Open Air Theology- "James White vs Jared Longshore" debate review

All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Open Air Theology Show. My name is

Jeff, and I'm one of the hosts here of Open Air Theology. I am also a pastor slash elder at Covenant Reform Baptist Church in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

If you're ever in this area, stop by, hang out with your boy. I'm going to pass it down to the man, the myth, the ex -Mormon, the legend.

I am Pastor Braden of Valley Baptist Church here in Southern Idaho.

It's a real blessing to be able to see you guys tonight. Our church service is at 11, and if you live in this area, I'd love to see you.

Every Lord's Day, it'd be a real blessing to worship our triune God with one another. I have a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex -Mormon, and it's, like I said before, it's a great blessing to be a co -host with these godly and wonderful, sometimes a little too harsh and mean and rude brothers in the faith.

I'm just joking. Hey, everybody. My name is Tom Shepherd. I'm with Grace Bible Church of Birney.

I'm an evangelist there. We head out and share the gospel in the streets of Texas. I'm a co -host here with these gentlemen here, using that word, small gentlemen, because sometimes they're rude and mean

Calvinists, just saying. I also host a YouTube channel called

Even If None, which is all about evangelism. So, glad to be here. All right.

Sounds good. I hope everyone's having a wonderful day, a wonderful Lord's Day. I hope you were able to gather together with the saints.

Well, since we're doing this on a Lord's Day evening, night, whatever it is that you are, we like to begin each show talking about how our

Lord's Day Sabbath went. And mine was really good, man. The worship was really good.

Man, we just sang such rich and beautiful music, man, thanks to my co -elder,

Pastor Cal. He kind of outlines everything that we're going to do. And it's just like it just gets you where you need to be in the spirit, right?

I saw someone say something. I think there's quoting Alistair Begg. If you want to know someone's theology or something like that, listen to their worship music.

I'm butchering the quote, but man, it just reminds me of the music that we listen to.

And it's just Christ exalting. I felt like my message went really good today. It flowed well.

Last week, if you heard my message, I was really struggling with a migraine. This week was good.

I was able to preach on the triumphant entry. So I went from John 12, verse 12 to 19.

It was really good, man. Through studying it this week, the Lord opened my eyes on some stuff that I never really saw before.

I'm just grateful for his grace and allowing me to stand before his people and proclaim his name.

Amen. What about you, Brayden? It was a blessed

Lord's Day. I did a just wonderful time fellowshipping with the saints. We had shared meal today. And so that's always a blessing to sit down and chat and joke and just get along with one another.

Today, I just preached from Daniel 2, 31 to 35, and then looked at the broader context.

It was a topical message that I gave today, just looking and focusing on the kingdom of God. And something that a lot of Christians, especially my dear futurist brothers out there and sisters out there, there's some great spiritual realities that they are ignoring.

I would articulate and argue for it. So it was a blessing to see those things that Christ has earned in his death, burial and resurrection.

And my message was an hour long today. So there was that. You're becoming a man.

I only got through about 80 % of my sermon, too. At that time, when I saw the people starting to nod off,

I was like, all right, well, you got to wrap this up because people are... They start nodding off five minutes after I get started.

I don't care. So yeah, it was a good message.

It was fun. It was a fun text to be in. Cool. Well, so today our associate pastor,

Frank Gutting, was preaching on the glory of Christ, or the glory of God, actually. Went to Exodus talking about, show me your glory.

He stayed a little bit in there, but it was a topical sermon. And he bounced around through the

Psalms, scribed to Yahweh the glory he deserves, and then went into Ephesians and all that.

But on top of that, this was the first weekend that we did evangelism, both on Saturday and on the

Lord's day as well. And so there was a kid, and I showed you a photo of a young man yesterday.

I mean, I think he was maybe 12 years old, and he was listening to the gospel being preached in open air.

And I could have punished myself for not going over to him and talking with him a little more.

He got a Bible, and he met the other evangelism, our team, which we had 11 people go out yesterday, by the way, which was awesome.

And he was gone. And he was just on my heart all night. And we went out there after the

Lord's day after service. And sure enough, there he was again, and got to me.

His name is Justin. Man, he has a great understanding of the gospel. He was able to repeat back.

I would ask him questions as to what he heard. And man, I just hope that the

Lord moved on his heart. It was such a blessing. It was a great Lord's day, man. I mean, that tops it off right there.

Yeah, amen, amen. Yeah, I was able to go out evangelizing Friday, and it was a very sweet time.

We got a new guy at our church, Jake, and sometimes he gets on here and watches these.

He's like Braden is an ex -Mormon. Jake is an ex -Jehovah Witness. And I'm hoping to one day have him on here and kind of do an interview.

So we'll interview him. But I think it's really cool, right? Like I'm really good friends with an ex -Mormon. And now

I got an ex -Jehovah Witness who is a part of our church. He's out with me evangelizing. Like this is just great things that the

Lord is doing, right? Yeah. Hallelujah, hallelujah. But I'm so blessed that the

Lord has given us this great commission. And you know, like a lot of people, and it is, right?

Like witnessing to people is frightening. But man, I'm telling you what, there's no greater joy.

Yeah. There's just no greater joy, right? I just love being out there doing the Lord's work, telling people about Jesus.

Amen. And I try to tell people all the time, like, listen, I know it's scary. I know it's terrifying. But man, if you just put yourself out on the limb and do it, you will want to keep doing it.

God will use you. Yeah, God will use you. Yeah. I mean, he uses this broken vessel.

That's right. I mean, if he's going to use Jeff. Oh no, if he's going to use me, right?

All right. So tonight's topic, Jarrett Longshore, should have stayed a

Baptist. Should have stayed a Baptist. What happened, brother? What happened? You let them

Presbys get to you. Yeah, he changed that number right there. He subtracted.

Yeah, he's trying to go to 1646. Man. Okay. So what we're going to do here.

So if you don't know, if you aren't aware, James White and Jarrett Longshore had a debate on, what would you call it?

It was, it was, it was, who is, who is in the new covenant? Yeah, so to kind of break it down for you, it was, it was as if two debates was going on, right?

So you had James White debating from using, exegetically using

Hebrews chapter 7 all the way to chapter 10. And then

Jarrett Longshore is not necessarily using the

Hebrews text like James is, but he's coming at it from a theological view.

Now, I think both of them are fine, right? I would definitely have a debate with someone on this subject, just using

Hebrews 7 through 10, or I would definitely have a debate with someone on this subject, just using the theological framework.

The problem was, was both of them came at this the way that they wanted to, and it, and it just left a lot of questions unanswered.

So I want to give my flowers to both gentlemen, right? James did what

James do. I mean, James did what James, James did what James does, do's, right?

James do -do'd. Right, he takes the biblical text and he presents it, right?

And then, and then Jarrett Longshore did what he did, right? He came at it from a theological framework.

Yeah, and a couple, couple things regarding the debate real quick too. That was James White's probably 200th debate.

It was Jarrett Longshore's first. It was his first one, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's someone who just had their first public moderated debate.

Right. Wow. Yeah, brilliant guy. Yeah. Both of those guys, well,

I don't, I'll speak for myself on this. They're a million times smarter than me.

That's what I do though. I mean, yeah. Yeah, I mean, just find your average everyday dog, right?

Oh yeah, point, that's my cricket. Brayden, before we get into it, do you have any thoughts about it?

I haven't gotten a chance to watch the whole video yet. I know James White won the debate because he was arguing it from a Baptistic standpoint and I already know that.

And so I've had the great blessing to study Hebrews 7 to 10 in several different contexts and James definitely came at it with the, with the more

Biblical view, but I'm sure that there are some left unanswered questions that we'll address.

So you can't talk either. So, I mean, we're just a bunch of guys that can't talk. Yeah, oh yeah, no, absolutely.

We are going to point out that there are some things that were said that both of them are wrong in.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Both good brothers in the Lord. Absolutely, both of them.

Listen, I cannot, I cannot tell you how much James White has done for me.

Not, not in just my work, right? Like he's helped me provide for my family by advertising me.

But, but on my spiritual journey, right? James White is kind of like the

Godfather. Okay, right? Like, like I love James White.

If he called me right now and asked me to do something for him, I would 100 % do whatever it was that he asked me to do.

But the deal is, is that they're coming at this from two different frameworks. And so it's, so when

Jarrett says something, I feel like it's James, it's not connecting with James because James is looking at it from a different view.

James is not looking at it from a 1689 covenant, Baptist covenant theology, or you would call a

Federalist, a 1689 Federalist. And so, and so Jarrett Longshore is able to say things and I don't think it's connecting with James.

Right. And so it's not that James messed up. I think he just messed it.

So we just had a wonderful question asked that I hope we answer later, but I don't think it's the right time to answer it quite yet.

But that is a great question that was just asked by Mr. Hudson on. Mr. Hudson, Mr. Hudson, welcome.

If you've not, I've not seen your, your name here, but welcome. Thank you for joining us. Do you guys know

Mr. Hudson? I don't, I do not. Great question though. Well, we'll, let's try to address that later, but all right.

Well, remind me, we'll pull it up on the thing and look at it. Yeah. All right. Well, let's get started gentlemen.

All right. We're going to go and we're going to, so, so Tom, will you introduce this first section while he's pulling it up?

Yeah. So, so this is a, a one minute section, one minute clip of James White, basically summing up his opening statement and his argument, who is in the new covenant?

What is it made up of? Is it made up of just regenerate people or is it a mixed congregation?

The same way old Testament of Israel would be. So he's going to answer that question.

What do you got your hand up for? I don't know if you can see my hand or not, just because of how small my hand is, but what's the minute marker that I'm going to with this one and I can get it.

Let's go. Let's go 2645 and let's go through 2645.

Yeah. And we'll go through 2755. It'll probably close before that. Ready?

Yeah. There we go. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ actually is, but this is a singular argument from chapter 7 to chapter 10.

Chapter 8 is the longest biblical citation. So here's the issue. If we're going to identify the, who is in the new covenant, who is in the new covenant in our day today are those whose sins have been forgiven, whose iniquities have been taken away from the least, the greatest, and they know

God. And therefore those, the people to whom you give the covenant sign, you don't give the covenant sign to people who do not make a profession of faith in Jesus Christ in hopes that someday they will.

And if you do, then you've got to ask to answer some questions. Are you saying that, for example, when, when two, when a

Christian husband and wife have children, the church grows, Jared has said that we need to understand how that works because hopefully as we form people, we don't want to go to any type of sacerdotalism.

We don't want to go there. So how do we avoid doing that? That can be the question for the rest of our discussion.

Since I didn't start my timer on time, I don't want to go over time. So I will stop there and hopefully remember to start the timer next time.

So I don't have this problem, but there's a quick introduction to the biblical argument and I'm looking forward to hearing

Jared's response. Do you want me to pause it? Yeah. Yeah. That was great.

Yeah. Amen. I would, I would just clarify real fast for the audience if they don't, if they, if this is completely foreign, you don't know who

James Wyatt or Jared Longshore, you have no idea the differences between Reformed Baptist covenant theology versus Presbyterian covenant theology.

It all is dealing with, especially in light of the covenant of grace, that which is clarified in the

New Testament, who are the members of that covenant and who is to receive the sign because of those members being in that covenant.

And so as Reformed Baptists, we're saying all the elect are part of the covenant and you only give to assign to somebody that you can ensure is in the covenant.

And so therefore it is credo baptism versus the pedo Baptist is saying that children are included in this covenant regardless of profession based off the merit of their parents.

They're included in this and therefore they should receive the sign before a profession of faith that shows their elect nature in God, right?

So that that's really the argument that's going on here. And so what James has just elaborated on is saying only those that are in the covenant should be receiving the sign and only those inside of covenant are saved and none are saved outside of it.

None aren't saved inside of it. And so it's Reformed Baptist covenant theology that you walk away with.

Right. And one of the proof fits outside of the verses that he used. I would go to Romans chapter eight, verse nine.

It says, however, you are not of the flesh in the spirit, but if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you, but if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

And so the spirit of Christ is only for the regenerate. So if we don't have Christ, if we don't have the Holy Spirit, we've not been born again.

The Holy Spirit doesn't reside, reside in us and we should not be partaking in the sign.

Yeah. Another scriptural proof that I, I, I think it's Matthew 21 verse 43 to 47.

I'm going to totally butcher the quote. So forgive me ahead. It's the area of scripture where Christ talks about him being the stone that is rejected by the builders and that anybody that falls upon the stone will be broken into pieces.

And anyone that stone falls upon will be shattered to dust. It says that this, this in relation to the vine grower parable, he says this kingdom is being taken and given to another nation producing the fruit of it.

Now, if you consider that it's a singular nation, but we know that the gospel, which is what's being talked about the kingdom of God, mark one 15, that the kingdom that Jesus goes into the city of Galilee saying that the kingdom of God was at hand, repent and believe the gospel.

This kingdom is the gospel going forth, right? This is, this comes from my sermon today.

The kingdom is, is the stone is Christ. The kingdom is all the people of God in Christ. And so when it says one nation, well, we know that Romans one that there's no distinction between Jew or Gentile for we're all made one in what

Christ Jesus. So that's the, the Nash, the nation right there, the

Israel of God, the people of God, that this kingdom is being taken from the Jews in that day and given unto.

And so there's several scriptural groups that you can go to for this. And, and so what the, what Jared is trying to do before his argument, he's holding, he's trying to show continuity from the old

Testament, from the old Testament, where, where the, where the scripture used the term, the people of God, the nation of Israel, which was made up of people who believed and who did not believe there were people within that nation that were a mixed congregation of people.

Some of them had saving faith, pointing to Christ. That's how everybody is saved is through Christ.

And then there's another group of people within that nation. And where it gets confusing is because the scripture talks about the nation,

Israel, the people of God, the nation Israel, but within that community, within that community, there are both believing and unbelieving people.

Yeah. And so like, just to kind of say something that we've said before, right, because he's going to be,

Jared's going to be walking and like talking about the continuity and discontinuity. And this is where I think

Presbyterians actually fall on their face because it's, it's kind of like they're again, and I've used this analogy before, right?

You have the guy chasing after the coyote, right? And he's trying to, or the, the guy's not the guy that's trying to shoot the rabbit.

Are you watching any of those cartoons? They stick a gun into the hoe and the barrel comes back out and points at them.

They pull the trigger and they shoot themselves, right? Simply because of the continuity aspect of those that were in the old covenant, they would enter the old covenant through birth and then they will part, then they would take the sign.

So in the old covenant, you had to be born. If you were a male child, then you eight days later, you were circumcised.

You were given the sign of the covenant, right? And so the new covenant has continuity with that.

The only discontinuity would be the sign is different. It's no longer circumcision. It's baptism and it's no longer the natural birth.

It's the spiritual birth. It's Pauline Genesea. It's regeneration. It's the new birth.

You must be born again. And those who are born again, right? Infants in Christ, they receive the new covenant sign, which is baptism.

So birth before sign, right? Right. Old covenant, natural birth, sign, new covenant, spiritual birth, sign.

We missed such a bad, like Jeff, how dare you not bring up that analogy of Elmer Fudd?

I know you've said it before, but that would have been the perfect thumbnail for this. Elmer Fudd with Jared, Jared Longshore on it.

Well, I couldn't get you to do anything. I can't ever get you to do nothing.

We could have put like above, we could have put above Elmer Fudd. That was Elmer Fudd. Let's just stop everything right now and redo it.

Just so everybody knows, the graphic, you guys might have known that it was done by an amateur this last time.

And Jeff was just being nice, but it was found wanting.

It wasn't very good. It was. No one was like Don, that's what he needed. I did my

James White was sitting on James White was sitting on. No. Yeah, he was sitting on his shoulder.

That was good. That was, that was good. It was good. Yeah. The idea was good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was good.

So you're right. That is absolutely Braden's fault. It's all. It is. You didn't have time for us. No, he don't.

He's got too much going on. When you're always carrying these guys, it's really easy to point blame.

These shoulders. Brother with those hands, you couldn't carry anything. Look, look, do you guys see how

I'm holding you guys up right now? I can't even see your hands. I'm sorry.

Where were we? Where were we? All right. I'm pulling this back up.

Look at that. All right. Wait, where are we at? Minute marker. Okay. So we need to go.

So now we're going to go to Jared's kind of opening statement. You want to start, I believe at 28, right?

Jeff? Well, if we're going to go through his whole opening statement, we're going to need to speed up the, uh, his, his, his talk.

Right. Um, and again, we might not get, I don't know. I'm not sure if we're going to get done completely with this tonight.

Yeah. So here's the other thing, cause there's a couple of pay. I mean, if you guys would pay attention here, minute 30, 20, we're going to hear

Jared say something. See if you guys check, catch it. Um, I caught it. These guys are going to catch it.

Uh, and I won't say any more on there, but there's look through these things.

And if you have any questions or say, Hey, stop, or have a question, you know?

Yeah. Hi, Brandon. Brandon, do you know how to speed up the, uh, I do.

All right. Yeah. So speed it up a little bit. And then we'll just see how I'm still underneath you guys.

I'm carrying you right now. Don't you worry? I got you. I pulled this thing up on the video. I got

Jeff right there. I'm holding them up. All right, y 'all.

So I, I just let me know when to pause. All right. Just do what we tell you to. Being able to have something to protect myself with this

Burna allows me to have that peace of mind. No matter what. Like a pro with 10 seconds to go.

Dr. White. Very nice. Impressive. That's fast. Good Lord. And same goes for you, Jared. I will, um, I'll come on and give you a one minute warning.

If you'd like to slow that down a little bit, your timer, your time will begin as soon as you start speaking. Okay. I've written up my opening statements.

I'll read this. I mean, Kyle, I like the rest of the time. Let me begin by thanking James for having me. 1 .5. And a good man, my brother in Christ, which makes debating.

Oh my Lord. Everybody. Welcome to open air theology. We are professionals. Good Lord.

That was fast. That was a micro machine, man. That was good. You, you would have done. 15 minutes on that intellectual privilege at the door.

But in guys, I can't get it to go. Start, start her out. Minute.

Oh, we're losing people as we speak. All right, let's try it.

Here we go. All right. While all of our good listeners know that intersectional themes and victim identity, you must adopt them just this once for this debate.

Guys. I don't know how to get. 1 .5,

I have it. Look, look, Jeff. John. Normal. Normal real fast and see if it fixes it.

How about that? So by the way, there is the echo. Proletariat over against James's hegemonic power. Okay.

So that is at 1 .5. It's just that. Okay. Do 25. Yeah, the echo is going to be there.

Like 0 .25. So then it goes real slow. Yes. That's not exactly. You mean 1 .25?

Yeah. That's some Roland. Tigers on the side. We should get right down to it. I want to get into the

Hebrews. We should do that in the rebuttal. I'll touch on it here. But I have a this statement. I've prepared here. The prompt states the new covenant consists of only regenerate persons.

And that is the crucial question. I grant that if this is true, then the rest of the prompt follows. So I will focus all of my attention on the central thing.

Disagreeing with a prompt in favor of the claim. The new covenant does not only consist of regenerate persons, but those who profess faith in Christ and their children.

The first thing to do in order to determine who new covenant members is to define the new covenant itself. A Costco member is one thing and Costco.

All right. So he's talking about a Costco member is one thing. I meant a

Costco is one thing, but then the member is another. So he's speaking of the covenant as a membership with Costco.

Right. So as if. So like what I would used to do is I would I would want to go in when

I was with my brothers to Costco when where we live to go get free samples. And what we would do is we'd say, oh, yeah, mom and dad are inside.

And so because of mom and dad having the membership, we could go in without a membership to get the snacks.

Right. Is that kind of what he's getting at? I bet. That's it. Yeah, there you go.

Here's your sign. Can you play that at normal? Just because my brain is not as smart as you guys. All right.

Well, if we have to play it at normal, maybe we shouldn't go over everything because it'll take too long.

But there's but there's I mean, there's good stuff in here that needs that needs to be spoken on.

Yeah, but I don't think James White touched because it was just right. It wasn't what he was talking about.

Okay. And play. So am I going normal? What am I doing? Normal play.

Normal play. Go itself is another. So it is with the new covenant and new covenant members and that word new and new covenant implies that there was an older version of it.

The Bible has an Old Testament and a New Testament, but only one Lord, one Christ, one gracious redemption.

He says that there's a new version of it. All right. That's not what the new covenant is.

The new covenant is not a new version of the old covenant, right?

So this is like if you grew if you know, I was a child in the 80s, right? And there was this this game and I was talking about today in Sunday school, but those

I can't remember what I think there's this game to where you had these these like little toy monkeys and their arms were shaped like this and you would connect and you would try to pick up a monkey with the monkey right by trying to get the arms connecting the arm.

Never mind, whatever. Thank you.

This is why Jeff Williams in Woodford, by the way, just listen, don't bring Bigfoot into it.

Okay, he's done nothing to deserve your ridicule. You're right. He's done nothing except anyway, so they would see all right, so they would see the old covenants as you know, like so so the covenant of grace beginning in Genesis 315.

So that is its conception and that all the other covenants. So that Abrahamic Mosaic Davidic, they're linked to the to it.

Right, right. But they also would say that as ministrations, but they would also say that the new covenant is also just an administration of that one covenant of grace where all the other covenants are linked to right.

And so he's going to say that here in a minute to in minute 30. So let's play this to you about minute.

Let's play it to a minute 330 20. About the 1689

Baptist Confession 7 2 as well as the Westminster Confession affirm God's one covenant of grace and in order to define the new covenant.

We need. Okay, 32 now. Now he's saying here that both the 1689 and the

Westminster both affirm the one covenant of quite of grace of grace.

Yes. Now how he defines it. Now, you just said that it's inaugurated. It's inaugurated or it's conception.

Genesis. Genesis. Yeah, Genesis 315, which it's not, which I'll get. So, so let me read

Genesis 315. Dude, look at you, bro. Look at you, man. Guys, little hands.

You can do whatever you want. Okay, so now remember guys, you guys remember this is that Jared is saying and, and, and James heard this that 1689 and Westminster hold to one covenant of grace and what he's saying is, is that one covenant of grace spans old covenant or Old Testament and New Testament.

That's what he's saying. And that's where he's going with that. Correct. And the argument would be that it was inaugurated.

The conception of this one covenant began in Genesis 315. Here's what Genesis 315 says.

So this is after Adam and Eve have been deceived and have eaten from the fruit of the knowledge, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, whatever that fruit was.

It says I will put enmity between you speaking to the serpent and the woman and between your offspring.

So that's the offspring of the serpent and her offspring, the offspring of the woman. He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel.

So there's going to be coming an offspring from the woman who is going to bruise the head of the serpent and he is only going to bruise the heel of the serpent.

So he is saying that this right here is the conception, is the inauguration of the covenant of grace.

It was a noun. Yeah, it was a noun. So, so, so if you watched our previous conversations about this, we showed how there's certain things that has to be in the text in order for something to qualify as a covenant.

And we walk through all of them to show you that all these things are there, right? But you're told what you're going to do and what not to do.

And if you do what you're not supposed to do, then a punishment will be given. Those three things are not found in Genesis chapter 3 verse 15.

And so our view as Reformed Baptists, we don't believe that the inauguration of the covenant of grace is right here.

But the announcement of it, the promise right here. We see a promise of a covenant.

The promise is that that an offspring is going to come from the woman that will bruise the head of the serpent while only bruising his heel and that took place on Calvary's heel when

Christ was crucified. So when

Christ was crucified, that's when the inauguration of the covenant of grace began.

Yeah, that's a good question. Mr. Hudson, just real fast. He's asking if an old covenant when a new covenant comes, if it ends that other covenant and no, it does not.

So Noah's covenant is not ended. That covenant still exists today. You would see that the mosaic covenant is ratified, re -ratified in Abraham.

So no, a new covenant does not end an old covenant. However, in Hebrews 8, it's saying that covenant that included law and obedience that produced life, but death upon breaking it has become obsolete because the covenant of grace has now been initiated or inaugurated.

And that was where grace and life are given, thus producing obedience.

Right. So I would just look at it like this. So the, so, so the Noahic covenant is a, is a covenant that's always going to be here, right?

All right. So you have the Adamic covenant when the Abrahamic covenant came, it did not get rid of the

Adamic when the, when the mosaic covenant come, it did not get rid of the Abrahamic or the

Adamic. And when the Davidic covenant was given, it did not get rid of so on and so forth. But when the new covenant is given, the old covenant ends, the scriptures tells us in Glacians chapter three, that the law was only until Christ.

So I was going to say, Hebrews 8 is also very clear in this. It says, what is ever growing old and obsolete is ready to disappear.

So, so I'll read it verbatim here. In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one, which is referring back to the laws of Moses and the covenant there in the first one obsolete.

And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. So scripture says that this covenant, the covenant of law is gone in Christ, no longer existing.

Yeah, because he fulfilled it, right? He lived the life that we could not live, right?

That's keeping the law, right? Not to earn righteousness for himself.

He is righteous, but so that we can be merited with righteousness, credit it.

Well, Abraham credited, we debit it. And then he takes upon himself the punishment that we deserve.

So are we making a distinction between the old covenant and the mosaic covenant? Okay. So that's a kind of a loaded question.

And I would say no, because in Galatians and Galatians also, so in Galatians three, it's speaking of the mosaic covenant being added to the

Abrahamic covenant. And it says that it was, that it was only until Christ. Now, are we saying that the 10 commandments have ended?

No, that's not what we're saying. Right. We're saying Moses, as Moses, by way of covenant has ended.

So it was introduced, it was, it was introduced in, in, in, uh, Genesis three.

And then, then Genesis 12, what happens in Genesis 12? What happens in Genesis 15 and what happens in Genesis 17?

You want to go through that? Well, I mean,

I don't, I don't think it's necessary for this, for this conversation, but I mean, I mean, we have previous videos that we have done so and we can do again.

Okay. If we're going to get anywhere in this tonight, we need to, right. Yeah, it's, it's going to be hard.

I would say just real quickly. So, so Jared's, uh, argument about one covenant of grace and you are correct.

He is correct in saying that there is only one covenant of grace that is talked about here, but it's the way that the covenants, the covenant of grace is handled.

Notice I have right here, a wonderful document that I would highly encourage anybody that is watching to save to your desktop or your phone browser.

It's a tabular, uh, comparison between the 1689, the Savoy here in the center.

So the 1689 is over on the right Savoy's in the center and the West ministers on the left. And I would just, I would just show you, uh, look at what, how much different each one of these paragraphs are from another, especially when it comes to paragraph three for the 1689 compared to that of the five, five and six of, of the others.

Um, the, what's being done in here is that this is worded in a way that, that it was very clear that they were wanting the, the other reformed individuals at the time to say that they could say men to this, but also distinguishing their view of the covenant, which then is further elaborated on in the confession.

But I do think it's helpful to read this right here. It says this covenant is revealed in the gospel. So pause, we got to remember what the gospel is for this to make sense.

The life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, our Lord and savior, right? The good news of salvation found in that federal head.

And so that that's when the covenant is revealed. That's where the covenant is revealed at.

And it says, first of all, so that covenant, which was future for Adam was first of all, to Adam in a promise of salvation by the seat of a woman and afterwards by further steps until full discovery thereof was completed in the new

Testament or inaugurated or instituted or cut in the new Testament. Right. And it is found in the eternal covenant transaction that was between the father and the son about the redemption of the elect.

So notice in here, the Baptist is trying to say that only those in the covenant of grace, this covenant, right is the elect, but that that's the only members of this.

And so that's where credo baptism is going to play into it. And it says and it alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen

Adam that have ever ever were saved did obtain life and blessed

Immortality been a man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which

Adam stood in a state of innocence. Now, when you look back at this West Minister in Savoy, they keep on referring to this covenant as being readministered, readministered, readministered.

Whereas the 1689 is making it very clear that no one was saved under a law covenant.

No one was saved under a covenant that required lawful obedience. So that that's, that's the distinguishing factor.

Yep. Not by it. Not by it. Not by it. Excuse me. Not by it. We would say that Abraham was saved in the old covenant through the new covenant.

Excuse me if I misspoke on that, but that, that is what the 1689 is saying. Troy, real quick.

I'm sorry, Troy. Yeah. He said that what we're explaining is progressive new covenant theology or progressive covenant theology.

And it's not, what we're explaining to you is 1689 federalist federalism, or I just like to call it

Baptist covenant theology. Right. So just in case people don't, yeah, just in case people don't understand it.

So there are some reform classic covenantalism that some reformed

Baptist that would hold to, uh, what did they call it? What's the, what's the, uh, the term, uh, new age.

What is it not? Oh, Oh my Lord.

Oh boy. Look at that. Good looking guys. Just, Oh my Lord. Hey, listen, I was doing good things.

I messed up once. That's my fault. Yeah. So, so the, the classic covenantalism is, is a, is a position that reformed

Baptist will hold to where they would believe and they would hold to, like Jared pointed out, um, that the one covenant of Christ spanning through the old

Testament and new, new Testament. 1689 federalism would not say that. Yeah.

And Eric Yeager might be able to answer this question for us, which, which I don't believe James White holds to 1689 federalism.

I believe he holds to 1689 covenant. Classical. Yeah. The 1689 classical covenant.

And so, and I think that's why he didn't really give any pushback to Jared on that point regarding that point.

So why does, yeah. Michelle just asked, why does the old covenant remain? If we are under a new covenant, the old covenant doesn't, but the old covenant is over.

It's dead. The moral law remains and we can use the old covenant by way of general equity.

And, and so also, also the 1689 also lays out that the law existed before the covenant was given.

Right. With it transcends, it transcends it. So it, it, it, it clarifies and it says that there's three divisions of the law.

And this is where the 1689 federalists would highly disagree with the new covenant, the law theology, because they would say that this, this doesn't exist, but we would argue from a tripartite division of the law being that of the moral law that always existed.

It existed in the garden when Adam was, was there created by God. It existed because it transcends from God's nature.

God is transcendent. Thus is his law is, and that's the moral law that holds all men bound to being falling short of the glory of God and being held to be accountable to him.

Right from that. It is given to Moses officially, formally there on the mountain. It's the very person piece of scripture that is recorded for us.

And it just by God's own finger, given to Moses upon Mount Sinai, and then following that, then you have two additional things that are done ceremonial law that is given that we can clearly see in the new testament has been done away with.

So sacrificing animals circumcision, so on and so forth, ceremonial law done away with, and then underneath that also you had judicial law.

That was a multipurposed reason for that law being given in the old testament. One of the reasons that was given was it was to protect them.

So Galatians 3 that Jeff already mentioned earlier, the law was added because of the transgressions formally committed, meaning what, how could there be transgressions?

If there wasn't a law, there was a transcendent law that was being committed that was being broken. And so therefore additional law was given to hold them secure as a nation to protect them as a people to produce what until the crisis, what

Galatians says, so the whole purpose, one of the main purposes of the old testament judicial law was to protect them as a nation to bring about and protect the promised future coming seed, which was the

Christ. Once Christ comes that that law is done away with and there were other there were other physical promises that were promised through the old covenant of works, you know, that the stay in the land of Canaan to have peace to be fruitful, you know, and all that stuff.

And if they disobeyed, well, then they would be out of the land. They would be out of the land. So that's what happened in judges.

They disobeyed God. They went after idols and they they were oppressed by by a people they called back on Yahweh.

And so that's why it kept on going over and over. This graphic is awesome that Brayden made right here. Yeah. So this this is a graphic I put together.

If you want to if you want to save it, it's on my Facebook somewhere. You can dig through my pictures or you can just message

Brayden and he'll send it to you. I'm sure I can send it to you. But so right here 1689 federalism. It's just showing that the umbilical cord.

So in scripture, we have the analogy given in Revelation 12 about the woman giving birth to the seed. So that's kind of what this is playing off of.

The woman is not the same thing as the seed. They're very similar in a lot of ways, but they're not the same. They intertwine with one another in a lot of ways, but they are still distinct in nature and substance.

The Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic all give birth to the covenant of grace for different reasons.

And so I just have a different comparison here of what each one of these covenants. Can you pan out so he could see the whole thing?

Because this will ask Mr. has some questions right here talking about the re -administration to find the promise of Abraham.

So what is the substance of the promise? The substance of the covenant of grace is life in Christ.

Okay, so the substance is Christ. Okay, what's the subject? Look at the covenant of works.

They're all the way back. If you go back on your screen, the Abrahamic, these are covenant of works, the Noahic, I'm sorry, the

Adamic, right? And so that's obviously, it's all pointing, they're subservient to the new covenant and everything.

So the substance is the new covenant of grace, which is found in Christ. And I would also say too, like just to see this, if there's any work required, any work to obtain blessedness, it is by nature, it is by definition, not a covenant of grace because grace is unmerited favor, meaning you didn't do anything for it.

By definition, if a law is given, like do keep these laws, do this and live, anything like that, by definition, it is a covenant of works.

The only covenant spoken in scripture where there is no works required is

Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31, which is the covenant of grace that we were talking about. That's the whole reason.

By definition, it's different. Yeah, if you don't understand the theology of what he was just mentioning, you can look it up.

It's called law and gospel distinction. And so we believe as Reformed Baptist, you have to have a law and gospel distinction.

If you don't have a law and gospel distinction, like Doug Wilson would say, which again,

I love Doug Wilson. I'm not bashing on Doug Wilson. This is what he says. He says, it's all law and it's all gospel, right?

And it's not, it's just, it's just, it absolutely isn't. The imperative is not the indicative.

And so whenever I talk to someone and I'll say something like when

Jesus says, follow me, is that law or gospel? Well, he's telling you to do something.

So he's giving you a positive command. It's a law, right? If you're unregenerate, you cannot, you know, you cannot obey that law, right?

But if you are regenerate, you have the Holy Spirit in you. You can obey that command and follow

Christ. Now, if I was to say to you, by grace, you have been saved through faith, that is not of your own doing.

Is that law or gospel? Well, that's gospel. By grace, you have been saved. It's not something you did.

And so, and so when you read scripture, so this is a part of that, the third use of the law. We call it a flashlight.

When we read scripture, we need to read scripture in light of what Christ has done for us so that the law, as Braden would say, does not become the rope to hang us.

Amen. Yeah. So also I see that he talks about, he may be quoted to you and your seed.

So what is the seed? Okay. Well, there's a physical seed. That's what the Old Testament believers or the

Old Testament people of God were and people Israel. If you were born of natural generation and everything, that was a natural seed.

So Isaac, Ishmael, you know, all these, but then go, there's a spiritual seed as well. So what's the spiritual seed talking about?

Those are the people that are found in a new covenant Gentiles. That was the mystery that was known that it's not just the

Jews, but it's for all people. All nations will be saved. Everybody will come, or not everybody, all nations will be able to come to Christ.

Those whom he appointed unto eternal life. That's right.

All right. That graphic is incredible. Yeah. Yeah, that graphic's really good. I love it.

Yeah. Good job, Braden. You guys have told me a lot of good things so far and I understand it's really hard to like find bad things today with Braden, but you know,

I mean, you want me to point some things out for you real quick? Yeah. No, we're good. Let's continue. Jeff, you did a wonderful job on that graphic, by the way.

What? You did a great job. Yeah, I tried. It's these big hands, right? Yeah. It's just these big old hands.

You did a good job. All right. Braden Longshore, we're back.

Go ahead, Jeff. Hit play. Listen, this is teamwork.

Okay. Are we doing a minute marker or are we just playing this? Hold on. There's another question real quick,

Mr. Hudson. Okay, so Abraham was saved by grace. Okay, so just because he was saved by grace, yes, he absolutely was saved by grace and everything and through faith.

And what was the substance of his faith? The promised seed. The promised seed. So Abraham was promised a seed that would come from him that would keep the law, inherit the land, and bless the nations.

And so Abraham had to believe in the seed that would come from him that would keep the law, inherit the land, and bless the nations.

And he believed that, which is Christ. He was credited with debit. I mean, he was credited with righteousness, right?

He was looking forward to something that has not happened yet. We're looking back at the same event that has happened.

So we are debited with righteousness. That's right. And Abraham, that's very clearly clarified in Romans 4 that Abraham was justified apart from the works, but through faith in Jesus Christ, the future, the promise, right?

He was reckoned with righteousness through faith. However, it references circumcision and then

James 2 references the offering of Isaac. So there was still the aspect of which was required obedience in that covenant that produced life in the land.

Abraham, because of his faithfulness, received the faithful blessings there in the land, but it was only through faith in the coming covenant seed, the coming seed, cutting covenant of grace.

However, you want to word that to make it sound good, that's how he was reckoned with righteousness, not through the works of circumcision or offering

Isaac. That's a weird way to spell Braden, Michelle.

But yeah, I agree. Braden makes the dream work. Yeah, so let's pull up Jeremiah's real quick.

Yeah, different blood, different covenants. Jeremiah, we probably should have had you on tonight, brother.

I thought that you had, I thought your wife had you under a leash tonight. She put the dog up.

All right, y 'all ready? Oh, yeah, hit play. All right. Solid definition of this one covenant of grace, which

I define as follows. The covenant of grace is the Heavenly Father's solemn oath to man on earth of saving grace in and by Jesus Christ, conditioned upon faith, a bond in blood that constitutes an organization over into whom

God says, I'm y 'all's God and y 'all are my people. I like the brilliant second -person plural of the

Southerners there. The new covenant then is the same in substance. It being simply a new and better form of this covenant of grace just defined.

The new covenant then is the Heavenly Father's solemn and better oath to man on earth of saving grace in and by Jesus Christ, conditioned upon faith, a better bond and but better blood that constitutes a better organization over into whom

God says, I'm y 'all's God and y 'all are my people. Now, that's a stout definition, but it's warranted given the word covenant appears 284 times in the

Old Testament and 33 times in the New Testament. And I should highlight certain aspects of that definition before proceeding, three dimensions of it.

First, I've made the point that this is the Heavenly Father who covenants with man on earth. That is because the divine covenant with man is executed in history.

What is in view is not the idea of a covenant. It is not a covenant simply up in the heavens. A covenant is cut on earth.

Covenants must be established or they are not divine covenants with man. This matters because some of my 1689

Baptist brothers say that Okay, I think he's missing a point at what we believe, but I think he's going to butcher it, even though he wants hell to it, right?

It's funny how people do that. Yeah. All right. So he said that a covenant just want to make something real clear.

He said the covenant had to be cut on earth. Did I hear that wrong? No, that's what he said.

All right. Where is that? I said it was the same 315. Right? Well, it's not there. It's not there.

No. Listen, if listen, if you're a Presbyterian brother, listen,

I will I'll our church will be called covenant reform Presbyterian this week.

If you can show me in 315 Genesis 315 where that is the inauguration of the covenant of grace where it was cut didn't happen.

Yeah, where it was cut. I will bend the knee. Yeah, you will baptize babies.

Yeah, but I'll hold them under today bubble. Oh, we're not supposed to do that. Sorry, my bad.

I think they sprinkle. Yeah. So they are shooting with a squirt gun. Yeah.

He also said that it was in 355. He said that it was the same substance saying substance.

Yeah. Listen, the Paschal lamb was not Jesus Christ. That's right. But the Paschal lamb pointed to Jesus Christ.

Amen. It was a huge difference. That is that's a huge difference. They're they're messing the type anti types the two -tier typology.

Yes, huge, but he knows this. He was the one that in that encouraged

Samuel Renahan to put out that book which he put it out with founders when he was apart when he was a

Baptist. That one like I don't get how you can be a part of something and then misrepresent the something that you were once a part of right?

Well, it doesn't fit his argument. Well shouldn't argue that way.

Yeah, go ahead. The covenant of grace was never inaugurated formalized or cut on Earth in the

Old Testament. It's not happening until the new covenant itself in Christ, but this would leave

Abraham Moses David and all of our other Old Testament brothers being saved outside of God's covenant of grace, which according to them had not yet arrived on Earth yet, and I have something pretty much that position.

Yeah. All right, we done answer this question. Yes. And he's and I'm glad that we answered it earlier.

So and he said that he used to hoe to something similar to that. No, he held to that not similar to that.

So what I have pulled up here is chapter 26 of the 1689 Confession. It is on the church.

And so I would define the church just on the topic of covenant here. I would add that it is all those who are part of the covenant of grace because therefore they are saved.

And so paragraph one says this the Catholic that is Universal Church may be called invisible with respect to the internal working spirit and truth of grace.

It consists listen to this of the full number of the elect who have been are or will be gathered into one under Christ her head.

The church is the spouse the body the fullness of him who fills all in all right

Hebrews. There's several places that we go to discuss this but the point of that I'm trying to make with this.

Yeah Hebrews Hebrews. Listen Hebrews is a wonderful wonderful wonderful book, but Hebrews Hebrews 1223.

It says all those in ruled in heaven and it speaks the blood of Christ speaking a better word than the blood of Abel Abraham Moses Isaac anybody saved in the

Old Testament was a part of the church through their federal head Christ Christ before Christ was even born.

There's no other name. There's no other name under the under the heavens by which amen name if anyone is to be saved they are saved through Christ in order for Christianity to be true

Christianity has to be owed the same way that Abraham is saved is the same way. We are saved listen by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

There was a point in time that the lamb had to be born and die that this had to happen in time at some place, but it didn't happen right after the fall of Adam.

It happened several years after 2 ,000 years ago for us, right? All those saved before the cross were saved in the same exact means that the the new the

New Testament post cross Church is saved and that is through faith in the federal head Christ Jesus who cuts a covenant in time there but through his life death burial and resurrection and the people prior to that covenant being cut are credited with that same righteousness of her federal credited on credit.

Yep. Absolutely. It's just simple enough like that. And so like I don't know what else to say because in fact, let me go to chapter 26 of the tabular comparison real fast between the 1689 just see what were you send me that link to you.

I forgot it. I've sent it to you so many times guys, but I haven't figured out how to save it.

Y 'all are crazy. This is the best website ever. Look at this. So there's there's there's not a difference between the

West Minister the Savoy or the 1689 and acknowledging this so they the West Minister. I'm going to just say it up right the 1689 has the correct view of the church here and so does the

Savoy and so does the West Minister yet they're being inconsistent in their own confession, right?

The 1689 is holding that all the elector in the church all the elector part of the covenant of grace.

Right period like I don't know like is there anything else that needs to be said on this right not not that they were saved by the old covenants in the old covenant of works.

They were saved under it, but not by it. They were saved by what is the substance covenant of grace in who

Jake and who would you say Braden Christ Christ now to be fair.

They believe that you can be in the covenant and not be of the covenant. So they believe that you can be in the covenant participate in the covenant and not be born again, right?

And then again, that's where we would say, you know, you quoted it or you quoted the verse earlier from Romans 8.

I think it's verse 9 if you do not have the spirit of Christ you have no part in Christ.

That's right. That's right. And listen, we would say the exact same thing for the church. You cannot be a part of the invisible body of Christ without being born again right and having faith in Christ.

You just can't be like why would we be consistent and that's what

I understand that they would say. Well, the visible body is made of of mothers and children, right? Sure.

That's true, but we're talking the invisible all those that are actually saved and they're saying it's only the elect prior to Christ post

Christ. Yeah prior cross post cross. Why aren't we being consistent in our theology and saying that's the exact same language we should be using with the covenant.

Yeah, I don't know. It blows my mind sometimes. So right there is a huge.

Yeah, I'm going to copy this and I'll put it in the comments for everybody. That's watching on on YouTube and I'll try to put it on Facebook as well because I think it's important but we'll come back to the we're back on that now.

Yeah, let me hit play hit play when

I was a cradle Baptist second the covenants of grace and new covenant involves the creation of a constituted people theologians often use the language of administration, which means more than getting thing a to individual be like I administer lotion to my daughter's knee.

We use the word minister in the English language in that sense, but we use it in another sense as well. And that other sense is more faithful to the covenant administration idea.

This covenant administration is more like the Washington or Jefferson administration the

Washington or Jefferson administration refers to an entity of people and organization or a corporate reality.

You can be a member of such an administration or not a member of such an administration covenant membership and implies that a covenant is more than a promise to an individual.

It is an administration an organization or a League like little League membership and an administration involves rights and responsibility and none of that comes through when we conceive of a covenant as a mere promise from God to an individual third.

Can we pause that real quick? So typically in and I don't agree with him here.

I mean typically when you talk about an administration, you're talking about a way in which

God administers grace upon his people. Another word might be dispense dispense grace.

So you have the word dispensation. You have a word administration. That's why they would say this is getting ready to say amen here in a moment.

I know right? Melissa is going to be a reformed Baptist here in a little bit. So that word this dispensation that God dispenses his grace on a certain particular people at a different time.

That's where he's going with it. But he's he's defining it completely different not not in the way that God administers grace, you know, so yes, there's grace administered to two people in the

Old Testament. What is that? Absolutely. Eric is dropping some more good stuff.

Absolutely. Eric brother. I've been saying this for a while. We need to have you on here. Yeah, come on, bro.

Yeah, what's up, man? You can't hang out with us. Yeah, no, we 100 % credo.

Yes, but we just need to work on your covenant theology, Melissa. You could be a hundred percent confessional. It'd be a lot cooler too.

That's right. Credo, credo, credo. Covenantal, confessional,

Calvinistic. Cessationist, creationist.

We'll just throw all the C words in there. Christocentric. Yeah. Yeah, it's all good.

Yeah. All right, let's hit it. Wait, do you want to go ahead and fast forward to the questions where so I mean,

I think we really have pinpointed his opening statement. I think we've nailed down his opening statement, right?

Let's get some of the questions. Yeah, we'll try to end it at 1 .30.

Okay, 1 hour 16 minutes and 20 seconds. Just wait one second.

Trying, trying, trying. Get them little hands to working.

I'm trying. Those are big buttons. He's got to push.

What is that? Oh, sorry. That's a picture of us beating a dead horse. My fault. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sorry, Jason.

That's a good time to chime in on Jason not representing as well. Oh, yeah, man. We got it.

I got it. I got it. Yeah, I'll stay silent for now. If you but if y 'all watch Jason's videos, he did not represent what we said.

You want to bring that up at the end or what? Yeah, we'll just keep going right here. If we remember what minute

Mark, am I doing? 116 20. 116 20.

I'm fine with 116. All right. Yeah. But Wix gives you the power of AI to build the website.

You need. Here we go. Mark the base business functionality. All right. Oh guys, we got a lot of ass to build the website.

I'll get through it real fast for us. So you guys don't have to listen. Take the punishment for us.

Are you taking the wrath of the commercials for us? I did. Y 'all are welcome. Taking one for the team.

I let me just do another demonstration of this. This how they dispense the ads on us.

That's right. Look at Dr. White. Kind of like you,

Jeff. Gotcha. Gotcha, Jared.

Should have been a Baptist. We need a new tech boy.

Get out of here, Melissa. No, for sure. They got Brayden Patterson.

You can't ask for that. Screenshot that. Yeah. I'll start in Hebrews.

I do want to be distracting personally. But anyways, go ahead. You got all those lights back there. I want to I want to talk about you know it.

I want to talk about more than Hebrews 8 at some point, but I'll start with you first. Who does do you do you agree that the central apologetic argument in Hebrews is don't go back to the

Old Covenant because there's nothing there to go back to. There's nothing there to go back to because it has been fulfilled in the

Incarnate Life. Son of God who then by one sacrifice perfects those who are united with him.

Yeah, so it's a full argument starting all the way back in chapter 1. Yeah, man. Yeah, but you said it you said it before I've heard you and said it in your opening that kind of the central thrust is don't go back because there's nothing there to go back to.

It's like it's a collapsing house. It's not going to there's nothing there. Right? The old the the the earthly tabernacle pointed toward the heavenly tabernacle, which he has now gone through and is seated at the right hand of the

Father and all the rest of that stuff. Sure. Yeah. And would it then? I just want to say amen. A lot of people miss that.

Amen. Amen. Fit that the betterness of the

New Covenant is that it will remain. That's one of the aspects of the

New Covenant. That's not all that. It's not just that it will remain. It's who it's made in what it accomplishes and the perfection of that accomplishment.

Okay, could we get could we give it that the New Covenant remains like pride of place? Could it be kind of like could it be like the central argument is the old will not remain and the big focus of the betterness of the new is that it will remain.

Could it it doesn't have to be the soul betterness because could it be the but that's not even what the emphasis for example and right before he says the old obsolete about to pass away.

What's his emphasis? His emphasis is the covenant results in the writing of God's law upon the heart.

It internalizes that that's the language of the Old Testament circumcised. Your hearts the

Old Covenant didn't bring that about for everybody in it. The New Covenant does that's its supremacy and its betterness.

So what dr. White don't understand right here is that he's agreeing with us concerning that but you know was talking about earlier about how that covenant has ended what he just said.

There was 1989 federalism. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Like he right there.

Dr. White was being a federalist and he doesn't even know it you talking about so you can you go to Hebrews 8.

It says this is the covenant. I will make with the house of Israel, right? And this is to the church to all the both you and Gentile those in Christ Romans 2 says the

Gentiles who were not given these laws they do by nature though what those laws demanded and then right after that it says those who have been circumcised of the heart.

Why do you think it's talking about that? Because it's saying that the law of God was written on those Gentiles hearts. What he is arguing and says those who have been circumcised of the heart.

They are Jews. So so the house of Israel, right?

So exactly what James just said is a spot on the covenant of grace is full of regenerate circumcised of the heart believers in Christ Jesus and the circumcision of the heart that is regeneration.

That's right. That is Ezekiel 36 25 through 27. Yeah. Now, let me ask you something

Tom. Is there a point because I'm trying to figure out like are we going to answer the questions or like what's going on here?

So yeah, I mean, so this is as far as I go. This is just where he started questioning him and he was going to go through it.

So this is as far as I didn't know how far you guys wanted to go. So where do you want to go

Jeff? You got a time marker. I don't know. Like I saw a lot of things in his opening statement that I wanted to point out.

However, I can't remember everything now. You see my problem is that as I'm working, I'm trying to listen and write things down.

James handles him the way you just did here. James handles him throughout the whole thing.

He I mean look at me look at his face. He's nervous and James is like he's like so hello.

Yeah, you know what? Yeah, we're at a we're at a we're at 10.

So I would like to get to him asking James questions. Do you have that? Because I would like to answer because I know he's going to be coming at it from that's one of them right there.

This again. Yeah. No, no, I'm being harsh. So so I know that he mentions like in I can't remember if it's just open a statement or what but he mentions the yeah.

Okay. I can't remember the minute mark, but he talks about how his be works better with Hebrews simply because the

Hebrews has warning passages of you of being able to lose your position in the covenant.

So he's not saying that you can lose your salvation. So he's looking at the Hebrew warning passages that you can lose your position in the covenant and then he also throws in that patent that passage from Peter where it talks about the master who bought you.

Yeah, and so he does that in there and then like there's a couple of passages in Hebrews that he speaks about about it.

And then someone else talks about I think it's in John 15 where it talks about the pruning of the vine how you can be removed your vine can be removed or whatever.

Yeah, and so I was really wanting to hit on that to show that that's so we would say that those are professing believers but never in the new covenant.

Right. Well, so specifically in John, I think, you know, so Jesus is there, right?

He's there at the house of Israel and he's letting them know that a new covenant is coming right and in them as being physical descendants of Abraham in some sense like they they are they were a part of that new

I mean that old covenant the pruning takes place as this new covenant is taking place and only those that are connected to the vine the new

Jesus Christ the new covenant are going to be a part of it. And so it has absolutely nothing to do with with those in the new covenant being taken out of the new covenant.

It's speaking about those that were a part of the physical descendants of Abraham, right? They are are not necessarily taken out of the old covenant, but they have no part in the new covenant because they're not connected to the vine, which is

Christ. That's right. So so just answer Dan. Let me put it up there. I mean

Danine. Yes. Just send me a friend request. I don't have mine as like a I don't consider myself a public figure.

So there is no follow button on my Facebook page. So but yeah, watch your purse when you follow that guy.

Just yeah, he's got little hands. You can't even can't even feel that it goes in. It's not good. It's not good.

Yeah, you have to watch my testimony video is what Michelle just said. So thank you Michelle. So Matthew 21,

I already brought this up earlier. It comes right after what text the vine dresser and he says I'm taking this kingdom from this nation and giving it to another will that will be producing fruit of it.

So what is that nation? He's talking about the ethnic people of Israel is he saying I'm going to give this to the ethnic people of Israel.

No, he's saying I'm giving it to the elect this this is going to be given to the people of God all those that are a part of the federal head.

I'm giving it to you. And the reason that Christ is speaking like this is he's speaking to the Pharisees or the he's speaking in the front of Jews right there and he's saying that you are a people who have been not bearing fruit.

You've been killing the prophets. You've killed the son. You're going to kill the son. It's been taken from you and being given to another people the way that God has brought about the

Christ was through natural means which was including a nation that was often rebellious and hateful and spiteful and evil towards him.

So when Christ is right, which that absolutely right? There's there's aspects of grace in this that God kept on being he kept on bringing them back into the land.

He kept on being kind of them and why why because listen, so so God promises to Adam and Eve there in the garden.

I'm going to there's going to be a seed that crushes the head of the serpent Noah in Genesis 6. It says that there was no one righteous on the earth there all their thoughts were continually evil before him, right?

God could have wiped out everyone including Noah and would have been completely just in doing so. However, what would have been done in the process?

There would have been no promise seed left, right? God was faithful by preserving and reckoning

Noah with righteousness bringing Noah and his family the covenant remnant Noah being all the seven other people onto the ark and that's how the line of the sea kept on going.

So then you think about it. Okay. What about Abraham Abraham was a wicked man. Yeah, so he basically treated his wife as a prostitute.

He should have died. Yeah, God gave him grace. He found favor in the eyes of the Lord and unfaithful all the time.

I just preached in the book of Daniel and there's like four faithful men in all of Israel at this time. Yeah, all of Israel.

And they're all into slavery and all into captivity and if you were the devil you would be rejoicing like man, we got him.

There's no seed coming in this people. But God kept them preserved as a people by showing them this common grace to the people that continually rejected him.

So then what you just said goes back to Genesis 315.

I will put enmity between your seed and his seed and hers. Yeah. So then what does

Matthew 21 say? These Jews who I've been calling to be gathered under my wings continually, they have hated me and rejected me and they've killed the son that has been set to them.

The kingdom is going to another people. Yeah, that's right. So Ephesians chapter 2 verse 15 by abolishing in his flesh, the enmity, the law, the commandments contained in the ordinance so that he himself might create the two into one new man making peace and might reconcile them both into one body to God through the cross having put in himself put to death the enmity.

That's right. Yeah, also in Hebrews. So who was Paul writing to in Hebrews?

Hebrew. Wait, I'm sorry. Say that again. Who was Paul writing to in Hebrews? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, he was writing to Jews that have converted to Christianity. All right. So who was Peter writing to in first Peter?

So generous. Yeah, but specifically he speaks to the

Jews. Yeah, like, okay. So in both cases, all three cases, so you got

John 15, Jesus speaking to the Jews, Hebrews, Jesus speaking to the Jews, and then

Peter, the master that bought them. It might be second Peter. He who is speaking to the

Jews, right? Who have who by profession are going after Christ, but their actions, they're still looking back to temple.

That's right. They're still looking back to the old covenant, showing themselves that they've never really entered into the new covenant, right?

Like it's not that in the text that it's talking about new covenant regenerate members are being taken out of the new covenant, but it's by with profession of mouth because if you just look at, you know, a

Romans chapter Romans chapter 10 verses 9 through 10. So there's a lot of people they don't catch what's going on here.

So let me read that real quick Romans chapter 10 verses 9 and 10.

It says if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and so there's a second second thing that has happened believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved or with the heart one believes and is justified and with the mouth one confess and is saved.

There's like I know a ton of people who have professed faith in Jesus Christ and have walked away from the faith, right?

But what this is saying is is if you believe in your heart that God actually raised this

Jesus from the dead you will be saved. It's not about just professing faith, right?

It's about actually believing something that is scientifically impossible in our day right that God himself took on flesh became flesh live the perfect life died a sinner's death was buried and on the third day rose again, right?

If you will actually believe that that that belief has to be given to you. That's what regeneration is you and once you believe that you have the

Holy Spirit you're in the new covenant someone who is in the new covenant cannot be taken out of the new covenant because they have eternal life.

However, you can profess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and not believe that that's right and that's what we see taking place in John was not necessarily

John 15. So he's necessarily speaking of those in the old covenant that do not go into the new covenant.

They've been pruned but particularly speaking in Hebrews. They were professing with their mouth that Jesus is

Lord, but they were looking back at the temple. That's right, right? If they truly believe that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, they would not be looking back at the temple so on and so forth concerning the master who bought them right and one of the questions good.

I was just going to say that the the context of Hebrews really elaborates that that whole point and and we can speak as this

Jeff and I was being pastors right and and knowing people who we've seen have a profession of faith. Maybe even we've given the sign of baptism to and then years later they go and they fall away, right?

Right. We don't know all things we go off of professions, right?

The book of Hebrews is speaking to a people who have had a profession and through years of either struggling having

Judaizers try to talk to him so on and so forth. They're starting to be like man, my family is back there.

I could go if I join back in this old covenant. I could go back to my family like that's a tempting thing.

If you've suffered the sword of Christ and Paul in this is saying if you do that you're trampling upon the blood of Christ what you have and that's what he's that's all of chapter all of chapter 10 11 because he's comparing what we have today compared to the

Saints of old and then 12 and 13. He's saying you have something that is so much better though.

You might not see it though. It might not be a tangible Kingdom. You are in something that is so much better because you're with Christ and that's the whole point of this.

In fact, I would look at Jared Longshore and say if he if he's intertwining these these these texts of Hebrews and saying this is only covenant language that it's not talking about the church as being the elect like we would read what from the

Confessions. He is misreading this text completely. This is the covenant of grace is intertwined identically with the church.

And so all these passages in here that are talking about people trampling upon the blood of Christ or falling from grace or so on and so forth.

It is talking about those that have had a public professional faith and Paul is begging them. Don't go back on your public profession of faith.

So one of the questions that Ben had. Yeah, let me pull it up. Come on this one. Right? Yeah.

So one of the questions he was asked he believed that he would baptize his unbelieving wife and he said, yes, he goes.

Why would he do that? The only thing I could think of the reason where he's going with that in first Corinthians chapter 7 verse 14.

It says for the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband, which is a wrong interpretation of that.

He's basically saying that that because their spouse is a believer that they're going to be set apart in some way at the holiness that more than likely that this person be in and they would use that exact same argument for the children that if you have two believing parents that they are now qualified to be under the covenant of grace because of their parents, but this is not this is not.

I think there's some stipulations there. So like if an unbelieving wife like like let's say if Jarrett was to be, you know, agreed to baptize someone's wife, right?

That was an unbeliever or a husband and Jarrett says, are you willing to be baptized?

And they said, yes, I am willing. He would baptize them. But if Jarrett was to say or Doug or any of them was to actually say, do you believe in Jesus Christ and they say no, but I'm willing to be baptized.

I don't I don't necessarily I don't think that they were actually performed the baptism. At least

I would hope not. I thought I heard him say that they would not if they profess no faith, but if they didn't possess profess at all, if they said nothing at all, they would they would and again, you're baptizing.

You're giving somebody the the sign of the covenant before on a presumption that they will come to Christ later down the road.

Does this does this also span does that answer of saying yes, I would baptize an unbelieving wife.

Does that span from that view of federal vision with them that the that that does that come from federal vision with Doug Wilson?

Federal vision is more of a sanctification thing. I know I don't I don't I don't

I don't know that sanctified in theirs is is is not in the same way that I would

I would take how we are being sanctified in Christ. No, they would use it as set apart that they're going to be set apart and so so how did how did the how did

God people Israel? How are they set apart in a way? Well, they have the oracles of God, right?

same way his wife and kids are gonna be set apart because he's a believer he's gonna be raising them up in the nurture of the

Lord which whether you're Presbyterian Baptist or if you're assemblies of God whatever it is that you dangle with right you need to be having these gospel conversations you need to be reading the

Bible having a family worship song and so forth right and in one sense you're being set apart right absolutely 100 % what a huge bit

I mean if you're raising up your children and you're evangelizing and you're reading the Bible I mean golly

I mean just imagine you're you're sharing the gospel with your children every day and there's just the power of God into salvation where I didn't have that yeah yeah so they're being sanctified is not the same as what we talking about as we're being sanctified being conformed to the image of Christ yeah right they're being sanctified as being set apart being able to be up to be under something so glorious however that also would be condemnation to them boy yeah you know at the judgment having all that light and never come into repentance that's right so which person this is a perfect segue into this so mr.

Hudson asked a question earlier he said thank you pastors looking forward to the discussion pull it up you might have to sift through it to be able to pull it up I can let me get to it so looking forward to the discussion question

New Testament slash covenant parable was the prodigal son a participant in the covenant prior to his returning to the father it's the reason

I said this is a perfect perfect segue is that in that story the brother that never left the house when the brother returns and is welcoming and given a feast and given the father's robe the son is bitter and doesn't go into the house he had more light and yet rejected the blessings right we have to also understand that it was a parable he was talking to the

Pharisees he was talking so the I'm trying to fix it so the brother represented the

Pharisees and everything and and they were matter of fact and if you literally I don't know if you've ever heard

John MacArthur's a sermon on that but he talks about you know the brother who was jealous you know why are you giving it to this people these these these

Gentiles you know that's the representative of us being saved that the repentant sinner the people who didn't deserve it the same way the prodigal didn't deserve it he squandered everything and you're gonna dispense grace on him and not

I said dispense again administer grace on him sorry I mean she ruined it

Tom yeah ruin it you're going places you ruined it all yeah I'm sorry you squandered the inheritance wandered the inheritance so yeah so there's so there's grace on the son who didn't deserve it and and the

Jew is looking at him the self -righteous Jew is looking and what are you doing giving it to that guy

I want it all and so that's that's where that's going that's right yeah the kingdom is being taken and given to another nation producing fruit of it exactly right that's the parable amen well we're on our 31 y 'all feel like we did justice yeah talk about Jason now yeah yeah okay so Jason Brita if y 'all remember last week he he was commenting back and forth with us we was having you know and I thought that was really cool right was talking about him like like if Jared would have got on here tonight we would have you know had some interaction with him

I mean we don't but we don't mind we like that kind of stuff and if he really wanted to it would have sent him a link to get on here as we would have

Jason Brita last week right we if you've been following us for a while now we've done stuff like that right if someone has a problem they really want to get on here and discuss it we'll send them a link and you know because that open -air theology anything can happen right that's just how we wrote so he ended up doing a video on us calling him to repentance and which we did yeah which we did right to him like this is not something that we was hiding behind anyone's back or anything and so he misrepresented so first he said that that I mentioned that because because his confession had some you know because for the majority of the time we were looking at hit the confession that he sent us on salvation and so we were looking at that and picking it apart and in this video he says well it it's it words things in a way in which he wouldn't have worded it but he said he said but Jeff Rice said the same thing concerning the 1689 and and I have said that however

I would not say that concerning and and it's an important important doctrine such as salvation essential important doctrine concerning salvation with what the 1689 says about salvation

I 100 % agree with every word now speaking about things that I would work different let's just talk about like where it says that the

Pope is the Antichrist I would word that different and say the

Pope is an Antichrist not the definite article

Antichrist right which has which is not an essential doctrine to the

Christian faith right so something like that I would rework not the like I wouldn't reword anything concerning the

Trinity I wouldn't word anything concerning justification I wouldn't word anything concerning sanctification right like these essential doctrines and so so he misrepresented what

I was saying there and also he said that our attack on him had to do with the just what his view of justification now if you go back and you watch our video from last week it wasn't about justification it was about the conflation of justification and sanctification and glorification together because they actually believe if you have been justified you will what in your own walk be sanctified so your sanctification is by you walking and working by you walking and working and that's where we came down and told him that's bootstrap theology that's pat yourself on the back theology and then mentioned how that was

I can't think of the

Judaizers oh yeah absolutely yeah yeah oh who has bewitched you who do you think that you were being doesn't say that you're being sanctified in the spirit or in Galatians the

Judaizers were not saying that they didn't come to Jesus by faith yeah okay faith okay however you also have to be circumcised and become a

Jew going back real fast yeah and so you had anything to those to sanctification

I mean salvation and sanctification my dear friend you are a Judaizer so let's pull that back up real quick yeah yeah yeah so real quickly

I'll read Galatians before I zoom in on this Galatians 3 Oh foolish Galatians who has bewitched you it was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified let me ask you only this did you so Paul Paul saying let me boil down the entire part of my letter and just ask you this all right did you receive the

Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith hmm are you so foolish having begin by the

Spirit begun by the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh Wow now with that in mind let's go and read

Rosendale network of churches I'm not on the screen where I can see you guys is that visible for you guys well it's very small but go ahead and leave it though I personally cannot read it

I can't wonder can I if I do something like that yeah but you have to move with it but it's fine

I look better does that look better someone I don't know all right let me read it for you

I'll read the whole portion so this is this is this is a part of a network that Jason's a part of and again this is this is a pre -court this is salvation this is a pre -court doctrine right all right we hope it's central a central salvation is a free gift of God's grace based on the work of Jesus Christ the shedding of his blood on the cross his resurrection is present in a necessary ministry the ministry down to normal not 1 .5

though you're a fast reader who receive gods we barely graduated high school those who receive

God's gift of salvation by faith become children of God justified in their relationship to God sanctified in their walk and work and secure in an ongoing faith expressed and fostered by obedience to Christ justification yeah and listen this again what is this we're saying that they're conflating sanctification and justification it's in his own confession it's here in salvation right after talking about what we would talk about is sanctification ongoing faith right it's saying that it's expressed and fostered by obedience justification is extended to all people in regards to the endemic guilt and by personal repentance and faith in Jesus Christ and his provision regards in in regard to personal guilt wait you guys are misrepresenting him again yeah the problem is you cannot conflate justification sanctification and glorification together so so so so the way that they would put it is saved being saved to be saved yeah like those three although are together they're separate right my sanctification is not my justification right although the moment

I was justified if I would have died at that moment I would have been fully sanctified and what would be glorified and that comes a lot of that comes to you from that video that we are discussing and right winning out right which

I come that guy was a heretic through and through with that little yeah gay beard yep listen it was bad if you haven't seen that show go watch that show it was real bad but if you want to say that there's what's there is there's

Bible verses that say you have been saved that you are being saved and you will be saved sure yeah what should be the the the

Christians response I was saved by Christ I'm being saved by Christ I will be saved by Christ not

I was saved by Christ I'm being saved by myself and I'll be saved by my endurance in the future that's garbage that's the same thing the

Judaizers were saying that's where this comes from and really and justification it's being saved from the the penalty of sin it's being saved from the power of sin and it's being saved from the very presence of sin in glorification that's right yeah because once we're glorified once we resurrect from the grave there are the way that our flesh fights against our spirit will be no more that's right we will be well perfected in a will be as he is in real time yeah yeah and so that's what we were saying if you go and listen to the video that he did he totally misrepresented us and that and then what we said about our confession versus is we need to get

Jason on here send him a message hit him up well

I will if y 'all want me to well I guess that's all we got for the night any last words yeah yeah yeah

I mean I told you to put one of it with his face on it I can't do it that quick give me give me give me 10 minutes

I get that done no it was a great show again you guys good stuff hey real quick we need to know what you guys want us to do what go ahead

I had something pop of mine I'll write it down go ahead oh okay we need to know we need to know what kind of topics would you guys like us to discuss on here we want to keep it fun you guys know how we are we rag on Braden a lot cuz he's got teeny tiny hands but we can't just do a show on tiny hands you can it's just short it's small show shows yeah it's tick -tock videos yeah we could do we could do gay beard shows one so tell us what you guys want us to discuss yeah if there's a topic out there that you want us to to destroy right there's people you want us to beat up yeah bring it you're welcome

Tom I want to ask everyone to be in prayer for our church there's a an opportunity maybe that that that we're looking to get in a new building

I'm talking to the church that's receiving the deed so there is this really really beautiful church over here where I live and it was planted in 1969 and it and it just shut down June 30th it went from 200 people to seven people and these seven people were unwilling to get out and and reach the community and as y 'all know we are active in our community reaching out preaching the gospel so on and so forth and there's a really good chance that we could have an opportunity to get this beautiful building and if you know where my church is it's kind of like in a hole in a wall like you're know someone's out we're going to this karaoke spot it's a hole in a wall like this really is a hole it's right beside a bar that has a karaoke so we're right beside a tattoo parlor and we're right beside a bar and every

Sunday morning I gotta go into the church and try to get the smell of weed out of the church because people have been up partying all night and the smell has absorbed into my church and it would be great to have a building where we wouldn't have to and I had to get out there and sleep the parking lots clean up chicken bones cigarette butts beer cans like like it's just a mess every

Lord's Day morning I'm having to get out there and clean and it would just be a blessing to not have to do that stuff and to have something that actually looked like a church right and it is a beautiful church too it's a beautiful church and if y 'all could be praying that the

Lord would bless us with such a blessing I would really appreciate it yeah pray yeah so I will say

Troy said more Baptist covenant theology Melissa asked for a show about Mormons and how to reach them we can do all those things absolutely maybe next week we can do something on Mormons maybe not what

I was wanting to talk about today but I'm I'm gonna throw up I'm gonna throw up you don't make me throw up we're talking about right now don't explain it

Tom no so yeah 2x

Mormons you see look we are wanting to do a show on this this really bad scandal that's just come out about a really well -known yeah this ex -mormon ministry that that has just completely invalidated itself from a lot of things being in ministry and most likely even being considered brothers in Christ it's bad bad bad bad stuff they're not brothers in Christ they're sisters in Christ they're not even sisters in Christ they're just no yeah they're just gay they identify as sisters it's some pretty yeah yeah it's not good it's not good it wouldn't have been a good show yeah it would have been a great show

I have such a weak stomach like my wife scratches her finger and shows me and I get a pain in my butt like a literal pain in my butt and I start gagging

I'm just saying like changing like even changing diapers like I've thrown up on my kids by changing their diapers like the butt cheek like it no no if I see someone get cut or if I see

I mean like I can watch UFC all day long what butt cheek gets a nod on it is your left one or your right one

Jeff please tell it's usually my right it's like how like how people can be like oh yeah it's gonna rain

I can feel it in my bones like we can be watching a

TV show and someone gets impaled or whatever like I can't even look at it like I get sick

I got I got a really weak summit and I do get a pain in my butt I don't know what it is like right now it is what it is

I think I got a weak stomach I can't yeah yeah Braden's gonna have to go on the reformed ex -mormon to talk about that one yeah it's bad stuff please please do subscribe to this open air theology page share it around with yeah we don't understand