Should Women Be Teaching the Bible? (Conversation with Michelle Lesley)

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00:02

Should women be teaching other women the Bible? That's what we're gonna talk about today on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins right now.

00:32

And welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

00:35

My name is Kenny Kosky and I am a Calvinist.

00:39

And today I am excited to welcome to Conversations with a Calvinist, Michelle Leslie from a Word Fitly Spoken podcast and someone that I have become quite friends with on Twitter.

00:52

We met through the Twitterverse and have begun going back and forth, reading each other's tweets and having conversations.

00:59

And I've really enjoyed seeing what you do, Michelle.

01:01

And I wanna thank you for being on the program today.

01:04

Well, thank you so much, Keith.

01:05

It is really great to be here.

01:07

This is kind of a bucket list interview for me.

01:10

So I'm really excited to be here.

01:12

I've really enjoyed not just your podcast, but all of your videos comparing the church to various things.

01:19

And I've shared those around with people from my church and they think they're funny too.

01:23

So it's great to be here.

01:26

Well, I'm very thankful.

01:26

Yeah, those have allowed me to meet a lot of people.

01:28

So I'm grateful for what God is doing through a little bit of lighthearted poking fun.

01:35

So tell me a little bit about yourself.

01:37

I know you, like I said, from Twitter and from your podcast.

01:41

My wife has listened to your shows, is very complimentary of the work that you do.

01:46

But tell me how you got started and what brought you to doing a podcast? Okay, well, just a little bit about myself personally.

01:54

I am married to my wonderful husband, Scott, and we have six children, five boys and one girl, actually five men, young men and one young woman, and just love them to death.

02:06

And so my primary job is that I am a wife and a mother and a church lady, I guess you could say, not in the bad Saturday Night Live sense from a few years ago, but in a good way.

02:21

And so that's my primary calling in life is to my family and to my church.

02:28

But about 15 years ago, I started blogging.

02:33

And I've just always enjoyed writing.

02:35

And that was sort of a new platform type of thing at the time.

02:39

And so I just thought, oh, I'll try this out, it sounds fun.

02:41

And so I would just write from time to time, a little article here and there, because my children were still relatively young and I was homeschooling and I didn't have a whole lot of time to do other things.

02:51

So I kind of got started out with that.

02:55

And then that just sort of grew and blossomed.

02:58

And now I speak at women's conferences all over the United States, hopefully maybe outside the United States one day.

03:07

And so my blog has grown to that extent.

03:11

And a few years ago, I was doing a women's conference in Illinois and the pastor said, who do you wanna invite to speak with you? And so Amy Spreeman and I had been online friends for a long time.

03:25

And I said, I can't think of anybody that I would wanna come speak with me besides Amy Spreeman.

03:31

So she came and we did the conference together and had some girl time together and everything, had a good time.

03:39

And during the course of that, people had already been saying, oh, you should do a podcast, you should do a podcast.

03:46

And so I always thought, well, I don't want people to just listen to me.

03:50

I think they would get bored.

03:51

And I know that I always enjoy, I enjoy podcasts where there's a single host, but I also enjoy podcasts where there's more than one host, where they interact with each other.

04:01

And I just thought that format would be more interesting for anybody who would listen to me personally.

04:06

And so I said, well, how about doing a podcast together? And she said, yes.

04:11

And so we started the podcast in, I believe it was August of 2019 and we've just been rocking and rolling ever since.

04:20

So we really have a good time with it.

04:21

We deal with all kinds of topics and we do interviews and answer listeners' questions and all kinds of things like that.

04:28

So that's kind of where we got started and how we're doing.

04:32

Yeah, absolutely.

04:33

I saw that you had interviewed one of the men who was going to be running for president of the SBC.

04:41

I thought that was a pretty powerful interview, important interview that you got to do.

04:45

Who was that? What was his name again? The gentleman that you interviewed? The one that we interviewed on the podcast was Tom Askell.

04:51

I think that was last year.

04:54

I can't keep all my years straight.

04:55

Yeah, I know Tom, this was some, maybe I'm thinking of something else.

04:59

I know I saw you, you were at a table with him.

05:02

It was a video interview.

05:03

I'm trying to think of who it was.

05:04

Yeah, that wasn't for the podcast.

05:06

That was just a video interview that I did with Mike Stone a couple of years ago when he was running for, well, I guess you don't really call it running for president of the SBC, but when he was up for nomination for the presidency of the SBC.

05:20

And that was just me personally doing a video interview with him, so.

05:25

Well, I heard on your last show, or the show that I listened to about women's ministry, I heard that you guys are in the top 250 of podcasters, so that's incredible.

05:35

Congratulations for that.

05:37

I think that's amazing that you were putting out the stats and saying within Christianity and in some countries, even like top 78 or something, and I think it was Germany or something.

05:47

It was really cool.

05:49

Yeah, we really find that a lot of fun.

05:51

We look at the charts more to see where we're being listened to than to see what number we are or anything, because I just think it's fascinating that people in Iceland listen to us, people in Kenya listen to us.

06:04

I mean, it's just really, really amazing.

06:07

And so, yeah, so we check the charts.

06:09

We're usually on some chart somewhere in the top 250, which is amazing to me, but I never ever thought anybody would ever listen to me about anything, you know, growing up.

06:18

So yeah, we're really thankful for that.

06:20

And we're thankful for the work that God is doing in those areas and in those people's hearts that they are wanting to listen to sound doctrine.

06:30

Because if you look at those charts, they're pretty much dominated by false teachers.

06:35

There's some good ones here and there, but mostly the false teachers are the ones who get listened to a lot.

06:41

And so a little dinky podcast like ours that puts out sound doctrine, we're just grateful that God is doing a work in the heart of those people that they want to hear sound doctrine.

06:53

Absolutely, and I gotta tell you, listening to it, it's very professional, very well done, very thoughtful.

06:59

So I encourage people go and check it out, listen to the podcast, look up Michelle on Twitter, follow her, you'll get some good tweets that way as well.

07:08

And your blog, is there a link for people to find you on your blog as well? It's just, it's michellesley.com and make sure you spell Leslie, L-E-S-L-E-Y, not I-E.

07:18

So michellesley.com.

07:20

Great.

07:21

Now, Michelle, I do have to ask this question as we begin to sort of move into our main topic.

07:27

You're not a pastor, right? No, I'm not a pastor.

07:31

That would be unbiblical.

07:32

No, I am not a pastor.

07:34

I don't preach to men even in a non-pastoral position.

07:38

So yeah, no, I'm not a pastor.

07:40

Absolutely, and I knew that question.

07:41

I just wanted to make sure that no one who's listening to this might get the wrong idea.

07:46

You know, when you talked about speaking at conferences, when you talked about speaking with your co-host, that is something that you're doing primarily as a ministry to women, or I would say almost exclusively as a ministry to women.

08:02

And this is what God has gifted you.

08:06

This is how God has called you, but you've not been ordained as an elder in your church or a pastor.

08:14

No, yeah, that is correct.

08:15

I would not go to a church that would ordain me because it would not be doctrinally sound.

08:20

I do wanna clarify that when I speak at events, I only speak to women, and that is very clear on my blog.

08:29

And I've actually, I had one event where I was speaking at a co-ed conference, but I was speaking at a breakout session for women specifically, and had a couple of gentlemen wander in and just very kindly suggested that they go to another breakout session.

08:45

So I'm very vehement about only speaking to women.

08:50

That's really cool.

08:51

And that's very noble of you.

08:55

And when I say noble, it's just, that shows integrity that you would be willing to say, hey, guys, I appreciate you wanting to be here, but this is for women and move on down the road.

09:07

Right, right, down the hallway in that case, yeah.

09:10

I mean, there are some situations where it's perfectly fine for a man to be in the room when a woman is teaching other women, like if they're running the soundboard, if there's a pastor who wants to check me out and make sure that I teach sound doctrine because he's thinking about inviting me to teach the women of his church or something like that, I encourage that for sure.

09:29

But as far as men coming to be taught for the specific reason of being taught, no, that's not something I do.

09:38

Well, recently the subject has arisen and it's sort of going around social media and it's what caused us to wanna do this podcast today.

09:46

And that's the subject of, should women even be doing what you're doing? Because while you and I would agree that women should not be pastors or elders in a church, you and I would also agree that it's okay for women, not even okay, it's appropriate for women to teach other women in certain contexts, like the context that you do, as well as within the church.

10:09

Our church has a ladies Bible study that is headed by one of our older ladies, Ms.

10:15

Anne, wonderful saint, does it every Monday night.

10:18

My wife attends as much as she can with a six month old, she's not always able to be there.

10:23

But so certainly our church allows for a Bible study for women that is led by a woman.

10:32

And that's something that not every church allows.

10:38

And recently, and I'm gonna bring up another podcaster real quick, Allie Beth Stuckey mentioned this on her show this week.

10:44

And what's interesting is, I didn't know she was gonna talk about it, but you and I, and I don't even know that it's this week, I know I listened to it this week, but you and I had talked about this several weeks ago.

10:53

We got this on the calendar at least two weeks ago.

10:55

So I didn't know that Allie Beth Stuckey was gonna talk about this, but she addressed a position that is going around the internet.

11:04

She called it the patriarchy position.

11:05

I'm not sure if that's the right way to, you may correct me on that, but that's what she called it.

11:10

And it's basically the position that women should not be teaching other women the Bible, and even women shouldn't really be concerned with studying theology and doctrine.

11:23

This was the way she described it.

11:24

So I'm not trying to misrepresent anyone.

11:27

So are you familiar with this and have you seen this out there? And have people come and talk to you about it and say what you're doing is wrong? Yes, let me say that there is a spectrum of that particular perspective.

11:43

I have heard from women who have, and this is very rare also, I've heard from women who have written to me or emailed me and said, I'm writing to you in secret because I need some advice and I'm not supposed to be seeking out another woman for advice or for counsel or for teaching or for anything like that.

12:08

But my husband is doing things that I believe are unbiblical and they'll cite whatever it is their husband is doing.

12:16

Maybe he's being abusive or maybe he's not even being abusive.

12:19

Maybe he just holds some really wackadoodle theological ideas.

12:23

And his church, the church that they both go to is reinforcing these ideas or that's where he learned them.

12:30

And so she can't go to her pastor either.

12:32

And she's not supposed to go to any women that are in her life.

12:37

So she's secretly writing to me.

12:39

Now that's kind of extreme, but I don't wanna lump men and pastors like that in with someone who just, maybe in their particular church, they think it's best for only pastors and elders to teach Bible classes.

12:56

I mean, not even laymen, but just pastors and elders.

13:00

So I do wanna indicate that there is a spectrum of those various different beliefs.

13:05

And some of those beliefs are biblical and some of them are not.

13:09

So mainly the ones that I hear from who are telling me that I'm doing something wrong is the ones that I just described where they believe that women should never, women shouldn't even be on Twitter saying things from the Bible.

13:24

Women shouldn't be on social media.

13:26

Women shouldn't, all women should teach is cooking and cleaning and how to potty train your kid and homemaking and things of this nature.

13:36

So those are the ones I generally hear from.

13:39

Those are not the ones who are, they're not very biblical, let's just put it that way.

13:45

But then there are others who see it as more of an issue of Christian liberty.

13:50

And they say, this is the way we do things in our church.

13:53

You may disagree with some of the things that we say.

13:57

We're not gonna judge you, you don't judge us, and it's an issue of Christian liberty.

14:02

So, yeah.

14:03

Yeah, and I do think, I agree with you about the spectrum.

14:06

Every church is gonna have some differing opinions.

14:11

We allow, like I said, for women's Bible study led by a lady, but the elders are aware of what's being taught.

14:19

We're clearly defined what the parameters are within the teaching and all of those things.

14:25

And we assure or seek to assure that whatever is being taught is in keeping with our doctrine and our statement of faith.

14:35

We hold to the First London Confession of Faith.

14:38

So there's the first, that's like the first thing.

14:41

And then we have an additional statement that we wrote that has some more updated issues, like about marriage, what we teach about marriage and things like that.

14:49

And so we expect that those things will be upheld and the elders, of course, are responsible to ensure that that's happening.

14:58

So, and some churches would say, that's too heavy handed.

15:01

Who are you to, and so I agree, there's gonna be a wide berth in regard to how people define what's happening here.

15:12

But the thing that I have experienced, and I've actually, I told you this in the pre-show conversation, I've had people come to me and say, the Bible does not allow women to teach the Bible.

15:29

And I wanna give you their argument and I wanna have you respond with your, how you would respond.

15:36

And again, we can talk through it, and I'll give you my thoughts after.

15:41

I really wanna hear your thoughts though.

15:43

And so here's what I have heard.

15:47

Maybe you've heard this, maybe you haven't.

15:49

The seminal passage in regard to women not being pastors and elders is First Timothy chapter two, verse 12, which in the ESV says, I do not, and this is Paul speaking, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain quiet.

16:10

And so most people like myself, who interpret that in the way that does not allow for pastors and women to be pastors and elders are saying that the emphasis here is teaching and having authority over a man.

16:26

And so it would be okay if a woman taught other women, but she's not to teach or have authority over a man.

16:33

But the argument comes, and it's sort of an original language argument.

16:40

And the argument is that the term didascane, which is the actual first word in that sentence, didascane de gunicae uc epitripo, I think I said that one wrong, but essentially that it separates teaching from authority.

16:58

And the idea is, I don't permit a woman to teach, stop.

17:02

And then I don't permit a woman to have authority over a man, stop.

17:07

So there's two ideas and the teaching then stands alone and it's not modified by the man.

17:14

It's simply, I don't permit a woman to teach.

17:18

And that's the way that it has been.

17:21

Again, I don't hold that.

17:21

I'm giving you what was told to me.

17:24

They said, this is not modified by the word, man, the word andros in that sentence.

17:34

It's just the teaching.

17:37

She's not allowed to do it at all, can't teach at all.

17:40

So how do you respond to someone who might say that? Well, that's an interesting argument.

17:46

I've never heard that argument in that context before.

17:49

What I usually hear is the people who argue, well, it just means she's not allowed to teach authoritatively.

17:56

They put both of those two ideas, they put them into one idea.

18:00

And I'm like you, I would agree that it means that you don't, that women are not to teach men or to hold authority over men.

18:11

But I think our English translators, especially of the ESV and very reliable versions like that have done a good job translating that verse where it is clear that it is talking about teaching or exercising authority over men.

18:29

One of the things when I'm teaching on this concept to women that I always teach is, we all know that when the pastoral epistles and all the books of the Bible were written, they did not have these chapter and verse markings.

18:45

And so if you will look at the text in chapters two and three, and you start at two, what we would call 2.11, which was really just a random point, well, a certain point in the letter originally.

18:58

You start at 2.11 and you flow through to 3.7.

19:03

You start with, let a woman learn with all submission and you flow through all the prescriptions for pastors and elders and who's qualified and who isn't.

19:18

And you'll see that he starts off by saying who isn't qualified to be a pastor or elder or teach, and then he goes on to who is qualified in chapter three.

19:31

And so it's really all one big idea that he's addressing there.

19:35

It's all a flow.

19:38

And so I think that if you really look at it in the context in which it was written and in the way that it was written, as that first passage flows into the second passage, that it really is talking about who, the people who are qualified to be pastors and preachers and elders over the church and who is not, and that is men, not women.

20:04

So I think the whole thing is applying to men who are pastors and elders.

20:11

So yeah, I would disagree with that.

20:14

I would also say, if you think that 1 Timothy 2.12 is saying women cannot teach at all, then you're saying that the Bible contradicts itself because the Bible doesn't just say it's okay if women teach other women.

20:28

It actually instructs older women proactively to teach younger women in Titus 2, three through five, both written by Paul, both pastoral epistles, so both written to pastors in the church.

20:42

So are women instructed to teach or are they not instructed to teach? We know that scripture doesn't contradict itself.

20:50

So if you're gonna take that 1 Timothy passage to say women cannot teach at all, what do you do with Titus 2? It's a contradiction.

21:00

Yeah, and I wanna just throw a plug in for my daughter because she and I were, this is my 25 year old, we were sitting up last night talking about today's interview.

21:11

I was talking about you and telling her that we were gonna be talking about this subject.

21:15

And I said to her what I just said to you about the 1 Timothy 2.12.

21:20

I said, some people separate teaching from having authority over men and they make teaching a standalone.

21:27

And she said, and I was so proud of her.

21:29

She said, but daddy, the Bible tells women to teach other women in Titus.

21:34

And she quoted the passage.

21:36

And I was like, oh, you know.

21:39

That's a good girl.

21:40

Yeah, and so, and again, not to belabor or push the point, but having had this conversation with a real person remembering this conversation, I remember saying that to him and he said, well, they're able to teach certain things, but they're not allowed to teach the Bible.

22:00

So I want you, if you would, you made a good point on your show about what it means to teach the good things.

22:10

And I'm not asking you to repeat everything you said on your show.

22:12

People can go listen to your show and I encourage them to.

22:15

But when you, you made a good point that that has to include godly things because that's what it is.

22:23

Right, I mean, you can't, a lot of people will say that Titus 2, 3 through 5 just means that women can, like I said before, women can teach how to be a good wife, how to be a good mother, how to be a good housekeeper and things of that nature.

22:40

But first of all, there are other things in that passage besides loving your husband and submitting to your husband and rearing your children and being keepers at home.

22:50

There are things besides that, like you're to be self-controlled and pure.

22:54

And I think there's one other thing.

22:55

I'm not looking at it right now, so.

22:58

I'll read it real quick.

22:59

It says, older women, starting in verse three, older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior.

23:04

What does that even mean? How do you define reverence, right? Not slanderers nor slaves to much wine.

23:10

They are to teach what is good.

23:12

And so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind and submissive to their own husbands that the word of God may not be reviled.

23:24

So yeah, there's a lot in there that would be more than just cooking and cleaning.

23:28

Right, yeah.

23:29

Kind is the third thing that I forgot.

23:31

I knew there was something else in there.

23:33

But even if you believe that, even if you believe that older women are only to teach younger women how to love and submit to their husbands, how to love their children and how to be keepers at home or working at home, how can you teach them that without teaching them what the Bible says about that? I mean, I have women all the time who ask me, how do I submit to my husband? And they'll assume or they will assume that submitting to your husband means that you're going to be abused or you're going to be a doormat or something like that.

24:14

You have to start with what the word of God says about these things, or all you have to teach about these things is your own opinion.

24:23

And that's dangerous.

24:25

And that's, a lot of the people who hold this belief that women can only teach the things that are prescribed in Titus 2, 3 through 5, they believe that way as sort of, some of them do anyway, as sort of a backlash against all these false teachers that are in women's ministry right now.

24:47

I don't know if you are comfortable with me naming names or not, but- Name the names.

24:53

It's not gonna hurt my feelings at all.

24:54

I'm sure it's no secret to anybody that it would be people like Beth Moore and Priscilla Schreier and Christine Kane, Lisa Turkhurst, all these big celebrity Bible women who are not teaching the truth of God's word.

25:09

And so sometimes there can be a backlash against that ditch of false teaching, that ditch of antinomianism.

25:18

You'll swing the pendulum too far into the ditch of legalism.

25:22

And so, and just say that women can't teach the Bible at all because it's a backlash against the false teaching.

25:30

And so we have to understand that even if you believe that women should just teach this small area of things to other women, you've got to teach and rightly handle scripture about these things, or all you're going to be doing is the same thing those people you're backlashing against are doing.

25:51

Teaching their own opinions instead of rightly handled in context scripture.

25:58

So you don't wanna be doing the same thing on the legalism side that these false teachers are doing on the antinomianism side.

26:05

So the truth is, I've always found that in almost every case, the truth between these two extremes is in the middle and that's where scripture is, is in the middle.

26:17

So yeah, I would not agree with those who say that you can only teach those certain things that are listed in Titus 2, three through five.

26:27

Yeah.

26:28

And it's interesting, at our church, we talk about the two ditches.

26:31

We say there's a ditch on either side of the road and it's easy to fall into either ditch and you have to stay on the right path and not allow yourself to fall down into those.

26:40

Now I do want to address one other idea because I just wanna pick your brain on this.

26:45

It's following the same concept.

26:50

One of the arguments that is floating around in regard to this subject is that a man's wife should not outpace him in his understanding of God's word, of his understanding of theology and doctrine.

27:08

And so if the husband is, for instance, a dispensationalist, the wife shouldn't be flirting with covenant theology.

27:18

Or if the husband is a Baptist, then the wife shouldn't be flirting with, again, covenant theology.

27:24

I think you'd find a pattern if you keep, shouldn't be flirting with that covenant theology.

27:29

No, I'm covenant, actually I'm new covenant theology, so I'm an odd bird anyway.

27:35

But have you heard that argument that women shouldn't outpace their husband? And what are your thoughts about that? Yes, I've heard that recently.

27:45

And I wanna put the best possible charitable construction on that.

27:50

The reasoning behind that, from what I've heard, is that if your wife is outpacing you in various areas of theology, and she thinks that's the direction that the family should go.

28:03

For example, let's just take baptism, for instance.

28:09

And the wife is reading up on Pato baptism and she's starting to become convinced by Pato baptism instead of Credo baptism.

28:17

If she believes that that is the direction that the family should go, and the husband has not studied up on that yet or whatever, and he's still in the Credo baptism camp, that can cause friction.

28:30

And it can cause a feeling of, well, she's more leading the family than the husband is, if she has strong opinions on that this is the way the family should go.

28:42

And so I think one of the main things is that it causes friction.

28:47

Another thing is that the men who believe this, and I don't wanna generalize too much, but I just wanna be kind and charitable here.

28:57

You know, the Titus 2, 3, 3, 5 says to be kind, so I wanna be kind.

29:02

I believe that some of them believe that if this is the case, then the wife is leading and not the husband, and it threatens the husband's leadership, whether she intends it to or not.

29:15

And I'm sure most women do not intend for that to happen.

29:20

I don't agree with that.

29:23

I agree with it to a little bit of an extent in the regard that when a husband and wife are not in 100% agreement on any theological issue, it can cause friction, and it can cause some things to be disagreed upon that don't need to be disagreed upon.

29:45

But I don't think the solution for that is for the wife to just stop studying until her husband, whenever he has time to catch up.

29:57

I heard a pastor say recently on this subject that his wife was reading a book on some theological topic, and he made her stop because he didn't have time to read that book yet.

30:10

And I thought, well, you know, you make the time.

30:15

If that is an important thing to you, you make the time to read that book and discuss it with your wife and say, okay, here's how I'm gonna lead the family in response to this book or in difference with this book.

30:31

Because your wife is your first priority after your relationship with Christ.

30:36

Your husband is your first priority after your relationship with Christ.

30:39

And if you're too busy to tend to leading your wife in that area, whether it's leading her to agree with whatever that book says or leading her to disagree with whatever that book says, that's your first priority.

30:52

And if you're too busy for that, then you're too busy.

30:56

So yeah, I don't think that's the solution to the conflict that could happen.

31:03

I think what the solution is, is that first of all, and I've written an article on this too, husbands do need to mind what their wives are reading because this is how a lot of them get led away by false teachers, like the ones that I named earlier.

31:17

They pick up a book or they join a Bible study or whatever, and they're led astray by these women who are false teachers.

31:24

So I do think husbands need to be aware of what their wives are reading and studying in scripture and listening to on podcasts and things like that, and make sure that they're not listening to false teachers.

31:35

And also just to know what they're learning about.

31:38

But I think it's really more of a, it's less of an issue of control, which I think is how this comes across a lot of times, is that they're micromanaging their wives every move.

31:51

And so I definitely disagree with that.

31:53

I don't think that's biblical.

31:54

I don't think we see that anywhere in scripture.

31:57

It's less of an issue of control and micromanaging and more of an issue of, hey, let's come together, let's read this book together, let's discuss it together.

32:05

And I'll get your input on what you think about this book, and I'll take that into consideration.

32:11

And then I will prayerfully make my decision about which direction I'm going to lead this family.

32:19

I think that's really more the biblical loving way to do it.

32:23

Husbands are called to love their wives, not control their every move or micromanage them, which again, I'm not saying everybody in that camp is trying to do, but sometimes the way that they say it, it does come across that way.

32:37

So that would be kind of where I'm at on that particular issue.

32:42

Yeah, we talk about the difference between loving and lording over.

32:46

And there is a sense in which some men just seem to be lording over their wives rather than lovingly leading their wives.

32:54

And there's definitely a distinction to be made there.

32:58

Can I just bring in a little scripture here if you don't mind? One of the verses that I keep coming back to on this topic is in Proverbs 31.

33:08

It's Proverbs 31, 11 through 12.

33:12

And it says, and I'm thinking about this in the context of the marriage and in the church as well.

33:19

It says, the heart of her husband trusts in her and he will have no lack of gain.

33:26

She does him good and not harm all the days of her life.

33:31

And a lot of times these husbands, it may just be the way that they're saying these things, but they're coming across as not trusting their wives.

33:43

You certainly need to lead your wife to grow in the Lord and he will lead her to become more and more trustworthy, but you need to trust your wife.

33:53

And the same thing goes for when we were talking about women teaching women's Bible studies earlier, it's very similar in the church.

34:02

One of the things I've mentioned as I've been teaching Titus two, not just three through five, but the whole chapter, I wrote a Bible study on the book of Titus and the structure of it is so interesting that Titus two, one starts off with the umbrella of the pastor's authority, that the pastor is to teach sound doctrine.

34:23

And then everyone else that is mentioned in that chapter, the older men, the younger men, the older women, the younger women, the slaves are all under his authority.

34:32

And the older women as they teach are to be teaching under his authority, teaching the women under his authority.

34:40

And as an outgrowth, an outflow of what he is teaching in the church.

34:49

So, and in order for her to do that, she has to be trustworthy.

34:54

The heart of her pastor has to trust in her for him to be able to entrust the women of his church to her to reinforce what he is teaching.

35:06

And so I think that if some of these men who feel this micromanaging way, or at least seem to be saying these micromanaging things, really want to flesh that out in a biblical way, they will come back towards the middle of the road to trusting these women in their lives who are trustworthy, who have demonstrated themselves to be trustworthy and correctly handle the word and understand the word and handle it in context and all the things of this nature.

35:43

But to trust their wives, trust the women in their church.

35:47

Yeah, no, I think that word trust is a, that is a huge takeaway from what we've talked about today.

35:56

Obviously, as a husband, as a pastor, I'm concerned, and I want to know that what my wife is reading and studying and all those things are sound.

36:06

But at the same time, I trust her.

36:09

In fact, I trust my wife in, you know, like I'll say, she's a very fast reader and she outpaces me in how fast she can read.

36:18

She's amazing.

36:19

So sometimes I'll say, hey, tell me if this book is any good.

36:22

Yeah.

36:23

Like, you know, read this book, tell me if it's any good, or, you know, help me out here because I have a lot of things that I'm doing.

36:29

You know, I'm teaching three or four Bible studies a week.

36:31

I'm reading commentaries and doing other things.

36:33

And so sometimes if I know that the book has, you know, been endorsed by people I trust or something like that, and I know she wants to read something, I, hey, read this and, you know, tell me what you think of it and give me, you know, give me your thoughts.

36:45

So, I mean, in that sense, I'm trusting her.

36:50

Having been, knowing that she has a theological mind, knowing that she has studied and has been, you know, my, in many ways, my prayer partner, my, you know, the person that, you know, what's funny is I actually, I read my sermons to her, not every week, but I read my sermons to her regularly.

37:12

And for two reasons.

37:14

One, she'll tell me if it's no good.

37:17

She's- I'm sure she never told you that.

37:20

Oh, well, she has, the big thing for her is she'll say, I didn't, that didn't make sense.

37:29

And that's helpful because as intelligent as she is, if it doesn't make sense to her, then I know it's not gonna, it's gonna be hard for everybody, right? Because she's a very intelligent woman.

37:38

But at the same time, she's an encourager.

37:43

Sometimes the big, the other second thing she'll say is that's too much.

37:47

She'll say, you're never gonna get through that.

37:51

But you're talking about trusting, you know, the heart of the husband, trusting in his wife.

37:57

That is a blessing.

37:59

And I would go maybe another, just a step out and say, if a man said to me, my wife is outpacing me, I might say to him, whose fault is that? And I understand you have a job.

38:15

I understand you have things to do.

38:16

I understand as a man, you know, you have to have some hobbies in your life, things that allow you to express your, you know, your livelihood, whatever, you have fun.

38:26

But, you know, the Bible tells us that when a woman has, when a wife has a question about the Bible, she should ask her husband.

38:33

And that assumes that her husband knows his Bible.

38:36

Right.

38:37

And so, you know, she should be able to trust him to ask him and he should be a man of God who is seeking to know.

38:45

And that's why we don't just have women's Bible studies.

38:48

We also have men's Bible studies, and we also have sermons and we have podcasts and we have other ways for them to learn because we want the men and the women to grow together in the Lord.

38:59

And if you trust your wife, you trust the spiritually mature godly women in your church, that is how we can be a helpmate to you.

39:09

That is how we can do you good and not harm all the days of your life.

39:13

You don't have time as a husband or as a pastor or both to do everything, you know? And one of the things that I've suggested to women is that they volunteer to their pastors to vet any Bible study materials or Sunday school curricula or whatever that are coming into the church, the discerning women that I know.

39:34

That's a way you can be a sort of fit helper for your pastor because pastors are busy.

39:42

I don't know when you guys even have time to sleep or eat sometimes, you know? And the same thing for husbands and wives.

39:49

You know, my husband asks me all the time, he'll see some preacher on Facebook or whatever and say, what do you know about so-and-so? And I'll say, oh, you wanna stay away from him because this, this, and this, or I've heard him before and he seems to be really good.

40:04

And I can give him that input.

40:07

And then if he wants to take that input and study it further, he can certainly do that.

40:14

A lot of times I will describe the husband-wife relationship when I'm teaching women as, and obviously this is just an analogy so it can't be pushed to the outer limits, but the husband is the chief executive officer.

40:28

The wife is the chief operating officer.

40:31

And we do all those boots on the ground, day-to-day training of the children, running the home and all of that.

40:38

And a lot of the things that we do are to take, is to take things off of our husband's plates to free them up to do the things that they need to do.

40:48

You know, not take inappropriate things off their plates, of course, but to take on the things that we need to take on to help them do their job.

40:57

You know, they've got a role to play, they've got a job to do, and we wanna help them with that because we're created to be their helpers.

41:06

And of course, when we help them, they of course help us right back by doing what they're supposed to be doing.

41:13

So yeah, I really think that, you know, if you don't trust your wife, you don't trust your older godly church women in this way and to this extent that you can entrust them with some things, you're really gonna end up taking a lot of that on yourself and feeling like you have, everything is on your shoulders.

41:36

And I really don't think the Bible bears that out.

41:39

We're supposed to be your helpers.

41:42

You take helping away from us, you've taken a huge chunk of our role away from us that God has prescribed in scripture.

41:51

Of course, that always has to be carried out.

41:53

You know, our helping always has to be carried out according to scripture.

41:57

But God, the reason that God created woman is because he said, it is not good for man to be alone.

42:04

He needs a helper.

42:06

You guys need help.

42:07

I mean, I'm sorry, but you need a lot of help.

42:10

And I say that kind of jokingly, but it's true.

42:12

You've got a lot to do.

42:14

You're responsible for a lot of things and we're there to be your helpers.

42:18

Let us help you in this way, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

42:22

And I love your heart in this and I love the encouragement that you're giving.

42:27

And I know that my wife was very excited that I was going to be interviewing you today.

42:31

And I know she's gonna be excited to hear this and in a lot of ways, I hear a lot of complimentary things between you and her.

42:39

It seems like you do for your husband a lot of what she does for me.

42:42

And it is a wonderful thing to have a godly wife.

42:45

So I know your husband is blessed to have you.

42:48

Well, be sure you tell him that, you know, whenever you need him.

42:51

I sure will, I sure will.

42:54

Well, Michelle, I am very grateful for you coming on the show and talking about this important subject.

42:59

And I think the one key takeaway we could say today is the word trust.

43:04

You know, if there are trust issues in the relationship, maybe that's something that needs to be worked through.

43:08

Maybe those are things that one or the other need to go to the Lord about and try to figure that out.

43:14

But if there is trust and there is submission and there is, you know, a mutual affection for the Lord, then these other things should work themselves out.

43:26

Yes, I agree.

43:28

Yeah.

43:28

Well, again, if you would, just as for anyone who's just tuning in, if someone wants to listen to your podcast or read your blog, give us your information one more time before we come to a close.

43:40

Absolutely.

43:41

My blog also has the link for my website.

43:44

So, I mean, for my podcast.

43:46

So I'll give you that first.

43:47

It's michellesleslie.com.

43:50

It's M-I-C-H-E-L-L-E-L-E-S-L-E-Y.com.

43:55

And the podcast web address is awordfitlyspoken.life.

44:01

And if you can't remember the podcast address, just go to the blog, michellesleslie.com and look in the blue menu bar at the top of the page.

44:08

And there's a tab that says podcast and it'll have the link for the podcast in it for you, so.

44:14

Wonderful.

44:15

Well, thank you again for being with me today.

44:16

And I hope that you will come back again and we'll have another wonderful conversation.

44:20

I would love that.

44:21

And I'm sure my husband would approve.

44:24

Absolutely.

44:24

Absolutely.

44:25

And thank you all again for listening today to Conversations with a Calvinist.

44:29

I wanna remind you that we do have a new podcast that comes out every week and you can find it on all the podcasting platforms as well as the video version on YouTube.

44:40

And you can find that at calvinispodcast.com.

44:42

You can follow me on Twitter at yourcalvinist.

44:45

And if you'd like to support the show, you can go to buymeacoffee.com slash yourcalvinist.

44:51

I wanna thank you again for listening to Conversations with a Calvinist.

44:54

My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.

44:57

May God bless you.