How Do I Effectively Mansplain To Emotional Women?

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01:27

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We are hosts Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age -old question, how do

01:39

I effectively mansplain to emotional women? Now, I just want to go ahead and tell you guys that this is probably, see,

01:48

Tim has lost it. Tim's already lost it. This is like the third or the fourth time that I've recorded this intro because Tim has just not been able to keep it together while I read it.

02:02

And then his laughter makes me start laughing, and so I would start laughing right at the beginning of the intro.

02:08

So this is like attempt four right now. Keep it together, man. And Tim is just not keeping it together.

02:17

Okay, so the title question is, how do I effectively mansplain to emotional women?

02:23

I don't know if it's just my deadpan presentation of that question that's getting you or what it is.

02:32

So normally what we do with these kinds of episodes is we typically, if there's been some sort of inspiration or something that's happened that motivated us to cover a specific topic for an episode, we typically take the time to sort of spell that out for you guys and explain what that situation was.

02:55

And we want to do that with this because there was a specific situation that did happen that motivated our desire to cover this topic.

03:04

But instead of explaining it to you, we thought it would be a little more helpful to just show it to you and let you listen to what happened.

03:13

Because I think if we just try to explain it, it'll lose some of the impact that is there when you just watch this clip.

03:25

And so I'm going to show you a clip from a,

03:30

I guess we'll just call it a conversation that happened between Chris Kdub is what

03:39

I think what he goes by online and on his podcast. But Chris had a, he hosted

03:48

Joe Luman. I think that's how you say her last name. I don't know if I'm mispronouncing it.

03:54

I'm sorry. I just, I'm not sure. I think it's Luman though. He invited her onto his show to talk about a tweet that she had put out.

04:08

And I've forgotten now what it was, but it was basically something along the lines of people don't need

04:13

Jesus in order to be saved. And so they were talking about that. And here they're not actually covering that topic.

04:21

They're covering women pastors right now in this conversation. The conversation kind of weaves and bobs through a few different issues.

04:30

And so we wanted to just take some time to play this clip to sort of set up this mansplaining episode.

04:37

So let's go ahead and take a listen. I don't, I mean. The Bible says that a woman pastoring other people is in sin.

04:43

It is a violation of what God has said. Absolutely. No, it's not.

04:49

Want me to bring up the verse? Are you going to bring up Timothy? Because come on, man.

04:54

Because come on, man. That was specifically for the church of Corinthians. And you know that.

05:00

All right. And if you don't know that, that's very concerning. Okay. I don't need you to quote the verse.

05:05

I have written about that verse. That's your claim. So many times. Actually, I wasn't going to Timothy.

05:12

For God is not a God of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. The women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, should be in submission, as the law says.

05:21

So this is clearly a verse teaching the submissiveness of the wife, which is not just in one church.

05:28

He says in all the churches. Okay. It just denied what you just said about it just being in one church.

05:36

No, it didn't. He said all the churches. Was that for Corinthians or not? No, he said all the churches.

05:44

Okay. You know what? I'm going to keep preaching and I'm going to keep asking with or without your permission. So it doesn't even matter.

05:50

I mean, I knew it didn't matter. I have to be, I have to be, I have to be faithful to God, not to you. And that's the supremacy that you think that I have to be faithful to you.

06:01

Okay. Let me, let me bring us back here so you can see us. So Tim, what, what just happened?

06:11

What did we just witness right there? Yeah. Well, I think there's a lot of things that you could say about that related to that kind of topic, but I mean, that's certainly just an example of an individual who, you know, has a position essentially that she is trying to maintain that women preachers are fine and they're okay.

06:30

And, you know, facts, logic, reason have absolutely nothing to do with the, you know, the conclusion that she's going to draw at that point.

06:41

Essentially you can present her with irrefutable evidence that her position is wrong, but then she'll double down on that and essentially just communicate what she wants to communicate and, you know, it takes offense along the way.

06:53

So, you know, that's, that's a, that's an example of just a conversation with, you know, between a man and a woman where in that kind of instance, the lady is certainly not being governed by reason or logic at that point.

07:08

Right. Yeah. And I think the thing that I really want to point out in that clip is, so Chris, he's, he's pulling up a specific verse.

07:15

So he, you know, he's proving a point. He's proving the point that the Bible teaches that women can't be pastors.

07:23

Right. So that's his point. And he's going to a specific passage. And what did he say?

07:28

First Corinthians, I think where Paul basically says, you know, the women he,

07:36

I charge women to keep silent. Yeah. Women are supposed to be silent. This is for all of the churches.

07:41

Those, those are the two specific points of the argument that prove his, his claim.

07:47

Right. And, right. First Corinthians 14, 33, essentially through 34.

07:54

So right. It's got, I got a confusion, but a piece as in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent and the churches for they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission as law also says.

08:04

Right. And so, so her response doesn't address that passage at all.

08:13

Right. She just, she totally ignores it. And instead she just starts saying,

08:20

Hey, I know what God told me. I need to be a pastor. I'm going to keep doing what I need to do. You're just trying to make, you're just trying to make me bow down to you.

08:29

Right. Right. And, and that's clearly not the point. He's, he's not saying bow down to me.

08:34

He's saying bow down to the Bible, right? Bow down to scripture, bow down to what

08:39

God has actually said. And she just simply doesn't address that at all. And so, so I guess the question then becomes, you know, in that sort of scenario,

08:51

I mean, how, how do you effectively mansplain? I think, well, yeah.

09:01

Yeah. I think in that kind of scenario that, I mean, there's plenty of scenarios like that that can happen. I think, you know, as you're on Twitter in particular, you know, some of this is a, you know, if I could just step back for a minute, some of this is essentially, there are male female dynamics that are happening there, but then this isn't, you know, there are also other dynamics that are happening where this is just, you know, arguing with the liberal in a certain sense too.

09:30

And so there's a, there's a lot of things that are happening there that it's hard to isolate, but then in particular,

09:38

I think one of the things that you want to think about in, you know, if you're asking the question, well, how do you effectively mansplain in that kind of situation?

09:45

I think that assumes the permissibility of mansplaining, and we may want to talk about that at some point.

09:51

But then, but then, you know, mansplaining is one of those outrageous things, but there are certainly situations that men should realize that they might find themselves in.

10:01

And people should find themselves in in general where facts and logic and reasoning and explaining things simply, you know, come up empty.

10:10

And so, I mean, I, I think I've been the type of person that, you know,

10:15

I have made this error throughout my life in a variety of different situations. And, you know, sometimes it, it seems like this is uniquely in some sense, the kind of thing that can happen in male -female interactions.

10:28

And we can talk about that. That's not like every single male -female interaction isn't characterized by that kind of thing, but there are times where, you know, you need to realize that you can explain something all day long, and you're not dealing with a problem of, you know, you're not dealing with like an intellectual problem in a certain sense.

10:47

And there are other things that are happening there and that, that go beyond just, you know, you being able to say something in the perfect way in order to get an outcome.

10:57

And so sometimes it really doesn't matter what you're saying, the content of the words, even like you just dealing with an individual who, for whatever reason, just is either hardened to the truth or just simply can't hear what you're saying.

11:10

And you're, there's really no way to do it, you know? So I think, you know, at a certain level, without wading into all the particulars, there are scenarios where you just realize that explaining, you know, mansplaining, it just is a tool that isn't going to get you very far, you know?

11:26

Yeah. So, so why don't, why don't we walk it, walk it back a little bit and, and you just explain to us what mansplaining actually is.

11:36

So, so do us a favor and mansplain what mansplaining is. The best way to do that would be if you would like self -identify as a woman.

11:46

If you could self -identify, then I could, you know, fully take on the role of mansplaining, you know, but yeah, no, mansplaining is just, what the word is intended to mean is it's when a man explains something to a woman in a patronizing way, or he says something to her that, in a way that, you know, insults her intelligence or demeans her in a certain sense.

12:11

But then part of the problem is that we're living in a society right now that anytime a man explains anything to a woman, that's essentially being lumped into this category of mansplaining.

12:20

And so there really isn't much of a place in our society for the idea of mansplaining in general.

12:25

I mean mansplaining is just like one of those weird words that's come up that basically as it's the product of critical theory and it problematizes just normal interactions between men and women in general.

12:39

And so, you know, it does have a, you know, a, it is a word that has a specific meaning, like anytime a man does explain something to a woman in a patronizing way.

12:49

But then really in common usage, anytime a man explains anything to a woman, it's going to be considered mansplaining.

12:56

And it seems like one of those things that it can't, you know, it's sort of like you mentioned critical theory, which teaches this idea.

13:08

I've interacted with some people who have told me this recently that essentially, you know, if you're a black person, you can't be racist towards a white person.

13:18

Right. And so in the same way, it seems like with the idea of mansplaining, there is no such thing as womansplaining.

13:27

Right. Right. Right. Why is that? Well, yeah, I mean, so part of it is like in you're picking up on something that really we do need to talk about.

13:39

Like, so like there is no concept of womansplaining because like these are, these are terms that developed in through the worldview of critical theory and the worldview of critical theory, essentially what, what, what critical theory does is it problematizes every interaction that happens like every normal interaction, there's a problem that's introduced.

13:59

And so the world is seen through the lens of these power dynamics and men are conceived as being, you know, dominant in our society.

14:07

And I mean, for good reason, because God has designed the world in such a way that men are going to ultimately rule one way or another.

14:13

But then when men are perceived as being in a position of power, because men are perceived as being in a position of power, that anytime they interact with, you know, women who are seen as being an oppressed minority, even though there's more women than men, anytime those interactions are happening, there's fundamentally going to be power dynamics that are at work.

14:34

And so then, you know, for a man to explain something to a woman in this framework, it's basically an exercise in patriarchal dominance over a woman period by virtue of the power dynamics that are, you know, supposed to be implicit in every single one of these interactions.

14:49

So the reverse of that can't be true, right? So the reverse of that can't be true. It can't be that a woman would woman explain something to a man, like to explain to him something in some sort of patronizing way, even though that happens all the time, you know?

15:01

Oh yeah. Like, like if you ever watch any sitcom, I mean, right. You know, the fathers are always presented as like doofuses.

15:10

Yeah. The doofuses that need a woman in their life to basically explain to him how to walk and eat and chew gum.

15:16

Yeah. Like, like, I mean, I'm, I'm pretty sure it's a common, you know, episode plot to have like the, the wife she's about to go out on like a, you know, ladies night or something.

15:29

And the father has to take care of the kids for a whole night by himself alone.

15:34

And so she has to pain, she feels like she needs to painstakingly explain every single aspect of how to take care of children by yourself.

15:45

And, and obviously because of the way the episodes are written, the men are always like doofuses that, yeah, they just stumble through taking care of the children all night long.

15:55

And then somehow in the end it all ends up working out, but then, you know, it feels like if you flip those, if you flip those genders there, all of a sudden you've got a, a terrible case of mansplaining going on.

16:10

Right. Well, no, that's, that's the truth. Yeah. And I mean, that's kind of, I haven't watched the

16:15

Marvel series She -Hulk or whatever, but then I listened to some reviews about it. And it's one of those things where, you know, the reviews basically describe it as an exercise in terrible writing.

16:26

And one of the reasons why it's an exercise in terrible writing is because, you know, essentially like She -Hulk comes as a

16:31

Hulk fully formed, right? Like not needing anything that Bruce has to offer, despite the fact that Bruce Banner has been

16:39

Hulk for years and knows something about the problem and knows something about how to handle it. Yeah, has fought like world ending, you know, has fought through world ending cataclysmic events.

16:48

Yeah. I mean, the most natural kind of like interaction that you could imagine that would happen with him training someone who just now acquired this problem that he's, you know, had to live through for years and years and years would be that he would explain the basics to her about how to interact with it.

17:03

But then the whole premise of the show apparently is that she's strong and capable and independent and doesn't need him to explain anything.

17:09

And, you know, more than that, she's better at being a Hulk than he is, you know? Right. Right. Like, you know, because just by virtue of her being a woman and he literally has nothing he, he could offer her as far as any way of help, because that would just be intolerable to the modern mind.

17:24

But that's just an example of how these things actually work in practice. And so there's no such thing as a, what was woman's planning in that way is there's only, it only goes one direction, but then, you know, basically anytime a man like dares to suggest that he might be useful, like to a woman by providing an alternative explanation, that's going to be viewed under the lens of mansplaining.

17:47

Essentially mansplaining is anytime a man, you know, explains anything to a woman that she doesn't necessarily want to hear, you know?

17:54

Yeah. It's going to be viewed as condescending. Yeah. And even if he, even if she wants it, then other people will view that act as condescending for her, you know?

18:02

Yeah. White Knights coming in to defend you from the patriarchy. You don't know what you're suffering from.

18:08

Yeah. Which is so funny. Cause it's like, if you read the passage that KW was mentioning, yeah. Like in the passage, you have an example of the importance of mansplaining, right?

18:17

So for God is not a God of confusion, but peace as in all the churches of the saints, the woman should keep silent in the churches for they're not permitted to speak, but should be in submission as law.

18:26

So says if there's anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. So you have a, you know, you have a verse here that's not only, you know, making mansplaining permissible, but it's advocating it, you know?

18:42

As the only option. Right. As the only option. Right. And as if it's something that's necessary that would happen there and that's where the real scandal is.

18:51

And so part of this discussion is about mansplaining in general and whatever, you know, KW was doing, he was certainly mansplaining to her in a way that is intolerable to modern minds.

19:01

So part of it's like a mansplaining discussion. Part of it's like a, you know, how do you mansplain to emotional women?

19:07

And I do want to do the, you know, do want to go out of my way here to say that when we talk about like mansplaining to emotional women, what people instantaneously hear when you say something like that is that, you know, all women are irredeemably emotional and all women are irredeemably irrational, you know, kind of mindless animals or something like that that can't think.

19:33

And, you know, so let me go out of my way to say that's not like you don't have, I don't know why you would go there with that.

19:38

There are women sometimes who get caught up in emotion, who think with their emotions. This is an example of that kind of thing.

19:46

And we ought to be able to talk about those kinds of examples. And then it's a very real question like men have, like, what do

19:51

I do when I'm talking to a woman? She like just logic and facts and reason seem to be coming up empty.

20:01

And this is the kind of question that no one's really willing to go to, to actually describe and give actually helpful tips.

20:07

Like, well, what do you do in those kinds of scenarios? Right. And those are scenarios that are just characteristic of male, female interactions in general across the board.

20:16

And, you know, I know you're not allowed to say it, but this, like, there are times of the month where like that's more prevalent than others too.

20:25

And these are, these are things that happen. And, you know, there's not a lot of people out there who are willing to step in and actually answer, well, what do you do in those kinds of scenarios when you're just not able to reason?

20:39

And, you know, and so part of it's that, like, you know, and then, and then there's also just the reality that I think as you're on social media in general, one of the things you'll realize is a lot of people do think what their feels, you know, they do think in a very emotional way.

20:55

And it used to be that like, that's more characteristic of women, not all women, but more characteristic of women in general.

21:03

But now one of the things that's happened is that like the more feminized our culture actually is, like, the more that men are starting to think like with their emotions, like in a more pervasive way.

21:14

I mean, I remember growing up, you know, I played sports growing up. I was, you know, I played basketball,

21:19

I played tennis, I played different sports in high school at a very, you know, competitive level or whatever.

21:26

But the kind of guys I were, I was around growing up were a lot of like, you know, very masculine alpha men kind of guys.

21:34

And I mean, I remember going to seminary like that, this was, you know, some of my first encounter with guys that were more on the emotional end of the spectrum.

21:43

And, you know, growing up, it's like, like, you know, you learn to talk with men in a certain way.

21:50

And then you realize that male, female interactions are a little bit different. But I mean, I remember like going to seminary, like, you know,

21:56

I have certain friends that I would talk to and, you know, all of a sudden it's just like, they're starting, like starting to take offense like a lot more readily than I had ever experienced growing up.

22:12

Like in a way that was really weird, you know, like it was really weird. Like, you know, Hey, you didn't, you know, call me, you haven't called me lately, you know, and I'm hurt by that.

22:21

And it's just like, what in the world is going on? What has happened?

22:29

Like, like, you know, and I think some of my responses in those moments were like,

22:34

Hey, like, you know, I don't, I don't have these kinds of conversations with men.

22:43

I'm sorry. I don't want to do that. We don't go there. So I don't know what's going on here, but no, we don't, we don't go there.

22:52

Well, that's a symptom. That's just a symptom of your toxic masculinity. That's right. So, but then the discourse has changed now to where, you know, you think about like social media and the way it's working now, a lot of interactions now are more plagued by like the more effeminacy and men is on the rise and more that you, you, you do see men having a lot more emotional reactions to things.

23:16

And, and so there are, there are, um, so, so there's male, female interactions here.

23:22

There's like a man explaining kind of interaction here. And then like there's practical questions to ask, you know, how do you interact on social media?

23:29

How do you act with, you know, um, significant women in your life? And, you know, hopefully we can talk about some of those things.

23:36

Yeah. Why don't we, Tim, why don't we start with just, you know, why? So you mentioned that typically now, now

23:44

I know you said, this is changing more and more, um, as time progresses, but typically women, um, are more prone to, to think primarily through their feelings now that, you know, obviously that's a general statement.

23:59

Um, there's, you know, which generalizations are now you're, you're totally not allowed to make. So that's another subject, you know, to.

24:07

So it's a general statement, meaning there are exceptions to that, but then the reason it's a general statement is because it's typically true.

24:15

Um, so, and, and men are, men are, you know, ideally not supposed to think that way as much, they're supposed to be a little more straightforward in their thinking.

24:28

And so, so why don't we just start there and, and why don't you explain to us why it is that women are, um, more prone to think through primarily their feelings?

24:40

Yeah. I mean, I, I think there, there are profound differences in the way that men and women communicate across the board.

24:47

And this, this point was, you know, driven home to me, um, early on in life.

24:52

I mean, when I, uh, you, you can, you know, tell this when you're in grade school and everything else, but then, yeah.

24:58

You know, when I was in college, I worked at a bank and because there was a job that allowed me to make a lot of money and not work a lot of hours.

25:05

And, but, you know, primarily women work at banks and in the part of that's related to just the test that the banks, uh, have in order for you to even get a job there.

25:17

A lot of them aren't geared towards a typical female kind of personality as far as that goes. Uh, but somehow

25:23

I figured out the right answers to. Yeah. I was about to say, didn't you work at a bank? I did, but I could figure these tests out and know what they want me to say, you know?

25:34

So that's my excuse, man. Okay. Don't think too much into it. Uh, but, uh, we'll let, we'll let the audience decide.

25:40

You're overanalyzing this. Oh man. But, uh, no,

25:46

I, it's amazing to watch how, you know, women communicate in general. Like, I mean, I, I, like when

25:52

I'm sitting there listening to a lot of the ladies communicate, a lot of it is small talk, you know, ladies are a lot, a lot more geared towards small talk, a lot more geared towards chit chat.

26:01

Um, you know, I would notice that the conversation would just rapidly change, like from conversation to conversation to conversation.

26:08

Like it's just subject chain after subject change after subject change. It wasn't linear, you know, it was just, uh, you know, subject change after subject change.

26:17

And by the time I had something to add to the conversation, they were like four or five conversations in, and there's no point at that point anymore.

26:23

And so a lot of me working at the bank just involved me to just listening and just trying to figure out if I could tell the difference between the way that they communicate and the way that, you know, men communicate on a normal basis.

26:34

I mean, men like to debate, men like to argue, men like to discuss things. You know, women typically are more geared towards small talk.

26:41

Um, as far as that goes. I mean, these are not hard and fast rules, obviously, but they're just like often like ladies can get very uncomfortable with, um, prolonged, linear kind of discussions where you stick to one topic over a long period of time, you know, and this is a major problem just between men and women in marriage in general is that a guy has some sort of expectation that you're going to like talk about a subject and you're going to stick to that subject.

27:11

Right. And you're going to, you're going to go in a, like a orderly way, you know, and what typically happens is like, you know, you put a male and a female together who have little experience communicating and the guy is trying to stick to one topic and pretty soon it's just like the lady has changed the subject like 10 times in a row, you know, but in her mind she hasn't, right.

27:30

Her mind is all connected in certain ways. It's just, um, and this can be a profound source of frustration, but you know, women by nature are meant to be more nurturing and more compassionate than men.

27:42

And so part of this, um, is that, um, the way that God's designed men and women and the roles that God's designed men and women to perform are just fundamentally different.

27:51

He's created us fundamentally different. And so a lot of what's happening like particularly as it relates to social media kind of conversations is that you have a lot of ladies who are basically, you know, they're thinking with their emotions, but then, um, part of what they're thinking is they're thinking through this primary lens of offense, right.

28:09

And so whether it's offense, like personal offense or offense on behalf of others, like that, what's happened is that a lot of the contemporary discourse is, is about protecting weak and vulnerable people, right.

28:23

And sticking up for weak and vulnerable people and thinking about how like the impact of these words that they may have on certain individuals.

28:30

And, and when you let that kind of like when you don't have any check on that, right, then what you have is kind of compassion that's out of control.

28:38

And you know, God's obviously made women to be more compassionate than men, but you need like, what you need is you need both.

28:45

Right. So like a man on his own, like is, is typically just can be like hard and unyielding and you know, um, you know, the

28:54

Ben Shapiro kind of facts don't care about your feelings kind of thing and just lay it out there and straight talk.

28:59

And, you know, all that, like men can be, um, like what matters is what's true and what's right in this situation, regardless of any other considerations than women can, because they're oriented to be more nurturing and more compassionate, they can tend toward tend to essentially, um, prioritize the emotional impact of certain things on other people.

29:21

And what you need is you need both, right? Right. So you need both in that kind of equation, but what you can't, what happens when you have a society that basically is suppressing all the masculine kind of input at every level, then you just get compassion out of control is what can happen.

29:38

And so then you're, you're witnessing the kind of society right now that's basically compassion out of control. Right. So it's just, it's all about like how everything makes an individual feel over and against it, you know, it's connection to reality at that point.

29:53

And so in, in, you know, the, the video you mentioned, you have a lady who essentially cares more about the emotional impact of the words than she does about the truth value at that point.

30:03

Right. But that's not obviously symptomatic of all women because you have women who are commenting on that who can see how crazy it actually is.

30:10

Right. But then that's just a, that's a female temptation that happens that men have to figure out how they're going to interact with.

30:17

It's not, it's not exclusively a female temptation, but it's more of a female temptation as, as far as that goes.

30:25

Right. So I guess, do you, do you want to go ahead and talk about like how do you interact with that kind of person?

30:34

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I guess it just depends on what kind of interaction you're talking about. Right. Yeah. So you have like the, so like if you're

30:42

Chris, you know, how, how do you interact with, how do you interact with Joe? Right. Yeah. Well, that's, what's really interesting is that, you know, he's put himself in a spot where he is debating a woman online.

30:53

And, you know, there's a lot of guys who are more on the patriarchal end of things who essentially would point out that like, maybe there's something strange about that, you know?

31:08

Like it's just not helpful. Yeah. I mean, so I think because men and women think differently in, in a lot of ways, like you know, it used to be that there's, there's there's an expectation that a man would not make a spectacle of a woman in that kind of way.

31:27

It would try to like protect a woman. And, and part of that would, you know, involve not even debating a woman, if that makes sense.

31:38

Because like in a certain sense, like you're better qualified to do it than she would be.

31:46

Right. And so now like, this is like wildly offensive to most people like to think about, but, um,

31:52

I can hear people screaming now. Yeah. Tim saying women are too stupid.

32:00

I didn't say that. No, I didn't say that. I just said that, um, you know, debating is normally the province of men, you know, and that's normally something that God has given men to excel at, you know, and there is like,

32:13

I watched this, uh, good faith, you know, good faith gospel coalition debate between a guy and a, you know, as the lady, uh,

32:20

Rebecca McLaughlin, um, or however her name is said, I can't remember, but like the, you could tell that like the guy was in a little bit of an awkward spot because he, you know, he spent the whole time basically like trying to tiptoe around, you know, with the debate because he couldn't respond.

32:38

He had gloves on the whole time. He had gloves on the whole time, you know? And so, you know, he ended up, you know, being awkward and, you know,

32:45

Rebecca, I'm just so thankful for you, you know, that, that kind of stuff. And, you know, and it's, um, you know, there's a sense in which like debating and things like that are kind of dirty work, you know, and, and, um, you know, just, yeah,

32:59

I mean, go, go watch, uh, James White debate someone.

33:05

And, and, you know, sometimes people, I, I think they watch those debates and they kind of get caught a little off guard because the

33:15

James White and whoever, whoever it is that he's debating, they, they often will just make statements like, you know, my, my opponent has falsely stated

33:28

X, right. Um, or my, my opponent is mistaken about whatever.

33:34

Right. Right. And so sometimes they present these statements that I think a lot of people, if they had someone say that about them, their first response would to be, let me get offended when, but then, but then there's nothing objectively offensive about that.

33:52

Right. Like there's, and if you're thinking through the lens of offense, right, right. And, and both, both, uh, you know, both people know that.

34:01

So no pert, neither James White nor his opponent tip it. Typically there, there are a few cases that I can think of where this is not true, but typically, you know, they don't get offended.

34:12

They just, they just move on, you know, like, okay, that's what they said.

34:17

You know, I think they're wrong, but whatever, you know, and, and, and I get it, like, it feels a little weird to just come out and say that same thing, you know, about a woman, right.

34:31

Like, Hey, like, like to be that, um, Oh, it feels, yeah, it does.

34:37

It feels like, uh, it's the same kind of dynamic that happens. Like if you're thinking about playing basketball, you know, at the park, uh, at a, you know, pickup game or something like that.

34:46

It's the same kind of dynamic where the moment the lady, like the girl steps out of the court and wants to play that game fundamentally change for everyone around them.

34:57

You know, guys feel like they have this responsibility to protect a woman, right. Not to expose her to shame and scorn and ridicule fuel and everything else.

35:06

Like there's this desire that men have as a God given desire to try to care for the weaker vessel, to protect the weaker vessel.

35:13

Right. And then like, when, you know, when a woman steps on the basketball court, all of a sudden, like she may not realize what happened, but with every guy in the basketball court, there's this shift that's just happened.

35:26

And if you're the guy who has to guard the girl, you experienced it most profoundly because you can't try, you know?

35:35

So not like, so you have to like, just totally, um, change the way you're playing and you're in like a lose, lose situation.

35:45

So if you, if you look like you're trying, everyone's going to rag you for looking like you try like to keep her from scoring.

35:50

Right. But then if she scores on you, they're going to rag you even harder. So then you're in this position where you have to like, make it look like you're not trying while trying hard enough to keep her from making a fool of you.

36:04

Right. And sell it to everyone so that you're not going to get ragged either way.

36:10

You know? And so, but that's like, because you have this desire to protect a woman and I mean the fact remains,

36:16

I think that, you know, men spend their whole life learning how to argue and learn how to discuss things. And it's just not the same with women in that way, you know?

36:23

So there's differences in the way that we're made and a guy really can make, you know, make a sport out of a lady, like when it comes to debates and in the way that Kato did, you know?

36:34

Yeah, no, he, yeah, he definitely, I mean, he was exposing the foolishness there for sure. Right.

36:39

But then it doesn't like, you don't come away, like there's part of you that like laughs at it, you know, at how foolish you made her look.

36:47

But then there's another part of you that's like, Ooh, you know, like we want to kind of protect her from that too, you know?

36:53

So like there is a sense in which like you're asking, well, how do you interact online? I do think there is this sense in which like a guy who really, you should be careful, you know, that you don't make a spectacle out of every lady that you come across, you know, like as far as that goes.

37:10

And it used to be that there's rules that like a polite guy would try to shelter a woman from that.

37:17

But then what happens is that like when egalitarianism takes hold of a society, then it's like a woman can do anything a man can do and better.

37:24

And then women enter into the public space in the same kind of way. And then like, one of the things that happens is that you have a lot of interactions along these lines that really are imbalanced in certain ways.

37:35

And you have to pretend like they're not right. You have to pretend like they're not, but then they are.

37:42

And you have to, and it might be that like mansplaining in those moments really isn't the most helpful thing to do, period.

37:50

You know, I'm not, I'm not throwing, there's a place for mansplaining in fact, mansplaining is one of my favorite things to do, but rightly understood.

38:02

But, but like, no, but I mean, there's a sense in which you, you, there are, you do have to be careful, you know?

38:08

So, so are you saying like, okay, so Joe puts out a, you know, puts out the tweet or whatever.

38:17

You don't need Jesus to be saved. Basically that's,

38:22

I'm sort of paraphrasing. I didn't look up the tweet before this, but it was, I think it was something along those lines.

38:29

It was something about like, you don't need Jesus. Some people might need Jesus, but everyone doesn't need

38:34

Jesus. So essentially like a borderline universalist worldview, if not just full on universalism.

38:44

So, I mean, is the response just, you know, let that kind of thing just, yeah, just, you know, just let her do whatever she's doing and, and don't ever like rebuke that because she's a woman?

38:59

No, I mean, certainly you're going to have plenty of examples in the scriptures of, you know, Jesus doing that, you know, that Jezebel who's, you know, seducing my servants and that kind of thing.

39:09

I'll throw her into a sickbed and all that. So I think there, there has to be some kind of place. And the more that, you know, egalitarianism takes over the church and takes over the world in general, you have to have some kind of context for that.

39:21

But then there is this sense in which, there is a sense in which you're, you have to go into that a little bit reluctantly.

39:31

Does that make sense? Okay. Like you have to, I do think giving honor to the weaker vessel is not going to be, you know, making a sport out of her, turning her into a, just exposing her to the same level of scorn and ridicule that you would to men.

39:49

And in a lot of ways, I mean, I just think there's, you do have to think through some of those things.

39:55

I'm not saying there's no place for it. I'm just trying to say that like, just, you know, I probably wouldn't want to debate a woman myself.

40:02

Right. Right. You know, like in terms of, you know, I would, you know, you have to interact with her ideas in a public way, you know?

40:12

And so I would, I would feel more comfortable just interacting with some of her public statements and exposing them that kind of way.

40:18

But then just to have a one -on -one debate or something like that, I'd probably stay away from that if it were me just because I, I wouldn't, there's no way to win, you know what

40:29

I mean? There's no winning in that. Right. Like, like you end up looking bad no matter what you do, you know?

40:34

Yeah. Yeah. Especially like in the, in the case with Joe, I mean, she just,

40:43

Joe excels at playing the victim and making herself the victim. And so, and she has a lot of what

40:51

I'll call rabid followers that blindly view her as a perpetual victim, no matter what, no matter what is said, you know?

41:01

And, and so you're kind of, depending on how you handle it, you can kind of be playing into that a little bit.

41:10

Right. Yep. So, so it seems like, it seems like when you interact with that kind of person, you have, you do have to be really careful about now, now they're going to do it.

41:22

They're going to pull that tactic no matter what, but you, you yourself probably have to be pretty careful so that you're not, you're making sure you're not playing into it.

41:31

Right. And, and you are trying to show a certain type of respect towards them. Right. Now that, that, that's not necessarily a comment on, on Chris at all.

41:40

That's just more like a general. Well, I think we all have to think, what do we do in a, like it used to be that that wasn't a thing, you know, before social media, you know, it wasn't so much of a thing in the way that right now it's just like, it is like a pervasive society wide trend that now you have to think, well, how do

42:02

I engage at this level? You know, and I know a lot of guys who will basically, you know, if a woman on Twitter starts going after them, they, they'll look at them and say,

42:11

Hey, you know, I'm happy to discuss this with your husband kind of thing, you know, and that totally scandalizes them.

42:17

But that, that may be the kind of thing that you might want to say, you know, like I'm happy to talk with your husband about this, but I'm not gonna, you know,

42:25

I'm not going to make a spectacle of you. I can, you know, like in that way, you know?

42:30

Right. And, and so keep going, keep going with what you're doing.

42:37

So man, like, like I, I think there might be situations where you refuse to mansplain, even though mansplaining in itself is not necessarily a wrong, you know, it just might be like, this is, you know, not the situation for that, you know, out of respect and out of respect for the weaker vessel and, you know, honor showing honor and, you know, not like, you know, you're in a lose lose situation, you know, no matter what you're, you're just, you're in a lose lose situation.

43:07

Right. So, okay. Think about this for a second. I guess the first, the first statement should be when it comes to a person that is obviously governed primarily by their emotions and like a just totally unrestrained manner.

43:32

Right. The first word of advice would be, don't marry that person.

43:38

Right. Yes, yes, yes.

43:43

And that would be, I mean, there are some ladies who are very much that way, right? Like very much.

43:49

Just they, they only know how to think with their emotions. You can't have a conversation with them and they turn everything into a source of offense.

43:57

Like every interaction, everything you do, everything that you fail to do every, you know, it's all just, you know, seeing through the lens of offense and you're going to be at their mercy of the offense, buzzsaw your whole marriage.

44:11

And I would say, yeah, stay away from that kind of lady who just that's her, you know? Right. So, you know, a lot of ladies kind of can go in and out of that a little bit.

44:22

But then there's breaks on it, you know, but then if that's you, then if that's that lady, then just, yeah, keep it.

44:30

That's great advice. So that would be the, that would be the Proverbs contentious woman, right?

44:35

It's better to sleep in the corner of a rooftop, right? And there's a category for that now. I mean, like, there's a kind of person though who hears you acknowledge that there's that type of category.

44:44

And then they think that basically you're saying all women are that and it's like, well, no, like attack on one is not attack on all.

44:51

Like there's, like there is such a thing as a contentious woman and it would be better to not marry that woman for sure.

44:57

But then that is going to be the kind of woman who responds to everything with offense, you know, as a knee jerk reaction response to everything with offense, and then refuses to hear any kind of explanation whatsoever about why that offense is misplaced or wrong or misguided or it's just giving an answer before you hear, right?

45:20

Which is folly and shame. It's just, I'm offended. Do whatever I say. You're at my mercy, you know, kind of thing.

45:28

But yeah, don't marry that person. Right. So setting that person aside, you know, obviously, so marriages,

45:38

I mean, marriages are just really hard in general. I mean, you're, you're,

45:43

I forget who said it, but you know, a marriage is two sinful people trying to live together, right?

45:51

And take two sinners, put them under on the roof and then watch them. Right. See each other in different ways. Right. And so any, anyone going into marriage thinking that there's not going to be issues along the way is just, they're just, they're totally ignorant to what they're stepping into.

46:05

So there's obviously going to be issues. I mean, that's just normal for sinful people. For a husband, what, what's the counsel in terms of like when you run into these situations where, you know,

46:20

Hey, okay. So, so my wife is not like the contentious woman. Right. But then we have, you know, here's a situation where I feel like I just can't say the obvious without,

46:35

It taken being taken the worst possible light. Right. Right. Right. So, so what do you do with that?

46:41

Yeah. I mean, I, I think that's a, that's the kind of thing that I think that there's been a lot of bad teaching on over the course of the church.

46:51

And so there's a lot of guys who essentially will look at scenarios like that. And then they will conclude from Cicero scenarios like that, that like essentially like the man's primary impulse is to mansplain.

47:06

Right. So the best primary, like, and not just in a patronizing way, but just to try to explain, you know, and so there are times where, you know, like when the ladies offended you, like, what do you do?

47:18

And there's a lot of pastors who will come along and just basically say, Hey, just say you're sorry. Right. So, Hey, man, no matter, no matter what the situation is, just like,

47:26

Hey, the first thing you need to do is start off with an apology. Right.

47:31

Yeah. I mean, if she's, if she's upset, it must be that you did something wrong and just say, you're sorry.

47:37

Even if you don't think you did anything wrong, just say it in order to cool the temperature down. And I would just say,

47:43

Hey, well, that's horrible advice. Like that's like, that's, that's what you call lying. Right. Right. Yeah.

47:48

So like if you, if you didn't actually, I think it's, um, I guess it's a Doug Wilson maybe that says, don't, you know, he says husbands shouldn't apologize if they haven't done anything wrong or that's like a, yeah, that's not, he, he's a lot, a lot more witty about it than I was, but that's a general idea.

48:10

Yeah. I mean, you know, and that's a different subject matter. I don't think a guy should, I don't think men or women should ever apologize ever.

48:16

Uh, I think what we should do is ask forgiveness. Uh, but that's a, you know, a different topic, but meaning like the

48:21

Bible commands us to ask forgiveness. It doesn't just say, say sorry. Right. And when you say sorry, like that doesn't mean anything.

48:28

Like, that doesn't communicate you're at fault. Yeah. All that communicates is like,

48:33

Hey, you know, like I stepped on your toe. Sorry. Right. Well, that isn't saying I didn't, your dog died.

48:39

Sorry. Sorry. Your dog. That didn't mean I killed him. You know, if I killed him and I was saying,

48:44

I was sorry, that'd be totally different. Right. Uh, but like, so I think we should quit. Like Bible never commands us to say sorry.

48:51

It commands us to say, will you forgive me? And I think we should, we would do better to ask forgiveness. Yeah. But then if you think in those terms,

48:59

I need to ask forgiveness when she's upset, then it puts everything in a lot more clarity as to what's happening.

49:06

Because if you're going to ask forgiveness, then you say, Hey, will you forgive me? Then the next logical thought is for what, right?

49:13

What are you asking forgiveness for? What did you do wrong? And at that point you realize I don't do anything wrong.

49:20

You know, I mean, if you didn't do anything wrong, you don't have anything to say there, then that tells you you can't say that or else you're lying.

49:27

Does that make sense? Yeah. Probably the closest thing you could even say is, is not, Hey, will you forgive me?

49:32

But instead just say, Hey, I'm sorry that you're so upset. That doesn't necessarily,

49:40

I don't recommend, you know, saying that though. Yeah. It doesn't do anything. Like, Hey, I'm sorry you're upset. Like that just stirs the pot for sure.

49:48

Yeah. I'm sorry. You're so thin skinned that you took everything out of context and read into it the wrong way.

49:54

I mean, that didn't do anything. Right. But that's what a lot of people are. They're trained to do that and that's just a wrong response.

49:59

So like just saying you need to ask forgiveness if you did anything wrong. But I mean, if your wife is upset,

50:04

I mean, you really should consider did you actually send there? Right. That should be a normal step in the process.

50:10

And if you can't think of anything that you did, then, you know, it may be that most of the time you say,

50:19

Hey, well, let me, you know, let me think about this for a minute and pray about it for a minute.

50:25

And let me consider what you're saying and get back with you. Cause I, I want to see if there's something

50:30

I can ask forgiveness for. So I do think that's a good step in general, but there are times where it's just like you're in a situation where a person's just jumping to conclusions that are totally unjustified and you have to figure out what to do at that point.

50:43

Right. So, I mean, you know, you, you can imagine like if I'm walking out, I use this example sometimes, but they can imagine

50:50

I'm walking out. I'm outside. My wife is walking outside.

50:56

I see a baby crawling into the street. One of my babies was crawling in the street. And then

51:01

I make a mad dash for the baby. My wife just so happens to get out of the vehicle at that point or something like that.

51:07

And I run into her and, you know, headbutt her and she falls down and, you know, gets knocked out and laying on the ground while I'm making a dash for the baby.

51:16

Right. And then, you know, the, once she comes to, she basically like, you know,

51:21

I can't believe that you're so insensitive and I can't believe that you're so, you just don't care about anyone but yourself.

51:28

Right. And, uh, you know, uh, you're just blundering along, you know, like some kind of, uh, idiot running around, not knowing, not caring about the consequences of your actions.

51:39

I mean, at a certain point it's just like, Whoa, hold on. I was trying to save a baby, you know?

51:45

Yeah. And if you can't get that out, if it's like, I don't want to hear it, you know, I'm just so mad at you. I don't want to talk to you.

51:51

It's like, well, and you're like, I'm trying to explain, honey, you have to, you know, it's just, no,

51:56

I don't want to hear it. You know, at some point it's like, you can't just say you're sorry. You know what I'm saying? You can't just like, that doesn't fix anything.

52:03

You're in a situation where like, you don't need to pray about it and reflect on it. Like it's just a total misunderstanding, right?

52:11

It's a total misunderstanding and you have to have some ability to talk. And so like in those kinds of scenarios, you got to figure out what to do.

52:16

So on the one extreme, it's just the knee jerk response. It's just, if their wife is upset, you say, you're sorry, period.

52:23

Right. Right. Right. Now the other, like where you can go in a bad way with that is just to say, okay, well

52:30

I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm not going to treat my wife as if she, like I'm not going to allow her just to emote on me like that.

52:39

Right. So I'm going to force her to have a logical, linear, straightforward conversation right now that follows, you know, normal man rules of communicating and she's going to, you know, have to be patient, listen to my explanations, you know, and let me explain myself fully and then, you know, go from there.

53:08

And, and I would say that that, that would be like the, the opposite is just to say, okay, I'm not just going to say,

53:13

I'm sorry, I'm going to mansplain for as long as it takes for us to get to understanding.

53:19

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. And I would say that that isn't necessarily the most helpful thing always to do either.

53:27

Right. So like, like if you get into a, like a conflict where like you really have, like, you do something offense is taken and that offense is taken unrighteously as far as you can tell.

53:41

Right. And you tried like what, what typically happens just for guys to understand what's happening in these kind of scenarios is like, you say something fence is taken.

53:50

And then you think to yourself, okay, I, that was based on a misunderstanding.

53:55

If I can just explain the misunderstanding, everything will be okay. Right. Right. But then the problem is that once you start trying to explain the misunderstanding, offense will get taken at your explanation of the misunderstanding.

54:09

Right. Yeah. And then once the fence is taken at your explanation of like the, why it's a misunderstanding, then you've, then you're thinking to yourself, why now

54:19

I need to explain the new offense that was taken, why that's not reasonable.

54:26

Right. Right. Now all of a sudden you're caught up in the weeds. Right. And then pretty soon you're like 10 misunderstandings down the road, still trying to figure out how to dig your way back to the first.

54:37

Right. Right. And there's no ability to get back to the first because what you're, what's happening is you're kind of in a destructive communication pattern that has no answer, right?

54:48

There's no like, I mean, there's no like, um, let's reason this out kind of answer once the emotions get going.

54:56

Right. And so then what happens is that like often the more pervasive the misunderstandings happen at that point, then a man can just let himself get frustrated with the scenario.

55:08

Right. Right. Yeah. And then the more that he's frustrated, the more that then the wife will respond with more offense that's actually legitimate now.

55:17

Right. Yeah. Now she's just angry. Yeah. Right. So you're being led like into a, like a conversation that just feels like it make, like, it's just, how do we even get here?

55:29

Right. To where like, I don't even, I don't know how we got here anymore. And part of it is because you're just, you're approaching that scenario, the way you'd approach a conversation with a guy and there's no ability to do that.

55:41

Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's, those are the two extremes, right?

55:47

Yeah. The one extreme is to say, I'm sorry, you know, whenever you're mad. And there's a lot of guys who do that, you know, if she's upset and just say, you're sorry, you know, and then on the other end is just to try to explain your way out of it no matter what.

55:57

Right. And there's a lot of times where it's just like, okay, right. Um, we need, we need a new plan.

56:04

Okay. What was that plan? Well, I think that there's a lot of things that you can do, depending on the kind of relationship you have.

56:12

And so just some suggestions or tips, like if you get there, you know, where you just no ability to talk, um, you know,

56:19

I try to interject humor, you know, into the equation sometimes just to lighten the load.

56:26

I mean, sometimes that, that can work, but you run a risk there. So I'm not trying to say that's a foolproof print, but I try to,

56:33

I try to interject some humor. I have a redneck voice. I go to sometimes, you know, uh, and I'll refer to my wife as like Linda in those moments, you know, that is a,

56:47

I'm just going to go ahead and tell you, that is not the advice that I expected you to give now,

56:54

Linda, you listen to me. This is getting out of control, you know?

57:02

Uh, no, I mean, like, I think, you know, there, I think if you can make it lighter, you know, and just kind of laugh,

57:09

I mean, sometimes people are so wound up so tight that, that, that may be risky, but, you know, uh, you gotta know your audience, you gotta know your, you gotta know your audience, you know, but if you can find a way to lighten it up a little bit, you know, um,

57:24

I, I think, you know, just, uh, like shifting from the mansplaining in the moment, you know, when the mansplaining is not working,

57:31

I was shifting to, Hey, you know, honey, love you, care about you, you know, you can go the sensitive route, you know, honey,

57:37

I care about you, love you. I have no idea what's going on. I don't know what we're doing right now, but I love you.

57:45

Let's, can we pray about this? Let's pray about this, you know, and just let's try again a little bit, you know, and give her a hug and, you know, um, you know, um, so,

57:57

I mean, I, I think that, that, that can be a, an approach where you just say, Hey, we got to take a break. This is, this is going nowhere.

58:03

Good. I have no idea what's going on anymore. And let's just pray about it and come back to it, you know, and there has to be some ability to do that, to where both people know, like, and part of what you do is you, you, you have to budget for this kind of thing, meaning like in the course of your marriage, um, like if you have regular times where you talk about how the relationship is going in those times, you're like,

58:26

Hey, uh, we got to have a plan for how to deal with things when things start to snowball. Right. And so, and one of the rules that we need to have is that we both can, um, just take a step back and say,

58:38

Hey, I don't know what's going on right now. Just, we need to disengage, you know? Yeah. Now, now some people like what they'll do is they'll disengage in a way that's like, um, you know, like, let me leave the house, you know, cause

58:54

I'm mad. I'm going to leave the house and I'm going to be gone for an indefinite period of time. That's a destructive way to disengage.

59:00

Or I, Hey, I'm going to go bury my head in the TV, you know, for hours and not think about this or talk, you know, cause

59:06

I don't want to talk about this and I'm done talking to you and everything else. And like, that's a destructive way to do it. But if there's a,

59:11

Hey, let's just pause and like disentangle and let's go pray and come back and try to start over.

59:18

Like you have to have some way to get to where as a couple that's okay. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.

59:24

Uh, so, you know, you can try your redneck voice, see how you can. Emphasis on, yeah.

59:33

On, on try there. Hey, that can work, you know, more than what you think. Um, uh, or if, if everyone could just laugh at, you know, and part of the problem is that like in these kinds of fights, everyone takes themselves so seriously.

59:47

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like you take yourself so seriously to the point where if you could just like, um, um, like then it becomes about like, um, like the whole thing becomes about like me defending myself, you defending yourself.

01:00:01

And like, it's just taken way too seriously. If, if both people could realize, Hey, I, I'm, I don't know how to communicate with you and you don't know how to communicate with me.

01:00:10

Both of us are bad, right? It's not just like I'm bad or you're bad. It's like, we're both bad at communicating with each other in different ways in the ways that we need to be communicated.

01:00:19

And if both people can kind of own that, if there's like a humility to say that I'm bad at this, you're bad at this, we're both bad at this less like, um, and we can just laugh at how bad we are together.

01:00:30

Right. Not like I'm laughing at you at how bad you are, but we're both laughing at each other at how like this is just like this, the situation basically.

01:00:39

Yeah. It's just like, ah, what in the world is going on? And I mean, there's been plenty of times where my wife and I were just like, we just were not able to talk, but then it's just like, we laugh about like, how is this so hard?

01:00:50

You know, I have no idea what's going on anymore. There's definitely been times in my marriage as well where, and not even necessarily arguments, but just, you know, things that you're talking about, whether it's like planning, upcoming events that are going on or whatever, where you and your spouse are talking about one thing.

01:01:11

And then later on down the line, you know, maybe that thing doesn't get done or it doesn't get done the way that someone was expecting it to.

01:01:20

And then you're like, Hey, what, what happened there? And the other spouse is like, well, I did this.

01:01:25

This is what we talked about. So I did that. And it's like, that's not what we were talking about at all. You know?

01:01:31

And I know I've had, I've had experiences like that that aren't even like, you know, they're not even necessarily confrontational.

01:01:39

They're just like, like, Hey, what, what happened here? I don't understand.

01:01:44

And then you realize that all misunderstandings that, right. And so, so that is just a normal,

01:01:51

I mean, first of all, like, just set aside the whole like man and woman thing. I mean, communicating in general is pretty hard sometimes, especially depending on the subject, the subject matter.

01:02:05

But then when you add in the fact that men and women really do think differently in a lot of ways that just complicates things even more.

01:02:16

Right. And then, and then you add in the fact, like when you're talking about marriage, I mean, your, your whole life is like on display for the other person and everything you do affects the other person.

01:02:29

And so there's a, there's an additional, you know, added complication there when it comes to communication.

01:02:36

So, so it is really hard to do. And I think people probably need to sit down and realize that it is, it is just that hard sometimes.

01:02:48

Right. And that's not like, if people could realize it's that hard and quit personalizing it.

01:02:55

Right. So most people think, okay, it's hard because you're a bad communicator. The other person, right.

01:03:01

You could just learn to communicate. Well, no, we just have different ways of communicating and different priorities and different, you know, just ways we think.

01:03:09

Right. And not, you know, one way of thinking is better in certain realms than others.

01:03:17

And the other way of thinking is better in other realms. Right. Right. And so, but like, it's, it's not about like, this is just absolutely across the board better and the other ones, it's just, they're different.

01:03:28

And so if you could both just instead of it's like all the communication problems are your fault, you know, or are they're all my fault?

01:03:35

No, I mean, they're both of our fault. Right. Right. We're both totally unequipped for this. And if both people could realize that and just take it more like a challenge, like this is like a, this is a funny dynamic that this is so hard.

01:03:50

Right. Yeah. And that's part of what I'm talking about, trying to introduce some kind of humor into it. If you both have that kind of attitude, like this is just funny.

01:03:57

Like you can, you can make it funny, you know, instead of just making it like dead serious. Like I want to get a divorce because I hate this so much kind of thing, just lighten up a little bit, laugh about it a little bit, and then keep on trying, you know?

01:04:09

And it's like, if you're trying, isn't working, you laugh about it and say, Oh, let's try again a little bit, you know? Cause like when, so part of it is that I think now there are situations where, you know, your partner won't let you disengage and like, that's that comes with different kinds of things.

01:04:27

But I mean, I think there's, one of the things that you can do is, you know, as a husband, I think is think to yourself, all right, what,

01:04:39

I'm not getting anywhere trying to like in this, like right now, whatever the emotions are flying,

01:04:45

I'm not getting anywhere reasoning. And when you find yourself not getting anywhere, trying to reason or trying to explain, you know, often it's better to start asking questions, you know?

01:04:57

And one of the things you want to do in general is like turn off the explain impulse.

01:05:02

A lot, a lot of times when people are like fighting, they have like a, you have like two people that like approach conversation where the first person wants to give their 10 minute speech and be listened to from start to finish.

01:05:14

And then the other person then, you know, gets to respond with their own 10 minute speech, start to finish.

01:05:19

But then the problem is that the formal debate. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So that's, but then what's happening though, is like that speech might be filled with inaccuracies.

01:05:29

And so you might only get a sentence or two out before there's already disagreements. And then it just turns into a mess.

01:05:34

But what you want to do is like the Bible says that it's a, if you give an answer before you hear it's following and shame, let everyone be quick to listen.

01:05:41

So to speak, slow to wrath, like be a better listener than you are, you know, like be more focused on trying to listen than you are focused on trying to explain yourself and try, you know, if, if, and the more that like you're explaining becomes unfruitful, like you should already have habits developed to being a good listener anyways, but that's where you ask more questions.

01:06:01

You ask better questions, you ask probing questions, you, you know, you, you ask the kind of questions that might make a person think.

01:06:09

So get better at question asking at that point. Yeah. Let's basically like assume you don't know.

01:06:15

Yeah. I assume the other persons. Yeah. I want to be listened to. It doesn't seem like I'm being listened to at all.

01:06:22

Let me ask more questions, you know, because I, I, I, you know what

01:06:28

I need, I needed to want to listen when I want to speak, you know, so part of it's that, like learning to ask questions in those moments, but then part of that has a, you have to have a different perspective of what's happening.

01:06:38

And part of it's like you changing your perspective from trying to be understood to change it to like, like what is this about?

01:06:44

Because this isn't about whatever is on the surface here often, if that makes sense.

01:06:50

Okay. So meaning like what, what is the, like a question you can ask in those moments, it's like, what is right now my wife want that she's not getting.

01:07:02

And, you know, often it's just like, you know, she wants to feel like you're her friend, you know, she wants to feel like you care about her.

01:07:12

And you might be thinking, I have no idea why she would assume I don't.

01:07:19

Because what I said was innocuous. It had nothing to do with any of that. She, you know, she's blowing it out of proportion and it's not, doesn't have anything to do.

01:07:29

Like, she's just misunderstanding what I was doing. Right. But then it's just like, well, if you shift away from trying to defend yourself to think, well, what does she want to just, what is the desire underneath the conflict?

01:07:42

Right. And you might try to give her that desire and, and realize that that puts her in a better position to reevaluate what just happened.

01:07:50

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, Hey, you know, if it's just about like, she doesn't think

01:07:56

I care about her. Tell her you care about her. Hey, I care about you. I'm sorry that this conversation is going this way.

01:08:04

I don't even know how it's gone this way. You know, I'm not asking him for, that doesn't mean ask forgiveness for it. Just like,

01:08:10

I, I don't know what's going on here. You know, I, I care about you and yeah, you know,

01:08:15

I adore you. Let's come here and give me a hug. You know?

01:08:21

Yeah. Yeah. Like, but that's like, you, you, you try to figure out what's underneath it.

01:08:27

But then there's often also like men and women are different. And this is something that's like really helped me to think through things like like this men are often a lot more interested in like sins of commission and women are often much more interested in sins of omission.

01:08:47

So do you know what I mean by that? Yeah. Yeah. So men are more interested basically in the sins that like the things that like for the woman, the wife that they actually do.

01:09:03

Right. Right. But then, but then women are more focused on the ones that men don't do.

01:09:09

Right. So like I, you know, in, in often a lot of comfort there, I, when I, when I say the ones they don't do,

01:09:14

I mean the actions that they don't take, not the sins that they don't commit, the actions that they don't take.

01:09:21

Right. So it's like, Hey, you know, I, you know, you haven't looked at me today. You haven't talked to me today.

01:09:27

You haven't. Right. Like I feel so distant, like a wife may come to her husband and say, I feel so distant from you.

01:09:32

And the husband looks at her and she's like, what? Well, I don't know what you're talking about. You know? Oh yeah.

01:09:40

But, but what, what just happened there is there's there's probably a lot of sins of omission. You like thoughtlessness.

01:09:46

Right. That you don't want to, it's like, what do you mean? You feel like I'm not your friend. I'm not there for you.

01:09:52

I, I literally spent, you know, at that point you go into the mansplaining mode. Right. So it's like I went to work eight hours a day.

01:09:59

I came home today. Um, and you know, the, the car is literally falling apart.

01:10:06

So I had to fix it and do all that. Right. And so then you go on to explain why everything that you did that day was reasonable.

01:10:12

But then it's just like, well, there may be like, maybe you could have been nicer to her. Maybe you could have spent 10 minutes talking to her before you went to go fix the, put out the fires or whatever.

01:10:22

Right. And maybe, so a lot of times what's happening is women are much more interested in these sins of omission.

01:10:28

And part of that's because they're relational and, and much more relational than men are in general.

01:10:33

And, you know, men are just like, Hey, you know, if I tell you to do something, just do it. Right. Respond to what

01:10:38

I say. If I, you know, so men, men, men want women to respond to them in general.

01:10:44

Uh, women want men to anticipate what they want. Right. Yeah. And part of that's related to men are supposed to lead and take initiative.

01:10:53

Right. So women want from men initiative. Right. I don't want to tell you,

01:10:58

I don't have to tell you to do things. Whereas men, it's like, Hey, if I just tell you to do something, if you just respond to what

01:11:04

I tell you to do, everything will be great. Right. I don't need you to anticipate anything. Right. Yeah.

01:11:10

Just respond to my request or respond to my desires. When I mentioned them, you don't have to, you know, anticipate anything whatsoever.

01:11:17

Right. And part of that's just the way we're made and we're made in different ways. And men are interested in like, if I told you to do that and you didn't do it, then we have a problem.

01:11:25

Right. Whereas ladies like, I don't want to have to tell you, you should just know. And part of that, I mean, you know, obviously like it's not as if every time like, um, a man tells a woman to do something that is always reasonable, right.

01:11:42

What he's saying, like he could give very unreasonable directions. And in the same way, it's not as if every time a man fails to anticipate something a woman wants, she can be completely reasonable in that moment.

01:11:54

But it is good to take a step back and say, are there sins of omission here that I'm not factoring in?

01:12:00

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Where you can actually legitimately ask forgiveness for something that's real.

01:12:06

Right. So anyways, the broader point is like when you're, when you're, um, when you're having a conversation that is, it feels like there's a lot of emotion in it and not a lot of reason that I don't know that mansplaining is the best, um, tactic in that moment at the very least.

01:12:24

Um, yeah. But then you do have to have like some mechanism within a relationship to be able to like say, okay, right now we're not getting anywhere.

01:12:36

We got to come back to this later and there has to be some kind of expectation that both people care enough about the relationship to actually want to come back later and give it another try.

01:12:45

And then typically when you give it another try, you know, if you're the guy you started out with questions, don't start it out with your speech.

01:12:52

Does that make sense? Yeah. So some responses are, you know, um, ask questions.

01:12:57

Don't assume that you know exactly what your spouse's, uh, um, position is, what their understanding of the situation is.

01:13:07

Um, uh, you know, try to also, you know, evaluate yourself, ask, ask yourself if there's any, uh, anything that you did that was sin that you, you legitimately do need to ask forgiveness for from God, but then also from your spouse.

01:13:28

Right. Right. Um, and then use the redneck voice.

01:13:34

Yeah. But yeah. Yeah.

01:13:40

Hey, you know, it could do wonders. Uh, but, um, yeah, I mean, I, I guess I haven't, I haven't tried it, so I can't say that for sure that it does.

01:13:48

Becky or Linda are good, uh, good, uh, names. Oh, I apologize.

01:14:01

Oh no. Um, no. Yeah, no. So, but then beyond that I do think, um, you know, there are other things too that you could say about that kind of topic.

01:14:12

I mean, as a man, I don't think, um, you, you know, if you, if you, if you're interacting with a woman, whether on the internet or, you know, wife or whatever, who is just insistent upon taking offense at everything you say, right.

01:14:29

Like there has to be some, um, um, at some point, you know, and it may not be, um, necessarily in the moment where you get this theology out, but there has to be some kind of, um, theology of like, it's a glory of a man to overlook an offense.

01:14:47

And like, is your anger righteous? And, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to accept responsibility every time you are offended.

01:14:56

Right. Like, you know, you, you, a good sense makes one slow to anger and it's the glory of a man to overlook an offense.

01:15:02

And sometimes we can be offended because we misunderstand things, you know, and there's, I've been in counseling situations where, you know,

01:15:08

I'm talking to the lady and the lady is just intent upon turning everything that, you know, the husband says, or, you know,

01:15:17

I say as a counselor, they're going to turn it into an object of offense. There has to be some ability to speak into those kinds of situations and essentially say,

01:15:24

Hey, you're responsible for your feelings. And you can't, like we can't communicate this way.

01:15:30

Right. Right. Where you just, you misunderstand everything that's happening and you take offense to it instantaneously and immediately.

01:15:36

And then, you know, there's this demand that everyone just validate your misunderstanding of the scenario and your misunderstanding of like, we're not going to go there.

01:15:46

Right. So like, um, like I do think, you know, as a guy, you're going to have to, you know, have some ability to talk about that.

01:15:54

And I mean, there are, I mean, obviously there's times of the month where a lady can be overly sensitive, right.

01:16:00

To just overly sensitive to crying for no reason. And, you know, as a couple, you have to budget for that.

01:16:06

And I mean, I know that it's like the worst kind of sin possible to in the minds of many people to where like, you're not, you're not even allowed to talk about it.

01:16:14

Right. Yeah. Like, you're not allowed to say, Hey, you know, is this that time, you know, and that's a, like a social, like the worst thing everyone chuckles at that as if, as if that's the worst thing that can possibly happen.

01:16:25

But, you know, in reality, that's something that needs to happen. You need to have the maturity as a couple to say,

01:16:30

Hey, where are we at right now? Because it seems like everything I say you're crying about, and I don't know what to do with that.

01:16:36

Right. Right. And so, and, and, you know, part of just knowing what, where you're at is helps everyone to put into context what's happening, you know, to, and there is some, you know, men do have to help women, you know, at times to, to not just totally give in to whatever emotions that they're feeling.

01:16:58

And you're living in a society right now that basically says that it's harmful to suppress any of your emotions. So that's a unique challenge that we're living in, in the kind of society that we're living in right now too.

01:17:08

So there's, there's a lot of things that you have to do, but you know, typically in the moment, if you're just, if, if, you know, logic, reason and everything, you're not prevailing, you don't keep doubling down, tripling down, quadrupling down with some expectation that it's going to go any different, if that makes sense.

01:17:27

Right. Yeah. There's other ways to not compromise on the truth, right. While still acknowledging, you know, that there is another person involved in the equation who just communicates naturally in a different way.

01:17:42

Right. Is essentially what you're saying. Right. So, so when you try to, when you find yourself in a situation where it seems like there's just no progress being made, you do need to have some sort of some sort of allowance in your mind for like a, okay,

01:18:00

I, I need to try a different approach, whether that's like, Hey, let, let's ask the questions, you know, let's take a step back.

01:18:08

Yeah. Let's take a step back. Yeah. Let's, let's take a break. Let's, let's pray about that. You know, let's go pray about this.

01:18:16

What, whatever it is, you know, that does need to be, you can't just keep brute forcing it.

01:18:22

Yeah, you can't. And I mean, I think like, I think depending on the scenario you're in,

01:18:28

I mean, I don't think what you want to do is you don't want to say that whatever is happening is fine.

01:18:34

You get what I'm saying? Yeah. So when I've counseled, like when I've been in counseling situations and you know, like the lady is just offended at every move, right?

01:18:43

What she's doing is wrong, right? What she's doing is wrong. Like meaning like she's just, she's just emoting and she's been trained for a long period of time to emote instead of be able to discuss.

01:18:58

Right. Yeah. And that's wrong. And so you don't have to like say, well, we're just different.

01:19:04

You know, like some of it, you're different. Some of it can be just distortions of that. Right. So you have the guy who just wants to like, he thinks like the way to handle this is to give 30 minute speeches.

01:19:17

Right. Where he has a captive audience. And if she can listen to the 30 minute speech, then everything would make sense.

01:19:24

That's, that's not right either. You know, because like you should, when words are many transgressions unavoidable, we should be quick to listen.

01:19:31

So it speaks a lot of wrath, you know, so, but then there are unhelpful ways to interact both ways.

01:19:38

Right. And they can be different to different intensity, depending on different couple.

01:19:44

You don't have to say it's all okay. But at the same time, like it may be profoundly unbiblical and unhelpful what's happening, but it does help to think to take a step back and say, okay, what is the good?

01:20:00

Like, there's probably a good desire in here that's escaping me. Right. And like, let me, you know, like,

01:20:08

I can't make heads or tails out of anything that's happening right now, but there's something, let me assume that there's some substance to what's happening.

01:20:19

Right. So if it's like a lot of emotion, you say, let me assume that there's some kind of substance to all this. And often what's funny is like, it's not even about what just happened.

01:20:27

It's about other things. Right. Right. So it's like, it has nothing like often like in, in those kinds of scenarios, it really has nothing to do with what like the trigger was.

01:20:36

The trigger just was totally unrelated to anything that actually happened. Right. Like meaning it was about something completely different.

01:20:44

And if all you're doing is in that moment, trying to explain how that response was out of proportion to what just happened, you're missing the point that it was probably about something else.

01:20:53

Okay. And then that thing that the other thing that it's about probably is significant. Does that make sense?

01:20:59

Yeah. Yeah. So what like this response is completely out of proportion to what just happened and out of control, but the real thing that this is about probably is significant and important.

01:21:14

And it's your job is to get to that, you know, and often it's just totally different than what you realize, you know?

01:21:22

And so like, there's like a legitimate concern underneath there that if you can like get your mind out of defend yourself mode and get it on,

01:21:29

I didn't figure out what that thing is. Cause it's probably not what I think it is. Then it helps a lot.

01:21:35

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Well, I think,

01:21:40

I think that's a good place to end the episode on, especially to flesh out some of that when it comes to marriage, because I do think marriage is a people.

01:21:50

We just live in a day and age where I think people assume for some reason that marriage is like the happily ever after thing.

01:22:02

And, and so we, a lot of people go into marriage thinking that, and then they're just blindsided by how difficult marriage can be.

01:22:10

I mean, I think the last time I checked the statistic, I think it was like 50 % of marriages in America end in divorce for one reason or another.

01:22:21

I have to assume that percentage is higher now for marriages that end in divorce.

01:22:27

I have to assume it's probably higher, maybe not, but I confident enough to,

01:22:33

I'm almost confident enough to bet money on it. And so that has to communicate something about the difficulty when it, that comes with marriage.

01:22:45

And so knowing how to communicate effectively, recognizing the fact that men and women communicate differently and that there are approaches to handle that, they just don't always look like maybe what you would want them to be based off of how you communicate.

01:23:04

So I think that's helpful for people and, and hopefully people are who are listening take note of that and try to apply that.

01:23:15

And they're, well, try to wreck it, you know, recognize that, maybe observe, you know, here's how

01:23:20

I communicate, here's how my spouse communicates and, and see that that's true and then ask yourself, well, what do

01:23:27

I, you know, what do I do now? And that's where you start inserting the, well, let me ask questions, you know, let me, let me humble myself enough to assume that I don't know my spouse's position and understanding of everything right now.

01:23:42

Let me ask myself, is there actual sin in my life that I do need to ask forgiveness for? Let me be humble enough to recognize that I am sinful and I do have the ability to be wrong, right?

01:23:53

Even, even though I don't want to be, no one wants to be wrong. We're all wrong plenty of times in our life.

01:23:59

And, and then just recognizing, yeah, there, there are times where, where you have to say, okay, we just got to step back for a little while.

01:24:06

Let's come back to this later today. You know, let's each pray about it. Think back over everything that's been said and, and sort of, you know, let the, if, if, if there's a lot, you know, high emotion, a lot of temper involved, like let's let that cool off.

01:24:23

Let's go, repent of those things and come back and, and talk about these things again.

01:24:28

And so, so I, I do want to encourage people that, you know, sometimes marriage can, it can just feel like, man, my marriage is so tough because we're always fighting, whatever.

01:24:41

And, and I do think a large part of that is due to breakdowns in communication.

01:24:48

And, you know, and not necessarily because either person is a bad communicator in and of themselves.

01:24:55

They're just perhaps a bad communicator in the way that their spouse communicates.

01:25:02

Right. So I do want to encourage people with that. But with all that said we want to thank you guys for supporting us and continuing to listen week in and week out.

01:25:13

And we look forward to having you guys on the next one. This has been another episode of Bible bashed.

01:25:18

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01:25:30

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01:25:39

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01:25:50

Now go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.