Engaging "3 Mormons" w/James White

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00:00

I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

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It doesn't really hurt. Is he hung up on me? What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

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Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

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That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:05

Welcome back everybody to Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. We are coming at you guys from a very crazy, kind of post -apocalyptic

01:15

Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona right now, right? Last night was amazing. What time did your power get back on? Um, in the morning when

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I woke up. Yeah? Yeah, it was... Are you serious? What, you went the whole night with no air conditioning?

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No, it was, it wasn't too bad. I mean, the weather was kind of cool outside being thanks to the rain and everything, but I was out driving last night, probably around 6 .30,

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and all of a sudden I could see in the horizon, like this black cloud kind of coming towards Scottsdale, and it was right then...

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The hoo -boob. The hoo -boob, the dust storm just hits, and next thing you know, it was about, I could see about 20 feet in front of me, and I was like,

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I better get home, and pretty much every single stoplight on the way home was out, and everyone's just kind of trying to figure it out and wing it, no police or nothing.

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It was just, I gotta get home, and as soon as I got to my apartment, it was like, EMP, everything's out, no block.

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Yeah, it's wild, guys. So, yeah, Arizona right now, this time of year is actually really interesting. July, August, we get a ton of monsoons, we get hoo -boobs, which it looks like the end of the world, like this massive, huge black cloud rolls across the valley, and it doesn't seem so bad sometimes when you see it coming and you're actually in it.

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It's not crazy, but sometimes it is. Like, it's like blackout, it's wild. Well, yeah, you can't really tell if it's a really bad one until, like, all the trees are falling down.

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Yeah, and they're everywhere right now. Yeah, I mean, it happens every single year, and people who aren't from here, they'll see the pictures of the dust storms with the hoo -boobs, and they'll be like, how do you guys even live there?

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It's so dangerous, and we don't even think anything of it. In fact, I think it was about two years ago, I posted a screenshot from the new

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Mad Max movie where they're driving into the giant dust storm, and I said, man, these Arizona hoo -boobs are ridiculous yesterday, and someone actually said, oh my goodness, what part of Arizona was that?

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I'm like, hmm, and people were just laughing. I didn't say nothing, but it was kind of amusing. That's the reputation that we have.

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Well, yeah, it's wild, it's crazy, so I'm just sharing this across the social media, which I encourage you guys all to do right now. We are going live right now.

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I thought I was special for a moment. Dr. White's a special guest today, and he sits down, and I was like, yeah, so this is our new set.

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I was like, and we live stream our show now. No comment. He was like, because he's... He's like, yeah,

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I've been doing that already. He's like, welcome. Welcome to the real world, boys. Yeah, we've been live since about 1998 or so, somewhere around there.

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So we're never catching up. No, we're far behind. We don't have this stuff.

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I have swords and leather -bound Greek and Hebrew texts.

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Many leather -bound books. Can we get some swords? I have a 1550 Stefano. I know,

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I know, I know. We like ours. Ours is cute.

03:59

I think some weapons along the wall would add a nice touch to this. It really would.

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I thought we've got to do something for this side and this side. Maybe we should do that. May I suggest a Scottish claymore? Yes, right across there.

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Absolutely. Or many of the weapons that are currently in the studio right now. Or a

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Klingon batleth thing. Of course. Something Star Trek. So I'm Jeff Durbin.

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That is Nostradamus right there. Glad to be here today. He hasn't been here on Apology Radio in a long time.

04:28

How long has it been? It's been a while. It's glad to be back. Since we're live -streaming today,

04:33

I decided to bring up a relevant issue. So I'm doing a little product placement today. I have here a plastic straw.

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I just want to let people know where I stand. I think where a lot of us stand in regards to economic freedom.

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I'll leave it at that. I'm excited to be here. You and me will be talking a lot more soon.

04:52

That's right. We'll announce that at the end of the show. A very special thing we're going to be doing very soon. Jerry and I will talk about that.

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This is Joy the Girl right here, guys. Hi there. My straw is a reusable straw. It's still plastic.

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But you're still accepting of Jerry. I'm fine. I didn't even think bad things about it. Didn't even notice it.

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That's what happens when you have a Christian worldview. I have a plastic cup. That's right. Which is a whole lot worse than a straw.

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Way worse. So much more plastic. Sheologians right now is doing great.

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Sheologians .com is where everyone goes. You and Summer are actually coming here to the studio to record your next stuff on Friday.

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Yep. My wife is making meatballs right now. Clementine in January.

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That's coming to my house, actually. Friday morning, I think, while you guys are recording. Very excited about that. And, of course,

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Dr. James White, Alpha Omega Ministries, aomen .org. The Dividing Line. You guys know him well.

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He's one of our heroes. He's on here a lot. So, welcome. Good to be here. We called you in because I ran into an interesting channel.

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It is called... Make sure I get this right. It's just Three Mormons. It's on YouTube. It's called Three Mormons. It's a complete...

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I was hoping it was called just Three Mormons. Just Three. Three Mormons. Which is weird because sometimes there's only two of them on there.

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So, I don't know. I can't figure out who the third Mormon actually is because it's not... It just kind of changes. It's kind of like their view on the

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Trinity. It just kind of changes around, you know? So, yeah. Well, it's difficult.

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We'll get into that. So, I run into this channel, Three Mormons, and the thing that immediately struck me...

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Daniel, did you show me this? Daniel showed me. Daniel Schultz. He's behind the cameras right now. I ran into it and what immediately struck me is that I'm a huge fan of Good Mythical Morning.

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I love Good Mythical Morning. My kids love Good Mythical Morning. They were the dudes. They used to work for VeggieTales. Correct? They'd sing stuff for VeggieTales.

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I think so, yeah. That's right. I'm pretty sure. And so now they have a super popular internet show. It's actually really fun to watch.

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They do some interesting challenges and just a cool concept. Anyway, this thing is a complete knockoff of Good Mythical Morning.

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That's the first thing that struck me. I was like, oh, it's literally how it starts. The a lot of things.

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So immediately I was like, okay, that's familiar to me. But the thing that got me immediately, and they admit to this, is that this is a show that they proselytize.

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They're trying to encourage people to join the Mormon church. So with that... Maybe the third

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Mormon is always the viewer. They're like, maybe? Maybe. Maybe it's you.

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That's right. Hopefully. So Three Mormons proselytize and they have a lot of interesting clips and segments.

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One of them was on the Trinity. And so I hit up Dr. White and asked him, I said, hey, you want to do something on this?

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And so in the process of agreeing to that and deciding to do this, we found some more shows.

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And that had to do with do Mormons believe that they can become gods? There was also another show and it had to do with is

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God married? And so we talked about it. And so we're going to do the show today. And we're going to review some of the things they say.

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And I guess I'll give it to you for a moment and maybe sort of like kind of introduce the whole subject.

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Maybe for somebody who is watching right now, they have no idea the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. Our YouTube channel has kind of blown up lately and we have a lot of people that are subscribing that are brand new believers and may have just no context to this.

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Well, it's interesting. I was just up in Salt Lake City and did a dialogue with a fellow up there by the name of Alma Allred, who is not like these guys.

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Okay, so we've been dialoguing for decades now. And well, we started dialoguing before these folks were born.

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Let's put it that way. So that's how long that's been going on. And talked to a lot of folks up there and your name is very well known in the

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Salt Lake City area. Had a lot of people come up and either they had found you through me or they found me through you.

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But a lot of former Mormons that mentioned the two of us together in their journey out of Mormonism.

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So that's a tremendous thing. Of course, you've gotten to do that primarily through electronics.

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You didn't have to drive that drive. That's right. Up the I -17, up the 89, through Page, Kanab, across the 20,

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I think it is, up these hills, and then the 15, and staying at Motel 6.

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36 times over 18 years, which is what us old folks did. Dr.

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White earned it. I almost got to debate Brigham Young. So that's how long we've been doing this.

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So we've been doing this for a while. But no, it was exciting to be up there to do that and to hear what's going on.

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So listening to these young folks, they seem like wonderfully nice kids. But they are kids.

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It just struck me really, really strongly that they do not see their faith as it developed over time.

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In other words, it was very clear that they've heard this stuff at BYU, Firesides, or whatever else it was, and they don't see how stuff is connected.

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But then again, how many people in the current generation see how stuff is connected in any religious faith, including our own?

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That's one of the great battles that we have to fight. And so they'll affirm the truth of something and not see that that developed from this, which developed out of these two things, and actually for a while Joseph Smith believed this, and then he changed over this.

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The historical context of that stuff, and how the

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Book of Mormon doesn't contain almost anything that we're going to be talking about today, and how

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Joseph Smith didn't believe any of that stuff until 1835, 1836, at the earliest, probably close to 1837.

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The historical development, the relationship of doctrine and teaching, it's just not there.

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It's understandable how they come to conclusions they come to, but my, I hope they'll listen to this.

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I really, I have a feeling they probably will. I hope so. I hope so. I hope they'll listen to this and really start doing some more serious reading, and maybe listen to the other side.

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In fact, I'll just have a challenge for them. When I first started studying

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Mormonism, I was about their age. And I was challenged by Elders Reed and Reese, and yes,

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I did read Christian books about Mormonism first, but very, very, very quickly, you know, like, here's a book on Mormonism.

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Is the Mormon my brother? Of course, I wrote it. But, if you very, very quickly, I saw constant references to Mormon sources.

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And so, I started to go get the Mormon sources. I went to the LDS book and supply store, which isn't there anymore, and I started buying these books, and I remember the day

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I bought the Journal of Discourses, and strapped it onto a motorcycle, and somehow got that 26 -volume set.

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It was in the slipcase. It was the paperback version. Or is it 28? I think it's 26, but it's in the slipcase, and it was $69 .95.

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That's how long ago this was. I mean, that's a pretty good price. That's a really good price. And I started reading, you know,

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Marvelous Work and a Wonder, and Articles of Faith, and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, and I consumed thousands of pages of LDS literature, because what

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I was reading in the Christian books, I'm like, wow, that's really way out there.

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Is that really what they're saying? And so, I can just honestly say,

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I know both sides. And over the years, in going to the General Conference, 18 years in a row, 36 times at the

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General Conference, and having literally witnessed to more than 5 ,000

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LDS missionaries during that time period, as well as, of course, the Easter pageant for years, and years, and years.

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Again, I don't even remember what year you first came, but... 96. 96. Yeah, me too.

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Okay, so we started in 86, or 85. Yeah, yeah. And in fact, my first year out there was 83.

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The 60s stopped at Country Club, the first time I came out. I was five years old when you started coming out.

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Okay, okay, so that gives you an idea. Believe me, I've got some of my grandchildren coming tomorrow, so I feel really old.

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Anyway, so, been doing this for a long, long, long, long time. We've listened to the other side, and these seem like really bright young people.

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I just would really challenge them. Listen to the other side. And in fact, make an offer right now for each one of them that wants, that would be willing to read

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Letters to a Mormon Elder and Isamor and My Brother, my books, on the subject. Contact us. We'll send them to you for free.

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We ain't gonna show up on your doorstep, but we'll send them to you, and we'll, you know, we'll throw in Mormonism Shadow Reality, I'm sure.

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At least the PDF version of it's easy enough to get to somebody. I just had, by the way, just in passing, had lunch with Sandra while I was up there.

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Did you? Oh, that's amazing. We just had a grand old time, because she remembers the first year that we drove up there overnight, three of us, and hit her place in the morning, got changed and stuff at her place, and then spent all day at the temple, and then drove back that night.

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That's how young we were. Yeah. And still almost killed us. No sleep. And still almost killed us. I mean, that was Southern Utah, when you haven't slept for 30 some odd hours, is very, very dangerous.

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We only did that one time. But she remembers when we first started coming up there and doing that type of stuff, and she's just a wonderful lady.

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We'll provide all that information to them if they would like to do that. So, the point being that in listening to what they were saying, they were very confused about what

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Christians believe. And so I will throw in the Forgotten Trinity. My book on the

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Trinity, because they think we're modalists. They think their description of the

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Trinity is just as errant as Joseph Smith's description of the Trinity was in the

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Book of Mormon, because Joseph Smith clearly was a modalist. He didn't understand it either. So I can understand why they don't understand it if Joseph Smith didn't understand it, and that's the extent of their study.

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We'll throw all those things in, but in listening to them, I really, really think that if they would hear the basic issues, which would be this, basically.

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For example, they quote from Irenaeus. They quote from Athanasius. They quote from early church fathers as if there was early church beliefs like theirs.

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What they need to understand is that the key issue between Christianity and Mormonism is the nature of God, and it is their belief that God was once a man.

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That's the issue. Nobody, nobody in the early church believed that God the

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Father was once a man who lived on another planet. So every citation you come up with, anything you do with Irenaeus or anybody else, they all said there was only one true eternal

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God. He had always been God. He had never been anything but God. And you say, well, what about Jesus?

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Well, the gospel is not that men can become gods, but that God became a man and the person of Jesus Christ, and that is a unique, absolutely unique event.

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It's not something that has been repeated on literally billions and billions and billions and billions of worlds in billions of universes.

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So that is the fundamental issue, and they sort of make fun of the idea, well, polytheism, monotheism.

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Look, those are fundamental, basic categories, and if you can't read the King Follett funeral discourse and hear

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Joseph Smith talking about a plurality of gods, then you're not listening to what he's saying, and you're not interpreting him in the context in which he actually lived and the conflicts that defined him over against his opponents at that time.

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You go back and, you know, I just recently, again, I still try to keep up with stuff. I haven't finished it yet.

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I need to get back to it, but I'm about halfway through Bushman's, what's it called? Rough Stone Rolling.

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It's Bushman's autobiography of Joseph Smith, and when you look at the opposition that Joseph Smith had, or people like E .D.

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Howe and Mormonism Unveiled, things like that, very that period of time, they're not talking about the nature of God, because Joseph Smith had not yet developed this concept.

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He tells no one about a plurality of gods in the First Vision until the middle of the 1830s, more like 1837, 1838, that time period.

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That is a concept that develops primarily concurrently with the Michael H.

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Chandler visit, and the book of Abraham, the papyri, and all the rest of that kind of stuff. And so this is an evolution on the part of Joseph Smith over time, but what marks

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Mormonism today is the later Joseph Smith, not the earlier Joseph Smith. The specific, unique stuff.

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Yeah, he starts getting into the temple stuff and endowments and stuff, but it takes the form that it has today with the concept of becoming gods, as they themselves talk about, at a later period of time.

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And that is a fundamental issue, and they need to understand Christians have never believed that, and it is a fundamental denial of the teachings of the

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Bible itself. It's a black and white issue, and that's why there has to be the subjugation of the

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Christian scriptures to the LDS scriptures and the Latter -day Revelation to reinterpret the text of especially the

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Old Testament, but the entirety of the Bible to fit into those things. So, just on that point, when they say,

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Mormons will say, we believe the Bible. As far as it's translated correctly.

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But, what's interesting about that claim is that, like many other religions, they'll say, well, we believe the

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Bible, this is a standard for us, but then they have this external authority or standard that runs alongside of it right here, and they'll give lip service to the scriptures and say, we believe that's

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God's word, it's divinely inspired, but we have this other standard over here that runs alongside of it, and what tends to happen every single time is that other standard always eats the

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Bible up. It destroys it. Well, and interestingly enough, in Mormonism, you have a Bible look -alike that moves you over just a little bit, but doesn't contain the vast majority of LDS doctrine.

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That's the point. And that's because Joseph Smith didn't believe the vast majority of LDS doctrine when he wrote the

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Book of Mormon in 1830. And that then acts as a gateway. We talk about gateway drugs.

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Well, this is the gateway revelation to then move you over into the

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Doctrine and Covenants, and even then, the earlier revelations, you know, weird here, weird there, but not this stuff, but then into the hardcore stuff that you end up with in the

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Pearl of Great Price, in the temple ceremonies, which many LDS leaders have described as revelational themselves, which is why, when they changed radically the endowment ceremonies, which they have a number of times, a lot of Mormons get really upset because, well, is this revelation or is it not revelation?

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And, you know, if you're taking stuff out, was it true before? Is it not true anymore? You know, there's all sorts of issues about that.

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And these kids would not even be old enough to have ever experienced one of those radical changes. There have been two major revisions of the endowment ceremony in my lifetime.

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Maybe a third, but I think primarily just two. But over the past hundred years, wow, if you went back to what it was a hundred years ago, much more explicit, much more mockery of Christian pastors and things like that.

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And these guys seem to be sort of the Gen X, Millennial, you know, we're not putting anybody down.

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If they went back and looked at how the temple ceremonies showed Christian pastors in years past, they'd be stunned.

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But they probably have never heard of anything like that. That's pretty common now. You see groups of people or religions and they're kind of defanged.

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And it's because we live in this, like, culturally that's what people are drawn to.

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That's what you want to put out so that you're not making anyone feel bad. Well, it's sort of like in Christianity too.

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Oh yeah, absolutely. We're having the exact same thing going on in Christianity as well, which is a bit of a bummer on that end.

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But most definitely there, I mean, I've commented over and over again, when we first started going out to the

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Easter pageant, we would be hoarse by the end of the week because the conversations would be constant.

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And you didn't have to trip people up. You didn't have to come up with a really cool sign, you know, to try to trick somebody into talking with you.

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When we went up to the general conference this time, we had a line of Mormons waiting to talk to us.

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We had a line. That is not how it works anymore by any stretch of the imagination. And back then, the young kids, the 9 and 10 year olds, would be arguing theology with you.

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They would be arguing the plurality of gods with you. Yeah, in 96 that was happening.

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Even more so. And already in the late 90s I saw the change happening. You start in the mid 80s, wow.

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I mean, it was a completely different world. Now, you talk to missionaries who are pretty much clueless about stuff like that.

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And they don't want to get into anything where they're saying this is right or this is wrong. In fact, in the 80s when

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I first started studying them, when the missionaries came in, they would start with Joseph Smith's first vision testimony.

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Including, even in the little, I still got the pamphlets they gave out, including his statement that they're all corrupt.

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Creed's an abomination. Abomination. Professors are corrupt. Etc, etc. They don't do that anymore.

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That's not going to happen anymore. Things have changed radically. I was just going to mention, I talked to you a little bit about this before the show, but my first interactions with the

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LDS school that I went to, I was one of the 2 % of the charter school in Mesa, a mile away from the Mormon temple, that was almost completely

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LDS. But there was just, they were, they had a level of objectivity to what they believed.

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In fact, I remember one of the first conversations I had was this guy named Gray Clark, and he said, so you know what the great apostasy is, isn't it?

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You know that you're part of that, right? So he took me right into the verse in Thessalonians, except that there comes a falling away first.

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And, you know, these kids in these videos, they're probably about as old as we were when me and you and Jeff all went out to the temple and met each other.

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But just in talking about the changing world of Mormonism, just the dramatic post -modern shift,

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I've almost, I kind of coined the phrase, I think you mentioned it in one of your videos, it's almost as if you have to convert the

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Mormon to Mormonism before you even bring up the gospel. I use that all the time. Yeah. And now, it's almost as if I have to use

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Joseph Smith's claims of the first vision that he had, that all the other creed, like, there was a restoration.

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All the other churches, all the creeds were corrupt. All the churches were wrong. And so, I almost have to use

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Joseph Smith's claims as a way to counteract their post -modernism. And just, yeah, so just the shift in regard,

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I remember just going out there initially with your tracks and even before the iPads, eventually having to get, put stuff in a backpack.

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Backpack and start, yep, yep. That's why I have arthritis, I'm convinced. We had to put in Mormon doctrines.

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You did not have to do that when we first started. You did not have to carry an LDS library around. The people you talked to knew what they believed.

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But remember, again, when I first started, there was, like, three and a half million Mormons, and now there's, like, fifteen.

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And they did a sixteen. They did a really lousy job of catechesis, to use our terminology.

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But, there's also been a fundamental change in the leadership. A fundamental change in how the church leadership views how to make converts and everything else.

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And it's killing the church. Anybody who looks past just the surface level numbers realizes the back door of the church is now bigger than the front door.

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And it's going to lead to crisis, and it's going to lead to splits, and so on and so forth. That's a whole other issue. And we haven't even played anything they've said so far.

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That's okay. This will lay down some fundamental stuff. It's vitally important. But the point is, they haven't seen these changes.

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They don't know. They don't know the Bruce R. McConkey's. Maybe if they go back and read some, or if they just read

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Mormon Doctrine, I think Mormon Doctrine will sort of, like, go, whoa, man, that guy's pretty harsh.

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Yeah, that's, read Brigham Young. Read the Journal of Discourses. Read any of those things.

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That's classical Mormonism. And what they're getting is the kinder, gentler, edited -down version, which still is incoherent, and it's still not going to bring you eternal life, because you've got the wrong

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God and the wrong Jesus. That's the most important thing we need to communicate. But why it's almost, almost harder to get to that now, dealing with a

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Mormon who is not doing the, there are saved two churches on earth, the

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Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil. We be the Church of the Lamb, and you be the Church of the Devil. That gives you a foundation upon which to say, here's truth, here's error, let's get down to it.

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And that kind of an attitude is really backing off. And again, a lot of it's just giving and capitulating to the society.

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And it's subjectivism, and it's secularism. So, anyways, that's what I heard as I listened to this.

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I heard young people that are very, very excited about their faith, but who have only heard one side of the story and have some major inaccuracies that they need to deal with, and I hope they will.

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Absolutely. So, for us, so, if you're watching this now and you're a Latter -day Saint, we want you to know that we care for you deeply, and we want you to know the truth.

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And for us, it is not the side issues, little differences in terms of whether or not you should have a beard.

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Obviously, you know where we fall on that one. I did see that show. It's not the little differences. It is the fundamental issues in terms of the

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God that we worship. Who is God? When we talk about Christ, when we talk about the Holy Spirit, we're talking about the nature of God, and when we talk about what's important for us, we're talking about the gospel itself.

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How is a person reconciled to God? And if you are from this modern context and generation, and you might think, well, these differences don't matter, and you know, it's just semantics, and the gospel is the gospel.

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Jesus is Jesus. I want to encourage you to just check out one little piece of the

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Bible, and that is the book of Galatians. It's really a letter the apostle Paul wrote, and I want you just to read that.

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It's just a few chapters, and it won't take you long to get there, but I want you to see the inspired apostle dealing with an issue in the first century, not very long after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, where you had people who were naming the name of Christ, and they had distorted the gospel itself, and it was on, really, what some people might find a very small issue.

28:27

Like, what's the big deal? It's a small issue. It's just, yeah, just circumcision. I mean, just that one part.

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And Paul says, false gospel, anathema on you, eternal condemnation, and you're under a curse, and Christ is of no benefit to you.

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And that was just a teensy little issue, some people might say, but it's enough to lose your soul over.

28:49

And so we're going to deal with this today. I want to—there's so much we'd love to do and just really work through all these.

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We want you to know that we're doing this in concern for you, and out of love for you, love for God, and love for you, demands that we care enough about you to really engage this issue.

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So I'm going to actually play a piece of the first one. It's, Do Mormons Believe They Can Be Gods? And I will just say at the beginning of this, one thing

29:12

I found interesting was, I think somewhere near the end of this video, we may not get to it, but near the end of the video, after mentioning all this, they say, but you know, we never even talk about this in church.

29:21

Like, we never talk about it. I thought it was interesting. It's like, it's almost like, this is—obviously, I can't see into your heart, so please don't take this as I'm telling you the way that it is, but I think it signifies something about the image of God in you.

29:34

Something that you know about the true nature and character of God, that you know that this isn't true, and it's blasphemous, and it's an affront to a holy

29:42

God to claim these things. Well, and it's not even consistent with Joseph Smith. I mean, let's be honest, in the King Follett funeral discourse, which, by the way, is the most commonly cited teaching of Joseph Smith outside of quote -unquote

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Scripture. So, when the general authorities of the Mormon church quote Joseph Smith, the thing they quote the most often down through history has been the

30:02

King Follett funeral discourse. So, to try to say that that's secondary or non -authoritative or something makes a mishmash out of the whole concept of modern -day revelation.

30:11

But, in the King Follett funeral discourses, he says it is the first principle of the gospel to know the character of God.

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Yes. And to know that we may converse with Him as one man conversed with. Yea, that God the Father was a man who once lived on a planet.

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This, they're right in the modern context that this is more discussed in the celestial room in the temple, which they may have not been in yet.

30:37

But, what does that tell us about Mormonism? In Christianity, God wants to be worshipped for who

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He is. He has revealed Himself so He can be worshipped in spirit and in truth. So, why wouldn't, if this is true, and Joseph Smith was right that this is the first principle of gospel, why isn't it the first principle that's being spoken of from the pulpit of the

30:54

General Conference every session? Yea. Yea, good point. Alright guys, so play through this. Just tell me to stop and I'll pause it.

31:02

So, here we go. And, we get this up here. It's this idea that we can become like our Heavenly Father.

31:08

Much like how a child is supposed to become like his father. He's supposed to grow up. We have that same potential.

31:13

We have this divine nature and divine potential. Right. But, we should probably cover what God is.

31:18

Yea, exactly. So, lots of denominations have different thoughts on what God is and what the nature of God, what that entails.

31:25

We believe that God created us in His image. Stop, stop, stop. No, they don't.

31:31

Explain that. A lot of Christian terminology here. And, I'm really a little bit stunned that they would say that.

31:39

It is very, very plain that in Orthodox LDS teaching God does not create creatio ex nihilo, out of nothing.

31:48

God cannot say, be and there is. Matter is eternal. And, a deity in Mormonism can only organize pre -existing matter.

31:58

Cannot bring matter into existence. Maybe they just don't know this. Maybe they haven't done enough reading in Joseph Smith and his cosmology to get this.

32:09

But, this is not a questionable issue. Again, go watch the dialogue I just did with Alma.

32:14

He was clear on that matter. And, he used the proper terminology that they are not using.

32:20

Because he's well aware of what the actual historical theology is. But, a lot of Mormons today, look, there are certain beliefs.

32:26

I have a whole chapter in Isamor and My Brother on the fact that God the

32:33

Father begat the body of Jesus with the Virgin Mary in a sexual act. A large number of Mormons today have no earthly concept of that.

32:43

Even though I can show you material that was published by the church 20 years ago that was meant for family home evening that presents it in great clarity.

32:53

They don't know about it today. And so, the church can change its teachings by de -emphasizing certain things.

33:01

And, maybe there's been a de -emphasis upon this. But, anybody who reads Joseph Smith knows he denied the idea that God can create anything.

33:11

So, you're using Christian terminology. And, maybe these folks interpret it in the same way. I've only listened to these three videos that you linked me to.

33:19

It's only 30 minutes worth of stuff. So, in terms of the important aspect, and Jerry and I talked about this.

33:26

We've talked about this in a few episodes. The first part of Dr. Walter Martin's book, I thought that really hit me early on as a young believer was scaling the language barrier.

33:37

Understanding that when we're dealing with different religions, cults, what have you, you may have a co -opting of terminology where they use the same terminology.

33:46

But, we have to get through that terminology and say, okay, now what do you mean? So, for example, as this opens up, I don't want to take a lot of time on this just quickly.

33:52

When you have a Mormon explaining, and this is the most popular way to explain it on the street, that God wants us to be like Him, like our

34:01

Heavenly Father. He wants us to be like Him. Wouldn't you want, doesn't the Father want His Son to be like Him?

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So, understand that that is not an appropriate way to handle this issue in terms of really properly defining it.

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Because a Christian would say, of course our Father in Heaven wants us to be like Him in terms of righteousness and holiness, to obey

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Him. But that's not really what we're talking about. What Mormonism teaches is that God was once a man who had gods before Him who progressed to become a god of this planet.

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Well, the same species. The same species. He has goddess wives, He produced us sexually in the pre -existence, and on and on.

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Now the story begins to shift. Is that what our Heavenly Father says He wants us to be like? That's the question.

34:40

Yeah, well, just even in regards to the language barrier, that's a big thing too. But just an example of if you're talking to a

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Mormon, a verse that they would give in the language barrier, 1 John chapter 3, verse 2, says,

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Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be.

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But we do know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

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Any Christian who reads, I don't know any Christian who's ever read that, and be like, oh my gosh, I'm going to become a god?

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What? Are you kidding me? But I've seen countless ones, they'll use that language to the

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Mormon, that filter that they look through in their worldview, they come to that conclusion and say, yes, we shall be like Him.

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Oh, snap, got it. We're going to be gods. It's the ontological chasm that exists between the eternal uncreated

35:32

God and anything that is created that is missing in Mormonism, because they don't have a deity in the sense of historical classical theism.

35:43

Right. When you have an exalted man, when God, men, and angels are all the same species, just at different places in the process of exaltation, that is so far removed from anything that Christians have ever, ever believed.

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It's interesting that in the second video, one of the reasons I wanted to get to that, and I don't know if we'll get to it today, but hey,

36:07

I've got a program, I could do the same thing. Yeah. I can expand upon this anytime I jolly well want to, and I can go for as long as I want.

36:14

That's right. But when they actually ended up going to Nag Hammadi and to Gnostic sources to try to substantiate, it's like, don't you realize

36:28

Gnosticism was the greatest enemy of the early Church? It is the essence of paganism, and if you're going to that, you're saying a whole lot about what your fundamental beliefs really are.

36:39

Something that's dealt with in the New Testament. Well, even presuppositionally, if a

36:45

Mormon is going to try and even use legitimate church fathers as sources to back up their points, one of the fundamental flaws even with using that, according to the

36:56

Mormon worldview, is that all those church fathers that they're quoting from us from a time when the apostasy happened.

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So why are you trying to quote for something that's authoritative when there was no authority and God took that away?

37:10

And out of context, many, many times. So here we go. Our literal, spiritual

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Father, He created us. We came to Earth through our parents, of course, but the plan of salvation, or our purpose on Earth, was designed by Him.

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He is the one that looks over us in the heavens, and we believe that He has a celestialized body,

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AKA He's a resurrected being. Yes. He's a man. He looks like us.

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He's a glorified man. So something really interesting about this idea of God being a man and us being

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His literal children, it's honestly not a new idea. It's not like the

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Mormons just invented it. This is an eternal truth. The Apostle Paul talks about this in Acts.

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We are the offspring of God, made in His image. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Alright, obviously, quoting from Acts 17 and the encounter on Mars Hill, where Paul is drawing from pagan literature to make a particular point, which is not the point that they are attempting to make here whatsoever.

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He is saying that God is not made of stone. He's not an idol. He doesn't live in your temples, etc.

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etc. But to take that and then ignore everything that Paul taught about the nature of God, about His eternality, about really

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His triune nature, which they're going to be denying anyways, because they don't understand what the Trinity is. But to isolate that and attach this and say, well, see, people have always believed this.

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Again, unless you can show me where anybody in the New Testament or any of the early church fathers would say, yes,

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God the Father was once a man who progressed to the position that He holds today, then you've got no foundation to be trying to draw any parallel to these individuals.

38:59

I mean, it's, just to be honest with you, it's dishonest. It is absolutely dishonest.

39:05

When I, for example, talk about the conflict that existed between Orson Pratt and Brigham Young, I'm going to try to read

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Orson Pratt and Brigham Young in the context in which they lived and the words that they used. I'm going to try to be honest with them.

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I do the same thing when I'm dealing with Islam. I'm going to try to be honest with what Muhammad actually did not say or what wrote or did not write or dictate or didn't dictate or whatever.

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I'm going to be honest with the Quran when I'm dealing with it. You've got to be honest with these things. And to be honest with any of the patristic sources or any of the sources of the

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Old or New Testaments, if you can't find that they shared with you this idea that God is of the same species as man, then any of the quotes you're providing are irrelevant.

39:46

Completely irrelevant. I know you've probably heard these at BYU firesides, but the fact of the matter is, not only because of the apostasy, which is relevant as well, but simply there is a massive category distinction here.

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When they say, oh, we're not the ones that made this up. I don't know of anybody in history that has had the unique combination of beliefs that Joseph Smith developed in the late 1830s.

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I just don't. That tried to hold together some type of affirmation of the

40:17

Bible and Christian theology with this idea, literally, of polytheism on a level that we can't begin to conceive of, that has led at least his followers since then to posit an eternal number of deities.

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An infinite number of deities, I should say. Together with the idea that God, men, and angels are all in the same spectrum.

40:40

Or to quote the celestial marriage manual from 1992 that specifically says, in speaking to a human being, it says, you were never created.

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You are not a created being, and you cannot be destroyed. That is, to me,

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Mormonism speaking and saying, see, you, God, men, angels, were all the same species. And the biblical teaching is, you have a potter and you got the pots.

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And there is a vast difference between the potter and what he makes. And if you don't see that, then you haven't even started at the most basic distinction of biblical teaching.

41:25

We don't have to go long on this. Just give a minute -long burst, just as a foundational... Isn't that what

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I just did? Yes. I'm saying for all of us to sort of push through this. When they talk about God being a man with a body of flesh and bones, who has a

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God before him... Notice they didn't say body of flesh and bones. They said celestialized and exalted.

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I almost asked you to stop there, because I do wonder if that doesn't reflect, again, a new modern spin.

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Because when you think about what Joseph Smith really said, that God is a body of flesh and bone, but no blood.

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Because flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. I mean, that only shows Joseph Smith's utter incapacity to do even basic exegesis.

42:09

But it doesn't... I don't know, it doesn't pop. It doesn't seem to communicate. But an exalted celestial body, well that sounds a little...

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Isn't that Doctrine and Covenants 132? Where it talks about the nature of God? The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as any man's.

42:25

So, in terms of just a comparison quickly, because we don't want to say... We're coming at this from the position of our own personal interpretations, and we love the

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Church Fathers, and they're our standard in historic Orthodox Christendom. That's our thing. We're just trying to defend that.

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But we're talking about what has God revealed in his word long before Joseph came along about himself.

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Just a quick burst. Give me... If somebody's watching this now, and maybe they're a Mormon, or they're

42:48

Christians, and they're new believers, and they're not understanding, what are we saying in terms of God's previous revelation about himself that flatly contradicts his idea?

42:56

Well, the first... The only thing that you have to start with, with Mormonism, is the reality that not only is

43:03

God eternally. Psalm 90, verse 2, the song of Moses, before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou form the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art

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God. They want to say, well, this is just about this dispensation. This is just about this earth. The Scripture never makes any statement like that at all.

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I would challenge these young men to open their minds and to read the trial of the false gods between Isaiah 40 and 48.

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Those chapters where God is going right after the false gods are some of the greatest revelation of who

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God is, because by contrasting the error with the truth, the truth is made all the brighter.

43:39

And so Isaiah 40 through 48, those chapters absolutely devastate things. But let me just give you one example of that, and that is

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Isaiah chapter 44, verse 6, Thus saith the Lord, and that's

43:51

L -O -R -D in capitals. You can look at the Bible dictionary in the this is the quad. You can look it up in here.

43:57

L -O -R -D in all capitals is Jehovah. Yahweh is a better pronunciation, but since we're talking with Mormons, we'll use

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Jehovah. Thus says Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the first and I am the last.

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Beside me, there is no God. Then verse 8, Fear ye not, neither be afraid. Have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it.

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You're even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God.

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I know not any. Now, here's the challenge I have for these young men. Here's the challenge I have for these young men.

44:27

It didn't sound to me like they're, like, I couldn't tell, but they didn't make any mention of having gone through the temple or holding the priesthood themselves other than the

44:36

Aaronic priesthood. One guy had gotten his patriarchal blessing, but I would think they would be old enough that I would think these guys would claim the

44:42

Melchizedek priesthood. I would think they at least have their endowments themselves. Maybe so, I don't know. If you go through the temple ceremonies and you observe what is taught there, even to this day,

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I can go to YouTube right now, people have gone through with the little mini cameras, you can watch the entire thing.

45:02

It's all available on YouTube. And so we know what's there. In the creation room, in the creation sequence is what they would call it now.

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It used to be in the old temples you'd go from room to room to room. You had the creation room, then you'd get up, you'd get to another room and had different things painted on the wall.

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Now you stay in the same place and they change the scenes on the wall. It's a much more efficient use of space. But anyway, in the creation room you can, and I played this just recently on The Dividing Line.

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I played the audio of this. Elohim, God the Father, commands Jehovah and Michael to go down and organize the earth.

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And as you listen, you hear three voices speaking. Elohim speaks to Jehovah, who is accompanied by Michael, and obeys the commands of Elohim to go down and organize the earth.

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Now, at the very least, even if we want to put aside other planets and other universes or however else you want to put it,

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Jehovah says, is there a God besides me? Well, in your temple ceremony,

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Elohim told him to go organize the earth. How can Jehovah then say, yea, there is no

46:13

God. I know not any. How can he say that? And then later on in the exact same chapter, verse 24, of Isaiah 44, thus saith

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Yahweh, Jehovah thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am

46:30

Jehovah that maketh all things, that stretches forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.

46:39

What happened to Michael and Elohim? You've got a choice to make. The inspired scriptures, and this book of Isaiah, if you want to try to say it's been changed or something like that, well, that's sort of tough to do in light of the

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Isaiah scroll and the Dead Sea Scrolls and Jesus' quotation of Isaiah and all the rest of this type of stuff.

46:59

The idea of an apostasy later on, they couldn't have changed this stuff because they already know what it was like even before the days of Jesus.

47:05

Here you have plain teaching that is directly against what you have in the endowment ceremonies themselves.

47:12

You've got to make a choice. The two cannot be put together. That's right. Okay, here we go. You know, when we're talking about God and creating his image, we call this our divine nature, right?

47:21

God is divine and since he's our father, we have this divine nature in us. And I love, in Peter, it says, whereby are given unto us exceedingly great and precious promises that ye may be partakers of divine nature.

47:33

Okay, now very, very important. The Mormon hears this and thinks this is true of all human beings.

47:39

You read what Peter says and he's writing to Christians. Yeah. Only to Christians. These words would not be true of unbelievers.

47:48

That's right. So whenever you have stuff about adoption of the family of God, being conformed to his image, this is specifically and only about believers in Jesus Christ.

47:59

It is not about those who remain in rebellion against God. That's right. And so to take those and generalize them to all of humanity as if this has something to do with the fact that by partaking in divine nature, that actually means we are literal offspring of one

48:15

God and his... I noticed when they got to the Heavenly Mother thing. They talk about one. They didn't talk about all of his wives.

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All of his plural wives. Because he's got a ton of them. Yes. Because if he's got billions and billions and billions of offspring, that wasn't one poor lady popping out these babies.

48:33

Let me tell you something. That was a bunch of them popping out those babies. This whole...

48:40

Technical term, popping out babies. Science. I think they'd appreciate that.

48:45

Yeah, science. But this is so far removed from the context in the

48:52

New Testament that Peter is giving here. When he's talking about our being made partakers of the divine image and the divine being, he's talking about the

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Holy Spirit dwelling within us and conforming us to the image of Christ. So that the life that he has, even as Jesus promised in John chapter 14, how does he make his abode with us?

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The Father and the Son abide with us through the presence of the Holy Spirit. We are united with Christ.

49:17

We are in union with the very Son of God. But it's not everybody who is in union with the

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Son of God. And so to generalize in this way is to grossly misrepresent the New Testament.

49:28

And I doubt very much, and I want to be respectful, and again, I don't know your hearts, and I could be wrong about this, but the majority of the time when these are passed along to Christians in defense of Joseph Smith's revelation and Brigham Young's revelation,

49:39

I find, I have found over many, many years of ministry that when you ask them, what's the context of that chapter that you're talking about?

49:46

Don't give me specifics. Just give me a general idea. What's the passage about? Not a clue. And part of that just has to do with how they're raised and how they are taught

49:55

Mormon doctrine. When I went to that Mormon school, that every single one of my friends and classmates, they would come back from their seminary across the street, and it was almost like every single period it was like, they're always walking back and forth every single period, and they would have what are called scripture mastery cards.

50:16

And so they're not taught, for example, to look at, yeah, they're not taught, for example, to read James, the whole book of James, in context, understand that it's a book, like I said, just like in Peter, it's a book written to Christians about practical sanctification.

50:29

It's not talking about, you know, how to become Christians, you know, if you come up with faith without works is dead. They're given a scripture mastery card of James 1 .5,

50:37

and they're also given one of faith without works is dead. They're given another one of 1 Corinthians, where it talks about being baptized for the dead, so forth and so on.

50:45

Let's be honest, we do the same thing as Christians. Oh, yeah. And it's wrong, wrong, wrong. Jeremiah 29 .11.

50:52

Yeah, exactly. Hashtag cringes. Oh, I can't tell you how many times

50:57

I've heard that passed around in the hospital I was at as a chaplain, and I wanted it every time I heard it. Okay, here we go.

51:04

So, Heavenly Father wants us to be like Him. I think growing up, for me, one thing that really just clicked when

51:11

I was learning this idea was our earthly fathers, right? We all have fathers. My father wants me to be like him.

51:19

He taught me to work hard in school and to, like, love my family, and he wants me to go on and to take my education and to create my own family, right?

51:27

He wants me to progress. But I will never be my father, right? He'll always be my father.

51:32

I'll always look up to him, and I'll always learn from him and admire him. One thing that they didn't seem to give consideration to here is the reality that if this is true of them, then it's also true of God, who likewise went through the same process, which means there is someone

51:49

He's always looking up to, and He's worshiping, and that He will never actually be like them.

51:56

So, I mean, that's consistent with Joseph Smith's idea of eternal progression, but as you know, you look into the general authorities of the church primarily in the 19th century.

52:06

It's sort of been settled since then, though it's still a contradiction, and there is this difference between has

52:13

Elohim reached full exaltation? Or is exaltation a process with an end, or is it just simply a never -ending process?

52:24

Because when you think about it like a train, if any part of the train stops, everything behind it's going to stop, too.

52:31

And so, I think at least toward the end, Joseph Smith had much more of the train -keeps - on -going idea.

52:41

But today, most people default to the idea that Elohim has actually received the highest exaltation he can, which doesn't make any sense.

52:50

If his offspring are becoming more exalted, wouldn't that exalt him even farther down the way?

52:55

I mean, there's just so many problems with this idea of an infinite regress and all the rest of that stuff in Mormon theology that they're starting to try to struggle with, and what's interesting is the answers they're coming up with can never be historically consistent with Joseph Smith.

53:13

And so, I just wonder how long it is. And we've already seen Brigham Young thrown under the bus just over the past couple of years on his race issues, on his statements about the blacks.

53:23

And the church has already, and this stuns me, the church has just thrown him out on that subject.

53:30

And it's like, wait a minute. The vast majority of your alleged priesthood authority that you claim amongst your general authorities today is traced back through that man you just threw under the bus.

53:41

That's right. Clearly, the genealogical idea of a priesthood authority concept is weakening itself.

53:50

And I just don't know how much redefinition over time Mormonism can handle.

53:56

Well, I think that's one of the main reasons that we see this kind of Mormonism right now in terms of the responses and just sort of this toned -down response to Christian theology.

54:06

I think it has a lot to do with the difficulties they're having now, and how do you now propagate

54:11

Mormonism, which is changing so much. How do you propagate something that's ultimately not biblical and false in this new generation?

54:19

For example, with the free access to information now, everyone has Google and you can search and easily get access to everything that we had to go purchase and dig up.

54:28

Or have only photocopies from Enstrap Your Motorcycle. Or have on the back of your back. Exactly. I mean, we used to go tell people about the seer stone.

54:37

They're like, ah, no, no, no, no. Last year they published a picture of it. It was sitting in the church historical department the whole time. Yeah, yeah.

54:43

And so the point is there's free access to information now, and these bring questions and challenges, legitimate, obviously, biblical challenges, but there's other challenges as well in terms of historical inaccuracies, hagiography, there's all kinds of really bad things you have to really work through, and so how does it propagate itself?

55:01

And I think it has to come this way. The kind of way that they're doing it. I see a lot of this outside of the temple when we do our evangelism.

55:08

These answers, this kind of defensive Mormonism. Yeah, and I think that's just something to bring up in regards to Mormonism changing and from our position of a

55:19

God who is eternal and doesn't change. In fact, a verse that comes to mind is Hebrews chapter 13 verse 8, where it says,

55:26

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And I think it's really interesting that the very next verse says,

55:33

Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings. And it goes on and on. And Dr. White, I remember one of the videos where you were out with Jeff at the temple.

55:41

You had talked about, and I'm going to just set you up because I think you'll remember it, about how is it that a

55:47

Mormon can, how can you trust a God who is always progressing and always changing versus a

55:54

God who is eternal and is the same yesterday and forever? How can you trust a God who isn't necessarily going to be consistent with who he is and what his promises are?

56:03

I remember that. That really kind of hit home for me in regards to what I believe in talking to people out there at the temple, for example.

56:10

The context of that was the very first encounter I had with LDS missionaries in 1982.

56:18

Elders Reed and Reist. We met on a Monday and a Thursday, and at the end of that Thursday meeting, I knew

56:24

I still had a lot to learn at that point in time about Mormonism. That's what started it. But what

56:29

I said to them was, Gentlemen, someday you're going to need to know a

56:35

God who does not change. Your God has changed. What you had to do to become a God has changed.

56:41

Polygamy was once required. Now it's not. He himself has changed. He has evolved. Someday this life is such that you're going to need to know a

56:50

God who does not change. My prayer is that when that time comes, that you will not only remember our conversation, but that the

56:58

Lord will place one of my fellow believers in your life to be able to continue to testify of that one true

57:06

God, because your God simply does not exist. At that time, I did not know about Jeremiah chapter 10, but let me just mention these two verses because I think it's so important.

57:21

But Jehovah is the true God. He is the living God, and an everlasting King. At his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nation shall not be able to abide his indignation.

57:30

Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens.

57:38

Now, what's fascinating, and a lot of people don't know this, is that in the original language, which in Jeremiah is primarily

57:45

Hebrew, verse 11, when it says, Thus shall ye say unto them, is in Hebrew, and then it switches to Aramaic.

57:54

And so God provides to his people in the language with which they would be speaking to the

58:01

Babylonians who are inviting them to worship these gods that are not the creators of all things.

58:07

He gives them the very apologetic words to speak in the language of the people he's witnessing to.

58:13

The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens.

58:20

The Mormon God created nothing. He only organizes. And that's not what creation means.

58:27

Jehovah creates all things. And so here Jehovah gives the very words to his people.

58:33

This is the issue. Everything else comes after this. But the reason for the confusion, the reason for the need to have a dictionary to be able to understand the differences in language and stuff like that is because right here.

58:47

Definition of who God is. And Mormonism's understanding of God is utterly contradictory to that which has been taught by all the prophets, by the

58:58

Lord Jesus Christ, by his apostles, and by the Christian Church all the way up until April 6, 1830.

59:04

And in fact, after that, because Joseph Smith didn't believe this stuff on April 6, 1830. And by the way, for the three

59:12

Mormons, he didn't claim to hold the priesthood on April 6, 1830 either. Which is a real problem, the idea of a restoration without the priesthood authority.

59:19

That's a development over time as well. That's right. That's same as our Heavenly Father. He wants so much for us and he wants us to progress.

59:26

But it's not that we're progressing to him. He's always our Father and we're just moving with him as well as we are.

59:32

Yeah. I think it's important to understand that parents don't want their children to always stay as children. Their credibility per se, or their happiness, or their glory is extended because they have created offspring that is successful.

59:44

Yes. God, he doesn't gain anything by having eternal worshipers, right?

59:50

If we're just going to worship God... This part offended me. Well, you know, look...

59:56

My little Christian heart was... Yeah, yeah. Well, you've got to understand, not only have

01:00:01

I heard this for so many years and had so many missionaries say, what are you going to do? Sit around plucking a harp all day?

01:00:06

Floating on a cloud? Type thing? Look, if you had a God who's just an exalted version of you, how could you look forward to being absorbed in his worship and praise for eternity?

01:00:16

Yeah, that's right. I mean, I say this with all respect, but Mormons just don't understand what it is to have a

01:00:23

God. And so it's fully understandable given they've completely redefined who

01:00:30

God is, it's perfectly understandable for them to say this type of stuff. But people need to understand, this is a common attitude that is expressed by Mormons and has been for a long time.

01:00:40

This is one place there hasn't been much of a change. Well, essentially, if Mormons in their worldview, if they had to worship

01:00:47

God for all eternity, it would be hell for them, just because they would be sort of forced, subjugated to worship someone who they're trying to be, so they'd be kind of stuck in a cycle of just jealousy.

01:00:59

So, that's my thoughts on it. For the rest of our lives, what is the purpose of this life?

01:01:04

To learn how to worship? Yes, but also to learn how to be like Heavenly Father.

01:01:09

In Romans 8, Paul is talking about how we can become heirs of the kingdom of God. He specifically says, and if children, you know, the

01:01:16

Spirit tells you that we are children of God, the Spirit will tell you that. And if children, then heirs. And heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.

01:01:24

And if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. There you go.

01:01:30

That's verse 17. And again, this is specifically about the elect of God.

01:01:36

It is about those who are in Christ Jesus. It is not those who are according to the flesh. The whole point at the beginning of the chapter is to contrast those who are in the flesh against those who are in the

01:01:44

Spirit, so on and so forth. And why does there need to be adoption in the first place?

01:01:51

I mean, adoption is a beautiful term that's described. If we're naturally the children of God, why use this term adoption?

01:01:58

Well, because we're not naturally the children of God. We are the creations of God. And in the

01:02:04

Old Testament, almost every time the term Father is used of God, it is in a creative context. And in that sense, he created all human beings.

01:02:11

But as far as relationship is concerned, we have to be adopted. We have to be brought into a situation that is not ours naturally.

01:02:19

By nature, we are the enemies of God. Children of wrath. Children of wrath. And obviously that means children can't be taken in a literal sense of offspring.

01:02:29

Because I don't know who Mrs. Wrath is. Do I have a wrath mommy? I mean, yeah.

01:02:34

I mean, it just doesn't make any sense at all. Well, even the prologue in John 1, it says that he came to his own.

01:02:39

His own did not receive him. But as many did receive him, he then gave them the right to become children of God.

01:02:46

So you see, there's a differentiation. The same goes with Ephesians 2. You're children of wrath. And then you become children of God.

01:02:52

I mean, it's I would like to see these if they listen to this video, is really try and give an answer.

01:02:58

How do you in your world view, what is a child of wrath according to Ephesians 2? I don't think they have an answer for that.

01:03:05

Let's recognize that the Mormon Church has never developed a consistent anthropology because it doesn't have a theology upon which to define an anthropology.

01:03:16

And then when it comes to homarcheology, doctrine of sin, wow, what a mess. What an inconsistent mess.

01:03:22

George, you have something? No? That we're going to be exactly who the Savior was, but it's saying here that we're going to be a joint heir in the kingdom of God that will be like him one day.

01:03:33

And that is so beautiful to me. And it also instills lots of purpose within me.

01:03:39

What we're worried about is we're not worried about what we worship is the fact that God gave us life. God gave us an earth. God gave us a

01:03:45

Savior. Did he say we don't worry about what we worship? I wasn't sure what that was saying, but it flows from, because I think this episode is going to end with something along the lines of it's

01:03:57

God's glory to bring about the exaltation of man. And again, the definition of God's purpose on the basis of mankind, rather than the definition of mankind on the basis of God.

01:04:07

Which just sounds like something mankind would come up with, right? Exactly. Sounds like us.

01:04:14

Right on. Redeemed. That's why we worship God. Yes. He is our creator.

01:04:20

He is who we look to for guidance. He gives us blessings. He's provided the

01:04:25

Word made flesh, Jesus Christ on earth, to teach us. We worship God because he is, there's no words, there's not enough words.

01:04:33

We are nothing without God. We are nothing without God. I'd like to give my personal opinion.

01:04:40

Does it follow that God was nothing without his God? It would have to. Right. I said, if we are nothing without God, then it follows that God was nothing without his

01:04:48

God. And his God was nothing without the God before him. And so on and so forth. That's never embraced.

01:04:54

And maybe, I'm really glad that you brought that up, because it may be the first time someone that's a Latter -day Saint who has believed these things and been attached to them has thought about that.

01:05:03

Really considered that, and how far back does this go? And is my God really worthy of the worship that I'm giving to him if he's subjugated underneath?

01:05:13

Well, if his sole purpose is just to exalt the next God that's under him, and the next God that's under him, how powerful is he?

01:05:20

Not only that, but if you follow this through again, if I become a God, then my purpose becomes the exaltation of my offspring.

01:05:30

So, now I'm wrapped up in whether they become gods on whatever planet I organize, and how

01:05:36

I set things up there, and things like that. It is... It's cliche, but there is no more man -centered religion ever designed by man than Mormonism.

01:05:49

Because you don't have a God. It has to be man -centered. Yeah, I can't remember the exact passage reference, but I know it's in Isaiah, where God says, bring my sons and daughters from afar, whom

01:05:59

I've created for my glory, whom I've created, whom I have made. It's the exact opposite.

01:06:05

God has created us for his glory. And there's a differentiation between as us as Christians, is that we understand that we are the creation, and he is the one who is the creator.

01:06:18

There's a level of difference between that, and I think they're just... Anyone who does not embrace that has a real real struggle of trying to make that differentiation between the creator and us being creation.

01:06:34

And just understand the difference between that. I mean, that's a basic concept for us as Christians, but you can just see just in hearing those videos, you see where they fall short of that.

01:06:42

It's ironic, because I immediately thought of Isaiah 29 -16, surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay.

01:06:51

For shall the work say of him that made it, he made me not? Or shall the thing frame say of him that framed it, he had no understanding?

01:06:59

It is this upside -down side. What's interesting is, that's 29 -16. What's the phraseology in 29 -14?

01:07:05

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder.

01:07:11

One of Mormon's favorite phrases that ended up being the title of LeGrand Richard's books. You know,

01:07:17

I don't know if they really read that one as much as they did before. I still got a copy falling apart. It was one of the first books that the

01:07:24

Mormon family that connected with me early on gave to me. They gave me that book. Well, you know why? Because there was a set of books you could buy in the

01:07:31

LDS bookstore to give to missionaries before they got on their mission. And marvelous work and a wonder. Marvelous work and a wonder,

01:07:37

LeGrand Richard set it up to where if I recall correctly, it had to be printed like for free. It had to be made available to anybody who wanted it or something like that.

01:07:44

So marvelous work and a wonder was one of the books along with articles of faith that were given to all the missionaries. Having talked to all those missionaries even back then,

01:07:52

I'm not sure they all did the reading they were supposed to do before going on their mission. That's true. On certain verses that talk about there not being any gods before God or after God.

01:08:04

Yes, because you know, there was a big issue in the ancient times, honestly a big issue today of people worshipping gods.

01:08:11

And you know, worshipping gods doesn't always mean like you're praying to a statue. Sometimes we worship these kind of gods, you know what

01:08:18

I mean? Like we're worshipping things and we may not say we're worshipping but we're giving enough attention and having so much faith in and looking towards man -made objects.

01:08:27

It becomes this bizarre form of modern idolatry. But... We can actually agree he knows what modern idolatry looks like.

01:08:37

Doesn't seem to recognize that the worship of an exalted man from another planet is also idolatry.

01:08:44

I believe that the verses that speak about that are pertaining to let's say, it just got really quiet in here.

01:08:53

It's been quiet the whole time. Has it? Okay, maybe it's just my voice is so loud and echoes. The verses that speak about there not being any gods before or after are true because the scriptures pertain to our world and the first dispensation to the last.

01:09:07

Okay, now immediately I have to go, and exactly where do you get that? We get it from Latter -day Revelation because we're told to believe this because it's the only way we can make this fit with the

01:09:16

Bible because the Bible says these things and we believe something different. So we try to limit it this way, but the problem is, how does that work?

01:09:24

So in Isaiah 44 when God says is there a God besides me?

01:09:29

I know not any. On the one hand, you're going to say you're always going to be worshiping your

01:09:35

Heavenly Father. But now you've got a Heavenly Father who isn't any longer worshiping

01:09:40

His Heavenly Father? When did that stop? How is that different? He doesn't know about this other

01:09:46

God in another universe or somewhere else in this galaxy? He doesn't even know. How do you make this work?

01:09:53

God says in Isaiah 44, before me there was no God formed, there shall be none after you. Are you saying there was no

01:09:58

God formed in this universe? Because remember according to the book of Abraham God lives on a planet, the circle is a star named

01:10:07

Kolob, but he only organized this. There had to be something before that for him to be able to organize it.

01:10:16

So where did that come from? There are just so many problems with this idea that we're going to limit scripture so that its denial of polytheism, a plurality of gods is only relevant to quote unquote this planet, as if that would be a category.

01:10:33

I mean Jeremiah chapter 10 the category was this world and the heavens and everything in it.

01:10:41

So now there are Mormons actually buying into multiverse theory so that you can have multiple universes and have different gods out there so you've got one god of this universe.

01:10:51

Or maybe like Elohim's dad had one of those pens like a men in black so he didn't remember at all. Yeah, haven't heard that one.

01:10:59

No. Deuteronomy 4 35 -39 God says he is

01:11:05

God alone in the heavens above and on the earth below there is no other. So when Mormons say well that's of this earth what's interesting about that is that they don't really believe that either that he's the only god of this earth because they believe there's three gods of this earth.

01:11:17

Three separate and distinct persons and beings. Three separate gods of this earth alone and then limitless number before and then coming afterwards and so it just doesn't work.

01:11:29

And I want to just say this very respectfully to you when you often see Mormons try to approach say a text like Dr.

01:11:36

White brought up Isaiah 43 10 before me there was no god formed neither shall there be after me. They'll say things like well that's speaking of idols false gods.

01:11:45

I actually have a video we just posted of somebody trying to use that as an answer. What I usually say is just try to patiently say okay let's do this that's not what

01:11:53

God is actually saying there and you can't fit that in the context of what's going on there but let's take what your interpretation is right now your attempt to answer let's place it into the text for a moment let's see if it works.

01:12:03

So if God is saying there he's referring to idols, false gods idols. Let's put it in the text before me there was no idol formed and neither shall there be any idol formed after me ask the

01:12:17

Latter -day Saint have there been any been any idols created since the time of God speaking that in Isaiah 43 10.

01:12:24

So that interpretation doesn't work. A lot of times you just have to just feed their interpretation into the text and ask them does that make any sense to you with a text or does that sound like a need to protect this modern day revelation of Joseph Smith does it fit with the text itself just just humbly and patiently ask them place that into the text and ask yourself does that actually answer the question and it really doesn't so a lot of these are just know these are practiced responses

01:12:54

Jerry mentions if you are in Arizona right now and you go to a high school out here you'll have seminary off the side of the high school and they'll go back and forth and they're learning these things they're learning responses and so a lot of times it just takes time to just work with them patiently and with grace and love and compassion work through these things with them and I want to just stress that kindness and graciousness and compassion

01:13:16

I have to say this just I want to say this briefly yesterday I don't usually read comments on our things but I happened to look at a video and I was erasing a number of comments from professing

01:13:28

Christians who were just absolutely abusive and foul with some of these Latter Day Saints on the channel and so I want to just stress that gentleness graciousness and love and I think even that has a lot to do with your theology as a

01:13:40

Christian what you believe about how a person comes to know the Lord whether it's up to you yeah and one of the things that you can do

01:13:46

I would encourage anyone who watches this if you're talking with someone who's a cultist whether they're whether they're

01:13:52

Mormon Jehovah's Witness or in fact I did this recently I was in dialogue with some

01:13:58

Witness Apostolics and I actually had them read a passage there was a verse

01:14:03

I knew that they were taking out of context I asked him if he could turn to this one passage to give the entire context then

01:14:09

I asked him to read it that's actually something that Walter Martin would do a lot is that he would actually have the cultist read it for themselves in front of them like in context and then go from there and it's just and also it's just a matter too of you know it's interesting too just being in the reformed community and being

01:14:26

Calvinist where you believe that people are spiritually dead in sin and they're just this way unless God intervenes and yet you mock sometimes the people who believe that will then go back and mock those very people who are doing what they don't really know what else to do because they're spiritually dead instead of actually just being gracious and doing what it talks about in you know giving an answer for the hope that you have with graciousness and meekness and kindness yeah how much time do we have left do you think you mean in the video no it's up to you

01:14:55

I'm saying I know you have you have a show you have a dividing line to run actually we moved the dividing line just for you oh

01:15:00

I thought you would praise the Lord but I do have an appointment okay okay well how much more time do you do you want to hang on this how much time do we have left in this particular video we want to switch over to the

01:15:10

Heavenly Mother one for a moment or stay here I think we're probably getting toward the end of where people would want to listen to an hour and a half long or yeah video basically so well let me let me ask you just a couple more questions that might be helpful okay so you're so first thing is the

01:15:32

Mormon my brother excellent resource for those of you who are believers and you're wanting to love and reach

01:15:39

Latter -day Saints is the Mormon my brother also if you are a Latter -day Saint you want to listen to the other side in terms of really engaging this and we invite you when we have resources

01:15:50

I know Dr. White does this we invite you to check the resources and go dig into what's being said well and especially this one

01:15:56

Letters to a Mormon Elder is my first book and that's written in the form of letters to a

01:16:02

Mormon missionary and so it deals with all the you know Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, False Prophecies, Temple Ceremonies all the rest of that stuff this is much more focused and what

01:16:11

I did in this was to really focus on the doctrine of God and I broke down the LDS statements into differing levels of authority and so I was exceptionally careful in trying to accurately represent what historic and it's really hard to use the term historic for a movement that only started in the 1830s but since the 1830s what historic

01:16:35

Mormonism has taught and it focuses specifically on the doctrine of God and there is an entire chapter on that idea that Elohim is the physical parent of Jesus and hence the impact that has upon the concept of virgin birth and things like that but for a

01:16:52

Mormon who specifically sorry yeah that's how you segue into the end is you start the nice cool chill out music yeah that's right for the

01:17:05

Mormon who may just want to go hey I want to find out if these guys really do do their homework

01:17:10

I would really highly recommend you take a look at it yes so if you are listening to this right now and you're just really beginning to engage this maybe you're angry with us for engaging with Mormonism and you think certain things about us because maybe you've been told things about anti -Mormons and people that do this sort of a thing want to really encourage you to to spend some time working through some of the resources either that we have at Apologia Studios on this channel that you're watching right now we have tons of conversations and lectures and messages

01:17:44

I know that Dr. White has over 30 years of ministry to Latter -day Saints and tons of resources 100 verse memory system that's right that's what

01:17:53

I wanted to point you to yes so the 100 verse memorization system for believers who want to engage this subject with Latter -day

01:17:58

Saints that's almost a book unto itself it is yeah I was going to talk to you about that actually I really think there's got to be some way to take that and make it a good resource for people on a book form or something

01:18:08

I think it would be so helpful but for Latter -day Saints who are watching this and you want to say what are the big issues and I'm ready to dig in and I'm ready to combat you and argue why don't you do that go to the 100 verse memorization system or the debates we've done a number of debates up in Utah that are available online too and dig in 100 verse memorization system just google that Alpha Omega Ministries and you can just work through because Dr.

01:18:34

White contrasts Mormon revelation belief in doctrine with the scriptures and you are invited to go and check out the resource the quotation from a

01:18:45

Mormon authority and then compare that to what the Bible says and read that in context and so oftentimes

01:18:51

I'll leave with this I saw one portion of this today where the young man suggested that when he was a

01:18:59

Protestant he says he was a Protestant before he converted to Mormonism he says that they were never told to examine these things and to test them to really examine them and he said when

01:19:11

Mormonism you know we're told to read this and test it and you know examine it. Receive the truth no matter who presents it to you take up the

01:19:17

Bible and compare the religion of the Latter -day Saints with it and see if it will stand the test. Yeah that's right so I want to suggest to you that doesn't sound like any

01:19:24

Christianity that I'm familiar with in terms of how the faith was passed to me or how

01:19:31

I communicate the truth and the faith to other people the Biblical faith is a faith that is rooted in truth, objectivity

01:19:41

I mean the claims of Scripture are to test all things and to reject prophets, false prophets that don't actually hold to consistency with previous revelation.

01:19:52

Scripture is filled and lined with texts and commands to actually test these things to actually engage and to use your mind and of course to be prayerful but not prayerful at the expense of truth.

01:20:06

One thing she said I know I'm talking a lot here but I just want to say this one thing that the girl said today just struck me she said.

01:20:11

The other girl. Yes Not this girl. No no no the Asian girl on the three Mormons she actually said this and it was on She's texting with someone right now.

01:20:20

Yeah probably She actually, get this and this would be good to kind of end on she said you know we don't want to just trust our feelings we want to trust the

01:20:29

Holy Spirit but they said well there's a way that can go wrong. She said well here's the thing. Something to the effect of if it feels good then we know that it's from the

01:20:37

Spirit of God and I thought to myself tell that to the modern millennial. If it feels good it's from God.

01:20:43

They're going that's how I'm living baby it feels good so I believe God's with it like God's behind this.

01:20:49

I mean that is just one of the most amazing statements. If it feels good it must be from God Well if you've been using

01:20:56

Moroni 10 4 and 5 for all these years and doing the testimony type thing there's an element of subjectivism that is in the very bloodstream of Mormonism that is killing it.

01:21:06

Yes It is absolutely now that the society has changed into its subjective form that is a poison in the bloodstream of Mormonism that will fundamentally change the very character of Mormonism eventually and I think it will result in a major split eventually.

01:21:21

That's right. Lots of things that might feel good to you They are not holy, good, righteous in God's eyes and I want to encourage anybody listening to this again who is

01:21:32

Latter -day Saint to know that we have genuine love and concern for you. We do not want to see you hurt and destroyed. We want to see you know the true and living

01:21:38

God We don't want you to lose faith. We want you to come to faith in the true and living Jesus the real

01:21:43

Christ and experience peace and forgiveness and salvation in Him That is our ultimate goal here in terms of pointing you to these things

01:21:50

So I encourage you to do that I encourage you to look through the history of Dr. White's ministry Apologia Studios There's tons to work with.

01:21:57

Contact us if you have questions And again to the Three Mormons You don't always hear that from Dr. White that he's going to send you books

01:22:04

We've done that a lot I know, but you don't always He's busy in ministry a lot A lot of people are tweeting him and making comments and they're online and doing things

01:22:13

Slandering me generally But to have him offer you these I think is a huge blessing

01:22:20

And I would encourage you to check it out Test it. To examine the things that we've said today And I invite you to come on our show and discuss these things

01:22:28

We would definitely invite you We'd love to be on your show and have this discussion with you So that's it Except their show is a little bit shorter than yours

01:22:35

And much tighter space We have lots of room here No samurai swords

01:22:41

Some decorating to do too as well Alright, Joy the Girl See you guys Thank you all for watching

01:22:48

Go to apologiastudios .com to get more content Sign up for All Access Thank you to our All Access partners for making this possible

01:22:54

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01:23:00

Go check it out Nostradamus, Jeremiah Roberts Do you want to give me an announcement? You say no?

01:23:07

I know we're live but I want to say no We'll hold it We'll hold it Sorry guys

01:23:15

Dr. James White, thank you sir for joining us today Great to be with you Check out the dividing line later today

01:23:21

Maybe talk a little bit tomorrow So are you going to touch these? Do you think some of these? Alphanomegaministries .org