James White Presents The Gospel in Muslim Debates

And so it has become much more important to me to be able to emphasize, to have to emphasize that from the Christian perspective, fundamentally, God has provided for peace with himself. And he's done so in amazing fashion, in an amazing way.

When we talk about our texts of war and peace, it comes back for me to how I have peace with God. When I wake up in the morning, knowing my own heart, knowing all the duties that I left undone the day before, knowing the sins that I committed the day before of thought and deed, how can I claim to have peace with God?

What kind of arrogance is it for me to think that I have peace with a thrice holy God? The God who is surrounded by angels who say, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. Knowing how unclean I am, how can I say I have peace?

Well, that's a terrible problem, but God has provided an amazing solution. I believe that what the world needs to hear is that we can have peace with him because he has taken the initiative. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together have chosen to bring about this thing called the gospel.

My Lord and Savior gave himself voluntarily. His life was not taken from him. He laid it down of his own accord. He voluntarily laid his life down so that my sins can be imputed to him, his righteousness imputed to me, so that when I stand before a holy God, I do not stand in the good works that I have done because I know that even the good works I have done are stained with selfishness, ignorance, self-conceit.

Instead, I stand robed in the righteousness of another, a perfect righteousness that avails before that thrice holy God, and that is the only reason I have peace with God, the only reason I can stand in his presence.

This evening, I mentioned at the beginning that Abdullah and I are not trying to hide our differences. And our fundamental differences have to do with who God is and how we are to have a right relationship with him.

It is my deepest desire that every person on this planet, including every Muslim, know the peace that I know because of my relationship with Jesus Christ. I want them to hear my heart. I want them to know that I love them, I care for them.

I am thankful for men like Abdullah Al-Andalusi who are willing to stand up and say, no, that's not what I believe. This is why I believe what I believe. I stand against that. I am thankful for that.

And he knows that my deepest desire for him is that he would understand the peace that I have and share it as well. That's why we have these dialogues. Thank you very much for being here this evening.

Peace with God Through the Gospel

And this is the situation we find ourselves, and this is where there's a difference between us because we believe that man is in a fallen state. And in the fallen state, the Bible describes us as being an enmity with God.

And according to Romans chapter eight, the mind, son, and the flesh is not able to do what's pleasing to God. And that's why I said what I said in my closing statement. My only hope, knowing my heart, is the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I need a mediator. I need his righteousness. I need what only he can do for me. Was he wrong? And if he was right, what if you stand before God someday and he says to you, did you not read what I said to you?

And then he quotes Titus 2 .13, describing Jesus Christ, our great God and savior. Or he quotes John 20 .28, where Thomas recognizes that Jesus is his Lord and his God. What if he quotes those texts? What if he takes you to the book of Revelation and he shows you that picture in Revelation chapter five, where the lamb is seen standing as if slain.

And then at the end of the chapter, what happens? Every created thing in heaven and earth and under the earth and in all the seas, everything that is made, worships he who sits upon the throne and the lamb.

What if God holds you accountable the way Jesus held men accountable in that day? The scriptures teach it. The scriptures teach it. If you will simply allow it. No, don't chop it up into pieces. Don't get rid of Matthew 28.

Don't question what's being said. If you simply listen to what is there, it teaches us the doctrine of the Trinity, one God, three divine persons, the equality of those persons. It's there in front of us.

And the question is, what are you going to do with that information? My prayer, my prayer, is it God by his spirit? Yes, his lovely Holy Spirit will testify to everyone here this evening of the truth.

He gives his life upon the cross. He's raised to life upon the third day. He ascends into the presence of the father. And there he represents all those who are united by faith with him. The whole reason, my friends, that I have peace with God this evening, the whole reason that when I woke up this morning, I did not fear the wrath of God was because I know that I am in Christ.

It has nothing to do with me. That has nothing to do with what I've accomplished. Anything I try to do, I do out of love for Jesus Christ. The reason that I have peace with God is because I have one who stands in the presence of the father, who has given his life in my place.

My sin was imputed to him. His righteousness imputed to me, so that I stand in a perfect, seamless robe of righteousness before a holy God, and therefore I have true shalom with him. And the guarantee of that salvation is the fact that the one who stands before the father is the God-man.

When he gave his life on Calvary's tree, all those who would have faith in Jesus Christ united with him so that his death becomes their death, his resurrection becomes their resurrection. And you say, why would God want to become a man?

Because it is the means by which he has chosen to glorify himself in the creation of a special people in Christ Jesus. That's what Titus 2, 13 through 14 said, nearly 2 ,000 years ago. But the problem, my friends, is this.

The author of the Quran never read Titus 2, 13 and 14, and that's why we have to talk to one another. That's why I ask you, even if you disagree, listen, try to understand. Let's have this discussion, but let's actually refute the point itself.

Thank you for being here this evening. God bless. And if you read the book of Hebrews, the author of the book of Hebrews affirms over and over and over again in the plainest of language, the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To quote Hebrews in any other way is to grossly misrepresent it. Well, then how was those words fulfilled? Real simple, my friends. Jesus was saved by resurrection. That's the point of the writer of the Hebrews.

That's the point of the entire New Testament. He was heard because Jesus did not stay in the grave. He was resurrected and then exalted, the very right hand of the Father on high, so that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of the glory of God the Father.

That's the Christian message, and that is the consistency of the New Testament, and you have to simply shred it and treat it with disrespect to come to any other conclusion than that's what it says. Reject it if you will, but don't try to make it say something that it doesn't.

The Deity of Christ and the Witness of Scripture

What if John was right? What if John was right? The Gospel of John is the earliest and most widely documented of the books of the New Testament. Did you know that? The earliest fragment we have in the New Testament comes from John chapter 18, where Jesus is with Pilate, and Pilate says, what is truth?

And Jesus says, he who is of the truth hears my voice. That's the earliest fragment we have. What if it's right? What if all the liberal scholars are wrong about both John and what you believe? Because liberal scholars don't, I mean, the Quran quotes Jesus.

You will not find a single scholar that Yusuf quoted that would believe that any of the words of Jesus in the Quran were actually traceable back to Jesus. So it's that even scale thing. It's, you know, having the right scales.

And so what if John was right? What if Jesus was in the very presence of the Father for eternity past, and he was glorious? What if he is the one who created all things? That means he created you. And that means every breath of your mouth and every beat of your heart comes from his hand.

And if that's the case, he cannot be dismissed as Emir Hazul. That's why I've traveled halfway around the planet. I wanna talk with you about that. I wanna make sure you understand what John actually said and want to think about it as you leave this place this evening.

Let me again thank you for your attention. Thank you for being so kind in bringing us here this evening, allowing us to be here for this discussion. And that's why we have these debates. Do I want the man sitting behind me to hear me tonight for maybe the first time?

It's my prayer. Can I make him hear me? I can't. I can't. Can I make any of the Muslims in the audience hear me? I can't. I am dependent upon the spirit of God, but that's why I do what I do. That's why I do what I do.

I wanna hear the Christians. I want the Christians here to hear what I'm saying and be able to explain it to others that no one is able to come to Jesus Christ unless the father who sent him draws him.

John 6, 44, no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I'll raise him up on the last day. So much are we slaves of sin that we lack the capacity outside of God's gracious drawing and enablement to even come to Christ.

In fact, Jesus taught the Jews. He said in John chapter eight, some of the Jews had heard what he was saying, and he said, this guy sounds pretty good. I like him. And Jesus answered them and says, if you continue in my words, then in my disciples deed you shall know the truth.

Truth shall make you free. And they were offended when Jesus said that, and he set free. And Jesus' response to them was this. Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.

The slave does not remain in the house forever. The son remains forever. So if the son sets you free, that's Jesus speaking of himself as the son of God, you will be free indeed. The Christian message is it's the son who sets us free.

That's why the freedom we have is a perfect freedom. It's not something we can add to because it's a freedom that comes from the son of God himself. Man is held accountable for the fact that he loves his sin and he chooses to follow in its path.

If the only category we could speak of is strict justice, then there would be no hope, for none can bring about his own ransom. None can tear off the chains of slavery. But thankfully, the Bible introduces us to the category of mercy and grace, which does not undo justice.

If God were simply to wink at sin, then his law would be violated. He would be disrespected. But you see, mercy and grace transcends justice. And because of the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ, because my sins were laid upon a substitute, then his law is honored.

Freedom from Sin, Mercy, and Substitutionary Atonement

Unfortunately, I didn't hear my friend Shabir present my understanding, and I think the biblical understanding, of the role of Jesus Christ. Because here you see, who gave himself for us, it was voluntary, it was purposeful.

It was his intention, it was the whole purpose of the incarnation itself, that Jesus entered into human flesh to give himself. He said, no one takes my life from me. I give it of my own accord. It was an act of love.

Even the incarnation, according to Philippians chapter two, it says he made himself of no reputation. This was something Jesus did voluntarily out of his great love that he has for us, for men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

Who gave himself for us, for a purpose. Not so we might just go live our lives as we want to live them. Instead, notice, to redeem us from every lawless deed. There has to be something about the death that he died.

The fact that he was sinless, and we are sinful. The fact that he does this in the fulfillment of God's law, and we've done the breaking of God's law. There's something in the death of Christ that provides for redemption, for taking us out of the bonds of slavery.

We have these shackles on our arms and our hands, and because we're sinners, we can't get them off. But he comes along, he provides perfect redemption in himself to redeem us from every lawless deed. There is nothing beyond the redeeming power of Jesus Christ.

No sin, no matter how great, is beyond his power. He is a perfect savior, and I can tell you this evening, folks, I have no right to stand before you with some type of perfect man, because I am not. I am a redeemed sinner, and it is a privilege for me to be able to speak the gospel, because I know my unworthiness.

The only worthiness I will ever have to stand before a holy God is to stand in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, which is mine by faith. How can you stand before a holy God? Will he not look into your heart?

Will he not know that even when you do your good deeds, you do them with a stain of sin, you know that people are looking at you. Isn't there some arrogance? Isn't there some pride? Do you go home and treat your wife badly?

God knows all those things. The only way I'm gonna be able to stand before a holy God is if I am clothed in the righteousness of another, because my righteousness will never avail, and that's why I need to have the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

To redeem us from every lawless deed and to purify for himself a people for his own possession. Notice, his own possession. I don't have time to develop it. My time's going so quickly, but if you look at all of the phrases that is used in this verse, they go back to Yahweh in the Old Testament, redeeming a special people for himself.

These all have to do with God's redemption of the people of Israel now being fulfilled, the redemption of a people in Jesus Christ, and he is purifying for himself a people for his own possession. That means God is at work in my life to purify me.

He's conforming me to the image of Christ. He brings conviction of sin. He teaches me what it means to follow in his footsteps. But you see, folks, the reason, notice it says zealous for good deeds. Why do Christians do good works?

It's not out of fear. I'm not trying to add something to what Jesus did. His righteousness is perfect for me. It is enough for me. I'm not trying to add to his works. My friends, the reason that I do good works is because of the fact that I love God and I want to be like my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

When he saves his people, he sends his spirit into them and begins conforming them in the image of Christ. In fact, the wonderful thing is the Bible says Jesus is living his life now out in me. I'm a part of the body of Christ.

All the believers here this evening, my brothers and sisters, we are joined together by the spirit of God and that spirit of God is conforming us to the image of Christ. He is purifying us and that's why we're zealous for good deeds.

Not because we're trying to earn something from God. Not because we're trying to add something to what Jesus did. Jesus just didn't make us savable and we have to do good deeds to somehow get that. Instead, Jesus' work is absolutely sufficient for us and I do good deeds out of the love of my heart, out of my desire to show my love for the one who loved me before I took my first breath.

In fact, so intensely personal is the message of the New Testament that it tells us that we who are in Christ will unite with him in his death so that his death is our death, his burial is our burial, his resurrection is our resurrection.

We have already been seated with him in heavenly places in Christ Jesus is the message of the book of Ephesians. And so you see, when the Bible talks about doing good deeds, Shabir mentioned working out your salvation with fear and trembling.

What's the very next verse? For it is God who has worked within you both to will and to do according to his good purpose. Paul wasn't contradicting himself in any way, shape or form. I think I've sent to Shabir, I'm not sure, a 400-page long book called The God Who Justifies.

And every text that Shabir mentioned regards to Paul. Lengthy discussion of what it actually means in the original languages. I haven't given it to you yet, Shabir. I will, I promise. I'm not sure if it's in your library or not, but take a look at it.

Are you really able to do what is good in the sight of a holy God? I'm not saying can you do good in sight of other men. Our standard is pretty low. Can you do what is good in the sight of a holy, just God who can look right into your heart and see every motivation that you have?

That's the question that I would ask. And in light of that, what then is the foundation we can have to have peace with God? I say to you this evening, I have peace with God, not because of who I am, but because of who Jesus Christ is.

And I say to you that is the only way we can have true shalom with God. It's because of what Jesus Christ has done. I hope that's what we'll be able to talk about this evening. Thank you very much, Shabir.

Don't leave this place this evening and say, well, I had a really interesting time at mosque tonight. It's the first time that's ever happened. Don't leave here with just that. Please, whatever you do, take the time to consider these things.

Listen to both sides, weigh them fairly, weigh them evenly, and when you do so, I think that you'll find that the message of sin and salvation from Genesis to Revelation is a beautiful tapestry of consistent message that brings peace to those who bow the knee to Jesus Christ.

We're invited to the wedding feast. He said, go out on the highways and byways, compel them to come in. And then there's this weird aspect of the story. Jesus says, the head of the wedding comes in and he finds a man who doesn't have a wedding garment.

And what does he say? Bind the man hand and foot and cast him out into outer darkness. Why? Because you see, if you invited people into the wedding feast, you had to provide them with a wedding garment.

And if that man was there, it was because he had rejected the very means and the very provision that that person had provided. He decided to come in a different way. And Jesus's point was, there's only one way into the presence of the Father.

There is only one way of having peace with him. And we can't come up with another way. He's provided that way. And he's proven that way in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is his testimony, that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, that he was the son of God and that he accepted his sacrifice upon the cross of Calvary.

The resurrection proves God has accepted that work of Jesus Christ. That's what I proclaim to you this evening. Thank you for your attention. May God bless us all. God could call every single one of us out of existence right now and bring us into his presence and judge us for our sinfulness.

That is the Holy God of the Bible of the New Testament and the Holy God of the Bible of the Old Testament. But that same Holy God is the one who has provided a perfect way to stand before him in his perfect justice.

But there's only one way. I must be clothed in the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. That is why Jesus had to be the God man so that I could have that righteousness and stand in his presence. I have peace with God tonight, folks, not because of anything in me and not because of anything I've done, but because I am clothed in the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

And see, I'd like to talk more about that because it goes back to our view of Trinity and Tauhid. That's the real issue that we need to be dealing with. That's the direction we need to be moving in our conversations with one another.

Submit to you that this issue goes to the very heart of how it is that we have peace with God. And if you're here this evening, Muslim, Christian, maybe not know what you are, I wanna have a message for you right now.

I believe I have peace with God, not because of who I am or what I've done. I have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ has done for me. And the only way he could do for me what would allow me to stand in the presence of a Holy God is if he was the God man.

No mere prophet could give his life upon Calvary's tree because any prophet was himself a sinner and under the wrath of God. But Jesus was not, he was virgin born as we all believe. But why was he virgin born?

He did not bear that penalty of sin. And as the perfect God man, he went to the one place where all of the wrath and holiness of God could meet all of the love and compassion and mercy of God. And that's the cross of Calvary.

The cross of Calvary is a historic fact. And the person who died upon it was a historic fact as well. And you see, when I have repentance and faith, when I repent of my sins and put my faith and trust in that God man, Jesus Christ, I receive his righteousness.

And that is the only way I can ever have peace with a Holy God. And that's why this subject is so important this evening. And I say to every Muslim in this audience, if what I have said is true, and if you're honest with the arguments, you know my arguments were not even addressed, let alone refuted.

If my arguments are true, then I ask you a question. How can you leave this room this evening thinking Jesus is merely a prophet? What if I'm right? What if God has provided for you a perfect way of salvation, a perfect way of peace with him that is not based upon your doing of good deeds?

I do good deeds out of love for God, not to add something what Jesus Christ has done for me. But if Jesus Christ is your creator, if the words that were written 600 years before Muhammad are true, by him were all things made in the heavens and the earth, visible and invisible, principalities, powers, dominions, and authorities, all things are created by him and for him.

He is before all things. And in him, all things, sunestekem, they hold together. That means you, he holds you in his hand. Can you dismiss him as a mere prophet? That is the question that lay before you.

Now, this evening, we've had a lot of talk about original texts. I don't think there's any question whatsoever that any scholar could ever raise to the fact that in Colossians 2 .9, the original words that the Apostle Paul wrote to deliver to the church at Colossae was, Hati enauto katoikai, pantla tapleroma, teis theatetas somaticos.

I know of no textual variance. That is the text that was written. No one could argue otherwise. You know what those words mean? So we can talk Arabic and we can talk Hebrew. I can guarantee you my Arabic's a whole lot better than his Greek is.

But those words were what were written. There's no variation. The manuscripts are more than sufficient on any meaningful basis, any meaning historical basis, to substantiate that that's what Paul said.

You know what those words say to us tonight? Speaking of Jesus Christ, it says, for in him, all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form. You see, we can have fun talking about these things and we can get all excited, but you see what we're really dealing with is eternal truth.

And if Jesus Christ is who the New Testament says he is, then he's your maker and he's your creator and every breath you take and every beat of your heart comes from his hand and you cannot dismiss him as a mere prophet.

That God revealed himself in a special way in Jesus Christ 2 ,000 years ago. His disciples wrote down that gospel, they wrote to the churches and God has preserved that word for us. We still have what they wrote, despite the persecution, despite the deaths, we still have what they wrote.

And yes, we are very open about the fact that there are variations, but one of those variations is the original and we tell you about what all of them are so that you may hear the message of Christ. There is no other work of antiquity that comes even close to that and that to me is evidence that God has indeed spoken and preserved his word.

I cannot force you to believe that. I can simply present it to you and pray at the spirit of God who will bless you this evening. Thank you very much. And so all the questions of how can I, as a sinful human being, have peace with a holy God are answered in the God-man, Jesus Christ.

In his perfect self-giving, his life is not taken from him, he gives it voluntarily. In his perfect self-giving, he has provided for us everything we need. We have a perfect mediator. In fact, as the book of Hebrews expresses it, for Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but in the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

That's a term of substitution, in our place. And then the next chapter, therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new living way which he inaugurated for us through the veil that is his flesh.

If he was not truly man, he could not truly be our mediator. The message of Christianity is that at this very hour, the same one who walked upon the earth and who raised the dead and who opened blind eyes, that same one who was born of the Virgin Mary, who gave himself voluntarily on Calvary's cross, who then rose again the third day, that same one has entered into the very presence of the Father.

And he now presents before the Father his finished work in behalf of every single person who has faith in him. That is why I can have peace with God. It is not based upon what I do myself. I cannot work any works of righteousness that could possibly avail before a holy God.

But instead, I have a mediator. I have one who stands in the presence of the Father and he presents his finished work. He's not doing another work, a separate work. In fact, the beautiful picture of the book of Revelation is John sees a lamb standing as if slain.

His sacrifice is over. His resurrection proves that the Father has accepted his sacrifice. He's entered into the presence of the Father. And as my representative, I myself are united with him. And therefore I have forgiveness of my sins.

And the Father looks at me as if I am in Christ and I have his perfect righteousness. That's where true peace comes from. And so folks, if that's the Christian message, then the question this evening is, why couldn't God do that?

That's what the followers of Jesus proclaimed. That's what they went out. That's what gave them the strength to face the persecution of the Roman state for two and a half centuries, because they believed that their Savior was resurrected and in the very presence of God the Father.

And so why can't God do this? It's clearly the message of the New Testament. It continues the prophetic trajectory of the Old Testament. So why is it that God who creates the human nature cannot join a human nature to himself so as to provide the perfect sacrifice, the perfect mediator that gives us true and lasting peace and everlasting life?

That's the question this evening. Thank you for being here this evening as we consider it. Thank you very much. We're talking about a situation that came about in time. But we Christians realize we are saying an amazing thing.

I appreciated the last question that Abdullah asked. Don't you think God's making it a little bit hard for us? I think it's really hard for anybody to bow the knee before God and to say your ways, not mine.

I think it's hard for anyone to say I've gone the wrong direction. I repent, I return. In fact, I would say to you, it's so hard that the Bible says it's actually impossible. It's impossible without the Spirit of God changing my heart.

And in fact, the prophet Ezekiel described it as a heart of stone being taken out and me being given a heart of flesh. Now believe me, that heart of stone doesn't wanna come out. So yeah, it's tough. But when God chooses to do so by his grace and only by his Spirit, that heart of stone beats in love for the God who has been so merciful to us.

And so has God made it difficult? Well, I hope you don't think that what I'm saying is that there is some sort of set of intellectual hoops that you have to jump through to become a Christian. I hope you don't hear me saying that unless you have a perfect understanding of the hypostatic union, that there is no hope of salvation for you.

That's not what I came here to say. I think the hypostatic union is vitally important. I think it's beautiful. But you see, what makes it beautiful is it's a description of the Savior who gave his life for me.

And maybe that's, you know, we suggested some of the possible topics down the road. There's a lot of logical ones. I think the crucifixion is a really good one. Because I'll be perfectly honest with you, I think I've got the ground on that one.

From any historical perspective at all, we'd be happy to do it sometime, to enter into that particular discussion. But the reason these things are important is because from the Christian perspective, we're talking about what God has done.

Yes, to glorify himself. The whole reason of creation is wrapped up in what God has done in Jesus Christ. But also, what God has done to show his love for each one of us here this evening. The message that we have is a message of love.

I believe that the reason that the Son voluntarily submits to the Father is love. The reason the Spirit takes of Jesus' things and makes them real to his people is love. The relationship of Father, Son, and Spirit is marked by love.

And it is God's love that brought about the incarnation. Do you remember the story? I know we have a slight difference in interpretation, but of Abraham and his son. The Bible says it was Isaac. And you don't have to necessarily disagree with that, but do you remember the difficult thing that God asked Abraham to do?

I mean, that's one of the most difficult things in all of the Old Testament scriptures, is what God asked Abraham to do. And the Quran verifies that God did ask him to do that. So we're both in the same boat in trying to interpret such a difficult thing.

And yet, when you think about it, what God asked Abraham to do, to give his, the Greek term that's used there is monogamous, his unique son. Don't you think God can do more than Abraham can do? If Abraham was willing to give his unique son, then do you see why the incarnation is important?

Because you see, the incarnation means that God didn't give just one of his creatures. God's made lots of creatures. God can make human natures right and left. He has the power to do that. But you see, because of the incarnation, what we're saying is, God gave himself.

He didn't send somebody else to do it. He came himself. But even recognizing all of that, what it all comes down to, for you and I here this evening, as you walk out of this room, do you have peace with God?

None of us has any guarantee of tomorrow. You walk down a street, someone gets drunk, they drive their car onto the sidewalk and take you out. You don't even see it coming. None of us have a guarantee of tomorrow.

How do I know I have peace with God? We know God exists, both Muslims and Christians together, though we use different terms to describe it. You talk about the fitra, do the nithak, and the covenant that was taken from all of Adam's offspring, and we identify it as the image of God because we're created in the image of God, and therefore we suppress the knowledge of God.

We have different ways of saying it, but we both recognize that people know God exists, and you're gonna stand before him, and you know he's holy, and you know you're not. I need a mediator. I need a go-between.

I know I cannot provide what I need in and of myself. I can repent all day long. Even my repentance is unclean before a holy God. I need a mediator who can grab hold of me and my God, and that's what I have because of the incarnation.

May I suggest to you, my friends, the reason that we gather here this evening, and we do so out of respect. I'm very thankful that Bassam is here this evening. I hope we're gonna have a very respectful and friendly interchange, but what we believe is God's truth is directly contradictory to the other side, and we cannot compromise about that, and here you have Jesus saying, no one knows the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal him.

You see, the reason this is an important debate tonight is because if Jesus is who these ancient documents said he was, not just Amir Razul, but the very one who reveals the Father, he is the only way of having true knowledge of the Father, and that's something all the world needs to know.

That's why we're here this evening. First of all, it's assuming that only very righteous men would be chosen to be prophets. Where does that come from? That's not a biblical thing. That's not a biblical standard.

Where does that come from? That's anachronistic. That's being read back into the text and saying, well, I just don't like that the Bible is honest in the fact that God deals with sinners. Well, you know something, folks?

If he didn't deal with sinners, he wouldn't be dealing with any one of us, and I suggest to you that anyone who can look into his own heart and not see the thoughts of lust and violence and everything else that dwell in that heart and recognize that people of old, thankfully, were used by God despite the fact that they encountered that kind of sin in their life, means that we're not looking very closely at our own hearts.