June 3, 2004

The Program Introduction and the Day’s Topics

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. It is a Thursday afternoon a mere 110 degrees in the desert Southwest at least. At the Arizona Science Center, anyways, it's probably not that at Sky Harbor International Airport.

It's not always just a couple degrees. So let's see. Oh 109. Oh, wow. Hmm big difference. But let's see dew point. 37 degrees humidity 8 percent. Giving a heat index of 104 8 percent. Does it ever get that low in Nolans?

I bet you doesn't get that low and not Nolans down there. I could not survive that. I'll tell you Unbelievable, but this is the dry time of the year. It'll it'll get worse. But it's it's summer and I just walked over to I went and got some Summaries someone got unhappy and I went got some Mountain Dew.

I like Mountain Dew. I'm just good. Somebody else was getting a dr. Pepper. I did test dr. Pepper. Yeah, it's horrible, but Anyway, I Just realized I still haven't found that thing. I've got to write myself a note.

I'm gonna forget to look for something. But anyhow, welcome to the fighting line eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I sound like like Rush Limbaugh. It's beginning of a few programs where you can tell he wasn't quite ready for the microphone to start at that particular point in time and so anyway We've we've had a blog Explosion today.

I've been very very very busy trying to catch up with the blog explosion. Well, what do you mean catch up? I'm the one producing the blog explosion, but I mean catch up with various sundry issues. Was up late last night responding to Jimmy Akins Attempt to make a lot of hay out of a three out of three sentences.

You know for in 21 books you'd think maybe just maybe it might be a better idea to look at the 21 books than three Sentences, but hey, you know When you can't deal with what's in the 21 books you deal with the three sentences.

That's easy. But then we also posted a fairly lengthy response second part in the Reformed Catholicism stuff and so we're opening the phones today. I haven't had time to Dig out some of the CDs that are laying around here and in various sermons from from folks and all all that kind of stuff to create cuts and do stuff like that and and really to be honest you know most of stuff like like all the stuff that we do and we hear all the time regards to Well, you know Jonah 2 -8 and the NIV over against all of the translations and things like that that seems to Appear on certain programs.

We've already dealt with a lot of stuff. You know how many times can you say the same thing over and over again? I I don't know, but anyhow eight seven seven seven five three three three four one you all have not had the opportunity of getting into the program and Making your voice heard for a number of weeks now, and so now is your opportunity.

Please try to be clear in explaining. What is you wish talk about so that the the great board op of Mind reading can let me know and I can go yeah. I don't know that doesn't make any sense or Why put somebody on the air when I'm gonna sit here and go?

But hopefully it'll be something relevant to Mormonism Jehovah's Witnesses Roman Catholicism the doctrines of grace Church history The text of the New Testament translation of the Bible biblical theology in general.

I have a question about two at the par bar and three that was a causeway with two at the par bar.

No for for par bar to the causeway and to the par bar. Yes. Yes, that's that's. I'd like to know what that means. Those are locations and they were as I recall. Whether they Levi's or something they were they were like guards or something.

Yeah, but what does it mean in the Hebrew?

The same thing it means in English. I always love that. No, I know. Yeah, what's what's this passage mean in Hebrew?

Uh-huh? Yeah, what does it mean in Greek? Well pretty much. That's why they Translated it that way and yeah I know we don't have that. Does that. Does your voice floating into my headphones mean that no one has yet taken this up on?

The on the invitation the lights are dark, and I don't think it's because there's a problem with the phones. Oh really, so yeah, you know I'm a host. It's who knows that it's Distinctly possible. You know.

Oh great.

Actually you know a Friend of ours the Jonathan Callahan is is going to jolly old England this next week.

And so in honor of that maybe we could do this a or perhaps I could take a moment and spare the audience. And explain that I'm working on the possibility of Dealing with the straight-gate situation. Oh, yeah, cuz straight gates went bye-bye.

I mean it will air, but no one's running it. It's yeah, it's on. It's on autopilot. I think it's doing the VJ thing Major. Oh hey an old Star Trek.

Thing there you go, but in the meantime. I'm going to be working on a project where Hopefully with our mp3 site I can work this out and make this happen where we can put the current program that we've got up there Available so that it follows the listen to our most recent program link.

I'm cleaning off my keyboard. Oh, okay, so When folks click on that they at least get the most recent program. And then if they want to go back into the archives they can go through the mp3 site.

Yeah, we're gonna need to get our mp3 archives all. Is there a dog in here. No. He's over here. He must be right next to the door cuz I'm hanging.

I don't know what it is very odd, but I think my game might be up just a little bit here. I'm a microphone, so he's he's you know it's summertime. He's scratching. I know he was you know that's all poor Z Keech as let's do that during the summer.

The collar. Okay back to the English accident. English accident accident is more like. That would be more accurate. Oh Boy, thanks, I appreciate that. Actually you think about it. It kind of sounds like somebody an Englishman has been in a car accident.

Shortly thereafter, you know I've never heard you try it. I'm not about to.

And barely it became very quiet. Okay. Well, thank you for letting us know about that. We will we will work on the on getting the mp3 archive. All. Yeah obviously what we need and maybe what we can get is a system that would sort of do some keyword searches, and we have someone who's actually talking a little about doing some of that stuff and.

So that that would be nice, and then we could make the the old mp3s available of the program.

I mean, we've been going on since 98 now. Yeah, that's a lot of programs. Let me tell you I know I know I've been you know compressing these archiving them and it's in fact there's a lot in the mp3 side that I I have a lot of going back and redoing and I still have a lot of that work to do and so it takes time.

Yeah. We keep plugging away, but. But record time yes, yes, yes, yes, go ahead. Record time. The DVD CD and mp3s of the great debate 9 2004 With dr. White and Gary Michuda on the Apocrypha. Released on our website this morning.

Yes, yes, yes, and so that that is by far in a way a new world's record.

Oh world's record there. They're keeping track of these things. Well somebody has to.

I Think by. I think my quickest turnaround before was three months, so that's pretty good two weeks to the day.

I think there is one you got out pretty quick, but I forget which one it was. So yeah. Well, it's getting easier to do the DVDs now. You know the program words and stuff like that.

So it doesn't take as long so well. I'll let you get back to the. Yeah, well.

I'm just a program. I don't hear any phones ringing on the other side, so you maybe I should try the English accent. Yeah, that or do we have Warren's number around here, we can call Warren up and Have him sing Elvis and that'll battle either the or that or the FCC will ban us one of the two.

I'm not sure hmm. Hey, you know given the all the other wacky stuff going on in the world especially Federal judges taking over the the federal kinglets and Queen Queen let's that's what I like to call them Have taken over the government of the United States, and I was reading someone in Channel saying that a Judge in New Jersey had Just Someone had started doing a ladies night where ladies could eat for free and So a guy sued and the judge agreed, and they can't have ladies night.

Just why do people like Big Brother? I don't understand it. I Guess I guess I guess the two things go together. We no longer have the concept of personal responsibility Honor duty things like that so since we don't want to take care of ourselves want somebody else take care of us I guess that's that's why these people get away with doing the things they're getting away with doing that's all I can figure out I just don't know what else to say but Yesterday was it yesterday this this woman judge, and I and I I'm sorry, but but This is this is clearly an Example of God's judgment on this nation when people like this are in control when people like this have authority.

It's it's God's judgment folks same woman who ruled In San Francisco that that center of virtue and and so on so forth that middle school students could Be forced to participate in in Muslim prayers in a class.

I think that got overturned at least I hope so. Also yesterday overturned the partial birth abortion ban yes indeed Law and the legislature have been overturned they are now irrelevant and We are under the control of kinglets and queenlets who have no authority above them that law is is whatever they say it is and.

Something's gotta be done, and I don't know what I don't know what's gonna be, but I think they call it impeachment. Well yeah, I hope so none of our elected officials have the Guts to do that now to stand up and do it.

It'd be a huge fight. Oh, well. You know it's got to happen someday. Wow 111.

Anyway, it's it is a sad sad sad situation, but it is demonstrative of the decay of the moral fiber of the nation. Eight seven seven seven five three three. Three four one there's three threes in road or Jim knows that I'd never noticed that before eight seven there's three sevens and three threes in a row and The five five and three is eight and.

I'll never. Okay add that up. Put it in binary divided by hexadecimal and see what happens. I.

Just thought that was cool. I ate seven seven seven five. I could go eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and.

Four and one equals the five. Look at that. Okay. We have colors now. That is amazing. That's really all.

There's another one coming in now. Why don't you get that one there rich, and I'll go ahead and take these. These calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's let's talk to Josh in Casa Grande.

Notice it's not Casa Grande. Which is what some people would say if they didn't actually live out here and in fact when we drove out here from Pennsylvania 1974 to move here all the way out. We had a big debate as to whether you said saguaro or saguaro.

And we're all of us were wrong because it's saguaro. So anyway, let's talk with Josh. Hi Josh. How you doing?

Dr. White I'm doing all right actually young people in Casa Grande. Do you say Casa Grande? That's that's because.

The educational level in Casa Grande is not where it really needs to be. That's probably very true. Yeah I'm sorry I'm not a question about debating Calvinism. Oh, yeah, what's is that a is that a book or something?

Yeah, it's a book that you and Dave. Oh, yeah, you know it's been a long time since I've heard about that book. I mean, let's face it was last time I talked about on the air I don't even even remember and I was interesting that I got Dave Hunt's newsletter electronic newsletter Yesterday and it was one of the first times I saw any Discussion of the subject and it was an interesting letter that had been sent to him.

They said it was a compilation of a number of them. But it basically said look you've said enough about Calvinism. This shouldn't do what your ministry is about move on and it was Dave Hunt's response that which was very interesting.

So, I don't know if you get that particular thing, but anyhow.

I'm sorry. My question was from page 301.

Talking about regeneration in the new birth. What do you think? I actually keep these books nearby or something. I mean, come on.

301. Okay. I got it. All right, and on the first paragraph He says that Spurgeon said a man who is regenerated dot-dot-dot is saved. And I was wondering if he's quoting Spurgeon correctly because I don't have that Resource to look.

And then he says the next sentence that MacArthur also equated salvation with being regenerated. And I was wondering if they do that or well, well because I know that he has misquoted Spurgeon before yeah.

Let me I'm actually moving the microphone here. Did you do to do? I'm wrestling papers. I now have my CD in my hand. Dude, I'm opening a CD drive here I'm just sort of describing these things to you so that you actually think I'm Doing something meaningful and I'm sticking a CD in there I will look it up for you specifically once the thing fires up here.

Of course, I wouldn't argue with either one. The problem is that Dave doesn't understand or rejects? the idea that when you discuss Soteriology, there are various elements of soteriology that meaningful theological discussion recognizes and differentiates one another and he utilizes the idea the argument that Salvation is Equivalent to any sub part.

So in other words from his perspective, you can't differentiate between regeneration and justification adoption sanctification if anybody says you are saved in such such a way then you can interchange all those words and it makes a mishmash and The fact the matter is Dave doesn't read systematic theologies.

He doesn't he doesn't really respect any of the discussion that's gone on about systematic theology over the years. And so when he will read somebody he will read someone who's using those distinctions but then he will reject those distinctions and thereby say therefore they mean X Y or Z and I tried to point that out.

I tried to point out a number of times to him that in reality he was Missing what the person was saying anyone who's read John MacArthur's material For example knows that he knows the difference in these issues and he addresses Those issues and and so on so forth.

So it's one of those Issues that honestly has Been the reason some people have really almost complained to me Concerning the the issue of the book itself and even though I told people from the very beginning that This book was going to have How do I put how did I say it that the value of this book was primarily going to be? within the context of Looking at how a How you can address this issue with someone who doesn't want to have the issue fully addressed in essence, in other words, it was going to be a Contrast in presentations.

I never said that this is going to be some, you know, wonderful excellent Work as far as you're gonna see things. You've never seen before here and Here's here's the quote. I found it that net wasn't that pretty good I mean, I was still talking to you while looking it up was was that impressive?

I'm impressed. Okay Thank you very much. If I can impress someone from Casa Grande, that's you know, I've made it's it's a good day It's a very good I'm not gonna say anything more about Casa Grande. It's it's a wonderful place.

It's it's a great place to stop between Phoenix and Tucson. It's hot. Yeah, I bet it's it's what what is what about the 113 down there right now? Yep. I was guessing you guys are normally Where I am is about two degrees warmer in the Sky Harbor and you guys are about two degrees warmer We are so you're about four degrees up.

So it's a can get very warm. This is from Metropolitan tabernacle pulpit first negatively and here my first Observation is that any other way of preaching the gospel warrant is absurd if I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who?

Is regenerated then the man being regenerated is saved already and it is an unnecessary Ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him and bid him to believe in order to be saved When he is saved already being regenerate That's not really the point is being made.

Is it? Nope. Not at all. So, let's see. I think there's a there were two hits. So let me let me get the second one here just in case next To do to do there it is Here is an extraordinary thing an unconverted man who is regenerated.

One who is an enemy of God and yet he has in himself a new nature has been born again and yet is not converted To God. Oh, what a regeneration that does not convert a regeneration In fact that leaves men just where they were before us.

That's not it. So it was the previous the previous one. It was it was identical because you could put dot dot dots in there.

It seemed to me that he was saying that once you're saved you can speak about being regenerated. That's okay I can say now from a safe perspective. I was regenerated. Yeah, you see what what I had said.

Let me let me see if I can.

See exactly where I what I was referring to here. Yeah under complete misunderstanding on page 296 I had talked about faith and the nature of faith and regeneration. And I said quoting my statement that one cannot choose to do what is holy and righteous for God unless he or she is given a new nature and regeneration.

He says, of course, whoever does not seem realize the saving faith is a holy and righteous thing something pleasing to God. So he follows it up by stating he seems to forget salvation is offered to sinners not to doers of good works spiritually pleasing to God.

This is a canard anyone even remotely familiar. My position knows I'm not talking about good works so on and so forth and so. All of it went back to the the fact that he refuses to accept that distinction between the two and Certainly Spurgeon here is is not confusing them at all.

He just recognizes you can't separate them, but he doesn't make regeneration the equal of salvation as passage at all. So Let me give you the specific reference that because it what he had is not the same reference that you would necessarily see that's the Metropolitan Tabernacle pulpit volume 9 and In the ages library CD-ROM here, which is what I'm looking at it is Page 667.

So you can jot that down take a look at okay. All right. Thank you very much. Well, you stay cool down there in Casa Grande. All right. Thanks. We'll see you. Bye. Bye All righty, let's let's go over to Essex Falls, New Jersey, I bet am I close on this one there Steve?

No, you're close in the in the person but not in the location. I don't live in Essex Fells. Where do you live the church there?

Oh, well, okay. All right.

I Was hearing your lament on the on the Ninth Circuit Court out in California. Fortunately, a lot of the people referred to them as the Ninth Circus. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. Oh, it's just ridiculous. Yeah, because they the most reversed court in the nation.

Yeah, but how long is that going to be?

I mean, you know as long as people like that are allowed to continue doing these things. That's how they eventually Move the society their direction. It may take time, but that's how they do it. Of course.

Man, and but that's Unfortunately the times we're living in. Yeah, I know it. You know, we've got to do something just not that I'm suggesting political action as a Christian activity, but I think you know Jesus told us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and Caesar has given us the right to vote.

So I think we should render that to Caesar.

Well, I I'm I certainly will be voting in November and I Have very strong views in those areas and man if you want to see Christians I'll light up the boards and start talking about political issues. But there's no question of the fact though that so much of what we deal with today in our society.

We are being told that if you're a Christian you cannot allow Your Christianity to influence your politics. Because we have separation of church and state and that is the most ridiculous a historical irrational Circular type of reasoning you'd ever have but people get away with it.

Of course they do and it and because no one old well will challenge it. But it's the it's in the media that they get away with it. That's the it's it's in the media where that is an accepted Truism it cannot possibly be Be rejected.

It's just.

I'm sorry. Getting getting getting back to the subject. Yes, sir. And by the way You when you spoke over Calvary free church evangelical free. We had a excellent excellent response. A lot of people have come up to me and they want to have you back and And Number of them have asked for the tape that we made.

Which obviously I Found the Trinity. Yeah, I didn't. I don't know that. I gave you the The PowerPoint to that though. Did I know. I probably need to. I need to do that because they you know. If they get the tape of it, it would sort of help if they had the PowerPoint to go along with it.

So but we'll try to do that. Okay, that can be done. I mean I sent you Chris Arens in the singing didn't I? Yes, I did. No, I did. He did an excellent job with isn't he good. I've got so many new listeners.

I should I should pop that into a music match and and let everybody hear Chris's Chris's stuff again.

In the not so long for the channel. So anyway my question, yes, sir, I was at the debate and And The Tudor had made mentioned that several of the books Were never mentioned by Christ because you had mentioned they were the books we know what books were laid up in the temple and the apocrypha was never referred to as Thus sayeth the Lord or it is written and but some of the books That are considered the canon were never mentioned.

What would be a good way to respond to that? Well, I actually did.

Start to respond to that at at one point in in the rebuttal phase and that is that We have two Collections of of books here. We have one where you have Josephus and you have others that are referring To the 22 books to this collection that the Jewish people the Pharisees even the Sadducees.

That's something I I Had a misconception my own mind corrected in the course of My research For this debate and that is I had heard it stated a number of times though. I Started thinking about I couldn't remember ever having seen it really Documented that the Sadducees had a different canon that they only accepted the Pentateuch and I've even said that myself and in reality though That's that's not the case.

It's a misreading of something that Josephus said, but anyway I I pointed out that you have the 22 books of the Hebrew Old Testament you have them being utilized as a as a group and Then you have the Apocrypha and so to say well, okay yeah, you don't have the Apocrypha books being cited with the thus saith the Lord and You have people talking about the law of the prophets and the writings and he made some I do not Understand and did not find to be a really compelling argument that well They hadn't come up with a specific word for the writings.

That's what they're called. It's called the Ketuvim even even today by the Jews is called the writings exact same thing. That was that was back then I don't that one totally left me and the distinction that he tried to make between inspired and canonical I didn't understand either and again, it's just not a part of the normal discussion of the subject.

But anyway You have these two groups of books and people well, you know Jesus doesn't cite from the New Testament site from the Apocrypha, but you don't have a citation of of Esther either and therefore Therefore what I mean if if is there a an actual parallel between these two as if what you've actually just got is all these books and they're just all equal with one another and Therefore if there's going to be any meaningful Any meaning attached to the citation you have to cite every single one.

No. Because they were in particular collections the point is one entire collection as a whole is not cited the other is cited and The idea is not I never made the argument. Well, well not every single one of the Apocrypha is cited if that would be the only parallel is if I was trying to if I was trying to make the argument that every single book In the Apocrypha had to be cited for the Apocrypha as a whole to be canonical then you could make the argument.

Well, not every single book of the Protestant Old Testament is cited. That's not the argument. I was making. Again, Matuda has to prove the canonicity of all the Apocryphal books. He assumed that and then argued against Any data that could be that could be presented against the canonicity, but you can't assume that I mean, that's that's just not a part of what a debate is all about.

So I tried to point that out that what you've really got here are two completely different collections of books here and You don't have to have a citation from every single one to recognize that that collection Held authority when Paul says to Timothy you've known the scriptures he doesn't have to then quote from Genesis Exodus of it gets numbers of your honor me Joshua Joshua to to Fill the term scriptures with meaning we know what he meant by that.

And we don't have any evidence whatsoever that what he meant by that is what Rome means by that since April 8th 1546 and hence the difference. Well, yeah, and you know from what he's written since then I don't get the feeling that he actually Recognizes that I don't get the feeling that he sees that because he keeps saying well I argued as a Protestant I'm sorry.

I don't believe that he did argue as a Protestant.

I also found some of his responses somewhat novel particularly when you pointed out the error. And he responded by saying that well, that's the same question that a young people ask and I'm not going to answer.

Flabbergasted with that one everybody that I've talked to was flabbergasted by that because in essence he he said well you are. You know by pointing out the many historical errors in the book of Judith.

That somehow that was indicative of on my part Acting like an atheist and attacking the canonical scriptures, and so I asked him later on Can you show me anywhere in the canonical scriptures an error of a commensurate type to what is found here?

And and he wouldn't even deal with as a well You've got to turn whether it's scripture first if it's scripture. They can't have real errors in it and so on so it was a very circular Presentation at that point and that's when I started hearing the audience a little bit just just a little bit.

But I but I think there are a lot of folks are going back. Come on. Yeah, that just doesn't work, so Subject it was it was pretty good. Well the DVDs are out now.

All right, thanks. Steve you're gonna send the PowerPoint presentation.

I'll try to remind me in channel sometime. I'll do that for you. Okay. I'll do that. Thanks. God bless. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. We will take our break and be back with Jeremy in Atlanta and Your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one three sevens and three threes there in the phone number.

We'll be right back.

Apocrypha, Canon, and the Debate with Gary Michuta

Such a rarity today, mr. Strong and true.

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 2 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org.

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Kenosis and the Incarnation in Philippians 2

And welcome back to the dividing line. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. His telephone number today. Just catching up on various and sundry things. Since last time we had open phones on the dividing line, which was quite some time ago.

Three four weeks. Don't know but it wasn't nearly as hot bag than it is now. Let's go down south to the land of cotton where good times are not forgotten and. It didn't think that a bit of that that type of place,.

Atlanta Georgia. And Jeremy hi, Jeremy. Dr. White old times there all times. Hey, look away. Look away. I I I know the I know the the instrumental version of that because we play it in channel all the time, but.

Other than that. Sorry, I hear you. Well, hey. Was a little worried at the beginning I thought maybe if it stayed real slow, you might start playing some clips from the.

Pastor of the big church here. I just have you know, I know you sent those to me I just haven't had time to you know, they all sound the same. Eventually, you know, I mean, it's hard to you know, it's it's hard to say anything other than that.

They all end up sound the same. Because they're borrowing from one another aren't they? I mean he's borrowing from. Who was his mentor help me out here. Adrian Rogers, yeah, you know, so, you know if we played and Rogers then we're playing that so anyway I have two copies.

Yes, I do and that's why John Mark and channel just said Jeremy. Yep. Same one. Yep, John Mark also sent dr. Oakley the same CDs that just showed up in the channel. So.

Okay, look it's good good to have open lines here again and just a quick question on I Hear a lot about. Well, I've always been taught I guess in evangelical churches that I've been a member of that like Philippians 2 5 to 11 were the the emptying of the humbling of if a.

You hear pastors talk about laying aside certain divine prerogatives and things like that. What I'm wondering is how I mean. Doesn't that come close to like the canonic? Knows of heresy and I mean if how is it orthodox?

What is an orthodox way right that if thing is it is it as a man the man Christ Jesus? Humbling or I mean, how do you explain that without? You know being guilty of.

The I guess canonic Harrison. Well, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the canonic heresy. I mean kenosis is the the term that is used in verse 7 of Philippians chapter 2 cannot. Oh means to to empty and as I've addressed the subject a number of times there's a article maybe someone will be so kind as to Track it down.

I think you have to use Google because the regular search stuff doesn't doesn't grab it the way it should but there is an article on the CRI website on Philippians 2 5 through 11 that I wrote a number of years ago and I don't know off the top of my head right now.