William Lane Craig: False Teachers?

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white Thank you. Morning. Welcome to the dividing line just a programming notes on Thursday since I will be teaching

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For Golden Gate Thursday evening and tonight and last night for that matter four hours and 45 minutes worth each evening

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We will be doing the dividing line at the normal Tuesday time on Thursday we'll have to do a morning version came to the afternoon version because I Need to be out there 15 minutes after the program ends and it's 24 miles from here

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So that's not really gonna happen. So we will do it in the morning on Thursday make a note of that all of you who complain wine and so on so forth

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Will undoubtedly complain and whine anyway, but that's just just the way it goes 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 let's

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I Want to go back to the William Lane Craig discussion on Roman Catholicism We didn't finish it because I wanted to sneak that Patrick Madrid clip in but last evening in the classes

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I was introducing the issue of apologetic methodologies and how we evaluate them and and in essence demonstrating once again that theology matters that an apologetic

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Methodology is based upon the theology that you're seeking to defend and therefore if you have

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Primarily a viewpoint that is the same as Rome's you're going to use one kind of apologetic methodology if you have a biblical perspective, you're going to use another and So I wanted to pick up with some of the comments again from William Lane Craig We didn't finish them last time we listened to a part of this, but we sort of stopped in the middle of it

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So to properly attribute context Let's pick it up from there

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Kevin just what by the way, what is it that? Distinguishes you and me.

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What do you guys believe they want to know what the differences are? Where do you think in opportunities like that?

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Where should we go the first two? Justification is that yes, I think that's the bottom line really

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Kevin. I mean other things such as church government or the sacraments or other sorts of doctrines are important, but really at the heart of it is going to be justification because Justification by grace alone through faith.

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I think is the central Protestant insight and I think it's a biblical insight and Therefore that's something

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I think that we need to insist upon now what I find in talking to Catholic friends is that their understanding of the doctrine of Justification at Trent is really the same as mine.

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They don't think that they earn salvation They don't think that they perform meritorious works that are in salvation the way they interpret it is that God By his grace gives me the power to live a good life and therefore

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I Go to heaven and it's all due to God's grace. It's now is that what what

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Trent taught? No, it is not but basically what he's saying is they're not actually good Roman Catholics But in the same time he's saying well, they agree with me and given his prevenient grace perspective in a sense.

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They they do He's on the same page that is by Prevenient grace.

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Dr. Craig believes were given the ability to believe and in the same way they believe that by this grace, they're given the ability to do good works and Evidently what he's saying is well, not all of them think that those good works are meritorious and merit eternal life

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But what does it really matter? The point is you have this grace and you do things by this grace and it puts you in charge

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Of course of final salvation But when you hear people saying oh, but you know, I talked to Catholics and and We believe the same things

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Very very troubling to hear that kind of language it does not show a real understanding of Roman Catholicism and One of the reasons

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I wanted to finish this clip up is because at the end they talk about the Marian dogmas And if you really want to hear

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Some misunderstanding of where Rome is that's that's where you're gonna hear. It's wholly by grace alone

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So the the the line of distinction becomes very blurred or very fine and I think that in many cases

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Practicing Catholics may not be much different than Protestants. Do you see what

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I mean? They there may be these counsel conciliar statements on paper

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But the way is certain born -again Catholics Really live and what they really believe may be much closer to What Protestants think than what these conciliar statements literally say?

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So they're not really Roman Catholics and that's maybe is why they're born again I don't even get the idea that he would think that a consistent

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Catholic who truly believes in The tridentine definitions is not born -again

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It's really hard to see exactly where this is going it seems to me that Trent's definitions do not in fact

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Violate the gospel sufficiently to say that Rome has a false gospel Protestants are often drawn to the beauty reverence and the high church

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Style of the Catholic Church, and they think well, maybe we're a little too loosey -goosey in ours

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And they're they're drawn to sure that from time to time We still need to look at Doctrine we still

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I think so Kevin. That's the bottom line. I mean I am tremendously attracted to this great tradition this great historic

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Catholic tradition and to the great thinkers that have graced that church and to the

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Which parts of this tradition are we talking about you know the great thinkers is probably Aquinas and people like that Though he's probably just simply you know granting

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Rome's historical claims on all those those grounds but do we include at the same time period the the

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Inquisitions do we include the The the hammer against witches do we include the pornography you know which which it's so easy

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You know people got really upset with me when I was in Italy And I had visited the

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Vatican, and I and I had I had said I don't find this to be beautiful I'm sorry now lots of marble and gold but It's it's what it means

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That I see it's it's what it is Representing it's it's what it's the the the fleecing of the flock and the false

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Doctrine that built this place that that I see I just don't find that to be beautiful And yet there are many

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Protestants who just ignore that part well you know we just we just pick out the best and and we ignore the reality of all the rest and That's very very attractive.

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I I I've I know people feel that way I certainly have not one of the beauty of the

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Worship service of the the ceremonies the buildings and so worth what is what is beautiful?

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About a priest holding up the the host and saying hocus corpus ma 'am or whatever language you would do it in now

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What is beautiful about that if you know what it represents if you know that it produces a a non

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Saving sacrifice of Christ. How is that beautiful? I don't Understand I do find all of that very attractive and so I can understand people who would

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Want to be Catholic because of those things but ultimately it does get down to doctrine and if you can't in good conscience subscribe to the doctrine then

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I think you shouldn't be a Catholic and similarly I Couldn't be a

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Presbyterian or an Anglican or an Episcopalian because I just don't believe

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The doctrines that these denominations teach and once again, there's that parallel I mentioned it last time but there's that parallel same difference between dr.

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Craig and a Presbyterian is between dr Craig and a Catholic Though I don't really know that the distance is quite the same to be perfectly honest with you given this the soteriological issues and so even though I may be very attracted to them in other ways,

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I I couldn't be a member of that Denomination and so ultimately

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I think we if we're not going to be religious hypocrites We have to ask ourselves. Can I in good conscience?

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believe the things that in this case the Catholic Church Stands for and I find myself over and over again saying well,

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I can't really affirm that in good conscience doctor There's a vast difference between I can't affirm that in good conscience and saying that is simply false doctrine

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That is false teaching. Here's a section on Mary Craig The Virgin Mary is a real sticking point as well between Catholics and Protestants Probably a lot of misunderstanding there as to her status.

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There was a move a while back to really elevate Mary Almost to the equality with Christ co -redemptrix

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I don't think that ever got off the ground in the Catholic Church, but there was a move there That was very distressing to Protestants as well who see

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Catholics as worshiping Mary a human being and By the way, it didn't get off the ground seven million petitions it remains a a vital effort

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I was reading a Article just this week on the subject. It didn't get off the what what

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I don't even know what that means What do you mean? It didn't get off the ground Popes have taught this as doctrine not dogma

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Difference between the two the popes have taught this for over a hundred years John Paul the second used that terminology over and over again, but it didn't get off the ground

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I think what he's probably trying to say is it has not been made the you know The fifth Marian dogma has not been defined as yet But to say it just didn't get off the ground

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Again, I I don't I don't get the feeling that there's a lot of One -on -one interaction with with primary sources in Roman Catholicism going on here

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Catholics resist that Vigorously say we do not worship Mary She is honored

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But she is not the subject of worship and Here you have yeah, how about responding to that?

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How about? Saying that the distinction that is made between lottery and Julia and hyper Julia is unbiblical that would that would be very helpful

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At this point but one of these situations where again the doctrine seems to be right, but the

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Practice in many cases does seem to verge on idolatry. It's the doctrine may be right

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Excuse me Rome's doctor Dogmatically defining the

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Immaculate conception and the bodily assumption of Mary and the perpetual virginity of Mary that that And and making these dogmas that you have to believe to be a

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Christian the doctrine may be right I sure hope that he just misspoke there and what he was actually saying as well

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The doctrine that they're not worshiping Mary may be right, but even that is is giving the most positive spin

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As he said himself is going to admit here when he looks at the practice, it's distressing for a

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Protestant to go into a Cathedral or a church and see the altar to Mary ablaze with a forest of candles and another altar where Jesus Is pictured has hardly any?

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Candles in front of it where prayers are offered. It does seem in Practice many times a kind of Mary Allah tree

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Does well yeah in Mexico? There's there's that kind of an image of a very rigorous

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Vigorous Mary exalted arms outstretched very much alive, but then their crucifix has the crucified beaten

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Savior and so Jesus is not seen as Vigorous and alive as Mary just in the statuary and so on right and for the average peasant so often it will be

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Mary that he approaches in prayer and seeks help and Succor from instead of Christ, and she really does in again practice.

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I think preempt the role of Christ and Does she not parallel Christ in the dogmatic?

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Definitions of the Roman Catholic Church the answer is yes, why?

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Why avoid saying this outside of simple political correctness? So this would be kind of the mirror image of what

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I was saying before where sometimes practicing Catholics attitude toward justification is better Than the doctrine in this case

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I think the doctrine is better than the practice many times the Doctrine of the church is very clear that it doesn't worship

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Mary or think of her as on a par with Jesus But in popular

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Catholic piety sometimes it seems that that line is crossed I'm sorry, but the it is the theology that has produced the piety in this case.

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Let's Why not discuss these dogmatic definitions the exaltation of Mary and the immaculate conception the bodily assumption?

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I just this this isn't Craig's field And and he's just he's not dealing with with the reality of Roman theology very well here in conclusion today

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Dr. Craig if you were to sit down Have coffee with a person of the Catholic faith.

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What would be your approach with them? What would you want to know find out? I'd want to know whether or not that person has a vital relationship with Christ or whether or not this person has simply been raised in the church and This is a kind of proforma religion that hasn't really resulted in a regenerate heart and that may be difficult to Discern but I do think that that's the bottom line

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Catholics that I've talked to that are clearly born again Believers will readily say the

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Catholic Church needs to be evangelized how have they been born again evidently again a gospel

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Mediated by sacraments founded upon incomplete sacrifice dependent upon human works dependent upon sacerdotal forgiveness a gospel including purgatory and indulgences all that it can still save It can still save that that's the position being taken

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I don't see how you can listen to it any other way and they will admit this Right from the beginning that that the church is in need of evangelization

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And so I think that's the most important thing to try to discern is whether this person We're speaking with is someone who really knows

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Christ and is a regenerate Christian or not if not, then we want to try to help that person to make that commitment and move the knowledge from the head to the heart and undoubtedly remain in Rome Remain in those doctrines remain in those teachings not to flee from Rome there again

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I don't think we've ever heard it quite so clearly. I I discerned this from his theology and apologetics, but there you have about as clearly as it can be expressed this

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Capitulation to to Rome and to its Just being another denomination.

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We've got some differences, but you know I mean that justification things important but what is justification by faith truly based upon solo scriptura was never mentioned the the

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Outrageous abuses of the papacy never mentioned and the Marian dogma is not understood transubstantiation never comes in Well, there you go, that's that's what we face today eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and Our first caller is on that subject.

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Let's talk with Patrick. Hi Patrick Hello, dr. White, how are you? I'm doing well.

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How are you good? Yeah, I have a I have a comment to make that I'm not sure if you're you're aware of a statement

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That was made by mr. William Lane Craig during the Hitchens debate Haven't someone sent me the

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DVD to our post office box, so I haven't I haven't seen it yet. Well. It's really interesting during the cross -exam

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Hitchens actually seemed to recognize Several of the points that that you've discussed and in the last few episodes of the dividing line and he recognized the materialist nature of his apologetic and the disconnect from the theology

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So one of the questions that he asked dr. Craig Was um well is there such thing as a false gospel is there such thing as heresy?

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to which Mr. Craig responded yes, and Hitchens asked him to identify that and He of course what does he say?

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It's Calvinism. He identified the example of heresy As being

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Calvinism. I was wondering if that was something you were aware of No, I'm sitting here with my mouth hanging over It was quite shocking, and I hadn't heard anybody really comment.

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I think it's sort of flipped under the radar Wow, but I found that I found that fairly well.

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I'm gonna be sending somebody to the post office box ASAP to get that because It was like I said it was sent by a good old bow over in California So I I need to get that and believe you me

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If we can get that and I can find it I will I will certainly play it on on the dividing line on Thursday, but Just shocking just just unbelievable

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I really want to hear that and I appreciate your letting me know about it because if that doesn't

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Tell you where? William Lane Craig is coming from and that whole group the whole Geisler Craig group.

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I don't know what will Absolutely, I was absolutely shocked the same as you

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I almost didn't know what to say Of all things and I also found it interesting that an atheist would recognize

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These the lacking it of a theological basis. I've got admit

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Hitchens surprised me. I played that clip where he was debating Frank Turek who is sort of Norman Geisler's understudy and He quite appropriately recognized that in Turek's presentation he had jumped from deism to Christian theism without providing any foundation for so doing and The fact that he can do that through an alcohol -induced.

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Haze Really says a lot for how intelligent the man is or maybe that's just the way his mind works best

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I don't know but but I don't know about you But every time I see a plastic cup on up on the podium that ain't water in there and that's not

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Gatorade either I can assure you so I was really surprised that he was able to do that and It just makes you go

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Obviously the man is is intellectually brilliant and yet he's obviously

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Spiritually tortured and it is so sad To see that it just makes you it makes your heart break to see someone in a situation like that And you just you wonder sometimes given how much truth he's been exposed to Just how what a tortured soul he must be and so but yeah,

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I'm actually not surprised That Hitchens would would recognize that and and would to go there

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I can't wait to get a hold of the debate now so we can we can play that portion Well, you know,

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I don't know how helpful it is to atheists to debate Islam apologists and then to debate a

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Christian apologist and they're using the same apologetics. Yeah Yeah, well,

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I Think we see over and over again and I I didn't you know want to try to start, you know, the drumbeat

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But it has to be done Theology matters and it determines your apologetic and to to debate these folks and You know, we've seen it with Shabir Ali we were amazed at some of the comments that Where where Craig would not step up to the plate and defend basic fundamental?

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Biblical doctrines in debates with Shabir Ali and you're just left going why well because he's theologically compromised

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At a foundational level actually someone's going to get to get the DVD right now

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Rich just sent very often To get the

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DVD I ain't gonna get it in time for the program But we will definitely get it so I can track that down and get the audio

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Recorded and and get it ready because I definitely want to listen to To that you say it's during the cross -examination portion.

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Yes, absolutely All right, so I just wanted to make the body of Christ aware of that and I really enjoy your show

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Okay. Thanks lover Colin. All right I think that things going on the iPod shuffle.

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Let me tell you that and I'll be listening to that Lord willing tomorrow morning if I can get the

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DVD quick enough to get it burned and the audio ripped and throw it up on the on the shuffle so that my ride tomorrow

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I can I can get that caught up on that because I had not heard that and What what an amazing thing?

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What an amazing thing? Ah those born -again Catholics Trent we just need to treat this a little bit but those

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Calvinist man there there's heresy for you There's false gospel the absolute

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Exaltation of the autonomous will of man to the position of deity. We will not have a free

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God We will have a free man. That is the essence of false religion itself folks

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That's that's just all there is to it. Oh my back I have a clip here of Patrick Madrid talking about Calvinism if we really want to be

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Get thrown off the cliff today But well, we'll take our our calls first and and go from there.

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Let's talk with Joshua. Hi, Joshua Yes, sir, yeah

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I would like to see if you could give that short presentation of the

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Jehovah's Witnesses doctrines in their own words. You referred to it probably about a month ago, but um, you didn't like it

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Specifically give it. I was wondering It was possible within time constraints to do that yeah, well what

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I was referring to is Generally what I do when I meet with Jehovah's Witnesses and I had met with some with a witness elder a couple months ago on a

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Forget what day it was. But anyway, we got together and what I like to do is I like to Start off by just telling them straight up front what

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I do, you know, I teach these classes. I cover these subjects Normally, that's enough to cause most

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Jehovah's Witnesses to head for the door So before they start zipping up their book bags and heading for the door

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What I try to do is is say well, let me um Let me summarize for you my understanding of where you're coming from and then you can you can tell me if I've missed anything and we can use that as a foundation for our discussion and That really gets their attention.

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They are interested when someone wants to give a summary of their own faith and This is basically what

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I said to the elder what I've said to other elders in the past I said now my understanding is that you believe that there is one true

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God Jehovah that he is eternal and Unchanging and that his name is very important to know and to use he has revealed himself in Scripture as Jehovah In fact, sometimes

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I'll include a little discussion the Tetragrammaton at that point because that name is very very important to them And they're very surprised when

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Christians know the name many Jehovah's Witnesses think that we don't know the name of Jehovah never use the name of Jehovah, etc, etc, and then

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I'll say his first and greatest created thing is Michael the Archangel in fact,

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Michael is the The one through whom all other things are made.

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He's the master worker And in fact, Michael is the only direct creation of Jehovah God It is only through Michael that all other things have been created

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And of course Michael then becomes the man Jesus Christ and the man

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Jesus Christ is is a man who as Jehovah's Witnesses believe does not have a spirit in the sense of some other component spiritual component

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But that we are we possess a soul that soul simply is the life force within us.

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It is not something that survives death as as an Disembodied spiritual essence or anything along those lines and this one

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Michael is the one who became Jesus of Nazareth who gave his life on a torture stake as a corresponding ransom for the sins of Adam and that he is one of the hundred and forty four thousand two hundred and forty four thousand are those who will be with Jehovah in heaven and Jesus is one of that anointed class

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The the rest of God's faithful servants are known as the great crowd who have what's called not a heavenly

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Hope is 144 ,000 have but have an earthly hope they hope to live in a paradise earth

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Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Bible teaches that God created the earth to be inhabited and therefore after it is cleansed that this will be the place where the great crowd will live and That's those who are in heaven are in the new covenants of the anointed class or in the new covenant and that those who live on the earth the great crowd

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Receive the benefits of that new covenant only in and through their following and their fellowship with the anointed class and so they look to the anointed class as the ones who through whom

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Jehovah's benefits are flowing to them and I also add the fact that once a year the the witnesses gather together for the

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Memorial Supper and during that Memorial Supper You will have the the elements passed around the room and remembrance of Jesus And yet in the vast majority of congregations

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No one will partake the only ones who do partake are those who claim to be of the heavenly class the anointed class

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And that by partaking they are demonstrating they are part of the new covenant but all others in the great crowd pass the elements by because they are not a part of the new covenant and That's a day is coming when

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Armageddon will take place The faithful will be removed from the earth God's wrath will fall upon the earth those who have not followed

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Jehovah's ways will be destroyed then a millennium is ushered in where those who have died before this time period are resurrected and They are taught the ways of God This is not a resurrection suddenly, but a resurrection over time the servants of God to teach them the ways of Jehovah and at the end of that time there is a test and even the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses who are on earth at that time will be tested and Those who do not pass the test of faithfulness

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Will be destroyed. There is no conscious punishment for sin. There is simply destruction annihilation and Those who pass the test will live forever in paradise on earth

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Even though the option is held open that if ever a time should happen where evil is found amongst anyone on paradise earth

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They will be very quickly destroyed so that evil does not spread. So This is the the general outline of of things.

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I say that Jehovah's Witnesses are a very People very focused upon evangelism very focused upon going door -to -door as they believe in obedience

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To commands of Scripture and that there is one organization that speaks for Jehovah today

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The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is centered in Brooklyn, New York Directed by the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses The faithful and discreet slave that gives meat and due season to the members of the household and that one only finds true

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Spiritual nourishment by listening to what is given to them by the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses and at that point the first question is asked of me is how long were you one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I say

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I have never been associated in any way shape or form with Watchtower Bible and Tract Society I normally say that before I give the summary and say that I have

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Learned this by reading Watchtower literature and by dialoguing with many Jehovah's Witnesses Okay, well there you go, hopefully that's useful to you

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Alright, thanks a lot. Thanks for calling eight seven seven seven five three three three four one We're gonna take our break take your phone calls if you'd like to jump in and continue right after this break

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Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

34:55

Thank you And welcome back to the dividing line

35:04

No one called all the very babies called I think they're a little bit scared because you know when you take the time to say hey this well -known the non -catholic

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Speaker is just really way off the beam when it comes to the defining issues of the gospel

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And you know what that's exactly what they say about me. You want to know why there's so many places

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You know people say well I wonder why that church hasn't had you well because I'm a mean terrible horrible Radical person who's way off out in the woods someplace because I actually think the gospel of Jesus Christ defines the

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Christian Faith, I mean, I've even debated I debated Doug Wilson on that subject. Did I not?

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It was not my point in that debate that the gospel defines the Christian faith and without the gospel

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What is this mere Christianity stuff? Anyways? This mere Christianity stuff is just mere theology stuff without the soteriology stuff

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It's you know, there's too many. There's too much disagreement on this this gospel stuff

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So if we want to have unity We need to create unity out of something that we can come up with unity on and so, you know

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This the Trinity is enough. We can just do that. We don't need we don't need to worry about what the Trinity's done

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In time and space, but as long as we all just agree on the Trinity Then we're all good Christians and I just go, you know

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I'm not sure that I can defend that kind of system and and honestly Though I would probably be considerably more popular and get a lot more speaking engagements

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I I couldn't do that Couldn't look at myself in the mirror because I keep thinking about all those Bible passages that clearly

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I was not Obeying and so on and so forth, but be that as it may. I mentioned if we really want to jump off the cliff today

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I should have played the radio free Geneva Theme this morning because it sort of seems like that's where we're going

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I have here a clip where Patrick Madrid discusses Calvinism and It is interesting to me.

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I've noted that in reading Frank Beckwith's book That when even though the churches he was involved with Four square charismatic,

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I think there was an assemblies of God in there and Episcopalian Church Just all over the map as far as the churches he was involved with which to me is always a major red flag, you know you know somebody was asking me recently about a person known in apologetic circles and one of the things

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I responded by saying was yeah, well Yes, I've heard that person and that person has left a long line of broken churches in his wake

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It's rarely a part of any one church for more than just a few years at a time before there's splits and Controversies and everything else and I just think that says a lot.

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I Really do think that says a lot and a lot of people Disagree, but that's where I'm coming from and so Anyway, I Just you you listen to what these folks are saying and you you you see the the fundamental perspective.

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They're coming from anyways, I want to play this clip before we get too far and Like I said, the phone lines were open eight seven seven seven five three two three four one.

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Here's Patrick Madrid. He's talking about Calvinism and What I was saying, I'm just caught

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I just came came on the corner and rejoined them went out in the fields I just found the found the path again

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When Beckwith though, he was not reformed starts responding to the strongest arguments he can think of who's he responding to Reformed arguments.

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He's not respond to the arguments that the church is he was a part of made why because they didn't make

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Arguments against Roman Catholicism. That's why I Mean you want to go back and find the people who have have provided the the strongest arguments and they're not going to be the the wishy -washy

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Armenians Even though the wishy -washy Armenians might be the ones who produce a lot of the worst arguments against Rome in the sense of you know

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Jack chick style comic book attacks on Rome the serious responses, especially the defenses of solo scriptura

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Do not come from that area They come from the Reformed folks And so it is interesting to me to hear how many times on these

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Roman Catholic radio programs and webcasts the question is about a

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Catholic who's run into a Calvinist and It's fascinating to listen to the advice

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That is given by the Catholic apologists on how to handle these Calvinists now.

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This doesn't get into a whole lot of depth I'm not sure I'm gonna play the whole thing because basically he says we'll just go get a father most book and Just use that in essence is what he says

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But it is interesting to just listen to the mindset that goes into this. So let's let's take a listen to this and and Sort of tie it in with what we were listening to earlier with William Lane Craig.

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I have been talking with a friend who is Calvinist and We've been having a big discussion we decided to start our sort of apologetics debate on salvation and specifically

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Predestination and so I kind of would like some coaching, you know, just give me some we've been talking

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The verse I guess that's kind of got me stunned. I don't know how to answer her is at 223 where it talks about how

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God And How they how Jesus was delivered up to them to a plan that God set up and so I'm wondering how her big point of predestination that I think we have the biggest disagreement is

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That certain people are predestined for hell that God created them to be damned and that they have no chance of salvation ever

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Yeah, you've just identified the the great error. It's a monstrous error, by the way of Calvinism and that is the this incorrect notion of double predestination

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That God predestined certain people to heaven that part is true. Of course, that's Amply taught by st.

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Paul and Romans chapters 8 and 9 for example But the error is to say that God predestined certain people to hell in the sense that he creates them solely for this for Reprobation solely for damnation now there are certain verses for example as I mentioned a moment ago in Romans chapter 8 and 9 that will be invoked as a way to Try to prop up this theory, but it's simply false.

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God does not damn certain people to hell without any opportunity for them to be saved that completely flies in the face of So many passages in sacred scripture.

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There's now where have we heard that before? Where have we heard that exact kind of presentation before in almost the exact same language

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I'll give you a second because I I want to bring this up here Because I just posted this and I guess we haven't have we not

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We haven't been getting much in the way of hate mail for my my Dave Hunt article

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No, wow, that's that's amazing. That's that's the case, but I was listening to listen listen to Dave Hunt's response.

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Let's let's tie this in here How many times have we been able to pair up Dave Hunt in Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid and and why?

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because William Lane Craig Dave Hunt Patrick Madrid and Carl Keating are all on the same page

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When it comes to the nature of grace and nature of man It our minion ism is a return to Rome.

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That's that's that's what you know John Owens said that a long time ago This is interesting the

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June 2009 marine call newsletter question on the last night of the Tulsa prophecy conference

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Well, I bet you that was interesting. I Don't get too many invitations to them there then there are prophecy conferences, but On the last night of the

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Tulsa prophecy conference during the Q &A session a question was directed to Dave Hunt that related to Calvinism I wonder why that happened.

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He stated that election predestination were never unto salvation, but unto service

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Now as I said, I put the article up on the web page. I think it appeared Monday morning and I talked about how many times

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Dave Hunt has been corrected on this he refuses to be corrected Dave Hunt is one of those folks.

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I've become absolutely convinced who is so Enslaved by his tradition that he thinks his tradition is the

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Word of God therefore to question any of his tradition is to question the Word of God, so he's beyond correction. There's no one in Dave's life who can come up to him and say

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Dave you're wrong you missed the boat So he just keeps repeating the same tired canards over and over and over again, but we continue

44:23

Mike Gendron responded by reading 2nd Thessalonians 2 13 God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification the spirit and belief of the truth

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Doesn't that sound like God has chosen certain ones to be saved which of course would mean that the rest are chosen to damnation by default now again the

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It it is helpful You know I'm not sure how this question was asked or if that's exactly how the question was sent in I have no idea

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But the reality is that once again as we have mentioned over and over and over again

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We are not talking about an absolute parallel between the decree of salvation the decree of reprobation it does not take a positive act of grace for God to cause a

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Person to remain in their sin or anything along those lines and so there needs to be a recognition of the distinction

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Between the decree of predestination and that of reprobation they are not parallel.

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They're not the same thing and Patrick Madrid was wrong to think well, okay. I'll put it this way if someone thinks that the decree of reprobation

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Somehow forces an innocent person to be evil then that would be correct that would be an error

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But if the reality is that what is being said?

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That the decree of reprobation Ensures that a person will be lost bring it in here bring it in here

45:59

Then that is of course a certain not because they don't Quote -unquote have a chance, but because the issue isn't chance the issue is

46:08

Their own their own will guess what I have my hands folks. Thank You Barry. Mr..

46:13

Barry Mr.. Barry pericope laden Ran Off to the to the

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Post office box And I have in my hand Does God exist debate

46:30

William Lane Craig versus Christopher Hitchens? How's that? I'm not even gonna ask whether whether brother laden obeyed all of the

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Romans 13 Oh There's there's just now the police are pulling into the parking lot no comment

46:53

Nothing to say that whatsoever, please talk to my attorney. It's not there anymore. He turned you off No comment at all yeah,

47:02

I see all the police cars lined up behind the Prius. I'm not sure how the Prius outran all those police cars, but Anyways, let me see here.

47:11

Let's let's let's see we can do this here. This is called live Live let's see if Nero Showtime will will pull this thing up for me here, and let's see what we can pull up Hey, you might as well take a look at it's the same topic

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We were listening to Patrick Madrid talk about the monstrous error of Calvinism, so let's see if William Lane Craig Does the same thing now

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I have always had some interesting? Experiences with this particular unit

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Let's see Let's see chapter select. Let's see we can come up here cross -examination

47:49

Hitchens Well is it Craig asking or Hitchens asking yeah, but when it says

47:57

Craig is he being cross -examined Let's find out let's let's

48:03

We now enter the period of cross -examination which trial like allows the questioner oh

48:10

It's you do it and the answer only to answer shock me too much question or to dodge Six minutes of questions begin to dr.

48:18

Craig followed by six questions six minutes of questions to mr. Hitchens dr. Craig you're all right Let's skip over chickens your questions for don't go correct.

48:25

Ah well. Oh, he looks terrible first you said The the the career of Jesus of Nazareth involved the ministry of miracles and exorcisms

48:37

When you say exorcism do you mean that you believe in devils too? What I meant there was that most historians agree that Jesus of Nazareth Practiced miracle working and he practiced exorcisms

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I'm not committing myself nor are historians committing themselves to the reality of demons

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But they are saying that Jesus just did practice Question oh my goodness, so you believe that Jesus of Nazareth caused devils to leave the body of a madman and go into a flock of pigs

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The whole themselves Yes, yeah, I believe that that's historical yes, right all right that would be sorcery wouldn't it though no

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No, it would be an illustration of Jesus ability to command even the forces of darkness and therefore an illustration of the sort of divine authority that he was a sound like a

49:34

Calvinist a concept as I say is illustrative of this unprecedented sense of divine authority that Jesus of Nazareth Had that he even could command the forces of darkness and that they was a high quality video folks

49:49

Whether you think he was a professional or genuine exorcist or that he merely believed himself looks like about five or six cameras

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What is historically undeniable is that he had this? radical sense of divine authority which he expressed by Miracle working and exorcisms right and you and you believe he was born of a virgin

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Yes, I believe that as a Christian I couldn't claim to prove that historically that's not part of my case tonight

50:17

But I as a Christian I believe that and I know you believe in the resurrection, but As a matter of biblical what should we call it

50:29

Consistency I mean it's said in one of the Gospels that at the time of the crucifixion all the graves in Jerusalem were opened

50:34

It does not say all the tenants of the grave that does not it does not say that it does not say Sandra are there a common prayer to Jerusalem area it's a that's in the gospel of Matthew And that's actually attached to a crucifixion

50:46

Narrative that's what it says at the time of the crucifixion. Yes, that's right at the time of the crucifixion It says that there were appearances of Old Testament Saints in the sale testament saying time this is part of Matthew doesn't say that they're recognized in Jerusalem How could you recognize

51:00

Jerusalem, but they had not just recently died I don't know what Matthew intends this to be apocalyptic imagery or whether he means this to be taken literally

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I'm I've not studied it in any depth, and I'm open -minded about it. I'm I'm willing to be I'm open -minded about it

51:15

Because I mean we know from Scripture that the Pharaohs the magicians could produce miracles In the end

51:21

Aaron could outproduce them But I'm saying what I'm suggesting to you is even if the laws of nature can be suspended and great

51:27

Great miracles can be performed. It doesn't prove the truth of the doctrine of the person who's performing them

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Would you not agree to that necessarily? I think that's right So somebody could be casting out devils from pigs and that wouldn't prove he was the

51:42

Son of God. I think that's right in fact there were Jewish exorcists the only point that I was trying to make there was that this was illustrative of the kind of Divine authority that Jesus claimed especially since he didn't cast them out in God's name

51:57

We didn't perform miracles by praying to God. He would do them in his own authority so that Jesus exercised an authority that was simply unheard of at that time and For which he was eventually crucified because it was thought to be blasphemous

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Well, it was thought to be blasphemous to claim to be the Messiah to be exact I mean the people who got the closest look at him the

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Jewish Sanhedrin would thought that he his claims were not genuine So remember if you're resting anything on eyewitnesses the ones who we definitely know were there.

52:28

I thought he was bogus But okay, I think I've got a rough idea Assuming you make that assumption of his pre -existing divinity that it's a pre substitution list case

52:39

I can see what you're driving How many religions in the world do you believe to be false

52:46

No, hold on because we're about to get there. Did you catch that? That's what I get run over He says sort of a pre suppositionalist and Craig Over -talked him to make sure that he made the statement.

52:57

I am NOT a priest Yeah, well we know that that's for sure how many religions in the world there are

53:10

I'll see if I can't narrow that down That was a clumsily asked question. I admit do you do you regard any of the world's religions?

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Excuse me. Do you regard any of the world's religions to be false preaching? Yes. Yes, I think yeah, certainly Would you name one that Islam?

53:27

That's quite a lot Pardon me. That's quite a lot. Yes. Do you therefore do you think it's moral to preach false religion?

53:34

No, so religion is responsible for quite a lot of wickedness in the world right there. Certainly, right? I'd be happy to concede that I would agree with that So if I was to be if I was a baby being born in Saudi Arabia today, you should see the camera on this bridge

53:46

It's awesome. Oh, well, Holly. It's incredible. What would I be? Would you rather it was me it was a good atheist baby or the

53:55

Wahhabi, baby Have any preferences

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As as bad as that, okay Are there any other any

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I must I'm sorry I must go a few seconds. It's a serious question I shouldn't squander it. Are there any

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Christian denominations you regard as false? Certainly, could I know what they are? Well, I am

54:32

NOT a Calvinist for example, I think that Certain tenets of reformed theology are incorrect.

54:39

I would be More in the Wesleyan camp myself, but these are differences among brethren.

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These are not differences On which we need to put one another in some sort of a cage.

54:52

So within the Christian camp There's a large diversity of perspectives. I'm sure their views that I hold that are probably false

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But I'm trying my best to get my theology straight trying to do the best job

55:05

But I think all of us would recognize that none of us agree on every point of Christian doctrine on on every

55:12

Dot and tittle before mr. Hinton succeeds in launching another series of religious wars among Christians Okay, well, all right, so I'm not certain that That what he said there was

55:35

Obviously Craig looked and I'm watching this Craig looked exceptionally uncomfortable with that line of questioning and it's right at the end and He says are there any

55:49

Christians? Was it teaching falsehood? Is that what he said? And he sat there and he sort of thought well,

55:55

I'm not a Calvinist Well, okay. Why don't just come out and say well Calvinism But then he tries to soften that by saying but you know, you know, this is this is an in -house fight we're all

56:06

Christians and It just amazes me that When you think about it

56:13

What William Lane Craig is saying is? you can have a religion that says that men

56:23

Who are called an altar Christus another Christ have the sacramental power to bring

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Jesus down from heaven and render him present upon an altar over And over and over again as a perpetuatory sacrifice, but one that never perfects you can have a religion that adds to the gospel the concept of the bodily assumption of Mary the immaculate conception of Mary the perpetual virginity of Mary you can have a religion that holds over its people the specter of purgatory and the

56:55

Concept of indulgences and builds its greatest monuments on the backs of people paying their money to get out of these false doctrines and William Lane Craig doesn't think of that as the first instance of false teaching the first instance of false teaching

57:11

It's Calvinism Calvinism Spurgeon Edwards Warfield Hodge Sproul, that's the first thing in his mind

57:24

Not the long history of Roman Catholic teaching and that Explains the fact that theology matters

57:38

That's what explains the difference when you stand before even an atheist and say well

57:44

I'm gonna prove that the the preponderance of the evidence points the greater probability existence of a god and You call that Christianity over against the

57:55

Reformed person who stands before the atheist and says outside of the existence of the

58:01

Christian God We can't even explain our debate this evening The Christian God must exist and does exist and you as the creature are in no position to judge his existence

58:13

Why those two very different approaches because of the theology that under lies them both

58:19

Thank You Patrick. Thank you Barry Amazing that we got that in before the end of the program that That's fantastic Remember Thursday morning regular morning time not the afternoon time for the dividing line.

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