How Long Will It Be Before the First Megachurch Pastor AI-Sermon Scandal?

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Instead of committing a lot of time to studying the Bible for yourself week in and week out to be prepared

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For a sunday morning or sunday evening or wednesday night or whatever uh when you're just when you're you know

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Putting that on like a research group or you're putting that on a robot To do it for you and then blind and especially like you're blindly trusting it

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All right, tim the question for today's episode is how long will it be before the first megachurch pastor ai sermon scandal well, i'm

00:51

I have no idea I think it doesn't get open to the episode.

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Here's the title question I mean, I I would not be surprised if many of them are not already getting their sermons from ai

01:08

And realizing that they can cut out docent, you know the middleman and just you know get the ai to do it

01:15

So I wouldn't be surprised if they're not doing that now already. Yeah, the gpt thing is Is free, right?

01:22

Yes, so I I think the quality is getting better and I think we're on the Threshold of it being somewhat passable.

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I mean for um, you know It's obviously not going to have a whole lot of personality in it and that kind of stuff

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But then um, you know just doing doing some of the brunt work I wouldn't be surprised if that's already happening too.

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Well, maybe like with the you know, maybe uh docent they can corner the market and and have a monopoly on you know, like all of the stories and examples that like here's examples for this kind of Of sermon, you know, and then you can just throw them into your ai generated

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Sermon as needed and then there you go sermon of like what 15 minutes Well, what

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I thought would be really funny would be if docent was using the ai I mean if it wasn't like god's money that you had to be concerned about right?

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Like yeah, like it being spent in this way I mean it would be pretty like hilarious to think that like docent was using ai chatbot sermon

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They were getting for free to give to these mega church pastors who are paying Like arm and a leg for this stuff, you know, so that would be a strange kind of like sense of um, uh, that would that would be an imprecatory prayer that That uh, we could pray towards the megachurch pastors

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That they get swindled may docent That you could have used for free and you have to pay for them, you know, uh, but uh, no, yeah,

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I wouldn't be surprised if That uh that they're not pastors who were

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Starting to do this now now. It's just a matter of time before how long would it be before the You know, we we detect it, you know, so there's that I don't know.

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I don't know the answer to that Well, I mean if people are willing to use docent which why don't you explain for for?

03:19

Some of the people out there who might not know what docent is won't you explain what what who docent is?

03:24

Well, you had yeah You had a group docent research group that was like marketing themselves up marketing themselves to megachurch pastors to essentially do all their research and you had a bunch of big name pastors like jd greer and ed litton who were um

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I think I think I think ed litton was using it docent too but jd greer was a big proponent of doing that and talking about how these guys make him look smart and And so I think there's many people who wondered if maybe docent gave

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Ed litton and jd greer the same servants that he was plagiarizing and that's why they got in some of the trouble that got into But I don't that's somewhat speculation at that point

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But a lot of docent basically is a group that was basically basically hiring themselves out at pretty expensive rates

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To pastors to write their sermons For them the bulk of their sermons for them.

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So it's supposed to be just like research But it seems like they were doing a lot more than that so when it comes to ai, you know, we framed this as like You know ai sermon scandal.

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So why would it be a scandal? That scandal implies there's something wrong somewhere. So so what exactly is wrong in that kind of scenario?

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Yeah, I mean this is just a plagiarism discussion in general So it's just a it's just a pledge and i'm a plagiarism obviously isn't an exact science

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In that way, but plagiarism like the biblical idea behind plagiarism is plagiarism's theft Like meaning you're stealing like certain um ideas like you're taking credit for so there's a theft discussion that's related to Like this and like I think there's a real debate you can have on whether or not like the idea of intellectual property is something that Fundamentally belongs to anyone in particular

05:09

So there's a theft discussion related to that But then there's an honesty discussion in that most people are hiring a pastor with the expectation that they're not just an actor, right?

05:19

Sure. Yeah Like there's qualifications for the job that go beyond just acting out a script and it seems like with a lot of the plagiarism

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Scandals with the mega church pastors essentially what you had is you had a bunch of actors Who are acting out certain scripts that they bought?

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And, you know, so there's a there's a theft kind of component to that and then like more primary to that you have dishonesty and qualification kind of components to that where The role of a pastor is to be someone who is teaching the word of god to people and it's supposed to be like the word of god that they have processed and know and have certain convictions as far as What they're teaching is and so they should be men of the word who are studying the word and not just like having other people, you know pass them along information that they're going to be

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Copying wholesale and regurgitating as some sort of actor so Like it's their responsibility to you know

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Do the work and do the state now when you go to sermon prep, obviously you're going to consult many and variety of sources and you know

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There are individuals who like this there's obviously not an exact science and how you're dealing with these things Like meaning like you're operating on a certain spectrum, right?

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Like some people are leaning way more like heavily on these secondary sources than they should be

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And then there are those like like who are consulting these secondary sources after their own personal study

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Meaning they have ideas that are original to them. But I mean, I remember um, I think it was at um G3 conference that you know, paul washer essentially said something along the lines of um,

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You know if he listened to a pastor long enough He could tell whether or not they were doing their own personal study or not, right?

07:00

it's not that hard, you know, I I can it's the kind of thing that um, The more familiar you are with the bible the more you begin to see

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Like the more you can like if you listen long enough You can tell like does this person know the bible on their own or they just Kind of cutting cutting and pasting stuff that they're finding in certain ways and so there's like it may be not be intuitively obvious to everyday common, you know, jodoh person, but like it is there is a big difference between talking to someone who knows the bible and someone who doesn't and Most of that will show up in just simple conversation you have with them too like there's a big difference between talking to someone who has devoted their life to knowing this book and trying to apply it and that's the job of a pastor and when you like you're short -circuiting that process by just like stealing things straight up or Lying about where it and you just you've you know, take it a whole sermon lifted it from someone put your name on it there's real like lying integrity kind of issues and that you're um, you know and particularly with some of the jd greer ed lytton stuff and you have ed lytton like stealing personal stories about Going to the dmv or you know taking a driving exam or whatever it was

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I take I think it was taking a driving test or something along those lines It's like that's dishonest that didn't actually happen to you

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You're just stealing that and so there are lines as far as these things go But right that's especially egregious considering the fact that you could have just as easily have said

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Someone I know Right went to the dmv, you know, or whatever whatever the story was like, it's not that hard to just change the story

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It's not like it has to be you know, it's not like it's integral to the story, you know that it'd be yeah personal for you um, but that that's just that's more of an aside, but You know,

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I think When it comes to this kind of discussion that second point you're making is probably the more convincing

08:55

For me that there's something wrong here. I I know a lot of people really make a big deal about the plagiarism thing and I you know personally i'm just kind of like I don't know that i'm that interested in that angle um

09:17

You know, I think I think from one perspective I I sort of see where people are coming from like we've basically

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I mean a lot of it seems like a lot of people have collectively come together and and for some reason agreed that you know when a pastor teaches a lesson or prepares a sermon and and Preaches that sermon or writes the book or whatever the you know, those ideas belong to them in every single way right and and if anyone wants to use those ideas, they need to get permission from that from that pastor and All right.

09:54

I know not everyone thinks that way but but there's a lot of people who who really push this angle even people who would probably agree with us on the ai sermon thing and you know, the

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Docent research group stuff. They really push the plagiarism stuff and and personally for me.

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I'm just not that interested in it I'm much more I think the much larger problem in all this is the second point that you bring up basically this idea of What a pastor part of a pastor's responsibility and you know, probably the biggest responsibility they have is

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Understanding the bible and being able to teach the bible uh to to their sheep, right and I don't think you can claim that when you're when you're you know instead of Committing a lot of time to studying the bible for yourself week in and week out to be prepared

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For a sunday morning or sunday evening or wednesday night or whatever uh when you're just when you're you know

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Putting that on like a research group or you're putting that on a robot To do it for you and then blind and especially like you're blindly trusting it or or you're just going off of like You're you're um

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Like the understanding that you have of the bible right now and not allowing any opportunity to be

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You know convinced that maybe you're wrong or maybe you know You've forgotten some things that you thought you remembered and if you had gone back and done the research yourself

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You would have realized and your mind would have been changed Um, but you've totally missed that opportunity because you put the research on someone else

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You've put the study time on someone else that seemed that seems like the the Much more concerning the the plagiarism thing is just kind of like yeah,

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I mean whatever honestly, you know I I think it's it's useful as a category to understand.

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So like in terms of uh, like if you're writing an academic paper at a university or something like that, like like there is uh, there are clearer ways to distinguish between like ideas that are original and ideas that are not okay,

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So meaning like if you just borrow the whole outline of of a book that is an expert on the topic

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They're going to be able to sniff that out and ferret that out that you're didn't actually put any thought into this You're not producing anything

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New so in that way like what what i'm trying to say is with the plagiarism discussion You at least have categories for understanding

12:26

How much you should be leaning on an ai and secondary research in general, right? Meaning we've kind of sorted that out under the plagiarism discussion um

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Like to some degree right to where we know there's a difference between stealing an outline for you know

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Stealing examples, right direct quotes direct block quotes like direct Pages, right?

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Yeah. Yeah, like so like when you write a paper you are expected to write it in your own voice

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Like quoting certain you quote certain information now when you bring that into a sermon

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I I I think we should be aware that that It's fuzzy where the standards are, you know in terms of a sermon with some of those things

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It may not be the same kind of Thing, okay So, I mean one of the things that macarthur always said was, you know

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You can take anything that i've ever written and if it's true, you can say it You don't have to quote me on it and I really like respect that kind of posture that he he's had

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There's been people who've asked me for information, you know Online and i'll just send them like entire studies

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I've done on certain topics and say use it. However, you want to I don't care. It's true if it's true It's it's helpful use it, you know so I think that there's there is a part of this where We're learning from each other.

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We're looking at the stuff that other people are doing We're benefiting from all that but that shouldn't you know, as you're saying though short circuit the personal

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Work and i'm a lot of the mega church pastors who are doing these kind of things And there there's been a sensation when i'm looking at it.

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It's like did you not think about what you're saying here? Like, you know god whispers about sexual sin jd greer.

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Like have you ever read the bible before? Like, you know, how could you say, you know, how could you say that? You know, and I think that there there is a very real like a person who has become accustomed to having other people hand him

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His script that he's reading He hasn't like learned to think through these issues like he should right right

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Yeah, and and you know, there's been plenty of times where i've done sermons and in the process of doing it

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I realized that my starting point Like fairly late in the game Is fundamentally flawed, okay, right like like i've just um, like I thought it was right

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But then as i've gone and I was working on it and I was working on it put a bunch of work on it And I realized that all my points are wrong.

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Okay Like and I have to fix them, you know, right

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Because they're wrong I can't just stand up here and say this because i've like realized that I didn't know what

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I was saying here, you know, so Like that mechanism of like wrestling with the text, you know when guys are doing this kind of thing

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They are depriving themselves of that mechanism But that's the very thing that helps you to learn the bible is to wrestle with the details and try to put it together and like you're

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You're doing all your research and you're looking at the passage over and over again and it refines you But those are the people who know the bible know the people who are going to shepherd well

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And like the ones who are just doing this actor game Like they may be able to stand up in and give like a you know, impressive sermon or whatever

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They'll put on a show they'll put on a show, but they're just actors. So that is that is the more fundamental problem for sure

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Okay, fair enough This has been another episode of bible bashed we hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion

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