Saving Faith and the Sovereignty of God

1st Peter 3 15. But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give An account for the hope that is in you yet with gentleness and reverence.

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us. Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with dr. White, you can call now by dialing five zero eight zero nine sixty.

That's five zero eight zero nine sixty and now with today's topic. Here's James White.

Saving Faith as God’s Gift, Not Human Achievement

And welcome to the dividing line today. My name is James White. Good to be with you on a beautiful and I do believe a warming Saturday afternoon. I think we're gonna see those triple digits in the not-too-distant future and that's just the way things are here in Phoenix, Arizona.

Today, I would like to hopefully challenge you just a little bit in regards to how it is. We present the gospel and specifically. Have you ever given some consideration to what it means to have faith?

What is faith you hear the word all the time? Everybody talks about faith. You need to have faith. You need to believe. Well, what is saving faith? That's we're gonna be looking at today. Also, we have a couple of other things going on.

We are on the internet at the moment. You can instant message me at ortho podeo on AOL if you happen to have access to that if you have some questions. We did hook up the computer again this week and We definitely have some new things on the horizon.

Upcoming Travel, Debates, and Temporary Program Hosts

Over the next few weeks as some of you know. Those of you who possibly listen regularly or those of you who have access to the internet website. It had been keeping an eye on the schedule. Beginning next week.

Well, at least here on the program beginning next week I'm gonna be out of town and then for three weeks I'm going to be on Long Island doing a number of things speaking at ten different churches. Doing three different debates one on Roman Catholicism one on the subject of the deity of Christ against a Muslim Apologist which will be a first for us.

We are looking forward to that with some level of trepidation. But then we right afterwards have a debate against a oneness Pentecostal scholar on the subject of the Trinity this last Friday. I did a two-hour Call-in discussion radio show debate slash argument, whatever you want to call it on WMC a radio on Long Island, actually, I think it's in New Jersey, but it covers all of the New York metropolitan area with dr. David Bernard who is the leading scholar for the United Pentecostal Church?

And the topic of that debate was is tongues the initial Sign or evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it was very interesting. We finally got it all boiled down to dr Bernard's insistence that since I do not speak in tongues and have not spoken in tongues.

That means I am NOT justified I am NOT in Christ and That was it took us about two hours to get to that point. It took a lot of digging a lot of specific questions. But we finally got there, but I have a number of things coming up on Long Island so since I'm going to be there the question is who is going to be here and Actually, we are right now lining up those programs going to have a number of our folks in the program will be hosted by a none other than Rich Pierce the president of the ministry and I hope that you will support he and the others that are going to be coming in Primarily discussing the subject of Mormonism while I'm off doing all these other things Might be able to sneak in a phone call sometime while I'm gone to give you a report on The debates as they're taking place and things like that.

But the programs for the next few weeks will be centering on the subject of Mormonism. And I hope you will support These gentlemen as they present this information to you by your calls and your prayers.

Arizona Time, Internet Listeners, and Call-In Information

Those of you who listen by the internet, and I know there are a number of you who do that please make note of the fact that we live in Phoenix, Arizona and Arizona is a is a strange state. It's a wonderful state.

It's a beautiful state but we're sort of individualistic here and We aren't into daylight savings time. We tried it once. I remember it is back in the 70s sometime and What was really strange about it was that during the summer We would be trying to go to bed at 10 o 'clock at night.

And it was still bright outside in a hundred and three degrees and there's just something unnatural about trying to go to sleep when it's bright outside in a hundred and three degrees, so the state as a whole said forget that and All of that to say that we are now for the next six months five and a half months however long it is.

We're now on Pacific time. We like to say hey, we just don't play with our clocks. We leave them where they're supposed to be but we're on Pacific time and then we go to mountain time. They go back to Pacific time and yada yada yada yada so on so forth.

So if you are thinking I had a gentleman in IRC just recently tell me you know if you had announced On the website that last week you're going to do open phones that people could just call in and ask questions.

I'll bet you would have had a lot of long-distance callers calling in to ask questions. Because they want to have that opportunity, but you didn't tell us what your programs were going to be about. Well.

That's probably a valid criticism and a valid suggestion. So I'm letting those of you who do listen by the internet know that over the next number of weeks. From 1 p .m.. To 2 p .m.. Pacific Standard Time, which would be four to five I believe on the East Coast.

Since there's a three-hour difference. We will be discussing the subject of Mormonism and your calls would be welcome at 1 -888-TALK -960. 1 -888-TALK -960 here locally though 508 -0960. 508 -0960 is the local number now.

The Gospel, Human Deadness, and the Question of Saving Faith

I mentioned what we wanted to talk about today, and it's an important subject. It's an important subject not because I think it is but because it impacts. The very way in which we preach the gospel the very way in which we proclaim Christ's truth it has an impact upon the subject of.

The means by which we share the gospel with someone else and what we're asking them to do. What what are we asking people to do? When we ask when we not even ask that's even a more fundamental question.

What are we doing when we present the gospel to people? What does the gospel demand of folks. Is it merely an invitation to believe? What does it mean to believe? What is faith? The reason I thought of this subject today was I remember a a statement made by R .C. Sproul and It's a statement that it caught me and therefore. I would imagine it's going to catch a lot of folks.

But it really highlighted what I thought was a vital truth. R .C. Sproul said and I'm paraphrasing, but hopefully I'm going to get it fairly close. I like to be somewhat accurate and quoting somebody else because I don't like being misquoted myself though that happens all the time.

R .C. Sproul said the question is not What will you do with Christ? The question is what will Christ do with you? The question is not what will you do with Christ? The question is what will Christ do with you?

You see that statement? I think very biblically and accurately. Exposes one of the most fundamental problems. That we have in the common presentation of the gospel in our land today.

And.

That is we present it in the context that well God's done the best he can do. He's really put forth a quite an effort quite an effort indeed, but he's at the end of his rope.

He's.

He's done everything he can do it. He can do no more than what he's done and. So now it's all up to you now it's it's up to the creature and the success or failure of God's entire plan is Dependent upon what you the creature do.

That is the fundamental perspective that is being presented most commonly in our land today. I'd like to suggest you that's not a biblical Presentation. Oh, yes. Paul does say we beg you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God.

We are ambassadors with the message of reconciliation.

Yes.

But that has to be balanced along with the fact that the scripture says that God commands men everywhere to repent. God has never presented in Scripture as an impotent sovereign. In fact, those two words obviously can't go together.

Just sort of sitting back and hoping that people will take him up on his offer. He is presented as the mighty God Who has in Jesus Christ brought about redemption. And the question that is placed to people is yes.

Who is Jesus Christ. Jesus asked his disciples that he wanted to find out from them if they understood who he was. But the question really is as R .C. Sproul put it. It is not what will you do with Christ?

See Christ is going to return. Christ will rule and reign. There is no question of any of that. And the question is what is going to be your relationship to him. What will he do with you. You see it is not as if Christ is coming to us and hoping for us to do something for him.

Instead.

The real presentation of the scriptures is that it is up to us to seek mercy to seek forgiveness from him. He's the master. He's the Lord. We are the ones in need of him. He's not in need of us. We wonder sometimes why the message of The gospel in our land falls on so many deaf ears and has so little power to it.

Maybe it has to do with the fact that we are telling the lost. Well God doesn't really have any power or control. God's doing the best he can but generally he sort of fails. And this is seen when we look at what the New Testament says about what faith really is.

What is saving faith? Is saving faith something that everybody can do? Everybody everybody has the ability to have saving faith. Everybody has the capacity within themselves to believe to believe Firmly enough to grasp salvation and it's just well, some people will some people won't we're not exactly sure.

Ephesians 2:8-10 and Faith as the Gift of God

Why is is that really what the Bible teaches about faith? If you have your scriptures available to you, I'd invite you to turn to Ephesians chapter 2. Yes, Ephesians chapter 2 that classic passage dealing with the issue of salvation and in Ephesians chapter 2 after Paul talks about the deadness of man and sin and The mercy of God and making us alive together in Christ.

We have the classic passage Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 through 10 and There we read for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God not as a result of works so that no one may boast.

For we are his workmanship Created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Now we could spend the entire hour just unpacking a few of the phrases in that particular section of verses it's it's an incredible statement a tremendous summary of the gospel itself.

But the key issue is for by grace you have been saved through faith. What kind of faith? Well, it has been pointed out for quite some time that the following phrase Says and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God.

And it has been asserted many times that this assertion on the part of Paul Indicates that faith does not come from yourself. It is the gift of God. Now it is very common if you were to go into the internet right now and look up various and sundry Web pages and things like that people who try to provide a response to the Reformed position.

You will find over and over again people say oh, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait a minute. Those those Calvinists just aren't reading their Bible very well. Because that's not what Ephesians 2 8 says if you look at the original language.

When Paul says and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God. The specific term that he uses in that particular passage when he says that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God. That particular word is neuter.

There are three genders in Greek Masculine feminine and neuter and when he says and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God. That's in neuter and the word faith is in the feminine and While the rules is that's one of those types of terms has to refer To another word that is of the same Particular gender and so when he says that not of yourselves it can't refer to faith because there are two different genders and You'll see that very commonly.

The problem is when you look at the entire preceding phrase.

Grace.

Salvation faith none of them are neuters. So what is and that not from yourselves? It is the gift of God. What is the that? Well, it is quite common for the Apostle Paul to use that neuter term to wrap up the entirety of a preceding phrase or thought.

What Paul was saying is all of what came before is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God grace all of salvation faith itself. They're all gifts of God. They're all gifts of God. By grace, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves.

It is a gift of God not of works. So that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship created. How? By our exercise of faith no created in Christ Jesus. Unto or for good works. God doesn't save us for no purpose.

He doesn't grant us the gift of saving faith to no end. There is a purpose. Good works are vital. But they are the result not the means. It is God's work that saves us. So right here at the beginning saving faith gift of God.

Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8. Well, is that the only place? Certainly not in Colossians chapter 1 verses 3 through 4 read we give thanks to God the father of our Lord Jesus Christ praying always for you since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which we have for all the Saints.

Well, that's just an introductory section, right? That's just an introduction to the book of Colossians, but Frequently we go zoom and right past those we sort of read him like that's sort of the Opening address in a letter and you just go buy that and get to the meat later on, right?

Sometimes the greatest meat is found in those opening salutations. Why did the Apostles give thanks to God the father of our Lord Jesus Christ for the Colossians? Why were they always praying for them since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the Saints?

They gave thanks for the love of the Colossians. Because we know that the love of God is poured out in our hearts. We love him because he first loved us. But if we're going to recognize that love comes from God that love is a gift that God gives to us that the only reason We can love is because he first loved us and he pours his love out inside us.

Then that also means since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus. You see the Apostles could thank God for their faith and their love. Why because the Apostles knew where both faith and love came from?

They didn't give thanks to the Colossians. We are so thankful that you have faith. We thank you for having faith. You never find that. You never find the Apostles saying that. Anymore, you'd find them saying we're thankful that you love.

No, we're thankful that God has shed his love abroad in our hearts. Someone actually knows that we have my IM's set up. Yes, we are taking questions by Instant message, but it is hard for me to type and talk at the same time.

So go ahead post those messages and hopefully I'll be able to see them. I don't know if any of you heard that little ring in the background. But that's the only way I can know someone's talking to me if you would like to get hold of us by instant message.

On AOL, it's ortho po de o o r th o p o d e o. And we'll get your comment on the air as soon as we can. So go ahead and and provide those to me. Acts chapter 3 verse 16 acts 3 16 and on the basis of faith in his name.

It is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know and the faith which comes through him. Has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. Here is a situation where there was.

Faith.

There was faith exercised on the part of a man. Where that faith come from? Well, according to the text and the faith which comes through him that is through Jesus Christ Has given him this perfect health.

Where that faith come from? All the time you hear people saying things like well, hey, you just don't have enough faith. That's a cop-out. Faith healers who say well, I'd love to heal you but you just don't have enough faith.

Sorry, that's cop-out. The man who was healed in acts 3 Was saved and was healed. Because the faith which comes from Christ. Not because of something he worked up for himself. First Peter chapter 1 verse 21.

Who through him speaking of Christians are Believers in God. Who raised him from the dead and gave him glory so that your faith and hope are in.

God.

Who through him are believers in God not through my faith my activities but through him. I'm a believer in God. Why. Because He gives the gift of faith. To his people. One of my favorites is Philippians 129 it it's one of my favorites because it it is so counter everything We see in our culture.

Philippians 129 says for to you it has been granted for Christ's sake. Not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake. And I think one of the reasons we don't normally see this one is Because we don't like what it says at the end of the verse.

We don't like what it says at the end of the verse. For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake to do two things. Not only to believe in him. But also to suffer for his sake. That's been granted to us given to us and most of us go.

No, thanks. I Like God's gifts. I'd love to receive God's gifts, but The suffering part we can. Let's just skip that one. Okay? I mean, I'm an American Christian and that's okay for Chinese Christians, and that's okay for People in Africa and stuff like that and people in Islamic countries where Muslims are constantly persecuting that's okay for them.

But for me what God gives me is my is my cars and all the rest that stuff. That's what I want to be granted for Christ's sake. But it has been granted to all of his people for Christ's sake. To suffer for him.

But then there's this other little phrase not only to believe in him but also to suffer for his sake. It's it's like Paul takes it for granted. Takes it for granted not only to believe in him. You see was understood that it has been granted to us to be able to believe in him faith coming from God.

Ephesians chapter 6 verses 23 through 24 here the closing salutation peace be to the brethren and love with faith. From God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love.

And hear what he said Peace be to the brethren. Where does peace come from. It comes from God and Love with faith from whom God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ love faith. Where does it come from?

Comes from God. Hebrews 12 to Hebrews chapter 12 verse 2. I think this is one of the most beautiful passages because it speaks of fixing our eyes on Jesus the author and perfecter of faith. Who for the joy set before him endured the cross despised in the shame and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of.

God.

Fixing our eyes on Jesus who is Jesus? The author and perfecter of faith. What does author and perfecter mean? Author is one Who obviously we think of that term primarily in the sense of writes something but the actual term itself refers to the origin nature of something the origin or source of something.

And. The perfecter is the one who completes. Who finishes. They're saving faith. There's a tremendous definition of saving faith. It is faith that Jesus starts and Jesus finishes. That's saving faith.

People say how can I know if I have saving faith it lasts? Oh, but but what I want to know right now. Well, that's a nice American thought but biblically. The real test of saving faith is that it perseveres.

Remember Jesus said he who perseveres to the end will be saved. And. Probably the only context you've ever heard that spoken of well. Shouldn't put that way. The common way in which you hear that spoken of is say you need to persevere to the end to be saved.

See by your persevering you bring about your salvation. Or is it's very different than that. True faith will persevere. Those who persevere to the end show they have true faith. The passage is descriptive.

It's describing what true faith does. It is not prescriptive. It does not tell us how we save ourselves. It tells us how God saves us by his faith by his work of salvation. Galatians 5 22 says the fruit of the Spirit is what.

Oh love joy peace patience kindness goodness. Faithful faithfulness. Faithfulness that very term itself Can be translated as faith. Most take it in an adjectival way because it's talking about a characteristic in life, but.

To be faithful requires that you have.

Faith.

And that's the fruit of the Spirit. I hope you're writing all these down. I'll give them to you again in just a moment, but the last one. 2nd Peter 1 1. 2nd Peter chapter 1 verse 1. Simon Peter a bondservant an apostle of Jesus Christ.

To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. Now it's a very important passage about the deity of Christ. He's described there as God and Savior, but listen again to what it says to those who have what?

Received a Faith of the same kind as ours. I think the King James says they like precious faith. Well, don't you mean who have exercised their gift of faith? Exercise their faith. No to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours.

Received it given to us. Folks there is absolutely positively no basis for boasting in the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no way when the gospel is understood that any of us could even begin to say Christ did most everything for me just not quite everything.

He did.

Ninety nine and a half percent and I I did my part. No. No, I suggest to you that the common perspective of I was going down the third time I was in the the ocean and the waves were about to overcome me and then the good ship gospel came alongside.

And the the life ring was thrown to me and I grabbed it and I took it and I was saying I'm sorry, I shouldn't do that. That's the perspective, isn't it? No, my friends. You weren't going down for the third time.

You were dead in your trespasses and sins. You weren't floating around the surface. You were shark food at the bottom of the ocean. You were crusty you were gone. You were dead. Jaws had taken care of you.

I'm having the guys in the studio are going at jaws jaws. Yeah, jaws had had munched you down. There wasn't anything left for a life ring to help you being dead. In your transgressions and sins God made you alive.

It's like saying Lazarus cooperated with God by walking out of the grave. Was he gonna do stay in there? Jesus said Lazarus come forth and Lazarus came forth and that was all Jesus and none of Lazarus.

Well, that's the common confession of every believer. Every believer says the same thing. I Was dead. Now I'm alive. That's what God did for me.

And the fact.

Like everything else I have It's from God. That's why it Perseveres that's why it endures. That's why there is no credit that accrues to me for peers persevering in faith. Since it's divine faith. It does persevere it does.

Endure.

What are your thoughts? I have one question already from the Internet. Thank you. Whoever you are. I feel loved today. 508 0 9 60 5 0 8 0 9 60 is the phone number. Give us a call.

That's 5 0 8 0 9 60, please call because the more my husband talks now the less he'll talk when he gets home.

And that's true, isn't it? It's all in the family day on the defining line and it's good to be with you on this Saturday afternoon. 5 0 8 0 9 60. 5 0 8 0 9 60 is the local number for those of you who are here in the Phoenix area.

Possibly driving around doing what you need to do all I can tell you is you need to get the yard work done this week because it's It's not gonna get any cooler. I think we've finally gotten rid of all those wonderful little winter storms that were coming by the pool water is starting to warm up again and So I imagine a lot of you are out doing the things that you need to do on a Saturday afternoon.

But if you have a cell phone or if you're near a phone 5 0 8 0 9 60 if you're outside our area 1 triple 8 talk 960 now, I'm gonna confess. I am skeptical. I am skeptical because over the past a number of days I have been deluged with the emails and various and sundry contacts by Roman Catholic apologists.

If any of you haven't been on the website recently, I'm posting these things on the website. It's been pretty interesting the Type of behavior I've been getting from Roman Catholic apologists, including one.

I'll be debating soon and There is also an individual who if any of you listened back in December called from New York to discuss the topic of Sola scriptura called toward the end of the program. We had a brief discussion this individual is a Roman Catholic seminarian and He has decided to go on somewhat of a crusade.

He has decided to for example try to get into our chat room process Paul again on the internet in the IRC chat. Under every different name under the Sun. He's been banned over and over again Because he dishonestly comes in denies who he really is.

And.

Then eventually says oh Well, I am this person. And then admits who he really was and he only has one topic that he ever discusses. And if you go back on our archives that are posted on straightgate .com, you can hear the call that he gave and The only this only topic that is ever discussed by this individual is a topic of Sola scriptura and specifically well well, why should I believe your interpretation of Scripture over a Jehovah's Witness and That's all the man will discuss.

And we have discussed this with him extensively both an email as well as in the chat room. We've provided answers to him anyone who goes into.

The.

America online and knows this particular individual. Frequents the reformed chat rooms and almost everyone in those chat rooms has him on ignore because that's all he ever talks about. He's been answered a thousand times well, I've gotten an instant message and the the instant message is from a screen name other than.

The person that I've just been mentioning. However, the question is identical in wording. To the question this man always asks and he did call I understand from mr. Pierce earlier today. Wanting to get on the air to ask the question again, so I must confess I think I have pretty good reason to be somewhat skeptical that the individual who has sent me this instant message is probably the same individual that I've answered this question for a dozen times before or more but on the outside chance on the bare chance that This isn't the same person I'll answer it again.

Because it is a common question and it's been a while since we addressed it. So I'll go ahead and answer it. One more a time to imitate someone that my parents probably would remember better than most people do today.

Sola Scriptura and the Canon of Scripture

The question that is asked here. I'll read it to you. I was wondering how to respond. When Catholics ask how we know by sola scriptura, what is part of the Bible alone? The problem is that I can't show anywhere in the Bible alone where it teaches.

What is canon and when I respond that can is known by the nature of scripture being God breathed and that right there tells me? That there's a ninety nine point nine percent chance. This individual is the one that I've been talking about.

It leads to the question of how do you know? What is God breathe scripture without an infallible authority? How do you have a Bible that is infallible without an infallible authority to recognize? What is God breathed?

How would you respond to that question now, I specifically asked are you this individual? Person responded. No, it isn't. Is he someone you know? So I'm going to try to keep this. The log of this instant message and if it turns out to be the same individual we have more documented evidence that.

That's well anyways, well That's a very long question. It involves all those things that we spent. How many weeks rich did we spend on solo scriptura back in November December. It was five six seven weeks or something like that establishing all the fundamental foundational issues.

One of the main problems with the question is that it assumes many many things. Normally this question is used by the Roman Catholic who is saying look you need an infallible authority to know what the key in the scripture is and when they Challenge a Christian on that issue and most Christians have never thought about Canon is it canonization never thought about well?

Why do we have 66 books and not 65 or 67 they haven't put a lot of thought into it? So this is what normally ends up happening. When they are confused by the question. Then they are told well the only other option is that you need to have the infallible authority of the Magisterium of Rome.

Well, obviously the exact same question applies to Roman Catholicism that asked to ask that applies to the scriptures. If you make Roman Catholicism the infallible authority, well, how do you know that Roman Catholicism is the infallible authority?

How do you know what is and is not infallible teaching from the Magisterium you ask any Roman Catholic apologists line them up in a row? And ask them a dozen questions about various Roman Catholic teachings various Roman Catholic papal pronunciations papal bowls.

Is Vatican to an infallible revelation Revelation. Is that an infallible statement from the infallible Magisterium or not? You'll get some who say yes. You get some who say no, you'll get some who give you an answer in the middle.

You'll get every different kind of answer under the Sun. No Roman Catholic can tell you I have an infallible list from the infallible Church of the infallible Teachings of the infallible Church. They can't do it.

So there is no canon of infallible teachings from Rome. There's no canon of what tradition is. Nothing like that. So the question that is asked is just as valid when it's asked of Rome as it's asked of anyone else.

But they won't ever discuss that part of it. They don't want to discuss that. Oh, no, we just want to attack solo scriptura. We just want to attack the sufficiency of Scripture. So keep that in mind two things.

Number one. The canon is an artifact of revelation. What do I mean by that? Well, it's pretty simple. God didn't inspire every book that's ever been written. Not every book that has ever been written is the Anus toss.

It is God breathed. He only inspired a certain number of books. There are only three options either he inspired no books. He inspired some a limited number of books or inspired all books. No one takes number three.

Your atheists would take number one. Obviously the second option he inspired some books is the issue. The canon and that canon means the listing of what books are scripture. The canon is created because God only inspires certain books.

Therefore God infallibly perfectly knows exactly what the canon is but the can itself is not an Article of Revelation it is an artifact of Revelation. It comes into existence. Simply because God inspires certain books and not others so that canon which we'll call canon number one.

That canon is known perfectly to God. It is not Something that God reveals as some separate book. There is no golden index if that's what you're looking for instead. Canon one is known perfectly completely and fully to God.

Now the question the person asks is well, what about us? How do we then have knowledge of what God has done. And The question that is asked by the I am person whoever that may be. The question that is asked by an individual seems to assert That unless we have infallible knowledge of that artifact of Revelation.

That we cannot have any certain knowledge of what God has done in Scripture. What he's saying is you have to have an authority that can come along and give you infallible Certainty about the canon or you can have no canon.

Now I can turn that around and say do you have infallible certainty? Concerning the infallibility of the Roman Church, and they don't want to discuss that they can't have it they know they can't have it so the question they're asking of us is invalid, but.