More LDS Role Playing with Callers and Debate Announcement

This is the Dividing Line, the Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

And now with today's topic, here is James White. And welcome to the Dividing Line. Today we continue our preparations for our outreach work amongst the

Mormons in Salt Lake City and Mesa. And so I am going to, right off the bat, invite all of you who were just dying to have the opportunity last week to call in and participate in the program, to call in now and let us know of your interest in role playing with Elder Han.

Elder Han is with us again, very kindly has agreed to be with us again to talk about the subject of Mormonism with those of you who would like to talk with him.

So if you want to get online, 866 -854 -6763, a number of you in the chat channel, for example, had expressed your deep disappointment at not having had an opportunity to have spoken with Elder Han.

Maybe there are some things you want to share with him. And so in light of that, he's been so kind to return and to give us the opportunity of talking with him again.

So 866 -854 -6763. Don't let anything get in the way, whether it to be, you know, nervousness, there's no reason to be nervous, whether it be an alleged physical infirmity, don't let that get in the way either.

866 -854 -6763, and you can participate in the program today.

A couple of things before we get started with that, however, and of course, depending on whether anyone actually calls in, a couple of things.

Mark your calendars for March 30th and 31st.

Those are the days when we will be in Salt Lake City at the

General Conference of the Mormon Church on the 31st. That's our regular outreach, our outreach to the

LDS people there at the General Conference. But the night before, just this week, plans were finalized to have a formal debate on the subject of, quote -unquote, free agency, free agency.

Now we will be debating, I will be debating, this debate is sponsored by the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City, and I will be debating a gentleman by the name of Richard Hopkins.

Richard Hopkins has written a couple of books, Biblical Mormonism, Responding to Evangelical Criticism of LDS Theology is a book that I have spoken of before on the air.

I have said very clearly that that book demonstrates that when it was written anyways,

Mr. Hopkins had no concept of what the Christian doctrine of the Trinity or the

Gospel was, even though he was responding to it. And I said that directly to him on his own radio program in Salt Lake City a couple of years ago when

I was up there. But Mr. Hopkins has agreed to debate the subject of free agency.

Now free agency in Mormonism is similar but not identical to the concept of free will in standard

Arminianism or in Roman Catholicism. And so there is a little bit of a difference in this case because of the fact that in Mormonism, free agency is considerably more fundamental, fundamental to the consistency of the system, fundamental to their definition of God, et cetera, et cetera.

It is truly definitional of LDS theology to have that particular doctrine and to defend that particular doctrine.

And Mormons simply are amazed that anyone would in any way, shape, or form question the concept of free agency.

I will be presenting, of course, the Biblical perspective, and my challenge will be twofold, obviously to present the

Biblical doctrine of man requires at least some presentation of the Biblical doctrine of God.

And so Elder Hahn will be with us in just a moment.

So I have to present the Biblical doctrine of God and the Biblical doctrine of man in a very short period of time, and I just hope the

Lord will bless that effort, and that'll be on Friday night, March 30th. So those of you who are in the

Salt Lake City area, you will be able to attend that debate.

I don't have, I should have, but I don't have right now the information as to location and time.

You can look up the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City. I can guarantee you there's only one of them. And contact the pastor there,

Jason, maybe someone in the chat room might be able to give me a phone number, hint, hint, hint, hint, hint, since we do have at least one person that I know of in the

Salt Lake City area who is a part of that church, so maybe they would be kind enough to provide us with a phone number here in a moment.

But anyways, you can contact that church for details, but if obviously you're not able to make it to Salt Lake City, Utah, you could be praying for us as we undertake that.

The other thing that I wanted to mention, just briefly in passing, I think we were,

I personally was rightly reminded of some of my duties that I think

I sometimes avoid simply for various and sundry reasons, but by a good friend of the ministry who pointed out the fact that we simply don't discuss an issue on this program, we don't discuss it on the radio program when we're on the radio, we don't really talk about it much on the website and all the things that we do, but that is the fact that this is a ministry that is supported by individuals and churches.

And I'm not raising this issue because there's some sort of a financial problem or anything like that.

I just want to explain briefly to folks that we are supported by individuals.

That's one of the chief encouragements that I see is when churches and individuals take part in this ministry by supporting the ministry.

There are only three churches that support our ministry regularly right now, and I recall very clearly another church that before it disbanded, it was a very small church in a very difficult area, but they used to send $25 checks, and it was so encouraging to me when they did that.

A lot of folks look at the website, they listen to the program, and they go, well, it seems to me that you all must be funded by someone because you never talk about money, you never talk about donations, you all just must be funded by something, and so I don't have to worry about it.

In reality, we are not. And it only took me a few moments to sign all of the giving letters from last year, and we obviously could do much more if we had more support.

And so I just need to let our regular listeners know that, yeah, we are supported by individuals, and not by individuals who have big bucks, either.

It's generally the folks who don't have the big bucks that support a ministry like this. We won't use the types of tactics that other people sometimes feel comfortable using to try to use high -pressure sales to raise money and things like that.

We just don't believe that that would be proper. We don't believe that the message that we proclaim would be honored by that, and therefore we simply will not partake in that type of thing.

But we simply let people know. And one thing I'd like to ask you to do, other than praying about whether you would like to support this ministry, first and foremost, you must, must, must support your local fellowship before you even consider anything else beyond that.

I would not want anyone giving anything to this ministry when they are not supporting their local church. That is simply wrong, and we don't want that money, and would not want anybody to give us those funds unless they are actually involved in supporting their local church first.

That is first and foremost in our thinking. But if you are a member of a church, you're a member of maybe one of the missions boards, $25, $50, $100 a month from a church would mean so much to us because it demonstrates a support on the part of the local church, and that's who we're really here to serve.

And so if you would have an interest in seeing your local church support this work, that would be just a tremendous thing for us, a tremendous thing as far as providing encouragement to us.

So I just wanted to mention that. We don't mention it very often, but we do need to let folks know that that need does exist.

It always exists. The Lord has always met it in wonderful ways. We don't like to talk about it because we want to maintain the highest level of integrity.

We want to be able also to speak the truth. I don't want a huge constituency. This will never be a big ministry.

We are not a large ministry. People sometimes think that we have a huge staff running around, and other than the fact that I've gained a lot of weight, that's about the only way you can describe this as a huge staff.

But we don't have a huge staff. We have two staff members, a lot of faithful volunteers, and that's it.

We'll never be big because I don't want a large constituency. When you have a large constituency, you have to be careful what you say, and I don't want to have to be careful what

I say because sometimes I have to say hard things. And so if that's the kind of ministry that you want to support with the monies that you have available after the support of your local church that you are a part of, then please consider us.

And let me finish with one thing. If you're not a part of a local church, don't send us your money as if you are. If you're not a part of a local church, if you are not faithfully serving the

Lord where He has called you to serve, don't think that, well, I'll send my monies to Alpha and Omega and that's something good.

No. You need to obey Hebrews 13, 17. You need to know who has the rule over you, and then once that's taken care of, then if you feel you want to support this, that's fine.

But that's really something that we very, very much feel is very, very important.

And yes, donations to this ministry are tax -deductible, those of you asking that particular question. So with that having been said,

I think—let me look here. We only have one little blinking red light.

It's supposed to blink. That's okay. I wasn't saying blinking in a bad way there. We only have one person calling.

Now there are some of you, yeah, George in Clearwater, Florida. George will be with you in just a second. I'm getting

Elder Han warmed up over here. Y 'all really need to take advantage of the opportunities that you've got here.

You really do. So there are some of you in the chat channel right now, and you know, you know

I'm talking to you. I mean, I think it would be great to hear someone maybe with an accent other than a standard

American -type accent. Maybe an accent from overseas, or an accent that's even more difficult to understand because it's from South Carolina, Georgia, you know, who knows?

It'd be nice to have some of those folks on the program today as well.

So 866 -854 -6763. You need to share with Elder Han.

You may have the exact thing that needs to be said, so keep that in mind. It is interesting, we have somebody in the chat room,

Papal Man, who wants to argue about Roman Catholicism, and that's not the subject for me today, that's for sure.

And maybe if Mr. Papal Man wants to hang around and discuss it later on, well,

I won't be able to do it then either, but some other time I'll be able to chat with that particular individual and so on and so forth.

But anyhow, I'm not sure how Papal Man found out about us, but maybe Papal Man would like to go listen to the debates that Mr.

Mattox and I did on the subject of the papacy and see if he'd like to deal with those subjects directly.

866 -854 -6763. I hope that after Elder Han gets done talking with George that all will be well.

Now, let's go ahead and, oh, I forgot something, hold on a second,

George, we'll be right with you. I have set up another filter to fulfill requests for a new presentation.

What we're going to do is, I'm not sure exactly when we're going to start this, but I'm going to let you know about it each week so that people can be grabbing it, so people aren't going to be grabbing stuff, going, okay, what slide are we on, and trying to catch up once I get around to actually presenting this.

But a number of years ago, and it's ironic, I'm sure

George can hear me, that I originally created the

King James Only presentation that I am offering now in PowerPoint to present at Calvary Baptist Church in Clearwater, Florida.

That's what's ironic, since George is calling from Clearwater, Florida. And so I am making that presentation available using the same methodology that we used in providing the

Eternal Law of Progression presentation as well. So here's how you do it.

People are, why don't you just post this someplace, we can FTP it or whatever. Basically, because, and let me warn you up ahead of time, this presentation is significantly larger than the

Eternal Law of Progression presentation. This baby is 3 .9 megs. So if you've got Hotmail or something like that that cannot pull in a file of that size, then there's really not much

I can do about it, because archiving it really doesn't make any sense, to be perfectly honest with you. 3 .9

megabytes in size. It is a PowerPoint presentation. It comes with the connection to the

URL where you can download the free PowerPoint viewer if you wish. I created this, as I said, for a presentation back in Clearwater.

I've used it over and over and over again. A lot of folks have found it to be very useful.

It's going to take us a number of weeks to work through it. It would basically provide you with a brief introduction to the art and science of textual criticism, the history of the

English text of the Bible, the Textus Receptus, variations, the whole nine yards. Really, the only way to meaningfully address all those things is to have this information right in front of you.

I've presented this just recently to Simon Escobedo's Greek class. I've presented it in various churches, numerous contexts.

If you would like to get this presentation, here's how you do it. You drop an email to na27 at aomin .org.

That's the same as before. That's my personal email address. na27 at aomin .org.

Then, in the subject line, you type AV1611.

AV1611. Now, it can be all one word, or you can put a space between the V and the 1611. It doesn't matter.

AV1611. Go ahead and capitalize the AV. I think my filter will handle it one way or the other.

But AV1611, that's all you put in the subject line. You don't have to put anything in the note, because I generally am not going to be responding to that anyways.

But AV1611 is what you need to put in the subject line. That will come into my system.

I only poll for mail about every 10 minutes. Let's say you send it one minute after I've polled for mail.

It's going to be almost 10 minutes before I get it. Then, it's going to cue it to go out the next time

I get mail. So, there's almost always a 20 -minute swing there.

Now, I'm noticing that some folks in the channel are waiting for me to get to the

Mormonism part. Well, I've got some announcements to make. We'll get there in a second. So, be that as it may, if you'd like the

King James only presentation, then what you need to do is go to na27 .aomin

.org, put in the subject line AV1611, be prepared for a 3 .9

megabyte file, and it will be sent to you. So, that's how we will handle that particular situation.

Alrighty. I still only see one line blinking.

Someone who will remain nameless suggested that possibly, possibly

I could get you all to call in by saying, look, if after I get done, after George and Elder Hahn talk,

I'm just going to sit here and start reading from the Book of Mormon. Unless you call in.

So, keep that in mind. That would definitely, I think, fill up the phone lines pretty quickly.

So, with that in mind, let's go ahead and go all the way across the

United States to George in Clearwater, Florida.

Hi, George. Dr. White, how are you doing? I'm doing pretty well. Have we met? No, we have not met, but I want to tell you that I've kind of stumbled onto your website about a month ago.

Oh, okay. And I have thoroughly enjoyed listening to you debate the Gale Ripplingers and Dave Hunt.

I've really gotten a kick out of your website. Before I go to bed, I put that thing on real audio and I just kind of sit there and take some notes.

And I put you to sleep faster than anything else did. No, actually, you keep me up the whole time, man. My wife's kind of angry that I found your website, but other than that, it's been a blessing in my life.

Well, that's great. Well, you know, it's funny. I was in Clearwater in October and spoke in a number of places there.

And then in the previous, I think it was July, we were out there. Some really good friends of mine,

Mike and Saul O 'Fallon, are out there in Clearwater. And in fact,

I was out there while it was still really hot and muggy. Oh, it was bleh. You guys know what humidity is in a way that we desert dwellers do not have the foggiest concept of.

I can guarantee you that. So it's a beautiful area. And not sure when I'll be out there again, but if I know the

O 'Fallons, they'll have me out there before long and hopefully we can get a chance to meet each other then. Oh, that'd be terrific.

Yeah, it's a nice area. Okay, so are you ready to talk to Elder Han? I am ready.

All righty. Well, Elder Han, are you? Okay, okay. All right, I'm going to turn the microphone over to Elder Han and he can talk.

Go ahead, Elder Han. Well, thank you very much. George, thank you for calling from, where was it?

Clearwater, Florida. That's a long way. I've never been there, but it's a very, very pretty area. Now, George, if you're listening to this program, then you must, from what

I heard you saying to James, you must believe in similar things to what he believes in about God, there being, you know, one

God, the Trinity type stuff? Yes. You do. So, go ahead.

Yeah, basically, I am a United Methodist youth pastor. But I happen to be

Reformed also, so it's kind of a... Well, now, for some reason, Dr. White just gave me a really strange look when you said that.

Well, United Methodists aren't supposed to be Reformed, but I am. I kept losing arguments with my roommate in college and I kind of swapped over to the other side.

Ah, I see. So, but that issue aside, would you say that it's important from your perspective to believe that there's only one true

God? Oh, definitely. Now, you know that we believe there's only one true God for this planet, but we believe that we ourselves can become gods in accordance with the promise that Jesus gave us in John 10, 34 when he said,

Ye are gods. Do you believe you can become a god? I certainly do not. You don't? No.

Well, then what do you think Jesus meant when he said, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect in Matthew 5, 48?

Okay, I can tell you that I believe Jesus kind of set the standard extremely high to show us that we needed a

Savior in our lives. And basically, the only way we can fulfill that commandment is by accepting

Christ as our Savior. And in so doing, all the good works he performed here on Earth become our works. And when

God looks at us, he sees us as being perfect. So the perfection there isn't becoming like Jesus?

Doesn't it say that when we see him, we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is?

I think that's somewhere in 1 John or something along those lines. Right. And I would probably apply that towards when we're in heaven.

Right. Well, I don't really... When our life is past. Right. I don't believe we become gods until we get into heaven, though.

So we believe that we are joint heirs with Christ, and therefore everything that he has, we also will receive when we die and go to heaven.

So if he... Do you believe Jesus is deity? I sure do.

So if we have everything he has, how can we not be deity? Well, you know, I would ask you, so you believe that when you get to heaven, then you become a god?

Right, uh -huh. That's... First of all, I want to appreciate... I appreciate your honesty talking to me right now.

I spoke with a couple of Mormon elders, and getting them to answer questions like that was like pulling teeth. They would just kind of dance around it.

And I'm glad that you're just coming straight out and saying that. Well, you know, it's... James here, of course, has written some books on this, and so it's...

The reason that I wanted to make myself available this way is because he has directly addressed this and says that this is one of the chief areas where, in his opinion,

Mormonism and Christianity are completely at odds with one another. And I just want to understand why people would hear the words that Jesus said about gods in John 10, 34 and being perfect, and Paul's teaching that we're joiners with Christ, and so on and so forth, and how they cannot see that this is talking about being everything that Jesus is, and that means becoming gods.

Okay, well, let's back up a little bit. John 10, 34, when he says, ye are gods, I would ask you, who is he addressing there in that context?

Well, in that particular context, as I understand it, he says, is it not written in your law?

My understanding is that he's quoting from a psalm, I believe it's Psalm 82, and he's saying, look, even in the

Old Testament, there's this recognition of these gods that exist, and in fact,

Psalm 82 talks about a council of the gods, and so, why are you about to stone me,

Jesus is saying, for calling myself the Son of God, when, in point of fact, your own scriptures make reference to a multiplicity of gods?

Well, do you have a Bible right there in front of you? Yeah, sure. Okay, I want to point out two verses to you, and it's all laid out in John 10, it's the same context.

Basically, John 10, 11. Okay, I am the good shepherd, the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

And then, can I just kind of jump down to 25 and 26 and read those for me? Jesus answers him,

I told you and you do not believe the works that I do in my Father's name, these testify of me, but you do not believe because you are not of my sheep.

Okay, real quick there, Jesus is saying, I lay down my life for the sheep, I'm the good shepherd, you follow that argument there, and these are the same people he's talking to in 1034, right?

Right. And there he's telling them that, hey, I didn't die for you, you're not of the Father, you don't believe because you're not my sheep.

So obviously, if he's using God there in that sense, in the way that you're portraying it, I would say that it's not in a positive light at all, it's probably in a negative light.

Hmm. So, he's saying, let me see if I follow what you're saying, so, when he says,

God there, he's using it in a negative light, you mean, so are you saying that he's applying this passage to them and saying that they are the gods of the old, of the citations of Psalm 82?

Yeah, I believe the citation in Psalm 82 is referring to judges, people that ruled over Israel, and not necessarily,

I don't think it would be the word God in the sense that we imply deity. I would say it would probably be the word

God in the sense that we imply ruler. Well, I'd have to look into that. I've heard someone say that before.

It sounds to me like, you know, God just means God, but I'd have to look into that some.

But, well, let me just ask you, do you really think that that kind of, that, you know,

I mean, I believe in Jesus, and I believe he's the Son of God, and I believe that he died on the cross, and I believe that he rose again the third day, and I believe he's coming again.

In light of all that, do you really feel that the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter -day Saints, which believes all that, is not

Christian simply because we disagree on something as difficult to understand as whether the word

God in John 10, 34 is about judges or true deities? You know,

I would say that, yes. I would say that, you know what? I'm not here to judge your heart. But I can tell you from the

Scriptures, I've always seen the Bible portrayed real clear there's really only one God. And the way that you guys are presenting it, it's sounding like there's more than one

God. In the Old Testament, you know, that kind of talk would get you stoned. Well, you know,

I've read the Old Testament, and I think that when the Old Testament talks about one God, it's talking about one

God for the nation of Israel. I think that as man has grown and matured and learned more and more,

I mean, those Israelites thought that this was the only world that existed. Now we know that there are literally billions and billions of worlds.

And don't you think that, you know, you and I could Bible bash all day long about, you know, what this verse says and that verse says, but one of the main differences between us is that we don't just have the

Bible. We believe the Bible is the word of God as far as translated correctly, but we also have the

Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and we have a living prophet. So because we have this,

I know from your perspective, it's actually additions, but from our perspective, you have much less than we have.

And since we take all of it together, just as you take the Bible all together, you know, we come to a very, very, very different conclusion.

Don't you think it's possible that God could continue speaking even after the period of the

Bible? Well, let's look at that for a second, that He could continue speaking after He gave us His perfect word?

Right. I mean, why would He need to continue speaking? Well, what about speaking to the people here upon this continent?

I mean, the people on this continent didn't have His word until the 15th century at the earliest, the very few who may have encountered some of the initial

Spaniards. We think that God had love for those folks as well.

What's that? Oh, I'm being told that we're going to have to take a break, so you and I will be able to continue our discussion on the other side.

I'll finish answering that question when we come back from this break, and you folks on the other side of the wall, you do whatever you have to do.

All right. Answering those who claim that only the

King James Version is the word of God, James White, in his book The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt

Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author

James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book The King James Only Controversy by going to our website at www .aomin

.org. The Conference on Rome. Over 13 hours examining major doctrines and issues that separate

Roman Catholicism from Biblical Christianity, featuring the leading Protestant apologists on Rome and America today.

Listen to Dr. Eriks Fenson's presentation, Rome has spoken, the matter is debatable. When the

Roman Catholic apologists insist that the principle of sola scriptura has resulted in over 25 ,000 denominations, we should in turn insist that the principle of scripture plus an infallible interpreter has resulted in an even greater number of religious cults.

Pastor Rob Zins addresses the evangelical romance with Rome. There was not a Roman Catholic church in the first five centuries.

There was, to be sure, a Catholic church, but this is the universal designation of the body of Christ.

It is not Romanism. Pastor David King, the impact of Romans 117 on Martin Luther.

How is one himself to have that righteousness which God requires, yea demands, and which is utterly indispensable to salvation?

It is by faith, and by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we lay hold of the

Lord Jesus by faith alone. And Dr. James White examines the veneration of saints and images.

Do you think if such a person were brought before Moses, having just been caught bowing down before a statue and lighting candles and rocking back and forth in prayer, do you think

Moses would have accepted the excuse, I wasn't giving Latria, Moses, I was only giving

Dulia. Other topics addressed in this tape series, is there something about Mary? Scripture sufficiency, the Roman versus Protestant view, canonizing the

Apocrypha, an assault on scripture, Rome's sacraments, an assault on Christ's gospel, and purgatory, an assault on Christ's perfect atonement.

Look for this tape series and many others at aomin .org. That's A -O -M -I -N dot

O -R -G, The Conference on Rome. And welcome back to The Dividing Line.

My name is James White, and taking back over the microphone here for just a moment, you know, these transitions can be pretty tricky if you don't really know how to handle things.

I must admit, some folks in the chat room who will remain nameless.

I just got a request for the King James Only presentation, and the subject line says,

A -V -1611, but that's A -Y -E -V -E -E -S -I -X -T -E -E -N -E -L -E -V -E -N.

Thank you very, very much. I do, of course, appreciate that sad and pathetic attempt at humor.

As a famous, famous talk show host says, please leave all attempts at humor to the professionals.

Those who attempt to do those things on their own tend to run into some difficulties.

So, we have been having a wonderful conversation between Elder Han and George over in Clearwater, Florida, and that is taking place because George called 866 -854 -6763.

866 -854 -6763. Now, let me just mention in passing, it does seem interesting that right as our program began, someone with the nick

Papalman got into the chat room, and normally, of course, I would be talking with Papalman concerning his assertions about the papacy and his denial of sola scriptura.

But we've invited Papalman to call in at 866 -854 -6763, and if he'd like to discuss that, that would be fine.

That's okay with me. We'd be willing to do that if you would like to call in and talk to myself on that subject.

I think I might have a few things to share with him and may have a few answers to a few questions that he has to present to us.

So Papalman, feel free at 866 -854 -6763.

I don't know that you would necessarily want to use on the air the name Papalman. I don't know that I'd want to call you

Papalman, but be that as it may, you are more than welcome to call in and we can transition into that if you would like.

It's up to you. You seemed very confident in the things you were saying a few moments ago, and so we all began to suggest that you call in and talk about this particular subject.

So until Papalman decides his choice there, let's turn the microphone back over to Elder Hahn so he can finish up his conversation with George.

Go ahead, Elder Hahn. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. George, are you still there?

I'm right here. Good. What I was just trying to finish up saying there was we believe that when you take all of Latter -day

Revelation and you read it all together, that's when you see the wholeness of it.

I think you can understand my argument. I mean, if you only had, say, certain sections of the

Old Testament and certain sections of the New Testament, if you didn't have Romans and you didn't have Galatians and maybe you didn't have

Isaiah, someone who didn't have those things would come up with a very different understanding than someone who does, right?

Well, Elder Hahn, I would ask you, what Bible did Jesus and his disciples have to use when they spread the Gospel of Christianity around the world?

Well, I guess they would have only had the Old Testament, but they would have had all of it.

Exactly. Well, they would have had all of the Old Testament, which would have been half of our Bible. A little bit more than half,

I think, but yeah, that's all they had at the time. Right. But, you've got to remember, they spoke the

Word of God. They were inspired apostles, so what they preached, that was inspired revelation right then and there.

Okay. So that, I think, is important to note, too. Well, you asked the question, what kind of understanding would you come up with if you only had parts of the

Bible and not all of the Bible, right? I mean, that's the question you were proposing to me. Right. I would point you to 2

Timothy 3 .16, and I'll read that one for you. It says, "...all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction."

And verse 17 says, "...that the man of God may be complete." And I would tell you that complete would probably carry around with it the same idea that perfection had when

Jesus used it. "...thoroughly equipped for every good work." And obviously, when he's giving us that verse, there was no

Book of Mormon. Well, I would disagree. The Book of Mormon, actually the beginning of the

Book of Mormon was written long before Paul wrote those words, actually.

It just wasn't known to Paul and to the Apostles on this, in that continent, because it was over here on this continent.

So I do believe that the Book of Mormon was already being produced, and I would believe that passage would refer to the

Book of Mormon as well, because you've got to admit that there were still books to be written when

Paul wrote that, and therefore, it does not preclude future revelation from God in 2

Timothy 3 .16. So as long as it is inspired, then it falls under that category, and we would believe that the entirety of the

Scriptures and everything that God has continued to provide through the leadership of the

Church would fall into that category as well. Okay, well, what... Well, let me phrase it this way.

Let me ask you a question, then. Would you be able to say, then, that you said it was the

Bible, the Book of Mormon, and there was another one that you mentioned, as far as it being God's complete revelation?

Well, we have, of course, the Bible, as far as it's translated correctly. We have the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the

Pearl of Great Price, and the living leadership of the Church, the

First Presidency. We have prophets and apostles, seers, revelators. So God continues to speak to this day.

My question would be, then, if there was any disagreement between those five, ultimately, say, the

Pearl of... I didn't catch the whole title. Pearl of Great Price. I'm on a cell phone.

Pearl of Great Price, okay. If that was to disagree with, say, the Bible, the 66 books that Protestants recognize as being

God's Word, which one would... if there was to be a discrepancy between the two, which one, or between the

Bible and the Book of Mormon, which one would have more authority? Well, see, I don't believe that there is one. That would be similar to my asking you, what if there's a discrepancy between James chapter 2 and Romans chapter 3?

There are people who say that there is. Now, you may not believe that there is. You may believe that they're perfectly harmonious.

And I believe that since all of these are God's revelation, then they are perfectly harmonious as well.

I don't have a Book of Mormon in front of me, but I can tell you there's a quote out of the Book of Mormon that always stuck out in my mind.

And what happened was I'm a youth pastor, and one of the kids that graduated from our youth group started dating a

Mormon girl. And when I ran into him again, they had baptized him a priest.

Right, uh -huh. And he had a ring on his finger, and that's where my interest in Mormonism began. I wanted to make sure he wasn't being straight from the truth.

Okay. And I don't mean that as a shot at you, by the way. I just wanted to become more informed about it. There was a phrase that he showed me in the

Book of Mormon, and you probably are more familiar with it than I am, but it said basically, Adam fell so that men might be so that they might have joy.

That's 2 Nephi 2 .25. Okay, that means... Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy. That almost seems to be a contradiction to the fall of Adam and Eve presented in the

Bible, where it's really the devil that's doing the enticing and the tempting, and it's Adam and Eve losing their relationship with God.

And when we keep reading in Genesis, we get to Genesis 6, where it has those words that it had repented God that he had made man, because of the great wickedness that they had.

And I guess what I'm trying to say is, how would those two be, how would you say that those two are in harmony with each other?

Well, I think that what you need to understand is that the Book of Mormon makes it very clear that there is opposition in all things, and this is a key to understanding the

Book of Mormon and to Mormonism in general, is that, see, Adam transgressed, but he did not sin, in the sense that even before Adam came to this earth, it had been decided in the councils of heaven that he would be placed in a position where he had to fall, because there would be two conflicting commands that would be brought to bear against him.

One would be not to partake of the tree, and the other would be to be fruitful and multiply. Once Eve partook, then he had to partake of the tree so he could fulfill the greater command, and that was to be fruitful and multiply, because that was

God's plan for him, and so if he had not done that, as the Book of Mormon says, he could not have known good or evil.

If you have not experienced those things, you can do no good. And so it is fundamental to Mormonism to understand that we have to experience opposition in all things to be able to actually do anything that is good, anything that is truly good.

And so when we read the Genesis account, certainly men became evil, but that fall also gave the opportunity for men to do good and to experience joy, and if that fall hadn't taken place, then that could not have happened.

Well, what kind of joy do you think the men were experiencing, say, a couple of chapters later when Noah's flood comes up? Well, no, that's not what it's saying.

It's not saying that that brings to every person the ultimate level of joy. What it means is that without opposition in all things, there can be no true joy.

The joy of experiencing forgiveness or the joy of truly doing good things, because without a knowledge of good and evil, you can't do good.

You can't choose. Free agency is very, very, very important in our theology.

It's absolutely definitional. In fact, we believe that the great sin of Lucifer was that he wanted to force people without free agency to become gods.

In fact, if you could hold on just a second here, I have with me, this is a book.

Some of my fellow elders don't like this book, but I've found it to be very, very useful. And this is a book called

Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, and under the section on agency, he says these words, and I think if I understood what you were saying about being a

United Methodist, but I think the word you said was reformed.

Okay, that's what it is. Well, I think that's what this is talking about. Let me just read you what he says here and see if it is. This is page 28 of Mormon Doctrine.

It says, "...Churches that teach that men are predestined to gain salvation or damnation according to the election of God regardless of the acts of the individual find no place in their theology for the true doctrine of agency.

Their reasoning is to this effect. Why is there any need for agency so as to be able to perform good works leading to salvation if your salvation is determined by deity and the basis of predestination regardless of works?

Thus the false doctrine of predestination begets the false doctrine that men are not free to work out their own salvation as such is made possible through the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

The Church of England, for instance, in its articles of religion under the heading of free will, says, "...the condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself by his own natural strength and good works to faith and calling upon God.

Wherefore, we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God without the grace of God by Christ preventing us that we may have a good will and working with us when we have that good will."

And they're citing from something called the Book of Common Prayer, page 663. And so that's what

McConkie says about that. So you see, from our perspective, this idea of free agency is absolutely central to what it means to choosing to accept the fullness that God has for us.

So basically, free agency is... See, well, I guess that would be one of my disagreements would be with you, because from my perspective, basically, we can do no good in and out of ourselves.

It has to be God that takes the initiative. God that calls us. God that draws us. And basically,

God's the one who has to impute our righteousness. And if you recall, when we began talking, you used

John 10, 34. Right, uh -huh. And I showed you the text where Jesus is speaking to those very same people, and he says,

I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. And then he turns around and he points at those very same people.

How would you harmonize that with John 10, and say, maybe, Matthew 20, 28, where he says, the Son of Man came to give his life a ransom for many?

Well, we would say that that ransom is for many. Those who, of their free agency, choose to avail themselves of it.

But we certainly don't believe that the Bible, or the rest of God's revelation in any way, teaches the idea that salvation is limited to any, like I just read from Elder McConkie, that that idea we identify as a false doctrine.

Well, if you're putting Elder McConkie in his writings on the same part with the Bible, I would take issue with that.

Well, I wouldn't say that his book is on the same page as the Bible, but he was an apostle. And so, certainly,

I would believe that his interpretations of Scripture should be given the weight of an apostle in regards to how they are to do that.

I'm sorry, what? Oh, James needs to break in here.

it was very nice talking with you, George, from Clearwater. I really appreciated it. Elder Hahn, it was good talking to you.

Well, thank you, thank you, George. I thought you did a fine job talking with Elder Hahn there, and it was very interesting.

As I said, you do realize, of course, that being a

Reformed United Methodist is about as rare as stumbling across a four -carat diamond in the middle of the road.

You do realize that. Yes. I do, and the Church has kind of taken a stance where it's kind of like the military.

It's a don't ask, don't tell kind of situation. Well, sadly, the United Methodists do that with other things, too.

You're right. It's amazing. In fact, I'm writing a book right now with a good friend of mine named

Jeff Neal, entitled The Same -Sex Controversy. Of course, we're dealing with the issue of homosexuality and those who have attempted to present a quote -unquote biblical defense of that particular concept as well, so that's one of the issues that we're dealing with now, too.

So anyways, you did a wonderful job, I look forward to the opportunity of being down in Clearwater and we'll have to try to make sure that we let you know when

I'm down there so we can get together and say hello. Sounds good. Hey, James, pray for my denomination that we'll get those issues right.

Well, the only way to do that is to stand firm upon the absolute authority of the

Word of God. I know you know that, but that's what we all need to pray for.

Thanks for calling today. God bless you. All right, God bless, bye -bye. 866 -854 -6763.

It is so, I'm getting better at it, it's not easy to see what's being discussed about in the discussion channel and holding a conversation at the same time.

It's not easy to do, but it is fascinating to see those things. We invited

Papal Man to call, but Papal Man chose not to join us today.

That invitation stands. He was making some assertions regarding sola scriptura and things like that, so I would again invite him to make those in a situation where we can talk back and forth.

It's amazing how much more you can accomplish by voice than you can by typing. So, 866 -854 -6763.

Now, I am told that John in Salt Lake City would like to continue the conversation he had with Elder Han last week, and we can certainly do that.

But I'm still just, I'm truly distressed. Just truly, truly distressed that folks that know how to deal with Mormonism, that have been in the chat room for years in some cases, that you all just haven't called that phone number.

It's toll free. That means it doesn't cost you anything. 866 -854 -6763.

And you could talk with Elder Han and it would just be a wonderful thing.

Otherwise, I'm just going to have to start discussing some other subjects. That's just all there is to it.

we'll just wait. We'll see how the conversation goes here with John and then maybe the last half hour we'll just have to talk about something else.

We'll just hope that maybe the spirit will move you toward that phone, those of you in the chat room.

But anyhow, we do have John up there in Salt Lake City. Let me talk to John first before Elder Han takes over the microphone.

Hi, John. I'm doing well. Are you wouldn't happen, just happen to have a phone number for the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church up there, would you? You didn't hear me. See, I was hoping that someone in the channel named

Brando would help us with that, but I didn't. If it came through,

I didn't see it in the chat room. That would be nice. I'd appreciate that.

Honestly, I don't even know where it is right now. It's somewhere in Salt Lake City. It's not going to be where it was last time because the church has moved since the last time.

I'm not even sure where it's going to be.

Did we meet when I did the debate last year? Yeah, actually. I had you sign one of your books.

Who are you debating? Richard Hopkins. Oh, you're kidding.

No, Richard Hopkins and I will be debating free agency. Oh, you've got to on his program and I'm sitting here holding a copy of Biblical Mormonism.

I can't believe you're debating him. Okay, let's hear the explanation of that particular statement.

I talk to him quite a bit, so it'll be eventful for me. Well, good.

I hope you can get there. I was on his program last I don't know, about three years ago or so.

Does he still have the program on Sunday evenings? I look for it. I can't seem to find him.

Is KTKK still on the air? Yeah. Okay, well, does Van still have his program? I'm not certain.

I get too upset with Van. Well, Van got a little upset with me the last time.

He was not his normal, quiet self. Even Bill Forrest. I don't think

Bill Forrest exists. I think that Bill Forrest is a fake name and a fake person.

No, actually, I grew up in the same neighborhood as he did. Maybe you're right.

I don't know. But you see, I have been on with Van Hale many times. He and I debated down here in Phoenix and on the air, on numbers of radio stations.

I've been up in Salt Lake City over and over again. I've been on with he and Martin Tanner and Daniel Peterson and Bill Hamblin and all the rest of this stuff.

But I have never ever met Bill Forrest. He is always away when I happen to be there.

So I jokingly say I know he does exist. But I jokingly say I don't think he does exist because I've never seen him. So he's never on when

I'm on so I'm not really sure exactly what that means. But anyhow, it should be an interesting debate and it's certainly an interesting topic.

It obviously is difficult to address in regards to Mormonism because in Mormonism it is so fundamental to the definition even of God that to try to explain the concept of deadness in sin to Mormons is quite a challenge.

So it should be interesting. It's just not a part of their theology to begin with.

Well now before I turn you over to Elder Hahn here, was there a particular subject maybe you would like to address with him?

Actually I was going to bring up the Book of Abraham. It's actually the primary reason why

I ended up leaving the church. Oh well he's rifling through his Pearl of Great Price right now and look at that he happens to have with him a year 2000 publication from the

Foundation for Ancient Research in Mormon Studies author John Gee's little book on the

Book of Abraham. So he's ready to go. That's pathetic.

Okay go ahead. Okay well he's really interested in finding out what you mean by that. So okay go ahead.

Pathetic? Why is it pathetic? Actually what if I, oh actually

I John. I'm doing fine. That's good. What's the

Josephus definition of a prophet? Well the Book of Mormon actually has a fairly wide variety of titles it uses.

Prophet, revelator, seer and let me guess just wildly here that you're probably focusing more upon the idea of a seer as one who is able to translate unknown languages right?

Okay that's what the Book of Mormon says. See that's what I did when I was a Mormon is

I took the definition given by Joseph Smith and applied that definition to himself. So the evidence he left behind as a translator should, should he not pass the test should give me ample evidence of whether he's a true prophet or false prophet correct?

Well yes I'd have to agree, I'd have to agree, I'm not sure if someone's calling you there or something like that but I'd have to agree that Joseph Smith did claim to translate ancient records both the

Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. Okay, would you say that he, okay are you familiar with the

Kinder plates as well? Yes, just a little bit, I don't know a whole lot about them,

I know that they're not considered scripture or anything. Correct. I think that probably it's best, and I don't claim to be a real expert but it seems best to maybe focus upon what

Joseph Smith really claimed and the church understands to be revelation from God and that is the

Book of Okay, and the Anton manuscript, would you accept that as a... There are a lot of questions about the

Anton manuscript, wouldn't you agree, I mean we're really not sure exactly what that represents. Right, but you could,

I mean if the Anton manuscript really was written by Martin Harris, or actually

Martin Harris really copied off the letters to give to Professor Anton, would you agree that those inscriptions written by Martin Harris are, would you say, they are

Egyptian or do you think Martin Harris just made them up? Well, you know, even as Dr.

Gee points out in a guide to Joseph Smith papyri, it's difficult to get into the heads of all the people that were around Joseph Smith, like in the alleged

Joseph Smith Egyptian papers, which the Tanners call the Egyptian alphabet and grammar and stuff.

I was going to bring that up. Yeah, it's really hard to know exactly what those things represent and exactly how they function.

That's hard to say, but you know what, if you could hold on for just one second, they're giving me this signal that says we need to let the folks on the other side of the wall do their thing and so let's let them do their thing and we'll be right back.

Oh, what do you want me to do? Oh, 866 -854 -6763 is the number to talk to me,

Elder Hahn. We'll be right back. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with us this coming

Lord's Day. Our morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and our worship service is at 10 .45.

Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and Wednesday prayer meeting is at 7.

We are located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 26Grace or look us up on the web at www .prbc

.org. Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing

Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ, elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion.

In his book Mary, Another Redeemer, James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic.

He traces how Mary of the Bible, esteemed mother of the Lord, obedient servant and chosen vessel of God, has become the immaculately conceived, bodily assumed

Queen of Heaven, viewed as co -mediator with Christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the

Roman Catholic Church. Mary, Another Redeemer, is fresh insight into the woman the

Bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth.

You can order your copy of James White's book Mary, Another Redeemer at aomin .org.

And welcome back to Dividing Line. My name is James White and before we allow the conversation to continue between Elder Hahn and our friend

John in Salt Lake City, I would like to just mention one more time, for those who are listening, that we are offering my

King James only presentation, King James only as in separating fact from fiction,

I believe is the title that I use on it, that I will be covering on the webcast in the near future.

And we are offering that to those of you who drop an email to NA27 at aomin .org.

That's NA27 at aomin .org. In the subject line, please put AV1611.

That's AV1611. It can be one word or you can separate AV from 1611.

It doesn't matter. My system will pick up either one and will send you the PowerPoint presentation on the

King James only controversy. Please note, it is a 3 .9

megabyte file. So if you are on Hotmail or something like that and you've used up most of your disk space, it will come bouncing back to me and that's not a good thing.

So free up some space if you need to. It will come with an email where there is a link that you can get the free

PowerPoint viewer from the Microsoft web page. So you'll be able to take a look at that.

I'm not exactly sure when we'll start that, but it will be in the near future. Now some folks are saying you haven't gotten the mine.

I have processed all of them. I suppose it is possible, given the size of the file, that our server is holding them off for the moment because we are live streaming at the same time and trying to upload a 3 .9

meg file at the same time of live streaming. Maybe it is just holding them in queue for the moment. I don't know.

But I have already gotten a number of requests and have fulfilled them. I think

I have gotten about 15 requests so far and have sent them all out. But whether our system is actually sending them out at the same time is the question.

It may be waiting to send that material until... Oh! I just was told there are 17 in the queue right now to be sent out.

My assumption is that our server program is monitoring the fact that we are live streaming and therefore doesn't want to try to grab all the bandwidth and send it out themselves itself at the same time.

So I would assume that after we finish the program that it will receive those.

I noticed that last week, or the past couple of weeks, it will send them out smaller files, but I think because of the fact that there are so many and it's such a large file, it's just waiting.

So hold on for a little while. Once the program is over, I'm sure it will send those out to you before we start downloading or uploading the program to the website for listening later on.

So be that as it may, there are 17 in queue and those will be coming out. And 866 -854 -6762 is the phone number.

And I only see one blinking light, so I think that means that those of you in the chat room that I've invited to partake of our dialogue have chosen not to do so.

And I just want you to know that I will try my very best not to be personally hurt by the obvious rejection of my attempts to help you in your growth and sanctification.

And I will try to put this behind me as best I can and to continue forward and to not let it affect what

I think of all of you and things like that. So I just want you to know I will do my best, but I am but a man.

I am but a man. And so the next time I hear folks talking about how they really wish they could get some training to deal with these things, it's going to be hard for me not to point out that the opportunity was offered to me.

I think it will be hard for me to point out over dinner in normal Illinois that there are certain individuals that could have had these opportunities but simply chose not to.

But John has. And so we appreciate John. And so I'm going to let

Elder Hahn and John speak for a little while longer on this fascinating subject. And you know, there's much that I'd like to say about this because the book of Abraham is a fascinating, fascinating subject.

You know what, Elder Hahn? After the proclamation to sit down and we're going to have to talk about the fact that the book of Abraham is the single most, most glaring evidence that Joseph Smith was not what he claimed to be and that the material being put out by farms in an attempt to obfuscate.

Yes, sir. I said obfuscate. The truth of this is actually further testimony to the impossibility of defending the book of Abraham.

The facts are in. The documentation is in. And Elder Hahn, you have to sit down and you have to simply completely redefine what

Joseph Smith claimed he was doing in your own documentation to come up with any way of defending

Joseph Smith's book of Abraham. The facsimiles are not what he says they are. The facsimiles are an embarrassment,

I believe. And the only way that your church has handled this is the, is the ostrich in the sand routine to try to simply hope to control the damage.

The attempts on the part of Hugh Nibley and these other individuals even your best scholars, they have simply failed.

But you know what? I've just taken some of John's thunder, so I'll let you continue on with him and we'll talk about it later, okay?

All right. Well, I think I just got told. That was, that was something else.

John, you still there? Yes. Do you agree with what he just said? Elder Hahn, yes, I do. The, you know, the real problem,

I guess, with the book of Abraham is Egyptologists, such as Dr. Ashman and Dr. Thompson, they're both associate the facsimiles within the

Prologar Prize as the Book of the Breathings, which is the condensed version of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which actually dates later, dates later than the

Egyptian Book of the Dead, which means you're looking at maybe 100 to 200 years before the time of Christ when those manuscripts that Joseph Smith actually are claimed to translate are dated 200, so they couldn't have possibly been written by Abraham.

Well, that assumes, and they're saying that I need to ask you to speak up just a little bit because they're having to over -amplify you and stuff to get you on, but that assumes a lot of things, that, you know, as I've been reading through John Gee's book and things like that, there are a lot of connections, you know.

Right, okay, let's do this. What if I change the article of faith to say we believe the

Book of Abraham insofar as it's translated as the Bible to be the Word of God? If I take these same type of criticisms that you have toward the

Bible and you claim, well, you can't really trust the Bible because of the translations of the Bible, I'd say, well, let's apply that same test to the

Book of Abraham. Because the Book of Abraham, if you translate it the same methodology as Joseph Smith did, using the characters within the

Egyptian alphabet and grammar, you come up with what Joseph Smith believed, he was translating it word for word.

You can't possibly say well, John Gee is correct by drawing similarities between, you know, he did maybe get this portion right or maybe get this portion right.

You see, I would challenge, okay, I'll believe everything that John Gee says about the

Book of Abraham if he's translating it from one language into another. Because I think he's found maybe one character that Joseph Smith may have possibly, you know, got right.

Well, that's assuming that, you know, he's sense then papyrus is in fact the origin of the

Book of Abraham, and I think there's reasons to question that.

It's possible that we don't have the actual ... Okay, see, we're not talking about what some of the,

I mean, I think this is an unfair tactic because, okay, the fact is within the

Prologue of Christ, Joseph Smith, you know, you read on the next page of an explanation of the cuts, you know, the

Prologue of Christ, and you know, if it's, okay, if you're claiming that the manuscripts, that we don't have the manuscripts that Joseph Smith used to actually obtain, to actually translate, then why are they still publishing within the

Prologue of Christ, facsimiles one, two, and three? It makes no sense. You can say, okay, well the

Church is wrong by publishing them, that means you have a succession of inspired prophets who believe that these particular facsimiles were translated by Joseph Smith, and so they've been duped, or Joseph Smith is claiming that these characters that came off the facsimiles within the

Prologue of Christ are translated, and translated correctly. Well, remember, the facsimiles themselves are not the source, they were attached to it.

Okay, the only problem you have with that is they were published. Do you remember which magazine they were published in? Times and Seasons?

Correct. They were published in the Times and Seasons, and character for character, and you know, with the discovery of the manuscripts, actually the papyri themselves,

I mean, you can actually compare with the facsimiles and find, you know, they match up. So, I mean, that argument is very weak.

Well, but my point is that all that's offered by Joseph Smith is an interpretation of the facsimiles.

He's not saying... No, it's translated by his own hand upon papyrus. I mean, the big problem you're facing is, you know, when you look at the

Greek and Hebrew, in fact, you know, it's funny, I laughed once I became a Christian because underneath one of the facsimiles, there's a

Hebrew word which Joseph Smith claimed, I think shamayim, do you remember? Can you read that at the bottom?

Hold on a second, James White has some... I think you mean shamayim? Yeah. Yes, okay.

Whatever that word is, can you find it in the Hebrew? Well, I can, yeah.

Sorry, but see, that shows us better examples. Hashamayim is the heavens. Say what?

Hashamayim would be the heavens in Genesis 1. So did he get one right? Well, I'm not sure what...

See, you've got to remember, Joseph had a Hebrew lexicon, and he loved to pull stuff out and show off that he knew what he was talking about.

There's two words that he didn't get right, but there's one word that he did get right. Well, shamayim would be, if we're talking about that,

I mean, again, he just simply looked these words up. It's fascinating to read in the teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. Well, yeah, you're right.

I mean, because he was in the School of Prophets, and there was actually a guy that was going around and doing that time period teaching

Hebrew. Yeah, but he didn't get very far, that's for sure. I mean,

I laugh because when I look at Joseph Smith as a translator, he filled with the

Book of Abraham, he filled with the Kinder plates, he filled with the Anton Manuscript, and the changes in the papyri in the

Doctrine and Covenants, you know, when John the Revelator came and supposedly gave Joseph Smith some papyri, translated it and rolled it and took it back up to heaven, there were changes made afterwards where he didn't actually have those particular writings.

Well, quite true. Now, let me just ask something, and we're going to have to, we actually, believe it or not, have another caller, even though, well,

I don't see another caller there, but anyways, according to my window we do, but I don't see it on the thing, maybe it's, well, whatever the reason is.

Trust us. Okay, I'll trust you. We, I would like to ask you a question, though, what was it, what was it like to discover that Joseph Smith, I'm assuming from what you said before, that you were raised in the

LDS church? Correct. That means you attended family meetings on the first Sunday of each month, and I don't know if you ever did it, but you certainly saw others go up there as small children and say,

I love my mommy and my daddy, and I bear testimony that Jesus is the Christ, and that Spencer W.

Kimball is a prophet of God, and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and Jesus Christ, Jesus' name, amen, and everybody goes amen.

Right. And what was, what was it like to discover that Joseph Smith was not what you had been raised to believe he was?

Actually, it was funny because while I was being raised in the Mormon church, it was the church enzyme that started me to question church history because it was that point where you had the kindergarten plates that actually rose, and I remember reading an article with my mother in the church enzyme about the kindergarten plates, and I found out that there were problems within church history because I went to the five -volume set within the,

I think it's the fifth volume, I can't recall, of where B .H .R. Roberts actually discusses the kindergarten plates, and he actually, you know, it's funny that Mormon apologists will actually try to defend

Joseph Smith with the evidence they have. You know, with the kindergarten plates,

B .H. Roberts actually tries to defend, and he's actually sides with Joseph Smith regarding his interpretation of the kindergarten plates because what happened is the kindergarten

Illinois, some people made some fake plates, and they didn't ask to test them and discovered they were fraudulent.

But after reading church history, you thought they were genuine up until the time they were discovered. The same methodology that Mormon apologists used back then, it's the same type of methodology regarding the book of Abraham, but this started me to question whether or not

Joseph Smith could actually translate. But, you know, the thing is that I really had a special experience within the

Mormon church. I read and prayed about the book of Mormon, and I assumed that it was from God. And so the transitioning of studying church history, but it came to the point where I didn't believe the book of Abraham, I didn't believe the

Doctrine and Covenants, but I believed the book of Mormon still to be the word of God. And then I started to study the history or the problems within the

Mormon, you know, chariots, horses, and, you know, in fact

B .H. Roberts even brings this out in the studies of the book Mormon.

It's called the Studies of the Book of Mormon by B .H. Roberts. I think his signature book actually publishes it. The Tanners used to publish it.

They used to call it the Hidden Manuscripts of B .H. Roberts. But you find a lot of historical problems within the book of Mormon, so I finally let that go.

And then I didn't know what else to believe in. All I knew was that there was special experience regarding this book.

So I started to study the Bible as well as other religions, and finally came to the conclusion that the Bible has the most weight to it in comparison to other religions.

But the treatment of Mormons when you decide to leave the church, they create ad hominem,

I guess that's the correct way of saying it, arguments. I mean, because I did live up to church standards.

I mean, I earned a duty, got a word, became an Eagle Scout, went through the priest, etc.

And I almost became an elder, except for I put a mission on hold because I was having a problem with church history.

Wow. Boy, that's That seems, at least from an outsider's perspective, to be a pretty rare experience.

I mean, it seems so many of the LDS people that I talk to today are so satisfied with merely mythologizing

Joseph Smith on a factual basis. Like, well, you know, I have this testimony, and so those things just aren't important to me.

And yet, you were very concerned that what he actually claimed to have been true was not was, in fact, true.

Yeah, actually, I mean, I got in a lot of trouble because it was good luck at home because I was actually going to a bookstore and actually buying books on church history.

And then I was bringing them home, and my mother would, you know, yell at me for having these books in my house.

It was pretty funny. Well, I mean, it wasn't funny at the time. Right, and looking back at it. Now, if I could ask

John, how long ago was this? Let's see. I think it was 37. So I left,

I finally left the church when I was 20, 21, so about 16 years ago. Wow. Well, that's, obviously there, you know, we are familiar with people who have, who am

I thinking of? Help me out right now. The guy that was very involved with Book of Mormon archaeology, and he lost his faith over the

Book of Abraham. What was his name again? Ferguson. Thomas Stewart Ferguson. You look at a situation like that, and one of the reasons

I wanted to ask you about that was he lost his faith in everything supernatural. He lost his faith in the existence of the

Bible, the word of God, and prophets, and the whole nine yards, because he had worked so hard in regards to defending

Joseph Smith, that once he realized that Joseph Smith was indefensible, then it became an all or nothing thing.

Yeah. And one of the reasons I was asking you was how it was that once you came to understand that what you had been taught was a deception,

Joseph Smith was claiming to do something he could not do, that he was not true, how you don't take the pendulum swing all the way out to the point of saying, well, forget it.

Actually, to tell you the truth, I almost did. I mean, right now

I'm a Calvinist. I mean, if it wasn't for God's sake. The grace of God. Right. Yeah. Convicting me of the

Holy Spirit, then, seriously, I'd probably be an atheist. But the funny thing is that I was taking a philosophy course at the time.

I was studying church history. And I discovered that the

Greek manuscripts that a lot of the Greek philosophers were written in were actually a lot more accurate.

The New Testament was actually more accurate than they, and yet they were still reliable. And so I got scared because I knew that the

New Testament was reliable, and I'd been taught that you couldn't really trust it as a Mormon. That bought me

But the thing is, the spiritual experience I had with the Book of Mormon convinced me that there was at least something out there, but I didn't know what it was.

Hmm. Well, fascinating. I really appreciate your filling me in on that. And I do have, right here in my hand, a guide of the

Joseph Smith papyri by John Gee. And I loved your reaction to that as soon as I pointed that out.

But anyway. You know what? He's a... I mean, did Joseph Smith Did you debate him? No. He actually, when he was still back in school, he sent me some e -mails.

And I'll be perfectly honest with you. They were... How would

I describe them? They were... They were nasty, is what they were. And basically, he tried to argue that the figure in Section 7, a hypocephalus, is not men.

And I said, well, wait a minute. What about the And I just went down the list of all the

LDS scholars who have said that it was men. And in fact, Nibley went so far as to say, well, you know, our

God is procreative, and therefore, there's the connection here, etc., etc. And so, you know,

I responded to him, and he just basically wanted to say, well, have you ever examined this papyri, or that papyri?

As if that somehow would change the outcome of the conversation, and it was rather disturbing, actually.

But anyhow... Ask him how he prays, and then ask him if he ends the prayer in the name of Anubis.

Yeah, in the name of men, or something like that. Yeah, that would be fascinating. Well, anyways, thanks a lot, John, for calling in today.

All right. God bless. Bye -bye. Oh, wow. Fascinating, fascinating stuff, indeed.

Well, we only have a few moments left, and, you know, Elder Han looks like he's going to be a little tired over there after that conversation.

So let me talk with Tim real quick. Tim, you there?

Yes. Hey, Tim. Let me see, what kind of archaeological questions did you have?

I'll see if Elder Han is even up to trying to tackle them in this short period of time, because...

I don't know how much you spoke on that the last few moments, because on the line here, the other gentleman that you were talking to, his voice was real low, so I couldn't really hear him.

Okay, all right. But, you know, I guess what I was going to ask Elder Han there was, in light of archaeology, the

Bible seems to be seriously undergirded by archaeological evidence consistently, even as we speak, continues to be dug up and confirmed the

Bible, and I find quite the opposite with the Book of Mormon and such, and I'd like to give one quote from noted

Biblical archaeologist Nelson Gleck. He made this profound statement. He said, as a matter of fact, it may not be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a

Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the

Bible. And I was wondering what he would say to that, because I even got a couple letters from Smithsonian Institute National Geographic, which they say there's no evidence to support many things that come.

Well, zero. There's been zero evidence to support evidence for the Book of Mormon, and in fact, before pre -Columbian times in 1492, many things that are mentioned that took place here in America didn't exist until after Christopher Columbus came over.

Well, I'll let Elder Hahn, go ahead, Elder. Tim, there are, at your local bookstore,

LDS bookstore, volumes and volumes and volumes published by the

Foundation for Ancient Research in Mormon Studies, that fully answer such little things as the

Smithsonian Institute, John Sorensen's work on that, is just absolutely exemplary, and I am not an archaeological expert.

I sort of doubt you are either, but I can tell you that there are men who have given their lives in the study of these issues, such as John Sorensen, who have written extensive rebuttals of the

Smithsonian letter, that I've seen that at the door, people whip it out as if it's some sort of magical sword or something like that, and yet none of them have ever taken the time to listen to what

John Sorensen has to say, and his responses to the various points that they raise, and I think that's a shame, because I think it shows a fundamental unwillingness to listen to any evidence for the truthfulness of the

Bible. Well, I find most evangelicals are simply unwilling to listen to any evidence for the truthfulness of the

Book of Mormon. So what really is the difference, as far as attitude goes? I really don't see a whole lot of difference.

Have you ever read anything by John Sorensen? No, I haven't, but let me throw this at you, since we're short on time.

It's my understanding that you say that there's precious truth missing from the Bible, and we believe that, or I believe

I should say that God has preserved his word, and thus we should believe that. Let me give you a couple quick quotes from, like Bruce Metzger, who holds five

Ph .D .s and is a master of translating the Bible. He said, out of the 20 ,000 lines in the

New Testament, only 40 are up for debate, and all others are a given authority.

Another man has said that if there was, I think, 86 ,000 quotations in the early

Church Fathers, if we didn't even have the Scriptures, we could get back to the New Testament with the exception of about 11 verses.

And we see the Dead Sea Scroll finds, which the greatest find out of all that was the 24 -foot long scroll of Old Book of Isaiah, which was virtually the same book of Isaiah we have in our

Bible today. There are two things I would point out to you there. There are two things you need to think about.

I'm not attacking the Bible, but the Jeremiah material in the

Dead Sea Scrolls is significantly different than that in the King James Version of the

Bible. That's the first thing to keep in mind. And secondly, if you're comparing and contrasting the

Book of Mormon with the Bible, of course, you've got to understand why that is. The Bible was written in a dry desert area where manuscripts could be preserved.

Have you ever been to Guatemala or anywhere in Central America? It's very, very, very humid, and therefore there's a tremendous amount of decay of any type of thing that's built over time.

And not only that, but John Sorensen points out that you could create a scenario for the entire history of the

Book of Mormon that would fit within almost 40 square miles of land. What would happen tomorrow if all of a sudden we stumbled across where that 40 square miles is and we started finding

Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics in all the places that the Book of Mormon talks about? I think that would change things a lot.

Well, thank you, Elder Hahn. Thank you, Tim, for calling in. I appreciate those quotes from Bruce Metzger and your defense of the faith.

Brother, thanks for calling in. God bless you. Well, thank you, Elder Hahn, for being with us again today.

I hope everyone was blessed by the conversations. And I do want to thank the brave people who called in.

And as I said, I will do my best not to hold it against anyone who didn't call in, who should have, who you know who you are.

We'll be back with us again next week here on the Dividing Line as we continue our preparations for the work in Salt Lake and our study of the

Word of God here on the Dividing Line. God bless you. See you next week. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -0318 or write us at P .O.

Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona 85069. You can also find us on the

World Wide Web at AOMIN .org. That's AOMIN .org, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.