Jerusalem Jones Update

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. We are having an argument here and I say my computer.

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It's up. I Am using the same software. Yes the same program that you 11 12 13 14 15.

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Yes. Okay. So why was it didn't start eight? It didn't start eight seconds after it it, you know, it has a queue and it's it's

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In there it says Go and it takes it a second to kick in Don't give me that don't even give me that I Concur the time is correct.

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The time may be correct, but the computer the computer Little impatient today too slow getting started

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I'll send your watch I was counted down five six and right between six and seven it went DDD DDD DDD So it was just slow as molasses in January, you know, that computer is so old that it would not even qualify under the

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Obama medical care for repair It's one of those ones they're gonna suggesting euthanasia

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Yes, the new federal guidelines would definitely be for euthanasia. What did when we get that thing?

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I mean that's older than the one of my office. That thing is probably late I think this was originally a unit in your office.

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You think so? Yeah, but it was probably so Talking late 90s when I built the machine that you have in your office now, maybe

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I took this one out Did an upgrade on it make sense that would have been around 2003

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I think I can't 2002 I don't know. Anyways, it's old so it's slow

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We start off with real professionalism here, by the way that reminds me and I'm not sure why it reminds me

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But since it does I'll go ahead and mention it that as of right now Yes, I do have a cough drop but it's on the other side of my computer

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As of right now I am scheduled on Tuesday very early

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Tuesday morning to join, Justin Brierley on the

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Unbelievable radio program in London via ISDN from one of our local Christian stations

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So I should sound like I'm not on a phone line I should sound like I'm in studio actually, even though I won't be in London to do that and Right now we have confirmed that we are going to have a program on Calvinism and Arminianism But there's only one

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Calvinist me the one Arminian is Roger Forster of the

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Forster Marston books in 1970s of Bethany house and Gregory Boyd the open theist now

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Forster is a conditional Conditionalist so it doesn't believe in eternal punishment and Boyd of course is an open theist.

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So I guess you can't find Orthodox Arminians in the United Kingdom I've already said that so That's going to air.

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I would assume That would air the next Saturday or the Saturday after that because there's a possibility of a second program on eternal punishment also with Forster Unless he can find someone locally to do that, which so far he has not been able to do

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So we will see but those will be on the unbelievable radio program So I'm looking forward to having my first encounter with Gregory Boyd having debated

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John Sanders in the past on the subject of Open theism as well, but obviously that really

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Expands the area a lot I think it's be very difficult to get a whole lot said Because you're gonna be dealing with so many different perspectives coming at you and especially

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You know having to deal with open theism and the fact that I believe open theism is outside of the pale of orthodoxy to use that terminology and So it's gonna be it's gonna be a bit of a bit of a challenge and it's even more so when

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Nobody's could be seeing anybody else. I suppose Justin might be seeing Roger Forster in the studio, but one person's a phone one person's on ISDN a little bit challenging, but that'll be on Tuesday of next week which

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Might mean a problem in doing the dividing line if I end up having to do the conditional mortality thing

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Because if if we go later because Justin raised the possibility of going from 7 to 10 doing a second program

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So if we go later Do a second program then that would really make it

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I'd be hoofing it to get back here But I might make it as long as we get it right at 10. I should make it So we'll see anyway.

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That's what's coming up. It could be interesting and if it does get if that does get Really I Don't know confirmed

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Then I've got a lot of reviewing to do over the weekend because You know,

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I need to be listening to these guys try to figure out where they're coming from You know what their perspectives are and so I'm gonna be spending a lot of time on the bike listening to stuff

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I already downloaded and have already converted audio book files so I can put on the shuffle and start listening So that will be most most interesting

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We haven't even really determined how much it's gonna cost. Yeah. Well, you know what? We might just need to put up a block

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Well, we just found out they're gonna be charging a whole hassle of money to do this. The bookkeeper goes crazy and falls out of his chair.

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Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. Well, you know, I if they if if it's just the hourly rate they were talking about I don't know that it could it could be that bad because well

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It shouldn't be that much. So anyway, that's what we are going to attempt to do We've got lots of phone calls coming in here, but I want to get to a couple things before we get started

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I want it and it sort of fits in with the first caller there. Anyways, so here is this will give you an idea of who we need to review here quickly at the beginning of the program and Make sure that the thing is up here ready to go

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Yes, indeed our special theme music for Jerusalem Jones Catholic answers and all the other places

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That he appears over time Yes, indeed Jerusalem Jones your source of all information biblical historical and Roman Catholic and so on and so forth

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James Swan was sending me a bunch of stuff. I guess he was on with Marcus Grodi recently where I think they go deep into Scripture and So let's let's listen to a few minutes of this before I start taking the phone calls because there's a discussion from John chapter 3

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We got to get to you always have to be careful when Roman Catholic apologists start trying to do Greek Because It sometimes gets a little ugly

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I was just I'm writing a blog article started yesterday still haven't gotten it done I don't know what

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I'm gonna get it done. I just I just don't move as fast as I used to but I'm writing a blog article in response to some things

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Mark Shea said and He he does the old Jerry Matta ticks

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Jesus a Mary Ark of the Covenant thing and I think he just took it straight off of a

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Jerry Matta ticks tape because he makes the exact same mistake that I corrected with Jerry Matta ticks 14 years ago

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Yeah, 14 14 years ago, but you still repeat it because these guys like talk about Greek But they can't actually read the language to check out whether what they're saying is true or not

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So it's going I want to say and then they end up making mistakes as a result But anyways, let's let's start off with a little bit of Steve right here before the break

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There's this at least I presume it's a common theme the seeing of the kingdom of God This having eternal life.

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In fact, he says in verse 36 not not only that's something we will have but it's something that we have

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Yeah, talk to us about that. Yeah, this whole passage is referring to the kingdom of God and how do we get into it?

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and the Nicodemus is kind of locked into the kingdom of God as he saw in Israel at the time and Jesus is saying, you know something

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Nicodemus I'm gonna open your eyes a little here if you're willing to listen is that the kingdom of God is bigger than the geographical bounds of Israel and the city of Jerusalem the kingdom of God is a

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Spiritual kingdom and it's going to be open for everybody But in order to get in there you have to be born into it

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You can't just say that I'm a son of Abraham and I live in Israel Therefore I'm part of the kingdom of God, but there's something new being started here

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Nicodemus and it's surprising that you don't know these things He even says you're a teacher of Israel and you don't understand these things.

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You should know these things And he says that this is a new kingdom that I'm starting. It's a spiritual kingdom.

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It's an eternal kingdom It's not of this earth and in order to get into it just like to become a son of Abraham You have to be born through the loins of Abraham Guess what in order to become a kingdom in this new kingdom of God you have to be born into it

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You have to come from above and so this passage is explaining How do you get from just an earthly life into this new spiritual kingdom?

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How do you become born again to be a king's kid and I like to refer to it that way the king's kid

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You're being born into a royal family How do you do it? well he starts out by saying this new birth comes about by water and spirit and that's what you have to do to come into the kingdom of God and So here we come.

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This is one of his favorite topics baptism now listen to not only the just just the

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Assumption in regards to early church, but listen to what he says about what Baptists believe about baptism

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This is if you're a Baptist listen carefully to former Baptist Steve Ray understanding we could talk for a whole hour easy on this and The whole idea of water and spirit refers to water baptism.

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This was the universal teaching of the early church Nobody questioned the fact that this water and spirit the means to becoming born again into this new kingdom is

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Water baptism the fathers of the church the very first Christians all the way through the first 1 ,500 years nobody challenged it until Martin Luther and those others who followed him started to challenge a lot of the things

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That were taught by the church, but this water and spirit is water baptism the way you get into the church now

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I was never taught this as a Baptist. I was never taught baptism meant nothing It did nothing it wasn't important It was an optional thing that you did if you wanted to but you didn't have to do and I know you was a

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Lutheran And a Presbyterian that it was important, but not not to the degree. It is for a Catholic.

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It's right still had different again Presbyterian Lutheran Baptist and Catholic there's four different perspectives on the meaning of baptism

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Yes, I married a Presbyterian girl, and she had a certificate of her infant baptism And I was a guest you mean you're baptized as an infant like a

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Catholic I mean this shock, but I was only baptized as a teenager But they let me know that it didn't mean anything when my kids got baptized in the

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Baptist Church I made them write a four -page little paper for me to prove that baptism didn't do anything

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It was only a witness to the world that you've accepted Christ as your Savior So there you go folks

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Baptists Believe that baptism means nothing it has no meaning whatsoever

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Now I would assume. I you know if you wanted to just extend a lot of grace.

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I would assume That what he's talking about Is that it in and of itself is not salvific, but you know

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I? If you if you've spoken the English language for any you know length of time whatsoever

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It would sort of follow that you would be aware of the fact that That that those are not exactly synonymous phrases

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That that in essence what would when you say it doesn't mean anything that that's completely different Than saying that it is not the means of justification

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Or anything along those lines It doesn't mean anything.

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That's what we were told I'm sorry. It's pretty hard to take that kind of rhetoric seriously especially when a little bit later on they start getting deep into the text and we we start hearing about John chapter 3 in the nature of faith and most specifically we start getting into John chapter 3 and Well the

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Greek now as far as I know Steve Ray has

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You know he likes to tell us that he went to Rome And he did he did a class and people got doctoral level level credit for attending his class in in Rome And that's that's very interesting, but as far as I know he's he's never actually taught any of these languages

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And I sort of doubt that if I walked up to him with a Greek New Testament didn't have English in it That he would actually be able to translate any of that material

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So when he starts telling us about You know what it what the text says we've got so many callers.

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I'm going to go ahead and skip into This one. It's a fairly lengthy clip, but let's let's just sort of pick up in the middle with this you have it

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That was the way I was raised in fact I have a relative who accepted

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Christ as his Savior at one point in his life And then a year later rejected it and my mother considered him still to be saved because he had accepted

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Christ as his Savior Now just for background they're talking about once saved always saved now He's not going to differentiate between Once saved always saved in the perseverance the

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Saints or anything like that because the fact the matter is he's Admitted it many many many times. He was an ignorant

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Baptist and So he doesn't he isn't concerned about accurately representing that Because that wasn't the milieu from which he came which

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I think should have something to do with how you sort of view That conversion if you don't really you know know

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Much about the situation and and we're ignorant than that you know sort of has something to do with your your conversion

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But anyways, that's the background of what was being said there was this this idea that if you believe in once Marcus Grodi had basically said that You know once you believe in total depravity, then you have this minimized gospel

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I have no idea where they get all that kind of stuff I had another relative who was a Catholic who went to mass every day and confession and prayed the rosary

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But because he was Catholic he was going to hell because he had never accepted Jesus as his

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Lord and Savior This is how skewed my upbringing was now I understand it and why it was taught that way, but you're right this verse was given to me as a

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Baptist boy growing up that if I did accept this Jesus And I and here in this context that I believed in him that there was no works that I could do there was nothing

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I Could add to it. I only had to believe it was by faith alone There was no works involved and yet I realized as I grew up though that even the word believe is a verb

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Which means that I have to do something I do have to do something. It's not just Christ He did the full all the work for me and from my

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Baptist perspective, but even then I still had to do something I had to believe I had to exercise faith. I had to receive the gift and So once I would do that then supposedly as you said,

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I would have eternal security There's nothing that I could do to lose that. However, when I began to study this passage of John 3 16

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I realized that the word believe was not in the Greek which is the original languages

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The Greek was not a one point in time verb meaning that only at one point in time

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I believe therefore from that point on there's nothing I could do to lose it, but that the Greek word was what?

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In the perfect tense and I'm trying to make this simple without getting complicated is in the perfect tense

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Which means that it could be read if you are habitually believing in me

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If you are believing in me right now, then you will be having eternal life This is something that I have to continue to do.

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I have to continue to believe in him I have to continue to exercise this faith. I have to continue to live in Christ and as John says later

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I have to continue to abide in him like a vine does on the branch It's not just that at one point in time

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I kneel down and pray and ask Jesus to be my Savior and now I have once saved always saved eternal security

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I can't lose it No, no No Even this verse here John 3 16 says it in the Greek when you would read it the implication is for God So loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever is

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Believing in him will be having eternal life and will not perish Okay, so there's

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Steve Ray telling us about the original Greek and evidently

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From those comments. It sounded to me like what he was saying was that Baptists believe in an aorist tense faith a one -point point action in time type faith

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And what you actually have here is a perfect tense Which is ongoing a couple things.

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First of all Baptist I think I can speak as a as a Baptist and there are lots of Ignorant Baptists out there who might believe some of the things

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Steve Ray says but the reality is Anyone and of course,

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I just heard this clip today. It was sent to me if you would like to go to the website of the

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Trinity Baptist Church in Montville and Look at the sermon audio link that they have for my sermon at Trinity Baptist a week ago

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Sunday evening One of the points that I made which I have made many times on this webcast and in many of my sermons and teachings has to do with the

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Gospel of John and specifically his regular use of the present

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Both for the verbal form and the participial form. This is not a finite verb in John 3 16

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By the way, it is a participle a substantival participle. In fact, but we'll get that in a moment The fact that John uses the present tense not not the perfect Mr.

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Ray is just simply wrong about that the the word the one believing in John 3 16 is a present participle.

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It is not a perfect tense verb it is a present participle the one believing and He seems to misunderstand that Even what a present or a perfect would mean this is not a perfect tense

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It's not translated as a perfect tense The perfect would be a complete action to pass with abiding results the present what he's actually describing is the present tense not the not the perfect and He would if he took time to listen to that would know that we often emphasize the reality of the fact

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That in John the saving faith is in the present tense it is the one believing ongoing faith

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I made that point very strongly in a book called the fatal flaw, which was the first book

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I ever wrote came out in 1990 on the subject of Roman Catholicism and Pointed out in the

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Gospel of John that we have these places. I was preaching from John 8 at Trinity Baptist Where those disciples who believed on him that wasn't a present there in John 8

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It used a different form and in point of fact Those very same people are picking up stones to stone

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Jesus later on so I was differentiated between the saving faith that we see in the

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Gospel of John and the false faith of various false professors at various points in time, so Baptists would not believe in an heiress faith as a saving faith in the first point and Secondly as I said he is simply in error on his reading of the

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Greek language at this point I I really have a hard time believing that mr. Ray would even be able to tell the difference between a

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Substantive a participle in a finite verb in the Greek language if you were to hand him a Greek New Testament without any

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English Translation in it, but hey, maybe I could be wrong and then you have to explain

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Why he just completely slaughtered that particular perspective so There you have one of the reasons why you you might want to be careful in the future when you listen to When you hear this music

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Coming up in the background you you need to be careful that The information you're getting from the fellow in the floppy hat might not be as accurate as you would like it to be

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When it comes to the Greek of the of the New Testament, so there you go Thank you very much.

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There's our Jerusalem Jones update for the day. I have like seven. I think I have seven clips queued up here

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But I don't think we're gonna really really have a chance to get to all seven of them But it was interesting to listen to so what are you looking at?

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We have a studio audience today, that's always unnerving Always on you never know what's gonna happen

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In a studio audience you can get a little bit eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number lots and lots of Folks have done that so far today

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And I have noticed that seemingly happens on Thursdays more than it does on Tuesdays They're exceptions, but the fact that it's in the evening does make it a little bit easier for folks to call in so One of the first folks to call in is

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Matthew from Florida. Hi Matthew Doing just fine You're I had a little problem with your post that you put up for the

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Sunday school on June 14th of 2009 and You had put up a video, and you discussed that a little bit

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Give me some give me some context. I'm not sure what you mean. Oh when you were talking about the

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Practicing Catholic. Oh yes, yes, yes Well, I wanted to address that specifically because I don't really find that Appropriate And you said well it has been rightly said that a large portion of the guards at Google involved in Auschwitz were practicing

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Catholics Now you did this You use this in order to read into your into it to your book to your post and I was just curious as to why you use that little factoid big

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Are you able to substantiate that a large portion of these guards were actually practicing Catholics?

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Yeah, we actually cover this on the dividing line Matthew I pointed out that once again it amazes me that yourself and others

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Would take a statement that was on a completely different topic was not even meant as an argument about Roman Catholicism was never expanded upon as an argument about Roman Catholicism was an observation of the reality that in 1940 in Germany there were two major religious groups if you're familiar with the history of the

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Reformation in Germany Then you know that the northern portions of Germany are

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Lutheran in and of course we're talking about 1940 here. We're not talking about today And the southern portions especially because of what happened with Luther and the issue of the

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Peasants Revolt Between right around 1525 or so since his response to the

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Peasants Revolt was not what the peasants themselves wanted there was really a major backlash against Luther and the southern portions of Germany which of course, but right up to Italy and were heavily influenced by the closeness of Rome at that point remained

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Roman Catholic and Lutheranism really never made a great deal of headway

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After after that point in time so there were two major religious organizations in Germany in 1940

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Catholics and Lutherans and what amazed me was I mentioned all of that I Specifically mentioned the

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Lutherans as well and nobody got upset about that It was only because I mentioned the fact that there were people who claimed to be religious who do horrible things

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And that nominalism is a problem well for everybody Almost everywhere in the world.

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There's a you know that right. Yes, you're missing several points here a two -thirds of the

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Christian population was Protestant only a third of the Christian population in Germany at that time was

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Catholic. What do you mean Christian population? Christian what do you mean Germany at the time the statistics say that in 1939

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Two -thirds of Christians in Germany were Protestant one -third were Catholic okay, and what was the

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Are you saying there was a huge? Atheist population or what there was actually a growing population at that time yes in Germany of Antireligious yes, that's absolutely correct

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Now when we look at the terms that you use because you didn't say baptized Catholics if you would have said baptized

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Catholics We maybe we could have gone along with that Mm -hmm which means that you would have to justify that the actual guards in the prison camps were going to mass

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We're following the basic precepts of the church Which which you can't do okay?

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Okay, so one more time Matthew so one more time Matthew you admit That the comment had nothing to do with an arguing about Roman Catholicism, right?

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It mentioned it mentions Catholics in it Do you admit Matthew answer the question do you admit that what

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I said in Sunday school? Was not an argument about Roman Catholicism. It was not your main point of topic

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No, do you admit it was not an argument about Roman Catholicism? Yes, or no sir? I said the main point of your okay one one last time will you answer the question?

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It's a yes or no question Yes, or no was I making an argument about Roman Catholicism Okay, thank you very much

27:39

Matthew All right, we move on from there. I'm sorry, but This kind of stuff is so absurd to me that I'm not gonna waste everybody else's time when you have people asking questions

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They're actually meaningful like witnessing the Mormons one last time These folks cannot deal with the arguments we present against Roman Catholicism like I just presented

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Documenting that Steve Ray doesn't know what he's talking about. So what they have to do is they have to take stuff

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Well, let me give you another example if I if you if you want one right now Mark Shea in his new series of books

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Wants to take a shot at me. So what does he do? He finds a statement from a sola scriptura debate with Jerry Maddox not my debates on Mary Not my book on Mary but a statement from a 1992 debate with Jerry Maddox in passing

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About the early churches interpretation of Revelation chapter 12 and he quotes that as if it is the representation of my actual position on the interpretation of Revelation 12 and the woman and Attaching that to Mary so on and so forth

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Why not go to where I actually debated these issues? Why not go to or actually discuss the topic? well, because they can't do that they have to find this other stuff and throw it out there and say well, um

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They weren't really practicing Catholics They were non practicing

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Catholics as if I was even talking about the subject Which I was not

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I was talking about the issue of nominalism. I was introducing a discussion of Matthew chapter 23

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I wasn't even talking about Roman Catholicism and yet these people are so desperate that's

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Matthew Bellisario the Catholic champion and instead of rehabilitating Steve Ray there and saying well

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Actually, here's a defense that he can't They can't touch what we say about these things.

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So what do they have to do? Well, um, they weren't really practicing Well, was I making an arguing about Roman Catholic?

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Yes or no, sir. Yes. I gave him three chances They're not three times answer a simple question and Matthew if you can't do that Then there's no reason to even try to reason with you.

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I'm sorry. It's just ridiculous It's just absolutely beyond Ridiculous and since we wasted that time

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I'm gonna skip the break and let's attack talk with Daniel about something important. That is witnessing the

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Muslims. Hi Daniel Better now, hopefully we'll actually accomplish something and maybe you can engage in a conversation where you know

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If I ask a yes or no question, you can actually come back with a yes or no question I'm a math teacher.

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Welcome to my world. Oh, there you go a Couple months ago a

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Friend of mine had an opportunity to meet with actually five Mormons at their Institute of religion on and on campus in a

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Texas town and we debated for about 80 minutes mostly focusing on the whether or not

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Jesus Christ is created being mostly focusing on John 1 3 and After 80 minutes is comic.

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Okay. I think we've said all we can say let's agree to disagree And I wasn't invited back And I was wondering in the future like okay help me out here

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John 1 3 so Describe the conversation you said it. Oh, so I was making the point that John 1 3 says all all

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Apart from him. Nothing came into being those come into being and saying well if Jesus created being then according to John 1 3

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He created himself, right? Okay. All right So based upon the presentation of Jesus the creator of all things and you don't really feel like you got anywhere with it

31:24

Yeah, and I'm wondering like supposing more. I mean Mormons come to my door and you know, and I sit down with them

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Do you I mean in your experience do you find such in conversations? Useful or well,

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I'll talk to some people say well, you know what you're just wasting their time. They're not going to listen Well, no, you have to remember the now these were two of the young active missionaries

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Two elders and then three other people. Okay, okay, but we're not over but but the elders were they on their mission at that point in time?

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I Believe so. I'd actually met them earlier in the week when they were walking around campus witnessing

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It sounds like they were because see sometimes you have what's called a stake missionary who is an elder

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But they actually live in the area and they're not currently on their mission. So this is not something they're doing full -time

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There's a little bit of a difference in in that situation when you're talking to a stake missionary who lives in your area

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There's a possibility of having some kind of communication with them over time. But when you're talking about The missionary who is out for his two years.

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He's away from home. He is immersed in Mormonism and In essence on his mission, he's he's basically taught by example and by precept to bury any doubts or issues he has

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So he can make it through this and it's a difficult time. It's a tough time for those young men it many of them come back and Years ago.

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I don't know what this I don't know what the statistics are now, but years ago 60 % of your RM's you return missionaries

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Would go inactive for a period of six months after they came back from the mission they were just basically burned out and During that time period is when all those once you know, they're in this pressure cooker.

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They're always around this other person They're always it, you know either going door -to -door presenting Mormonism passing out tracts doing stuff like that.

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They work them pretty hard All of a sudden they're home and boom the pressures off and all those doubts and questions and issues that have been buried during the period of their mission come bubbling back to the surface and So I do think it is well worth the time to invest to talk to those young men

33:45

Give you a story. I When my son and I we went up to Salt Lake City to pass out tracks

33:51

This is before the King James only folks showed up and destroyed that outreach We were coming back on a

33:57

Sunday morning on a US Airways flight or America West flight back then it might have been that long ago and a class of missionaries had just graduated from the missionary training center in Provo and they were flying out of Salt Lake City to their various locations and there was a whole group coming down to Phoenix and We got on the flight with them and in the providence of God There's this little

34:20

Mormon this young Mormon missionary kid in the window seat with my son and I in the center and the aisle and And so my son switched with me normally he would have been in the center

34:32

But for some reason we switched and so I got to sit right next to this man this young missionary now this is the biggest city he'd ever been in Salt Lake City, which is not a big city and He literally burned through a whole row roll of film in his little snap camera

34:48

Before we got off the ground. He had never been in a big plane before. Okay, this is this is a farm kid from Idaho someplace and we ended up having a fascinating conversation, of course and Gave him a copy of letters to a

35:03

Mormon elder and all the rest of these things Can you imagine you know, I was on my way to my mission and I end up sitting next to James White on the airplane you know,

35:11

I mean he's got stories to tell his grandkids, but you cannot assume that those kids have ever heard a presentation of the gospel never and So it is worthwhile even if you don't feel like you quote -unquote get anywhere because you can't expect someone who's on their mission to to Respond to what you're saying in an overly meaningful fashion.

35:34

One of the things you do have to remember is Not to push so hard that they come up with responses that they'll then go to their grave

35:41

Defending if you can tell that they don't really have an answer Then move on to another illustration of the point just to make sure that the point has been

35:50

Clearly presented like if you want to go to John 1 3 and talk about Jesus the creator of all things. That's great but once you start seeing that They're sort of giving you just a pat answer.

36:00

What you do is then you go over to Colossians chapter 1 you say We know here's another way that the Bible expresses this same thing that all things

36:09

Exist in and through him. In fact, they exist for him now Interesting that from your perspective, how could it be said that the planet that Elohim lived on when he was a man?

36:20

Before he became a god was created for a son. He had yet to be get I mean It just doesn't make any sense

36:27

And then and then you can go to Zechariah 12 and say don't you believe that Jesus is

36:32

Jehovah? And yet Jehovah is the one who creates the spirits of men So if he was one of the spirits of men, how could

36:37

Jehovah create the spirits of men? And and you don't want to push it so hard that they come up with answers that make no sense

36:44

What you do is you give them an escape route, but it's the escape route to make sure that they remember it you say You know, you may not have an answer for this right now, but could you get back to me on that?

36:54

Could you look that up and we've seen how that works rich and I once many moons ago

37:01

This this missionary that we had this lengthy Core, I you know, I talked to him on the phone

37:06

I forget exactly how I met him, but he started calling me on the phone with questions and stuff like that And so finally one day

37:15

He made it what it was 2662 He kept calling and leaving messages and you picked up the phone.

37:23

Oh, that's what it was. That's right We had this we had 2662 LDS 2662 JWS were phone numbers

37:29

They could call and listen to messages specifically for Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, obviously And I picked up the phone when he was leaving some long rambling probably mocking mock filled

37:42

Response and we ended up having conversations with this guy and talking to him from my home, etc, etc and so What happened was he and his partner?

37:52

tricked the other missionaries in the apartment and got him out of there and Had us come over now missionary apartments are not exactly

38:02

Remember that place man. Remember that couch we sat on. Oh my goodness I thought it was gonna swallow me up and I was never get out of it

38:08

I think there was a chair. There was a chair There were two chairs, of course, it would double as a kitchen chair.

38:14

I think a little tiny maybe two by two kitchen table Yeah, it was it was sparse. But anyway, we go in there and we start talking to these two missionaries

38:22

So it's rich and I sitting on this ratty old couch And then they're sitting on these like folding chairs or something like that and we answer every question that they they throw out

38:31

Provide, you know full responses and stuff and then it just gets silent just just just quiet and I Sort of broke the silence and I said

38:44

Well, and the one mission I've been talking to you've got a picture this in your mind you know what a missionary looks like his white shirt his dark tie and his his

38:52

Elder such -and -so Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints black name tag, right? You've seen it.

38:57

Okay. I'll say so picture this he reaches down. He doesn't say anything. He reaches down.

39:03

He grabs his name tag and Flips it across the room and says you've answered all my questions

39:11

Wow He was sent home he he met with the mission president and he was sent home he didn't finish his mission and And Did I ever hear from again?

39:23

No, I haven't do I hope that that someone has continued that process and obviously I do But that's the unusual situation that's not the regular situation

39:37

One of the one of the first times we were out in Salt Lake City and Mesa Elder Hollywood and I were discussing the

39:44

Adam God doctrine now his name wasn't elder Hollywood But this was one of those young guys. It was really full of himself and He got in my face

39:53

Right there on the on the main corner and he got so angry with me and he was a big tall guy

39:59

He was like six inches taller than I was and he gets in my face and he starts going he says Someday, I'm gonna be a god and you're gonna worship me about that loud and then he just freezes because he realizes he just said that out loud and There are people standing all around just like they've frozen and they're staring at this kid and It embarrassed him so much the next night.

40:24

We ended up having a fairly decent conversation. I gave him some documentation I may have given him some books. I don't recall about ten years later

40:34

This guy comes walking up to me in Salt Lake City and says remember me. I Started looked at him.

40:39

I said elder Hollywood. He laughs. He said yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was no longer an active Mormon Now he wasn't a

40:47

Christian either But he was no longer an active Mormon And so those seeds that you plant you don't know how the

40:54

Lord's going to use those things. And so don't don't underestimate what you're what you're doing when you take that time to Clearly explain something that you you just cannot assume that they actually have ever heard clearly explained to them before it is worth the time and So I'd encourage you to do it.

41:19

All right. Well, thank you very much I hope I didn't take too much time with all those stories, but hopefully it's useful to know. Okay.

41:25

Thanks All right. God bless. Take care Let's talk with Alan real quick in st.

41:30

Louis. Hi Alan. Hey, I found you on YouTube and I really enjoy watching your videos

41:36

And so I thought calling today. I saw your call -in show here. I got a question. I've been really

41:42

Thinking about lately and kind of tossing back and forth in my mind and I was raised in a non -denominational church, you know like a charismatic type church and You know later in life, you know now

41:56

I fully embrace the reformed theology and Classic Christianity, you know in all its forms

42:04

But I mean, I think back to you know, like the people like the pastors and stuff

42:09

I I knew, you know, we're all through youth group and you know my teens and early 20s and stuff and What I've been thinking about and I don't quite know how to deal with it is if someone

42:22

Like especially pastors who are constantly in the Word of God studying for sermons and stuff if they are truly of the elect

42:32

Wouldn't God at some point bring them to a clear understanding of Scripture? Well, you have to be really careful

42:39

I think these guys are so Right on almost everything, you know, and then you think well they believe on absolute healing

42:52

They believe, you know, some, you know, some of these people that I'm talking about they believe in, you know

42:58

Some of these crazy doctrines and I think man if they were really Christians, I wanted the

43:03

Holy Spirit at some point We got to clear understanding you got to be really careful at that point yeah, because that's that is the road that leads reads leads directly into hyper

43:14

Calvinism and Well a hyper Calvinist is primarily a person who

43:23

It's a combination of things but primarily they don't believe in the propriety or necessity of evangelism the proclamation of the gospel and they also go so far as to basically say that all non -Calvinist

43:37

Armenians Are are not saved and they're they're going to be going to hell in essence because they've got a false gospel

43:43

I'm thinking of what's the guy's name? Mark Carpenter Mark Carpenter is a type of person that's a

43:51

Ends up drawing the circle so small that you'd have to stand on one foot to stay inside of yourself So you have to be careful about the perfection of knowledge?

44:01

Theory that in essence says well, you know You need to have a perfect knowledge the gospel to be saved or once you are saved eventually

44:08

You'll have a perfection of knowledge. None of us ever do and we have to leave it to the

44:14

Spirit of God to determine where he's going to bring us in our journey of sanctification and knowledge in this life and so You would you think it's feasible that you know that a person could hold really absurd

44:27

Doctrines like like absolute healing and or you know, like thirty six are gonna get healed or whatever just crazy doctrines like prosperity type stuff and stuff, but still

44:39

You know Who knows you have to you have to leave

44:44

That kind of thing up up to the Lord at that point and I don't know that there's much accomplished In attempting to speculate on these things

44:51

I mean I I will be one of those who's very politically incorrect and will point to that whole realm of things and say the vast majority of these leaders who are who are making buku bucks off of these these people are clearly not

45:07

Christians, they're they're They're they're peddling the Word of God and they're truly not regenerate. But what do you do with the with the little grandmother

45:16

Who trust Jesus to save her but she just doesn't want to believe anybody would ever deceive her

45:22

So if brother Billy Bob says this well brother Billy Bob must be right you know Yeah, you just have to be careful along those lines now, right, you know, so I Think at some point they you know, if you just you know, you would come to clear understanding first like sovereignty

45:40

Well, but there's another reason that there's another reason not to go there the other reason not to go there is that you're assuming that it is the intention of God to Bring every believer in this life to the same point of sanctification if that were the case

45:56

He'd he'd save us all when we were tiny and he would place this Overwhelming desire to be studying the

46:02

Word of God in us that that's all we'd ever do and obviously It's not his intention to have us all in that situation.

46:08

He saved some people toward the very ends of their lives and Why would you do that?

46:14

If it was your intention to always bring everybody to that point? Yeah, but I mean, of course everyone is of the elect is the elect, you know from from eternity true

46:23

But but the point in time the illumination or yeah But yeah But the point in time in which you are brought into a knowledge of that you're regenerated that differs from individual to individual

46:33

I mean, I was very young other people in their teens 20s, whatever whenever it might be. So right. Yeah, it it's

46:39

Interesting to me. I'm just really you know, I've been thinking about it lately man I wonder if this guy's really my brother in the

46:44

Lord Well You know crazy stuff, yeah I knew you of course you couldn't give up, you know, you couldn't you can't give no

46:56

Right, but like I said, I really I just found you on YouTube not too long ago and good. Well, thanks very clear in there

47:02

I really enjoy your videos. So I encourage you to keep keep going on that. I appreciate it Thank you. Thanks for calling in with the encouragement.

47:09

All right. All right. God bless 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 on here's here's what

47:14

I think I'd like to do Mr. Belisario is probably still listening. And so mr Belisario would like to actually discuss something that would be of use an actual argument that I've made against Roman Catholicism That's what

47:26

I'd like to do Lines are open. So mr. Bell. Sorry, I would like to call in and actually discuss an argument that I've made against Roman Catholicism We can discuss my assertion for example that the primary source documents

47:43

That give rise to the Marian dogmas in Roman Catholicism are non -christian

47:49

That that comes into the church from outside from outside we could discuss that we could discuss the assertion that the the

47:57

Bible knows nothing of the exaltation of Mary in the bodily assumption in immaculate

48:04

Conception things like this We can discuss the arguments that I've made concerning the papacy the misunderstanding of Matthew chapter 16

48:13

And the context found therein I we can discuss my assertion that Romans chapter 5

48:19

Indicates that justification is a passive we can discuss Frank Beckwith's Argument that he borrowed from Jimmy Akin and others and Robertson genus that Justification is a process

48:31

Beginning in Genesis 12 then repeats again in Genesis 15 and continues in Genesis 22 We can address

48:39

The meaning of John chapter 6 and this is my body. This is my blood. I have I have put in print since 1990 exegesis of John chapter 6 it demonstrates these things these are the arguments that I have presented in debate and in published format against Roman Catholicism and They are the arguments that Roman Catholic apologists avoid like the plague

49:03

Instead, what do we have member last June? Remember last June. I posted a picture of some

49:10

Muslims in I believe is in Indonesia And remember how Jimmy Akin responded to that?

49:16

look at look at the Catholic answers web boards and Look at the things that they will focus upon.

49:22

They are not the arguments about Authority the papacy the the doctrine of justification

49:32

Transubstantiation Christ is our high priest the issue of the priesthood a priesthood papyri purgatory,

49:39

I've been I wrote to Tim Staples and We've been going back and forth a little bit my emails have been significantly longer than his but Believe it or not.

49:50

He continues to defend the 33 ,000 number. He says oh, it may be a little bit inflated, but not much He puts it between 26 ,000 and 33 ,000.

49:57

I keep asking him Tim explain to me how sola scriptura is responsible for the

50:04

Mormons for the Jehovah's Witnesses for the Gnostics He actually

50:12

Defended the idea well Mormonism arose out of a out of a milieu where it was thick with sola scriptura

50:20

Excuse me What does that have to do with anything? But I wrote to Tim Staples and I said

50:27

Tim you talked about first Corinthians chapter 3 you talked about purgatory Let's discuss it.

50:33

Let's debate this. Well, you know, I just can't I look forward to debating you someday I just can't right now when well, you know really can't talk about that, you know when

50:42

First Corinthians chapter 3 the Roman Catholic Church has abused it has twisted it

50:49

These are the arguments I have put in print They are not

50:55

Passing statements in a Sunday school class on Matthew chapter 23 Based on the reality that you had two major religions in major religious denominations in Germany during World War two and that was the

51:09

Catholics and the Lutheran's I really look forward to debating you someday, but oh my boss is coming.

51:14

I have to go don't tell him I said There does seem when was our last debate with a

51:22

Catholic answers Staffer I'm thinking

51:29

Jimmy Akin, that wasn't a debate It wasn't breakfast at Denny's with Carl Keating.

51:34

It wasn't saying I don't want to debate you anymore cuz maybe in writing

51:40

Yeah, I don't think I don't think I think Madrid had already left Catholic answers before we did the veneration of Saints to ban

51:49

Long Island, so I would guess the last time That a Catholic answers staffer debated me would have been 1993 and Patrick Madrid in San Diego because member

52:05

Jerry was our Jerry left in the early 90s. So it has to be Patrick Madrid and when we went to To Denver in 93, right

52:14

Madrid was already at Steubenville and had been for some time Because he had a group of students

52:20

Then Madrid didn't go stupid. Oh, no. No, that was Scott Hans. Yeah guys No, he was still with Catholic answers because he remembered it was he and Keating that that's right

52:30

We ran into that well, we ran into them in the streets But remember they set up that to beat that that solo scripture debate when they destroyed

52:37

Ron Jackson anemic Yeah for the same night that we were at the Presbyterian Church debating

52:42

Jerry Madison how they just couldn't debate you but once you got locked in Exactly right that was 1993.

52:51

So 1993 was approximately 16 years ago now

52:57

Yeah, 16 years ago is last time Catholic answers staffer did a debate. I'm sorry

53:03

It seems like they have a no debate policy now now now Tim was able to debate

53:08

Steve Gray on Steve Gregg's radio program, but For some reason can't can't find the time

53:16

To defend the publicly made statements is making so I'm saying to mr. Bell. Sorry The phone line is is open right now if you'd like to actually debate

53:29

If you here on the program right now my actual arguments against Roman Catholicism rather than trying to manufacture stuff about a historical observation

53:43

That had nothing to do with an argument Roman Catholicism Which you don't even have the integrity to answer a yes or no question on and simply admit the reality

53:51

Anybody can go back and listen that Sunday school lesson Which I put into I it's it's on the blog because I in fact, that's what

53:58

I did on the program I played that I played the clip. I should have brought it up here. I played the clip from the discussion of what

54:08

Matthew chapter 23 So what I'm saying?

54:14

Mr. Catholic champion, sir is The phone lines are open if you'd like to discuss my real arguments against Roman Catholicism.

54:21

The phone lines are open But I am sick and tired of the way that Roman Catholic apologists behave

54:28

They seem to think that they can go on the air on their in their venues and they can say anything they want

54:35

They will not respond to Refutation they will continually repeat the same errors that other people make

54:43

I started talking about Mark Shea It just seems like he borrowed gerrymatic stuff, which I had refuted in 1995

54:49

He quotes I've taught my head. I don't have anything from right now First Kings 810 says it's the exact same term that Luke uses in Luke 135 and Luke 135

55:00

It's Episcopal in First Kings 810. It is not Episcopal. I pointed that out of gerrymatics in 1995 and here in brand new books just put out 15 almost 15 years later.

55:12

They repeat the same errors. They don't care when they're refuted. They don't care that tells me they don't care about the truth.

55:21

All they care about is serving Rome and Yes that bugs me to no end

55:29

Because you're lying to people about what's in the scriptures and So we've had it open

55:36

Maybe he stopped listening because hey, he took his shot. And so hey, I Don't I don't care about witnessing the

55:43

Mormons or whatever other topics you might be talking about But Pick pick the topic be happy to discuss my real arguments against Roman Catholicism, but I will not waste my time arguing about non arguments

56:00

I Didn't say it as an argument against Roman Catholicism. I said it to point out.

56:05

It wasn't just the atheist youth core I was talking about the fact that You can't look at Matthew 23 anymore since World War two since the

56:17

Holocaust in a lot of European theology without apologizing for the alleged

56:24

Antisemitism of Matthew 23, that's what I was talking about. And that's

56:30

Something that the Lutherans have had to deal with that's something that the Catholics have had to deal with that's the historical reality

56:36

And they what of all the things how many books have I published a Roman Catholicism? How many debates have it done in Roman Catholicism?

56:43

And what does Matthew Belisario want to look at but practicing? Unbelievable if these people were actually taking the time to do meaningful apologetics

56:57

Defending their position in a meaningful way going to depth not having people like Steve Ray on Catholic answers live as if he's an apologetics expert when he doesn't know what he's talking about If they were doing serious apologetics, then maybe

57:12

I could show some respect for them, but they just don't do it and I think

57:19

I have a basis upon which to stay stand and say for a Christian a person who calls itself a

57:24

Christian That's reprehensible reprehensible And you know what

57:30

Sitting right here on my desk right now and you all can affirm it you can see it in here. What do I have? What's the book Stephen K Ray upon this rock?

57:36

What's the book crossing the Tiber Stephen K Ray? What's the book? from Paul to Valentinus Christians at Rome the first two centuries by Peter lamp

57:46

If I'm gonna be talking I was gonna this is stuff that I put in here a few weeks ago I was gonna be talking about Steve Ray.

57:52

I was gonna be reading from his own book talking about Isaiah 22 22 and Where do

57:58

I get my information? I have their stuff firsthand. It's called doing research Do they do that?

58:05

No, they don't do that. And that says everything to me about the modern Roman Catholic apologetics community

58:12

So mr. Bell, sorry. I want you to send me an email. I Gave you a whole list of things there.

58:18

They've a whole list of things Can't do it next Tuesday because I'm doing the unbelievable radio program But let's find a time to have you on Let's do purgatory.

58:27

Let's do the papacy. Let's have you on Matthew. Let's actually address something. I've published on the subject How does that sound?

58:33

Let's actually have a real meaningful conversation rather than this silliness that marks the Roman Catholic apologetics community

58:39

We'll let you know what it's gonna happen here on the dividing line. Thanks for listening. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.

59:44

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59:51

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