WWUTT 895 Q&A The Lake of Fire, Judgment for Believers, and Women Deacons?

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February 28, 2019

Responding to questions from listeners about what the Lake of Fire is, if there is a judgment for believers, and can women be deacons. Visit wwutt.com for all our videos!

00:01: What's the difference between references to hell and the lake of fire? Are believers going to be judged and how are we going to be rewarded?
00:09: And can women be deacons? The answers to these questions when we understand the text.
00:25: This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study in the word of Christ, rooted and built up in hymn, established in the faith, and abounding in thanksgiving.
00:33: For all our resources, visit us online at www .utt .com.
00:39: Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you. You're welcome. Were you trying to throw another
00:45: W in there? I don't know what I was trying to do. www .utt
00:50: .com. Well, originally it was going to be understanding the text.
00:56: It was. That was originally what we were going by. Yeah. Hey, so at the time that you're hearing this,
01:02: I am in Utah. That's right. And leading a men's retreat for several churches, actually, that gather together for this retreat.
01:10: And we're studying through the book of Colossians. Awesome. I am on a Twitter fast while I am gone, so you don't find me on social media at all while I am away.
01:21: Will you be listening to this podcast, though? Will I be listening to it? Yeah. We're recording it now.
01:27: I know. I'll upload it, and then I'm not going to listen to it. Okay. Well, I was going to say, hi, I love you, but if you're not going to listen to it, then
01:34: I won't. Well, you just said it. Hi, I love you. So be in prayer for that retreat.
01:41: Leading those men through the book of Colossians is what I'm teaching through over the course of those few days.
01:47: Yeah, be in prayer. Preaching at a church on Sunday and then heading home. I don't get home until pretty late on Monday.
01:53: Yeah. Just the way the flights worked. I couldn't get. It's kind of awkward. Yeah. It's kind of like if I wanted to get home any earlier than I was going to get, it was going to cost me another hundred bucks or something.
02:02: Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Crazy stuff. I mean, it's worth it because it's a lot faster, but at the same time, that's a lot.
02:11: Yeah. It's like, I'm spending extra hundred bucks to be with my family, but we kind of need the money too.
02:17: Yeah. So, speaking of that, we had a really tough February. Oh, we did.
02:23: This is March the 1st. Happy March, everybody. Yay. But as a church, our church, First Southern Baptist Church in Junction City, we had a tough
02:30: February. Mm -hmm. Part of the reason was because - It snowed on Tuesdays and it snowed on Saturdays.
02:37: That's right. So we had - Tuesdays and Saturdays. Yep. All month, basically. We had Wednesday services that we had to cancel, which is, that's our children's -
02:45: Freezing rain. Freezing rain, right. We had some ice in there too. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. That's okay. But we had our children's ministries, which is what we do on Wednesday night, and we had to cancel those a couple of times.
02:56: I never cancel church. We've always got church on Sunday, but nevertheless, that does keep people from coming.
03:02: Oh, yeah. So we had two Sundays in particular where it snowed pretty good the day before, and so we had a very low turnout on Sunday.
03:09: Yeah. So for that reason, we came up way short on our budget in February. Now there are some folks that through their giving, they give online anyway, so their donations still came in.
03:20: Mm -hmm. But those that - Praise the Lord. Yeah. Those that give by offering plate, maybe we'll make it up in March, but I'm mentioning this to you because your help would be greatly appreciated.
03:31: Most definitely. I mean, maybe we'll make it up in March, but it could also be that if we don't make it up in March and we're just constantly playing catch up.
03:39: So if you could contribute something to the ministry, it would be greatly appreciated.
03:45: So that way we can stay debt -free. That's right. Which we have been for a long time. We have.
03:50: The Lord has blessed us with that. We don't - We don't take out loans. You remember a few years ago, we had asked for donations for some of the renovations that we were doing.
04:00: Oh yeah, uh -huh. And we were able to do all of that penny -free, did not have a single penny of debt.
04:07: Well, I say penny -free, but debt -free. Debt -free. Didn't have a single penny of debt through all of that, never had to take out a loan or borrow any money.
04:15: It was amazing. Yeah, to redo the roof on the church and some of the interior stuff that we had to do, reconstruct.
04:23: Some things just need to be completely torn apart and rebuilt. Those structures were old enough.
04:29: So we greatly appreciate your help in that. And I don't think I've ever made an outright appeal for money since then, but we could use your help now.
04:39: So if you go to www .utt .com, you'll see the Give tab on the top right corner of the page.
04:45: Well, on the right side of the menu bar anyway. Click on that and you can give online. Now, since the last time
04:51: I did this, when I was making some listener appeals for donations, and all of this goes to our church, by the way, it doesn't go to me.
04:58: So everything that you donate online is tax -deductible, it goes to our ministry, and the church receives it, and then it gets used in the way that the church needs to use it.
05:08: But if there is a way that you want to contribute, like maybe you are out of the country, you can't give online, can't give by a check, is there another way,
05:17: Pastor Gabe, that I can give? Yes, you can send to my personal PayPal account. Now that doesn't go directly to the church.
05:25: So that's not a tax -deductible donation. You would just have to trust that I'm going to take it and I'm going to give it to the church.
05:31: But you could send that to PastorGabeHughes at gmail .com. So my
05:36: PayPal account is connected to that email address. If you send it to that email, then it will get to me and then
05:45: I will give it to the church. So PastorGabeHughes, G -A -B -E -H -U -G -H -E -S, all run together, at gmail .com,
05:56: and if you want to contribute that way, those donations will go to our church as well. And we will praise the
06:01: Lord together. Thank you. We will indeed. Thank you for your support just by sharing this ministry on Facebook or Twitter, online, with your friends, just telling somebody else about us has been a wonderful support.
06:17: And thank you for your prayers as well. So being Friday, we take questions from the listeners and you can submit questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.
06:26: I do get emails to my personal email account, PastorGabeHughes, but just to let you know,
06:33: I don't necessarily separate those out. And when it comes to pulling questions out to do for the
06:39: Friday broadcast, I don't always think. They get looked over. Yeah. I don't really think of pulling up my own personal account.
06:46: So some of you have sent me emails to that account, and I probably replied to you.
06:52: But if you want to get it on the Friday program, you have to send it to the whenweunderstandthetext account.
06:57: Anyway, so whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com. Our first question here comes from Zachariah.
07:05: Good name. That is a great name. Our son's name is Zachary. Mm -hmm. It's close. Which is what?
07:10: The Americanized version of Zachariah. Isn't that right? Yeah, pretty much. Dear Pastor Gabe and Becky, I am a new listener to the podcast and am grateful for your work.
07:20: I have a question for you about hell and the lake of fire. When a person who is part of the non -elect dies, he goes to hell after being judged by God.
07:30: But in Revelation 20, verse 13, it says that Hades gives up its dead and they were judged by God and they were thrown into the lake of fire.
07:38: Is the lake of fire different than hell itself? Are they the same thing? Is it after the millennial kingdom that this happens?
07:46: Would it be worse than the current hell and hell be a holding place until they are officially judged?
07:52: If you could shed some light on this, that would be great. Thanks, Zachariah. Well, you mentioned, is this after the millennial kingdom?
07:59: My answer to that is yes, because I believe we're in the millennial kingdom now. So this is the final judgment that's going to happen after the millennial reign of Christ, which is currently going on.
08:09: Now, a premillennialist will say that there is going to be a literal earthly reign of Christ, which is going to happen after his second coming.
08:19: And this is both the classical premillennialist and the dispensationalist that believes in this literal earthly reign that comes after Christ's second coming.
08:30: And then it's after the millennium that there is then going to be the final judgment. And all of those in the final judgment that are going to be cast into the lake of fire will be thrown in with death and Hades, Satan and his angels, all going to the second death, that very final judgment.
08:47: So is that worse than the current hell and hell being a holding place until they are all officially judged?
08:53: Yes. But it's basically the same place as hell. So when we talk about hell, that is kind of an all -encompassing word for the place of torment that people are being sent to who did not worship
09:07: Christ in life. They are sent to hell. And that may be hell, the holding place that they're in before the final judgment, or that may be the lake of fire after the final judgment, which is the second death.
09:21: So here are the words that we have in the Bible for the places that exist after death, whether you're talking about heaven or hell.
09:30: So those are the two locations, heaven, which is where God is, or hell, which is separated from God.
09:38: Or you could also consider that as the eternal punishment of God upon those who did not believe in his son,
09:46: Jesus Christ. So heaven or hell, there's the two locations. Then you've got these other synonyms that go with that.
09:55: Paradise, Sheol, Hades, Abraham's bosom, and the lake of fire. But all of those could still fall into the category of being either heaven or hell.
10:05: So paradise being that first one, of course, that's going to be a reference to heaven. Naturally.
10:12: Right. So the most common place that we think of that word paradise being used is where Jesus says to the thief on the cross next to him, today you will be with me in paradise.
10:23: The one who believed in Christ and defended him to the other thief, he said, remember me when you come into your kingdom.
10:30: And Jesus said in Luke 23, 43, truly I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.
10:36: But that's not the only place paradise is used. We also see paradise used in 2 Corinthians 12, 3.
10:42: When Paul is describing a place that he went to, whether in the body or out,
10:47: I do not know. All I know is that this man was caught up into paradise.
10:54: So he references paradise there. Revelation 2, 7, Jesus says, he who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches.
11:01: To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
11:07: So there is our synonym that goes with heaven. We're talking about paradise, we're talking about going to the place where God is.
11:15: Then you've got this word sheol that gets used. Now that's the Hebrew word for grave.
11:21: Sheol could describe either heaven or hell. Oh, interesting. It's just basically the place where the dead go.
11:28: So when, I was going to say, when the dead die. Into the spiritual realm, more or less.
11:36: When the body dies and then the soul goes into wherever place it's going to go in the spiritual realm.
11:44: We just kind of use this all -encompassing term sheol to describe the grave. So that's what that means.
11:50: Hades is a synonymous term with hell. That was a Greek word that was used for hell. But there's another
11:57: Greek word that describes hell as well, and that's the word Gehenna. And Gehenna was in the
12:03: Valley of Hinnom, which was just outside of Jerusalem. And this was where the people would burn their trash.
12:08: But it was considered a place that was cursed because long before the time of Christ and before the exile into Babylonian captivity, this was where the
12:21: Jews would sacrifice their children to Moloch. And so then when Josiah became king and he desecrated the places where those children had been sacrificed,
12:32: Gehenna was one of those places in the Valley of Hinnom. And so that place was considered to be cursed, therefore that was where the
12:39: Jews sent all their trash to be burned. So when Jesus would make references to hell, he would refer to Gehenna.
12:46: And it was understood what he was talking about. This place where... Because everybody still knew about that.
12:51: Right. Yeah. Long -storied history in Israel's past. Since this is the place where your trash is being burned,
12:59: I'm saying this is not only where trash is going to be burned, but bodies are going to be burned there as well. If you do not repent, you will be cast into the hell of fire, into Gehenna.
13:09: One of those places where you see that word in particular used is in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5. So Jesus says it's better for you to cut off a part of your body than for your entire body to be thrown into hell.
13:21: Of course, he's figuratively speaking at that point. If your hand, if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off.
13:27: Your right eye causes you to sin, cut it out for it be better for you to enter into heaven in pieces than to have your entire body thrown into Gehenna.
13:37: Right. That's the word that he used there. And also where he talks about if you have hated your brother in your heart, you have murdered him in your heart, and you are guilty of the hell of fire.
13:51: So you are guilty of Gehenna. That term would also be used synonymously with hell. Hades and Gehenna were references to hell.
13:59: Abraham's bosom. That's one I get asked about probably the most. Like what are we talking about? We use this term
14:04: Abraham's bosom. I'm going to say that that term is synonymous with paradise. It's just another.
14:10: That's what I was thinking too. Yeah. It's just another term for paradise. Abraham's bosom is really only used in one place, and that's in Luke 16.
14:17: And it's where Jesus is telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man goes to a place of fiery torment,
14:25: Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom. He is carried by angels to Abraham's side.
14:31: And that's the place of paradise. So it's just synonymous with paradise, and that's the only place that reference is used.
14:36: And then we've got the lake of fire, and that's really what Zechariah is asking about here. What is this place that we call the lake of fire?
14:44: Revelation 20 verses 13 and 14, the death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
14:50: But it's not just mentioned in the book of Revelation. Jesus also talks about it in Matthew 25.
14:56: Yeah. I was thinking it was Jesus who said that too. Right. So when he talks about the great white throne of judgment, that all of the dead are brought before him, and he separates one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
15:11: Right. And the sheep are gonna go in his right hand, but the goats are gonna go on his left. Those on his right will enter into the kingdom of God prepared for them by his
15:20: Father from the foundation of the world because they did the works of the Son. They did the will of the
15:26: Father in their life. But those who are on his left, the goats, they are gonna be sent away into eternal punishment, the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.
15:37: Right. So we can tell by what Jesus is illustrating there, all of this being part of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew chapter 25, he's talking about the final judgment where everyone righteous and unrighteous living in the dead brought before Christ at the great white throne of judgment.
15:56: And then that being the final judgment where those who had been separated from Christ already at the death of the body will be separated all the further into the final judgment that also includes
16:09: Satan and his angels. That judgment for Satan and the angels has not yet happened, or the demons, those that followed
16:18: Satan. That hasn't happened and that won't happen until the final judgment. And so that's gonna be a separation that will be broader than whatever sort of separation exists now.
16:30: And we know there is a separation because of that story that we read about in Luke 16 regarding the rich man and Lazarus.
16:36: So the rich man goes to a place of fire and torment and Lazarus goes to a place where he's being comforted at Abraham's side.
16:44: And there's a chasm that cannot be crossed, Abraham describes to that rich man. And so he can see into paradise, but one cannot cross into the other.
16:55: He can't receive relief from paradise. Relief from paradise? Yeah. Like somebody in paradise can't give him relief.
17:03: Oh, check. Okay. From paradise then. Yeah. From a person in paradise. Okay. I was thinking relief from paradise, like, oh,
17:12: I'm done with this. Oh boy. I gotta leave. I just need some. Give me something awful.
17:18: I need some relief from this paradise. This is too good. I was really confused. Sorry. But I get what you mean.
17:27: Never mind. Because remember, he asked Abraham for a cool drop to cool his tongue.
17:33: I get it. But the way it transferred into my head was just not what you were trying to say, what you were saying, actually, because you could word it the exact same way, and I get it.
17:45: But anyway, I was stuck. I couldn't get past it.
17:51: That's all right. So a person who is in torment can't get relief from anyone over there in paradise.
17:59: There we go. Does that help? Yes. Okay. There we go. That's on the mark. Now, so then what happens at the final judgment, and I'm confused about this.
18:07: I don't really know exactly how all this is going to work. Right. So maybe that final judgment means that the separation is even broader at that point, and there isn't going to be, like, a looking across the chasm into paradise.
18:19: Right. It's just going to be done. You know, eternally separated, totally consumed in death.
18:25: You won't even be looking into the place. It's going to be like a Big Bang. A Big Bang. Like Big Bang Theory.
18:34: Never mind. Now I'm lost. Like how the Earth began was a
18:39: Big Bang. Well, sure. Right. I'm making a joke. It's a bad one. Never mind. I'm still trying to work it out.
18:48: I'm not catching up with you. Like the Big Bang would be, boom, they're separated from each other.
18:56: Okay. So it's a Big Bang of judgment. Yeah. Somebody on the other side of this is just totally laughing at you.
19:02: Yeah. I mean, they totally get your joke. For some reason, I'm not there. You might just have to listen to this on Friday and go back.
19:10: It's one of those time bomb jokes. Like it's going to go off later. It'll be giggling. Ah, that's okay.
19:16: I got it. Yep. You're going to wake up giggling to this joke. Yeah, that may be so. So anyway, maybe that's how that second judgment or that final judgment works, the
19:28: Great White Throne of Judgment. Right. We know that for the person that is sent into the
19:33: Lake of Fire, Jesus describes it as a place that is so horrible, it can't be put into words.
19:40: But at the same time, paradise is a place that is so magnificent that it can't be put into words. Right. We're actually using very crude terms to try to describe them.
19:49: Gehenna, paradise, Hades, Abraham's bosom. These are like the best that we can do with trying to...
19:58: Jewels, gold. Right. Yeah, yeah. These physical elements that are not actually going to exist in a spiritual realm.
20:06: But it's the best that we can come up with to describe those things. Because we've never known that existence. We don't know what that's like to live outside the body in another place where time and space don't matter.
20:17: I mean, it's kind of like going back in the day of the Bible and explaining to them that we're going to be having these things on our desks instead of building tents, and we're going to live in houses.
20:28: Yeah, right. And have computers that talk to one another and communicate with one another who aren't even in the same area as, you know, you can't even hear me.
20:37: Yeah, guess what? I'm sharing the gospel in Tanzania right now. This is a real person, even though it's a flat screen, that's a real person in there, you know?
20:45: Yeah, trying to describe those things. Right. Well, then you just go to the book of Revelation, you read about scorpions with the hair, and those are
20:52: Apache helicopters, you know? Right, right, right. Right? No. Yeah. Sorry, late great planet
20:59: Earth reference there. Anyway, so, yeah, what was I saying?
21:04: I don't remember. Crude terms. Crude terms, yes.
21:10: Crude terms to try to explain a spiritual existence. Right. So, what is this going to be like?
21:15: I'm not really sure. We just know that when we die, according to Hebrews 9, it is appointed for a man once to die, and after that comes judgment.
21:24: There's some sort of separation that does take place. For the moment that the rich man died, he was carried by, I'm sorry,
21:30: I was going to say he was carried by angels, that would have been the wrong reference. The moment that Lazarus died, he was carried by angels to paradise.
21:40: And the moment that the rich man died, he was sent to this place of fiery torment.
21:46: Right. Yet it wasn't their final holding place. There was yet another judgment that was going to happen that was going to send him to a final either paradise or torment.
21:56: Right. The new heavens and the new earth. Right. All that. Right. So, anyway, coming back to Zachariah's question here, is it worse than the current hell, and hell be a holding place until they are officially judged?
22:09: So it's still the same place as hell, it's just kind of, yeah, like it's worse than the current hell.
22:14: Yeah. And it is the wrath of God that is being poured out on the wicked forever.
22:21: Now, it's commonly said hell is eternal separation from God, but that's not necessarily the truth.
22:28: No, you just get the bad side. Not bad, but like angry. Well, yeah,
22:33: God exercising his glory and wrath. Yes, his justification. Just, no, that's the wrong word.
22:40: Vindication. Vindication. I was like, hang on, that's not it. Well, he is justified in all things. He is.
22:45: Well, that's the route I was trying to go, but I wasn't coming up with the right words. Knowing this about hell, we are compelled all the more to share the gospel with the world that those who have not yet heard the gospel would turn from sin and believe in Jesus Christ and be saved.
23:04: It is necessary when we preach the gospel to speak of the wrath that is to come, to speak of the judgment that is to come.
23:10: It is appalling to me the number of people that try to soften that there is a judgment that is coming.
23:17: Right. I just saw a video recently of an evangelist in Scotland, and he was preaching in a public place in Scotland.
23:25: He was being arrested for preaching publicly. And as he was preaching, he's saying there's a judgment that's coming.
23:33: And you must flee from the judgment that is to come, believe in Christ, and flee from judgment. And then the cops kind of swarm on him at that point.
23:41: That was London. That was Scotland? That was another one. Oh, another? Yeah. Oh, wow. I know which one you're talking about.
23:46: The black guy in London. Yeah. That was arrested. Right. Oh, man. And I think he was a foreigner there, even.
23:51: Okay. So he was not a native of Great Britain, at least from his accent. Okay. But this guy was from Scotland, and he's preaching in a public place in Scotland, and he got arrested.
24:02: Wow. And, but yet, I mean, he was doing evangelism the way that evangelism should be done.
24:08: Yeah. He's saying flee from the wrath that is to come. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. A day of judgment is coming.
24:13: And yet so many pastors out there right now are trying to soften that. We shouldn't say that, because that turns people off.
24:20: Yeah. It's like they have no reverence anymore for the true gospel.
24:26: Yeah, absolutely. No fear of God. Yeah, none. In the sense of these things. They have fear of man more than God.
24:32: That's exactly why they do it, right. That's exactly why they won't talk about judgment, because they fear man instead of God.
24:39: But we need to know that God's judgment is coming. It is righteous, and it is severe.
24:44: Yes. So that a person will know the only way to be saved is
24:49: Jesus Christ, faith in the work that he accomplished for us on the cross and his resurrection from the grave, so that by believing in Christ, we've been forgiven our sins, and we have received his eternal life all by the grace and mercy of God.
25:06: That's right. So thank you for your question there, Zachariah. We're going to talk a little bit more about heaven and hell here, or a judgment, but this time a judgment for the righteous.
25:19: All right. So often when we talk about judgment, we're talking about judgment for those that are going to be cast into hell.
25:24: Right. But those who are righteous are also going to be judged. Right. And that's what... According to their works. According to our works.
25:30: Everyone is judged according to our works. Right. Even in Revelation, it says that great books are open, and we're all judged according to our works.
25:37: Mm -hmm. Peter from Washington sends this question in. He says, Dear Pastor Gabe, I was reading some teaching that a former mentor of mine wrote regarding works.
25:47: His comment was that while we are saved by grace through faith, our works have no grace whatsoever associated with them, and that when we are raptured, we will face the refiner's fire judgment.
26:01: And if our works are all wood, hay, and stubble, we won't be taken to serve in the kingdom with Jesus. It is only those who actually produce fruit that are worthy of the kingdom.
26:11: At least that is what he is apparently teaching. I question his interpretation of what it means when we are raptured.
26:17: He is a dispensationalist. I am not. But regarding the judgment of believers, I am not as informed as I want to be and would appreciate your thoughts and direction.
26:27: Well, thank you for your question, Peter. I have to say, though, I don't quite understand what you're saying it is that he's teaching.
26:34: It almost sounds like he has it backwards. Like, we're judged by our fruit and grace has nothing to do with it.
26:44: But really, we can't produce fruit without grace. So, I mean, that's a little bit backwards there.
26:51: So you consider Ephesians 2, 8, and 9 that says, By grace you are saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no man may boast.
27:04: Exactly. So that's kind of our go -to passage related to we're saved by grace alone through faith alone and no other way.
27:11: But then... Like you can't do enough to earn your way to heaven. Right. It's by no work that we do.
27:16: Right. And if it was by our works, yeah, like you said, we'd never be able to do enough to get there. It'd be like the
27:22: Tower of Babel. Yeah, that's right. It would never happen. We're just building a Tower of Babel. But then we get to... We often omit verse 10.
27:29: Okay. Whenever we reference Ephesians 2, 8, and 9, we're saved by grace through faith, not of works.
27:34: But verse 10 is still very important in that. Right. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
27:44: God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. And that's all by God's grace.
27:50: Right. So, again, maybe your teacher is saying something different there that I just don't understand, but I don't get how he's saying that our works have no grace whatsoever associated with them.
28:02: Yeah. I don't understand that either. It is... We're supposed to be doing all things to the praise of his glorious grace.
28:09: Right. So, maybe you can ask him, and I mean, I get that you're trying to get more information, so how to be more educated in your responses to him, but maybe you can just ask him for clarification.
28:22: So that way you know if it was just worded a little wonky, and you misunderstood, or I mean, there's times that I read something, and I read it completely wrong, and I'll go back hours later and read it again, and it's like, oh, well, that's not what
28:37: I thought it meant. You know what I mean? Right. So, it could be one of those things. But if you're studying it, then surely it says what you think it says, so...
28:46: But I don't know. Sometimes I write that way too, so... Yeah. Yeah. Just asking for clarification in that sense.
28:53: But nevertheless, we do read about a judgment for believers, as well as a judgment that is for unbelievers.
29:00: And even Peter referenced in his question that all our works are wood, hay, and stubble.
29:06: If the works that we do are wood, hay, and stubble, well, he says we won't be taken to serve in the kingdom with Jesus.
29:11: But that's... I mean, the only way you don't get into the kingdom with Jesus is if you did not have faith in Christ.
29:18: Exactly. And that's by the grace of God. Again, if you were a follower of Jesus, yeah, if you did the will of the
29:26: Father through Jesus Christ, then you are going to have entrance into the eternal kingdom.
29:32: But if you did what was contrary to the will of the Father, and you were not a follower of Christ, but instead were a child of Satan, again, going back to what we studied a couple of weeks ago in John 8, then you are going to be cast into the lake of fire and be under the wrath of God forever.
29:48: Instead of being a part of paradise in the eternal kingdom of God. So again, that distinction there,
29:54: I don't really understand what he's saying. Since our works are not going to be the thing that gets us into the kingdom of Christ.
30:02: It is only by the grace of God. But there are good works that we are supposed to do, which
30:08: God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. And then we have hints throughout the New Testament that we are going to receive reward based on the kind of works that we did in Christ.
30:21: So there is a system of reward, a system if I could use that word as crudely as it is, but there is a system of reward that exists for believers.
30:31: And so some will receive a greater reward from God in heaven at that final judgment than other believers will.
30:39: And I think the best book of the Bible, honestly, to help you understand this is 1 Corinthians. I think the most references are in that letter than any other that we find.
30:49: For example, that reference that you made to wood, hay, and stubble, well, we find that in 1
30:54: Corinthians 3, starting in verse 10, according to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder,
31:03: I laid a foundation. Look there, you see grace and work together.
31:09: According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder,
31:15: I laid a foundation and someone else is building upon it. So by the grace of God, Paul was called to this work as an apostle.
31:22: He preached the gospel. Now there are others that are helping to build the Corinthians up in maturity and their understanding of the foundation that Paul laid when he first preached to them.
31:33: Let each one take care how he builds upon it. Verse 11, for no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is
31:41: Jesus Christ. Now, if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become manifest for the day will disclose it because it will be revealed by fire and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
32:00: If the work that anyone is built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
32:07: If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
32:16: First Corinthians chapter four, next chapter, verse five, therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time before the
32:24: Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.
32:32: Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
32:38: In first Corinthians chapter five, we continue this motif of judgment together when we are judging one another by our works here on earth so that we may save one another from the body being thrown into hell.
32:54: Oh, so you're saying like iron sharpening iron. Iron sharpening iron sort of a thing. That's right. Making sure everybody's in check and following God and not sinning and stuff like that.
33:04: Yes, that's encouragement and admonishment because as we are called to do that for each other so that we can keep one another on the path of righteousness that we may endure to the end and finish strong, then we get to first Corinthians chapter six where the apostle
33:20: Paul makes a reference to the fact that we are all going to be judges together with Christ because he rebukes the
33:27: Corinthians for taking one another to court for Christian going to law against a fellow
33:32: Christian. And he says, I say this to your shame. Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?
33:41: And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
33:47: Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more than matters pertaining to this life?
33:55: So we're exercising judgment with one another, which is what we're ultimately going to be doing in the end when we together having perfected one another for that day of judgment, reign together with Christ and we pronounce judgment on even the angels.
34:11: Those angels that had rebelled against God and had followed Satan, we as the saints will even pronounce judgment on them.
34:18: And Jesus Christ says in Revelation two and three, the one who endures to the end will sit with me on my throne and we will reign together with him and judge with him as well.
34:29: So there is a refiner's fire judgment as talked about there that happens. And then there are certain saints that are going to receive more than others.
34:39: You think about the statement that Jesus made that in the kingdom of God, the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
34:46: You have the story of the wheat and the tares in Matthew chapter 13. Now in the ESV, it's the parable of the weeds.
34:54: I don't think that story goes as well. No, because you can pretty much pick out the weeds and you see them.
35:00: Right. You see the difference between the wheat and the weeds, but the difference between the wheat and the tares is that you actually can't tell the difference.
35:07: Right. Wheat and tares look the same until the wheat kind of buds and it changes color and then it looks different than the tares.
35:19: And so then at harvest, the wheat is harvested and the tares are bundled up and tossed into the fire. And that's the parable that Jesus gives there in Matthew chapter 13.
35:28: So is this particular judgment that happens before the judgment seat of Christ concerning even the righteous who is going to have to give an account for each of his works before God?
35:40: Romans 14, 12, each of us, Paul says, will give an account of himself to God. Is this going to be a judgment that will separate the true believers from the unbelievers?
35:50: Or is it going to be a judgment to give reward and the measure of reward to true believers?
35:56: The answer to that question is probably both. There is probably going to be a distinction that will be made between those who truly were righteous and those who were not.
36:05: Right. But then those who were righteous, and that's just based on the parable of the wheat and the tares, for example.
36:11: But the judgment of the righteous will differ for each person.
36:16: So one person will receive more reward than the other. All Christians are going to stand before Christ as judge and our judge will be
36:26: Christ. Our judgment is going to be after we die. Right. Mm -hmm. And when we stand before Christ as judged, we are going to be judged.
36:36: The ultimate judgment. The ultimate judgment. Right. It's going to be before Christ. And when we stand before him as judge.
36:42: So you go back to the story in Matthew 25 of Jesus saying, when the son of man comes in his glory and he sits on his great white throne and all of the nations are gathered before him, we come before Christ, he will be our judge and we will be judged according to our deeds in this life.
37:02: In Matthew 16, 27, the son of man is going to come in the glory of his father with his angels and will then recompense every person according to his deeds.
37:14: And in the last chapter of the Bible, almost one of the last statements that we have, behold,
37:19: I am coming quickly and my reward is with me to give to each person according to what he has done.
37:28: Now having said that, if there is a system of reward for believers in heaven, even talking about believer's judgment, so some are going to receive greater commendation than others.
37:41: Right. If there's going to be a reward system for believers, then isn't that going to create like a competitive nature among us?
37:50: Are we going to be jealous or envious of those that we see that are being more greatly praised than we are?
37:58: Are we going to feel bad for ourselves because we didn't do as much to get what that person has?
38:04: I would say no, just because sin is not going to be there. Right. But it does say that God is a jealous
38:11: God. So is that a different application? Right. That's in our walk in this world because he's not about to share us with any other
38:22: God. So we cannot have a passion that even shares the place of God or takes the place of God.
38:29: We must love the Lord, our God, with all of our heart, all of our soul, all of our mind and all of our strength.
38:37: So that's what God means when he says that he is a jealous God. Gotcha. Therefore, that jealousy doesn't exist in heaven.
38:43: So then that wouldn't be there. Right. Because we would when we're there. Yeah. So you were right to say, no, there's not going to be envy.
38:52: There's not going to be jealousy. There's not even going to be a regret for ourselves that we didn't do more to receive more.
38:58: Right. Rather, this is actually going to be part of what we're going to be glorifying
39:03: God for. Well, I mean, if God already had it written out, what we're going to do and everything and our works, what they're going to be, how can we be jealous of one another?
39:12: Right. Right. All of our days were written in his book before one of them came to be, Psalm 139. Yeah. So we see
39:18: God's plan perfectly. Right. We see it fulfilled. We see his will done in heaven.
39:24: And we're going to say, yay, God. Right. We're going to be rejoicing in God in that. Praise the Lord. That his perfect work was accomplished exactly the way that he meant it to.
39:34: That's right. So some are going to receive more and some will receive less. And we're going to say, praise
39:40: God for that. Right. Praise God that this brother or this sister in Christ received this reward for what they had done here on earth.
39:48: And you will be totally satisfied with the reward that you get because you will have seen
39:54: God's will perfectly and you know that you will have received exactly what he meant for you to receive.
39:59: Right. To receive. Right. And you will be totally satisfied. There will be no lack.
40:06: There's not going to be anything there that you're going, oh, I wish I would have had more. Right. Because it was perfect.
40:11: It's perfect. You will receive it perfectly. Now, having said that, though, don't think upon yourself now, well, okay, so when
40:18: I get there, it's not even going to matter. So therefore, what difference does it make what I do here? No.
40:23: You be obedient. Right. And you love the Lord your God. Right. And you do what he has called you to do with faithfulness and steadfastness and endurance because you love
40:34: God. That goes back to what we were talking about just a little bit ago about keeping each other in line. Right.
40:39: Yeah. It's a cycle. Encouraging and admonishing one another in the Lord. That's right. Again, how these things are going to take place, how all of this is going to work, it's difficult for us to.
40:50: Comprehend. Yeah. Yeah. Because we're trying to think of the supernatural with natural minds.
40:57: It's just difficult for us to do it. We don't know anything that's beyond us or beyond written. Yeah. What our experience is here, what's been written for us and given to us in his word.
41:07: Even those things that are given to us in crude terms so that we have some understanding of it. Right. We know that our hope has been written out for us, but we don't know exactly what this experience is going to be like.
41:18: We haven't gotten there yet. Just like we don't know what tomorrow is. That's right. So love the
41:24: Lord. Amen. And do what he has called you to do according to the grace that has been given to you.
41:32: So that's in Romans chapter 12, verse three, for by the grace given to me,
41:38: I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
41:50: And when Paul makes that reference, talking about the grace that is given to me, that goes all the way back to the start of the letter in Romans chapter one, where he says that through Christ Jesus, our
42:02: Lord, we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name.
42:09: So his call as an apostle was a certain measure of grace that was placed upon him, especially considering you think about Paul's story.
42:16: He was kind of late. Right. Late to the game. He was a persecutor of Christians, and yet God by his grace saved him from the wrath that would have been upon him for doing that and made him an apostle, a proclaimer of the gospel of Jesus Christ, rather than a persecutor of those who had been preaching the gospel of Christ.
42:35: Right. So this was a measure of grace that God gave to him. There was a specific measure of grace there, and he makes a reference to that measure of grace later in the book in Romans chapter 12, verse three.
42:45: And so likewise, we've all been given a certain measure of grace. Now the fact that you have grace, you are saved.
42:51: Right. There's the common grace that's over every single person, which is the fact that everybody that's alive.
42:57: Still alive. Right. Everybody that's alive right now is not dead yet. That's God's common grace.
43:02: But then you in your salvation have received a grace of God that is justifying grace.
43:09: And then there is a measure of grace that is going to be extended to you in terms of the calling that you have received and how you are sharing the gospel, the opportunities that you have, the spirit that is upon you, the gifts of the spirit that you have received, things of that nature.
43:23: Right. So that's a different measure of grace that has been given. And we must think humbly according to the measure of grace that God has given to us.
43:32: Not trying to impose yourself upon someone else's calling, but knowing what the
43:38: Lord has called you to do specifically and be obedient to the Lord in that. All right.
43:44: We have one final question here. Okay. This is from Melissa. Greetings, Pastor Gabe and Becky from Southwest Kansas.
43:51: Hello. I am a relatively new listener, but I am enjoying your teaching through John Jobe and the
43:59: Friday question and answer podcast. I remember listening to you and your dad on the radio station that you worked for back in the day.
44:08: I'll have to pass that on to my dad. Yeah, definitely. Let her know about that. Yeah. So my dad is celebrating 50 years in broadcasting this year.
44:15: He is. It's so exciting. The same year that John MacArthur is celebrating 50 years of ministry at Grace Community Church.
44:22: Isn't that crazy? Just crazy. He's supposed to be honored at the National Religious Broadcasters big,
44:30: I don't know what it's at, not a celebration, award ceremony. Shindig.
44:35: Yeah, something. Because John MacArthur is receiving an award there.
44:41: My dad is as well for 50 years in broadcasting. So cool. Yeah. Anyway, I haven't heard details on like date and time, but neither has he.
44:48: I've been keeping in touch with my dad on that. He's like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm supposed to be there. Anyway, so Melissa goes on.
44:54: I have two questions. First, where did you go to seminary? Second, what is your view on women as deacons in the church?
45:00: I am complementarian and reformed, but have recently read several articles that make the case that women as deacons is acceptable, like in this article published by the
45:09: Gospel Coalition. Thank you both for your ministry. God bless you both. Thanks for writing,
45:15: Melissa. Yeah, good to hear from Southwest Kansas. Yeah. It's where Becky was born. Yep.
45:20: I was. I graduated high school there. Beginning of, through the beginning of elementary and then finished up on this side of the state.
45:28: That's right. Yeah. You graduated high school this side of the state. Yep. I was in Southwest Kansas. So we lived in about the same place at the same time.
45:37: We just never knew each other. It was funny because we still have the same friends. The friends knew both of us, but we didn't know each other.
45:45: Even had all the same friends and everything. Yep. Okay. So to answer your first question, first question was, where did you go to seminary?
45:51: I have not been to seminary. Now I will say that I have been registered twice at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, but never actually took classes.
46:02: So I need to get re -registered there. But I haven't completed seminary.
46:09: Like you know, Melissa, I had worked in Christian radio growing up. I was surrounded by all those
46:15: Bible teachers that I listened to on the radio station that you probably listened to as well.
46:21: My dad taught me to read the Bible. Right. I mean, he taught me to read with the
46:27: Bible. Right. So it was like, okay, pick up the book of the Bible. I'm going to teach you to read it. Oh, look at this over here. That's right.
46:34: In the Bible. And I picked Exodus because I liked the story of Moses and the burning bush. Little did I know that meant
46:39: I was going to be reading from Exodus to Revelation. Yep. I should have picked like Jude or something.
46:44: But anyway, no. So he taught me how to use scripture to interpret scripture. And it was growing up in that and listening to all those
46:51: Bible teachers, working in an environment where I could receive that kind of teaching. And it wasn't like, you know, working at the grocery store or Pizza Hut like my friends were doing.
47:02: Right. It was working at a radio station where I'm receiving Bible teaching all day long. Right. And so my situation was extremely rare.
47:10: I don't typically encourage people to go this route. I say, if you can do it and it's available to you, you should go to seminary.
47:19: But I will say, I had the chance to have a conversation with Al Mohler one time. Oh. And I asked
47:25: Al Mohler, I said, can you give me a compelling reason why I should resign as a pastor and go to seminary?
47:32: And he said, nope, couldn't give you one good reason to do that. Seminary prepares you to do what you're doing.
47:38: And so unless you feel ill -equipped to do it, then you should just continue to do what it is that you're doing.
47:44: All right. Now, I want to finish seminary just because I would like to further my own education.
47:49: Right. But as of yet, I've not been able to do that. The church actually has money set aside in the budget for me to be able to take those classes and then even compensate me for those classes up to a certain amount.
48:00: But like we said at the beginning of the broadcast, we're kind of in a slump right now. Right. So if you could help us out with that, it would send me to seminary.
48:11: Just kidding. Just teasing. All right. So then her next question was, what is your view on women as deacons in the church?
48:18: And she gave a link to an article from the Gospel Coalition. It didn't work.
48:24: But I imagine that the link that she was sending me was that article that was written by Thomas Schreiner just about a week and a half ago.
48:32: Now, the title of this article was, Does the Bible Support Female Deacons? Yes. And I had a problem with that article because he was giving a systematic argument for why women can be deacons, even references in the
48:46: Bible to women deacons, using even First Timothy Chapter 3, which is where we find the qualifications for deacons.
48:52: But he never referenced Acts 6. How do you give a systematic argument for deacons without going back to when deacons were first appointed?
49:03: And that was in Acts Chapter 6. And their function in the church was to be able to meet the physical needs of the church so that the elders were able to meet the spiritual needs of the church without having to stop doing what they were doing with the evangelism and the teaching.
49:20: Therefore, those physical needs that needed to be met in the church, the deacons kind of oversaw that, and it became an office of the church.
49:28: So now the two offices are elder and deacon. Now because those are the two offices, and prior to explaining the qualifications of those officers, we have this stated in First Timothy 2 .12,
49:43: that I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain quiet.
49:49: And even before that, we had instructions that were given to the men, I desire that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling.
49:58: So men are supposed to be leading in these positions. The qualifications that we have in First Timothy 3, verses 1 -7 for elders and verses 8 -13 for deacons are clearly in the masculine, especially where it says that an elder must be the husband of one wife, and deacons likewise must be a husband of one wife.
50:22: Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober -minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husband of one wife.
50:29: Now Thomas Schreiner argues in his article that in First Timothy 3 .11, where it says their wives must be dignified, he says that can be interpreted women.
50:41: So it doesn't necessarily place a possessive on the woman to the man.
50:47: Does that make sense? Okay, sure. Okay, so it's not, it doesn't have to be their wives must likewise be dignified.
50:53: It could be a standalone statement, women likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober -minded, faithful in all things.
51:02: The reason why I don't like that argument is because it neglects what goes on in verse 12, let deacons each be the husband of one wife.
51:10: And that's not interpreted, let deacons be a spouse of one spouse. It's very clearly let them be the husband of one wife.
51:17: Now, I will say on this particular issue related to deacons being men and not women, this is not an issue
51:25: I would fall on my sword over. So if there is a church out there that has women serving as deacons,
51:31: I'm not that torn up about it. In my own church, I wouldn't do that. But I will say, matter of factly, that if there is a church with a woman as a pastor, they are in biblical disobedience.
51:43: They are disobeying God because it's clearly stated, not just in 1 Timothy 2, but also in 1
51:51: Corinthians 14, and just the general order of nature as God has created it.
51:57: With Paul going back to the Genesis creation, the order of creation when he makes this argument for men stepping into those leadership positions in the home and even in the church.
52:08: This is the way that God has designed men and women for men to fill these roles.
52:14: Now, it almost always follows that whenever I make this argument in some sort of public forum, there's somebody who's sure to say, oh, so women can't do anything.
52:24: Men have to do all that. No, that's not what I said. That's why I'm just sitting here. It's like, yeah, now women just have to sit there and shut up because men have to do everything.
52:35: That's not what I'm saying. If a woman is not working in church, she's probably being biblically disobedient.
52:42: Exactly. There are roles for men to do, and there are roles for women to do. There are jobs all over the church.
52:49: Yes. And they need filled. If women are not working in the church, you have a dysfunctional church.
52:55: Definitely. But women are not supposed to fill those teaching roles. That is for a man to fill.
53:01: Now, hear me, I'm not saying women shouldn't fill any teaching roles, because according to Titus 2, women are to teach other women, and women can teach children.
53:11: Right. And even according to Priscilla and Akila leading
53:17: Apollos to the Lord in the Book of Acts, she can even be an evangelist. In those situations, though,
53:22: I would still prefer that she be with her husband or with a man. Don't go out alone.
53:28: This is not that safe a world for you to be doing that. But nevertheless, she can be an evangelist.
53:34: There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing anywhere that says that women cannot teach at all. But filling that eldership role, the overseer of the church, that is for a man to fill.
53:47: And the Bible is unequivocally clear on that point. And I believe that in that same context, deacons are supposed to be men.
53:56: And I think that is clear as well, but I understand why the arguments exist for women serving in the roles as deacons.
54:04: Women can be servants in the church and serve physical needs of one another, absolutely. I just don't think that as far as the—
54:12: The title. Right. The title is concerned or the official status of that, that they would fill an office of deacon.
54:19: Right. I think that that should be a man that fills the elder role and the deacon role. But women can still serve.
54:26: You don't have to have that title to do that. And by the grace of God, go and do likewise.
54:34: Amen. That was all I had to say about that. So I hope that helps you with your question.
54:39: Just the thing that frustrated me about that particular article was the way that he just stated it so matter -of -factly at the start.
54:47: Does the Bible support female deacons? Yes. No. Not as plainly or as clearly as Thomas Schreiner wanted you to believe that it does.
54:56: There's clearly a discussion and an argument that would have to happen before a church could come to an agreement on the fact that women can be deacons.
55:06: It's not that cut and dry. So it depends on—anyway, like I said, if a church wants to do that, that's up to you.
55:13: Just make sure that's all been talked out and everybody's come into an agreement on it. Right. That's most important.
55:18: Right. But again, the statement on men serving as elders, that's crystal clear.
55:25: Should be men that are filling in those roles. All right. So thank you everybody for your questions today. If you want to submit a question by email when we understand the text at gmail .com
55:35: is the address. God bless. We'll continue our study of John in Chapter 10 next week.
55:42: Awesome. Let's pray. Yes, let's. Our wonderful God, we thank you for bringing us so far that we have been drawn out of darkness into your kingdom of light.
55:54: And you continue to grow us and nurture us and take care of us and discipline us and train us as your sons and your daughters, that we may be presented holy and mature before Christ on that day of judgment.
56:10: And each one will receive his reward as you have designated for us. I pray that we would be faithful in all things, that we would live holy, upright, and godly lives in this present age, protect us from the evils that are going on in our culture right now, help us to be wise to them, following the instruction as Jesus gave to his disciples, that we would be as shrewd as serpents and as gentle as doves and help us to always be holding out the gospel of Christ in front of us, that others may hear it and be saved.
56:43: They would be snatched from the flames and they would be delivered into paradise as we have been through the hearing of your gospel.
56:50: Thank you for your goodness and your grace. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen. Yep, it's cold.
58:10: Okay, so I'm going to leave that heater on. Yes, please. I put it on the other side of the room because I didn't realize how cold it was going to be in here.
58:16: I thought you had it warming up. Nope, didn't even, I didn't even think to do that. I thought that was going to be so sweet of you so I didn't grab a blanket or anything because he's just my sweetheart.
58:27: So is that a backhanded jab now? It might be. He don't mess around in my cold, the cold weather.
58:36: I was going to tell you, you can grab a blanket. You're going to go get your blanket? I might, but then again it might keep me awake.
58:44: Okay, all right, well let's roll with it. I've got my scarf on so we're good. Okay, the scarf, the magic scarf.
58:50: It is. I had to take my scarf off for that picture. Scarf off. Yep, scarf off.
58:56: Scarf off. Scarf off. Where did that even come from?