Cultish: Jordan Peterson: We Who Wrestle With God Tour Review

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:03

All right, welcome back to Coltish ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co -hosts here

00:09

We are doing a very interesting podcast today. I'm all here along with I've actually for the first time

00:15

We are here with mr. Sean O 'Brien your first time on the podcast your first time ever doing a podcast.

00:21

How you feeling? I'm doing a podcast. This is great. I'm really glad to be here excited to have this conversation

00:27

Yes, I am also with Will Spencer you are back again and called us welcome back man back again, let's go

00:34

Okay, so we are all here together. Let's jump into it We were at the

00:39

Jordan Peterson wrestle with God tour. We were there last night we saw

00:45

Jordan Peterson speak and so this is gonna be an episode that's gonna be more of like a review of Kind of talking a little bit about the event

00:53

But a lot of you made probably weren't haven't been at the Jordan Peterson Russell God Tory It's actually an upcoming book

00:59

One of his upcoming books that he is coming out with and so we're gonna be talking a little bit about the event

01:04

But kind of also just sort of an overview of just a lot of Jordan Peterson's work Just a lot of and also just a lot of his audience what makes people enthralled by him.

01:13

So yeah, let's just jump into it Yeah, so Let's just introduce each other real quickly.

01:19

So we'll give everyone the background just about yourself Where you come from cases the first time that I'm ever hearing you on coldish

01:26

Given the quick quick cliff notes resume of who you are and what you're all about Sure, I'm the host of the

01:31

Renaissance of men podcast talk about Christian virtue masculinity femininity the family family

01:37

Then about 180 episodes pretty proud of that I create trouble on social media under the handle at ran of men re n o f m e n mostly on Mostly on Twitter and also on Instagram.

01:48

So host the Renaissance of men podcast is who I am and what I'm about Awesome and show Brian tell me one just a little about yourself.

01:55

Okay. Sure. My name is Sean O 'Brien I'm the the sole proprietor of O 'Brien

02:01

Fitness and Lifestyle. It's a personal trainer. I Came to Christ goodness nearly three years ago and No over three years.

02:12

Anyway And I I train I train men

02:17

I train women. I'm looking to Get people into shape and do it all for cloud scoring awesome

02:26

And you're doing that to me at least once or twice a week I get myself and I think that I'm actually able to finally use my legs again a full propriety

02:34

Me leg day was only last Thursday. So, uh, I'd always appreciate the hard work that you do real quickly

02:40

I'm just curious as we jump into it. So with regards to your testimony You had told me on the at the gym that Jordan Peterson sort of did play a role

02:50

Into that just tell me just about that real quickly Okay, I was

02:57

I've been following Jordan Peterson since He kind of broke out onto the scene in 2017 with the whole thing in at the college in Toronto, mm -hmm and You know, you know it was the it was the law at the time where?

03:16

It was compelled speech You had you had to say that the trans man was a man the trans woman was a woman and and he he

03:26

Made the national and then the world stage Opposing that and It was shortly after that that his his

03:35

YouTube channel exploded I remember watching a number of his son of sermons of his discussions of his lectures and I was really drawn to what he was saying that period of my life was

03:47

Pretty chaotic. I had recently Like that year sobered up from from alcohol for this final time and It you know kind of falling, you know where I was

04:05

Jordan Peterson had a lot to say that Really really resonated with me at the time, you know things like clean your room things like take responsibility for yourself

04:16

You know, I had been Agnostic for a number of years atheist before that and it was

04:26

Partially Jordan Peterson that got me kind of pointed in the direction of God and who

04:36

God was and what God was about and and what did he have to say about things and This Eventually led to me

04:49

Coming to Christ in 2001 and 2021 yeah 2021 excuse me.

04:58

Thank you and it Radically changed my life and it was shortly after that a

05:07

Month and a half later that I moved down here to Phoenix. Hmm. It was like It was almost like one thing after another it was it was quite the story, but I remember listening to 12 rules for life

05:20

You know during kind of you know, some some serious training that I was doing at the time, you know in the morning

05:27

Stretching doing my workouts and I'd have him plugged in and I'd just be listening as I worked out and A lot of this was during Kovat or you know shortly like post post lockdowns and you know, he he

05:43

He was a prominent voice for me in a time of Rebuilding in my life.

05:52

Hmm. So let me ask you this this maybe just if I can just kind of prod into that a little Bit so usually when somebody who people that come from a background of addiction when they're in that process

06:02

There's a whole time. There's a whole there sounds like a phrase like being addicted to chaos just being in a world of chaos

06:09

But one of the things that Jordan Peterson sort of talks about in a lot of his talks We heard that actually

06:14

I think last night During his talk the rest at the Russell of God tour was about having order bringing order out of chaos

06:22

That seems to come a lot I mean that sort of Language that talk was that something that kind of appealed to you?

06:27

With just a lot of his talks and kind of the emphasis that he seems to put in a lot of his lectures yeah,

06:33

I mean he's a Psychotherapist psychologist psychologist

06:40

Yeah, he's had a practice for I don't know how many years how many decades a while Recently, I guess just lost that and so a lot of his a

06:52

Lot of the lectures that I've seen a lot of the you know in the case of like 12 rules for life it was in the context of that practice and what he has learned and what he's picked up and And I'll speak for myself, you know coming coming from a time of chaos like that having things explained very simply to me

07:15

Was was really powerful I remember at the time, you know, he was branded as Right -wing and misogynistic and there was the big famous Kathy Newman interview, you know

07:27

I always you really are appealing to men, you know, what's going on with that? and yeah, and You know, there wasn't necessarily anything specific, you know,

07:40

I really should read that book again. It was an excellent book There wasn't anything specifically like you know,

07:49

I Don't recall that his Kind of a lot of these lectures were necessarily directly specifically at men.

07:59

Mm -hmm Like there's there's a lot of stuff that I that seemed gender -neutral, you know

08:04

It could equally be applied to women but it you know, there's there's a lot to be said about You know cleaning your room taking on responsibility taking on a burden, you know

08:16

I think probably my favorite thing that he has ever said that really resonated with me and still resonates with me in my training and and with my clients is

08:27

Is his outlook on suffering Which is you know, we're gonna suffer there's there is a

08:37

Some measure of suffering that's going to occur in our life However, we get to choose

08:43

We get to choose what that suffering is and so in the context of like clean your room

08:50

You know not making a choice In the case of being an addict. Yeah doing nothing.

08:57

I'm just chaos and Everything's a mess not making a choice is a choice.

09:02

I am choosing that suffering by not doing anything Versus And okay,

09:10

I've sobered up cleaned up somehow I've gotten through all of this and at the time I didn't think it was

09:15

God But looking back now it certainly was so I'm cotton

09:21

I've gotten and come through come this this this this gauntlet this this fire and And now

09:28

I got it. Okay, I gotta get a place. I got it. I got to pay my bills I got to get insurance on the car.

09:35

I got to have the job to pay for all of these things I've got to buy furniture. I've got to get electric

09:41

Get an electric And make sure my electricity is turned on in my apartment You know make sure the water is paid for like all of these responsibilities of life, which

09:51

I had shirked Through my use now. I've got to take this on. That's a kind of suffering

09:58

You know, like really taking on responsibility like that fully and seriously for the first time and And that kind of there was momentum to it, you know taking on that responsibility

10:14

Prepared me to take on the next and eventually I'm like looking at the mirror looking myself. What am I doing? you know and Got really really serious about getting into shape and I proceeded to get into the best shape of my life as a consequence

10:28

Covid was really was really informative in that way So I would say yeah that that bit on suffering is probably the thing that I would point to the most is something that that I connected with hmm

10:43

No, I think you're sharing that man. I appreciate that I will what about you magazine me? We kind of know, you know

10:49

Your story coming out the new age and sort of the the whole process of you coming to Christ Like when did you first come across Jordan Peterson and initially like what were some of the positive aspect that just stuck out to you?

11:00

Personally that well like when what was it like for you? Like how did he he's sort of the cultural forefront of just everyone sort of knows about him on some level

11:08

It seems like at this time now it now. Yeah now as of now. Yeah, how did you first? Run pass in the digital sphere.

11:16

I'm with like with Jordan with mr. Peterson. Well before I answer that question I just I just want to speak to some of Sean's transformation because he and I met in 2020 just at the beginning of when he really started his physical transformation

11:28

I didn't know at that point that you were coming out of addiction or maybe I did But I didn't understand the depth of it

11:34

And so Sean and I have known each other now for going on four years actually and and to have seen his transformation

11:39

Physically his transformation spiritually has just been one of the great blessings in my life So I can just speak to the difference that that Christ makes in a man's life

11:48

And then also how important it is for us as men to hear in this particular day and age

11:53

To clean up our room in whatever way that lands for us, right? And so Peterson wasn't really speaking to men specifically.

12:01

He wasn't saying men clean up your room, you know, but what he was saying Here's a here's a man who's clean -cut put together, you know trimmed looks what looks nice carries himself

12:11

Well, he's an author and he has this dad energy this professor dad energy that so many men have been

12:19

Deprived of we have a live in a fatherless generation Absent abdicating fathers, right and so you have that for a lot of men and a lot of women but men need it

12:28

Especially and so Jordan Peterson starts speaking like about the trans thing and in Canada, right?

12:33

and suddenly it was almost as if men all over the world saw these clips and were like Like dad, right from what they something they've never really had before Yeah, and so I first encountered

12:46

Jordan Peterson in summer of 2017 spring 2017 I Was in New Zealand at the time and someone there told me about his appearance

12:54

I guess on Joe Rogan the guy was like, yeah, you should really check him out And so I started listening to everything

12:59

I could find and all throughout that summer 2017 I was listening to just like Jordan Peterson constantly

13:05

But I was interested in this stuff They had to say in an intellectual level because I had already discovered a lot of the conversation about masculinity

13:13

Four years earlier from another direction So he was saying things that I had heard before but he was saying them on the public stage

13:21

Stuff that I had heard and you know in men's groups and stuff like that how to become better men some books that had been

13:26

Written but here was a guy saying it on the biggest stage ever and it was like what is going on here? It's very very interesting.

13:32

So I didn't quite have the same orienting reaction like help me clean up my life I could appreciate it for what it was just like Appreciate appreciating the the depth of his intellect and breadth of his interests, but that was for me like wow there's someone saying these things on this

13:48

Global political media stage and he's saying them really well. Mm -hmm, right? So that was kind of what it was for me

13:54

Yeah, interesting. I remember to the very first time I I came across him was the footage of the up in Canada The very first time and I just remember

14:03

I think the footage I remember like it was yesterday And it was wasn't even done by him It was somebody else wherever the activist was going around is filling people trying to get them to Say my pronouns and all of a sudden here's this guy

14:15

I think it's with slick back hair and suspenders and just kind of an odd -looking guy in my opinion I was like, oh, who's this guy?

14:21

And all I just remember he said a couple of things immediately I was I was Lou I was that guy you just mentioned like whoa, like who is this guy?

14:30

Like what that's it. I did not see that coming. That's a behind -the -back pass You know, I did not see

14:36

With the way he kind of altered what she was saying and she was like turning through a loop and I was like Oh, that's a cool clip on my life

14:44

And then it was later on. I think what really stuck to me was

14:49

That interview with you may have mentioned her before she was that it was something new and Kathy knew it over the

14:55

UK Like literally that conversation and just just the body language and that like that became a meme template

15:01

Like I made me I made memes of that conversation before I listened to the conversation because there's so much

15:08

About what was told in that conversation just through the body language of the hurt sort of asking those questions and Jordan Peterson I'm like, like, what are you talking about?

15:17

So it's been very interesting to see Like him and and how he's just become this cultural forefront so this

15:27

Last night. Let's jump into it. We saw him live Mm -hmm.

15:32

A lot of people how many play we was at the Arizona Financial Center, Arizona Financial Center Yeah, how many people how many people do you think were there?

15:40

It was a packed house few few thousand Yeah, probably like eight nine thousand people think it holds. Yeah, something like that.

15:46

Maybe no. No, there was probably about a Thousand to fifteen hundred really consult the

15:53

Internet It was a decent amount of people I mean this wasn't like a sports stadium, this is it was a theater it was a theater and Peterson is one of those interesting

16:08

Folks that I got followed him and there's so many times Where you know, we're a

16:14

Christian podcast And so you look at somebody that is in some sense like this cold of personality and I there's so many times

16:20

You can give me your thoughts in this where I see him and it's like oh that is so spot -on

16:25

Like some of the things he talked about like last night about our rights coming from God and and all of a sudden

16:31

Superseding the state and talking about a transcendent law. He mentioned that last night in his podcast. Yep.

16:36

There's plenty of times where he talks very Presuppositionally lit like things where it's like, ah you are so close man

16:45

And then right in the very next breath He says something that's so off kilter and out in left field and he makes

16:53

Something from the Old Testament seem What was he saying that the he was giving a sample like Cain and Abel how somehow that is actually some sort of psychological metaphor but before like transcendence into Just the next level of human involvement

17:09

I think I'm paraphrasing it or just a descendant or being like Cain to be sending into chaos

17:15

You know like one versus the other so we talk almost use the sort of duality And so I don't know like when you guys know like he was a big work part in like your role to Christ and I Think he's he's actually been helpful for me in some ways and help her for you.

17:30

Like, where do you think? What are the areas in which like he he's really good at versus like where he's off?

17:37

And what's like the splitting hair the dividing line? Like what make it's almost like this

17:43

Do it like duality between him being like spot -on versus him being like, uh, like I witnessed that a lot last night

17:49

What do you guys think? Well, the first thing the first thing that he does is he? Psychologizes the

17:55

Old Testament. Yeah, right And so so he doesn't treat the Old Testament biblical stories particularly from Genesis and Exodus That's what he focuses on sometimes he'll mention

18:04

Job or Jonah, but primarily primarily Genesis and Exodus He takes those stories and he reinterprets them in a

18:11

Jungian way to be symbolic of our own inner psychological emotional spiritual processes

18:17

Right, so he takes he takes Genesis and he doesn't approach Genesis as if it's an actual literal historical rendering of events that occurred

18:26

He treats it as if a metaphor for our own internal psychological processes

18:32

And so when you do that, you assign meaning to things that the author And the authors of the

18:39

Bible so meaning God, but also, you know Moses for example did not intend It's viewing the

18:44

Old Testament through a lens and that lens makes things pop out that aren't necessarily there from a

18:50

Christian perspective Or they're in general. You mentioned Jungian. So you're referring to Carl Jung. Yes So in all transparency,

18:58

I have heard his name a lot I've seen I've heard his name mentioned in right alongside in Jordan Peter saying saying he's a huge influencer of him

19:07

Mm -hmm. That's about all I know, but I when I heard him last night Saying this is probably what he's talking about is related to Carl Jung influencing on him

19:16

Would like what do we know about Carl Jung? Like what are some of his like fundamental beliefs

19:22

Carl Jung was a oneist He was he was one of Peter Dr. Peter Jones's book the other worldview

19:29

Which came out on I think no, it wasn't on Ligonier, but I'll see Sproul. Yeah cover blur, but very

19:35

I'm reading it right now There's a whole big section about Carl Jung just how influential on The New Age, you know spiritual spirituality just how influential

19:44

Carl Jung was In fact, not like I was so convicted by reading this book and I this is true

19:50

I had spent a long time not knowing how I was able to describe my Religious beliefs.

19:56

I'm spiritual not religious. I'm New Age or whatever I never would have said that most people won't but as I look back on that 20 years

20:02

Which you and I have talked about a lot that 20 years in the New Age My Religious beliefs were actually

20:07

Jungian in nature. They that's that's what I was doing It's all about the development of the self all about inner discovery all about, you know fusing opposites, right all about essentially about one ism and so that was that really was

20:21

Jungianism would have been the closest thing that I had to a religion in the New Age and I think a lot of people in The New Age are the same.

20:26

I you know throwing in some buzzwords collective unconscious archetypes

20:31

Archetypes a shadow And in the case of Jordan Peterson order and chaos, oh, it's right and You know and then obviously the things he talked about last night there they're steeped in it

20:48

I remember his his series on Genesis on YouTube, it was like a

20:55

Lecture series, it's like maybe four maybe five and I think his most is most

21:06

I Guess researched book like his kind of Magnum opus so to speak is the book maps of meaning and that's kind of where that where his logo came from was from that book and That's that's kind of where he has.

21:21

I don't know. You've seen that little diagram that he's drawn, you know with the big The circle anyway, it's on the back that was on his jacket that he was wearing now, but there's a there's another diagram

21:30

He has where he's talking about like the the underworld into the the light world All this to say what he one of the things he says about the

21:39

Bible. That is interesting is that the

21:46

Bible is the Framing for all Western thought and has been for the last 2 ,000 years

21:53

True and and he is assigning the various symbolic Various symbols in the

22:00

Bible as Like how we think oh Is that okay?

22:08

so like the actual like mechanics of how we approach things how we view symbolism how we

22:17

How we actually think it's a hard thing to describe is mechanically mechanically is

22:26

It all comes from it all comes from the Bible that's really interesting and so he posits that it is

22:32

Genesis that is the the kind of the framework for How we as human beings think and have thought for the last 2 ,000 years so we've internalized the the stories of the book of Genesis and now that's

22:51

Describing literally how our brains work. Yes. Oh my goodness. Yeah So in other words with young and how you go well in other words, so never if you go inward and the whole idea is to go inward that Genesis according to Peterson and I'm just Trying to think the thing that's through is that he would see it not as like a linear

23:11

Story that begins at the fall begins a creation then goes into the fall. So it's in the beginning

23:17

God And then it works his way linearly all the way through to pointing to Christ anything about like Genesis 315 and the curse in the fall and the promise though of Christ who is going to cross the head of Satan says you see a lot but instead of that this is

23:32

Genesis of some sort of Some sort of I guess a topographical map of Inward into the human psyche like that's basic being goes.

23:42

It's that's what it is. I could not have said that better Yeah, Wow Bible not just Genesis, but really the whole

23:49

Bible right story, right which That and that's what his Bible lecture series was on YouTube.

23:56

Whatever that 2017 like he booked on a theater in Toronto just to see if people would be interested and I guess he sold out whatever all

24:03

Five or six nights. It's really okay. It's really cool to listen to that But the thing that the thing that's important to keep in mind is that this was 2016 2017

24:12

Pre -massive fame Jordan Peterson. Yes, right. And so this is a guy who's just kind of saying hey

24:18

Here's a way to understand these stories in a way that Can help inspire your life like understanding the way that he describes like Cain and Abel like Cain and Abel is probably the most

24:28

Watched episode of that series the most watched lecture because it kind of describes You know the notion of making sacrifices on behalf of the future that if you make a good sacrifice on behalf of the future

24:38

Your sacrifice will be accepted and you'll prosper and if you make a bad sacrifice on behalf of the future

24:43

You'll fall into chaos, right? And so people could listen to that lecture and be like, oh, yeah So if I work hard now,

24:50

I can have success in the future It's a really rudimentary idea, but it's cool to hear it described that way

24:56

And so there's a way in which there was an innocence to it Yeah, right where he was just this is this is a cool way to think about these things

25:02

I think is how it was presented It's now very different to be talking about the Bible on the stage that he has

25:09

Using the same framework like whatever we are seven years later, right? So at the time you can go back and listen to it and it comes across as like relatively harmless like okay

25:18

Yeah, I can apply this to my life cool but now to hear him talk about this stuff with we who wrestle with God as the

25:25

Cover of his book and stepping into this almost public theologian role.

25:30

It comes across very differently today Yeah, and this is very I feel like this is seeing him last time was the time

25:36

I saw him in a very different light than before and it's one of those things when you we all have our presuppositions

25:45

So when I think we have to do this when you think about wrestling with God like What what comes to mind like I think about actually?

25:56

wrestling as a Christian man, who's 42 almost 43 years old who's married who has a four -month -old and I'm juggling a lot of things on my plate

26:04

I'm by vocational with a guy of a couple other side hustles and things and I have a full -time job outside of this and trying

26:10

To doing all this but also trying to maintain a relationship with God. There's times where you have struggle

26:15

I think about having what do you like an actual crisis of faith? Like do I believe? Jesus is who he says he is

26:22

Like why do I hold to two genders versus going down a progressive

26:28

Christianity Like why do I believe what I believe like why do I? believe that the

26:33

Bible isn't Aaron is infallible in God's Word or why do I you know when I see people who suffer when

26:39

I see people who walk away from the faith and Wrestle through those things on my own personal struggles

26:45

But like going to God and like wrestling through that Like that's what I would see you as far as like wrestling with God Like what about you when you think like defining terms wrestling with God like what what sticks?

26:56

How would you define that? Well, I mean if I were to make an observation about Jordan Peterson it would seem to me that he's

27:08

He seems to be struggling with Christ and and kind of going back to what we had just been saying

27:14

This this idea that that the Bible is a blueprint for thought.

27:19

Yeah that this teaches us how to think You know there

27:27

Miracles happen in the Bible. Mm -hmm. You know Christ was raised from the dead

27:32

Yeah, and Elevated to the right hand of the Father Miracles death was defeated and and I would imagine that someone who maybe bases their life bases their career on on a very rational pursuit of Describing how this is a blueprint for how people think might struggle with that notion of This is a true thing that happened and miracles do exist and God is with us and he has power over our lives and he is sovereign and Praise him

28:16

So far as like, you know So it's this it's this this desire for rationality this pursuit of I have to have an answer and You know,

28:27

I don't want to speak for him But that that was something that came to my mind. Hmm What about you?

28:35

Well, I think sorry just remind me that Russell Russell with God like to fall like when you throw like when you hear that What's the first thing that comes to mind?

28:44

Like how do you define? How would you define that? How would you interpret that when someone says rest with God? Mm -hmm.

28:50

Well come to what's instinctively comes to mind me Joseph He chose and Jordan chose those words and that was gonna resonate with people right and it did

28:58

But yeah, I'm gonna jump ahead of myself. Yeah. Yeah. No, I the first thing that comes to mind is is the question why?

29:06

Why is this happening? Right. This is not the way that I wanted this to go or that I thought it was going to go

29:11

It's going a completely other way It's it's it's getting worse for reasons that are out of my control and I'm in pain and I'm afraid and I'm in despair

29:20

Why is this happening? Why is this happening God? That's the classic. That's what

29:25

I think of and and The end the answer to that question is wait on God this trust

29:32

God do not be afraid not despair And that's that's the answer but the classic wrestling is like is is to wrestle with the meaning of suffering

29:39

That's what I think of it's like we who wrestle with God we wrestle with the meaning of our own suffering Right, and if we believe in God and we suffer then why is there suffering

29:48

God the Odyssey and all that? So that's that's what I think of. Hmm. What's up, everybody?

29:53

It's the super sleuth here letting you know that you can go to shop cultish .com and get all of our exclusive cultish merch

29:59

There's the bad theology hurts people shirt Jerry wears it all the time I wear it all the time sometimes we wear it at the same time without even trying to have that happen on the show and we're just like whoa

30:09

You're wearing the shirt. I'm wearing the shirt. You could wear the shirt, too Go to shop cultish .com today and get your exclusive cultish merch.

30:16

Talk to you later guys. Yeah, and so jumping into last night There it joy is interesting

30:24

Jordan Peterson's son came out his talented musician Julian, yeah Yeah, he didn't play a couple songs.

30:30

I Enjoyed I enjoyed the tunes. Mm -hmm. I like the cover of Simon and Garfunkel. That was nice. That was cool.

30:35

And then Jordan Peterson's daughter Michaela came out and talked for a little bit

30:41

We might I'm gonna bring up what she's talked about in a second But what was just interesting is that Jordan came out?

30:47

Started talking and I'm thinking wrestling with God and I've heard him kind of give a lot of the psychoanalysis and those things

30:54

Were there's always been very interesting hearing those Perspectives. Mm -hmm, and it's about 40 minutes in and honestly internally.

31:02

I was really struggling to kind of put it together Yeah, my wait a minute. Okay, this is where's how does

31:10

God fit into this because I've heard you a lot of Internalizing psychoanalyzing different people different type of behaviors.

31:16

What makes you do what you do? He gave this illustration of going on a date

31:23

If was a meeting someone in a restaurant and whether or not how you wanted to carry this for lamb sort of spoiler alert

31:30

He probably does a different lecture and every time. Yeah, it changes every single time but he was basically giving this analysis that if I Versus do

31:39

I want to? Pursue the relationship in a way to where you want to find if you have enough stuff in common to see if it goes somewhere maybe even marriage or What if you want to just see if you want to listen to like a one -night stand?

31:52

and if you are if you're trying to get that situation if you're trying to get the environment to go in the situation where you

31:59

Can have the one -night stand and just go off and do your thing. Are you somehow? Compromising like your true self that it seemed to be what he was on some level saying strange

32:08

It's strange and interesting, but I was wondering okay What does this have to do? What does it have to do with wrestling with God because it was so much internal.

32:17

I don't think it really did Yeah psychoanalysis, but it was only about 50 minutes in where he finally mentioned

32:24

Genesis 2 I'm like, oh a Bible verse about verse maybe maybe I'm on to something And that's where Maybe what you were saying earlier about the the young in how it's about this

32:35

Internal like looking inward how it's this psychoanalysis where he's a one -nest where I guess that would make sense where he sees the

32:43

Old Testament at just this Internal psychoanalysis, so everything from I mean,

32:49

I haven't listened to all of his lectures But I guess a lot of the other stories are just not biblical

32:55

I'm not I mean, they're not historical accounts or linear that points in the holes historical arc of redemption these are all just ways to understand a story as a topical map to look look inward and psychoanalyze ourselves and seems it seems the exact opposite of what of everything

33:16

I know as a Christian about what I truly do to find myself is that my Understanding of myself hasn't been a byproduct of looking inward there's sometimes where maybe there's some things that have

33:28

Maybe explained a little bit about me and who I am and why I do that the things that I do but the biggest things that as a

33:35

Christian man that have explained me and define who I am is by doing the exact opposite of What Peterson which is like looking outward and not just looking outward to some sort of generic?

33:47

Theistic deity I'm talking about looking outward to the transcendent right triune

33:52

God father son and Holy Spirit and being defined by that not but and yeah,

33:59

I have yeah, so I just I that's what I'm just grasping is trying to make sense of like where What is it?

34:08

What does he actually mean by Russell with God? What does he mean? What is yeah? What does he mean? well, so I looked up the

34:15

So they had they had the book is pre -order now on Amazon, right? And so I scanned the

34:20

QR code and went to Amazon I read the description of the book and so that in the description of the book, it's all the same

34:27

Bible stories from the Old Testament that he references so like Abraham Moses right so he talks about he did a whole series

34:36

I think I was on daily wire about Exodus sort of psychologizing Exodus, right? That was not as successful or popular as his

34:43

Genesis But it's the same kind of thing and Sean and I on the way out. We're saying what it feels like he's doing

34:48

He's going back to like 2017 2018 Jordan Peterson who became very successful because he took pragmatic and practical

34:58

Grounded like self -help life advice primarily for men, but for everybody Fusing it with some familiar

35:04

Bible stories and wisdom with sort of like this fatherly Kind of feeling right and so what makes it special like grounded and practical life advice with a fatherly feeling

35:15

Itself is not special, right? That's fine. But when you inject the Bible into that Suddenly naturally everyone's ears kind of perk up for a number of different reasons one because we don't hear much about it in the public

35:27

Square anymore but also because it's so culturally familiar to so many people in this kind of like We went to church growing up because we were nominal

35:34

Christians We don't really know what it's about. And now someone's telling us something in a way that's relevant So he's kind of activating all these nominal

35:40

Christians. Yeah, so that is what made him initially very popular And he got away from that for a number of different reasons

35:48

And now I think he's circling back to that and and trying that same approach again

35:54

But even back then it wasn't super Christian and it's approach like it was still

36:00

Psychologizing the Old Testament like okay, cool. We can look at Cain and Abel, but like are you gonna psychologize

36:05

Isaiah? Right. Yeah. Okay, we can do Job. Cool. But what about the

36:11

Psalms? What about Proverbs, right? These do not present themselves as psychological metaphors, right?

36:16

So just picking out some familiar Bible stories that everyone knows and turning them into into psychological metaphors.

36:22

Yeah, that's very cool But like it denies the entire way the Bible presents itself Particularly the

36:27

New Testament which we can get to hmm You have any thoughts on that Sean? Yeah, I it seemed like he had been kind of treading over familiar territory a familiar ground last night it seemed, you know talking about the

36:46

What's the phrase the five personality traits Agreeableness. Yeah And then he and then he talks about the the dark triad and then the dark tetrad which

36:56

I wasn't familiar with okay Yeah, it isn't me. Yeah. Yeah, that was a new one and And so, okay, this is familiar

37:04

I've heard this before and okay and the Genesis 2 stuff and the Cain and Abel stuff. It just seemed very familiar and in it in the beginning when the when the show when the lights dimmed and the show was about to start before his

37:17

Son came out. Mm -hmm. There was um, there was a little some some advertising.

37:23

Mm -hmm some marketing Mm -hmm, so he's got his he's got his new. Oh, yeah app the essay thing

37:29

Kind of neat, you know all that and then he's got his his university His online, you know lecture style right

37:37

University that he's got that he's got cooked up. And so You know like he's he's in business, yeah, he's he's a you know, this was a sold -out show last night when we went last year

37:50

It was a sold -out show like will blow up when it comes out and it's gonna sell and he's gonna do great and all that Stuff so this it's you know, if I were to like, you know

38:01

You know make it maybe a trite observation This seems you know, he's going back to old familiar territory to maybe something that's a little bit more marketable after You know, maybe having a little bit of a rocky start at the

38:16

Daily Wire. Mm -hmm, right. That's right I do think it is important to kind of point out You know

38:21

Jordan Peterson He was an addict You know, he he had a big falling out after 12 rules for life came out and he was doing the the global Tour his wife got sick his daughter.

38:40

Yeah, like and he'd been he had been like hanging on for dear life

38:47

You know taking copious amounts of benzos, mm -hmm and and it it dramatically affected his health, you know, he had to go into inpatient and and do all that stuff and And he came out of it and I distinctly remember when when we saw him last year

39:06

He seemed Weathered by that Seemed like he you know, like it was still something that he was recovering from and I think he had been recently brought on to the

39:19

Daily Wire Something like that probably relatively long. Yeah. Yeah, this was 2022.

39:25

We saw him just before the 2022 election. Yeah. Yeah and so You know, he had his new team

39:33

You know, he had his he had his is he had the Daily Wire now he wasn't going alone which he had been before and and so You know, these are just my observations.

39:45

I'm not, you know, necessarily making a judgment call per se But this this definitely seemed like a more grounded.

39:53

Mm -hmm healthier You know, he was cracking jokes. Yeah, no like shot

39:58

He was sharp a little long -winded but that's you know who he is, you know He's got he's got his personality and all this to say he was he was a much more on on On -form last night and so yeah coming back to familiar territory

40:14

Bringing some of this old stuff up kind of putting it in a little bit of a nice tighter package

40:19

Getting ready to reduce put out a book you know, it's you know, he

40:26

He's probably got a marketing department behind him. You know, he's a business unto himself. Yeah point.

40:31

Yeah He's this was this was an operation for sure so one thing I just want to bring up to would be a distinction that I noticed again at last night and this this actually might be a spoiler alert because Mikayla Peterson she came up going back to her.

40:46

She come up to introduce her dad Jordan and She shared something And I'm sharing this good side.

40:53

I didn't I didn't have to write a non -disclosure agreement. Nothing like that On you Yes, but she came up there and she sort of was talking about, you know, her dad her dad's work

41:06

I've always been I've always had Always been somewhat admirable just seeing the relationship between the both of them

41:14

There is there is an aspect speaking positively Jordan talking about, you know, wisdom is justified by by her children and just seeing the fact

41:22

That both of his children introduced the show there's plenty of people who are sort of very notable people but their kids are in all sorts of different chaos and that seems to Be but not him like that.

41:35

They were just right alongside them. I really admired that Yeah, his son Julian avoided the spotlight for a very long time

41:41

Like it was known that he had a son but like whereas Michaela was more of a public person Yeah, it was really cool to see

41:46

Julian Peterson Yes out and play guitar and he was obvious on the promo for essay the essay app with his dad like that Yeah, it was nice to see that Yeah And I've only known

41:55

Michaela through her voice by way of a lot time She'll introduce the podcast the Jordan Peterson podcast of her a lot heard her a lot of times in there

42:03

But she was sort of sharing with all of us how she's like I haven't shared this with anyone

42:08

I haven't put this on YouTube. This is my first time saying it but like two weeks ago

42:15

Like I've always had it's only like faith has been and God has always sort of been this up -and -down

42:21

Thing for me and she basically said two weeks ago. I got saved

42:26

As I had an experience. Yeah saved Yeah I had an experience of being saved and she

42:32

Described and where I'm going to this is that she described it she only talked for about three or four minutes is very concise and to the point and She said it had to do with her

42:42

Trying to grasp and understand the Trinity talking it over with her husband and then at through that process there became the sudden awareness of Her sin and then all of a sudden this awareness all of a sudden this transcendent joy

42:57

Okay And of course we could have our you know, there's a willing skepticism when it comes to any sort of celebrity conversion

43:03

But the reality is there was a very similarity between if you know about Blaise Pascal's conversion about when he came to Christ There's almost a very similar thing about how

43:13

I talked about this Overwhelming joy this awareness of his sin and it was related to an understanding of the

43:19

Trinity if I'm not mistaken He had this parchment on the you had this sudden realization. He wrote this testimony put on the inside of his

43:26

Suit coat. It was a really crazy story but I saw I remember feeling a similarity with this and where I'm going with this is that She talked about three or four minutes and I felt like I got more

43:38

Understanding and relatability with what she said in about two or three minutes You know in contrast, you know to the hour and a half in which

43:47

Jordan Peterson spoke Oh, um, and the only reason why I say that is because There is the points of reference of what actually means to wrestle with God and go through those things

43:56

I could relate to wrestling with the Trinity. Hmm. I can then trying to figure that out

44:02

I can relate to having those moments of That sort of joy like of Being in fellowship with God and realizing you have this relationship with the creator of the universe.

44:13

I can relate to having this transcendent view of the understanding of my wickedness and sin

44:19

I struggle for 40 for the first 45 minutes of Jordan's talk trying to grasp or make sense of all this inward psychoanalysis and how that had to do with Wrestling with God we who wrestle with Jordan Peterson.

44:36

Yes. I was wrestling with Jordan Peterson Yeah, no that was a that was a beautiful moment that she shared and I'm glad you pointed that out

44:44

I Especially about Pascal because it reminds me of CS Lewis. It's a

44:50

CS Lewis book surprised by joy I think he was what he was at the top of the hill He was in like the sidecar of a motorcycle or something like that and by the bottom of the hill

44:57

He was Christian or something. Yeah, something like that. And so it was very touching to hear to hear her say that Particularly because there are a lot of you know celebrity

45:07

Conversions that appear to be happening right now or people who are dancing around it So it was nice to hear that moment of sincerity

45:13

There have been very some very controversial ones on Twitter that I don't want to mention so but it is it was nice to feel that moment of a real humility like I didn't get it and Then suddenly

45:23

I understood that I didn't have to understand everything. Yeah, I think is what she said Wow, like for anybody like you went beyond yourself.

45:32

Yeah, right That's that's a very special moment for anybody and however, it shows up. So I really I really appreciated that.

45:38

Hmm. Yeah yeah, and so I think What are some of the areas that?

45:45

because I saw the areas in which are just Trying it. It's there's this struggle that I have listening to Jordan is

45:56

That I feel like I'm agreeing and disagreeing with him at the same time Right the ones in the audience

46:02

I'm I'm looking at You're just some of the notes I took because I have a hard time taking notes and paying attention at the same time

46:08

I'm just kind of high roll But um, you wanted the bullet points you put down woods was something that he said

46:14

Throughout his talk and he said you develop a philosophy of evil. That's as deep as your sin oh,

46:21

I know I was just like and I like there's on surface level that seems very deep and Intellectual, but my question is okay,

46:32

Jordan. How are you defining? How are you defining evil? Yeah And for you like what is even sin to you right like and then who is and that's the case

46:43

Like what are you doing with your sin? Yeah, like what are you doing with Jesus? Like I know the is the reason why you're on this far end the whole

46:52

Testament and you're staying here because you don't want to Deal with him. Like are you just staying there? It's like you're kicking the can down the road

46:58

That's like what's how is he defining those terms? I mean, I I entered a question, you know, you could submit a question

47:04

Yeah, I plugged one in and this is my this is my question for Jordan Peterson always so Jordan if you're listening, dr

47:10

Peterson if you're listening, this is my question So you've done a brilliant job of Looking at Genesis and Exodus and sort of psychologizing the

47:18

New Testament and examining the mythological psychological dimensions I get that but I would really like him to engage with the

47:25

New Testament For what it presents itself as eyewitness accounts of historical events

47:32

Right, like you read the book of John, right? I was there. This is John like I was there

47:37

I was on Jesus's bosom. I wrote all this down so that you might believe There's nothing to there's no metaphor in here

47:43

This this is this is my personal testimony of the being the man who

47:48

Jesus loved Mm -hmm, right like engage with that seriously, like what happens when you do that, right?

47:55

I think it would be profoundly confronting because you can't wipe it away You can't you can't psychologize the thing of the confrontation with the

48:02

Pharisees, you know Lazarus Mary and Martha, you know the the in the upper room with the disciples

48:08

You can't you can't wash this boys washing their feet. You can't just look at these as psychological processes

48:14

These are historical events. Jesus Christ was an actual historical person. He was actually historically crucified, right?

48:21

These things happened God entered into history. You can't say well, this is in the deep past and people are looking at it as a metaphor

48:28

It's like okay so if you want to make that claim that Genesis and Exodus shaped the way that we see the world They become a topography a topographical map within our own minds then

48:38

Even more powerfully is Jesus Christ. Mm -hmm Even more powerfully of like is the

48:44

Gospels themselves. How would they shape our mind? So when you try and confront it, but they're not presenting themselves as mythology.

48:51

These are historical events So please engage with the New Testament for what it is

48:56

And I think that'll be so much more powerful as powerful as so much of his stuff is Engaging with the

49:02

New Testament that way I think will be more powerful for him and for everybody. Yeah Yeah, and just so we're gonna piggyback off of that.

49:08

I mean he mentioned so much about the different metaphors You know, everything's just this metaphor to go into yours like it's good to go inward

49:16

But even look at what look at how Jesus uses this uses the Old Testament. That's right He doesn't use it as some sort of young in metaphor.

49:24

He uses it as a historical account I mean, there's one moment where it's such a weird time that we're in like there's this one moment last night

49:31

I mean Jordan Peterson. He was so Daring when he actually said in a public atmosphere.

49:36

There's two genders Everyone's like pauses gasps and like claps like this is now the brave thing to acknowledge that right

49:47

Right, but here Jesus Jordan entering the political sphere, right? But um, you know steps into the pool, yeah

49:55

Yeah But he mentions it's a Malik Matthew 19 for when Jesus says have you not read?

50:01

He replied that at the beginning of the Creator made them male and female like he sees that like Christ Appeals to the

50:10

Old Testament is God's Word and he quotes with authority not as some very Principle like he or some young in principle.

50:17

He quotes it as the historical Theano sauce Word of God Yes as the authority and he says that definitively like that's that's the across -the -board standard

50:27

So I guess my question is is that if everything is the sort of metaphorical principle where you just go inward like one ism makes like that worldview distinct makes no distinction between like male and female like one of the reasons why we're having all the

50:44

Of the issues with trenches or ism is because we're going into a postmodern neo -pagan worldview.

50:51

That's a direct part of one ism Where are you trying to? Have one ism or are you for distinctions like within the presuppositions of that worldview?

51:02

well, I mean, I don't know I Would be very interested to know if Jordan Peterson has encountered.

51:10

Dr Peter -jones's work or would understand the difference fundamentally between one is a versus to ism creator versus, you know

51:17

Versus creation versus all is one I wonder if he'd encounter that that was certainly what

51:22

Carl Jung believed and the and the big Deception of Carl Jung is that if you want to go looking for truth truth is not out there

51:31

Truth is not out there in the world truth is within you So you go within yourself and within your subconscious are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

51:39

Yeah about yourself and the past and the future and transcendence It's all inside you and you have to do all these different things to get at yourself inside To release the truth that's within it within you, right?

51:50

And so I lived that way for a very long time In fact, it's very interesting to reflect back on when I encountered Jordan Peterson in 2017

51:57

There was not a thought in my mind at that time that I would ever become Christian Yeah, it was not in my mind. Mm -hmm

52:02

And I remember really enjoying the stuff they had talked about and getting a lot from his Bible lectures and now to be able to fast forward within my own mind seven years into the future and to have read these stories myself and You have read the

52:13

Bible with Christian eyes, right It's so much more powerful

52:19

Than even he knows and is the way that he's presenting it So I'd be interested to see like if you were given these tools to think about this.

52:25

Yeah What would what would what would happen for a man like that? It'd be my question. Yeah Yeah, and I think like one of the areas to where even as he went further along and it kind of like towards the

52:40

The end of his lecture and it might have been one of the Q &A's where he ultimately talked about When it came to forgiveness, like how do you truly forgive?

52:49

How you practice forgiveness and then he brought the fact that will ultimately Like a big part of it all it comes down to whether or not you can truly for like forgive yourself

52:58

Mm -hmm, and it's like well if you understand like the actually encompassing like Christian worldview

53:04

Like that's I don't want that responsibility. Like that's way of that's way above my pay grade.

53:09

Mm -hmm. Like I don't want I don't want that and so that that's just one of those things like I just it's

53:18

Sometimes it's like I said, it seems that he's there but then he puts all the reliance on Of the type of person that you're supposed to be like it's on you.

53:32

It all comes back on you Yes, so there is sort of this when it comes down to it There's sort of like work salvation like it sounds very great and it's inspiring because he's appealing towards a lot of things

53:43

Like I I walked away With a lot of good like a lot positive takeaways. I thought about ways

53:48

I can be, you know, better father for You know my son, you know, like whenever I've heard

53:54

George Peterson talk about the parents relationships with children and makes Such an it always has had emphasis about just how much your behavior and in your words matter and how much children observe you

54:04

And I've realized just how important that is and so like I think that's like a very positive thing, but Then when he is talking about there's a moment where he talks about And I just have your notes or I remember this he talked about bearing your cross up the hill of sacrifice

54:22

Because the world depends on like your aim Like he took this moment where he talks about you either become

54:30

Order or chaos so Abel was order Cain was chaos and How somehow that you going to order that's you bearing your cross?

54:42

And just working hard and like toiling but in all that it's great

54:47

You're using there's all this Christian like terminology and lingo But that's work and toil and What you're leaving out is

54:59

The God man who says come to me you who are weary laden, and I will give you rest Like that's that's where I mean there is

55:08

I don't know that mean there is hard work that has to be done But you have to have Christ as the ultimate like focal point as like the ground from which to go

55:17

And I as much as I appreciate so much of what George Peterson talks about was even saying last night

55:24

It's just I see a lot of this being a house being built on the sand.

55:29

Yeah any thoughts Yeah, the the works -based stuff does ring true to me

55:43

You know I mean speaking for myself. It was definitely something that That you know connected a lot with me

55:51

The previous years back Yeah, I wonder

55:58

I wonder what he What's holding him back? I wonder what is kind of keeping him from doing from from kind of really challenging these thoughts

56:12

I Don't know I want to talk about the forgiveness thing for a second if we can because I remember that that really stood out to me

56:19

Someone asked it was a question that was submitted from the audience How do you forgive somebody and let something go without being a martyr was the question yeah, and It was a it was almost it was a really heartbreaking

56:32

It was a really heartbreaking question because it was clearly coming from a secular or at least non -christian worldview

56:39

Because in the Christian worldview you just forgive them like I don't want to make it sound

56:44

Easier than it is because forgiveness can be hard, but like you forgive because you've been forgiven

56:51

You've been forgiven for your countless sins And so if someone sinned against you you forgive them like it's not it's not easy but at the same time like Forgiveness doesn't make you a martyr like you that the question didn't seem to imply

57:07

How do I forgive someone to not let it happen again? It was like it was almost like it was almost like the question was asking

57:14

If I forgive some if I forgive somebody how is that me not just like taking it right?

57:20

And like and I can understand how someone in a secular world could be thinking that way But from within the

57:25

Christian world is if someone wrongs you you you forgive them. You don't let them do it again That doesn't mean you have to allow yourself to be victimized

57:32

But like you you forgive them and you let it go and we're called to do that as Christians to give it up You know to Christ because we have been forgiven and we don't have to worry about it anymore

57:42

And so I felt I really felt in that moment because this person was crying out for really theological moral relief and and the response

57:54

Did not does not set them free Right. It's it's not doesn't liberate you to I don't remember what answer he gave

58:01

But I remember being very troubled like this person is in pain Wondering how they can really let something go and they don't have anyone to let it go to you

58:09

Just cast it out there into the universe. I know Cast your concerns on Christ, right?

58:15

And and so I remember That particularly because forgiveness is part of everybody's life and me learning to do that Progressively through the things of my past is like forgiving people as I have been forgiven asking for forgiveness as well

58:28

I think it's just so much more powerful within a Christian worldview and my people are crying out for that Not for psychology because psychology

58:36

I think is it is a dead end It's a good ends up only in you right and I don't want to be the end of all things

58:42

Yeah, I did like how he said he talked a lot about sacrifice and And how important that is particularly with regard to Cain and Abel and he said

58:52

I really like this He said crucifixion is the ultimate sacrifice of both son and self.

58:58

I Really? I did think that was really interesting that that Christ sacrifice models

59:04

Abraham and Isaac right but then also greater love hath no one than this than to lay down his life for his friends

59:10

So sacrifice of self, right? So I really thought that was an interesting fusion that he came up with like wow

59:15

That is the ultimate sacrifice like you sacrifice what's most precious to you and you also sacrifice yourself at the same time

59:20

I thought that was I thought yeah, pretty cool. Yeah, but even even with something like that He's using those if he is using those parallels again.

59:29

He's using this as Metaphors to go inward and psychoanalyze yourself personal development where whereas true yeah, true, but whereas like when you actually look at the real concept of forgiveness like you're looking at the

59:45

The sacrifices that happen like in the Old Testament that were all and appealing to the ultimate sacrifice landsling for the foundation of the world when

59:53

Christ actually came and like was the perfect sacrifice and it's because of His completed work when it comes to forgiveness

01:00:02

And I mean there's a whole conversation to about like about like boundaries and who you allow and just because you forgive

01:00:08

Someone doesn't mean you get to have Let them do Whatever they want to do and that's a whole nother conversation

01:00:15

But like having that as the point of reference like that's where that's the only place

01:00:22

I think you mentioned earlier about having the about the what was the question that was phrased about how it

01:00:28

When it when it comes to forgiven at the part the question verse the question someone asked about forgiveness

01:00:33

How do I forgive and without being a martyr without being a martyr because they're talking about the cost that it comes because forgiveness comes

01:00:39

At a cost and I think like there is a part of it though with people a lot of times when you don't forgive

01:00:45

There's a cost that comes along as well, which is holding on to it That's holding on to a root of bitterness

01:00:51

And the only thing that has ever helped me get past those moments of like anger bitterness resentment is

01:00:59

Giving it to God repenting of it Confessing, you know the areas in which I've held on to his sin.

01:01:06

Yep, and just on my own strength and say Lord I Can't of my own let this go help me because I can't

01:01:14

I can't do this on my own And just and there's times where I've had to like literally do this

01:01:21

Multiple times and just give it to God over and over and over again That wasn't a that wasn't any giant psychoanalysis.

01:01:29

That was just me That's right looking to the Lord and like repenting of my sin. Mm -hmm.

01:01:35

And I Guess my Jeremiah's on fire as much as like I said,

01:01:42

I did walk away a lot of positive things is that I saw

01:01:48

What everything that he's talking about the things we need to go through to find redemptive according to Peterson's redemptive arc that's

01:01:59

That's way above my pay grade. That's that's doing that's way above what I'm able to do

01:02:05

That's right where I have the physicality to do you know like, you know, like when you and I will be trained together once or twice a week and I know that you're pushing.

01:02:16

I'm getting better every single week as I progress along as I'm getting back in shape But there are certain stuff I seen your gym.

01:02:21

That's like no, I'm not ready for that. I Might actually be to be surprised.

01:02:27

I might be too old for that Yeah, but I just I would see all of if all every piece of your equipment in your gym

01:02:38

Like just came together and molded together like Megatron like into one piece of weighted workout equipment all together

01:02:48

That's that's the layout plan of what I would have. That's that's what I see this type of the burden a yoke

01:02:54

Then I would see of having to go through everything that what he was saying last night of how

01:03:00

I have to Save myself and redeem myself. That's right If ultimately if it all ends between your ears, yeah, right

01:03:09

That's a very hard prison to escape from if it's all on you if the world depends that's the thing that he closed on yeah, the world depends on your aim and and that I Think I originally heard that and this is actually really interesting because it relates to sort of some of the things that fit that went into my original explorations of masculinity and all of that was

01:03:33

I there was a time where I really believed that this sort of Masculine Renaissance was going to save the world wasn't Christian at the time, but it was like my own kind of form of idolatry, right?

01:03:41

I didn't know whether that's what I was doing. But like I look back on the now is like wow No, it's not gonna that's not gonna save the world.

01:03:48

Christ is gonna save the world, right? Yeah, right, but in the same way when Jordan Peterson who was part of this masculinity kind of movement, right?

01:03:55

Saying like one of the one of the biggest names certainly is saying the world depends on your aim

01:04:01

I heard that as like, you know, your aim is consequential you matter Right, and that's

01:04:06

I think that's a true statement. We do matter but the world doesn't depend on my aim, right?

01:04:12

That's a little like if you if you take it just for the raw content of that like it doesn't actually depend on my aim

01:04:18

I'm not that big of a deal. I'm not the guy who saves the world. I'm not the guy who forgives my own sins, right?

01:04:24

I'm not the guy responsible for all this but that's ultimately what Jungianism does that folds in on the self and Locates the self as a source of all truth forgiveness knowledge power, etc it all comes from you and that's

01:04:40

I mean When you give that a biblical spin You know that gets a little muddy a little muddy a little

01:04:48

Dangerous actually people start claiming biblical truth is their authority to begin doing things in their own self -interest.

01:04:55

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I Will say you know just a caveat to this

01:05:01

You know, it was it was Jordan Peterson that got me to get my first Bible that's right

01:05:08

I don't want to ask you about that. I know it was it was a King James Where's James White Yeah, I like King James.

01:05:19

Yeah, that's good. I and and It it

01:05:25

His work More than anything as far as my own

01:05:32

Coming to Christ and and growth and in my sanctification and all of that I Would say it was it was what?

01:05:47

Kind of kind of started the path in Understanding that God's Word is divine that it is without equal in This world that there is nothing created by man that can rival it that it is the ultimate source of truth and I knew nothing about Presuppositional ism.

01:06:13

I knew nothing. I just knew that this was God's Word and it was the truth and I'd like to know what it says and that was what

01:06:24

Kind of like if I were like taking the the baby steps out of agnosticism The Jordan Peterson provided that amazing

01:06:34

And that's why this conversation is so complicated is that in and amongst the things that he says that are obviously that are off Yeah, right

01:06:43

And I think he's sincere. Yeah, I don't think he's actively I've been in this argument with people like oh

01:06:48

He's some sort of you know plant or whatever I'm like look if the man's acting like there's some guy as Smart as he presents himself as that would mean there's a smarter guy somewhere else in his mind

01:07:01

Inception levels of genius, you know That's not of those works a benzo addiction kind of a gets gets that argument

01:07:10

That's right. Yeah, and out of the way and he could still and he could still function while he was doing it, too Yeah, so so in I think he's very sincere about the things that he says that that was what comes across He's obviously off and a lot of things that he says like in that in that kind of way

01:07:24

That's like it's so close and yet so far at the same time Yeah, and on top of all of that he has clearly benefited so many men so many women

01:07:34

So many people Sean and myself included right where it's just like he's made a huge impact on people's lives

01:07:40

For the positive and that's we wanted to talk about the crowd Let's talk about the crowd because there were people there shouting like I love you

01:07:47

Jordan Like you can feel in the room the reverence that people have for him

01:07:52

Like it was it was very genuine all walks of life You know that I think the crowd was younger this time than it was last time for some reason may could be just a perceptual

01:08:00

Thing but like there was real love and reverence for him in there and appreciation for him sincere appreciation.

01:08:06

Mm -hmm. Yeah yeah, and in fact, um, you know, one of the things to like This is it

01:08:13

It's interesting because I mean if we're giving cover thoughts in this talk that Jordan Peterson gave and this is by no means an overarching

01:08:21

In -depth full analysis of Jordan Peterson like this is just I was kind of giving our thoughts really this is us

01:08:26

Externally process. Yeah seeing him talk this guy who's become this sort of noble guy from nowhere to becoming his huge prominent figure and Like what

01:08:39

I saw last night was almost like a weird caricature of If you think like Solomon and when he prayed to God for wisdom

01:08:48

You got said if they didn't give me anything and I'll ask for anything He asked for wisdom and he was given this amazing gift of wisdom and riches and One of the things that happened throughout

01:08:59

Solomon's life I always been fascinated by this was his relationship with the Queen of Sheba Mm -hmm and how she came to all with all these different wealth and riches and everything in that time that'd be accumulated of you know your stocks and your you know your portfolio analysis and laid it all down just so she could sit for a little bit and Here's Solomon's wisdom.

01:09:21

Mm -hmm. And so you have the same thing you do you have a couple thousand people and I was like man this is you know, we pay like a hundred plus bucks for like our tickets and And then, you know, so the people up close to get people who pay for VIP like this is the same thing

01:09:34

People are paying, you know a couple hundred bucks just for an hour and a half to hear

01:09:40

Peterson just sort of externalize his thought process. That's really what it is It's the exact same thing and I know

01:09:47

I now I understand like what was actually going on I picked up on that like an hour into the oh, that's why we're here.

01:09:54

That's why people are paying for that But um, it's just it's just incredibly interesting to see the incisional like the hunger that people have for truth, but also the hunger for the transcendent that people have and I think that's indicative when you even look at the whole one is

01:10:11

Neopagan and all the stuff that we dealt with a cultist like you see people Wanting that to reach out beyond into the transcendence, but as a late dr

01:10:22

Walter Martin said, you know in one of his closing prayers after one of his lectures He said, you know people are says they are telling us to Reach out beyond talking about all the all the people of his time that the wisdom of the world

01:10:35

Tells us a transcendent to reach out beyond but he says but you've told us to draw near to you

01:10:42

That's a fundamental. That's the fundamental distinction that I see, but I also see God's sovereignty of how

01:10:49

Sometimes you look at Peterson again who so he there's so many years in which he says stuff where he's right and he's on but there's areas in which he is just so off but You think about God's sovereignty and I I felt

01:11:03

I I kind of felt this last night and I was thinking about it today I was at work is that like I'm looking at Michaela who for all intents and purposes has this childlike faith

01:11:15

Who's just two weeks and I'm figuring out this thing and Elvis understands the Trinity and her sin and all that What if that's an angle that God could eventually doing work right then and there this is two weeks ago as He's rest coming out with the wrestle with God.

01:11:31

Maybe she's gonna start seeing things in a more linear Transcendent way.

01:11:36

She was transcending looking. Well, she was going X transcend looking out actually to God Versus where he is still trying to go in and in and in Mmm, so it just that seemed to be kind of this interesting parallel and like one of the other things

01:11:49

I read this book years ago. I can't remember the author, but it was by a Christian Counselor, I think it may have been

01:11:56

David Paltrop or Ted trip one of the trip brothers But it was a book called how people change and in this book.

01:12:02

He talked about What's the focus of how we really change as people who are Christians like as you know dealing with a lot of the same issues that Peterson would talk about and One of the things that he said is that all of our actions of who we are in the like Who like who are we do we look internally?

01:12:21

Do we look at externally, but he made a point Where he said this is not

01:12:26

Jordan Peterson, but David Paltrop or Ted trip wanted to say one of the trip brothers he said our Hope in the future our focus on where we are in the future and where we are headed

01:12:36

Our hope in the future changes who we are in the present And our hope in the future changes who we are in the present.

01:12:44

Yes, amen, right? And so but this is the pair then this is the scripture that he used And this is first John chapter 3 and I'll just all kind of rub up here

01:12:52

He says see what kind of love the Father has given us that we should be called children of God And so we are the reason the world does not know us is because they did not know him beloved

01:13:04

We are God's children now and what we will be has not yet appeared but when he appears we shall be like him because we shall see him as he is and Everyone in hope has this hope purifies himself

01:13:21

Just as he is pure So the whole everything that we're dealing with the the whole the real transformation from our past from our traumas from you know dysfunctional homes from fathers who walked away from you know, you name it and like Looking to Christ and seeing him seeing in part knowing the one way one day

01:13:45

You're gonna be separated from all that and you're gonna see Christ Face -to -face and he's gonna wipe every tear away from your eye and that ultimately you don't have to look and psychoanalysis

01:13:56

Psychoanalysis psychoanalyze yourself for the next or even pronounce it correctly Mm -hmm, you know for a while like you can look to him and not worry about this and take this burden off of you like that's that's the hope of the gospel that's where I kind of thinking about The his whole talk

01:14:16

I was like man, I want you to find rest Peterson like you're not there like don't

01:14:23

Don't stay like this may be a where you're arriving like you're this is maybe where you're gonna camp out for a while But don't stay here because you're not gonna find rest and people are

01:14:33

I think I'm gonna read the book Sure, I know it up to give commentary because I went and saw him talk

01:14:39

I gave my time just as much as he gave his time. Mm -hmm, but um, yeah, like I see a lot of people who are going to Eat up this book and read it but are going to go it like after all that and still be left wanting well,

01:14:54

I think I love what you said there because I think We're seeing a lot of people now

01:15:01

And I think the book will be a success because we're seeing a lot of people in culture wrestle with wrestle with God Particularly around the notion of like this word trauma

01:15:10

We see it a lot, you know, right and people and really the meaning of trauma is why why did this happen to me?

01:15:17

Right and and as as far and culture provides an answer like it provides lots of different answers

01:15:24

Why do people go to ayahuasca? Why do people go to Jungian therapy? Why do they do any of the New Age stuff? A lot of it is for personal betterment or which really ends up being healing trauma right and in that because I think in a lot of ways and this is something that I'm I'm Working on right now.

01:15:41

I think the American Evangelical Church has withdrawn from the conversation has withdrawn from notions of forgiveness

01:15:48

Has we're not withdrawn from notions of sin has and repentance has withdrawn from notions of God's sovereignty that these things that happen are designed to bring you closer to God if you

01:16:00

Can see them that way and instead people are turning to pagan practices to find relief anything

01:16:05

I can do to find relief from my pain and Jordan Peterson offers that he's one of many that offers that and I think that Jordan Peterson is a call

01:16:14

For the American Evangelical Church to step more boldly into the breach and to start talking about Here's how you can actually be relieved of the burdens that you are carrying.

01:16:24

You're not gonna find the answer in psychology You're not gonna find it in mystical practices.

01:16:29

You're only gonna find it in Christ. My life is a testament to that I spent 20 years doing all kinds of New Age stuff like we've talked about a lot of it, right?

01:16:38

All kinds of time money energy, etc What I have found in three and a half years of being

01:16:45

Christian Right and really only like the past couple years since coming to Apologia really have

01:16:50

I really been seriously focusing on it? I found more transformation relief healing and freedom in two years of I don't want to say doing nothing

01:16:59

But like just sanctification Right scripture reading prayer going to church like which is free

01:17:06

Right, I found more healing doing that in two years than I ever did in 20 years of New Age stuff at the at the

01:17:14

Very extreme limits of doing it as well. And so I think that Jordan Peterson is is responding to a call

01:17:20

He's responding to people's pain, right? Maybe he would say that he's definitely responding to men's pain, right?

01:17:27

He was he tapped into this wave of father hunger, right? Doug Wilson says and he this whole wave rose up under him

01:17:34

I'm like when now suddenly in 2018 he's surfing on this wave like I guess I'm gonna do this, right?

01:17:39

And so now here he is and so he's responding to a need and he's offering healing from the tools that he has and I think a lot of that for the same reason that neopaganism is on the rise

01:17:49

It's because the American Evangelical Church has withdrawn from offering the message of redemption and healing in the gospel

01:17:55

And so I think he's he should every Christian listening to that should take that as a charge as a challenge

01:18:01

To preach their faith more boldly and their own healing and transformation in Christ as well in response

01:18:08

No, that's really good, man. Well, I think that that's a good way to reach up. So Sean, thanks for coming on I think you you did your part.

01:18:14

I think you feared quite well for your first Podcast Yeah, we can also talk about in that and we can also

01:18:25

Psychoanalyze it more as we're pumping iron in the gym later on this week together can be arranged Absolutely, we can do something like that up bright and early loving it

01:18:33

Definitely great great inside really appreciate a lot of what you had to say any kind of last thought about this whole conversation your last thoughts

01:18:40

You know, I I would just be kind of jumping off this final point here. Hey, I Have felt

01:18:46

God's sovereignty in my life and the place where I was before is

01:18:55

Radically different to the place I am today and It is hard for me not to think that the

01:19:06

Lord used Jordan Peterson in his way To bring me closer to him

01:19:13

Hmm and I Don't put

01:19:19

Jordan up on any pedestal. He is just a man after all he's got some very fascinating things to say and I Think that's uh, that's that's that's good enough for me

01:19:33

I'm very grateful for where I am today. And if his work I Pointed me initially in a direction that brought me to Christ when

01:19:46

I say Hallelujah and amen to that. Amen to all that awesome. Well, I Really appreciate you guys coming here.

01:19:54

Well, I'm gonna have to do a follow -up episode when uh when the book actually comes out Let's go have my assistant reach out to dr.

01:20:00

Peterson. Maybe we can ask rains. I loved it that that'd be great He's gonna be he's gonna be waiting with bated breath

01:20:08

Conversation and be great awesome. Well, if you guys have enjoyed this conversation Hopefully you've taken a little have a couple of takeaways from our talk of seeing dr

01:20:19

Jordan Peterson alive here in Phoenix, Arizona today. It was a yesterday. Yes.

01:20:24

Today's the 25th yesterday March 24th at the Arizona Financial Theater, I guess it is but um, yeah, it was a good time

01:20:32

And so if you maybe if you had seen dr. Peterson at one of these other talks if you have thoughts

01:20:40

Let us know your social media would love to hear your thoughts just of our talk on Peterson or what your thoughts are overall

01:20:46

Definitely appreciate your insight. So all that being said, thank you all for listening in make sure to also check out our sponsors in the link as they are also a big part now of contributing to Allowing podcasts like this to come to your podcast catcher on a weekly basis all that being said

01:21:03

We will talk to you all next time on cultish. Talk to you all soon What's up, everybody? If you are blessed by this content and you want to support the

01:21:09

Gospels proclamation to the cults while equipping the church to combat deception Then come join us and become a cultish all -access member you'll get an ad free experience and exclusive content like Cultish the water cooler where you hang out with Jeremiah and myself as we go live and interact with all of our members

01:21:26

You'll also get early release of episodes one to two weeks early on top of all of that.

01:21:31

There's also cultish the aftermath It's an after -show commentary where we get to say all the things that they won't let us on top of that You get all of the other training on Apology of studios calm come be one of us head over to the cultist show calm or follow the link in the show notes