Saving Faith and the Sovereignty of God

First Peter 3 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give

An account for the hope that is in you yet with gentleness and reverence Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast

The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us

Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the

Phoenix Reformed to Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr. White, you can call now by dialing five zero eight zero nine sixty

That's five zero eight zero nine sixty and now with today's topic. Here's James white

And welcome to the dividing line today. My name is James white Good to be with you on a beautiful and I do believe a warming

Saturday afternoon I think we're gonna see those triple digits in the not -too -distant future and that's just the way things are here in Phoenix, Arizona Today, I would like to hopefully challenge you just a little bit in regards to how it is

We present the gospel and specifically. Have you ever given some consideration to what it means to have faith?

What is faith you hear the word all the time? Everybody talks about faith.

You need to have faith. You need to believe. Well, what is saving faith? That's we're gonna be looking at today.

Also, we have a couple of other things going on We are on the internet at the moment

You can instant message me at ortho poe deo on AOL if you happen to have access to that if you have some questions we did hook up the computer again this week and We definitely have some new things on the horizon

Over the next few weeks as some of you know Those of you who possibly listen regularly or those of you who have access to the internet website

It had been keeping an eye on the schedule Beginning next week. Well, at least here on the program beginning next week

I'm gonna be out of town and then for three weeks I'm going to be on Long Island doing a number of things speaking at ten different churches

Doing three different debates one on Roman Catholicism one on the subject of the deity of Christ against a

Muslim Apologist which will be a first for us We're looking forward to that with some level of trepidation

But then we right afterwards have a debate against a oneness Pentecostal scholar on the subject of the

Trinity this last Friday. I did a two -hour Call -in discussion radio show debate slash argument, whatever you want to call it on WMC a radio on Long Island, actually,

I think it's in New Jersey, but it covers all of the New York metropolitan area with dr.

David Bernard who is the leading scholar for the United Pentecostal Church? And the topic of that debate was is tongues the initial

Sign or evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it was very interesting

We finally got it all boiled down to dr Bernard's insistence that since I do not speak in tongues and have not spoken in tongues.

That means I am NOT justified I am NOT in Christ and That was it took us about two hours to get to that point

It took a lot of digging a lot of specific questions But we finally got there, but I have a number of things coming up on Long Island so since I'm going to be there the question is who is going to be here and Actually, we are right now lining up those programs going to have a number of our folks in the program will be hosted by a none other than Rich Pierce the president of the ministry and I hope that you will support he and the others that are going to be coming in Primarily discussing the subject of Mormonism while I'm off doing all these other things

Might be able to sneak in a phone call sometime while I'm gone to give you a report on The debates as they're taking place and things like that But the programs for the next few weeks will be centering on the subject of Mormonism And I hope you will support

These gentlemen as they present this information to you by your calls and your prayers Those of you who listen by the internet, and I know there are a number of you who do that please make note of the fact that we live in Phoenix, Arizona and Arizona is a is a strange state.

It's a wonderful state. It's a beautiful state but we're sort of individualistic here and We aren't into daylight savings time.

We tried it once I remember it is back in the 70s sometime and What was really strange about it was that During the summer we would be trying to go to bed at 10 o 'clock at night

And it was still bright outside in a hundred and three degrees and there's just something unnatural about trying to go to sleep

When it's bright outside in a hundred and three degrees so the state as a whole said forget that and All of that to say that we are now for the next six months five and a half months however long it is

We're now on Pacific time We like to say hey, we just don't play with our clocks

We leave them where they're supposed to be but we're on Pacific time and then we go to mountain time They go back to Pacific time and yada yada yada yada so on so forth so if you are thinking

I had a gentleman in IRC. Just recently tell me you know if you had announced

On the website that last week you're going to do open phones that people could just call in and ask questions

I'll bet you would have had a lot of long -distance callers calling in to ask questions Because they want to have that opportunity, but you didn't tell us what your programs were going to be about well

That's probably a valid criticism and a valid suggestion So I'm letting those of you who do listen by the internet know that over the next number of weeks

From 1 p .m.. To 2 p .m.. Pacific Standard Time, which would be four to five I believe on the

East Coast Since there's a three -hour difference We will be discussing the subject of Mormonism and your calls would be welcome at one triple eight talk nine sixty one triple eight

Talk nine sixty here locally though five oh eight zero nine sixty five zero eight zero nine

Sixty is the local number now. I mentioned what we want to talk about today, and it's an important subject

It's an important subject not because I think it is but because it impacts The very way in which we preach the gospel the very way in which we proclaim

Christ's truth it has an impact upon the subject of of The means by which we share the gospel with someone else and what we're asking them to do

What what are we asking people to do? When we ask when we not even ask that's even a more fundamental question

What are we doing when we present the gospel to people? What does the gospel demand of folks is it merely an invitation to believe

What does it mean to believe? What is faith? The reason I thought of this subject today was

I remember a a statement made by R. C. Sproul And it's a statement that it caught me and therefore

I would imagine it's going to catch a lot of folks But it really highlighted what

I thought was a vital truth R. C. Sproul said and I'm Paraphrasing, but hopefully

I'm going to get it fairly close I like to be somewhat accurate and quoting somebody else because I don't like being misquoted myself though that happens all the time

R. C. Sproul said the question is not What will you do with Christ?

The question is what will Christ do with you the question is not what will you do with Christ?

The question is what will Christ do with you? You see that statement.

I think very biblically and accurately Exposes one of the most fundamental problems

That we have in the common presentation of the gospel in our land today And that is we present it in the context that well

God's done the best he can do He's really put forth a quite an effort quite an effort indeed

But he's at the end of his rope he's He's done everything you can do it.

He can do no more than what he's done and So now it's all up to you now it's it's up to the creature and the success or failure of God's entire plan

Is dependent upon what you the creature do?

That is the fundamental perspective that is being presented most commonly in our land today

I'd like to suggest you that's not a biblical Presentation. Oh, yes.

Paul does say we beg you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God We are ambassadors with the message of reconciliation

Yes But that has to be balanced along with the fact that the scripture says that God commands men everywhere to repent

God is never presented in Scripture as an impotent sovereign. In fact, those two words obviously can't go together

Just sort of sitting back and and hoping that people will take him up on his offer he is presented as the mighty

God who has in Jesus Christ brought about redemption and The question that is placed to people is yes

Who is Jesus Christ Jesus asked his disciples that he wanted to find out from them if they understood who he was

But the question really is as R .C. Sproul put it. It is not what will you do with Christ?

See Christ is going to return Christ will rule and reign. There is no question of any of that The question is what is going to be your relationship to him?

What will he do with you? You see it is not as if Christ is coming to us and hoping for us to do something for him

Instead The real presentation of the scriptures is that it is up to us

To seek mercy to seek forgiveness from him He's the master.

He's the Lord We are the ones in need of him. He's not in need of us we wonder sometimes why the message of The gospel in our land falls on so many deaf ears and has so little power to it

Maybe it has to do with the fact that we are telling the lost. Well God doesn't really have any power or control

God's doing the best he can but generally he sort of fails And this is seen when we look at what the

New Testament says about what faith really is. What is saving faith? Is saving faith something that everybody can do?

Everybody everybody has the ability to have saving faith. Everybody has the capacity within themselves to believe to believe

Firmly enough to grasp salvation and it's just well, some people will some people won't we're not exactly sure

Why is is that really what the Bible teaches about faith? If you have your scriptures available to you,

I'd invite you to turn to Ephesians chapter 2 Yes, Ephesians chapter 2 that classic passage dealing with the issue of salvation and in Ephesians chapter 2 after Paul talks about the deadness of man and sin and The mercy of God and making us alive together in Christ.

We have the classic passage Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 through 10 and There we read for by grace.

You have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves It is the gift of God not as a result of works so that no one may boast

For we are his workmanship Created in Christ Jesus for good works, which

God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them Now we could spend the entire hour just unpacking a few of the phrases in that particular

Section of verses. It's it's an incredible statement a tremendous summary of the gospel itself

But the key issue is for by grace you have been saved through faith. What kind of faith?

Well, it has been pointed out for quite some time that the following phrase Says and that not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God And it has been asserted many times that this assertion on the part of Paul Indicates that faith does not come from yourself.

It is the gift of God Now it is very common if you were to go into the internet right now and look up various and sundry

Web pages and things like that people who try to provide a response to the Reformed position

You will find over and over again people say oh, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait a minute those those Calvinists Just aren't reading their

Bible very well Because that's not what Ephesians 2 8 says if you look at the original language

When Paul says and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God The specific term that he uses in that particular passage when he says that not of yourselves it is the gift of God That particular word is neuter

There are three genders in Greek Masculine feminine and neuter and when he says and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God That's in neuter and the word faith is in the feminine

And while the rules is that's one of those types of terms has to refer to another word that is of the same particular

Gender and so when he says that not of yourselves it can't refer to faith because there are two different genders

And you'll see that very commonly The problem is when you look at the entire preceding phrase

Grace Salvation faith none of them are neuters So what is and that not from yourselves?

It is the gift of God. What is the that? Well, it is quite common for the Apostle Paul to use that neuter term to wrap up the entirety of a preceding phrase or thought

What Paul was saying is all of what came before is not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God grace all of salvation faith itself

They're all gifts of God They're all gifts of God by grace

You have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God not of works

So that no one may boast For we are his workmanship created how?

By our exercise of faith no created in Christ Jesus Unto or for good works

God doesn't save us for no purpose He doesn't grant us the gift of saving faith to no end

There is a purpose Good works are vital But they are the result not the means

It is God's work that saves us So right here at the beginning saving faith gift of God Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8

Well, is that the only place? certainly not in Colossians chapter 1 verses 3 through 4 read

We give thanks to God the father of our Lord Jesus Christ praying always for you

Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which we have for all the Saints Well, that's just an introductory section, right?

That's just an introduction to the book of Colossians, but Frequently we go zoom and right past those we sort of read him like ah, that's sort of the

Opening address in a letter and you just go buy that and get to the meat later on, right? Sometimes the greatest meat is found in those opening salutations

Why did the Apostles give thanks to God the father of Lord Jesus Christ for the Colossians?

Why were they always praying for them since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the

Saints? They gave thanks for the love of the Colossians Because we know that the love of God is poured out in our hearts.

We love him because he first loved us But if we're going to recognize that love comes from God that love is a gift that God gives to us that the only reason

We can love is because he first loved us and he pours his love out inside us Then that also means since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus You see the

Apostles could thank God for their faith and their love Why because the Apostles knew where both faith and love came from?

They didn't give thanks to the Colossians. We are so thankful that you have faith. We thank you for having faith.

You never find that You never find the Apostle saying that Anymore, you'd find them saying we're thankful that you love

You know, we're thankful that God has shed his love abroad in our hearts

Someone actually knows that we have my IM's set up Yes, we are taking questions by Instant message, but it is hard for me to type and talk at the same time

So go ahead post those messages and hopefully I'll be able to see them I don't know if any of you heard that little ring in the background

But that's the only way I can know someone's talking to me if you would like to get hold of us by instant message on AOL, it's ortho po de o o r t h o p o d e o

And we'll get your comment on the air as soon as we can So go ahead and and provide those to me acts chapter 3 verse 16 acts 316 and on the basis of faith in his name

It is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know and the faith which comes through him

Has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all here is a situation where there was faith

There was faith exercised on the part of a man where that faith come from Well, according to the text and the faith which comes through him that is through Jesus Christ Has given him this perfect health where that faith come from All the time you hear people saying things like well, hey, you just don't have enough faith

That's a cop -out Faith healers who say well, I'd love to heal you but you just don't have enough faith.

Sorry, that's cop -out The man who was healed in acts 3 Was saved and was healed

Because the faith which comes from Christ Not because of something he worked up for himself

First Peter chapter 1 verse 21 Who through him speaking of Christians are

Believers in God who raised him from the dead and gave him glory so that your faith and hope are in God Who through him are believers in God not through my faith my activities but through him

I'm a believer in God why because He gives the gift of faith to his people one of my favorites is

Philippians 129 it It's one of my favorites because it it is so counter everything we see in our culture

Philippians 129 says for to you it has been granted for Christ's sake Not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake and I think one of the reasons we don't normally see this one is

Because we don't like what it says at the end of the verse We don't like what it says at the end of the verse

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake to do two things Not only to believe in him

But also to suffer for his sake That's been granted to us given to us and most of us go

No, thanks. I Like God's gifts. I'd love to receive

God's gifts, but The suffering part we can Let's just skip that one.

Okay. I mean, I'm an American Christian and that's okay for Chinese Christians and that's okay for People in Africa and stuff like that and people in Islamic countries where Muslims are constantly persecuted that's okay for them

But for me what God gives me is my is my cars and all the rest that stuff

That's what I want to be granted for Christ's sake But it has been granted to all of his people for Christ's sake to suffer for him

But then there's this other little phrase not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake

It's it's like Paul takes it for granted Takes it for granted not only to believe in him

You see was understood that it has been granted to us to be able to believe in him faith coming from God Ephesians chapter 6 verses 23 through 24 here the closing salutation peace be to the brethren and love with faith

From God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love

And here what he said Peace be to the brethren. Where does peace come from? It comes from God and love with faith from whom

God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ love faith. Where does it come from? It comes from God Hebrews 12 to Hebrews chapter 12 verse 2

I think this is one of the most beautiful passages because it speaks of fixing our eyes on Jesus the author and perfecter of faith

Who for the joy set before him endured the cross despised in the shame and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God Fixing our eyes on Jesus who is

Jesus The author and perfecter of faith, what does author and perfecter mean?

Author is one Who obviously we think of that term primarily in the sense of writes something?

but the actual term itself refers to the origin nature of something the origin or source of something and The perfecter is the one who completes who finishes

There's saving faith, there's a tremendous Definition of saving faith.

It is faith that Jesus starts and Jesus finishes That's saving faith

People say how can I know if I have saving faith it lasts? Oh, but but what I want to know right now well, that's a nice American thought but biblically

The real test of saving faith is that it perseveres remember Jesus said he who perseveres to the end will be saved and Probably the only context you've ever heard that spoken of well

I shouldn't put that way the common way in which you hear that spoken of is say you need to persevere to the end to be saved

See by your persevering you bring about your salvation or is it's very different than that True faith will persevere

Those who persevere to the end show they have true faith The passage is descriptive.

It's describing what true faith does it is not prescriptive It does not tell us how we save ourselves.

It tells us how God saves us by his faith by his work of salvation

Galatians 522 says the fruit of the spirit is what I'll love joy peace patience kindness goodness faithful faithfulness faithfulness

Hmm that very term itself Can be translated as faith most take it in an adjectival way because it's talking about a characteristic in life, but to be faithful requires that you have faith

And that's the fruit of the spirit I hope you're writing all these down. I'll give them to you again in just a moment.

But the last one second peter 1 1 2nd peter chapter 1 verse 1

Simon peter a bondservant an apostle of jesus christ to those who have received a faith Of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of our god and savior jesus christ

Now it's a very important passage about the deity of christ. He's described there as god and savior, but Listen again to what it says to those who have what?

received a faith of the same kind as ours I think the king james says they like precious faith

Well, don't you mean who have exercised their gift of faith? exercised their faith no to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours

Received it given to us Folks there is absolutely positively no basis for boasting

In the gospel of jesus christ There is no way When the gospel is understood that any of us could even begin to say

Christ did most everything for me. Just not quite everything

He did 99 and a half percent and I I did my part.

No no I suggest to you that the common perspective of I was going down the third time

I was in the the ocean and the waves were about to overcome me And then the good ship gospel came alongside

And the the life ring was thrown to me And I grabbed it and I took it and I was saved.

I'm, sorry. I shouldn't do that That's the perspective, isn't it? No, my friends

You weren't going down for the third time You were dead in your trespasses and sins

You weren't floating around the surface You were shark food at the bottom of the ocean

You were crusty You were gone. You were dead Jaws had taken care of you.

I'm having the guys in the studio going and jaws jaws Yeah, jaws had had munched you down.

There wasn't anything left for a life ring to help You being dead in your transgressions and sins god

Made you alive. It's like saying lazarus cooperated with god by walking out of the grave

What is he gonna do stay in there? Jesus said lazarus come forth and lazarus came forth and that was all jesus and none of lazarus

Well, that's the common confession of every believer Every believer says the same thing

I was dead Now i'm alive That's what god did for me

And the fact Like everything else I have it's from god

That's why it perseveres. That's why it endures That's why there is no credit that accrues to me for persevering in faith

Since it's divine faith it does persevere it does endure What are your thoughts?

I have one question already from the internet. Thank you. Whoever you are I feel loved today 508 0 9 60 508 0 9 60 is the phone number.

Give us a call The phone lines are now open at 5 0 8 0 9 60 that's 5 0 8 0 9 60

Please call because the more my husband talks now the less he'll talk when he gets home Yeah, that's true, isn't it

It's all in the family day on the dividing line and it's good to be with you on this saturday afternoon 5 0 8 0 9 60 5 0 8 0 9 60 is the local number

For those of you who are here in the phoenix area Possibly driving around doing what you need to do all

I can tell you is you need to get the yard work done this week because it's uh, It's not going to get any cooler

I think we've finally gotten rid of all those wonderful little winter storms that were coming by uh, the pool water is starting to warm up again and So I imagine a lot of you are out doing the things that you need to do on a saturday afternoon

But if you have a cell phone or if you're near a phone 5 0 8 0 9 60 if you're outside our area

One triple eight talk 960 now i'm going to confess. I am skeptical I am skeptical because over the past a number of days

I have been deluged with uh the emails and various and sundry contacts by roman catholic apologists

If any of you haven't been on the website recently i'm posting these things on the website. It's been pretty interesting the

Type of behavior i've been getting from roman catholic apologists, including one. I'll be debating soon

And there is also an individual who if any of you listened back in december

Called from new york to discuss the topic of sola scriptura called toward the end of the program

We had a brief discussion This individual is a roman catholic seminarian

And he has decided to go on somewhat of a crusade Uh, he has decided to for example try to get into our chat room professor paul guillen on the internet in the irc chat

Under every different name under the sun. He's been banned over and over again Because he dishonestly comes in denies who he really is

And then eventually says oh Well, I am this person and then admits who he really was and he only has one topic that he ever discusses

And if you go back on our archives that are posted on straightgate .com you can hear the call that he gave and uh

The only only topic that is ever discussed by this individual is the topic of sola scriptura and specifically well

Well, why should I believe your interpretation of scripture over a jehovah's witness? And that's all the man will discuss and we have discussed this with him extensively both in email

As well as in the chat room Uh, we've provided answers to him anyone who goes into uh, the uh

America online knows this particular individual Frequents the reformed chat rooms and almost everyone in those chat rooms has him on ignore because that's all he ever talks about He's been answered a thousand times well, i've gotten an instant message and the uh, the instant message is from a screen name other than The person that i've just been mentioning.

However The question is identical in wording Uh to the question this man always asks and he did call

I understand from mr. Pierce, uh earlier today Wanting to get on the air to ask the question again

So I must confess. I think I have pretty good reason to be somewhat skeptical that the

Individual who has sent me this instant message Is probably the same individual that i've answered this question for a dozen times before or more

But on the outside chance on the bare chance that This isn't the same person

I'll answer it again Because it is a common question and it's been a while since we addressed it.

So i'll go ahead and answer it One more a time to uh imitate someone that my parents probably would remember better than most people do today

The question that is asked here. I'll read it to you. I was wondering how to respond When catholics ask how we know by sola scriptura, what is part of the bible alone?

The problem is that I can't show anywhere in the bible alone where it teaches What is canon and when I respond that can is known by the nature of scripture being god breathed and that Right there tells me that there's a 99 .9

chance. This individual is the one that i've been talking about It leads to the question of how do you know?

What is god breathe scripture without an infallible authority? How do you have a bible that is infallible without an infallible authority to recognize?

What is god breathed? How would you respond to that question now? I specifically asked are you this individual?

uh Person responded. No, it isn't. Is he someone you know? So i'm going to try to keep this, uh, the log of this instant message and if it turns out to be the same individual we have more documented evidence that That's uh, well anyways, well

That's a very long question It involves all those things that we spent how many weeks rich did we spend on?

Sola scriptura back in november december. It was five six seven weeks or something like that Establishing all the fundamental foundational issues

One of the main problems with the question Is that it assumes many many things?

Normally, this question is used by the roman catholic who is saying look you need an infallible authority to know what the canon of scripture is and when they

Challenge a christian on that issue and most christians have never thought about Canonization never thought about well, why do we have 66 books and not 65 or 67?

They haven't put a lot of thought into it. So this is what normally ends up happening When they are confused by the question

Then they are told well, the only other option is that you need to have the infallible authority of the magisterium of rome

Well, obviously the exact same question applies to roman catholicism that asked to ask that applies to the scriptures

If you make roman catholicism the infallible authority. Well, how do you know? That roman catholicism is the infallible authority

How do you know what is and is not infallible teaching from the magisterium you ask any roman catholic apologists line them up in a row and ask them a dozen questions about various roman catholic teachings various roman catholic papal pronunciations

Papal bowls is vatican 2 an infallible revelation Not revelation. Is that an infallible statement from the infallible magisterium or not?

You'll get some who say yes, you'll get some who say no you'll get some who give you an answer in the middle You'll get every different kind of answer under the sun

No roman catholic can tell you I have an infallible list from the infallible church of the infallible

Teachings of the infallible church. They can't do it So there is no canon Of infallible teachings from rome.

There's no canon of what tradition is Nothing like that So the question that is asked is just as valid when it's asked of rome

As it's asked of anyone else, but they won't ever discuss that part of it They don't want to discuss that.

Oh, no, we just want to attack solo scriptura We just want to attack the sufficiency of scripture. So keep that in mind two things number one

The canon is an artifact of revelation. What do I mean by that?

Well, it's pretty simple God didn't inspire every book that's ever been written Not every book that has ever been written is theanustas.

It is god -breathed He only inspired a certain number of books. There are only three options either he inspired no books

He inspired some a limited number of books or he inspired all books. Now. No one takes number three

Your atheist would take number one Obviously the second option he inspired some books is the issue

The canon and that canon means the listing of what books are scripture

The canon is created because god only inspires certain books Therefore god infallibly perfectly knows exactly what the canon is

But the can itself is not An article of revelation. It is an artifact of revelation

It comes into existence simply because god inspires certain books and not others

So that canon which we'll call canon number one That canon

Is known perfectly to god It is not Something that god reveals as some separate book.

There is no golden index if that's what you're looking for instead

Canon one is known perfectly completely and fully to god Now the question the person asks is

Well, what about us? How do we then have knowledge of what god has done?

And the question that is asked by the iam person, whoever that may be The question that is asked by an individual seems to assert

That unless we have infallible knowledge of that artifact of revelation

That we cannot have any certain knowledge of what god has done in scripture What he's saying is you have to have an authority that can come along and give you infallible certainty about the canon or you can

Have no canon Now I can turn that around and say do you have infallible certainty?

concerning the infallibility Of the roman church and they don't want to discuss that they can't have it.

They know they can't have it so the question they're asking of us is invalid, but That's what they are going to say

But the question goes back again again having now demonstrated that they don't have an answer to this question themselves Well, do

I claim infallibility for myself? Of course not I don't claim infallibility for myself and I don't claim infallibility for the church

Well But but don't you need to have infallible knowledge and infallible certainty to know anything no

Not a one of us lives our lives on that basis. Not a one of us I often ask these individuals.

Do you believe in the trinity? Well, of course. Are you a trinitarian? Well, yes, of course I'm a trinitarian. Do you have infallible knowledge of everything there is to know about the trinity?

Oh apples and oranges. No, it's not apples and oranges Are you a trinitarian? Yes, do you have infallible knowledge of the doctrine of the trinity?

Well, no Oh, but you have sufficient knowledge of the doctrine the trinity be a trinitarian, right? Well, yeah

Do you believe in the gospel? Well, of course I believe in the gospel Do you have infallible knowledge of every aspect of the gospel? Well, no, then are you saved?

Do you not know the gospel then? Just a few simple questions like that rip the the mask off of this rather shallow attempt to say well

Unless you have an infallible source No you see we protestants we recognize something we're

We're not infallible. And if you ever run into a protestant who claims to be That person has fallen off the track

The only thing that's infallible is god's revelation. That's why we have to turn to it over and over and over again

That's what the church does the church turns to scripture And upholds the truth of scripture that's her role

The church herself is not infallible But what god says and god does is infallible

Oh, you mean you're saying that you you believe the church is wrong in the canon not in the canon that we have no But you see

I can look back in history and I can recognize how the canon came into existence The roman catholic simply has to accept whatever the council of trent told it

Even when history demonstrates the canon chosen by the council of trent runs directly against The historicity and the teachings of the books that it itself canonized specifically in regards to the apocrypha and so the question well boy sounds pretty good, but Unfortunately, it's based upon fraudulent premises well, we have another call to get to and I'm gonna be really interested to find out

Who gave that question in america online if you want to? Get a hold of me ortho podeo online and you can im me and ask the question

We're gonna take a break. We'll be right back with our first caller right after this I'm only allowed a certain number of words per day

So the more of them I get out now the better things are Five oh eight zero nine sixty five zero eight zero nine sixty

We're taking your phone calls and we're talking to steve in phoenix. Good afternoon. Steve. How you doing?

Good afternoon. I'm doing well Thanks. Uh, what's your question today? Well, i've got a kind of a it ties into this

I know this isn't where we started down today on the show, but I just happened to last week come across that Uh your website and one of the debates with tim r.

I believe it was From the online debate, right? Uh -huh. That was done. I think it was done in america online actually

It was looks like it was a couple years ago, maybe um My question kind of is look after looking through that That's the first time i'd ever seen someone from the catholic church defend their position

And I hadn't seen a lot of those arguments before I didn't even realize that they believed some of those things and I Tried to look at it very objectively and sit down and think about it after I read through it all and I kind of came

Up with two questions that I didn't see answered there that weren't discussed in this kind of this concept and it

Kind of ties into what you were just talking about there uh, the first one is if it's true that That uh, jesus said upon, you know, the peter was the rock and upon him

He was going to build his church and that he was the first vicar and thus the first pope And the infallible representative of god who whatever he bound would be bound in heaven and whatever he loosed would be loosed in heaven

Where is the precedent in the entirety of scripture? That you can say if I understand the nature of god from reading the entire bible

That this is a common thing that god says I need an infallible human representative of me on earth to decide

What's right and what's wrong and to run my church? It doesn't it doesn't seem to it doesn't fit logically in anything that i've seen in the bible to begin with And kind of my second part of that question that I came up with as I looked through what they had said was

If that were indeed true Why is it that? We don't see some examples specific examples that peter was

The head of the church when jesus appeared to saul and convert him to paul and made him the great apostle

Why didn't he mention in passing that? Oh, by the way, peter's in charge of the church here and you might want to talk to him before you do anything

And as you go out and start churches, let them know that peter's the man if they have any questions, they should contact him

By email even yes, you know, i'm just i'm not sure how logically they can put forth the argument they make

I mean, I understand they back it up with scripture, of course when it doesn't scripture doesn't agree. They go outside of scripture but um

I just wanted to you know, you've dealt with a lot of this i'm sure and i'm just curious What is that? What is the response to those questions?

Well, uh, the response would be would be twofold. Uh, first of all, I Not sure if you saw the real audio section, but uh, steven luker at uh straightgate .com

Let me know when I met him in chicago just a couple weeks ago that he had just uploaded I don't know how many megs of our debates to his site and some of that included

Uh the debates on the papacy. So if you'd really like to hear how they respond to this stuff, uh, the

About seven and a half hour debate. It was in two parts that I did with jerry Matitix in denver is on the website now and the debate that I did with father mitchell paqua on the papacy

That was last year, uh in long island is also on the web now, so uh

Some folks start listening to that on the web and then order the tape because they can't keep the web connection for that long

But be that as it may those are there if you'd like to hear their presentations, but fundamentally I think probably first of all, they recognize exactly what you what you see there and they

Basically try to go back one of the arguments they've been using recently that I think is is completely bankrupt as they go back to isaiah chapter 22

Uh, they they talk about shebna and some other people who were quote -unquote prime ministers under david

Even though that's not the term that's used there And they talk about the key of the house of david and they try to connect that in with matthew chapter 16 and the idea this person was

Was somehow had some level of authority over the house and it was supposed to be a continuing office yada yada, etc

Etc, etc Um, I think they mentioned that in that debate as well. Yeah. Yeah, they did and uh, it's

That's about the only biblical perspective they try to come up with most of the time. It's what I was just mentioning

Well, if you don't have an infallible interpreter, what good is it to have an infallible revelation? and of course that The the logic of that is totally escapes me as well because as soon as you come up with someone who claims to be the infallible

Interpreter you now have to interpret their interpretation If I claim to be the infallible interpreter,

I come onto the air here and say look folks I'm the infallible interpreter of the bible Well, how many people are going to hear what

I say on the air and interpret it in different ways? They still have to have to do the task of interpretation.

All you've done is inserted another layer So you need an infallible interpreter of the infallible interpreter?

Well now you're gonna need another infallible interpreter It just keeps on going forever. It doesn't ever accomplish what people pretend it's going to accomplish

And so really what they're tapping into there is not a logical necessity of an infallible interpreter because the bible doesn't present that Instead the bible presents the holy spirit of god indwelling us

Guiding us leading us Uh and enlightening our hearts and minds and a lifelong process of being conformed the image of christ through his truth

Uh sanctify them the truth thy word is truth is jesus's own words But what they're tapping into is this desire on people's parts to have a black and white ultimate authority

That tells you exactly what to believe that takes care of all the all the messy issues

And that process of growing in grace Whereby you learn these things

And so there's a lot of people who want that there's a lot of people who are looking for it And they're the people that are buying into this type of thing

And so, uh, I think that's at least where they're going with it I don't believe they present a logical need for this because as I just mentioned there's there is no really logical basis for that But they're they're they're tapping into a felt need shall we say and it's very effective

So you're based so you basically comes down to the argument of you know I can say the holy spirit has led me to interpret the passages thus and you can say just the opposite And we just end up at a standstill there

Well what they're saying is that they're saying that's why there needs to be somebody at the top who can basically say no

It's this way, but think about what that statement which is How many times i've heard that statement

I cannot even begin to count think about what that statement says about scripture

What it's saying is that scripture is so unclear and so Ununderstandable so beyond our understanding

That we are left with this situation. Well, it's your interpretation versus my interpretation. No When when you when we deal with jehovah's witnesses, for example

And they try to twist john 2028 ma 'am They can come up with all sorts of wacky stuff, but it doesn't make sense

It may sound like it And what there's what that whole objection is saying is the scriptures are not clear enough in and of themselves to tell us what god wanted

To communicate to us in the scriptures So when isaiah says to the law unto the testimony if they do not appeal to these things, there is no light in them

He didn't really mean that That that's that's not really the case when paul says that there are peter says that there are difficult things in paul that the untaught and unstable distort

People don't seem to realize that means if you are stable and taught you're not going to be distorting these things

There is a process of learning. There is a process of becoming stable And so they are in essence both undercutting the nature of scripture as well as The perspicuity of scripture as well as the process of sanctification.

So i'm glad you read those things It makes it worthwhile that I engage in that type of activity and then hopefully it was uh, it was helpful to you

Yeah, it seems like uh, it seems like a frustrating task for you because certainly nothing got resolved You don't mean you're not going to change his mind and certainly he's not going to change yours

Yeah, but most of the time I do those things. It's for folks like you Who read it later and then can be benefited by it

If we tie this back to what you had originally started this program about which is kind of the one saved always saved doctrine um

How do you deal with um, you know, okay, we're at i'm sorry We're we i'm getting the signal that we're out of time

Please feel free to give us a call back again steve, and we will uh, talk to you about that Then thanks for being with us today.

Make sure to be here again next week for the dividing line The dividing line is a presentation of alpha and omega ministries.

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