"Who is God?" -Debate between Christian Pastor and LDS Member

All right, and we are live. I am Pastor Braden here with AJ, and welcome to Reformed Ex -Mormon.

And for anybody that is able to watch this video, I welcome you, and I hope that this is edifying and God -glorifying for you today.

Today, myself and AJ, AJ is an active LDS member, and I myself am a Reformed Baptist, a

Christian. And today, we are going to be discussing a very, very important topic of who is

God. And I have the privilege, like I said, to have AJ on here with me. AJ reached out to myself to want to discuss this topic in a semi -formal debate system like we have here today.

And so, like I said, I hope that this kind of a video blesses our listeners, whether you be LDS or a

Christian or whatever you might be, an unbeliever, an atheist, an agnostic. I hope that this video would bless you in these ways.

So before we begin in our introductions, I just want to give a quick rundown of how this live debate is going to work.

Both AJ and I, myself, are going to give introductions to ourselves, which will be about five minutes each.

After that, we'll get into some opening arguments, where AJ will be going first, having 10 minutes.

I will follow with the 10 -minute opening argument, after which we'll then go into some cross -examinations, and where we'll be somewhat informal in asking questions back and forth between AJ and myself.

And during that time, I would encourage our audience, if you're watching this live, to start asking questions, as it'll take a little while for those questions to load and be on our screens.

After we're done with our cross -examination, those questions will then be asked to each other.

And I would ask, if you're making a question, to direct it at one of us, or if it's a question for both of us, to direct it to both of us in those ways.

So that is the plan for the day. After the Q &A moment, we'll then have closing arguments, where AJ will go first, followed by myself, and then we'll end the live stream.

So on that note, AJ, I'll let you start with your five -minute introduction and testimony, and anything along those lines would be welcome during this time.

But I'll go ahead and hit my timer and put myself on mute, and I'll let you introduce yourself. Hello, I'm AJ Hill.

I've been in the church since I was 9 years old.

17 of those years, or excuse me, up to the age of 17, I was inactive, active, not really engaged in the work.

So I left after I was 17 years old. And before that, before I became a

Latter -day Saint, or a Mormon at the time, I would call them, because if you're not a

Latter -day Saint and you're just kind of in it just for the show or for the ride, then you're not really engaged.

But anyway, so before that, my family was nonreligious, really. We had a few churches around the neighborhood, and we had frequent them on occasion, mostly

Baptist or Pentecostal or Presbyterian, whatever the denomination.

I'm not sure, but they were mostly Christian -centered churches. I moved to Madeira from Bakersfield, and up here we were introduced to the church.

We joined, me and my brother and my great -grandmother, but my mom and dad were not engaged.

Most of the time they were disengaged and not happy about the situation. So I'm not a longtime member with any lineage, but once I turned about 32, a woman that is my ex -wife now, she decided she wanted to go back to church.

And I'd tried this before, but never really got the feeling or got engaged.

And something happened. It's been the last 23 years, it's been

I've been engaged. I love it. I can't get enough of it. That's why I'm doing this debate, because I don't have enough people to talk to at work.

So I think that whenever I analyze if I could have believed in a

God or not and how I was able to have a

God in my life or Jesus Christ, it was because of Joseph Smith and his story.

I don't have any other avenue in my mind that I could have ever had a relationship with a loving

God and his son, because nothing that I was listening to outside of the church was connecting with me in a spiritual way.

And we know that spiritual is one of the things that it binds the soul and the mind and the heart together.

Without that soul, heart and mind engaged in spiritual things, you cannot truly have a connection with God.

And like I said, now the other ones out there, I'd listen to Walter Martin, I'd listen to, which

I had a tape of, I listened constantly. Hank Kinegraph, Alan Murray, just anything that and I and there were several others.

I just listened to Christian talk radio or Christian everything.

I was definitely engaged and my research at the time was the

Bible. I did not engage in any other book except for the

Bible when it came to figuring out what truth was. And so I came to a conclusion of what

I seen truth was. And then I was compelled to choose one of those ideas because I could have chosen none of them, but I chose the church that fit my theology that I came to conclusion to after reading the

Bible. So I'm going to defer my time to Brad, Brandon.

Brandon, excuse me. Yes, you're good. No worries. Yes, that's right. Yeah, Brayden. No, thank you for thank you for that introduction.

So I hit stop on yours. And I just want to remind because we have three people watching. And at one point we had seven.

So I wouldn't encourage anybody that's watching this right now to share this on different social media platforms so that we can have multiple people watching this and have a better Q &A moment, which we'll have after our cross -examination.

So, AJ, thank you for that introduction. I appreciate that. So you are currently an LDS member, is that right?

An active LDS member? Yes. Okay, perfect. So I'll go ahead and hit my timer right now and I'll introduce myself.

And just for those that are watching, I'll be putting this up here every once in a while just to show everybody that we are trying to be consistent with the times and be as pleasant as we possibly can towards each other, but still have this be a somewhat formal debate.

So I'll hit my time right now. So, yeah, my name is Brayden Patterson. I grew up in an

LDS family that had strong ties within an LDS community. I have four brothers and a mom and dad who

I love very dearly and love me as well. I had been in LDS for 19 years and had graduated seminary with all four years of seminary and all my hundred scripture masteries memorized.

And it was after, while attempting and while studying and preparing myself to go on a mission,

I met a lovely little lady who is now my wife, but at the time became my girlfriend, who

I was highly encouraged to convert by my family. And while being

LDS, I knew in my heart that if anybody was going to preach to her what the

LDS believe, I would be the best one at it. And that there's no way that she could deny the truth argument that I would make to her.

So after dating her for about a month, I gave her a book of Mormon. And the next following night,

I talked to her for about one to two hours in her driveway. And during that time, I talked to her about who

Jesus was, according to the LDS, Joseph Smith, the necessity of temples in our lives, eternal marriage, the plan of salvation, the plan of happiness.

Just a really solid first lesson that a missionary would give to somebody is what

I went through with my now wife, but at the time girlfriend. And she listened to me the entire time for without saying anything, without interrupting me.

And she was very kind in that way. And at the end of my conversation, I bore my testimony to her.

And I knew that what I just said could not have been said any better. And I knew what I just said was true.

And she looked at me and she said, that's stupid and not in the Bible.

And it hit me like a brick of trucks right then and there that I had just been saying was absolute truth to that was what

I was just saying was absolute foolishness and wrong. And so I went home that day.

We ended that conversation. I went home. And now, looking back seven to eight years later, somewhere in that time frame,

I have still yet to find a single thing that I told her in the Bible as being truth that I told her that night as being part of my testimony of why

I was LDS. Since then, I have had great men and women that have been placed in my life that have discipled me in different means in different ways.

And I have now became a pastor in a little church in Hagerman, Idaho.

The church is called Valley Baptist Church. If you're in the area, I would highly encourage you to please come and check us out as I would love to talk with you and share with you the

Christ that I know and see in the Bible today. And so the question of who is God is fundamental to me, and it is central to my belief in how we obtain salvation, who he is, and who we worship, who we ought to be worshiping.

And so it's so important to me that we are having this discussion. So I am very thankful to have AJ on here as we are discussing these things.

And I'm trying to think of any way else I could talk about. I'm representing a Reformed Baptist Christian thinking of the

Word of God, Christian and Orthodox view of the Trinity, our triune God, according to the

Word of God. I believe in the five solas, so I hold Scripture as my authority, and I'm doing this debate for God's glory alone.

And on that note, I will concede the rest of my time, which on that note, are you ready to begin our opening argument and opening statements,

AJ? Yes. Perfect. So like I said, just to remind everybody that's listening to us right now,

AJ is going to start with giving an opening statement, an opening argument. And this is on the topic of who is

God. And he'll have 10 minutes of uninterrupted time, after which I will give him a summary of what he has told me, not saying that I believe in what he told me, nor is it when he does it for me, he's saying that he believes in what

I've said. But this is a way that we can show each other that we've been listening to each other's arguments, and therefore we are being respectful in those ways.

So if you are ready, AJ, I'll hit the timer, and I'll hit start right now.

Thank you very much, and I've enjoyed your story. And I appreciate those who are listening to us or watching us live.

I learned something unique a few months ago as I debate on Facebook and all that.

God is not petty. We are here to be proven, not because he doesn't know our hearts and our minds before we've done what we've done in life or the events that we choose to partake in, but we don't know.

And he loves us. And he knows that each one of us is dynamic to being an individual in the universe, not singular -minded, not one person in the universe or in this galaxy or in this world is single -minded.

And he understands that more fully than we can understand ourselves. I want to give you some numbers to help you realize the dynamics of what eternity is, because if we don't understand what eternity looks like, it's really going to be hard for me to fully engage in a conversation with somebody that doesn't look at the universe the same way as I do.

Because, for one, I use the universe and its physical laws and how it affects the micro and the macro as a foundation of how

I read scripture or how I move about life, determining what is right and wrong and how

I can be successful in my spiritual life, my temporal life, and my social life.

The social life being more demanding than anything. You've got to be on your knees for that more than anything.

But let me give you some numbers. There's 30 trillion cells in the human body.

30 trillion. You can look this up on Google. I've looked it up several times.

And within each cell, there's 100 trillion atoms within each cell.

And if you were to count every atom that was in the universe, which there is no number that we can think about that could ever count that many, but there's a number of them out there.

You would still come within less than 1 % of what eternity looks like.

If you were to count every atom in the universe, and you were to times that by 100 ,000 years, that would still not be eternity.

There's no number for it, but at least you can understand that the word eternity has some relevance in our thinking when we talk about the creation, who is

God, when is God, and where is God, and all these dynamics. See, most theologies out there start out from an age where people believe that the earth was the center of the universe and it was flat.

And so they also chose to have a God that was the most powerful existence in the universe.

I was listening to Hugh Nibley, and he talked about a gentleman,

I didn't get a chance to look this guy up back in those ages, where they said that anything that existed that was physical was corrupt.

So they made God an incorruptible God by displacing him as not being a physical anything.

So we have basically a God that's just an idea anymore, and no longer has any relationship to us, except for a presence that comes through Jesus Christ, or the

Holy Ghost. And we have one that's called the Father. I want to read you a quote from one of my favorite albums in the rock era.

A man named Pete Townsend from The Who wrote this in his song. And he talks about a child that's deaf, dumb, and blind.

And his name is Tommy. And some people have heard the song Pinball Wizard. But here's a quote.

And it says, and Tommy doesn't know what day it is, because this is

Christmas, and they're celebrating Christmas at this time. He doesn't know who

Jesus was or what praying is. How can he be saved from his eternal grave?

So can we expect a child who's deaf, dumb, and blind to know

Jesus the same way as a person of full consciousness with all its abilities, eyes, ears, mouth?

Can we put the same conditions on that child as we do ourselves, or have all the capacities that God has given us?

So we haven't got into who is God, but we'll get there. I know him not to be petty.

And if I was a fly on the wall in that kingdom, and the father asked the son, you know, there's some of them down there that say that you're the brother of Lucifer.

Especially those people have called themselves the Latter -day Saints. Does that matter to you?

I would imagine Jesus says, no, I just want to love you and to love each other.

And that's really, if you think about the commandments that he talked about when he was asked by somebody who wanted to tear him down.

He says, the question was, what is the greatest of all commandments? And he says, this is the commandment, that there is only one

God, that they should love him with all their heart, mind, and strength, and to love their neighbor as ourselves.

So let's get to another incident that happened many years ago. A man named

Hugh Nibley, if you look him up. He died of a pen, he was wondering about whether the afterlife existed or not.

And he went to a ward that he wasn't familiar with, didn't know the people there.

And this has happened back in the 20s, or thereabouts.

And he was drawn in by the bishop and says, hey,

I want to give you, I want to talk to you after the meeting. And so they went into his office and he gave him a blessing.

And in that blessing, he says, you'll have your answers within the week. And so during that week, sure enough, he had appendicitis rupture and he died on the table.

And because of that experience of that near -death experience, he was able to come back and realize that what his concerns were about the afterlife were all taken away.

And we have another child back in the 2000 era. His name is

Colton Burpo, and I'm going to read this to you off my other screen. So I'm going to look away.

Colton Burpo, a young child who died on the table, operating table, with appendicitis rupture.

Coincidence. And he claimed that he went to heaven. And he says, as a young child,

Jesus was really happy. God really, really loves us. Jesus is right next to God.

Jesus really loves the children. Jesus died on the cross so we could go see his dad.

So I wanted to illustrate another incident with Stephen.

Now, most people, the problem with reading scripture is we walk into narratives that have been taught to us.

Even me, if you'll give me about another 30 seconds plus. Yeah, I'll let you have another minute.

No worries, brother. You can finish that up. Sorry, not brother. AJ, excuse me. Brother's good, too.

I think we're both human beings. But this is the account of Stephen.

Now, like I said, most of us read the Bible and we just go along with everybody else's understanding and we really don't get engaged.

But this is what it says. This is after he had talked to the high priest or the people in charge for almost forever.

And he was and this is what was described. This is what is described by the apostle who wrote this.

It's not his words. It's what's described because this is what he's what the apostle says.

But he being full of the Holy Ghost looks up steadfastly in heaven into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

That's what the apostle says. That is he is interjecting his understanding of what's going on.

Because now just before Stephen was thrown out of the city.

This is what Stephen is says to the people. This is quote from Stephen.

And said, Behold, I see the heavens open and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.

He's not quoting a verse. He is telling us matter of fact what he sees. And I will end it there.

Awesome. Okay. So, so to repeat back to you some of the stuff that I was able to pick up from what you said that that our design with our 30 ,000 cells in our body is 30 trillion.

Oh, man, I was far off then that that that's that is the idea or that's not even scratching the surface of how long eternity is that the idea that God is incorruptible was was brought about by.

I can't remember the gentleman's name that you said, but was was by man was quoting one of the ancient fathers of the church.

Okay, gotcha. And then also, that's that a child that dies on the operating table that might even be deaf, dumb or blind is going to be in heaven with Jesus because Jesus died on the cross so that we can be with his dad.

And then you quoted about with Steph and seeing into heaven and seeing God and Jesus next to God.

Is that correct? Yeah, that's a good summary. Okay, I'll leave it at that because we is that acceptable to you for what

I understand. The song is the song is what

I was quoting from an album, Tommy. Yeah. And it's he's deaf, dumb and blind and they're asking a secular world is asking the question, how can he be saved from his eternal grave if he doesn't know

Jesus? I gotcha. So would it also be fair just so I know where you're coming from on just one question, which

I will go more in depth on these kind of things in the Q &A moment, just so I know where you're coming from as well. Would you say that that Jesus, the

Spirit, the Holy Ghost and the Father are three distinctly divided beings, that they're not one being one

God, that they're separate individual people? Would that be fair enough to say?

It's more dynamic than that. We could. Okay. There are individuals.

And then there is the collective, meaning that the universe in itself is one mass.

Between me and you, there's no separation. It's just one whole.

And in the world, in the dynamic of God, all things are one with him. Okay. Because even if you were to say that God was separated from the universe because he created the universe within his own sphere of existence, he's still dynamically attached to the

Son and the Holy Ghost as a Father. I gotcha. I gotcha.

Well, so I'll go ahead and hit my 10. Is it okay if I, since you did around 11 minutes, is it okay if I get 11 minutes as well?

Okay. So I'll hit start right now on my side. And as long as what

I said was acceptable for you as a summary of what you said in your time. Is that right? Okay.

Thanks, AJ. All right. We'll start right now. So, yeah, to know who God is is of absolute vital importance.

In fact, if we get the idea of who God is wrong, according to John 17, verse 3, we do not have everlasting life.

And we also see that in the same way that we are to know who God is, we are also to know who

Jesus Christ is. Because in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, 1 through 4, in the sword of summation of the gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to scriptures.

And so the idea of who Jesus Christ is has to be that which is according to scriptures. Same thing with God.

In fact, in Matthew chapter 7, verses 22 through 23, we see that in the last day many will call out to Christ and say,

Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and performed all these many mighty miracles in your name.

They profess to know Jesus and Jesus responds to them. Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity.

I never knew you. And so the question of who God is has everlasting consequences.

And if wrong, we will spend eternity in eternal fire, according to John chapter 15, 1 through 6.

So defining God in his fullness, meaning that I can conceive everything that who God is, cannot be done because God surpasses all understanding and is too wonderful for us,

Job 42, 1 through 6. But I do say, and I would absolutely believe that God has sufficiently revealed himself in three primary ways.

The first being through creation, Romans 1, 20 through 23. The second way being in his incarnation,

Matthew 1, 21 through 23, and John 1, 1 through 3, and verse 14 and 18 as well. That no one has seen

God, but the only begotten God has explained him. And so that would be the second way that we can understand who

God is, is through his incarnation, his becoming flesh. The third way that we understand who God is is through his inspired word, 2

Timothy 3, 15 through 17. So using tota scriptura, meaning that I'm using all of scripture to tell anybody my definition of any doctrinal belief that I believe in, especially of that of who is

God, I rely on scripture alone. And according to scripture alone, God is a monotheistic

God, meaning that there's no gods before him nor after him, and that he is the only creator and sustainer of all things,

John 1, 3, Hebrews 1, 3, Colossians 1, 17. I'm going to read for us just some

Bible verses right now. I'm going to start in Isaiah chapter 43, verses 10 through 13, so I would encourage anybody that has a

Bible to please follow along. Verse 10 of Isaiah 43, you are my witness declares the

Lord, Yahweh. That's what that term Lord is in that text in the Hebrew, Yahweh. And my servant whom

I have chosen in order that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me there was no

God's form, and there will be none after me. I, even I, am the Yahweh, the Lord, and besides me no savior, as it is

I who have declared and have saved and proclaimed that there was no strange God, Elohim, among you.

You are my witnesses, declare the Yahweh, and I am Elohim. Even from eternity

I am he, and there is none who can deliver out of my hand. I act and who can reverse it. In verse 15, we would also see,

I am Yahweh, your holy one, the creator of Israel, your king.

I want to read from one other area here in Isaiah chapter 44, verses 6 through 8. It says in there, thus says the

Yahweh, the king of Israel and his redeemer, the Yahweh, which is the same word that we would find

Jehovah from. So the Jehovah of hosts, I am the first and I am the last, and besides, and there is no

Elohim besides me. Speaking of that same Jehovah or Yahweh. And who is like me, let him proclaim and declare.

Yes, let him recount it to me in order from the time that I established the ancient nations, and let them declare to them the things that are coming and the events that are going to take place.

Do not tremble and do not be afraid. Have I not since long announced it to you and declared it, and you are my witnesses.

Is there any God, any Elohim besides me, or is there any other rock? I know not none.

It also repeats itself in Isaiah chapter 45, verses 5 through 7, and Isaiah 46, 5 through 9, which

I will not be reading at the moment. But looking at Isaiah chapter 44, verses 6 and 8, there are many terms that are applied to God in that text.

The first one I will make mention of is him being the rock, and there is no other rock besides him.

We see Jesus Christ as being referred as the rock in Matthew chapter 7, verses 24 through 25. Acts chapter 4, verses 10 through 12.

1 Corinthians 10 through 10, verse 4. We also see him being referred to as king. John 12, 15 makes it clear that Jesus Christ is our king.

He's also known as the first and last in Isaiah chapter 44, and the same idea is represented in Revelation chapter 22, verse 13, where he is saying that he is the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.

And this is, once again, applied to Jesus Christ. He's also known as savior and redeemer in that same text, and we would see that in Matthew chapter 1, verses 21,

Psalm 19, 14, and Romans 3, 23 through 24, that Christ is our only savior and our only redeemer.

But most importantly, out of all these terms, the one term that is most important to apply to who

Jesus is or who God is, is Yahweh, or the capital word of Lord.

In correlation, especially to Elohim, we would see that this word is first used in Exodus 3, 14, and 6 ,000 times all throughout the

Old Testament, as it is God's explicit name that no one else has the right to, and it is his memorial name from generation to generation.

So we can clearly see from the Bible verse that there is no gods before nor after him, so he is monotheistic in nature.

So we would also see that throughout both the Old Testament and New Testament, that there are three persons or subsistences that claim the attributes that only the one singular being,

God, possesses. And some of these attributes are such as creator, resurrecting, indwells, omnipresence, omnipotence, sanctifying, eternal, and is called

God. And that would be in Philippians 1, 2, John 1, 1, Colossians 2, 9, and Acts 5, 3 through 4.

And we will have many other verses that we can go through to show these things. But each three of these persons or subsistences has a will, speaks, and demonstrates love, and performs different acts in different ways.

So for my definition of who God is, using scripture alone as my authority to define who

God is, the Christian's conclusion is this. There is only one and true living

God, whom there are none before nor after. He exists in and of himself and is not dependent on anything or anyone, as he is the one and only self -existing being and essence,

Yahweh, I Am. In the divine infinite being, God, there are three subsistences or persons, the

Eternal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Eternal Holy Spirit. These three persons or subsistences are co -equal, co -eternal, and undivided in essence, but distinct in their subsistences or persons.

Christians are to worship God in trinity and trinity in unity. There is not three eternals nor three almighties nor three essences, but there is one eternal, one almighty, and one essence.

But we do not confuse the Father with the Son, nor the Son with the Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit with the Father, but we confess that there is one eternal

God and three co -equal subsistences. Why is this important? Why is it important that we have this right definition of who

God is? Because Jesus Christ himself claims to be that God that I just defined for us using scripture.

In John chapter 8, verses 23 to 24, which I'll read for us now, it says in verse 23,

And he was saying to them, You are from below. This is speaking about their nature. You are from below, I am from above.

You are of this world, I am not of this world. I said therefore to you that you shall die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.

And that word I am is the same word that is used in Exodus 3 .14 and 6 ,000 other times, including

Isaiah chapter 43 through chapter 46. It is the explicit name of God that Jesus Christ uses of himself, and he says if you do not believe in him in that way, you will die in your sins.

Now, I would also like to just make reference to Luke chapter 5, as I don't have enough time to read it all for us.

But Luke chapter 5, verses 15 through 26, we see something particular happen in there. Jesus is surrounded by this large crowd of people.

A paralytic man is lowered through the roof to be able to see Jesus, and he lays in the middle of this room.

And Jesus seeing this, he says to him, because of your faith, your sins are forgiven you.

And the Jews, the Pharisees at the time, heard Jesus saying these things, and they started to think to themselves and talked amongst themselves, and they said, this is blasphemy.

Who is he that is a man that can forgive sins? Only God can forgive sins. And that comes from Daniel chapter 9, verse 9, and that is true.

Only God can forgive sins. I cannot forgive AJ's sins, nor can I forgive my own sins or anybody else's sins.

It's God alone that can forgive sins. But instead of Jesus Christ rebuking what the Jews have said, he instead validates the fact that he has the right to forgive sins because he is

God in flesh by causing the paralytic man to stand, walk, and go home.

And therefore, all the people there started glorifying God in this way. So the reason that the

Jews crucified Christ was not because they were hypocrites, nor were they conspiring in these different ways to kill

Jesus. The reason that they went to kill Jesus was because Jesus claimed to be

God in flesh, and that comes from John 5, 17 through 18, John 8, 52 through 59, 10, 30 through 33, 13, 19, and also chapter 18, verses 4 through 9 and 19 through 7.

And in those accounts, we see that the Pharisees attempted to kill Jesus Christ by stoning or by claiming that he being a man has made himself equal with God, him being a man has made himself out to be

God, and him being a man has made himself out to be the Son of God. These words, these terms are synonymous with each other.

And as we can see now, if we go back to 1 Corinthians chapter 15, 1 through 4, that the gospel message of Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to scriptures is only good as long as we're defining our

God properly, our Jesus Christ properly. And since it is I, since I and anybody else that's watching this, everybody that's underneath the sun has sinned only against God and him alone, it is

God himself that must pay the price of our sin for there to be a true forgiveness that takes place.

And since I have sinned against God alone, Psalm 51 verse 4, we see God himself becoming flesh, becoming obedient underneath the law, living the life that I cannot live, dying the death that I deserve, taking the wrath that I deserve for my sin, being buried and rising from the grave in great victory, validating his previous claims, just like the paralytic man validated his claims of being able to forgive sins.

So on that note, that is my time. That's what you just heard going off in the back there. Go ahead and give me my, how would you explain what

I just said? So what I've listened to is that you are a Mothiistic, that is there is one

God that also allows you to say that there is also a

Jesus Christ, a Holy Ghost, and the Father who work co -equal to, not co -equal, but work within the dynamics of God to bring forth his glory.

Is that correct? That's fair enough. I would say that the three persons work differently in their economic view of the

Trinity, but in their ontological view of the Trinity, they're all fully God being of the same essence and being

God. But no, that is adequate for what you just said for me.

Yeah, I figured you could explain it again. I understand. Because I totally agree with that.

Now, the other part, you brought forth Scripture saying that if you don't know the true

God, if you don't know Jesus, then how can you be saved?

And you say without knowing God that the true

God, without that, then your salvation is not guaranteed because of that lack of knowledge.

Is that correct? That would be fair. I wouldn't necessarily say lack of knowledge, but lack of relationship.

Without that relationship aspect, without worshiping God as who he is, without having faith and assurance and reliance on how

God has described himself as, we have no salvation. Okay, very good.

And so you also quoted many verses that show the monotheistic

God. There's no God beside me. I know no other God. And that is repeated multiple times throughout

Isaiah. And there's also reference to that understanding in Deuteronomy and in Exodus when he says do not bow before any other

God or there's only one God. So you also had mentioned that he is the creator, redeemer, resurrection, and also that Jesus Christ is the

God incarnate. Is that correct? Yes, that is absolutely fair. So from this point, since I'm accepting what you just described to me,

AJ, are you good to start with some Q &A time between you and I asking questions? Absolutely. Perfect.

So let me, before we jump right into that, let the people know in the chat, please start posting your questions as of right now.

That way, as soon as AJ and I are done with our cross -examination, from that point, we can just get right into Q &A time with each other in those ways.

During this cross -examination, I'm hoping it'll be 10 to 15 minutes. If it's shorter, if it's longer, that's okay, as neither

AJ and I have anywhere to go immediately. And AJ, I just want to tell you again, thank you very much for being a part of this.

And, yeah, so on that note, since you are my guest, I'll let you ask the first question or two. How about that?

Very good. And, again, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity. The only people

I debate is on the streets and at work. So I'm getting started with this part of my life.

So now the quotes that you quoted in Isaiah, which referred to the monotheistic

God, is he declaring this to Israel or is he declaring this to the world?

Yeah, that's a great question. So Isaiah is prophesying about an event 200 years after his day.

So it's written around somewhere in the 700 B .C. period, and he's prophesying about Israel being taken captive by Babylon.

And so he is talking to this both to Israel, but Israel is to be a light to the entire world.

And so, therefore, by that application, I would say that this is given to the whole world, but in that specific context, it's being given to Isaiah and to the people of Israel and then to the world.

So why was God speaking to Israel in this manner?

Yeah, so it's prophesying about in Babylon when they will raise up statues of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebo, and Bel, and they're going to be worshiping false gods that the people of Israel, and we see that even in Daniel, that there was only four men that were unwilling to bow the knee to the statue

King Nebuchadnezzar had made. And so that means that all the people that have been taken into captivity were bowing to false gods.

And so God in this text is saying, look, you're false idols that you are building.

There is no such thing as a God besides me. You are building a false idol. That's why it is a false idol, because there is no other

God in my understanding of the text. So they were building idols in their hearts and their minds at the time, versus the cap that they were building physically during the time of Moses when he was up on Mount Sinai.

Is that correct? Yep. And now I'm going to shift a little bit, just a little bit, but we're still staying in Isaiah.

Absolutely. Jesus Christ, what was His ultimate destiny that He needed to achieve once He became physical here on this earth?

Yeah. So His ultimate goal, I would also say, comes from Isaiah chapter 43. I think it's in verse 25.

It says that He is going to take away our sin and transgression for His own glory. So I would say

His ultimate purpose is to glorify God in the redeeming of man through His death, burial, and resurrection.

And how was He going to do that? Through His death, burial, and resurrection. So in order for there to be the death, the penalty of sin is death,

God had to become man and take upon Him fully God's nature while still remaining fully

God, take upon Himself fully the man's nature so that then He could stand in our place and become sin on our behalf so that we can maybe make the righteousness of God in Him.

Do you trust that the people, especially those who had the authority of the day, the high priest, were angry with His remarks of being

God? So let me repeat back that question. So the high priest of His day were angry with Him to the point where they wanted to get rid of Him in the most vicious way.

Is that right? Of Jesus' day? Yes. Yes, I'm tracking you now.

Yes, they were mad because their only accusation they could bring against Jesus was blasphemy, and that was

Him being a man was making Himself out to be God, and that's because He was using that word of, I forgive your sins, and Yahweh or Egoemi in the

Greek. So He was claiming the same name that is only God's name. So would you agree that to the

Jews at the time that God could not be physical? God in His essence and being,

He is not physical. God is spirit, but God can take upon Himself the nature of man.

I understand that. I'm asking a question about this. Were the Jews under the same dialogue as you are to say that God is spirit and no other?

I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. I would say that, no, they could not hear those things because according to Isaiah chapter 6, their eyes were blinded and their ears were deaf and their hearts were hardened.

So, yes, they could not realize that God became flesh and fulfilled Isaiah chapter 2 and Isaiah chapter 3, as well as Psalm chapter 22, which all the prophets were prophesying about Christ.

They could not accept those things. And so in the Isaiah chapters and also within the book of the whole entire

Old Testament, would you say that Jehovah, who becomes

Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, the God with us, does He not direct the minds of the future generation so that they become so angry and to elect to put them on a cross?

Yeah, so that is a great question. Yes, I would say that God did create the

Jews for that specific purpose. In fact, in Acts chapter 4, it says that He did both appoint both

Pontius Pilate and Herod to do exactly what God had predestined for them to do, and that was to crucify

Christ. So everybody that was there around the cross was sovereignly predestined to be there, but that was still their responsibility to not commit sin, and they did commit sin.

They actually committed the most atrocious sin, which was killing and crucifying the perfect Lamb of God. And so whenever they were condemning

Jesus Christ, they were using the law. Is that correct? They were attempting to, yes.

Well, that's what they did because they were able to force the hands of Pilate based on Jewish law.

This man was blasphemous and proclaimed to be king of kings, which I'm not trying to make a statement.

Is that correct? Yeah. So I would add to that, that Pontius Pilate, his determination of who

Christ was, was that he had found no guilt in Him, and he only turned Him over to the Jews to be crucified because he was worried about the insurrection of the

Jews. And also for him saying, we have no king but Caesar, he was worried about his position more so than protecting who

Christ was, and so therefore he turned Him over to the Jews. Absolutely. I agree with that. So now we have, now again, if the final destination for Jesus Christ is the cross, in order for the

Jews to have such anger against Him, the verses in the Old Testament would have to at least strongly not push them into the idea that God is only a spirit and can only be spirit and there's no other

God beside me, and I know no other God. Yeah. So I would say that all the

Old Testament prophets, Abraham, Moses, anybody that you talk about, they looked forward to the types and shadows of what was representative of Christ in that day.

And all the scripture in the Old Testament taught, and according to Luke chapter 24, all of scripture taught of Jesus Christ and His coming.

The reason that the Jews did not accept who Jesus Christ was, was not because they were obedient to the law, but because they did not see

Jesus as God in flesh, which I would argue that that's exactly what the LDS are doing today, is they're saying that that is not the one and only

Yahweh, living God, becoming flesh. I would say that it's the same argument that the

LDS are making today. Does the LDS church say that Jehovah is

Jesus Christ? No, but yes, but not Elohim. You're correct.

So is it okay if I ask you some questions now? Yeah, absolutely. Is that okay? So I would like to ask you.

I've got a list of questions about law. That's good, and I like it. I'm enjoying these kind of questions. Just a background real quick.

I told you that this is my specialty, so I can do this all day long. And I like the questions,

AJ. I really do. So I'm enjoying it too, so we can have longer time for questions. So my question actually comes from Isaiah chapter 45.

So we've already established, you and I, that Yahweh or Jehovah is Jesus Christ, right? That is the proper description of who

Jesus is. So why in Isaiah chapter 45, verses 5 through 7, it says,

I am the Yahweh, and there is no other besides me, speaking of the same Yahweh that just spoke,

Jehovah, there is no Elohim. I will gird you, though you have not known me, that men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides me.

I am the Yahweh, and there is no other. The one forming lightness and creating darkness, causing well -being and creating calamity.

The Yahweh, the Jehovah, does all these things. So why is it that in verse 5 specifically, it says,

I am the Yahweh, and there is no other besides me, there is no other Elohim. Okay, so let me quote

Genesis 1 .1 real quick. In the beginning, Elohim created the sky, water, and the earth.

Okay, so Elohim actually is a plural Hebrew name for God.

And so when he says that there is no Elohim, then he's referring to multiplicities of God that are introduced into Israel's minds and hearts at the time.

That would be one of the explanations. But again, he's not saying a name Elohim.

See, now, again, the word Elohim is a description and not a name.

Jehovah is a name. But so much of even in the

LDS church has taken on the fact that the name of God is Elohim.

But it really is, if you look at some of the more recent scholars, they're saying, no, this is...

And if you look at Hebrew language, you can see the word Elohim is referencing to gods.

So who in Isaiah chapter 43 to 46, in the whole book of Isaiah, who is it that's speaking in there?

It is Jehovah. Is it Jehovah or Elohim? Okay, so it's Jehovah. So the word or Jesus, right? Right. So why is it that if Jesus knows everything, besides maybe his second coming from Matthew chapter 24, if he knows everything, why is he saying that I know no other

Elohim besides me? Because he's saying gods. And so if he's saying gods, that he's telling the people that you're setting gods before you.

When we set a TV or something, entertainment before us, and we have put our time and effort and our love into that one thing, it becomes our

God. And he doesn't recognize that God. Because if what you're saying is correct, that there is no other gods, then

I don't see that as being a New Testament, correct, in the

New Testament or in Genesis chapter 1. Where he is... Genesis chapter 1 is an introduction of who

God is. Right. So I would say that the three that we see once again in that New Testament, the

Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are all of the one essence being God. But they exist in that subsistence or persons.

And so therefore, I have no issue with the text like this. But correct me if I'm wrong. You're saying that Jehovah is a separate being than Elohim, a separate being than the

Father. Why is it then that he just says generally in multiple places throughout the

Old Testament, but specifically here in Isaiah, that he's saying over and over again? He's trying to, again, incite people when he comes to be so vigilant against him that they eventually put him up on a cross.

Okay, so who are we supposed to be worshiping, Yahweh or Elohim? Elohim, or excuse me, the

Father. So is it okay if I have you look at Isaiah chapter 6 with me then? Yeah, absolutely.

Isaiah chapter 6, and maybe we won't necessarily have to read it all, because it's a chapter.

So I wouldn't want to read it all. But in Isaiah chapter 6, we see that Isaiah sees...

and I'll wait for a second while you turn to it. And I encourage anybody that's in the chat to open up there too. I'm gonna have to put my chairs on here for a second.

No worries, I understand. Oh man, it came out. So Isaiah chapter 6, right? We see

Isaiah in the throne room of God, and he sees God sitting upon his throne in this temple.

And his train fills the whole room. And this is where it's important. It says,

Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory. Are angels worshiping

God in this text? In the year of Uzziah, I saw also the

Lord sitting upon the throne high and lifted up.

And his train filled the temple. And one cried unto another and said,

Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory.

I can only answer that with David's word in the Psalms where it says,

My Lord sat on my Lord's side. So when you look again, when I talked about before in my opening,

I said that when you look at God, we dynamically see them as one and the same because it's a governing body.

So which individual of that governing body is receiving worship in Isaiah chapter 6? Because he says he sees the

Lord sitting on his throne receiving worship. Which person of the Godhead is receiving glory according to you?

I wasn't there. So I don't know. Is it okay? I mean, if you're going specifically by what the scriptures say, and that's what

I do. I'll allow you to use scripture, and if I can't answer it, I'll exceed the point. And that's okay. And I don't have all the answers either.

So I understand that for sure. So if they're worshiping Jehovah, it's correct because he is looked upon as being someone who is to be worshiped because of his, again, being the son of God and being the apparatus in which all things were created.

Nothing was created but by him. And in the beginning was the word. The word was God and the word was with God.

So yes, to worship Jesus Christ or to worship Jehovah gives nothing less to our father in heaven.

It just shows that Jehovah is to be revered also.

Let me just read a quick text with you real fast because I'll show you where I'm going with this. So Revelation chapter 22 verse 9 says, and he said to me, do not do that.

This is after John falls down at the angel's feet to worship him. And the angel says, do not do that.

I'm a fellow servant of yours and your brethren, the prophets of those who heed the word of this book.

Worship God. And so my answer is we only worship God. You said that we are only supposed to be worshiping the father.

And according to John chapter 12, which quotes Isaiah chapter 6,

John chapter 12 verse 41. And it's just right after it quotes

Isaiah chapter 6. It says in verse 41 of John 12, these things Isaiah said because he saw his glory and he spoke of him.

And that's speaking about Jesus Christ. So in my opinion, it was God who received worship on the throne in Isaiah chapter 6.

And it is the same God that we see being in John chapter 12 that is dwelling amongst men that Isaiah saw and spoke of.

And then according to Matthew chapter 28 verse 17, it says that the apostles fell down and worshiped him.

In Revelation chapter 5, we see that the lamb that is able to open up the seals of the book that no other individual is able to open up, that he's able to open up those things and that all the 24 elders and the angels fall down and say, worthy, worthy are you thou to open up the book that you are the almighty.

They worship God in those texts. And so my argument is that the LDS has said the father is different, distinct and divided than the son.

And we are to worship the father only. But in the text, I see the contrary. I see God being worshiped, and that includes both the father, the son, and the

Holy Spirit. PASTOR BARRY And so if I could refer to Scriptures also, and I've got a few of them.

Again, if we go back to Stephen and what did he see? I want to ask you a question if you don't mind.

Because in order for me to answer your question, I'm going to have to ask you this question. What did Stephen literally see when he looked up into heaven based on Scripture, based on what he said?

He said not what you can bring in from, because I'm not going to try to bring in anything.

Whenever you said something in Isaiah, and I conceded the point that it was Jehovah, and I have no problem with that.

I'm going to challenge you to say just based on this Scripture alone, in Acts 7, verse 56, what does he see?

PASTOR MIKE So AJ, I'll be honest with you. I would not hope or hold that you should just use one Scripture first to build any doctrine.

And I'm not saying that you're saying that. It's challenging. It's a challenge. And I'm just letting you know that I will refer to other

Scripture. But after I answer, just using your one verse that you brought up there. So when Stephen, it says that Stephen...

So let me, in Acts chapter 7, verses 54 on on, it says, Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him.

But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

So the direct context of verse 56 is that he is one full of the

Holy Spirit. And that it seems to me that this is a vision because he's seeing into the heaven of God. And he says, what does he see?

He sees the glory of God and Jesus sitting at the right hand of the God. And so according to verse 56, but let me finish though.

According to 56, that's the antecedent to what is taking place.

So when he says he saw God, it is immediately in the context that he was speaking of seeing the glory of God, not the physical being of God.

And that's according to John chapter 118, that no one has seen God, no, not one. But that it's the son that has explained him.

Okay, but if you look at 56, or excuse me, 55, this is actually an explanation by the apostle, not a direct quote from Stephen.

Is that correct? Oh, this is recorded for us by Luke.

This is not Stephen that's recording this for us. But is Luke describing an event or is he quoting

Stephen? Luke being full of the Holy Spirit inspired by God who wrote scripture in verse 55.

Luke is not an apostle. What's that? Luke is not an apostle. He's a disciple. Luke was inspired to write both his gospel.

That's fine. But again, but Luke, but reading it as it's written and not interjecting our own narratives and whatever those narratives is, is

Luke describing in 55 an event? Luke 55? Yes. He's describing an event.

Yes. So now in the words of Stephen, what does he say? That he saw.

Exactly. That he saw the son of man standing at the right hand of God.

Okay. So now what does Stephen see? He saw the glory of God according to Luke.

According to Luke, not Stephen. AJ, this is where you and I are going to disagree because I would say.

Of course we're going to disagree. That's why we're debating. I would say, let me explain this. I would say that there is no such thing as a contradiction in the word of God.

Absolutely. And therefore, I have to also apply harmonetics to the text, which says that I have to read things in context and use all of the surrounding things to come to any conclusion.

So how then do you reconcile a text such as, let me think here,

Romans, or not Romans, John 1, verse 18. I didn't get that one down.

So John, you should be able to quote it to me. Yeah, I can if you'd like.

So there's... I got it right here too. And there's several places that I'll take you here on this question. Okay, so no man hath seen

God at any time. Okay, so is not Jesus Christ God? Jesus Christ is

God. So if no man has seen God, but they're looking at God face to face, then what are they seeing?

So what does the rest of the verse say? Sorry, you just put your readers down, huh?

Yeah, which is, in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. So the only begotten

Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. So again, if Jesus Christ is

God, and always God, and never leaves that position of being

God, then the verse that you're reading is you're either reading it out of context, or Jesus is lying.

Because if He's God, and He's standing right there, and He's telling people that nobody has seen

God, then what's... That's a great question. AJ, I see where you're going with this.

So John, and maybe we should have started in John 1 through 18. But in verse 1, it has already made it clear that there's something going on where it says, in the beginning was the

Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So it makes already that differential. And then in verse 18, it says that no man hath seen

God, but the only begotten God has explained Him, or has shown us to Him, or has revealed

Him to us. So I would then go to John chapter 14, the same author of John chapter 1, and read verses 7 and on.

And it says, if you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on, you know

Him, and have seen Him. Are they seeing the Father, or are they seeing Christ? They're seeing Christ. They're seeing Jesus Christ. And so then

Philip says this. Philip says this. Philip then goes on to say this, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.

And Jesus said to him, have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen

Me, or he who has seen Me has seen the Father. How do you say, show us the

Father? So my argument is, is that no man has seen the Father. No, not one. No man has seen

God in that way. No, not one. He didn't say Father. He said God. They're different ideas.

So John chapter 5, it says no man has seen the Father. John chapter 5,

John chapter 5, verse 37 says, And the Father who sent

Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen

His form. So I would also point you to 1

Timothy 6, 15 through 16, as well as Exodus 33 through 20, Colossians chapter 1, 15, and Hebrews 1, 3.

That no man hath seen the Father. And so AJ, this is where I'm saying I think it's my accusation that Joseph Smith fundamentally lied.

I don't base my understanding of God based on Joseph Smith.

I refer to him because if he said he's seen the Father and the Son, if Stephen said that he's seen the

Father and the Son, and Colton said he's seen the Father and the Son, then I could probably find a lot more people that have had those same experiences.

I just didn't look them up. Yeah, so where do you go to challenge a prophet if somebody's telling the truth or not?

I don't challenge the prophets. I challenge my interpretation.

Okay, so my argument is that according to Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18, I am to test anybody that claims to be a prophet.

And the ways that I do that is seeing if their prophecies come fulfilled or if they're teaching a different God other than the one of the

Bible. We're not talking about a prophet if Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. We're talking about who

God is. Totally, totally. So what I'm saying is... Again, when I came to a realization of what

I understood about God and which denomination had the same understanding that I did, it was only the

LDS Church. Even though Arnold Murray, who's a pastor who's dead now, his son took over, the

Shepherd's Chapel, I loved him because he had the same kind of ideas. And a few years ago,

I talked to an apostolic preacher from a town near me, and I thought

I was going in there for a debate. Yeah. And so what it came down to is he believed in divinization.

He believed in the God more closely to LDS Scripture or LDS thought than most

LDS people did. Yeah. I'm not gonna have no fun. No, and I appreciate you bringing this up because I want to stay on the topic of Jewish God.

The dynamics of God being more than just because if we're...

Again, if you look at when Jesus Christ comes to Mary, he says, do not touch me.

And that's not all anybody reads. But it says this. Do not touch me, for I have not sinned to my

God. And go tell my disciples that I go to their God, who is my

God, and to my Father, who is their Father. So how can

Jesus Christ, fully resurrected, fully being God, make such a statement?

Yeah, so in Luke Chapter 24 and John Chapter 20, where you're talking about, John Chapter 20, where he says those words, he does not forbid anybody from touching him.

In fact, he encourages people to touch his physically resurrected body. I know. I'm building up my answer.

I know. I'm building up my answer for you. He does not discourage anybody from touching him. In fact, he tells people to touch him, to put people's hands into his side.

The issue of what Mary is doing is it comes in the context of her wanting to know where Jesus's body is.

She couldn't believe that he was resurrected, and she wanted his body. And so Jesus is saying to her, in essence, an idea of what he's getting out to her in the context is,

Mary, do not hold on to my body because I'm not always going to be here. You are to worship me, worship me on my throne, and to not cling on to my body.

You are to look to me on my throne and worship me in those ways. It's how I would say that in the essence of what he's getting out, isn't it?

You really had to work around that one. And I'm not being disrespectful.

I'm just saying that's what it sounded like to me that here we have a direct quote from Jesus Christ, who also will eventually tell us that no man knoweth the hour or the day that I come, nor the angels, nor myself, only my

Father in heaven. Again, so he just prophesied all these things to the apostles.

And yet he knows all these things, but yet he's separated from knowing what the

Father knows. So Jesus knows everything that the Father knows. Are you sure?

I would absolutely say that. Because he just said that he didn't know, only the Father knew. Where are you quoting from?

It's in Mark. Are you talking about Matthew 24, verse 36?

No, I'm talking about Mark. Okay, let's go there. Yeah, Mark 13, verse 32.

But of that day and that hour, and let me put this on you,

Luke not being an apostle but a disciple, Mark is also a disciple and not an apostle.

Most people don't understand that. They think that chronologically or somehow that all these guys in the Bible are called apostles when actually

Mark and Luke are just disciples and they are hanging out with Peter and Paul. Like I said, whenever I quote from Mark, I'm actually quoting maybe

Paul or Peter in this too. I can't remember which one. You're going to be quoting Matthew as well, which

I'll appeal to here in a second. But I'll let you finish what you're saying. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels, which are in heaven, neither the

Son, but the Father. So yeah, go ahead.

So what is the question that he's answering in that text? Do you know the question? So the disciples are saying when is this event going to happen?

Yep. And what's the event that he's referring to in there? So the second coming. Nope. In Matthew chapter 24.

So let me explain this to you and I'll try to do this in the fastest way that I can as this would take a while. But Matthew chapter 24 comes after Matthew chapter 22 and 23.

Matthew chapter 22 is where he cleanses the temple. Matthew chapter 23 is where he gives the seven woes to the Pharisees.

The question that is posed to Jesus in Matthew chapter 24 verses 1 through 3 is that when will these take place?

And this is after Christ has just looked. He's sitting on the Mount of Olivet looking at the temple saying that there's no stone will stand upon another one.

He's talking about the destruction of the Jerusalem in 70 A .D. And therefore the apostles say, when will this day take place?

And so Jesus answers them. And then they also ask him, when is the consummation of the age in there?

And so the consummation of the age is speaking of a marriage type of language. When is the second coming?

When is this marriage type of language? And so Jesus says in verse 36, in the proper traditional context of the

Jewish Pharisees of the day, the Jews of that day was it was to give honor to the father to say that the marriage date was decided by the father and no one else.

Even though everybody around the town, everybody knew when that was going to take place.

Nobody said that they did because it was honoring the father because the father got to dictate when the marriage took place.

Okay, that's why Jesus says that. And I agree that the text is based on the walls of the temple coming down.

But in Matthew, he doesn't talk about himself as being unknowing of the event.

It's only said in Mark where he says, neither the son. No, in Matthew chapter 24, verse 36, he does say that no one knows, not the angels, nor the son, but the father alone.

Okay. I know what you mean. So in Colossians chapter 1, verse 19, it says for it was the father's good pleasure for the fullness of deity to dwell in him.

And Hebrews chapter 1, let me turn to that real fast. Hebrews chapter 1, verse 3 says, and he is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his nature and upholds all things by the power of his word.

When he made purification of sins, he sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high. He has the exact representation as the father

Jesus Christ does. He has the fullness of deity dwelling in him, and therefore he is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.

And in fact, we would also see that Peter, when they are, when Jesus says, feed my sheep, and he says,

I love you, Lord. He says that Peter says, in Matthew, it says that Peter says, you know, all things.

Jesus Christ knows 100 % all things. Peter says that, but does Jesus Christ state that fact?

Jesus Christ says, I am the self existing one. Well, yeah, we know that he's, we know, we agree that Jesus is

Jehovah of the Old Testament. That's not a problem. So what I'm referring to, what I'm saying is

Peter said that he was all knowing. Jesus Christ is always deferring to his father when it comes to many things.

Even if you look at the William Tyndale version of Mark, where he says, where there's no one good except for God.

It says in there, in the William Tyndale translation, it says there is no man good except for God.

So again, what is, what I'm saying is he's always deferring to his father as being, because we also have in John, he says in John, let's get to it.

John Chapter 10, I believe, John Chapter 10, he says, my father is over me.

Yeah. And so, and whatever, and whatever God or whatever my father deifies basically, then therefore he is given that.

So, so AJ, there's a lot that I can go through on that.

John Chapter 19, verse 28 says that Jesus knowing all things have been accomplished. So Jesus does know all things.

And in Philippians Chapter 2, to answer your question about how the father is above Jesus, in Philippians Chapter 2, verses 6 through 10, it says who, although he existed in the form of God.

So Jesus is being in the form of God, did not regard equality with God, a thing to be grasped, but he emptied himself, taking the form of a bond servant and being made in the likeness of men and being found in the appearance of man.

He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross. Therefore, God highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name, which is above every name and that the name of Jesus, every knee should bow.

The point of that text is, is where is God the father at while Jesus Christ is being crucified? God, the father is on the throne receiving worship from angels.

Where is Jesus Christ being God in flesh at on the cross where he should be receiving worship, but instead he's being rejected and crucified.

So, yes, he is underneath the father because that has to do with the economic view of the Trinity. It's not the father that became flesh.

It's not the spirit that became flesh. It is the son that became flesh. It does not change their essence.

It does not change his deity. It does not change his nature. It has to do with where he is at in respect to the other.

And one of the videos that I watched, you were doing the Brad Wilcox ideas for the gospel.

One of the things that you talked about in that perspective was whenever God or whenever Jesus Christ says,

I and the father are one. Yep. Is that now in Chapter 17?

He describes what that one is. Is that correct? Not necessarily. He talks about the apostles becoming one as I and the father are one.

Yeah. So we have to understand that in John Chapter 15, he has already made it clear, or John Chapter 14.

I'd have to open it up and look. But in there, he says that you are of the world. I am not of the world, but I'm calling you out of the world and sending you unto the world.

And so he's already established that by nature, the apostles are not of divine nature.

And that's according to Ephesians Chapter 2, that by nature, we are children of wrath, that we are conceived in iniquity, that we are children of the devil.

We are swayed by every influence of this world. And that comes from John Chapter 8. And so the issue that at John Chapter 17 when he gets in that is he's saying, look, you used to be of the world, and now you are of me, and I'm sending you into that world.

John Chapter 10 where he says, I and the father are one. What do the Jews try to do after Jesus Christ says that?

They try to stone him because he being a man was making himself out to be God. Doesn't he say in there that is it not written that ye are gods that I have said?

I said, again, he says, is it not written that I said ye are gods?

Now he's claiming himself to say that I was the one who was speaking to David, referring to who was considered the judges at the time.

And at the time who were considered gods, because if you is the word

God just the supernatural being or the supreme being?

Is that the only way that we can use the word God? So where is he quoting from in there in John Chapter 10?

Do you know where? That's just that's 37 or something.

Let me get there. I thought I had it up on my screen here. Oh, here we go.

Probably. Let's see. And I'll quote this right here. Yeah. My father, which gave them me is greater than all.

And no man is able to pluck the father. And that's in 29. Yep. And 30. Okay, let's let me get there real quick.

You can see I took my tears while I'm while I'm cheating here. The other day when

I was at a funeral, I didn't need my cheaters. And now I understand. It's like amazing thing.

I was like, Holy, I understand. I know. AJ, let's finish on these. Yeah, we can get into some

Q &A moments. But no, I so. So can I just let you know where that comes from? It's it comes. He's quoting from Psalm Chapter 82.

Right. If you notice in John Chapter 10, that the word God in there is lowercase.

And he's quoting. What is it? It is. It's lowercase in John Chapter 10.

Unless you're seeing in your translation. Of course. Yeah. Because the word

God is just not the Supreme Being. It is anything that affects or is a nature or man or even the highest loft in a balcony.

Yep. It's called God. So you ask. When we talk about the word God and somehow that God knows no other

God. He's not talking about the how to define the word

God. He's talking about how people are abusing. Yeah. The people they're worshipping.

And because God knows eternally how to use the word God in a multiplicity of ways, more and so than man.

Yeah. So when we talk about God or not knowing another

God, he's not referring to not knowing how people are using the word to describe.

See, the word God is actually that which has dominion or is worshipped or has effect over nature or man or the loft in a balcony.

So AJ, you asked me a question about verse 34, about why does he say that you are the children of God? He's quoting from Psalm 82, where in there he says you are the sons of God or you are gods because just as the priests are representative of God, so is the lamb representative of Christ that judges are the representative of God.

And so in there, he says he's speaking of wicked judges in Psalm chapter 82, where John chapter 10 is quoting from.

And he says, you are gods, but you will die like men. God does not die.

Men die. And so what Jesus is doing in John chapter. God just died on the cross. John chapter 4.

So John chapter 10, 34, he's saying you are a wicked judge and you will die. Eventually man will not die just like Jesus Christ didn't die eventually.

So Jesus Christ in his incarnation, in his being fully man, he can die.

Yes, he can. God does not die. Man has that same capacity not to die because of Jesus Christ.

Is that right? Man will die because for the wages of sin is death. Yeah, that's of course.

But I'm just saying because of Jesus Christ, man eventually becomes an immortal being. We still suffer death though.

We still suffer death though. We still suffer death. I'm not eternal. God is eternal. So is Jesus Christ. Right.

Okay. So yeah. So are you, are we good to move on to ask some questions from the audience here?

Okay. So we got 11 people watching right now. And so I'm backing up a little ways because it looks like AJ, it looks like you are everybody's favorite as everybody's asking you questions only it looks like.

So let me, let me ask you just a couple of questions here and maybe I'll jump in and answer it in my way. Right.

And so then therefore we can be a little bit fair. But Jedi geek said he was the first one that asked a question.

When Christ died, did darkness cover the land for three days or for three hours?

And he's referring to Luke chapter 23 verse 44 and comparing that to Nephi. I'm assuming that's a third

Nephi. I'm not sure. Nephi 8, 19 through 23. Okay. So in a volcano eruption, you'll have darkness for days and days on end.

Especially the kind of, if you looked at the eruption of Mount St. Helen many years ago, the people were, it was pretty dark for a while and I couldn't tell you how long, but I know that considering the cataclysmic events that were happening at the time of the

Nephites, yes, they are in darkness for three days, literally because of the cover of the sky because of all the soot and ash that is in the sky.

Okay. So I don't need to answer that question because I don't appeal to the book of Mormon. So we'll go on to the next one. R &B

Studios asked a question for AJ again. Define eternal. Is God eternal? And if so, according to LDS doctrine, can you become a

God? Again, whenever I described eternity, we couldn't even describe it really.

We can only see, we can only understand the word eternity in such a lame way.

Like I said, if you look at the body, it has 30 trillion, 30 trillion cells.

And when within each one of those cells is 100 trillion atoms.

And if you were to count all the atoms in the universe, you would still not see eternity. I got you. So you're saying what number we come up with when it comes to eternity, it doesn't exist.

So you're saying that eternity is still within time, right? But it's just hard for us to conceive. You can't, you can't, because it exists without, without benefit or without, what would you say?

If God is eternal, he has no beginning or end. All things that are of God are eternal.

Whether it was because of his foreknowledge of what he created or what he did create.

Now, I do not agree with LDS theology or Christian theology that somehow that we have a universe that's created.

I don't agree with that because the numbers don't match the idea or the assumption.

Because if you look at the, if you look at the universe, and again, if you were to say that the universe was created by God in a six day period, less than 10 ,000 years ago,

I would say, then how in the world are we seeing the galaxy Andromeda with our physical eyes?

That's 2 .5 million light years from Earth. It would take 2 .5 million light years for that, for those, that light to reach

Earth. So again, if you look at the universe, the universe is 96 billion light years in distance.

If you look at the, how many planets are in each galaxy, there's over 400 million just planets that are able to have life in just a milky way.

400 million. I've seen numbers as far as 30 trillion planets within each galaxy.

And there's 156 billion galaxies in the universe. So the numbers are so staggering.

That's why in the story of Abraham, when God says, the stars of the stars, and he equalized, he brings us to an understanding that it's like the dust of the earth.

They're one in the same number. And at the time, they couldn't understand that idea.

But now we've seen the majesty of God's work by the sheer numbers that are out there in the universe.

Again, so if you have a creation of the universe, you have to explain how all these objects are being created now in time, and the earth did not take shape in that same manner.

So how I would answer, how I would define the eternal is that there's no beginning nor end, according to Isaiah chapter 43.

And that is God, he's outside of time, and that nothing exists apart from him, John 1, 3.

And that he is from everlasting to everlasting, Psalm 90 verse 2. So another question for you,

AJ. Everybody's asking you questions. So this one comes from R &B Studio again. Why haven't you quoted anything from Joseph Smith, your prophet, or the

Book of Mormon, asking for a friend? Because I came to my conclusion based on the

Bible. Okay. So whenever I'm engaging in a debate about the

Bible and what it's, how people interpret it. Yeah. And so I don't,

I could refer to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I love them, and I absolutely, well, anyway, like I said.

As you said, you wouldn't believe in God. It's not about the Latter -day Saint doctrine. It's about how interpretation of the

Bible and who is God. So to answer that question for myself, I don't quote

Joseph Smith often, but I'll quote him one time right here. And I know that you might not hold to this teaching,

AJ, but I would like to quote Joseph Smith since that was the question. So this comes from the teachings of the prophet

Joseph Smith. It says, I am going to tell you how God became a God. We've imagined and supposed that God was

God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see.

It is of the first importance of the gospel to know for certainly the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as man converses with one another and that he was once like a man.

Here then is eternal life to know the only wise God and to, and you have got to learn how to be gods yourself and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you.

And so I don't quote from Joseph Smith in reference to truth as I would consider him a false prophet according to Deuteronomy chapter 13 and Deuteronomy chapter 18 as I stand upon the word of God alone for my authority.

So are you okay if we go on to the next question? Again, if you look at the numbers

I just give you when it comes to eternity, when you can't and we can't even describe it, even if we can say 100 trillion, that's not enough years, tens of thousands of years to describe what eternity is.

And you would have to convince me that only 2000 years ago was the first manifestation of this

God that ever existed. And in the numbers of the planets that are capable of having life on them, you would have to say that this is the only planet out of 400 million planets in the galaxy, our galaxy, that sustains life.

And I can't, for whatever reason, I wouldn't agree with that for the life of me because again, we ourselves are looking to colonize other planets.

We ourselves are looking to create science to actually bring

DNA, DNA life or bring life beginning before the

DNA is even created. So we ourselves are trying to pursue these things.

Yes, and there are attributes of God only, you would say, but the colonization of planets, we're looking at Mars in the next few years of being able to colonize.

So again, to say that this earth is the only earth that God has ever manifested his work on is absurd to me.

So I got a question, I think that somebody is asking towards me. It comes from Peter James. He asks, why did some early

Christians disagree with the Trinity? He does not say who it's towards, but I'm assuming that's what towards me as I'm representing the

Orthodox Christian side of things. I would answer that and asking, first of all,

I would not say that anybody is a Christian that does not believe in the Trinity, that a Christian has to be somebody that believes in the

Trinity. And that according to Romans chapter one, verse 20 on, it says, for since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made.

So they are without excuse for even though we knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish hearts were darkened, professing to be wise.

They became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image of the form of corruptible man and of birds and of four footed animals and crawling creatures.

So this is something that we see all throughout all of creation. Since God created the heavens and the earth, there have been people that have in their fallen nature have changed the image of God into different idols.

And so my argument is, is that the reason I am Trinitarian and other Christians have come to that same conclusion is because they hold to the word of God alone for their definition of those things.

And that would be thus fulfilling Matthew chapter 16, verses 16 through 18, that the gates of hell will not prevail against Christ's church because the word was established.

How would you answer that? Why do you think, according to Peter James, that early on some early

Christians disagreed with the Trinity? Why would you say that? Because it didn't get caught up in Greek theology or mythology.

Greek philosophy. A lot of the fathers, the early fathers, especially after the

Council of Nicaea or during the Council of Nicaea and those ages in there, they were very much attached to Greek philosophy.

Greek philosophy had this idea that there was this

God that was unreachable, could not connect to him.

So they applied that understanding from Greek philosophy into their theology of what

God or the nature of God. And the early Christians or the early saints were saying that God is more approachable than what

Greek philosophy was saying. Okay, so... At least that's my understanding. I'm tracking you.

I like it. And that's all good. So how about we go on to our five minutes, because I don't see any other... I'm sure there are some quotes in here that I'm not seeing, or not quotes, questions.

Are you good if we go on to our five -minute closing statements? Absolutely. We are getting later and later on this topic.

So on the topic of who is God, we both will have five minutes to give our closing arguments, after which we will close the live stream.

So I just want to say again, thank you for everybody that's joined us and watched us. And I hope you enjoy these last final closing arguments.

AJ, you're going to start here. I'm going to hit start on my five -minute timer. And are you good to go?

Absolutely. Okay, all right. Hitting it start now. So just a brief history on my part before I close.

And I want to thank Braden here for allowing me to have this debate.

It's been wonderful. And I think for those who are watching, or eventually will watch this, it's a wonderful dialogue that we actually talk about God.

If we're not talking about God, then we're talking about sports. We're talking about the world. We're talking about everything except for God.

And we're wondering why the world seems so miserable. Because we're attaching ourselves to everything physical, and we're not attaching ourselves to the spiritual side of life anymore.

When we have decided to go away from the holy day of the week and say that God doesn't even matter on that one day, you can see the decline of society.

It's pitiful. Now, I grew up, and all through my life in high school, even within the

Air Force, in boot camp, I had to go to remedial comprehension classes and reading.

So I validate the fact that I'm not a scholarly man.

I hate reading. But I'll tell you what, I was taught by the best.

I know that the words that I've spoken today are not of mine, but they are of God.

I don't have any problems with declaring Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. I don't have any problems with declaring

Russell and Nelson as a prophet of God. I do not have any problems of saying the

Bible is the word of God and the complete word of God. But the idea of reading scripture based on false narratives because somebody else is teaching you false.

How many times have you seen in a classroom or somewhere online or wherever where Adam and Eve is in the garden and the word apple is used for the word which is used for the word fruit?

There's no word apple in that exchange.

It's fruit. But yet we go along thinking that it was an apple.

And then you look at the Genesis chapter 1 and the creation. And I want to just give you, let us make man in our own image.

He's saying in verse 26, I believe, let us make man in our own image.

And then in the next verse, he says, so God created man. So the first one is let us, which is instruction.

And then the second is so God created man after his own image and own likeness.

Again, when we stick with the false narratives, we always seem to go about reading the scriptures in a dynamic way or in a way that is not accurate.

You can see this trend in the Genesis chapter 1 and a couple of other places when he says, go create the fish of the sea, the fowl of the air, and the birds that may fly because all birds don't fly.

All right. So he said may fly. All right. And then it says, so God.

So let it. So he's talking. Now, there's other times in the talking to the word.

The word was with God and the word was God. A creator is a God. So in other verses in the

Genesis chapter 1, you can see where he's dynamically talking to the elements that are before him.

When he says, let the earth bring forth water. And the trees and the herbs and all these other things.

Let the world. So, again, it's if you're not reading the

Bible word for word and its capacity to teach you, then and you're only reading it to scan through because I can say

I read the Bible. And you're not really getting the true meaning of these verses.

Again, if you look at verse 1, it's got so bad that the NIV and so many other new translation have inserted the word

S after heavens or after heaven. Heaven is a singular. The William Tyndall version of the

Bible says heaven singular. The Hebrew Bible says heaven singular.

So, again, the way reason they insert the word heavens is to dynamically look, make it look like that God created the universe.

When God created from within the universe all things that came to be. Perfect. Are you good with that as your closing statement right there?

Absolutely. So I'll do the same thing as with you. I'll hit start right as of now. So I thank

AJ for coming on the show, and I think for everybody to watching this things. And I would like to ask everybody to consider who is more reasonable to what

Scripture has declared for there to be truth. It would be my argument that I think that I have as I use the word of God alone as my authority and what

I stand upon as being truth. For Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the

Father except through me. And the Scriptures teach us of that truth being Jesus Christ. And they are inspired and God breathed for us to be reading and edifying ourselves in those things.

I want to make mention of the Genesis one that he just said here. May let us go and make let us make man in our image.

How many images are we seeing there that is being made? There is one image. Let us make man in our image.

It's speaking of the communicable attributes that can be given to man. And that would be the same language that we see in Matthew chapter 28 verses 17 through 20.

It says, baptize them in the name singular Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit because there is one

God and three persons. Now, once again, John chapter 17 verse 3 says that we that we have eternal life as long as we know who

God is. And if we don't know who God is, it means that we do not have eternal life. And God has been sufficiently revealed to us in creation and his incarnation and in his given word.

And in his given word, it says in Mark chapter 1 verse 14 through 15 that Jesus entered into the city of Galilee, preaching the gospel and saying for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Repent and believe in the gospel. Repent and believe in the gospel. It's the same gospel that Jesus Christ himself preached that I too believe in and I'm saved by and preach to others.

And that gospel is found in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, 1 through 4, wherein it says that if you have faith in it and you stand in these things, you are saved.

And in verses 3 and 4, it says that the gospel is the death of Jesus Christ according to scriptures, his burial, and his resurrection according to scriptures.

So the gospel message is Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. And as I said in my opening arguments, it is

God alone that I have sinned against, Psalm 51 verse 4. And since it's

God alone that I've sinned against and for me to have true forgiveness, it has to be God himself that forgives me.

And how does God forgive me? It is through his incarnation and his living the life that I cannot live, his perfect obedience to the law and the perfect obedience to that which

I have broken. And then his rejection upon a cross, his being pierced to the cross, him having the wrath of God being poured upon him for my sin.

According to 2 Corinthians chapter 5, 21, it says that he who knew no sin became sin on our behalf so that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It is only through the way that Jesus Christ is God fully that I can have forgiveness.

Any other way of us to have forgiveness, if Jesus is not God, it does not mean that we have forgiveness.

It's not true forgiveness. Jesus Christ says in John chapter 19 verse 30, he says,

Tetelestai, and the reason that he says that is because the wages of sin is death, Romans 6, 23.

And since we have sinned and he has not, he says that word, tetelestai, which is a transactional word in the

Greek that he paid the debt in full. In fact, I'd like to read for us in 1

Peter here. I do not have it open, so let me open it up here. 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 24, and it says in there,

And he himself bore our sins in his body on the cross that he might die to sin and live to righteousness.

For by his wounds you were healed. It would be my encouragement today for anybody that would be

LDS, any unbelievers, any atheists, any Muslims or any other sort of religion that is not

Christian for you to repent and believe in the gospel. And that is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God in flesh, the eternal word who has always been

God and has never ceased to be God, the one and only dying, the death that you and I deserve.

There are several other places I can go to in scripture that discuss this. But in finality, I want to just reencourage us that Joseph Smith in his first vision account taught a false view of God.

And how do I know that? Because I have the word of God open and I'm examining the things that Joseph Smith claimed to be.

And in fact, I'm told to do these things in Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18. And we see that if Joseph Smith made a false prophecy or he taught a false

God, he is not a prophet of God. And so my conclusion is from scripture alone, that God is one in being, three in persons.

And Joseph Smith said that he saw the father, the son, and they are separate beings. And therefore, he preached a false gospel, according to Galatians 1, 8, 9.

And he is to be accursed along with anybody else that rejects the Jesus and God of the Bible.

My five minutes went up. I do not know why my time did not go off there, but I think I went over 30 seconds.

I apologize for that, AJ. No problem. No problem at all. I enjoyed it. I really did.

Once again, I just want to tell everyone, thank you so much for watching this live stream. I would encourage everyone to share this with their family and friends, regardless of what side of the argument you are on.

Or maybe you're not even on a side and just want to share with your family and friends. I think that this is encouraging for them to see somebody that is an active

LDS member and somebody that is an active Christian conversing deeply. Right, AJ?

Deeply about these things. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm not deep enough. I'll tell you right now. I've got more.

Oh, no doubt. I have a lot more too, AJ. I really do. So maybe we can figure out another time to do this again.

But until then, AJ, thank you very much. Audience, thank you very much.

God bless. Go in peace. Tell everybody of the good news, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, according to Scriptures.