiveness from you just because they've made this magical incantation or ordered those words

01:22:50

I'm sorry okay or sometimes they'll just say the one word sorry you know

01:22:55

I mean obviously this person doesn't have any remorse over what they've done at all and they're not repentant over what they've done no no

01:23:01

I know you know they've said a good word but in an inappropriate way and it's super evident so it doesn't take much discernment to figure that one out when it happened and let's see we have we have an anonymous listener who says

01:23:23

I am having quite a difficult time forgiving my ex -husband for sins that he has never confessed to even though he knows they occurred he has never admitted guilt as if he had done anything wrong he has never asked for forgiveness he was a serial adulterer and violent spousal abuser and he has a horrible and real influence upon our children even many years after we were divorced are my children are all adults and they recognize his flaws but he still has a level of influence over them how do

01:24:08

I handle this situation where I cannot find it within myself to forgive him or to give my children a blessing to communicate with him when he slanders me and everyone close to me given any opportunity to speak yeah well

01:24:27

I feel for that person tremendously because you know adultery at least in my understanding of the scripture adultery breaks the marriage covenant and provides just cause for divorce and so she's dealing with all of that that kind of breach of the covenant abuse of any kind is intolerable and needs to be remedied so I just want to say

01:24:55

I feel for you as you're in the midst of that I don't mean what are you supposed to do the only thing that I can tell you to do with confidence here is to make sure that you are a part of a healthy church that will love you and care for you and protect you make sure that your spouse is held accountable for his actions and sometimes the accountability over action limits the interactions that we have with our family that doesn't mean that you are not forgiving a person but it means that you have to protect yourself and you have to protect your children

01:25:32

I had that we had to excommunicate a guy years and years ago who was guilty of sexually molesting little kids little kids didn't happen at church but there's a member of our church and so yeah we were like call the cops right away let's get this thing going and we held up the grace of the gospel to this guy

01:25:52

I met with him in prison a bunch of times but the consequences of his actions meant he was no longer going to be free and for a long long time he was going to be in jail and so if somebody is hurting their family they're going to be consequences make sure that you're in a good church make sure that you have pastors who are attentive who believe in pastoral care make sure that you have godly women around you who can support you and encourage you and exhort you if you if you're trying to handle this or go through this on your own if you can't be honest about what you're going through with the people around you you are going to only suffer more but in the context of a healthy church where you can actually tell the truth and people will love you and accept you you're going to be able to begin to find healing and restoration even though that process itself can be very long and arduous amen and you know this will actually goes back to the the question

01:26:48

I asked you earlier about the divide the debate between even theologically similar

01:26:55

Christians who believe differently on unforgiveness I know of similar situations to this where you have

01:27:04

Christians who will say no you have to you have to forgive that person your ex -husband no matter what and you have to instill within your children the command honor they father and mother that they have to honor their father no matter what he says or does now how does especially an adult honor his father without giving his father especially when you're talking about unbelieving children because a

01:27:35

Christian might be should be more biblically trained on how to nuance this but how does a person that you are talking to who is not even a believer to follow your counsel follow your urging and pleading to them to honor a father or a mother that has been very wicked to them and hasn't repented of it and it continues to do horribly destructive things how does that person not violate that command to honor thy father and mother at the same time without giving that person license to continue behaving horribly well let me say two things one really briefly those churches and those leaders that force a reconciliation between the abused and the abuser simply because someone is saying the right things are doing it wrong those churches need to repent

01:28:34

I'm talking about sitting little kids down with a person that abused them and saying do you forgive them now you have to forgive them this is abuse on top of abuse and I have a real problem with it so in terms of the person who is the father whom we were supposed to honor

01:28:51

I honestly you can lose honor and the father who breaks the marriage covenant who abuses his kids has lost his honor and the only sense in which

01:29:02

I believe a child of that parent can continue to honor them is by being respectful toward them but that's about it

01:29:11

I mean you certainly wouldn't want to submit to them and follow their ungodly leadership it may not be safe or wise to live with them if they are abusive they might need to go to jail they might need to leave the house there's a whole lot of consequences that might need to happen you can always be respectful but that may be the end of honoring your parent who is in a real bad way and is toxic or dangerous towards you and we have to go to our final break right now will be a lot more brief than the last one so please well as I said grace life radio requires a 12 -minute break and we need to also get our donations up or we won't have a program to have you interviewed on and so please send in your emails now because we're running out of time

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Chris Arnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages God willing one sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers

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John Murray's has been in heaven for quite some time but I think it may be a compilation of writings that have been put into one volume perhaps that never existed before I don't know that for a fact but I just know that it's a new book that's in print by John Murray the great scholar from Westminster Theological Seminary but anyway we are back now with our with our guest

01:39:25

Joe Thorne pastor lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in st. Charles Illinois and he is also the an author and the host of Doctrine and Devotion and we are talking about a

01:39:38

Christian response to juicy media gossip in the wake of the avalanche of the sex scandals among celebrities and politicians and I forgot to tell our anonymous listener please give us your full name and mailing address so we can get you a free copy of Note to Self the

01:39:54

Discipline of Preaching to Yourself by Joe Thorne we have another anonymous listener who says there is a famous politician running for the

01:40:07

Senate and he is a beloved figure amongst conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists and there seems to be a split amongst conservatives as to whether their support should be shown for this man because of accusations of sexually aggressive behavior to those outside of his marriage and even those who are far younger than him that have taken place for many decades my question to you is should we back away from our support of him until we know for certain that he is innocent of these charges or should we just join in with those who have been opposing him in light of this information to not support him it seems that a lot of the lack of support that is developing and the protest against his candidacy that is developing from conservatives is centered on his interview with a well -known

01:41:10

Fox host where he was mumbling and was fumbling and contradicting himself apparently in the interview what are your opinions on this well

01:41:22

I think anytime you're talking about these accusations you know some of them come off as very baseless at times and others of them seem more credible and so you know every person has to sort of make a decision when you're talking about these politicians as is what

01:41:37

I am hearing enough to make me pause enough to make me be cautious you know politicians are accused of things all the time and sometimes are true and sometimes they're not so if the accusation are of such a nature that and and they seem that there might be some credibility there to them you might tell which he might want to back away a little bit and then still wait to find out what happens but I would caution people against saying things like well you know if he's a

01:42:08

Christian the Lord's forgiven him the Lord's forgiven him I've forgiven him and he could be our leader it doesn't work that way because there are consequences for actions and men who are you know leaders who are you know really taking advantage of people sexually assaulting people they're not fit to lead and so you shouldn't support them they may be forgiven by the

01:42:33

Lord but they are unfit for office so I think I know what they're talking about if if if they if there is no evidence to you know properly show that someone is guilty then yeah

01:42:48

I mean what are you going to do you have to make a decision based on what you have seen and it's going to depend on you know the individual who is looking at the information

01:42:56

I certainly couldn't tell them what to do but I could I would say this if I had a suspicion based on accusations that a person was probably involved in the wrong sort of a thing it would certainly impact my support of them yeah

01:43:12

I know exactly obviously we both know exactly who this person is talking about and the the thing that just as the question indicates or the question slash comment indicates my greatest suspicion arose from the interview on Fox News when the person seemed to be the the person being accused seemed to be contradicting himself in the interview saying

01:43:38

I never first saying I don't remember that happening and then saying that the girl's parents approved of a relationship and then saying it never happened you know that now let me ask you a question

01:43:52

I mean I know you're not a psychologist and I'm not even saying that we should listen to psychologists necessarily but when somebody is on the spot there and they are being forced in some way or compelled in some way to give an answer for something especially if they know they're being recorded or in the spotlight that may make somebody misspeak out of nervousness how much do you how much of that do you give grace to a person in that regard sure

01:44:25

I want to give grace to people I really do and certainly people can misspeak but there's a difference between getting tongue -tied and misspeaking and radically contradicting yourself there's a pretty big difference there

01:44:37

I don't think we get too confused about what really happened either we remember it or we don't remember it but the story typically doesn't change and if the story is changing that's that's a pretty significant problem for me now oh by the way this last anonymous listener you also will receive note to self that the discipline of preaching to yourself by Joe Thorne if you give us your full name and mailing address and obviously

01:45:05

I'm not going to disclose that information over the air since you requested to be anonymous so don't worry about that I think that obviously one thing we all have to check ourselves on because I know

01:45:18

I'm guilty of it I know that I am guilty of vindictive joy when

01:45:23

I see people who are toppling like dominoes who have publicly been a great opponent to the

01:45:33

Christian Church and everything we stand for especially those who are involved in the political realm who fit that category because I don't really

01:45:42

I don't really have much of a vindictive spirit against celebrities because they're not really affecting my life in any way but but I guess they in some sense are since they help to mold cultural opinions but uh what is your response to that about how we might salivate every time we hear some some new revelation of somebody's sinister behavior that's being exposed and we may relish to hear more about their downfall and see them banished from any sphere of influence or prominence that they once enjoyed yeah well

01:46:24

I think a part of I think part of the problem here is that we are so you're so oriented toward entertainment that that we receive this kind of information sometimes as entertainment it's just fun and and I think it's easy because we dehumanize depersonalize these people we take no note they're made in the image of God and that the situation is real and that there are real people that are really hurting and when we kind of step away from all those things it's pretty easy to just salivate for it and to enjoy it and to revel in it it's really an inappropriate response to what's going on and people can

01:47:06

I think it's appropriate to rejoice in justice

01:47:12

I think it's appropriate to be have a sense of satisfaction when the bad guy is

01:47:19

God I think that's okay but there's a difference between that and and reveling in the chaos and the destruction itself right bad guy gets caught good all right that's a good thing but in my reveling in his punishment in my you know

01:47:36

I mean look at money does not delight in the death of the wicked right I mean there's a sense in which we ought to say wow this is the terrible thing war is a terrible thing even if it's necessary even if we have to take up arms against intruders in our homes for example if somebody died well it okay so if somebody assaults me and they're trying to kill me or my family and I wind up killing them okay so I stopped the bad guy that's a good thing but it's still ultimately like a horrible situation and I shouldn't you know we shouldn't be rejoicing in in destruction in general that was that kind of how

01:48:16

I think about it now I think and correct me if I'm wrong that there is nothing wrong with being delighted and thankful to God that wicked leaders and rulers are exposed for their behavior and are removed from their offices of influence and authority

01:48:38

I mean because I would be a hypocrite if I were to sit here and tell you that I am just saying oh we we got to remember that who is without sin should cast the first stone and we can't we can't be saying anything against this person and we all sin we have to just be forgiving and let that person alone but no if they are helping to they're helping the cause of the the evil one to become more and more prominent in our land if they are helping the cause of selfish women to have their babies murdered in their womb and selfish quote -quote parents of those children who are also the male parents of those children to also be involved in those decisions to murder those children because they don't want to pay for their upbringing or they don't even want to spend the time and exert the energy or to make any sacrifices to raise them then we should be happy that they're removed from office absolutely we can rejoice in righteousness we can rejoice in justice and we should it's the act of like the destruction itself while warranted in good like let's say that this person's career is destroyed that is good but there is there's a difference

01:50:10

I think between being the kind of person who was just really rejoicing and getting off on the idea that this guy is now suffering you know

01:50:20

I what they're suffering okay that that's the byproduct of what they've done and what justice is brought about but that's not what

01:50:28

I ultimately rejoice in what I'm rejoicing in is that justice is happening that people are protected and the bad guy it went down and that we're moving in a better direction in that particular situation so yeah we should rejoice in righteousness and injustice absolutely and we have

01:50:49

RJ in White Plains New York who says can you give us some helpful advice on how to use these scandals that we are seeing daily and throughout each day as an opportunity for evangelism to the lost among us oh yeah for sure

01:51:08

I think all the things that are happening in our culture that are in the public eye provide opportunities for us to connect the world to the gospel and so when we're looking at say the whole the sex scandal stuff that's going on and that's really the wrong word for it's not just sex abuse right right and what

01:51:29

I would what I would say is we can we can we can appeal to the reality that there is a deep brokenness in sexuality in American sexuality in particular there's a deep brokenness we we've gotten so much of it wrong we think it's okay to objectify people especially especially women to treat them as if they are a product for us to treat how we want pornography is the byproduct of that and it perpetuates that problem but if you can begin to unpack what's happening here on the whole spiritual level you can then begin to say so what's the answer to this what are we just going to educate people out of their sin are we gonna are we gonna enlighten people out of their depravity or is there an answer that actually changes not just what is done in public but is there an answer that changes the heart the human heart so that we actually see people who they are and ultimately

01:52:30

I don't know how we can come to a place where we can see people as anything other than molecules how are they not objects unless they are people made in God's image is well

01:52:43

I would one of the things that I would want to say to somebody in the context of a conversation about this scandal is the reason this is so grievous is because those women or those men who are abused they're people made in God's image and they should be treated as such they should be treated with love they should be protected they should be cared for and and sin is what's broken that and so from there we get the image of God we get the cause of sin and destruction in the world and to a

01:53:13

Savior who actually not only saves us from our sins but shows us what it means to interact with people individually and at the church level who fall into sexual sin and that there is there's the hope of restoration between man and God and even the hope of restoration inside the church when there is sexual misconduct but it is it is

01:53:38

Christ alone who is that answer now I know that some people may be highly offended by something

01:53:45

I'm going to say but I even posted my thoughts when these scandals first started to dominate the news that I found it interesting and still find it interesting that all of these people included among them leftists feminists and haters of God's word who are borrowing from a biblical worldview in their opposition to these celebrities newscasters and politicians who are involved in sexual sexually aggressive behavior and my my comments that I made publicly on Facebook were that if indeed sex outside of the confines of marriage and a lifetime commitment monogamously to one spouse of course until the

01:54:45

Lord chooses to take that person home is is if if sex outside of the confines of that relationship is completely not only acceptable but applaudable and beautiful and even to the extent where many enemies of the

01:55:06

Bible and enemies of God have called we were called us who are

01:55:12

Christians not only nerds and sexually repressed weirdos but also evil pharisaical judgmental persecutors of those outside of our own sphere of religion that if that's true if if that is a good and wonderful and beautiful thing then really why is there so much fuss because aren't these men who are in the spotlight just acting upon a secular definition of virility and you know you you really have to I believe borrow from a biblical worldview to come up with real genuine and logically consistent and non -hypocritical opposition to these men yeah

01:56:08

I think that they would probably respond by saying that we want people to be free to do what they want to do and let their freak flag fly but once they begin to exert their will onto another person who is not willing they are preaching at the very least a social contract so it's certainly not the same thing as a biblical perspective it doesn't carry the same weight as it does like we are much more grieved over this than I think the secular world would be because it's not the breach of a social contract it's truly sin and and so there's something inherently wrong with this not just culturally wrong with this yeah but obviously obviously these people these accusers are rightfully saying in the cases where these are these are things that actually occurred that they are rightfully saying that they are they're evil things that they are things that deserve punishment and to go to that extreme

01:57:07

I think that they have to borrow from a biblical worldview even if you are to say imposing your own sexual aggression on someone else is wrong you're really borrowing from a biblical worldview if we are just evolved bags of protoplasm who are supposed to enjoy sex outside of the confines of marriage who's to say that a man shouldn't be feeling out no pun intended who is going to respond favorably to his advances and are only the handsome stunningly handsome dreamy celebrity type men are the only they the ones that should get away with that and just the ugly men get brought up on charges for this

01:57:50

I know exactly what you're saying and I agree that all the vestiges of morality in our country are based on Judeo -Christian principles and it's not a typical worldview and so those like there is no real reason for our country to outlaw prostitution there is no outside of scriptural morality out of sense of right and wrong that God has revealed to us it's pretty it's a pretty difficult case to make that we should outlaw prostitution and this goes for a lot of things so yeah

01:58:25

I agree they have to borrow from a transcendent truth right and in order to say that this is wrong this is evil not just hey listen

01:58:37

I didn't like it and I wanted to make up for it but to claim that it's evil yeah they have to they have to borrow from us right and we are out of time and I want to make sure our listeners know that the website for Redeemer Fellowship in st.

01:58:51

Charles Illinois is Redeemer fellowship org Redeemer fellowship org and the website for your book for your podcast is doctrine and devotion calm doctrine and devotion calm and the word and A &E is spelled out doctrine and devotion calm

01:59:07

I want to thank you so much Joe Thorne not only for being my guest and for doing a phenomenal job as my guest but also for agreeing to be interviewed today with 30 seconds advance notice not a problem and the guy at the

01:59:20

Grand Canyon messed this out well I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who wrote in questions and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater