Is Supporting a Pastor the Role of the Local Church

Open Air Theology on Supporting Pastors and the Local Church

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Hi, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Jeff Rice. And this is Open Air Theology. I'm about to hit the wrong button. Okay, here we go. My name is Jeff. This is Open Air Theology. I'm one of the elders of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

If you're ever in the area, please come and check us out. And I'm going to pass it down to the man holding a bear.

That's right. Can you guys hear me?

Yeah, I can hear you.

Yeah, I apologize first and foremost for my camera. I just got on here just a second ago. And my computer is giving me a fit right now. So hopefully in the future I'll have that fixed. So I'm going no camera today.

But my name is Brayden Patterson. I'm the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho. We meet on Sundays, the Lord Day, at 11 in the morning. If you live in the area, it would be a real blessing to see you there.

I also have a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex-Mormon. Go check that out. And just super blessed to be a part of Open Air Theology. So I would point in a direction to pass it, but I'll pass it to Tom.

Hey, my name is Tom Shepherd. I'm with Grace Bible Church of Burney, Texas. I'm the host of the Even If None podcast and co-host of Open Air Theology. Glad to be with you guys tonight. And I'm going to pass it down to the apologetic dog.

Oh, woof, woof, woof.

Fellas, thanks for having me on at 10 p .m. at night. You know, kind of had a free evening. I love my wifey, but she's not here. So I'm allowed to stay up a little bit later if you know what I mean. So I am pastor and elder at 12 .5 Church amongst a plurality of elders in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

We are a church plant, and I guess the church plant's about three and a half years old now. I think in September it will be four years. Truly amazing. Like y 'all were talking about, if y 'all are anywhere, if anyone's in the northeast Arkansas area, guess what, fellas?

12 .5 Church is the only Reformed Baptist church in my hometown. We love our Presby brothers, but we differ on many things. And so just kind of getting to share with people what Reformed theology looks like, the love, the doctrines of grace, really the doctrines of love.

We're finally being able to be a voice in these ways, and people are like, huh, we've never heard it explained like that. So it's been incredible down here in the Deep South.

Very cool, man. That's really cool that you are working on your fourth year at CRBC. So on May 31st, we were four years as a church plant. So we just got y 'all by a little bit.

Yes, y 'all are paving the way.

Yeah.

The Role of the Local Church in Supporting Pastors

So tonight's topic, controversial, yay, nay, maybe, shouldn't be. Shouldn't be, should a, well, let me put it the way that it is, right? Is supporting a pastor the role of the local church? So after I had made that topic, Brayden sent some other names of the topics that I was like, man, crap, I already made it.

Brayden, do you remember some of those names that you sent?

Oh, yeah, a muzzled ox, the threshing floor, things along those lines.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just having fun with it. But, yeah, I think it's something that needs to be discussed. Tom brought it up. And so I was like, yeah, man, sounds like a good idea. Let's let's go through it.

And so what we want to do is we want to see not only our opinions on it, but I mean, because that is definitely secondary or tertiary even to what the Bible says. And I would say and then secondary would be what our confession says.

So let's dive into it, Tom.

Yeah, yeah.

So this is something you wanted to talk about.

Yeah, the reason I want to talk about it, well, I think it's a shame because there are many men who are shepherding a flock. And Scripture says in 1st Timothy 5, 17, it says the elder who leads well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor at preaching the word and teaching.

And the subject really got me going because two of my friends here, you know, pastor churches. And when I when I heard how much they were making, I was like, how in the world? This is this is criminal.

It really is criminal because you guys are doing performing a role, a God given role to be able to shepherd the flock, to care for people's souls. And I can't think of a more a more needed job, a more worthy job, a more noble job than that.

And the amount of time and I know for myself, my pastors will give you an example. Mike Michael Beck at Grace Bible Church in Birney. He works tirelessly. He has he has his wife and they have they have 10 children and he's got 200 members or not members, but 200 attendees at the church.

And the amount of work he puts in for the sermons a week, probably 20, 30 hours there just just for one sermon. That's not including equipping classes. That's not including counseling. That's not including all the books that he's reading for study.

It's it's it's a it's a tremendous amount of work. I mean, there's there's no off days. There are no there are no rest times. I mean, you could get called in the middle of the night. You have to be there all the time.

So, yeah, he needs to be paying. He paid double. He needs to be compensated double. And for people to make can't even make ends meet who are shepherding a flock like that is just it's just horrible. So that's why I wanted to talk about it.

And then there's other other topics I want to talk about as well. But that kind of leads us in there.

Very cool.

Jeremiah, do you have a position on this? I mean, so you are a church. You know, you're part of a church plant. You're three, three and a half years before September. What's your view on this?

I had my fingers crossed. I was like, I hope me and Tom are on the same side of this.

And we are. It's hard to argue with Tom, right?

I know. And, you know, it feels a little bit bad because I'd never want to come across self-serving. But like Tom did, we go to a passage in First Timothy, Chapter five. And this is why I try to tell people special.

So just to be transparent with you all, twelve five pays me part time. And I'm one of the elders that labors constantly in the preaching and teaching. And my heart to twelve five has has been if we look at First Timothy five, this should be the desire of a healthy church.

Right. So I don't want to pay me full time before the time is right. But that should be the aim of their heart to take care of their under shepherds that labor in these things relentlessly. And so what I've told my church body, because they are we're always talking about the budget.

We're always they're always saying kind things to me. They take care of my family and I'm the one that's told them, hey, let's wait until God's providence. The door opens to where the budget makes sense to do that.

Because in the meantime, I don't mind to build tents. And so my full time job is a hospice chaplain. And yeah, I work grueling days and all that. And I don't want sympathy from people. But my heart is that one day God opens that door to be full time at twelve five church.

My church family knows that. And we're always talking about what that looks like. And the apologetics ministry has been able to bring in some other monies. And, you know, I'm just what do we say, Jeffrey?

It's just stokes in the fire. Like I can trust God. I want I want my energies just to be poured out for the kingdom of God. And so I'm really trusting him with that. But full circle, healthy church should be striving to take care of their under shepherds.

Yeah. So what do you do when when you have. Would you say that it is a if it's a burden for Christians to attend a church and and they're not they're not paying their their their shepherd adequately? Is that definitely a mark of an unhealthy church?

Oh, yes. I mean, it's it's wrong. Yeah, it's unhealthy. And it more than likely stems from sin. You know what I mean? And I don't want to just broad blanket all the church. Because you got some church plants that that can't yet, but they're striving to.

Right. So if you have a church that's not paying their pastors well, if they look at it as, hey, your duty is really just working one day a week. And I mean, there's other foundational problems going on because you read the text.

I mean, right. Worthy of double honor. I mean, don't let them have to worry about their financial situation so they can spend more time laboring and preaching and teaching.

Yeah. So one of the things I was I wanted to touch on here in verse 17, it says the elders who lead well. And one of the things if we expect the shepherds to lead well, they're going to have to have to spend some time in their job, aren't they?

They're going to have to spend some time in the scriptures. They're going to have to spend their time discipling the people in their church. This is. And so when you're when when an elder, when a pastor is being taken away from opportunity to immerse himself in the scriptures, to immerse himself in the body whom he's shepherding, it it's hard to do it well.

So and I'm going to use you, Jeff, because you're here and I can see you. And I don't see anybody else besides Jeremiah.

But you have the picture of his mustache, right?

Yeah. Yeah. You're welcome. We'll go there. And the bear. Just think of the bear. But Jeffrey, every time, you know, we spend a lot of time with each other throughout the day. And the man gets up in the morning and he's working on Bibles.

That's what he does all day. And then, you know, hey, we want to get on the phone. We want to talk. And we and we do. But the rest of the time is for his family and study. And from seven o 'clock in the morning to twelve o 'clock at night.

I mean, it's how do you sustain that? And it's because he has to provide for his family to be able to live. And at the same time, he has has a has a church that he has to shepherd. And it's it's a tall order, man.

It's a special order. It has to be. You know, God has to only only give that grace. That's the only way that I can imagine doing it.

Yeah. So for me personally, so again, so we just came up on our fourth year as a church plant. So, I mean, so so we are, you know, relatively small, right? It is starting to grow. For the most part, we do good paying our bills.

You know, like just talking about the church or you.

Yeah. I mean, at the church. Right. Yeah. So our our bills run a little bit over two thousand dollars a month and stuff like that. So that's rent, lights, water, so on and so forth. We have we have gas heat, so we have to pay for the gas and stuff like that.

And so it's probably about twenty four hundred dollars a month. The building is like fifteen hundred dollars a month. We got a really good deal on it, actually. And so so so the church got to where they could pay me seven hundred dollars a month before we got this building.

And I opted out of receiving that payment so that we could afford the building. And so that was, you know, they would have been paying me the whole time, seven hundred dollars a month. But I wanted to have a building instead of just having a building that we were renting for one day a week.

And so the last two months they were able to give me seven hundred dollars. So in the last four years, I've had four months of seven hundred dollars in four months. But at the same time, so so I do I work forty five, fifty hours a week in the Bible rebinding.

That's probably if you know who I am, that's probably what you know me from. You probably don't know me from from doing theology or pastoring or anything like that. It's it's more than likely it's just from from doing the Bible.

Right. I did a Bible for a guy named James White. Some of y 'all might know him. And that put me on the map. And so I'm known worldwide, actually, because of my of my Bible rebinding business. And I'm blessed.

And if that's what I have to do, as long as I live to provide for my family, I'll do that. For those of y 'all know me, I've moved houses for a majority of my life, 25 years, a little over 25 years professionally.

And and I'm no longer allowed to get on roost because I got banal positional vertigo. So I get dizzy all the time and it's not good to be on a roof and be dizzy. And so the Lord put me into the position to pastor.

And so I took that on. And and so the church that planted us were not able to help provide for us financially. And so we come up on our fourth year and come in this September. The church will vote to see whether or not they'll keep me as their pastor.

And if they do keep me, that'll be great. And at the same time, I'm not sure how many more years I can. I, you know, like. I mean, I'm trying to keep up the pace because I am working 45, 50 hours a week.

I'm having to stay up till 12, sometimes one o 'clock in the morning to study. And, you know, I would be lying if I tell you that it was easy. It's not. I just turned 44. I'm getting old. Whenever I bend over now, I have to kick one of my legs out.

And one of you, I don't know if you're experiencing that, Jeremiah. But every time I bend over, I have to kick a leg out. One day I'm going to trip somebody or kick somebody in the rear or something like that.

But I'm, you know, like like age is catching up with me. And I just don't know if the Lord doesn't if the Lord doesn't grow our church to where they're able to financially support me. I don't know how much longer I can keep doing it.

I mean, I'm sure I got another four or eight years, four to eight years in me. But as far as this being something that I do long term, I'm not 100 percent sure if the Lord keeps the church the size that it is.

And and the money and what's coming in the way that it is like this is not something I'm going to be able to do, you know, 20, you know, 10, 20, 10, 20 years from now.

It's just do you guys think that it's a matter of of of the people in the church not being able to afford giving or is it is it something deeper? Is it a matter of the heart? Do they really not know what's at stake?

Do they understand the amount of work that they're going through? Do they understand that, you know, the cup of coffee, that's that's 20 bucks, you know, that you spend a week on a week is will help your pastor if they were to give 20 bucks a week?

Because some people don't give it all.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Most people for them. Well, so I don't dabble into the financials. I always say that the pastors need to stay away from the money and the honeys. Right. It's kind of like a rule that I live by.

Get away from the money. Right, because that's what usually, you know, like if you if you go over the history of the church, it's usually the downfall of all ministers. Right. And so, I mean, I do want to be able to do this full time.

I mean, how much more could I do if I was full time? And then Braden was talking about this the other day. Him and I, we work in order to pastor. Right. So Braden's a fireman. He works full time. And I do this.

And Braden, you can chime in about this. But but him and I, we work in order to pastor. And it's tough. And we're trying to do big at CRBC. We're trying to do big things as a small church. We have these conferences and stuff like that.

We're trying to do the work of, you know, of an evangelist. Again, I go out weekly or every two weeks. I go out and I do the work of an evangelist. I don't feel like I'm called as an evangelist. Let me put that out there.

But I go out and I do the work of evangelist. I knock on doors. I stand on the streets, on the street corners. I proclaim the gospel. And I work, I put about, I don't know, 12, 15, 20 hours a week in my study and to prepare the message.

And it's tough. I'm not going to lie. It's absolutely tough. Braden, we work to pastor. What do you got to say about that?

Yeah, I completely echo exactly what you just said on that. And I don't think that's something that people realize. The desire and the want to do a lot more in ministry is being tamed by our work schedule.

It's being pulled back. It's not able to be done because there's just so much. There's only so much workload that you can put on somebody's shoulders. And while it's good to have broad shoulders, it's good to be stretched.

It's good to work hard in those ways. If a pastor, yeah, I would just say it's a challenge, right? Like you said, we work so we can pastor. If I wasn't working, I couldn't be pastoring. That's what it comes down to.

And I think that's when you think about the whole reason, in my opinion, I'm curious about what you guys would say about that. But 1st Timothy 5, what we already read, 1st 17 and 18, So what would be the reason of allowing an ox not to be muzzled while it's threshing?

What is the picture that Paul is getting at with young Pastor Timothy? What is the purpose of an ox eating some of the produce that the farmer is going to be receiving from the work that this ox is putting in?

What is the purpose of that? And I think the purpose of it is to nourish the oxen so it can keep on doing more work. So it gathers more work. I mean, you think about the coffee shop analogy. We put $20 in for coffee, and why do we do that?

So we can get more energy, so we can do more work. Yet we don't see that same principle when it comes to the person that's preaching. If we gave more towards them so that they weren't entangled in secular affairs, it would mean that they could perform more ministry and more work for the kingdom of God.

And I think that that's what's going on there in 1st Timothy 5.

Yeah, if you have an ox treading the grain, I mean, if you have an ox working the field, but he's not able to partake in what's being done there, like treading the grain, he's going to fall over and die.

Yep.

He's not going to be able to continue.

So look at the job the ox is doing as well. He's threshing the grain. If that ox had to do work elsewhere, he wouldn't be threshing the grain.

That's right.

So that's my question is, can a pastor, and hard question because you guys are bivocational, can you do two jobs full-time well? Can a person, it's not ideal, obviously. How much better would it be if you could devote all of your time to ministry, I would think?

So I guess the question is, can you do it well, two jobs well, working full-time in each job?

I'd be more than happy to say you can try, but no, you can't. I think doing it well is, that's what you're doing is you're threshing the floor. And if you have something that's entangling you from being able to do that, you are not performing well.

You might be able to do it. You might be able to stretch thin enough on it, but it's going to burn you out. You are going to be that ox that falls over and dies eventually from it. That's just how bivocational ministry typically goes.

Yeah, I would echo that. And I would just add, and y 'all probably heard me say this before. Right now, I'm not doing anything well. I'm doing a lot of things, but I'm not doing anything well. Before I took on this pastor position, I was the leading guy in Bible rebinding.

I was always, because there's a new rebinder, I think, every day, right? And because of the work that I have done in the past, it has set a standard. And so all these new guys, they've copied my work, and they have caught up to my work.

But before I took on the rebinding, I was always innovating. I was always doing something new. I was a step ahead of everyone. I'm no longer a step ahead of people because I don't have time to be a step ahead of people.

I was able to earn more money in rebinding because I was able to produce more work because I could work longer in the day, and I would have the evenings to spend with my family. Now I have to get off at a certain time.

I get off at 4, and from 4 to 8, I devote that to my family. And then from 8 to 12, sometimes 1 o 'clock in the morning, I'm studying. And so I'm constantly being like there is no real transitional period from one thing to another, right?

When I get off work, I like to smoke a cigar. No, I can't do that because this is the time that I have with my family, right? And so I'm not doing anything well. Even as I'm working, I'm having to listen to books on the subject that I'm going to be studying that night, right?

I have to listen to commentary during the day so I can prepare myself for the night. And as I'm hanging out with my family, I got the work that I needed to do today that I failed and didn't get done. I got these Bible verses in my head that I'm trying to contemplate.

So I'm trying to hang out with my family the whole time. I got all this other crap in my head, right? And so when I get into the pulpit, I always feel inadequate because I know that I could have studied more, done more, said something better.

I do not feel like I did anything well. Now, if you ask my family, they'll probably agree with me. I mean, let me be really transparent with you. I mean, before I started pastoring, we were making way over $50 ,000 a year.

I think it was like $50 ,000, $55 ,000 a year. We're under, we're about $45 ,000 a year right now. We've lost a lot of money since I took on the pastor's position.

What about you, Jeremiah? So I'm assuming you mentioned healthy church. What does a healthy church, how do they encourage the members of the church? What do they preach? What do they say to encourage members to make sure that the pastors are taken care of?

Is it a hard subject? I mean, can you just say, hey, guys, I'm not making them up. Pick it up. Pick up the giving.

You got to communicate with the people, and it is a tough subject. But Jesus throughout the gospel spoke so much about money, being good stewards of what God has given us. And we are men of conviction.

I have family and friends that for the life of them say, Jeremiah, why do you not go to a church that you could be the senior pastor and get well over $100 ,000. You can preach. You know how to be dynamic and all these things.

And I said, I'm not about to put myself in an unhealthy church atmosphere that do not understand systematic biblical theology, much less the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of love, and then have to slowly take a Southern Baptist church to have a lofty view of God only to get people mad to divide the church and my family.

No, I'm not going to do that. And so we are men of conviction. And so that comes at a cost a lot of times. And so in Jonesboro, Arkansas, I'll be honest, I was about to move. I was wanting to go to seminary, things like that.

In God's providence, he brought into my life Pastor Nathan Hargrave, who we pastor now, but we served at a different church, unhealthy, tons of problems, unrepentant sin. And the Lord laid on his heart to plant.

And we were talking about this, and like I said, in Jonesboro, Arkansas, evangelical churches mixed in with Church of Christ, not evangelical. But they're kind of all scattered. And no healthy churches, not that I can see.

And that's why we planted in Jonesboro a city of churches. People say, why? I'm like, because we want a gospel atmosphere, gospel culture, meaning that we have orthodoxy so we can have a proper orthopraxy.

What does that look like, your city of churches? What is that? Tell us about that.

Tom, we broke all the rules for church planting, meaning we planted in 2020 during the COVID. So churches were shutting down, and we were like, the time is nigh. So you got to think, Pastor Nathan, his family, he has four kids and obviously his wife.

And so me and my wife, we were just me and her at the time before, baby JJ. So we church planted during COVID. That was strike number one against us. We planted with no families other than our own. And we had a $0 budget.

So big no-nos. But God was so gracious in all that. Pastor Nathan is one of the hardest working men I've ever seen. And I will say, COVID, he says stripped him of 20 years. I mean, we didn't know if he was going to make it through.

It hit him really bad. And you got to think, we're just praying, trusting in the Lord. And so Nathan used to do the work of 10 men by himself. Just grew up as like a carpenter building furniture and all these things.

And you talk about trial through fire. So I'm just saying, even the church planting trial fire, I tell people, I can tell you what I observed, but it can't be replicated. You know what I mean?

There's something to be said about faithfulness in there.

Oh, my goodness, Tom. He is faithful, even when we are faithless.

That's right.

And I can remember early on, God was always bringing families coming to visit. We started in a living room of Nathan's house. But it wasn't. Eight months into it, his family was able to move onto a property with a shed.

And we called it the Holy Shed. That's where we had church. If you look at Church 12 .5's website, Facebook page, you'll see old pictures. Now, we've transformed the inside. Gospel culture means a culture of hospitality.

So, yeah, we saw a big metal shed when people would drive up on the private property. But inside, just hospitality. In the early years, Tom, this is important. I would encourage you all to think about this for y 'all's churches.

We do something after every—so, you know, most services end with the sermon preached. Ours continues on into Koinonia, a meal, a meal of a love feast. We call it Koinonia Feast. And in the early stages of 12 .5, we had Spaghetti Sunday every Sunday.

There's some members in the church that remember that, and they were sick of spaghetti. We'd have it every Sunday. But we believed in sharing a meal together, building relationships. And so now we have over 100 people for our fellowship meals, and it's all home-cooked meals.

And you just see long-lasting relationships being built before your very eyes. And so, Tom, guess what we do after our Koinonia Feast?

Go back to the Bible.

We do a sermon Q &A, sermon discussion.

Oh, cool.

And we have—that's a part of our service. Like, we still have not read the benediction. So anyway, God's faithfulness. And so I want—Jeff, I want to let you know I feel your pain. I delivered mattresses while working for the church.

I mean, I was a mattress delivery and manager of the warehouse for 11 years as I started ministry because what y 'all said, you and Brayden, that I worked so I could pastor. I'm so glad I know y 'all because I feel that.

And delivering mattresses was starting to get too much to also pastor well. And so at least with hospice, it wears on me. I mean, I'm literally around death every day, and I get to preach the gospel and counsel people.

But, I mean, from 8 to 4, I'm just locked in that world but trying to think about what I'm going to teach on Wednesday, sermon preparation, apologetic stuff, trying to love my wife and son well. And you can't—you really do feel like you're being pulled in so many different directions.

And maybe y 'all are like this.

It's really hard to give 100 of anything whenever you got so many things going on.

Jeff, rebuke me for this. But what I've had to lean into and trust the Lord—so, like, I teach every Wednesday. And I'm teaching through Acts. I do different—I'll go to the adult class and teach some type of theology.

We just wrapped up the systematic theology, and I'll come over there for hard topics. But I try to listen to sermons on times two speed. I have reading programs that I can crank up to times six. But I have to be so innovative being in the truck.

I got these aftershocks, kind of like you do, that lets me listen. But when I teach, I don't have the notes like I would like, and I just trust the Lord with it. And I'm always fighting that internal battle of, like, man, I felt like I was missing something.

PASTOR MIKE NOVOTNY. Yeah. Yeah, that's me every week, man. I mean, so our church is a lot like yours. We have a meal after every service, right? Acts 2 42, they devoted themselves to the teachings of the apostles, the breaking of bread.

So we have the Lord's Supper every week, and we also have a meal directly after. We do not have a Q &A afterwards. Our meal time, like it's a long time. But around the table, we do a lot of discussion, and I do a lot of counseling during that time and stuff like that.

Now what scares me is that you say that you have around 100 people coming, and you're still not being able to be paid full time. Like I don't have anywhere near that.

PASTOR MIKE NOVOTNY. So here's a little bit more details to that. So Pastor Nathan is full time. I don't remember what he makes, but I think it's probably around 35 to 40. And even though we have over 100 people, and when I say over 100 people, I know one Sunday it was incredible.

We had 151 with 60 guests. So you got to think, Jonesboro is a city of churches, and we're actually in it because we're no longer in the Holy Shed. We leased out a restaurant building for five years, and we've just absolutely transformed it.

You can look it up on our website. It's incredible. I'm just saying how that came about, the hand of God. So we have about 90, 85 members, and we're getting ready to have a, we call it a family meeting.

But it'll be one of, hey, here are our bills. Here's what's coming in, and it's got to change. So I say that from a place of love for anybody that watches that, and the Lord's going to take care of us, and we're striving to be good stewards of our money.

There's three elders, so Nathan is full time. But to me, he's still not in the category of double honor like we're talking about. Another elder that serves with us, he's retired, so he's just able to spend time with the body and all the stuff.

And right now, I am part time in my conviction. I know Jeff's not able to hear this, Tom and Braden, but Nathan is the primary preacher at 12 .5, and he wants me to preach so much more, and I told him I'd want to.

I just don't know how I can pull it off. You know what I mean? Like I'm preaching.

As far as your time goes, you mean?

As far as my time goes, because June 30th is when I'm preaching. I need these three weeks to prepare for a sermon because of everything else going on in my life. What I was saying, Jeff, is—.

I have my kids. I just have to go tell my kid to go to bed. Gotcha.

So, Jeff, to your point, I think something does need to change at church, but it's right around the corner, and it'll be a good, loving meeting, but to speak clearly about the finances, and I'm younger than you.