July 25, 2017 Show with Mack Tomlinson on “Redeem Your Tongue” AND “Why We Sing to God”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 25th day of July 2017, and I'm delighted to have back on my program someone who has quickly, over the last year, become a very dear friend of mine and always delighted to interview him and promote anything that he's involved in.

I'm speaking of Mack Tomlinson, who is one of the at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and today we are discussing two topics, one each hour,

God willing. Redeem Your Tongue will be the first topic of the day, and then if we have time during the second hour, we will address

Why We Sing to God, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Mack Tomlinson.

Hey Chris, always a blessing to be with you. And in studio with me again is my co -host the

Reverend Buzz Taylor. And it sounds like we got a couple good subjects again today. Amen, and if you'd like to join us on the program with a question of your own for Mack Tomlinson, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter for which you are asking a question.

And also, we are excited to continue to promote the upcoming

Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, Maine, which is a conference that was really originally organized by Mack Tomlinson himself at his

Providence Chapel location in Denton, Texas, but has branched onto Portland, Maine, as well.

Before we go into the Fellowship Conference New England, tell us something about Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

Our audience, Pastor Mack, seems to be continually growing and expanding and I am hearing from new listeners either on the show or outside of the show.

I'm hearing from new listeners every single day now who are emailing me either questions for my guests or who are just emailing me to thank me for the program.

They've fallen in love with the program and it's just a blessing to my heart to see this breakthrough that we've made where every single day now we're getting contacted from unfamiliar names.

But if you could tell our listeners who have never heard of you or the congregation where you pastored before, tell us about Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

Yes, well, we're a Reformed Baptist church. It was planted almost 20 years ago in north of Dallas in a university town in Denton, Texas, in North Texas, and we major basically on Biblical Christianity and Biblical preaching in a context of real loving fellowship.

We really seek to honor the Lord's day, worship, and we have a 945

AM Sunday school Bible study hour for the whole church combined. Everyone's in for that, and then our worship is at 11 o 'clock.

And throughout the week, throughout the month, we have two prayer meetings every

Wednesday, two different locations, and also a men's study every two weeks and a women's study every two weeks.

And so we enjoy true new covenant fellowship as far as loving, supporting one another.

It's a wholesome, loving, healthy Biblical atmosphere, and we're very grateful that God has us here in North Texas as a witness to the gospel of Christ.

And tell us now about the Fellowship Conference New England. I know that the

Fellowship Conference started out right there in your home church in Denton, Texas.

Tell us how long ago that began, and tell us about its expansion into New England and what our listeners can expect to discover when they attend,

God willing, that conference. Well, the Fellowship Conference in Texas here in Denton is an annual conference, always

Easter weekend. We have believers come from all over North America, several foreign countries now, mainly because some of the messages kind of went viral, and we found a lot of Christians around the country that were lonely, did not have a church where they were, did not have a good church, and so they began to come just because they were spiritually hungry for some fellowship and teaching.

So the conference has grown a lot every year, and then there were some believers from New England who came a couple of times and said, we greatly need such a conference in northern

New England because there's nothing for believers in the north of New England. So that prompted an invitation about five years ago to start

Fellowship Conference New England, and it's grown every year. It continues always the first week of August for three days,

Thursday through Saturday here in Portland, Maine. So we invite anyone to go to the internet and just check out

Fellowship Conference on New England. I think Chris will be giving some information on that later, and join us if you're able to.

It's coming up soon, the first week of August in Portland, and it is growing. It's doubled in size in these five years.

It's not large. It's a warm atmosphere of biblical teaching and preaching, true fellowship, and there's a luncheon available, and so we just invite believers in the

New England area to join us if they're able. And the website,

I'll be giving this information later as well, but if you care to look it up, if you are interested in registering or finding out more about Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And today you chose two topics that we will be addressing.

The first, as I said before, is redeem your tongue. If you could tell us what the catalyst was behind your wanting to discuss that.

Well that's a sound like a strange phrase, redeem your tongue. And really what we're talking about is how the

Bible views our speech and the use of our words. You know, the book of James says the tongue no man can tame.

It is often full of poison, and it affects everything.

The Bible also says death and life are in the power of the tongue, which means our words affect others, either in an edifying way, as Ephesians 4 says, or in a destructive way.

And so months ago, our church began to do a book study on Paul Tripp's book,

The War of Words, which is a phenomenal book. And I have been noticing in recent years how much

Proverbs and the book of Psalms, as well as the

Gospels and Paul's epistles, speak about the importance of words. And so I've just been really gripped by that more recently as I've thought about it, so that's led me to personally study this area more, take it more seriously, and to see just how biblically important and how vitally important our words are that we speak to others.

Yeah, in fact, I'd like to give a plug to an interview that I already have scheduled with Paul Tripp on Tuesday, August 8th.

So make sure you mark your calendars for Tuesday, August 8th for the Iron Trippin's Iron Broadcast featuring

Paul Tripp. But this is a very timely topic as many of us have sadly witnessed the horrific treatment of a mutual friend of ours,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries on the internet. People who would agree with us at times, theologically on many things, but seem to think it is appropriate for them to, while it is very appropriate for Christians to disagree with one another when we think that there is a biblical reason where we must either lovingly rebuke someone or gently correct someone, and even at times sternly rebuke and chastise someone.

But there is a crossing of the line in many cases that we have seen occurred where people are actually publicly imputing motives to Dr.

White and to perhaps others that are involved in defending him, where they are using guesswork and using their gut instincts to vilify him by proclaiming those gut instincts publicly.

Now obviously there is nothing wrong with acting upon gut instincts in certain circumstances and having guesses about things at times, but when you publicly identify an individual by name and you are merely guessing about their motives behind doing something and you are publicly declaring it as some kind of a fact, isn't that really paramount to, tantamount to slander?

Well absolutely it would be slander, and you know this brings to mind something that's very sobering really.

Not only the words we verbally speak, but the use of social media is also just as much speaking.

We use words maybe more today on social media than we do verbally, but there's still words that are spoken.

And two scriptures come to mind that are very sobering to me. One is in Matthew 12, the

Lord Jesus Christ said, Every idle, or that is careless word that men speak, they will give account for that in the day of judgment.

And then when you think about the implications of that, it makes preachers or talk show hosts or bloggers, it should make us all fearful and sober minded about how we use our words, especially when we're misrepresenting things or attacking.

And the second verse in light of that that comes to mind is what Paul said to the Ephesians in chapter 4 verse 29,

Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth. Well that's, I mean that just kind of kills any any inaccurate or unedifying speech.

Because Paul goes on to say, Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth.

What is good or necessary edification in order that it may impart grace to the hearers.

So these things are just biblical standards and God takes seriously our words and we will give an account for every idle, careless word that we willfully continue to use until we repent of wrong speech.

Amen. And the example I was just giving involved our brother in Christ, James White, who has decades of evidence that he is a gifted man of God who has used his gifts to not only proclaim truth but expose error.

A man who has never gotten wealthy or even anywhere remotely close to it by using his gifts and traveling across the globe to not only speak at conferences in areas like Ukraine and others where there is not actually a massive number of people who are thoroughly trained in the doctrines of grace and in theology in general.

And very often it is not only without pay but at cost to him personally.

But that is one thing, but there are even Christians out there that I've noticed during this whole episode who seem to think that it is appropriate to exaggerate facts which is still slander.

When you're talking about somebody like Muslims or when you're talking about unbelievers, I actually had someone in response to me saying that you are not to bear false witness against your neighbor no matter who your neighbor is.

Your neighbor doesn't have to be Christian for that command to apply. In fact I even said that if you are a witness in a murder trial and you stand or are sitting in the witness seat and you testify that you saw the accused of murdering three people when in reality you only saw him murder two people, even though the man's a murderer you're still bearing false witness against that person.

That is even inexcusable. You can't exaggerate the truths against anyone. And I actually had somebody respond to me and say to me,

Muslims are not my neighbors. So this is something that we as Christians, we have to obey this commandment no matter who we're talking about.

Isn't that true? Absolutely right, Chris. And the thing is, professing

Christians and true Christians, because there are false Christians that only profess to believe in Christ but they're not true believers, but this area of our speech is really probably the most difficult area to redeem.

Meaning to be changed, to be sanctified, where the Holy Spirit and the truth of God, renewing our minds, changes us where we take our words seriously, where more and more the

Holy Spirit gives us self -control to govern our tongue. But it's amazing how loose and unsanctified many

Christians' words are. Yes, and would you say that one of the reasons it is so hard to tame the tongue, one of the biblical texts where we read about our speech is in the

Gospel of Luke 6, verse 45. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good, and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil, for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

It's like something that we very often, especially if we are not properly disciplined, when we think of something, it just pops right out of our mouth, just like flows out, and sometimes it's to our embarrassment, and if it's something sinful, it should be embarrassing to us, and hopefully will help teach us a lesson and help tame our tongue.

But could that be one of the reasons that it's so hard to tame the tongue? Right, well, it is exactly right.

It's a heart issue. Out of the heart proceeds our thoughts. Jesus said that himself, out of the heart proceeds evil thoughts, and he also said that out of the heart proceed our words, and so it is a heart issue, and only as our hearts are renewed and controlled by, really by the fruit and the control of the

Holy Spirit, out of the heart the mouth speaks. And James says there's this schizophrenia, there's this double personality, if you will, out of the heart, out of the mouth proceeds blessing and cursing, and he said, brethren, these things ought not to be.

How can a true Christian praise God on Sunday morning in worship and on Monday be cursing or telling filthy jokes or gossiping about people?

And so these, all this fruit of our lips proceeds out of our heart.

And we have a listener in San Jose, California. His name is Daniel, and he says, hello, brother, the tongue can be used to tear down, which we need to be mindful of, but should we be also as mindful of the way we word things, namely when admonishing one another?

I love singing theology, Phil, I think that he is giving me two questions for the two hours here.

So there's the first question. The tongue can be used to tear down, which we need to be mindful of, but should we be also as mindful of when we word things, namely when we admonish one another or when we're admonishing one another?

We absolutely should, and that's what Paul somewhat is getting to in Ephesians 4 when he says we should not have corrupt words, that is unedifying, not unhelpful words.

We can speak to someone truth, but we can say it in a wrong way, in an unedifying way, or in a way that is almost attacking or judgmental.

And so how we say something and the words we use are absolutely important.

This is why Psalm, at the end of Psalm 19, David said, let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight,

O Lord. So our listener is right. It's very important how we address something.

We could rebuke someone or exhort someone or correct someone with a sincere motive, and one way that we do it will alienate them, hurt them, make them feel attacked, and a wiser, better way that we do it will cause them to know that we love them and we're only trying to help them.

So yes, that's exactly right. Well, thank you, Daniel. In San Jose, California, keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron and spreading the word in California and beyond.

We have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, what practical advice would you give to someone seeking to be a better listener and not so quick to shoot from the hip, so to speak?

Well, that's a great question. One of my pet peeves is when people interrupt one another in a conversation, and probably because that's been a problem of mine over the years.

It is so easy to not listen, because when someone's speaking to us, we automatically often begin to formulate a reply or we're thinking about our reply, and we stop listening.

And then we interrupt them if we think we're, if they're pausing a moment, and we interrupt them.

And so listening, you know, the Bible tells us to be quick to hear and slow to speak.

So listening is so important. And there is a real ministry to listening, because if someone's hurting, if someone's struggling, if someone is being restored from a sin, the true art of listening to them and hearing them and not just spouting off quick answers or quick solutions, that can minister to them more than anything else, especially on the front end.

So I think my reply would be we have to discipline ourselves when we enter a conversation.

We have to tell ourselves, I am not going to interrupt. I'm going to consciously make sure

I'm listening, and I want them to know I'm listening by maintaining eye contact and being engaged, giving them my full attention.

That's what I have learned by God's grace to try to do, and it is very important.

He is right. Yeah, and I have to be constantly on guard of that because of the fact that I'm doing a talk show every day.

And I'm not saying that I've mastered it perfectly, but I think that I have become known for, at least according to my guests who write back to me,

I've become known as someone that lets my guests speak thoroughly and make their points.

I'm not saying that to pat myself on the back, but it has grieved me watching other talk show hosts who constantly jump in in the middle of sentences and try to dominate a conversation.

What their motivations are, I don't know. Sometimes it seems evident that they are trying to look as the one with superior knowledge or whatever the case is, but you see that a lot on television, especially on some of these political talk news programs.

But if I have a guest on my program, I am considering that person the expert, so I'm going to try to let them speak as much as they can without going into an area where we're just totally listening to a speech or a monologue.

But that whole area of listening, Job's friends could have learned a lot from that lesson, couldn't they?

They were too quick to speak to him and really not there just as listeners and compassionate friends, were they?

Well, that's true, but you know, sometimes I've defended his friends in a way because the book of Job says they didn't speak for a week.

I probably would have started saying something at least two or three hours into it. That's right.

They remained silent for a week. That's amazing to me. And then it went south from there, you know.

Not everything they said was false either, but sometimes it's the way and the timing of saying even a truthful thing that could be damaging to a conversation, because the manner in which you even proclaim truth can be done self -righteously or purposely to hurt someone rather than to edify them or correct them or encourage them or comfort them.

Yes, you know, here's a couple of thoughts. I think every Christian just ought to face the fact that we do not read

God's Word on this subject of our time with the serious attention that it deserves, and what shame a

Christian should feel when we spoil our example and our testimony by speaking foolishly, because our words can nullify our actions and our good deeds.

Someone said the tone and language of our conversation as a Christian gives us a fair idea of how sanctified we really are.

You know, there's another thing the Lord Jesus said about our words. It's quite striking.

He said, by your words you will be justified, and by your words you'll be condemned. What in the world does it mean by words will be justified?

I thought we're justified by faith. Well, the word justify means to declare something as being right, to declare something as righteous, and when he said our words will be justified, the meaning is our words that we speak regularly declare about us what is true.

It declares the evidence that we're a justified, true believer, or the evidence that we're not a true believer, and I've told others before, you can listen to people in the world, strangers, and you know, maybe they're speaking for five minutes and every other word is a curse word, or their vile speech, their proud speech betrays the fact that they don't know

God. It's just a fruit. It's an evidence. So our words, by our words we are justified, and by our words we are condemned.

Amen. As far as Gordy's question about specifically practical advice, obviously reading the scriptures and studying them in these areas is is going to be an automatic thing that a

Christian should do, but is there any other practical steps? I mean, something pops into my mind that may begin in a person's life as something that sounds artificial or stilted, but isn't it possible that you may have to begin sometimes, especially when you're having a conversation, when you know you're going to be disagreeing with somebody, by actually saying to them, can you please let me know when you're finished with your point, because I want to make sure

I'm hearing everything you're saying accurately before I jump in here, without saying it sarcastically.

You want to let me know when you're finished, you know, that kind of thing, but if you're saying it with gentleness and when you're saying it meaningfully, couldn't it be at least some beginning into learning how to listen more than speaking when you're having a conversation?

Absolutely, it is true. You know, a Christian should apply courtesy, kindness, humility, and self -control in every situation, and so especially if we see that we have a problem with not listening or interrupting others, we must train ourselves in a way.

Paul told Timothy, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness. We could apply that to our speech.

Discipline yourself for the purpose of good communication. So, if I'm going to have a conversation with someone and I know, you know, it's a planned visit or a spontaneous one, the first thing

I should try to do is remind myself, might be quick to hear and slow to speak.

Make yourself listen only until you know they're finished and give them your full attention because your time to speak will come, and so that's the most practical advice that I could give.

We must learn to make ourselves be good listeners, and that's a matter of self -discipline and self -control, but the more we learn to do it, the more of a habit it will be, and the better conversations will go because if someone disagrees with us at the end of the conversation, if they see that we were respectful, that we really listened and regarded our words and our reply, they'll go away with respect even if they don't agree with what we said.

We have to go to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Mack Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

He's also an author, and today we are discussing two different topics. The first topic we are addressing right now is

Redeem Your Tongue, and then, God willing, we will enter into a second topic in the second hour,

Why We Sing to God. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

We have a listener in Slovenia, Joe, who says,

Dear Brother Chris, Today's topic of redeeming the tongue is precisely what makes your show so appealing. In my experience, generally speaking, our society, both within and without the

Church, has become almost incapable of meaningful and worthwhile conversation. Sadly, the vast majority of interaction is limited to either silly and surface inconsequentials or off -the -charts visceral and personal attacks.

There seems to be little to no willingness or ability for robust yet respectful dialogue on meaningfully and weighty topics that are vitally important and relevant even among Christians.

Is this yet another sign that we are in desperate need of genuine revival?

Were things different before the advent of social media? What are practical things we can all do to improve the situation?

Thanks for just being different from the norm. That's Joe in Slovenia, and if you could respond.

Well, he's right. The advent of social media has given people kind of a bubble, a private bubble, a private setting, which is really false in a way, a false sense that they say things they would never say around a group of people.

And, of course, we've seen where that's led with the use of social media, much damage.

I've seen whole churches and families destroyed and relationships destroyed through words used on social media.

It's just a plague, and it's simply because there's no fear of God before their eyes.

There's no fear of God in the There's no fear of God among many professing

Christians, and so they have no... It doesn't even cross their mind that they're going to give account for their words.

It doesn't cross their mind that their words are going to live on, and so he's right.

It's just... I believe the problem... Of course, we don't expect a non -regenerate society to have the fear of God, but if the church and believers will realize,

I must glorify God and fear God, not only in relation to my conduct, but how

I speak, because I am going to give an account. And so, to me, that lies at the heart of the issue.

Yes, and even though, obviously, slander and gossip and misuse of the tongue have gone on since humans have walked the earth, that's why we have commands against it in the scripture, social media has definitely made it very easy, a lot easier, because, as you said, people have keyboard muscles where they can say anything without fear of impunity, without fear of any kind of serious ramifications on their lives, whereas a newspaper or magazine journalist might have received the negative consequences and ramifications of either being sued or fired.

People just say things as they please, whether they're true or not, on the internet, and people view it as something that's true.

And the speed at which that is done and communicated globally is unprecedented.

You know, Chris, if I could take a moment just to encourage people who read the scriptures, you know, many

Christians out there listening probably are daily Bible readers, but it's really amazing when you take notice of how much the scriptures speak regularly about our words, how much

David talked about it in the Psalms, and especially in Proverbs. So one of the big themes of the book of Proverbs is the words of the righteous and the words of the wicked.

Just to mention a few verses quickly that Solomon gives us in Proverbs, Proverbs 11, 13.

A gossip reveals secrets, but he who is of a faithful spirit conceals the matter.

Proverbs 12, 22. Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who deal truthfully are his delight.

Proverbs 16, 28. A perverse person sows strife, and a whisperer, one who secrets, separates the best of friends.

I could go on and keep mentioning verses, but one that comes to mind is

Proverbs 29, 11. A fool utters all his mind, but a wise person holds his back.

And then Proverbs 17, 28. Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace.

When he shuts his lips, he is considered wise. Well, that's just words about the wicked, the words of the wicked.

There are many verses in Proverbs about the words of the righteous, how the mouth of the righteous is a well of life, and wisdom is found on the lips of one who has understanding, and the lips of the righteous feed many.

So here's a striking reference in Proverbs 26.

Have you ever thought about this? One verse says, do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him.

And the next verse says, answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

So one verse tells us don't answer a fool. The next verse commands us to answer a fool.

What's this mean? It means there are times to answer a fool, a wicked person who's mouthing off or saying what's wrong.

There's times to not answer back or we become like them, we answer carnally.

But there are times to answer a fool with wisdom, lest he's wise in his own eyes.

Let me illustrate that. Years ago, I was preaching every Sunday in a nursing home in Dallas.

Every Sunday, I would walk in the front door every Sunday afternoon, and there was an elderly gentleman always sitting, he was a resident, he was always sitting on the porch.

I would always invite him to come into the service, and his answer was always the same thing. No, all preachers are hypocrites.

Billy Graham, he's the biggest hypocrite there is, and he would just take off criticizing. And I never replied back.

I didn't know what to say. I didn't want to argue with him, so I just go on in. Every week,

I would invite him. Every week, it was the same reply. So a couple of months into it, one

Sunday, I invited him, and he said the same thing. No, you know, Billy Graham's a big hypocrite, and I don't want to go to church.

And immediately, I had this reply come to me for the first time. I looked at him, and I said, sir, if you would get a right attitude toward Billy Graham, and if you would pray for him, he might do a lot better.

And the man looked up at me with big eyes, and he said, touche, preacher, touche, as if he finally had an answer that he couldn't reply to.

So, you know, I was in Canada recently, and someone told me there, a pastor told me that the newly elected

Canadian prime minister recently said publicly, the greatest threat to Canada today is evangelical

Christians and evangelical Christianity. That's the greatest threat our nation faces.

Well, think about it. The tongues and the words of sinners are always attacking and tearing down others, especially the church and especially

God's people. And Maurice Roberts from Scotland said, for the

Christian today to live in a fallen world means that we are in an arena of the strife of tongues, and it makes it all the more important for us to be careful with our own tongue.

Amen. We have a listener that must know you, Pastor Mac.

Donna in Waterboro, Maine says, Pastor Mac, first of all, sorry for my always interrupting you time and time again.

You are so gracious to always gently ask me to let you finish what you are saying. You truly model what you are preaching, and I have learned so much from you.

My question is, if the scripture, in the scripture, it speaks clearly to not let any unwholesome speech come out of your mouth.

It talks about coarse jesting, obscene talk, etc. I have heard Christians use language which to me is swearing, but they say that in this day and age, it's no longer considered a swear.

That culture defines the definitions now. Times change, and so do words and their meanings.

Can we truly say this? Should we? What is the scripture really teaching in those passages?

Well, the culture certainly cannot change the meaning of words for us, because words mean something.

Words have truth in them, and even though the culture and society puts different twists on words, we cannot let the culture dictate to us.

I mean, and really, I think it's a smokescreen, too. If someone uses a curse word, whether hell or damn, they have begun to believe, and if they justify it, they're believing, and it's okay because everybody does it, and nobody thinks anything about it.

Well, they've let the world put them into its mold, as Romans 12, 1 and 2 says, and so, but only the scripture and only truth must shape our definition of things and our practice.

So, yeah, it's a very good question, and it's very important, and it's easy for believers to compromise on these issues if we don't have the scripture itself as our unchanging standard.

You know, there's an old, Martin Lloyd Jones has a book, I think it's entitled Truth Unchanged, Unchanging, and that's the way we've got to view these things.

The Bible is clear and absolute, whether it's on moral issues, or abortion, or the gospel itself, or the definition of sin, or the use of our words.

So, it's a good question from Donna. And guess what, Donna, since you are a first -time questioner on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, you have won a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, so please give us your full mailing address so we can have

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and we hope to hear a lot more from you in the days, weeks, months, and years to come,

God willing, if we are still on the air here at Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. One of the things,

Pastor Mac, don't you think that there are too many people, and even Christians, who think that gossip, rumors, slanders, things like that, yeah, that's probably not genteel and the polite thing to do, but yeah, it might be some kind of a sin, but it's really not that bad.

Don't they forget what, they appear to forget what Jesus said in Matthew 15, starting at verse 18, but the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart and those defile the man.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

These are the things which defile the man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.

I mean, the sin of bearing false witness and slander are listed amongst the worst things that a person could do.

Well, that's really, really true, and there ought to be, there needs to be very, very valid reasons to repeat a matter, and the

Bible prohibits this over and over again. He who repeats a matter separates friendships, so sometimes people do it out of, quote, concern.

They'll share it as a prayer request, but it's wrong because, first of all, if we're not a part of the solution of a problem, we don't need to be repeating that problem.

Only people that are going to be a part of the solution should be told about a situation.

For instance, if someone in our church, or if they fall into sin, or a child, a teenager is in danger of doing something, should we repeat that?

We should only repeat it to someone who can directly help them, and who would be an authority over it, a pastor, a parent, but we shouldn't go to others and just tell them what we know about a situation, because those people, they're not a part of the solution, and they will probably repeat it to others, and so thus, that's how the proverbial grapevine spreads gossip about many people, and this is multiplied.

Obviously, this is how things go viral on social media, and so, yeah, it's just, again, it gets back to Christians not walking and living in the fear of God, so they don't have any sense of a soberness about repeating something.

They don't see it as wrong, but all the time, the Bible, every day, shows and says that it's wrong.

Amen. Let me say something here. I thought of a quote by J .C.

Ryle, the British 19th century pastor. He said, our words are the evidence of the state of our hearts.

Well, think about it. If we gossip, we have a critical gossiping spirit.

He said, our words are the evidence of the state of our hearts, as surely as the taste of water is an evidence of its stream.

So, think about this. A tender heart will have tender words. A kind heart, kind words.

A loving heart will have loving words, but a judgmental heart will have judgmental words.

A hateful heart will speak hatefully. An impatient heart will speak to children impatiently, and an unthankful heart will never express thanks.

So, anyway, it's just, it's bodily important for believers to see, to see how critical our words are.

Amen. And we have to go to our midway break right now, and we will be transitioning to a new discussion during our second hour.

We are going to be discussing, God willing, why we sing to God. And if you'd like to join us with a question on that issue, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. So, don't go away.

God willing, we will be right back with our guest, Pastor Mack Tomlinson, and more of our discussion on why we sing to God.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about one hour to go is

Mack Tomlinson, pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. He's also an author and a conference speaker.

And the second hour with our guest Mack Tomlinson, we are going to be addressing the theme,

Why We Sing to God. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question about that subject, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please always give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

And please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. But before we return to that discussion,

I have some important announcements to make. You heard me mention earlier the Fellowship Conference New England that our guest pastor

Mack Tomlinson founded. Originally, the

Fellowship Conference New England began in Denton, Texas, and now has expanded to include Portland, Maine.

Well, the next conference, Fellowship Conference New England, will be held August 3rd through the 5th at the

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. And the speakers include our guest,

Pastor Mack Tomlinson, who is also author of Leonard Ravenhill, a biography,

In Light of Eternity. And most recently, another biography is written, Conrad Murrell, or Murrell, Grace and Truth.

And he is one of the speakers, in addition to being a pastor at the

Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, as we said. But also, one of the other speakers is

Pastor Don Curran, the Eastern European Coordinator with Heart Tri Missionary Society in Radford, Virginia, which is an organization founded by Paul Washer.

Pastor Jesse Barrington, who is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, a sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, whose radio station owns, whose radio station airs

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day in a pre -recorded form. And Pastor Nate Pickowitz is also speaking at the conference, and he is pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire.

And we have already interviewed Pastor Nate on his book, Reviving New England, but we're also scheduled to be interviewing him in the near future on his book,

Why We're Protestant. If you would like to join us at the Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, Maine, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And then in November from the 17th through the 18th,

For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a line from the classic hymn,

A Mighty Fortress by Martin Luther. And this line in particular refers to Satan, For Still Our Ancient Foe.

That is the theme of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals upcoming Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology being held at the

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alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

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Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace. If you'd like to register for the G3 Conference, which will be on the theme,

Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com. Whenever you contact any of these organizations to find out more about their special events, please always let them know that you heard about those events on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Well, now we are continuing our discussion, or actually beginning our discussion, on why we sing to God with our guest

Mack Tomlinson. This is the second topic we intend to address today, and Pastor Mack, if you could let our listeners know why is it that this subject seemed to be so important that you wanted to discuss it today?

Well, really the topic of the first hour, the use of our tongue, the use of our words, is not disconnected from this topic, singing, because the

Bible commands believers in the sense of God to sing to the

Lord so much. You know, I became a Christian in 1974, and church had always been a boring thing to me in my teenage years, and I dreaded the singing.

It was so dead, it was so dull, it was such a ritual, and I never enjoyed it, but when

I became a Christian and I came to Jesus Christ, the truth that I would hear in church in the songs and the hymns was made very real to me, and I soon became one who loved singing in church and singing as a

I've never stopped loving singing, but the more I began to read the

Bible and study the Bible, the more I began to see how important this subject is in the

Scripture. It's huge. It's massive. I mean, you can read through the

Psalms one time, and you can count 20, 30, 40 times or more where the psalmist is commanding us to sing to the

Lord, and so singing is a method of praising

God and worshiping God. It's a means of doing that directly, and the

Bible tells us that God inhabits the praises of His people. As John Popper once said, the fact that Christianity is a singing faith bears witness not only to the way we're wired as human beings, but also to the kind of God we have.

God is so beautiful and valuable in His perfections that to leave out the emotional component and not let it spill over in song is to leave out a key element in worship, and I became convinced,

Chris, that many Christians never truly worship

God from their heart when they are singing in church. It's become a filler before the sermon.

It's become a ritual where we don't actually engage our minds and our wills and our hearts to sing to God as an act of worship when we sing.

And I have to confess that although I hope that is not the regular habit of my life,

I can say that I do slip into that sin more often than I care to admit. You have a lot of things that are running through your mind about what occurred before church or what's going to occur after church.

You may have been having trials in some way in your life. Your mind drifts, and you find yourself just in a robotic fashion just following everybody else and singing, and that can be an easy sin to fall into, can't it?

It certainly can, and it's just because we don't view it with the importance the

Bible places on it. Singing is commanded in Scripture over and over.

It's also a privilege. It's a responsibility, and it is an act of worship and a means of grace.

This is a really amazing thought. Think of in the book of Acts. Paul and Silas have been arrested.

They are in the Philippian jail. They've just been beaten, and their backs are bloody with fresh wounds, and there's other prisoners in the jail.

And Luke records that at midnight, what did Paul and Silas begin to do? They began to sing praises to God.

I don't know if Silas started it or Paul, but one of them apparently just started singing or suggested, hey, let's sing.

The Bible says the other prisoners heard them. Now think of this.

Follow this. God sent an earthquake. After they were singing, the

Philippian jailer was converted, and the Philippian church was birthed in Philippi as a result, ultimately, of Paul and Silas responding in their pain by singing praises to God.

And I wonder how often in our pain, difficulties, do we ever sing, and do others ever observe our singing, our praise to God, while we are in a prison of trials and we're hurting under pressure?

Every Christian has a music ministry, and that is singing in the house of God or singing privately to the

Lord. My wife told me one time, she said, I've noticed over the years people who can't carry a tune, they're not musically inclined, they don't have a beautiful voice, but they see the value and importance of singing as a

Christian, and they do it from their heart, and they do it sincerely and fervently, and they are an example to others because it's not how pretty or good our voice is, but how sincere our heart is.

You know, there's something that I have thought about a lot, lately especially, and I don't know if the scriptures ever address this phenomenon.

I don't know if there's something scientific about it. Hello, are you there, Pastor Mac? We just lost...

Are you there? Yes, I'm here. Okay, I don't know if there's something scientific about this.

I'm assuming that there would be, but isn't it interesting when you have especially a large group of people singing, that room could be filled with untrained people in regard to music and singing.

In fact, it could be filled with people, many of whom have horrible voices, but for some reason when they are all combined together, especially in the larger groups in churches, it becomes this beautiful sound.

Isn't that some interesting phenomenon? I'm assuming that you have noticed that yourself. Absolutely.

I love hearing when a church is singing together fervently, sincerely from their hearts.

It's a beautiful choir. It's a beautiful chorus, and the beauty of it is it's a spiritual act of worship.

Christians should not view singing as a performance or entertainment, but it's an act of worship, and it's interesting that Hebrews chapter 2 says that Christ himself sang with his brethren.

He is our worship leader, and Christ is present when believers sing.

He's the choir director, the unseen orchestra leader leading his family in singing, and it's a marvelous thing.

We should view singing as a direct act of worship, but the church in our day, the contemporary church, too often has made it a performance or an entertainment factor, and it's not in the

Bible. Yeah, isn't it very important? Even if your church believes in the inclusion of special music, in the inclusion of choirs, an occasional praise band, or something like that,

I know that there is a disagreement amongst those in the body of Christ over those issues.

You have some who have a stricter understanding of the regulative principle that would not permit a choir or a band doing performances in a worship service.

They would strictly adhere to congregational singing exclusively, but isn't it true that no matter what side you're on in that debate, that congregational singing is a vital aspect of the worship service that is far more important and far more clearly biblical than special performances by solo artists or choirs?

Absolutely right. I couldn't agree more. And I think if every believer elevated their view of the importance of singing, they took it seriously, have a high view of it, churches would sing better, and the worship would be more

God -centered. But often, and it's just because we've learned to be this way, we've never taken it seriously,

Christians in church sing in a mediocre way. They're almost passive about it. I've actually seen

Christians in church regularly not sing. They'll look at the hymn book, they'll look at the screen, but they don't sing.

They don't enter in. And they probably feel like, well, my voice is bad,

I'm tone deaf, it'll bother the one next to me. And so they lay out, they don't sing.

And really, it's just wrong, because God is our audience.

We're to sing unto Him. And we've got to see it for the importance it is.

There are some things we should think about. How should we not sing? We should not sing as a dead ritual, just to get through that part of the service, to get to the sermon.

We should not get used to singing, so we take it for granted.

We should not just mouth the words, but not let it register with our minds and our hearts.

We should not just go through the motions. We should sing with freshness, with focus of our minds.

We should sing deliberately, consciously, intentionally. We should sing fervently, with our hearts engaged, with our will engaged.

And when you read the hymns of the great hymn writers of the church, Isaac Watts, Fannie Crosby, Charles Wesley, Francis Havergal, you see what great depth of reality are in those hymns.

John Wesley said this about singing, above all, sing spiritually.

That is, have an eye to God in every word you sing, and aim to please

Him more than yourself in your singing, or more than anyone else.

Then your singing will be such as will glorify God, and will be a blessing to Him.

You know, we're going to go to our final break, and what I'm going to do right now, Pastor Mack, is

I'm going to forward you one of the questions from our listeners, so that you could have time to think about it over the break.

And that is the second question from a listener who asked a question during the first hour.

Daniel from San Jose, California. He is asking now a question on singing, and it relates to something that you just said, actually.

And I'll email you the question so you could respond when we return, but I'll also read it right now, so our listeners can have benefit of hearing the question, and perhaps think about it themselves.

The question is, I love singing theology -filled songs of praise and worship, although there are times when

I just want to sit back and hear my brothers and sisters pour out their heart to our

God. Would I be robbing myself of a sense of worship when I do not engage in singing in order to hear others?

And I'll have you answer that when we return. And I'm assuming Daniel, in San Jose, California, is just talking about from time to time, not habitually, and not throughout the entire worship service.

I'm guessing that. But we will have you respond when we return.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air, now is the time to do it, before we run out of time. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in for the next 26 minutes or so, we are going to be discussing or continuing to discuss why we sing to God with our guest

Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. He's also the founder and a speaker at the

Fellowship Conference New England, which will be held in Portland, Maine, this August 3rd through the 5th.

And if you'd like more information on the Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. But if you'd like to join us on the air now with a question for Mac Tomlinson regarding why we sing to God, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And we heard from, as you know,

Pastor Mac from Daniel in San Jose, California. Before the break, I read the question.

I'll read it again. I love singing theology -filled songs of praise and worship, although there are times when

I just want to sit back and hear my brothers and sisters pour out their hearts to God. Would I be robbing myself of a sense of worship when

I do not engage in singing in order to hear others? And by the way, Daniel sent a follow -up email clarifying this.

He says, sorry, I did not specify. Yes, I meant from time to time, not regularly.

And that also gives us pause not to judge our brothers and sisters if we happen to glance at them and they're not singing.

Perhaps they are just enjoying the worship being conducted by their brothers and sisters.

But what is your response? Yeah, I would agree with him that there are times that we can be very moved by the singing of the congregation, and suddenly we just feel like we want to pause a moment or perhaps, you know, half of the song and just listen and soak it in.

So I agree with him, there are times that I've experienced that as well, but you know, those obviously are exceptions.

But we can be edified just by hearing and listening as well at times, absolutely.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, just recently somebody in a message either in a church or a conference quoted, and I may be wrong, but I'm almost certain it was

Martin Luther, who had the same kind of advice, especially toward those who are going through a season of depression or sadness or sickness, that it would be very appropriate for them to just drink in what's happening around them during a worship service and listen to the saints singing to lift your spirits.

In fact, could I follow up on that? Oh yeah, definitely. It's a perfect intro into a thought by Dietrich Bonhoeffer about that very thing.

Bonhoeffer, the hour that he was martyred in Germany, the hour before he went out to the gallows, he was leading prisoners in a worship service, and they were singing.

And the German guards came in and interrupted toward the end of the time, and they called

Bonhoeffer and another man out, and they were martyred. But Bonhoeffer said something about that very thing, and it was this, singing and godly music will help dissolve your perplexities, purify your heart, and in times of sorrow will keep a fountain of joy alive in you.

So we cannot underestimate the influence and the good of godly music and singing, and we cannot underestimate the evil of bad music and evil singing.

So it is just so vitally important. I remember one time being in Eastern Europe with a number of brothers.

We were doing some conferences, and we drove 10 hours from Romania up into Ukraine, and we had some hymn books in the van, and at one point someone just said, well, let's sing some hymns.

We started singing hymn after hymn, song after song, and the more we sang, the more it seemed like it was just a moment where God's presence was real.

There was joy. There was encouragement, and I don't remember how long we sang, but it was like a divine moment that the

Holy Spirit was just upon that time of our singing. You know, sometimes believers are embarrassed to sing with one another, and we shouldn't be.

We have our grandchildren often with us in morning worship, and just this morning, four grandchildren and I read from a chapter of Scripture, and we began the time with a song, and we ended the time of family worship with a song, and our youngest grandchild there was two and a half years old, and he knows almost all the words to one of the songs as a two -year -old, and he was staying up with us because he's heard it so often.

So true singing does several things. Primarily, it blesses and honors and glorifies

God. Secondly, it builds up and encourages us as a believer, and thirdly, it always should prepare our heart to hear and receive

God's Word. Well, one thing that I immediately am getting rebuked by this conversation is that I have to definitely remember that I always, always remember to bring my reading glasses to church, because sometimes

I find myself unable to sing the hymns because I just can't read them, and it shows you how the effects of age are negatively thwarting my

Christian ability to worship. But we have

Benjamin in Dublin, Ireland, who says, Can you point to any instructions in the

New Testament given by our Lord or his apostles where we are to sing uninspired hymns, spiritual songs, or psalms individually or congregationally?

The apostles never wrote a single song or gave instructions to do so.

We are commanded to sing from the psalter which Jesus and the apostles sang and quoted from.

Okay, he made an assumption there that that's all that the Lord and his apostles were singing, but if you could respond to our friend

Benjamin in Dublin, Ireland's question slash comment. Yes, well, of course, our brother reflects in his question probably the more strict view of psalm singing only, possibly, and we know that within the communion of the body of Christ, particularly in the

Reformed community, it takes singing seriously and views it that it should be

God -honoring, biblical, etc. There have been branches of the church historically, and they're still around, that view that the regulative principle would only allow the singing of psalms and then uninspired hymns are not permissible.

But when you read the New Testament, my position, my response would be when you read the

New Testament, you do not see a legalistic rigidness prescribed by the apostles.

The New Testament is strangely silent about it in ways, and when you read

Ephesians 5, 19, and then Paul in Colossians almost mirrors the same thing to the

Colossians. Ephesians 5, 19, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the

Lord, and when you break down those three words, psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, and you look at the etymology, you see more of a broadness, that there's these categories that are permissible, apostolic permission to sing in these different ways, and so I see a liberty there in the

New Testament that the Church is given to sing beyond just singing inspired scripture.

Think about this. We preach uninspired words.

That's right. Sermons are not directly inspired, they're commentary on scripture, and we're not commanded, we're commanded to preach the

Word, preach the whole counsel of God, and so singing is the same way, and when you see the history of the

Church, if we're truly honest, you see the hymn writers of Luther and Spurgeon and John Wesley and Habergall and Fannie Crosby and Andrew and Horatius and Bonhart, and I could keep naming hymn writers, the hymns they wrote are such incredibly rich deposits of truth that have blessed the

Church over the centuries that it's hard for me to embrace the more narrow view that we can only sing psalms, so that would be my reply to our dear brother, and I can honor him for, you know, if his conscience binds him to that view, but I do not think we can bind one another's conscience in such matters.

Yes, I'm assuming that our exclusive psalm singing brethren would say that the verse commanding that we sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs would say that those are three different categories of psalms,

I'm assuming. Well, I'm not sure how he would interpret or reply,

I think to look at the words themselves in the original language, and I wasn't prepared to do that this hour, but so.

Now, I've also heard that there are portions of the New Testament that are believed by many biblical scholars to be songs, or at least a couple that were, a couple of verses that were in the

New Testament that were originally intended by the human authors to be a song.

Have you heard this? Yes, well, of course, obviously, Mary's Magnificent is traditionally viewed that in a big way, and then

Philippians 2 on the person of Christ and his humiliation traditionally was sung historically by the church as a hymn, and there are other sections, so that's certainly valid, yes.

Yeah, and I've heard Colossians chapter 1, 15 through 20, 1

Timothy 3, 16, and Hebrews 1 and 1 Peter 2, that they may have been sung at least by the early

Christians, but one other thing is that when you are involved in exclusive psalm singing, you can never sing the name of Jesus and praise to him.

I understand that Jesus existed as the second person of the Trinity in the Psalms and in the Old Covenant.

He never had a beginning, but by name I'm speaking of specifically, you can't, if you're only singing the psalms, you can't sing praises in the name of Jesus.

Well, that's a good point. So, there's much that would have to be left out that could be sung regarding the gospel and other things.

And aren't the average psalters that are used, the phraseology has even changed from the original in some fashion to be able to be sung in the

English language, aren't they? Well, exactly right. Yeah, you look at any psalter or any hymn book that has both psalms and hymns in it, that's exactly the case.

It's been edited to make it singable. So, you're singing biblical truth, but you're not singing the direct scripture as it is written.

So, that's a very, very valid point. Well, thank you,

Benjamin. I hope you still keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron, even though our guest and I disagreed with you on this.

But I'm assuming you would think that it's a very commendable thing to include the singing of psalms in worship service, and many of the best hymnals do have psalms put to music in the hymnals.

And the congregation where I'm a member, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, we not only have hymnals in the pews, but we also have psalters in the pews.

I mean, wouldn't it be wise to include the psalter or sections of it in the hymnals?

And we have, let's see, we have

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who says, Is the reason why the

Evangelical Church's view and practice of worship due to their lack of the reverence for the

Holy God of the Bible? I gotta reread that because I'm not really getting the grammar here.

Is the reason why the Evangelical Church's view and practice of worship due to their lack of the reverence for the

Holy God? I guess I should rephrase this because I'm not really understanding the way he has written this sentence.

I'm assuming he is just asking, Are many Evangelical churches today lacking reverence for the

Holy God of the Bible in their worship? I'm assuming that's what he really means to ask. Well, if that's what he's asking, the obvious answer is yes.

The way we sing, the way we worship completely is a reflection of our view of God.

And our view of God must be shaped by Scripture, a high view of God, a reverential view of God.

That doesn't mean we don't have a joyful view. It doesn't mean we can't sing with our emotions and sing joyfully, but a lack of the true knowledge of God and a lack of a right high view of God is reflected in much contemporary worship.

And it's sad. There's a silliness. There's a shallowness.

There's a cotton candy. I don't know what you call it.

There's a shallowness about much modern singing that is irreverent, and it brings

God down to a much lower level, and it's very sad. Well, I want you to have at least five minutes to conclude the program today to leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds about the importance of singing before we run out of time.

And then if we have time to take a couple more listener questions, we will do so. Well, the same thought relative to the subject of the first hour, our speech and our words being redeemed, our tongue being redeemed.

Believers in our day, one of my burdens and my desires is for Christians to elevate their views of how important things are in the

Bible. We should get our mind renewed to what the

Bible actually says about our speech and the importance of our words, and that it matters to God immensely.

God himself hears our words, and he counts them as either good words or bad words.

They're either words of the righteous or they're words that are worldly. And so we need to elevate our view of our speech because it's so important throughout the

Bible. The same thing is true of singing. I wish every

Christian in the world could take to heart more seriously how important the

Bible places singing of Christians.

Christians are the only people in the world that have anything to sing about. When you really think about it, this world is passing away in all its lusts, but he who does the will of God endures forever.

Believers are the only ones that have anything worth singing about.

And so if we can take this to heart, and if we can bring the practice and the habit of singing to the prominence it should have in our lives, it will change our life individually.

It will change our church life. It can change our Christian life.

I'll close with this. Reformed Baptist pastor Tom Wells from Ohio said this, singing

God -centered hymns and songs is desirable, but more than that is needed.

We always sing what we feel and what we believe, and when we discover the greatness of God, we will sing it.

We will sing the greatness of God, and our songs will echo our convictions.

Amen. And I knew Tom Wells. I was so delighted to have a number of opportunities to have fellowship with him.

And I also know the young man that has taken his place there at the

King's Chapel in Cincinnati, Ohio. And I'd like to plug that congregation and that pastor

Dustin Battles, who was actually a pastoral intern at one time at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I am a member.

That website, if you'd like more information about the King's Chapel in Cincinnati, Ohio, is kingschapelbaptist .org.

kingschapelbaptist .org. And we have a listener, let's see,

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wants to know, is it true that the Reformers returned the singing to God in worship back to the congregation, whereas in the

Church of Rome, the congregation and the ordinary layman were restricted from singing at one point in history prior to the

Reformation? Well, Chris, I'm afraid I'm not enough of a

Reformation scholar as far as the history to be able to answer that question.

But what you do see from the Reformation onward is certainly a revival of singing, just like Martin Luther brought the gospel and the

Word of God, as did Tyndale and the English Reformers, to the common man.

And singing was a widespread, powerful fruit of the

Reformation. And that brings another thought too. Times of historic revival and spiritual awakening, singing has exploded in the hearts of believers everywhere.

There have been pastors and others who have recorded in times of revival when they would be walking home.

I think Richard Baxter from Kidderminster, the Reformed pastor, said that once the gospel swept the village where he ministered, he could walk through the streets and he could hear songs and hymns being lifted up almost in every home in the village.

So Reformation and revival has really always revived truth singing in the church.

Amen. And in fact, I have heard about the very thing that our guest, or should

I say, our listener, was asking about in regard to the

Reformation restoring singing to the congregation. And one last thing

I want to ask you, Mac, don't you think that musicians in the church have to be very careful as not to overpower the singing with their instruments?

I have even been in the worship services of very theologically sound and biblically faithful congregations, very

Reformed and Calvinistic, etc., with very traditional music. I'm not talking about blaring electric guitars or anything like that, who have had brass instruments and other things, classical instruments, and yet they were so loud.

When you looked around you, it looked like people were just lip -syncing to nothing.

They were just moving their mouths and you couldn't even hear anybody singing. I mean, that's a problem, isn't it? It is a problem because church musicians should realize that the singing and the worship is not about them and their music.

They should be able to be forgotten, and they're not the focus.

They're not performers. The music should be played in such a way and at such a level that it doesn't, it's not too loud and it doesn't drown out the singing.

It should support and accompany the singing. So I couldn't agree more. This is a very, very important subject, and I do know this fall

Keith and Kristen Gittier are having a conference on singing in Nashville.

I don't know the dates, but there will be some wonderful encouragement on this very subject through the

Getty's ministry in Nashville this fall. Yes, and as I said earlier, Keith Getty is going to be one of the speakers actually preaching a sermon or delivering a message in addition to singing at the next

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia. So remember that website for more information on that, g3conference .com.

I also want to let our listeners know that, God willing, on Tuesday the 22nd of August, my guest will be

Pastor John Price of Grace Baptist Church in Rochester, New York, and he's going to be speaking on a similar subject that we are addressing today.

At least it's connected in some way. We are interviewing John Price on his book Old Light on New Worship, Musical Instruments in the

Worship of God, a Theological, Historical, and Psychological Study. So mark your calendars for Tuesday, August 22nd.

And I want to make sure that everybody has Mac Tomlinson's website. It's providencedenton .org,

providencedenton .org. And of course, going back to the

Fellowship Conference New England, the website is fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. Any other contact information that you care to give? No, that's it.

And I want to thank you, brother, for being my guest again today, and I want to thank the Reverend Buzz Taylor for being on the program as my co -host, and I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who wrote in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.