How Do I Get Started with Bitcoin?

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18 plus. Terms and conditions apply. So in other words, Jim, you don't have like, if I was to send you a check from my bank, they're going to hold that check. They're going to put the money, say the money's there, but it's really not there because they're going to hold it for five days to make sure it clears.

You're saying with Bitcoin, it's immediate.

Bitcoin as a Better Money and a Hedge Against Inflation

Welcome to The Wrap Report with your host, Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of striving for eternity in the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Well, welcome to another edition of The Wrap Report. I'm your host, Andrew Rapoport. I am joined with my, well, temporary sidekick, at least. Jim Osmond, how are you, sir? At least one more week. So we're back with some friends from other podcasters from the Christian podcast community, the guys from Bitcoin and the Bible.

If you have not listened to last week's episode, I want to encourage you to go back, download that, and then listen to that one first, because a lot of what we're going to say in this episode is going to build off of what was discussed in the previous episode.

Maybe you tuned in because you're like, Bitcoin, there's lots of talk of Bitcoin, cryptocurrency, things like that, and you're trying to understand it. Well, the last episode is going to give you a really good understanding of what is Bitcoin, why do we look to it, what it provides.

This episode, we want to get really practical and get into how do we set it up, how do we use it, things like that. I ended the last episode by telling a story that you'll hear at the end of that one about how the government can come in and just take your money if they think they're owed your money.

But they can't do that with Bitcoin. That's the thing. You can actually pick up and move across the world and take your Bitcoin with you. You can't do that with gold. The reason you can't do that with gold is because there's this thing called TSA.

And if you haven't been following, I do read a lot of travel blogs, and there's a big problem that people are having. They're trying to transport gold coins, and guess what happens? TSA goes, oh, we think you're doing that for drug purposes.

We need to confiscate this. And once they confiscate it, you never see your gold again. So it's really difficult to travel with gold, but it's really easy to travel with Bitcoin. And so we want to get into this episode with trying to see how do we set this up?

How do we use Bitcoin? There's now at least one country where Bitcoin is the standard for the standard currency. So these are things I think are going to continue. But let's pick up where we left off.

Now, Jim, I know you still had some questions from last week, some rapid fire you wanted to ask Will. So why don't we pick up where we left off with some of your questions you had.

Okay. We all agree that inflation is a bad thing. It's a way that our time, our energy, our efforts, our value is stolen. So what is going to keep Bitcoin from being inflated, for one, or what is going to keep it from dropping in value as people maybe say, you know, this isn't the best medium of exchange?

As a Bitcoin owner, somebody who owns a little bit of Bitcoin and savings, what is my hedge against that inflation? What's going to keep it valuable? Right now, just to make this contemporary, we've seen in the last three weeks or so Bitcoin go from almost $50 ,000 a coin, $47 ,000, down to now under $39 ,000 as of this morning.

It seems like it's dropping in value. What's going to keep it from becoming valueless? And if I've invested all this money and it goes down to zero because nobody wants to use it anymore, or what's going to keep it from being inflated and becoming valueless?

Because there's so many of them that now it's like the US dollar.

Let's handle the easy one first. The easy one is the value going to zero, right? We established in the last episode that all value is subjective, is based on the needs of the marketplace. So the value of the dollar is dropping towards zero because it's being inflated and because people are choosing better money.

What will prevent Bitcoin from going to zero? Because I will be the buyer of last resort. I will always be buying Bitcoin at any price. And why? Because it's better money. Because technologically it's superior, so I will continue to trade US dollars for Bitcoin at any price as often as I possibly can.

And because there is more than one person in the market who, like me, is a rational actor and wants to buy Bitcoin, there is a floor at which the price will not go below. Because as it is dropping, you reach a point where the people who are willing to buy at any price have enough buying power to consume all the available supply.

And now that kind of segues us to the second question of that available supply. Bitcoin has a hard cap of 21 million. What does that mean? That means that the way that the code was written, the way the protocol operates, every 10 minutes when a block is mined, the miner who mines that block is given a reward.

That reward is currently 6 .25 Bitcoin. At the beginning of the network, it was 50 Bitcoin every 10 minutes. And every four years, roughly, or 210 ,000 blocks, the reward is cut in half. So it went from 50 down to 25 and so forth, and it's going to continue to cut out.

So what does that mean? It means that right now, 90%, a little over 90 of the total Bitcoin supply that will ever exist has been created, or like 90 .5 of the total supply of Bitcoin. Because it's halving every four years, the amount that's entering is gradually reducing, and it means that the final Bitcoin rewards won't be mined until the year 2140, approximately.

So what does that mean? It means that basically, for all intents and purposes, all the Bitcoin that's going to exist already exists. And what keeps that from changing? Well, what keeps that from changing is that, because like we discussed, everyone in the system is expected to act in their own best interests, if I'm a miner and I created a new block and I say, hey, you know what?

I gave myself 100 Bitcoin instead of 6 .25. What are you going to do about it? Well, the rest of the network says, I'll tell you what I'm going to do about it. I'm going to discard that block and I'm not going to trust it.

That's not a valid block. You didn't follow the rules of protocol. And why would I let you have that block? Why did I let you have those Bitcoins? Because one, that breaks the rules of the system, which is going to break trust in the system.

But more importantly, that gives you more Bitcoin than you're supposed to have, which deflates the value of my Bitcoin, right? So if I let you do that, I'm acting against my own best interests. And every node in the world that's running, of which anyone can run one, I run a pair of nodes at my house.

So there are millions of them. Millions of them. Out there running. They are validating every block and they check it. So I hear about a block. My node hears about a block. It examines it, checks to make sure that the coins haven't, you know, that are, that have been spent, are using the correct signatures.

No one, no one cheated. And assuming that all of those rules were followed, then it says, okay, cool. I'm going to tell everybody else that I know about this block. And it propagates through the network.

But if it gets one that's invalid, it goes, well, that's a waste of time. I don't know whoever spent the time making that block wasted it. And it just discards and doesn't tell anybody. And it dies right there.

It's kind of self pruning. So that's what handles the inflation is that it's a, it's a self regulating system because it's in the interest of every participant in the system to ensure that nobody gets a leg up.

No one gets to be the money printer. So you either have the world right now where someone gets to print the money and it's not you, or you have Bitcoin where nobody gets to print the money and it's still not you.

So to, to key off on that question, then if, if there's only 21 million of them that will ever be available. And probably I would think that between the five of us, we would own at least one Bitcoin amongst the five of us.

That doesn't seem like a lot of Bitcoin to go around the entire world. How is there, there's just not going to be enough for all of us.

Yeah. So when we talk about a Bitcoin, what we're really talking about is 100 million Satoshis. So a Satoshi is currently the smallest unit of Bitcoin. Think of it like cents to the dollar. One dollar has a hundred cents.

They're 100 million cents or Satoshis in a Bitcoin, a Bitcoin the way we refer to it, the nomenclature wise is just a, a way to measure an amount of Bitcoin, right? But you can buy $1 worth of Bitcoin.

That'll get you, you know, 2000 Satoshi or 2000 saps is what we would say worth of Bitcoin. So it's super divisible. It's digital. You could keep dividing it. And if that was ever not enough Satoshis to divide enough, you could just increase the decimal place, right?

It'd be kind of like having, you know, 10th of a penny. It's not like it makes more money. It just makes the money easier to break into smaller units.

Bitcoin Divisibility, Volatility, and the Nature of Money

Yeah. And that was going to be one of the questions I was going to ask you because people might be thinking like he, Jim just mentioned like $40 ,000 for Bitcoin. I can't afford that. No, you're, you buy a fraction of it.

You don't buy a full bit. I mean maybe some people buy a full Bitcoin, but if you, you know, like, so what do you do though with like with Jim's question, what do you do when you have Elon Musk saying, well I'm going to buy tons of Bitcoin.

Can he buy all of it?

Well, just to give a little flavor and some real world numbers to this, right? There's, there's 7 .9 billion people around the earth right now, right? If you just did a basic math that divide that by 21 quadrillion Satoshis, right?

It's roughly about 250 ,000 Satoshis per person, right? So there's obviously plenty enough divisibility in that. And in the future of being able to subdivide that digitally further, if necessary to, to ensure that global commerce, global trade could exist on a monetary system that is, that is purely digital and demand is, is part of the problem and part of the solution, right?

In other words, we've all pointed to the reality that the price of the asset, the convertibility of that asset between us dollars or whatever currency you happen to live in to Bitcoin is going to be a function of the market and, and the volatility that you referenced there, Jim, the fact that that Bitcoin goes up really, really, really fast and then it goes back down.

And sometimes you can see five, 10, 15 drops in a single day or 20, 30, 40 drops over the course of a couple of months is something that I feared. Right. I'll stand up at a minute. When I first got into it, I looked at that and go, wow, how is that a store of value?

Right. But I think what we've been conditioned by is a system that has been so carefully over-engineered and controlled that there is no volatility in it. Right. When, when governments have the ability to both issue debt, and then buy it back from themselves, essentially, that's what the federal reserve gets to do to be able to maintain their desired inflation rate and their liquidity for the banks around the world right there.

They are controlling the money supply so heavily that there is no volatility. And we draw an analogy, right? We are, we are living breathing organisms that God has created and, and they're living breathing organisms have feedback mechanisms that respond to their circumstances, right?

Our temperature rises. And when we have a fever, we have lots of those feedback mechanisms in us. And that's a volatile system, right? So when you see volatility, what do you see? You see life, you see what God has created and you see the people that God has created in that system, exercising their free and independent rights in emotional ways.

Yes. Right. And then fear and obviously excitement drive those markets. But I think what we really want to encourage Christians to see here in, in Bitcoin is not necessarily the price volatility and say, that's what you're trusting.

Okay. So this is the security. This is the number one question that I get when I talk to people about Bitcoin is, but there's all this change. What, what causes that change? Like you just mentioned all this via viability that you can, it can be up 15 down 15 and P that makes everybody nervous, as you said.

But the thing that I find most people say is, well, what is causing that change? Where does it get the fluctuation from?

It's a free and open market. So the dollar prices arrived at every moment by willing buyers and willing sellers.

So if there's more buyers than sellers, then the price goes up. If there's more sellers than buyers, then the price goes down.

And the system operates 24, seven, three 65, you know, go to the bank on a Saturday and try to send money anywhere. Right. And it, and it can't happen. And it'll charge the caution arm and a leg by the time it finally gets there next week,.

Bitcoin facilitates the movement of money almost instantaneously worldwide, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 and a quarter days a year.

Dave, you said something a while ago, and we were talking between episodes here off recording about people giving their money, putting their money in a bank. And what they're really after is the ability to move it digitally.

Explain that a little bit and how Bitcoin does that. Just one step removed.

Sure. I mean, you, most people have their money direct deposited into their bank account. Why? Well, because they, they don't want to take a paper check and, you know, go to the bank and stand in line and deposit it.

But why do you put your money in the bank? I mean, there's a certain sense that you put it in there because it's more, you know, quote secure. In other words that, you know, somebody's not gonna knock you on the head and take it.

And we can deal with that aspect. But primarily the reason people put their money in the bank is because they want to digitize it so that they can move it around, you know, the world and for commerce purposes.

And so they can, they can, they can pay a bill. They can pay their credit card. They can order on Amazon and never have to touch. They never have to touch the physical money. They can order something on Amazon.

Amazon takes it out of the credit card. The bank pays the credit card company with the money that you deposited it. That convenience really is the only, what you're doing with your money when you put it in a bank is you're basically purchasing is the wrong word, but you're exchanging that money for the convenience of being able to move it just like that.

Anywhere you want in the, in the world.

Right. You're, you're buying into the interconnected digital monetary system of the world and you're paying a high price to be able to do that for sure. But that's, that's what you're after. I mean, you want to be able to get a pizza on a Friday night and, and, you know, so you do it online and you put in a credit card number and the pizza shows up at your door.

And, and Bitcoin is another way of doing that, but we're taking the bank and thus the government control of the bank out of that picture because we're taking our U S dollars. We're exchanging them for the digital currency.

And now you, I, you and I could send money to one another. We're separated by five miles. You and I could send money to one another right now, instantly through Bitcoin through the Bitcoin network digitally.

And I'm not re I'm not requiring the bank to be the intermediator to get the money from me and then turn around and give it to your bank and have your bank then give it to you.

So in other words, Jim, you don't have like if I was to send you a check from my bank, they're going to hold that check. They're going to put the money, say the money's there, but it's really not there because they're going to hold it for five days to make sure it clears.

You're saying with Bitcoin, it's immediate or it's almost immediate.

Bitcoin is a bearer. Yeah. Bitcoin is a bearer instrument. It's so it's, it's settlement is final credit cards, settlement on a credit card. If you're a merchant and you're selling through a credit card, the banks can clawed back for up to a month from you.

So the, it takes a very long time to get settlement. If you send a wire transfer somewhere, it's not final settlement. There are days before that money is finally settled and it can't be clawed back with a Bitcoin transaction.

Once it's buried into the block. So you wait for, you know, the rule of thumb is you wait for three blocks. So it was about 30 minutes and you've got final settlement. It never can be clawed back.

And with the lightning network, which is a different subject altogether. Don't you want to get into it? That is almost an immediate exchange of money from peer to peer.

So let me ask you guys, I mean, you know, will you mentioned mining? What is mining? I mean, we hear this a lot and people have no clue what that is. What is, what do you mean when you say bit miners and things like that?

So mining is the process of they, a Bitcoin miner will take transactions that are pending. They'll collect them together. They'll stick them into a, into a block, a group of transactions. They will then reference the previous block in the chain.

And then they will put in a, a random number that they have found that then when you when you hash the block, which is a, it's a one way cryptographic function. You end up with, with a certain value. And I know that's going to go over the heads of most everybody, but let's, let's think of it this way.

They are looking for, imagine if you had a magical shredder and you could put a piece of paper in, it would shred it and outcomes a number and it's a random number and you have no idea what the number is going to be.

So they guess a random number and then they hash the whole block and they are hoping that the number that comes out of this random number generator, which is predictable. Every time you put the same inputs in, you'll get the same output.

They're hoping that it is lower than a certain target difficulty. Why, why are they doing that? They're doing that so that the difficulty is adjusted automatically such that a new block takes 10 minutes to find based on all of the miners, all guessing simultaneously all around the world, trying to find this random number that's going to make it true that it's less than this target number.

It's about 10 minutes of work to do that. So mining is the process of expending all of this energy in order to find the random number that makes this block valid. The reason that you want to do that is because again, there's no good way.

There's no tangible way to tie a digital asset to the real world. If you didn't have all that proof of work and you just had a sequence of blocks that referenced one another, but there was no work involved, then I could trivially go back in time and rewrite all of history just like that, right?

Go back to the very beginning and change the order of transactions and do all of those things. And you wouldn't be able to prove that that had, you know, that wasn't the real history by expending real world effort, real world work into, into finding these 10 minute blocks.

When I look back in history, I can say, okay, I know that that block must really be this old because there's no way that someone could have expended enough energy to mine all of the intermediate blocks in a faster amount of time than it purports to be.

And these are all done on special purpose computers. So maybe that's something that, you know, this is a good place as any to shoehorn in there. It's not like Google with their data centers could jump in here and rewrite the, you know, the chain, these, these ASIC computers have only one function and their function is to, is to generate the hashing for these blocks.

It's called an ASIC, an application specific integrated circuit. If Google and Amazon and Microsoft and everybody turned all of their data centers and tried to attack Bitcoin simultaneously, all of their computing power would not even make a dent in the, in Bitcoin's network.

And see one of my fears always of getting into Bitcoin. I remember when Bitcoin was a thousand dollars and I was in jujitsu and one of the guys in jujitsu was getting into it, trying to get me into it.

And I was like a thousand dollars for one coin. And I was fearful. And my big argument then is, or I have a background in computer science and I said, once you get into crypto, you know, into a quantum computing, I mean, the first thing hackers are going to look to do is going to go after the, you know, after Bitcoin.

Now, one of the things with that is I ended up realizing, wait, you know, that you wouldn't have the hackers because you know, quantum computers are going to be very, very expensive. So you'd have the Googles and those, but they would probably get in trouble getting caught doing that.

So you'd have the government, but guess what? If the government is the ones doing that, they already went after your fiat money anyway, that was the easier one for them to do. But, but I ended up realizing there's many people that are now getting involved with Bitcoin and quantum computing to try to make sure that when quantum computing does come out and folks, you don't know quantum computing, it's just, it's basically just using tons of processors to attack one, one piece of work.

And when you start doing the Bitcoin with that, that's going to be the protection. But, you know, let me ask this because I want to get into, well, how do we set this up? But as you and I, as you guys and I have talked, you know, months ago, you guys have a very particular view.

It's Bitcoin only. I mean, what do you, what do you have against Elon Musk's doge coin or this guy who's got the house though? He calls it the one and he's, he's turning that into a couple of square inches of his house.

Each square inch is going to be a coin. And there's all these other currencies out there, Ethereum and all these others that people talk about. Why Bitcoin? Why not them? What makes Bitcoin different?

All the others are frauds. That's a good short summary. Wow. You, you sound like, you sound like Jim when he, when he's, when someone asks him about some cults, well, they're just a fraud. Okay. Move on.

So I think that a little bit longer answer answering the same end result of it's a fraud. We can broadly take cryptocurrencies and a cryptocurrency would be loosely defined as just a, a piece of technology that is attempting to use cryptography, which is some advanced mathematics to secure it.

We can broadly divide cryptocurrencies by those that are trying to be money and those that are not trying to be money of those that are trying to be money. There is a network effect to money, right? Why is it that gold was the best money?

And everyone converged on gold as being the best money because money functions better when everyone's using the same money, right? So all the fiat currencies exist by fiat, their governments declared that they are the 10, you know, the legal tender you must pay taxes in because they want to be the ones that hold the keys to the printer.

But in general, money wants to converge on a single best money. All monies are in competition and Bitcoin has massive dominance. We're talking like 98 dominance of all of these cryptocurrencies that want to be money.

And when we talked about the security, security was derived from the amount of effort and work that goes, that gets put into them. There is massive security behind Bitcoin because there's a massive amount of work put into Bitcoin.

Why? Because Bitcoin is the leader. It's got the, it's got the first mover advantage and not just the first mover advantage. It is the it is the, the predominant form of digital money. And if I am looking at, okay, I'm going to spend real world costs to mine either Bitcoin or something else.

Well, there's no value to most of these other coins. They're worthless by market cap. So if there's no value to it, then I might as well not mine it because it's not worth it. And if it's not worth it to mine it, then there's no security.

And if there's no security to the network, then the value doesn't come. And if there's no value, then there's no one mining and you get this vicious cycle downward pushing all of the other currencies down.

And that same, that same cycle inverted is what pushes Bitcoin upward, right? There's security. So there's people investing into it. There's people investing in and trying to buy it and save in it, which drives the value up, which makes it more appealing for people to mine, which means that they start mining and the security budget goes up and it, you know, kind of lifts the whole system so that that takes care of the, the monetary applications, right?

So then there are these cryptos that want to be an application platform and they want, you know, there's DeFi and all of these other things, scams. They don't work because the incentives don't work. So the B at the beginning, they just copied Bitcoin's consensus code.

They were going to be proof of work coins, just like Bitcoin. So the problem with that is that the higher the price of Bitcoin, the more security there is because there's more incentive to mine. The higher the price of Ethereum, the more expensive it is to do transactions on the Ethereum network because ether is the native token of the Ethereum chain.

And it's consumed as like, as a gas when, when you use it. Well, if the price of Ethereum goes up, then it's more expensive to do transactions on the network. Well, if it's more expensive to do transactions on the network, then the miners like it because you know, they want to make more money, but the application users, they don't like it because now all of a sudden it's more expensive to do things, right?

So what are they going to do? Well, they're just going to take their application and they're going to move it to another chain that is a little bit faster and a little bit cheaper because there's no cost to doing that.

I have a Twitter account and a Facebook account. Why? Because it's trivial. I can use as many applications as I want with my money. I can only be in one place. I either have my money in Bitcoin or I have it in something else.

So the proof of work system didn't work. So Ethereum is, and a lot of the other coins are trying to move to a proof of stake system to avoid the security problem, right? Nobody wants to mine them in the, in the numbers they want to mine Bitcoin, the incentives are misaligned, which drives the price up.

So, okay. Proof of stake. How does that work? What we'll do is we'll take the people who have the most money invested in the system and we will put them in charge of validating transactions or rephrase another way.

We're going to let the rich enforce the rules. Make them and enforce them. Where have I heard that before? Where have I heard of a system where the rich and powerful get to rewrite the rules on a whim and the, the poor people just get screwed over constantly.

The proof of stake system is just a reimplementation of the current fiat system, but with new rulers. And the, the way that these application chains work is a decentralized system is slow because it's hard to reach consensus globally in a trustless way.

So then a new coin comes along and it's a little bit less decentralized, which makes it cheaper and faster. So people move to that, which incentivizes another chain to come along that's a little bit less decentralized and it's a little bit cheaper and faster and everybody moves to that.

And that continues to happen as you move towards a fully centralized system that's just cheap and fast. And, and the, the problem is the incentive structure of all of these other things is misaligned and drives negative outcomes.

And so all of these, all of these other systems are just economically and engineering perspective wise, they're doomed to failure.

How to Buy Bitcoin and Set Up a Wallet

Okay. So then let me ask now that you convinced me I should do Bitcoin, right? How do I get set up on Bitcoin? What is the, do I need to set up a wallet? Are there, are there ways to set this up easily?

Because when we talk about this, right, we could talk about a wallet and the importance there is, you know, like for my son, for example, he has a, you know, a, basically a flash drive that's his wallet.

Okay. That he could take with him anywhere. Loses that. He loses all of his money, right? All that Bitcoin is just gone. And so what becomes the, is there other ways of doing it? Is there an advantage to keeping it on a device like that?

And then you got to make sure you never lose your password. So, so if you're someone prone to forgetting your password or not tracking things, well, that may be a problem, right? Because you can't get this back, right?

There's no way to have to, there's no like I forgot my password button when it comes to Bitcoin. So what are some different ways to set up Bitcoin? And if you could go from like the easiest way to set up for, for brand new users to the more difficult way that's more secure, you know, which is going to be where you have your wallet and it's on that, that drive that you can carry around with you, which by the way, would be easy to walk up, you know, out of this country, go to another country and all your, your Bitcoin stays the same, which then that's one of the things here, right?

Your dollar's going down. This is one of the things actually, I don't know how much you guys have studied of world war II and all, but when, when the world war II and all was going on, you know, Einstein got the Nobel prize, which was a million dollars.

Although once by the time they actually gave it to him in German money, it was almost, it was like half the money because the value went down. But if they gave it to him in Bitcoin with him being here in America, he could have just taken that Bitcoin, walked into America and it would have the same value in America as it did in Germany.

Once he left where the German mark didn't. So, so go from easiest to hardest in the setup for us.

Sure. I'll tackle that one and I'll just reassure those who are listening, just if I can do this, so can you. I struggled with this very concept a year and a half ago when Will introduced me to it and I was scared.

I had no idea. I mean, what, I had no idea what even website to go to. I had no idea how it was purchased. I had no idea how it was stored custody. And I can go from zero to where I am today within that period of time because there's great resources out there.

And, and we at Bitcoin and the Bible podcast reinforced that Bitcoin is about work. It's based upon work and, and education is the work that you will put into it. And then when you put in the work, you will get the value back out of it.

That's the way God has designed his, his world to work. So we would recommend to you that you self-educate and we provided some great resources. If you go to our website, bitcoininthebible .com, we have written a Bitcoin startup guide document.

Jim actually helped me with that. So thank you again, Jim, you, your work is paying it forward for all of those who are listening to Andrew sign up and buy Bitcoin.

The thing is I was just the idiot who read it and I said, this is confusing to me because I'm a complete moron. Can you make this clearer? And you clarified it. And that was the work I put into. It was just me being stupid was my contribution.

Well, you're, you're minimizing that, but the good news, the good news is right. We, we, we want people to think about buying Bitcoin in terms of the easiest, the simplest ways to get started. But, but before you start, we also want you to think about it in terms of a couple other things, right?

How private do you want to be? And do you want your customer information, your banking information associated with it? Or do you need for some reason or other for that to not be associated with it? Maybe I'm envisioning a missionary who's living in a closed country and, and can't take advantage of easy banking setups in the U S right.

So obviously our Bitcoin startup guide is written for people who are in the U S who don't mind their information being associated with the basic amount of information that their U S bank accounts are associated with.

If you find yourself in a different category, then obviously get in touch with us. And we'd be happy to walk you through some of the more private, more secure ways that you could access and get access to Bitcoin without your information being attached to it.

But from a very simple perspective, you're going to set up an account with a company that allows you to purchase Bitcoin. We typically discourage working with companies that, that delve into the old coins for the very same reasons that we'll just outline for you.