Sabbath, to honor or not to honor? | Rapp Report Weekly 0028 | Striving for Eternity

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Okay, it is time for us to respond to another podcast.

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That's right, someone has to do it and it might as well be us. Yes, we're going to respond to, well, it's those theology gals over there.

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You know, they talked about a thing called the Sabbath and we're gonna deal with that today on The Wrap Report.

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Welcome to The Wrap Report with Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications.

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This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

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Well, welcome to The Wrap Report and I am Andrew Rappaport with Striving for Eternity.

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Folks, if you listened to the last weekly podcast, it was the one on depression.

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That was a tough one to do, but I got some feedback on that that really was encouraging.

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Today it dropped and I got someone that sent me a message, someone who I've been talking with throughout the year.

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I met him about a year ago at a conference and he has been struggling with some different things and he happened to listen.

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I get a message from, hey, just got done listening to your podcast on depression with Amy Mottravadi.

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I probably still got that wrong. Mottravadi. It really helped me on many different levels.

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Thanks, Andrew. I responded and told him, well, that's good to hear. To be honest, I was a little concerned sharing about my own struggles with depression because I think sometimes people will think less of me.

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He responded and said, some will, but by opening up, you are helping a lot of people.

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I, for instance, am diagnosed bipolar and can relate to everything you guys were talking about.

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By the way, he's gonna be at a conference that I'm gonna be at. So the reality is that that was actually the third message

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I got within a few hours of that dropping. I guess there's more people struggling with depression than I thought of or knew of.

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We're probably gonna deal with a little bit more in the future. Another topic may have someone come on and deal with the issue of not just depression but actually suicide.

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That's something that we're gonna work on for the future. That was encouraging. I needed that good news.

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Why? Because, well, there's been a lot. It's been a strange week. I don't know if you guys knew but this week we dropped two podcasts.

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That special podcast on the statement on social justice. You know, there was a lot of encouraging things at first and now not so much.

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Today, I was told that even though my family never owned slaves and we're not in this country but we're from Russia and Romania and didn't came over here and then my parents were the first generation here in America, that I still have white privilege for slavery because I live in America.

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That's strange. I guess then many of the blacks have a greater privilege. You know, this is a problem that some people don't understand.

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We did a podcast with Paul Kaiser and one of the things he said on the issue of social justice and one of the things he said was the fact that, you know, he's not glad that his ancestors were slaves and had to go through what they went through but because they did, he gets the benefits of living in America and not growing up in somewhere else like maybe

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Africa but he said he is reaping the benefits. You know, there's many people who come and immigrate to this country so that their children can get benefits.

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Now, I don't support slavery and the kidnapping of people and bringing people over the way that it was done.

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That was wrong. That aside, however, what we end up having to deal with is the fact that we cannot ignore the fact that everybody has privilege because of America, because they live here and it doesn't have to do with white or black.

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It has to do with the fact that this country was founded on Christian values and now they want to attack those values and basically say all

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Christians are the problem. That's what you're seeing. It's really an attack on God but I'm gonna tell you this.

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I'm gonna give you a little clue on what's coming up on the daily podcast. If you listen to the rap report daily, that two -minute podcast every day, we are gonna go through the statement on social justice for the next couple of weeks and go through every article so that even if you haven't read it, you're gonna be able to hear it.

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I give a slight commentary where I can because, well, it's only two minutes long so make sure that you subscribe to the rap report and that you are listening to that.

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We're gonna go all of that. With all of that said, I want to get into the issue of the

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Sabbath and the comments made from the Theology Gals. Now I will link their podcast here but I want to give my views.

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I'm gonna have a little bit of a different view in some areas but there's some agreement. But you know, I think that Ashley said something very good in the beginning that's a good note for all of us so let's play that.

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Ashley? Recently I was trying to understand a theological system and that I disagree with and one of my friends said make sure you go to the source of the people that actually hold that view and understand what they say they believe rather than reading articles from Reformed people on what they believe.

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Even though those are helpful too, you want to actually go like, like let's say it's like dispensational or just just some other system.

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Like what do dispensational say they believe? You know, what do you know, whatever it is say they believe and then and then try to figure it out from there.

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That's very good advice Ashley because that's what I always encourage people to do. The reality is, is if you're gonna take an argument, you better be able to argue someone else's argument as well as they can.

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Then you know their argument. Then if you disagree, hey great you have a good grounds for disagreeing because you understand the argument rightly.

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And so I wanted to deal with some of the things this Sabbath. Now Ashley, let me ask a question of you. Why honor the

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Sabbath? Why would we even be discussing it? Why do we honor the Sabbath? That was Colleen.

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Well should we read what the Catechism says? What do you think? I think that's a great idea because I I don't think we can sum up as well as the

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Catechism does. Now where did she go? She went to the Catechism. I'm just saying I think we're gonna see a

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Presbyterian Baptist thing here soon. But but why what is the requirements then for the

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Sabbath? I'd like to know from the ladies here what they think. Perhaps question 58 from the

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Catechism. What is required in the fourth commandment? The fourth commandment requireth,

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I love the old English, require the keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his word expressly one whole day and seventh to be a holy

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Sabbath to himself. And that's actually not that's not like a lengthy list of you know things that you have to do.

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That's that's actually kind of broad. That is broad and I'm actually going to agree with that statement.

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Let's take a look at what Scripture says. I was actually teaching this. I do a Friday night Bible study here in my house and we are going through the book of Genesis.

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I happen just happened to be in Genesis chapter 2 this week and this is what we were dealing with Genesis 2 and it says thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all the host of them and on the seventh day

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God finished his work that he had done and rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

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So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because on it God rested from all the work he has done in creation.

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Now this is where we first see the Sabbath. We see the Sabbath first introduced here and as it is introduced we see that God has rested.

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Now there's no command here for us to obey anything. It's just that this is a

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Sabbath. However when the law was given in Exodus chapter 20 there is a command the fourth command that's given and it's kind of interesting because when you look at the commands they're pretty short for the most part except for like the

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Sabbath is one of the longer ones. But if you look at Exodus 20 verse 10 actually sorry verse 9

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I should start verse 8 where it starts that'd be good so Exodus 28 remember the

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Sabbath day to keep it holy six days you are to labor and do all your work but on the seventh day is a

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Sabbath and the Lord your God to the Lord your God on it you shall not do any work you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your livestock or your sojourner who are within your gates for in six days the

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Lord made heaven and earth the sea and all that is in them and rested on the seventh therefore the

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Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy what we see here from Genesis is that this was a pattern that we see in Exodus 20 was to be followed that because God worked six days he rested on the seventh we are to work six days rest on the seventh notice this is tied to creation this is not tied to the law well maybe so in creation

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I'm gonna argue that God took six days because if you think about it what took him so long you ever think about that God could have created everything in a split second

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I mean earth stars Sun moon trees animals man female male and female the birds the fish everything he could just boom all it could have been just in existence he purposely did it in six days and rested on the seventh because he wanted a pattern for us therefore

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I'm gonna argue and I'm gonna agree with both Colleen and Ashley that there is a creation

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Sabbath there is a Sabbath that we see from the creation excuse me so what we end up seeing is that God established a

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Sabbath at the beginning of creation now the second question is does that carry over to us today well before we can get there let's look at the fact that the

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Sabbath did change with the giving of the law when Moses gave the law there was now laws given to the nation of Israel where you end up seeing him give very specific laws of what they could and could not do on the

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Sabbath and you know Colleen is gonna go back to those confessional documents

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I mean not the Bible like a Baptist would I mean we you know we don't have those confession we don't Westminster confetti no no we're gonna go the

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Bible no but if you look at the confessional statements they expound more well the the confession actually expounds on it a little bit more because it says that it's that is to be kept holy and to the

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Lord when men after due preparing of their hearts and ordering of their common affairs beforehand do not only observe a holy rest all that day from their own works

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I kind of I know some of this in another version and I've got the old English here so I'm not quitting exactly but um so a holy rest all the day from their own works words and thoughts about worldly employments and recreations but also are taken up the whole time in public and private exercises of his worship and the duties of necessity and mercy okay now much of that I I'm gonna agree with I don't think there's an issue there we do see that that was specifically true for the nation of Israel however where I'm gonna differ is when we look at some of these laws that were for Israel and whether they apply to a church now

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I'm gonna make it a little bit of a different distinction I'm gonna distinguish the laws between universal laws those are gonna be laws that are part of from creation laws that are thou shalt not murder why because we get that morality from the nature of God God's not a murderer therefore we shouldn't murder

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I shouldn't lie why because God's not a liar God's nature hasn't changed therefore those laws are not going to change so when we look at those we're gonna see that these are laws that are not only in the

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Old Testament they're repeated in the New Testament except for one there's only one of the Ten Commandments not repeated in the

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New Testament it is the Sabbath now I will go and I'm gonna say if I look at something like Romans chapter 1 sorry

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Romans chapter 7 Paul is going to be speaking there about the the law and he's gonna say that the law serves a purpose and he's using he uses in chapter 7 the example of marriage and he ends up saying that a married woman she's bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives but when he dies she's released from the law and then you know if she didn't if she went off and had you know ends up going with another man while the husband's alive while the law is still in effect that would be adultery and so that's wouldn't be that that wouldn't be well it would be right so he's making an argument of the law right so that here's the issue of the law right is while the law is in effect we're bound by the law but once we've died to the law as he says in verse 4 likewise my brothers you've also died to the law through the body of Christ so that we're not we're not beholden to it anymore because now we serve a law of Christ and so we are

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I would say we the church are not Israel we're not bound by the laws of Israel are we still bound by the

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Sabbath well yes because the Sabbath is a creation order but it was

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I believe expanded when it came to Israel the nation of Israel God expanded that law gave more details to it for the nation of Israel and they did that to keep

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Israel separate from the other nations just like the wearing of clothes and things they eat and you end up seeing this is

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I think also dealt with in a way in Galatians chapter 3 Galatians 3 we get this example well we're gonna actually in Galatians get an example of of to Sarah and Hagar but you know it says in Galatians 3 17 the law which came 430 years afterward does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God so as to make the promise void in other words you know what

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God did in the creation isn't made void when the law is ratified so I think that even though we have a completion of the law with Christ's death we're not obligated to all the things of the law and you're gonna see that law being made an example between Hagar and Sarah but you end up seeing that the law is in effect for the nation of Israel I don't think it's effect for us now

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I'm gonna say that I think the Sabbath is something that was a law for Israel that was also for the everybody so everyone had the law

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Sabbath for Israel well it got a little bit more specific why because they were to be separated from the other nations and that's one of the many rules that they had to keep them separate and the

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Sabbath did that and so then you end up having this exchange ladies we are still called to obedience of the moral law and that's one reason why we believe that we believe the

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Sabbath that is a moral law and that it's from creation and that's why we we still honor it and like I said

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I'm gonna link our law episode in in the episode notes but in the in the shorter catechism question 41 it says where wherein is the moral law summarily comprehended the moral law is summarily comprehended in the

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Ten Commandments so which Jesus repeated in the in the New Testament and we see new reason we see no reason why that has ended in Scripture there was no and we no longer you know

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Jesus never you know said and we no longer do this so that's why we still we still follow the

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Ten Commandments not just the nine commandments the Ten Commandments yeah yeah well sort of sort of Ashley no here's the thing you know

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I agree and disagree with that because you know the reality is this we have the commandments that are repeated in the

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New Testament and Sabbath is the Sabbath command is not repeated in the New Testament but it is from creation so there is an element of the

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Sabbath that we should honor do we have to honor all the Sabbath from the nation of Israel well see if you're not gonna honor that Sabbath or if you are gonna honor that Sabbath I would say you have to honor the keeping kosher too because it's a thing of the the law is either gonna be in effect or not as I think but now there you have a whole podcast on on the

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Presbyterian view of law obviously as you can see they they disagree with me

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I disagree and did you get those earlier things I forgot to mention Ashley was doing those things against us dispensationalists just saying figure

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I got to get him back right no but here's the thing there is I think an argument that could be made that we have a

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Sabbath that we obey that goes back to creation but not the Sabbath that was given to Israel I hope you see that distinction there's a universal

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Sabbath everyone should be keeping everyone would be held to because God rested that's not tied to his nature but it is tied to his creation and therefore because it's tied to his creation

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I think it would be universal however I think that that law was expanded and given more detail specifically for the nation of Israel just like the laws for for how to dress how to eat how to keep separate from the world around them the nation's so that they would be a separate people and in doing so those

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Sabbath laws just like the food laws and other things I think we no longer need to honor that way we honor that creation

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Sabbath but then they got into Colossians 2 16 and they said this so one of the one of things

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Ashley and I have heard a lot as people will use Colossians 2 16 that that says therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in race back to a festival or a new moon or a

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Sabbath day doesn't that mean you know we shouldn't be judging other people they need to just do what what's what's good for them well

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I you know I I just think that verse is really taken out of context it's it's not really talking about the

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Lord's Day or fourth commandment it's talking about festival days yeah how it says in questions of food and drink with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath or a

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Sabbath and it's referring to you know the the festival days and the the

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I think the ceremonial aspects of the law right right and I think that's why they try to tie the

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Sabbath into that sound this was more a ceremonial and fits under the ceremonial law well

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I guess dispensational stone actually split the law up in the same way that we do but essentially that's why they don't believe that we are to honor the

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Sabbath well I'm gonna have to agree with Colleen there we don't separate it that way that is the difference is it not how we separate these laws

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I'm seeing them as universal and laws and national laws so that's how I separate I don't actually know if there's others who separate it that way it's just the easiest for me to understand

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I based those laws they're based in the nature of God and creation as laws that should never change and those laws that were given to a nation of Israel were for that nation now

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I actually I'm sorry I kind of have to disagree with you a bit I'm sorry but actually this

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Sabbath was dealing with Sabbath now a lot people don't understand some the Sabbath in Judaism so every festival is called a

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Sabbath okay when you have a festival it is a day of rest so we there's many

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Sabbath not just the seventh day I mean Yom Kippur Sabbath day Rosh Hashanah Sabbath day these are all days of a

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Sabbath so the distinction of a festival or a Sabbath I think is speaking of the day of rest now in that particular verse

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I actually think the argument is over the the festivals whether to you know do you do

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Passover do you not anymore or the Sabbath being Saturday or Sunday that was actually the debate going on was did you worship on Saturday or Sunday and that still hasn't gone away with some seven -day

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Adventist right so the reality is that I think that what you see here is that this is talking about the

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Sabbath that we're discussing that day of rest that would be that seventh day should it be a

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Saturday should it be a Sunday and how do we go through this now we are if you notice the difference how we're breaking up the laws of Presbyterians you know that Westminster Confession of Faith says that there's a threefold division right it's the moral law the ceremonial law and the civil law and most of civil law they would be saying that okay that's that's you know things for Israel and the ceremonial law or things for Israel moral law we all obey but how do you break that up there's nothing in the

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Bible it says this is moral this isn't now Ten Commandments most people are gonna say well that's moral but is that fitting with the creation

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Sabbath or the Sabbath that was expanded for Israel I'm gonna say it was probably creation but then there's this so we're not talking about festival days that they used to have we're talking about the

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Lord's Day which was established at creation and nowhere in Scripture is it ended you know you no longer need to follow the

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Sabbath and so I think the burden of proof is on the person who wants to say that it is no longer because they need to show clearly not in like a vague not a

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I'm not saying that verse is vague but it's it's not directly related to the Sabbath the

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Lord's Day they need to show clearly where someone authoritatively has said that we no longer have to follow the

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Sabbath because what we do see is Jesus saying the

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Sabbath is for man and we see him you know summarizing the moral law love the

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Lord your God we just don't see a clear you know you're still supposed to follow nine commandments but but not this one right so we don't see that in Scripture and so the burden of proof is on the person who thinks that's the case to show that and I I've just never

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I've never read or seen anything that's been at all convincing on on that it's not convincing

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Ashley well I will throw out this challenge you know Ashley Colleen if you guys wanted to come in here come on in and let's talk about it

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I'm not afraid to discuss it with you if you want to disagree with me but I'm gonna disagree with a little bit of that because I'm gonna say the burden of proof is on you to show that this is part of a moral law versus a ceremonial law versus a civil law and some of those laws go away and not the others how do you make that division the reality is all of us struggle with that and I'm gonna say that I'm gonna honor all 10 of the 10

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Commandments because I think there is a commandment of the Sabbath back to creation but not the ones that are so detailed about the working and what you can and can't do that we see in the

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Old Testament in the Leviticus and elsewhere that was given for the Nation of Israel I kind of think well maybe maybe could they be making stuff up Colleen are you making things up on your you know on your podcast try not to make stuff up on this podcast yeah well

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I don't know I mean I don't see that the threefold division I'm just saying but they do give some good advice of how to handle this yeah

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I mean if you're if you're sure you know if you're gonna land on the side of I don't think this is something we have to do make make sure you're sure about that cuz otherwise you're not following God's law and that's that's not good so talk with your pastor about it

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I guess he's a Sabbatarian oh yeah talk with your dispensational pastor what if he's right

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I mean look I think that the way that they started about fairness you know even

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Colleen had said something similar about understanding both sides but at least understand both sides that that would be what we'd encourage yeah

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Andrew you you're gonna go after Theology Gals and talk about what great points we made about understanding both sides and not even bring me on so defense so are you saying that you crashed my podcast

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I got a personal invite so so let's talk about this so you've heard where I've agreed and disagreed

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I think there were some good points you guys made although you I noticed at least three of the clips that I played that through those dispensationalists under the bus so let's talk about really let me ask you let me let me start with this just to say a few things on what you've said so far because obviously

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I've been here listening quietly which is very difficult to do but quietly just listening to what you have to say you know

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I think this is I don't think it's something you were gonna talk about our differences but it would I think it'd be impossible to debate because we're we're working from two different frameworks of understanding some of this where we split the law up into the civil ceremonial and moral law we believe that the

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Ten Commandments all of them are our moral law you know we do think that there are aspects of the

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Sabbath laws that were civil and ceremonial and so that is why we do not hold to those things but we do believe a day is set apart for the worship of God still today and I think that even some dispensationalists would would agree with that to some degree and just maybe differ on how that looks even you said that you think it goes back to creation and there's aspects of that that are true and so but I think we're coming from two different completely different frameworks of understanding it so yeah because that was the question

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I was gonna actually ask is I think that really so many people argue and debate over the issue of the

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Sabbath and really it comes down to and I was playfully trying to do this but I hope that it made the point across where we agree and disagree really come down to how we are looking at the law and dividing the law now some dispensationalists that would argue there's some okay they word it this way there are some dispensationalists that are hyper dispensationalists that would reject all of the

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Old Testament that's not normal and when people try to say well that's what dispensationalism is you don't argue any position from its extreme okay there's even further extremes because there's some that only look at the letters to Paul okay but that's an extreme position that's not the norm but I think really what

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I was trying to playfully point out is a Presbyterian or Reformed view is going to have a threefold division right you're gonna have ceremonial right civil and moral and I'm gonna argue and I may be unique in this way

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I'm gonna argue there's universal laws there's laws to Israel there's laws for the church new covenant will argue for a law an

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Old Testament law and a law of Christ I think they call well and the other thing is too is that we're we're also going to differ on who we think that Israel in the church are where you would see a distinction and we would not and so there's a lot of different things that play here not just what we believe about the

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Sabbath but what we believe about the church in Israel and what we believe about the law okay so let's get into that for folks who don't understand that as a

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Presbyterian you're gonna see that the church and Israel are two different administrations really of the same body right so the the some

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I don't know if you're you would argue this but some Presbyterians would say that the that the

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Israel in the Old Testament is the church the Old Testament Church and New Testament Church is what we're in now so they wouldn't see this a distinction and there and by the way folks there are a lot of variations in this because really the question is how much continuity and discontinuity is there between Israel and the church the extreme positions are there's complete continuity

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Israel is the church the church is Israel there's no distinction that's all the way at one end all the way at the other end

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Israel has nothing to do with the church church has nothing to do with Israel they're two absolutely distinct bodies that's the other extreme anytime you have things like that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle where you have to actually apply some thinking and I think where you know

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Colleen and I are gonna be a little bit closer in the middle there where we're gonna see some continuity some discontinuity we're gonna see some similarity some dissimilarity and I'm gonna be more on the side of the dissimilar where I'm gonna say that there are more distinctions between Israel and the church so I'm gonna see

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Israel's the Old Testament as a nation and that as a nation they had certain things laws that were applied to them that the church would not however

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I'm not gonna say they're completely distinct because not everybody who is in Israel is

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Israel we see that in Romans what does that mean it means that not everybody that was in the nation of Israel was spiritual

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Israel now there you're gonna see some of this continuity that Colleen is gonna be more on the side of where I'm gonna say that the spiritual

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Israel those that were believers in Old Testament Israel that were part of that nation are similar to New Testament believers because they're they're saved by grace through faith alone and now they look forward to what

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Christ would do and we look back to what Christ did but it's still based on the work of Christ but that distinction that we're both gonna have is going to affect the way we look at Israel now because I'm seeing more of a distinction

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I hope you're saying that I see a difference between laws given to that nation versus laws given to the church where Colleen who's not gonna see as much of that separation is going to see it these laws are divided differently does that make sense

34:44

Colleen fair way to put it no I think I think that that was that was a fair summary

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I mean we and we do we see we see continuity and discontinuity when you were talking about Israel and spiritual

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Israel we we have a emphasis on the invisible invisible church and so for instance my babies were baptized

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I know I know there's probably people listening right now that are now thinking

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I'm Catholic and when my babies are baptized we do not believe that that saves them we we do not believe that that removes their original sin like the

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Catholic Church might believe but we do believe it is the sign of the Covenant and so our children are part of the

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Covenant people being in the church but they are not but until they have saving faith in Christ they are not part of the invisible church and there are many

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Presbyterians brought baptism there are many Presbyterians who would say that if a child is baptized their enter into the

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Covenant relationship as part of that family and some would say that because of that they a child who dies and go would go to heaven now let me preface this there are

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Baptists like John MacArthur who believe that all children go to heaven so if you're gonna say that well only the that you have an issue because the baptized ones would go well some say all go

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I'm gonna disagree with both views and say we don't know and therefore I can't say

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I know this is so bad from are gonna hate me I am gonna get such hate email I was gonna do hate mail because we got some fun hate mail in this week or last week actually but I'll probably get more of it after this

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I cannot say whether my child who died in my wife's womb is in heaven why because I don't see any scripture that says anything either way and so I just don't take a position on it

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I can't argue either one I would love to think that all children go to heaven if they're all baptized children then my child still wouldn't be in heaven so I want all children

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I want to go with MacArthur's view I like that one better it just feels better but I don't know that that's true so there is that and and it is a thing of being part of the covenant relationship and people don't understand that who are not

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Presbyterian and Reformed and so that was something else that we're bringing into this aren't we

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Colleen is this idea of covenants because the covenant relationships important within Presbyterianism isn't it right well and let me just say not just Presbyterian some people make the mistake of thinking there's

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Baptist and Presbyterian but there's actually we Reformed no not

37:52

I'm not even bringing Lutherans into we're actually Reformed and Presbyterian so there's the

37:58

Dutch Reformed Church and not all of not all of the debt not all Reformed are

38:04

Presbyterians because Presbyterian has to do with our form of church government so there's there's there's people that belong to churches that hold to three forms of unity which is

38:15

Reformed confession and they they believe the same things about covenant theology about the law about our children and different things like that but they don't believe in a

38:28

Presbyterian form of church government and so I like to distinguish that we're talking about Reformed and and Presbyterian and I wanted to say too for those that this you know if this is a new idea for you

38:41

I remember the first time I heard of infant baptism and you know I just thought everyone had the Catholic view there is different views and the view that I said earlier is the historic

38:51

Reformed view but as with anything when Andrew was talking about even dispensational extremists

38:58

I actually have family that are ultra dispensational you know they they don't believe in baptism or the

39:05

Lord's Supper and I I believe they only think the words of Paul are for the church and so on and so forth and we have we have kind of some outliners in the

39:17

Reformed and Presbyterian circles too so there is a we recently did a couple episodes on something called federal vision and so within federal vision they believe that a baptism a child is united to Christ that is that is not the historic

39:34

Reformed view though that and and I would say what you were talking about Andrew too that there would even be differences

39:40

I won't get really deep into that right now but there would be differences even among Reformed and Presbyterians about what you were talking about so yeah

39:49

I mean similar in that we have different views and because the first time I was studying the Reformed view remember

39:56

I I came from a Jewish background as you know and came into a fundamentalist

40:01

Baptist dispensational church and that's what I knew and I still think it's right just saying but well some of it no you're not the

40:10

King James part but but as I've been reading from the ESV right the but the point being is

40:16

I look at that and when I first heard of the infant baptism and this idea that children are getting baptized and by virtue of being baptized into covenant family they would be saved when they die

40:31

I in a wrong view jump to a conclusion that Presbyterians or Reformed folk would argue that children are saved by baptism but adults are saved by grace now those are things and this

40:47

I'm saying this as a warning for folks those are things that could happen you can have people who it seems like that's what it's saying but I'm gonna go back to what

40:58

I said earlier and in this podcast you have to be able to defend someone else's position to know that you rightly understand it and as I started to understand the view that that Reformed folk would have more and I am making the distinction

41:13

I should have all these distinctions we have to make I'm making distinction on Reformed folk Reformed people versus myself as dispensational because I take

41:22

Reformed in its historical sense a lot of people use Reformed today to refer to the doctrines of grace or what's called

41:30

Calvinism that's historically not what Reformed means as Colleen has been pointing out it is more to do with the way you're gonna interpret the scriptures a view of the covenants and things like that that a dispensationalist wouldn't hold so in that terminology

41:49

I'm gonna separate myself from being Reformed because I wouldn't be Reformed in that way now as far as doctrines of grace that's a different issue we could talk about right so the the thing though that I was trying to say is when we look at the way that Reformed people would argue

42:07

I had to understand how they viewed infant baptism to realize that they weren't saying that the baptism saves the child it doesn't add some grace to the child it is something that is bringing them into a relationship through their parents that some would say not all some would say that those children would go to heaven and the thing

42:36

I ended up realizing is that there's many Baptists who would argue that all children go to heaven the the

42:43

Reformed would some Reformed would would make a distinction on whether it's whether they're baptized or not what really what they're gonna focus on and this is gonna be essential to the issue of the

42:52

Sabbath it has to do with the covenants how we view the covenants and that covenant relationship and we're gonna see as I'm gonna say

43:06

I'm gonna see as a Baptist that that covenant relationship that Israel had was maybe twofold there was a national covenant that Israel had and for some within Israel a spiritual covenant that they had

43:25

I personally think that reflects very closely to what we see in the church and what

43:30

Colleen referenced she referenced the visible invisible church if you listen to the podcast

43:37

I did on the church and in the daily podcast we went through what the church is I talked about that difference the visible or local church is where the church gathers so on Sunday I go to a building and the church gathers

43:55

I am NOT into thinking that everybody that goes to that building is a

44:01

Christian but everybody that is a Christian is part of the invisible or it's called universal church so some distinctions maybe this is new for folks but these distinctions are important I think that in within Israel there were those who were saved and part of the nation and there were those who were not saved but part of the nation

44:25

I think within the local church there's some who are saved I hope the majority and part of the local body and there's also some who are not saved and part of the local body what do you think of that calling that fair yeah

44:41

I think that I think that that's that's fair I was gonna say something else and it just totally went about what you just said and it just totally went went out of my head

44:53

I'm actually I I'm reading I'm reading a great book and it's actually a critique of dispensationalism but there's some good stuff in it well it's only a great book if it disagrees with the critiques that it's making and you'll have to I can't

45:10

I can't even tell you tell you what it is but I'm reading it to have this pastor in our podcast but you know there are

45:17

I think I think it some people make the mistake of not recognizing the areas that we do agree and which he kind of talks about in in the book and I I think that's important and I think even

45:31

I I'm hoping that one thing people can see when Andrew and I sometimes do these podcasts and we did a podcast before where we were pretty much agreeing the whole time but one thing

45:43

I'm I'm really hoping that this can be an example is that you can disagree with people and do so with charity and grace and and still recognize that your brothers and sisters in Christ because so often on social media we see just vicious and uncharitable and unkind debates and if Andrew and I agree on all of the essential doctrines of the

46:12

Christian faith and that's why we recognize each other as brother and sister but we can take these secondary issues and we can disagree but we can do it with charity and grace and as you know very well

46:26

Colleen this is a core part of the ministry of striving fraternity that we want to portray that's the whole reason we want to do a

46:35

Christian podcast community is to get people we may not all agree that's okay we can still promote one another and work within a community to promote one another to help one another to to further one another's ministry for the glory of God and that's so an anathema to social media

46:57

I understand but this is thing we an issue like the

47:02

Sabbath is one that we're supposed to have so much disagreement on and yet I think that there is there's actually a lot more agreement than disagreement on this we're gonna where I'm gonna disagree

47:14

I'll tell you a story I think I've told you this Colleen in in in private you know off -air but I went and you know this

47:22

I went to a Presbyterian Church I was invited to speak I was actually because of the situation

47:28

I was speaking at this church for five weeks it was five Sundays I was going to be speaking all five

47:34

Sundays and we had a gentleman that came in he was a first time coming to the church he had been brought up Baptist and he told me that he came and talked to me because I'm the guy he saw at the pulpit now

47:49

I was not teaching on anything that would be different from you know that there would be an issue of differences with within our our views and but he came up and asked me what would be a difference between a

48:04

Baptist church he grew up in and his I was able to explain accurately the

48:09

Presbyterian view of baptism I answered I said I'm a Baptist but this church teaches pastor had said to me

48:15

I wish the people in my church understood Presbyterian baptism as well as you a Baptist understand that's what we should look to do something else happened at that church dealing with the

48:27

Sabbath it's one of those providential things and I don't know whether Colleen is gonna be upset with hearing this maybe she holds this view

48:38

I could get myself in trouble but I was at the church my routine was to stop by Dunkin Donuts and pick up a coffee on my way to church and to enjoy that coffee while I drove to the church and I usually would walk in and when

48:58

I taught the Sunday school I would enjoy that coffee and I was glad that I didn't this particular time because when the pastor was teaching because he did some of the some of the teaching each of those days and as he was teaching he talked about the

49:15

Sabbath and his view and his Presbyterian view was that to go to and he used the example of Dunkin Donuts here's what happened when

49:25

I got to church I forgot my coffee in the car knucklehead that I am and I actually said to my wife

49:30

I forgot my coffee in the car I so want my coffee right now while he was teaching and then he started teaching about the

49:37

Sabbath and he said that to go to a place like Dunkin Donuts on a Sunday would be to force someone to have to work and that would make force you'd be forcing them to break the

49:48

Sabbath and I went I'm so glad I forgot my coffee in the car because if I had

49:55

I brought my Dunkin Donuts coffee in the car I I could have been causing him to stumble but there are people that would have a view that you don't go to you don't go to restaurants you don't go to places where you'd be having someone else work now in case some think this is just a reformed

50:16

Presbyterian view at a church here in New Jersey in Montville a Baptist Church but it's reformed

50:23

Baptist they would hold to the same view in fact if I remember correctly in their doctrinal statement they would say that you could be disciplined out of church for going to a restaurant on Sunday because they would hold to a

50:35

Sabbath even though they were Baptists so there I'm saying that to say there is this distinctions that we have on the issue of Sabbath I don't want it to be just a

50:48

Presbyterian Baptist debate because it isn't and as Colleen said we have some disagreements on what specific things we could do on a

50:57

Sunday in that podcast they did mention that we I think we all agree on this that the day of worship moved from the the

51:06

Saturday rest to the Sunday celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and we should look and seek for those things that we agree discuss our differences

51:20

Colleen and I don't completely agree on a Sabbath we both agree that there was a

51:26

Sabbath at creation but we're gonna disagree on some of those laws given in the first five books for Israel we're gonna disagree we're good yeah you saw we disagree on how to divide the law we disagree on the views of covenants

51:45

I'm gonna see the covenant a little bit different dispensationalists do hold to covenants by the way Colleen knows this but we do we see them as part of each dispensation but notice the differences that we have in how we're going about the disagreement

52:03

I mean that's that's I think what you wanted to get across as well right and I'm actually what

52:09

I was gonna say earlier which slipped my mind was exactly exactly what you just said a second ago because you had been using the

52:17

Baptist Presbyterian distinction but really Reform Baptists hold to the same

52:24

I mean the the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith is very similar to the Westminster Confession on the

52:31

Sabbath so you're gonna have Reform Baptists and you're gonna have Reformed and Presbyterians the

52:37

Reformed hold to the three three forms of unity which is the Heidelberg Catechism the

52:42

Belgic Confession and the Canons of Dort and then the Presbyterians hold to the Westminster Standards which is the confession the

52:50

Westminster Confession and the shorter and larger Catechism and then you have the Reform Baptists and so the

52:56

Reform Baptists will have a similar view on the Sabbath that we do some

53:03

Reform Baptists because there's actually a split within the Reform Baptists and it's it was actually between two brothers but there was there was a split within that where some hold to a

53:17

Sabbath some don't and so even with you can't even say all Reform Baptists would fit into that I'm gonna depends on how you define

53:27

Reform Baptists correct yeah and I'm gonna say that the only Creed is the Bible just saying that's the only confession

53:34

I but but and and you know that becomes important thing is how we use the confessions

53:41

I'm gonna I would read the confessions but I don't I don't go to I go to them as I would a commentary and I think you said on your podcast and I was jokingly saying about you guys using the confession because you quoted a lot but in your podcast

53:57

I don't know if I played the clip you even said that the confessions say it well that's why these are men who are thoughtful they addressed in detail and they really try to clarify these issues and so quoting the confessions is not saying the confessions are equal in authority to scripture and this is an argument some

54:23

Baptists would make they're wrong Colleen and Ashley were not trying to say that even though I was joking with that they're not saying that's equal authority of scripture they're not saying that it's authoritative in any way other than to say as any other commentary as any other man would would proclaim

54:43

God's Word and say this is the interpretation that's what the confessions are they're not scripture but they are they're gonna be seen as a little bit of a different authority in this sense

54:56

I'm not gonna I'm gonna see it as a commentary as something that's helpful in understanding theology where some would see it as a little bit more authoritative because it's part of their church government it's not scripture well right okay so it is anyone who says that it's equal to scripture does not believe the confession because the confession does not say that in fact it opposes that idea but a lot of people if if the idea of catechism and confessions and I remember the first time

55:31

I heard this in my early 20s and I thought only the only Catholics have catechisms and confessions but but any

55:40

I'm sure even your church Andrew has a confession of faith and so there is there is there is some ecclesiastical standing that the that the confessions have but we do not believe that they're equal in authority to scripture you know one of the things about Presbyterians they like using these big words ecclesiastical just say church no but that's what it means right so it's it's just for folks who don't know the term it refers to church issues of the church so I think we tried to address the issue of the

56:22

Sabbath I actually did say to Colleen and Ashley I was going to respond to their episode on the

56:28

Sabbath some areas where I agreed and disagreed and Colleen and I talked and said you know

56:34

I instead of just responding it's better to have the dialogue so that's why she came in she didn't she didn't kind of crash even though I would jokingly invited them into debate me on this in that sense not

56:48

I don't think I use the word debate but invited them in to discuss it I knew she was online the whole time just saying although I have been known to crash other people's podcasts they and I've it's been the claim but I always got the invites so but I do know

57:11

I do know just just saying I pet the the guys at the growth growth project

57:17

I know when they do their recordings and I know the link to join I know how to crash it

57:24

I threatened them that I might crash one day wait actually aren't you doing an episode with them yes in fact when this when this podcast airs

57:35

I will have it would have already aired back a week ago so we can put a link in the episode notes we'll be talking about Ephesians 5 and kind of a woman's perspective on that on marital submission and and just how that looks in marriage so if I crashed that podcast they won't hear this yet and folks wouldn't know unless they go back and listen or if they listened it they'll know that I crashed it unless I give him a warning that would be fun all right so we have a couple minutes left do you want to play a game actually before I play a game

58:22

I wanted to mention our last night your last podcast was okay now let's okay let's say it this way we could say your last podcast was controversial but then

58:37

I would say but the last two before that were even more so well let's see so we did federal vision

58:45

I wouldn't even talk about that we did recently do an episode on modesty and all positive feedback on that so really really thankful yeah all positive feedback so far anyways and but the one we just aired this week is there's a really popular book in I don't know

59:05

Christian evangelical circles for what that it's geared towards Christian women and it's called girl wash your face and we have gotten so many emails and notes and questions in our group because women are coming in saying all my friends are reading this book and so we investigate it we found out it was being used at Bible studies we both

59:30

Angela and I because Angela's filling in for Ashley right now we both read it and we reviewed it and I'll just say if if you are somebody who's heard about that book and maybe your man and your wife has it do listen to that podcast because that book is not

59:47

Christian it's a self help book it's full of new thought law of attraction if you don't know what that is maybe you're familiar with the book the secret that was very popular a few weeks ago a few years ago it's

01:00:00

I think it's potentially dangerous and I think that the fact that it is so popular among Christian women really is proof of the lack of discernment out there

01:00:14

I was gonna ask you is it mostly a women's book oh it's definitely geared towards it's absolutely geared towards women

01:00:21

I don't I don't I haven't even seen anywhere I did so much research on I didn't see one man who said oh

01:00:27

I read this book and it was great it's definitely geared towards women okay yeah cuz

01:00:34

I I know when you mentioned it to me I had never heard of it I mean that doesn't mean that it's you know

01:00:41

I I but I I'm kind of a you know a bibliophile

01:00:46

I kind of enjoy books so right well just to let you know how popular it's it's been on the

01:00:53

New York Times bestseller list it's been on the Amazon I think it was number one for weeks and weeks on the

01:00:59

Amazon religion and spirituality list now that doesn't necessarily say anything but I think

01:01:06

I think probably you haven't heard of it Andrew and I really hadn't I don't think it's popular in our circle so much but I think it's popular in broader evangelicalism you know some of the other kinds of churches out there yeah the books the books you and I enjoy reading are not the ones that make it to the

01:01:27

New York Times bestseller list right or the the list of religion and spirituality on Amazon yeah so someone had sent me a message two weeks ago

01:01:38

I think it was that said that they were very upset because when they went and looked up the rap report they had heard someone told him about it they heard about it and they actually contacted us because when you

01:01:54

I guess when you went and look for rap report iTunes comes up with other podcasts like it and Joel Osteen and I forget her name the woman

01:02:07

Joyce Meyers that they came up and this person sent an email to the ministry telling me how we have to repent of our false teaching that we're associated with people like this

01:02:23

I went are you very new to podcasting and they were like yeah why yeah we have no association with them that's iTunes just going here's the most popular

01:02:34

Christian right anyone can call themselves a religious or Christian podcast and yeah it's it's a checkmark that they do when you when you create your podcast it's what category are you in and there's just as really general religious one everyone fits in there right yeah it was funny

01:03:00

I did get and I didn't pull it up I should have earlier we got some very interesting hate mail in last couple of weeks that there's just it's almost entertaining and I was

01:03:11

I was gonna read some of them and I forgot to pull them up and if I bring up my email pride make all kinds of beeping noises so instead how about we play a game all right it's time now to start the spiritual transition game now

01:03:31

Colleen I know you are very familiar with this game you just don't play it on theology gals yet well no probably when probably around the time our new website comes out and we have we have a little surprise for Andrew oh no maybe

01:03:56

I should work against getting that website so this game is a game we play to help folks learn to transition from the natural world to spiritual world so you could take any conversation and turn it to the gospel and so Colleen is gonna give me something and I get to try to transition from whatever she gives me to the gospel okay see

01:04:22

I always know this is coming but I always forget and I'm never prepared so I literally look around my room and whatever comes to mind okay so I want to think of something that could be like could really happen like I always like going to the grocery store and I don't know they're gonna have to go listen at theology gals which

01:04:46

I don't even know which episode that was when you guys but I may have the clip

01:04:51

I my husband works for United Airlines and so I always think in terms of sitting next to people on an airplane because I always have great not always but I've some great conversations

01:05:05

I've had I've been on airplanes so I'm gonna think in terms of that like if you're sitting next to somebody on an airplane so how about you're sitting next to somebody on an airplane

01:05:17

Andrew and they are reading on their Kindle now you have to figure out they're just reading on the

01:05:27

Kindle yeah yeah so a Kindle so how are you gonna okay so they're reading from a

01:05:33

Kindle and now you have to figure out how to I thought you were gonna do something because there

01:05:38

I spend unfortunately a lot of time on an airplane I gave you something easy

01:05:43

I could have said a bag of peanuts but yeah because you know I did actually have

01:05:49

I was on not an airplane but an Amtrak and I this is where I thought you were gonna go because I was sitting next to someone and they were reading a book and their book happened to be from TJ Jake's that was a different kind of conversation okay so they're reading on a

01:06:03

Kindle and I got a transition from or get this conversation from the Kindle to to there do

01:06:10

I get to know what they're reading no you can't even see from okay so I can't see now you just know that they're reading a

01:06:19

Kindle okay all right so I'm gonna be rude and interrupt their reading because they would just wanted to sit and read

01:06:27

I of course ask what they're reading and clearly they're not telling me which means you know what they're just reading it's it's a woman and she's just reading a

01:06:40

Nicholas Sparks book so it just know what that is okay so like love stories okay so you know

01:06:49

I here's the thing I would I think I would do I would be talking about the fact that I am amazed with Kindles I really am the whole idea and and the next generation it's gonna be a foreign thing when

01:07:01

I would travel I carried with me at least five different books because there's times where I'm on the plane and I'll usually put two books on the plane but I'd be traveling and I don't know what

01:07:14

I'm in the mood to read I'd ask her she ever had that experience I'm sure she would because you know that's like for people that love to read we have this problem and I would tend to bring a lot of books with me my wife would give me a hard time because I'd bring more books than I can actually read on the trip but I never knew what

01:07:33

I was in the mood to read because sometimes I want to read different types of books but the beautiful thing about the

01:07:39

Kindle is I have everything right there I don't have to sit there and think about what to bring anymore it's all downloaded in one place and now that I have my iPad

01:07:50

I have the Kindle app I can bring up different books and I have like a hundred or plus books in Kindle and I could choose any of them it's nice to have that variety and and the freedom to be able to select anything but an interesting thing is you can't do that without first having the

01:08:10

Kindle you can't have that freedom to have all those books without having the actual device and that is something that we often forget we as we technology expands we tend to forget what it was like in the past but a lot of things we kind of forget one of the things we often forget in our past I don't know if you've had this experience but we kind of forget those things we do that are bad like they're wrong to other people we kind of only want to look at the good things we do we forget the bad but aren't we good at remembering bad things people did to us sure she's gonna agree cuz like everyone does so the reality is we we remember things people do to us we forget the bad things we do to others you know because part of our nature is we think highly of ourselves so highly that we often think that we should make all the decisions in our life and not have anyone else tell us what to do and yet we're accountable to other people we're accountable to a

01:09:16

God and now you may not believe in God but let me tell you something you and I you could be more moral than I but we're both accountable to the

01:09:25

God that gave us breath in our lungs that created us and you know what he he says that we're gonna be accountable when we do bad things to others just like we want to hold it against others who do bad things to us

01:09:37

God's gonna hold that against us and therefore he's gonna judge us and in that judgment he's gonna judge us we're gonna be guilty we would deserve a lake of fire for eternity but God himself came to earth and paid the fine that you and I could be set free if we turn from trusting ourself as a good person turn from trusting our good works turn to Jesus Christ and he was that payment

01:10:00

God almighty who paid the fine for us we can have eternal life that's how

01:10:06

I would do that poorly see and I was just thinking if it were me and I would

01:10:13

I would just be like oh you have a Kindle I love my Kindle I have found so many wonderful free books for my

01:10:22

Kindle do you know you can get the Bible like on every version for free digitally and then

01:10:28

I would probably go from there hmm you know that's part of the game though every person is going to take the same thing differently and when we play this we learn from each other that's why

01:10:40

I played I used to play this all time in the youth group because there's so many different views you get in on it and everyone has a different way and it's it's fun it's entertaining you know it takes time it takes practice the more you practice the better you get though and then you don't need to wait for opportunities you can make them so I think we went a little bit longer than had planned but I think

01:11:03

I hope this was informative for folks I do want to encourage you guys to go out to theology gals listen to episodes

01:11:09

I will link their Sabbath episode along with the links to their their website for now and that you know the podcast that they have so if you want to go check out their podcasts if you have an app the podcast app whatever it is just search for theology gals you're gonna see it and then subscribe also do a favor to both of us if you're listening is write a review in iTunes now let me preface something you hear all these podcasters say write us a review it helps us no it doesn't know the only way it actually helps if you get like tons of tons of reviews in a single day positive reviews then it it will affect it because what they look at is the number of reviews that you're getting and their their star rating they're not really looking at the individual reviews if it's smaller but you know what those reviews do boy do they encourage us because as podcasters we sit and talk to our microphone and we don't always get to hear from you now if you're a woman sorry guys you're not allowed on this one but there is a theology gals group where there's lots of discussion and that's a way that Colleen and Ashley get to you know have dialogue with their listeners if you want to do that dialogue with me go to the group that is striving for eternity

01:12:46

I don't separate this podcast from the from our ministry so go to the the striving fraternity group and that's where we try to dialogue and we want to have the feedback with you guys leaving a review on iTunes helps with that and I know that I have a link in the show notes for where you can go to iTunes to send a review but those are encouraging send emails and if you want to email me you can email me at info at striving for eternity dot org and they send that over to me and so I encourage you to email please because I want to know what you think

01:13:27

I want to dialogue with you guys you think the show's good you think it's bad you think there's room for improvement you have topics that you want to hear last week's topic on depression was because several people in the striving fraternity group wanted to have discussed the topic of depression so we want to respond to you guys will probably sometime in October be giving away possibly another

01:13:55

Bible a nice goat -skinned ESV but we may be holding that off closer to Christmas we're gonna see but I do want to let you guys know we're gonna be having a new podcast to look forward to yes for folks who've been waiting folks who know that Matt slick from karma org and I used to do podcasting together you do a show a two -hour show we are doing it again it will be called apologetics live it will be

01:14:24

Thursday nights at 8 o 'clock to 10 o 'clock Eastern Standard Time and you'll get more information as the month goes on but September 27th is when that's going to start and then we'll do it for the most part every

01:14:39

Thursday night and that will be something that we will have video and then we'll turn that into a podcast hopefully by October and we'll be able to drop that podcast there and you'll be able to listen to the show that is a show where if you want if you're an atheist out there you want to disagree with us come on well you'll get a chance to talk with Matt debate with Matt and then we talk about how we went about that discussion the reasons why certain questions get answered asked and answered the way they do to help train up new apologists and so apologetics live calm will be the website when we get it up it's not up yet it'll be coming up but look forward to that toward the end of the month we're gonna have even more podcasts dropping on the

01:15:28

Christian podcast community some that I can't speak of yet but some names that you will know and so be tuning into that if you want just do a search in your podcast app for Christian podcast community and then you get to listen to all of the podcasts that are on there right now it's the rap report and theology answers but there's going to be more coming as I just mentioned and we have our own group for podcasters called

01:15:56

Christian podcast community if you are a Christian podcaster come join our group now are there are two groups out there with a smaller one hopefully not for long but we're we're out there to help people with to produce better podcast one of the things that we're doing right now is helping people find that want to be guests to find ways to get on to different shows to be a guest these are the sort of things we're trying to do as a community

01:16:25

Colleen anything else that we want to share about the community you're a big part of it no

01:16:32

I think you you hit on everything I mean if you're somebody that is thinking I want to start a podcast and I don't even know what to do to start it's a good place you can connect with other podcasters and you know learn all the basics things we've had people that have joined the

01:16:50

Facebook group and said you know I need help in turning our churches sermons into a podcast and or I want to start a podcast

01:17:00

I have no idea you know where to start and so here we got an encouragement this week by someone who said that they had didn't really know how to start a podcast and because of the group they are starting their podcast and they now have the feeling that they have the skills to just start their own podcast and so that was someone that we've been

01:17:25

I've been talking with because one of the things that Colleen and I try to do within that is some discipleship mentoring for folks who want to learn how to podcast help you get up to speed quicker and that's gonna be a podcast we're actually gonna be doing shortly we are gonna start a podcast maybe by October called so you want to be a podcaster and that's gonna be one for you to tune into if you want to be a podcaster so Colleen thanks for coming on I appreciate it appreciate you uh you know receiving the correction well that I know it's only cuz you had me muted so so I hope that by the end of this year now dispensational and see you you forgot to tell that the people that I used to be a dispensational and then

01:18:17

I saw the truth but hey that would mean that you return to dispensationalism no but I do

01:18:27

I do want to appreciate you coming on I want to thank you for all that you guys are doing over at theology gals it's good good work over there and I do think even though I disagree sometimes with the things you guys discuss

01:18:39

I'm sure you disagree with some of the things I discussed but that doesn't mean we can't have charity with one another amen all right well until next week remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God this podcast is part of the striving for eternity ministry for more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church go to strivingforeternity .org

01:19:04

hey just so folks know since the recording of this after I forgot to mention this during the recording but you know we recorded this on a

01:19:15

Sunday night that's the Sabbath just wanted to say for the record that if Colleen had a view that you shouldn't work on the

01:19:24

Sabbath just saying it was a Sabbath day that we recorded that's why