October 26, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Opening Banter and Technical Setup

Well, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. We're actually working today. It hasn't started rainings of phone lines.

And.

My my system is still a little goofy, but it's a whole lot better than it was last week. Because after it's sort of like just refused to work by the way, I I'm starting to believe all the conspiracy theories.

Did you know that if you have front page? Operational and I know you're never supposed to have front page operational. I you purists out there every time you hear me say we have real blogging software coming.

So just you know, please don't get on me about that. But if you have front page running it kills Mozilla. Did you know that? I'm wonder if I'm the only person that does that too. But when you have have front page up Mozilla will not function properly will not display everything on the screen only internet Explorer.

I think I sense a conspiracy Involved there personally. I really think it and anyways What was I saying, oh, yeah the the system seems to be working and we have sound and I can play clips and we can take phone calls and It is going to rain however on Thursday, which may mean Repeat of what happened last time.

I don't know and then I'll be in Peoria, Illinois over the weekend. Does anyone know what it's supposed to be like in Peoria, Illinois? I was gonna do that and then we had some server problems and then and then Pete the Canadian who always has the best ideas came to our rescue and he came to our rescue because The irrational lady from Canada got hold of him and And that was that's why reason we're here today folks.

Everyone stand up and give irrational. Oh Man, that scared me. I thought you're right behind me.

So do you think do you think everybody in Canada knows each other. I think that all the Christians do.

They have each other on speed dial man, you know, they're passing it along against us, you know that kind of thing. So anyway, that's why we're here and That sound like you were right behind me. That is so odd.

It's the headset that a wonderful sound board. Oh, it's it's great a stereo. Sound off. Okay. Thanks a lot Kev. We appreciate that. That's really good. Anyway, what in the world are we doing today? We're sort of catching up with last week.

I have some clips to play but we also have eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and. But I'm not gonna get to that and you know immediately. So everybody in channels just now realizing I still had my sounds on but that's okay.

Yeah, it would be very easy for me to slip into a discussion That would only be relevant to citizens the United States and various sundry illegal people in the United States who get to vote anyways, but I you know as.

As.

Very tempting as that is. I just I need to somehow try to fight that off and I've mentioned on the.

Blog.

Sort of what I feel about the whole situation. I think the sadly the choice is between Keeping some semblance of breaks on the Social decline and the the falling off the cliff into becoming Europe and the Just simply being catapulted off the edge instantly boom and I will say one thing the Announcement yesterday of the fact that the Chief Justice of Supreme Court has thyroid cancer.

Which means he could be there much longer, you know, we're looking Minimum one I think as many as four Supreme Court justices over the next four years. There's some some of them just been hanging on just for the sake of hanging on and so yeah to me the difference between keeping the brakes on and just going right over the edge and.

So that's sort of that's that's just sort of how I view the whole thing and it's it's very very disturbing because I look down the road at my kids and my Grandchildren and just go. Oh, man on Unbelievable and of course the amount of hypocrisy and lying and You know, there's there's just you gotta admit from a from a Christian perspective someone who can lie without twitching.

Who can lie? Repeatedly over and over and over and over and over again. Just that that's that's not the kind of person you want in charge, you know, it's just I Realize politics in general tends toward dishonesty and less than forthright speaking, but you know, I Just I still know anyway I have much stronger feelings on this than I'm letting go and and if you want to know them you can come into channel.

And watch as we as We make it very clearly known where we and where we stand. But yeah, nabal is a is an Old Testament character that comes to mind and what that means in Hebrew. But anyway, no, we're not going there today.

I'm gonna I'm gonna pull the plug on that one and Move forward from there though I must confess the other thing that just is driving me nuts is the the Why can't from my perspective? I think we should just have CBS and NBC and ABC.

Why don't they just register as the political organizations? They are so that they can be regulated. Isn't wouldn't that be fair? I think that would be fair. You know if it wasn't for alternate media like this you're listening to alternate media.

You're listening to media that exists that didn't exist 15 years ago and if it wasn't for blogs and alternate media. Who knows what situation we'd be we'd be in right now. I I just I. Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and say it look when a society Does not value truth.

This is what happens When a society has and it's part of the worldview it's part of the postmodern worldview where truth is no longer an objective thing and A person who speaks the truth even to their own detriment member the book of Proverbs that person is no longer honored and God will not honor a nation that does not honor truth and our nation was based upon the idea of mutual responsibility to one another and honoring truth and so folks once that's gone, it's gone and That's what I mean about the the downhill slide it is it there's no way to stop it.

Outside of of God absolutely being merciless nation and granting repentance in the form of repentance from sin and a an acknowledgement of God's righteousness and holiness and everything else and if you When you look around and you see people lying and people just.

You know, they just that's not the attitude of the psalmist the psalm 119. He says my eyes Shed streams of water over those people who do not keep your law it should bother us when we see people who just wink at God's law wink at God's truth and Who does that anymore nobody does that anymore.

That's just that that's considered to be. Not only politically incorrect, but you you cannot Build a megachurch today on that basis and everybody knows it. Everybody knows it. I mean, they're just there are only a few really large churches left in this land.

Where you can actually continue to speak the truth and that's because they grew slowly not overnight. I don't know of a single church that has become a megachurch in five years. Where you could actually preach the holiness of God and preach a hatred of sin in that pulpit and not empty the place out.

Because it takes time for people to get that Anticultural idea. That God is holy. Sin is reprehensible. We should hate our sin. We should love God's holiness. We should love truth. See that that takes time.

You don't do that overnight. And in our society today, man, it just it just doesn't it's not happening and everybody's gonna say you sound like that. You so you talk like that and and you're gonna you're not gonna impact our society.

Well, our society needs a prophetic voice our society needs a voice that says look you're on your way to judgment. You are on your way to meet a holy God who is going to punish your sin. That isn't said anymore.

That's considered to be. And what what's it considered to be it's considered to people don't hear that anymore they don't hear that. Well who makes ears to hear? It's not us. I said I wasn't gonna do that, didn't I?

The people in the channel are are saying I'm supposed to I'm supposed to be doing this and I just takes deep breath and Let's let's listen to some cuts here. I was I mentioned this one on the blog. Back on the 8th of October there was Seemingly a concerted effort for Roman Catholics to call into the Bible Answer Man broadcast and I mentioned a mic from Covina who called in and What he said was most interesting now, of course when I press this button the entire The system may explode but we're gonna we're gonna do our best.

Let's let's listen to this call from Mike in Covina back to the phone lines.

I want to go to Mike in West Covina, California. You're hunting with dr. Paul Meyer. Hi. Good afternoon.

I do have a question about justification. As a Catholic Christian who loves Christ who loves others tries to be faithful to the Ten Commandments. Tries to do the little things that please God. When I meet other Protestant ministers and we talk about justification.

Especially when the issues about once justified always justified that comes up quite a bit. I have but just five little concerns. I have let's say his name is John Doe now. Let's stop it right there.

This is this is what rush and Sean and others call a seminar caller. This is a person who has their their comments pre-written. This is a Roman Catholic apologist a lay apologist. Who is seeking to use this national platform to present his argumentation.

And it is interesting to hear the phraseology once justified always justified that at least I appreciate that language. Because it gets a little bit more focused than once saved always saved. Because just for Kate does it allows or should allow.

Unfortunately in this call it doesn't but we will insert that is this in there it should allow a discussion of what justification is. It should allow us to go to Romans 5 1 therefore having been justified We have peace with God discuss the nature of that peace and the fact that if that peace Can be destroyed by my actions and it is not true Shalom It's not Shalom that is created by the perfect work of Christ.

We should be able to go to Romans chapter 8 and discuss the fact that if you believe that salvation is the work of God then That golden chain of redemption which includes justification all those who are justified are glorified.

That should follow. That should allow us to discuss those things to discuss the nature of justification and with a Roman Catholic it should allow us to expose The unbiblical doctrine of justification that is there is the fact that they desire to have a doctrine of justification that is confused with sanctification and that in essence is a doctrine that that makes the gospel Anthropocentric it is focused upon man man's accomplishments.

Man's Faithfulness to doing certain things. That's what this should allow. It doesn't end up unfortunately going that direction, but hey, that's why we have a webcast.

You stop praying on Sunday. He doesn't go to church anymore. He loves football. He watched the football games.

Well right there anyone who loves football. No no that's the member. Mike from Covina here is describing a person who has a said faith a person who has Possibly a walk down an aisle and and shaken a pastor's hand and as a result has been told hey You know you pray this prayer.

Your ticket is punched. You're on your way. That's the description.

It's being given here and after the games he goes on his computer. He doesn't have time for God anymore on Sunday.

He says that's works. I'm not going to be associated with works. Well, so now we have a person who? Yeah, yes, so much else's that sounds like your average nominal Catholic isn't it as that's exactly right so here we have further description that this is a person who does not understand the gospel.

A Person is asked to understand the relationship of grace and faith. What are good works over against legalism. These are descriptions that are being given so far? I don't think that Mike from Covina knows that he's giving us these clues, but anyway.

I'm already been saved. Funny. Faith in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. I don't need to worship on Sunday. No more. Okay, that's number one.

So number one is this person does not understand the Lordship of Christ does not understand the relationship of grace and faith and works and so on and so forth and so obviously this would not be a person that any of us would wish to put forward as.

Being the example of once justified what's justified. Number two his prayer life is non-existent.

You'll pray when there's financial emergency or when there's the health emergency. Other than that he doesn't worship. He doesn't offer. Thanks. There's no praise or adoration in his life.

Okay, that's number two. Obviously therefore there's no presence of the Holy Spirit. We wouldn't have any concern here about the church and the fellowship the Saints obedience to Christ. We are discussing here the the classic example of the said faith person and Obviously therefore none of us believe that an empty faith justifies and Discussed that.

How long have we been saying this now of. From. Well anyway. Number two. Number three.

He refuses to forgive others. There's several people in his life. He absolutely refuses to forgive and he has malice in his heart towards those people. I think there's something new testament about that too.

Okay, and number four he's living in adultery. On the side he has a carnal relationship with her and the same time all these things are going in his life. He thinks back to five years ago that when his pastor said you believe Jesus is first Lord and Savior and he rose his hand.

Yes, I do. So he's thinking at the time home. I'm saved. I've already been saved.

So here you have a classic representation of from a Roman Catholic of the very kind of Non Lordship salvation. Interesting next April 22nd I will be debating a proponent of non Lordship salvation a person who would.

It would be interesting to hear him respond to this because in essence he is presenting the idea here of a person who had faith at one point, but it was it did not abide and We're gonna be debating that April 22nd in Oklahoma City.

In fact that General area April 22nd the next year. I think it's April 22nd that's that's a Couple debates down the road and numerous trips. And so the dates don't really gel in my mind till I get a little bit a little bit closer here.

But there's there's the straw man set up. Okay We continue.

Number five. Yeah, I have to start answering these. First of all as a Lutheran I don't agree once once justified always justified not at all a person can fall away from faith.

And it certainly looks like this fellow's falling away from faith. Well, there you go. So much for Paul Myers being consistent and in his response and now we could discuss Paul Myers view of a justification and.

Romans 8 and Romans 5 and so on so forth and please understand that Luther had nothing against good works. Whatever he put it this way good works don't make a man good. But a good man one who was justified by faith does good works.

He agrees with James faith without works is dead. And so there's nothing against good works here at all. And this fellow you're describing is perfectly disgusting. I mean, and I wouldn't consider him a true Christian at all.

Okay, but add a step that remember.

He's been thinking that he's been justified. Okay, so he's been thinking that he's been justified upon what basis. Certainly not the preaching that you would hear in my church. I Mean, I can't speak too much for what's preached elsewhere because generally I'm either at the Phoenix Perform Baptist Church if I'm in town that's where I am unless I'm I'm lying on the side of the bed getting ready to die and When I'm not there, I'm someplace else, but I'm not someplace else listening to somebody else preach.

Which I would like to do but that's not what God's plan for me is right now if I'm someplace else I'm the one doing the preaching there, too. And So I don't get to hear a lot, but I know one thing when I hear preaching my church.

This person would be repeatedly. Regularly. Well, first of all, he'd be put out of the church that this person adultery. Somebody on the side like that if that was known in any way shape or form. And beyond that if he doesn't go to church on Sunday, he's not a member of our church we purge the rolls each year and If someone does not attend the church, we contact them and they basically, you know, they can tell us well, you know what?

I'm not interested anymore. And so they're not gonna be a member of the church you cannot shepherd a flock when the flock doesn't show up see and. So unlike some churches where you have you know 20 ,000 members, but you can only find 7 ,000 of them at any given time and and The rest of them you don't even know where they are anymore.

That's just you know, it doesn't work that way. We we can't possibly allow that kind of situation to go on. So we've had a complete straw man presented. There is no connection between anything that I would ever preach but here is where we get this.

Incredible.

Incredible statement that if this guy is if Mike from Covina Is sort of like a lay Catholic apologist then he hasn't been listening real well To the debates that he's supposed to be listening to. If he's listening in my debates, he hasn't listened real well.

Maybe he's sort of like that guy who became Roman Catholic he was on staff with a ministry in California and he became Roman Catholic and he attended the debate with with Tim Staples in Fullerton, California.

And every time Tim would talk he'd come in and listen. As soon as I'd talk he'd leave and at the end of the night Proclaim Tim the victor. Maybe maybe he has these special edited versions of the debates where only the other guy gets to talk and All I get is to answer questions during cross-examination.

Don't get to ask any of them or anything like that. Maybe that's what's going on. I don't know but listen to what Mike from Covina says.

He's heard people like James White of Alpha Omega ministry teacher. He's heard Jimmy Swaggart. He's heard several other popular ministers say that once you're justified you always have that piece of Christ with you.

Ah.

Like I said on the blog it is truly amazing to be associated especially Associated in a completely absurd fashion with Jimmy Swaggart. I sure I assure you Mike. Yo Mike and Covina I hope you know, we know that there are Roman Catholic apologists who listen to.

Listen to this program and I bet you there's a Roman Catholic apologists out there who knows. Who Mike from Covina is and.

So.

Somebody get him to listen to this. Okay, Mike Let me tell you something the person you described if if you had ever taken the time to read the God who justifies if You'd ever taken the time to listen to my sermons on James to that are posted at PR BC org.

Oh, by the way, I did a Sunday school lesson on the five solos Sunday morning PR BC org you might find interesting given Reformation Sunday's coming. Mike if you had ever taken the time to actually listen To what was said In any of the debates on justification Where I've discussed the issue or on Predestination election anything like if you'd taken the time to read almost anything I've written you would know that the accuracy of your statement aside the fact that Jimmy Swaggart doesn't teach anything even remotely like that and That you're grossly Misrepresenting what I believe justification is and so on and so forth.

And if that is as bad as if I were to say in a debate where I am Presenting the Roman Catholic perspective that Roman Catholics worship the Pope as a deity. Okay, that is is bad a misrepresentation Mike.

You just need to just need to understand that and you're never gonna get anywhere as an apologist lay apologist or otherwise. Until unless you want to do it. Like like the left does it? Politically in our in our land where the truth of what somebody else believes is irrelevant.

If you want to follow that perspective, then you're on the right road. You're and in fact, you have a lot of people that you're following who do the same thing. There's no question about that but if you actually want to make a Connection if you want to show some respect Then you have to accurately represent what the other side saying I?

Didn't say you have to agree with what the other side saying that's where the air always comes into people. Oh you James White. He misrepresents Roman Catholics and you go. Well, where is he misrepresent Roman Catholics?

Well He says that the concept of the papacy isn't true. Because historically This happened and that happens like well, wait a minute. That's not misrepresenting. That's disagreeing with see they constantly just flip-flop back and forth.

Oh flip-flop. Waffle of change your mind. Oh, man. I can't get out of my mind. They They they just keep going back and forth between these two different these two different definitions. Misrepresent and disagree with are not the same thing.

Okay, so Mike if you want to have an impact you have got to show some integrity and accurate representing the people you're talking about. And let me tell you something on national radio. You didn't. That was bad, and I will accept your your apology anytime.

You'd like to offer it and that you can never lose that peace never lose that justification. Thus you will be saved. And so he thinks of back his mind at the hour of his death. Crucial point I have here.

He refuses to repent. Refuses because he thinks back deep down. I'm already safe. I don't you know. Come on. God is love. Sure I'm living adultery, but he loves me. He loves his her Mike. Are you a Roman Catholic?

Yes, I am.

Let's cut to the quick real quick here. Just because in the interest of time I want to get to the bottom line here your questions very clear, but dr. Meyer it's certainly possible that the person that is being described here who has been described as never really repented.

You might have a said faith rather than a real faith.

And I appreciated at least at that point that Hank Hank said what I would have said that we're talking about a person did not have a real faith here and they went on from there, but I want to play that one because Yes, yes except deity is spelled that way anyway.

Romans 9, Predestination, and Compatibilist Freedom

That was on the 8th, and so I'm going to go ahead and close that one. That's what I was gonna play last week that one and and and this next one. The next one is a lengthy discussion and actually It's 1126 so we need to take a take a break coming up here in a couple minutes.

The next section is a lengthy discussion and we have a person who calls in and asks about again Romans chapter 9 and predestination and the reason I want to address this is because it is being said and You know maybe not directly by name, but it's it's being said that it is a biblical error.

There are a couple biblical errors and when people say that my what I teach what I've published Involves biblical error. I want to take the time the opportunity to respond To that assertion it is being said that is a biblical error to believe in compatibilist freedom.

To be a compatibilist that the only form of meaningful human freedom is libertarian freedom, and I do not believe that libertarianism Is in any way shape or form consistent with the sovereignty of God and consistent with the sinfulness of man and man's creatureliness and so I want to respond to that and also that to read Romans chapter 9 as Involving God's.

Free.

Exercise of his kingly authority is To engage in eisegesis, it's unbiblical and it's ignoring the key of the Old Testament. I think the Old Testament is key. But if you look back not at Jeremiah 18 that's not the background of Romans 9 the background woman's eyes X is 33 and the free and sovereign demonstration of grace to Moses in God's self-revelation to him.

That's the quotation. I mean if you want to go back and get the quotations that's where the quotations are from and So that is key. But in essence, it's being said that John Piper or myself or John Calvin or BB Warfield or the list goes on and on on that all of us have been guilty of eisegetical misinterpretation of the text in Romans chapter 9 and I believe that when that particular Subject came up on the Bible answered broadcast when I had the opportunity of responding certainly George Bryson was not able to make the point and Was not able to in any way shape or form respond to the exegesis the text.

So we'll be looking at that when we come back. We're gonna take our break and then also take your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We'll be right back.

You know. Yeah, man, you bet your grace. Some religious place by weeping hard on your face. At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself.

It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified. But about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ. What's a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers.

The doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of reformed? evangelicalism itself. Join Alpha and Omega ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue.

Justification the heart of the gospel. With pastor and co-author of Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith David King the president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Founders Conference Tom Askell New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of evangelical answers Eric Svensson.

The founder of the Spurgeon Archive and executive director of grace to you Philip Johnson Nationally renowned Reformed Christian artist Steve camp and the founder of Alpha Omega ministries and author. Dr. James White.

Join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton ballroom on November 6 2004 beginning at 845 a .m. Seating is limited. So order your tickets now at a omen org. That's www .aomin .org.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomin .org.

Convictions once held and died for among Bible-believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent Auburn Avenue movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the reformed scholars who opposed them in error? Does Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the new covenant our Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5th 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between dr James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue movement and new st Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at a omin org. That's www .aomin .org. Come back to the dividing line.

We are discussing what we're discussing a little bit of everything today and we also have a special announcement that needs to be made and so. This is where you go get something out of the refrigerator or do whatever you need to do and that's it.

That's okay. They go get some out of fridge because I'll just turn the sound up. Okay? Yeah that that'll do a lot.

Yeah, so sort of like commercials. Yeah, they always turn the sound on so you can hear in the kitchen.

Anyway, just a quick word for those of you who will be coming to the conference and debate. Yeah, it's very funny you. Anyway just a word of advice there if you're flying into LAX. Remember that the Sheraton has shuttles running every 15 minutes 15 minutes 15 minutes 24 hours a day.

24 hours a day.

Back to this anyway, and this time uninterrupted folks. I have the floor Anyway, so I keep keep that in mind every 15 minutes it look for the Sheraton LAX shuttle and they'll get you right over there and quickly it.

Like I said, they run very quickly and we'll let dr. Dr. What's-his-name. White. Yes come back in 24 hours.

15 minutes Sheraton LAX.

Back to something interesting.

Well, you know that's all dependent on LA still being there when we get there because depending on the outcome of the debate of. You know I've got admit the voter intimidation stuff and the violence and people shooting up only one sides offices.

Definitely let me tell you something. So all of you Union thugs that want to try to intimidate me and my voting me and dr. Glock are waiting for you. Don't even try it ain't gonna work. Anyway, yes, dr. Glock one of my favorite folks.

Anyhow, what were we talking about? Oh, okay. Yeah, somebody's posting really bad stuff colors and channel. It's really then again a bat on a green background. It's not too bad. Anyhow. Eight seven seven seven five three three four one.

Predestination, Divine Foreknowledge, and Romans 9

But you know you'd worry about that because I've got a fair amount of stuff to do here as I mentioned this is. This was the 15th of October. So this was 11 days ago. There was a question on the subject of the will of man and I didn't get a chance to queue this up.

Oh. Well, let's just hope that this is queued up correctly. Anyways, if not, we can just do it on the air. It was not genuine. Yeah, that isn't so we'll go to right there.

Mike my question has to do with Predestination and if you'll let me get all this out kind of complicated. So the first thing I guess the question the main question is how much of our life is predestined?

How much do we choose is all. Do we choose all of everything and nothing is predestined? As part of our life predestined and part we make you know, some of our choices. Or. Is everything predestined and we make no choices.

Look Jimmy first I think it's really important before you go on that you define what you mean by predestination because the Bible very clearly Teaches predestination and the subset so all Christians believe in predestination.

It's a biblical teaching. No Christian denies that God predestines. What the debate is in Christian circles is the basis on which God predestined. Some say it is according to his purpose. His predilection it is his providence.

That predestines us so he just does it for his own good pleasure. There are other people say no, that's wrong. God Predestines according to his foreknowledge. He looks down the corridor of time he sees what we will do and he chooses on that basis.

So and by the way, there are other opinions as well within the Christian tale of orthodoxy, but all Christians then believe in predestination. It it's the basis on which we are Predestined that is the subject of debate.

I.

Guess I referred to Romans chapter 9 where Paul is is talking about Jacob and Esau and how before they were ever born. That God had decided that Jacob he would bless and Esau he would not bless and he Goes on to say that, you know, God will have mercy on who will have mercy and compassion who will have compassion.

And then he also speaks of Pharaoh saying that he will harden who he will harden now before Jacob and Esau were ever born. They didn't do anything to deserve blessings or or non blessings that for lack of better term.

But yet, you know, that is what played out. In fact Jacob turned out to be kind of a scoundrel in the beginning. If you in their other passages I think Proverbs 16 for says that God has created everything for his for its own purpose even even The wicked for the day of evil.

I guess what I'm really saying is that if God knows if we believe that God is omniscient knows everything and he knows what we will Do can we have we cannot surprise him? I mean we cannot do anything in our lives other than what he already knows that we will do so if he knows.

Now let me stop right there before the the explanation begins. Classical questions. These are classical issues that theologians have wrestled with for time immemorial. I remember taking a class a graduate class on The Renaissance and reading Lorenzo Vala's work on this and It was it was fascinating to read the this is this is pre-reformation and so on so forth.

Nothing. This isn't new. But what is new in the modern? Sense is a willingness to come up with all sorts of new theories, and maybe it's not so much willingness, but just simply The fact that we don't really know a lot about what previous generations have said and so we come up with new stuff not realizing.

Oh, you know what previous generations already went over this and this theory I'm coming up with has already been debunked, and I just don't know it, so I'm you know reinventing the wheel basically and Especially the issue concerning God's knowledge and The real issue here is will we approach Christian theology From a human perspective or from a divine perspective now some people would say we can only approach it From a human perspective because that's who we are we have to be always the ones looking up but our perspective is always that limited one of the human being.