“Islam and Friends” Makes Stuff Up

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of alpha to make a ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white. Thank you, Marty.

Opening Remarks and Upcoming Debates

Welcome to the dividing line lots to get to today. Let's dive right into it. Please keep in mind a week from Thursday University of Illinois in the Champaign-Urbana area. Debate with Dan Barker. It does the triune God of the triune God of Scripture lives very much looking forward to that and getting word of possibility of Multiple other debates with Dan Barker in September.

So we will keep you apprised of that as well. I think it's useful to go over these things given how much press Those who oppose Christian faith get today. But before we get back to Dan and to his objections of the Christian faith and giving a response to them.

Critiquing Islam and Friends’ Misrepresentation of Debates

I Ran across was directed to a audio from Islam and friends now, this is a fellow that I responded to quite some time ago I didn't go back to look at the video, but That what he was the one who was promoting should barely destroys Christianity in 55 seconds and we reviewed that and demonstrate that it wasn't anything like that.

At least he's an interesting study in how completely prejudiced someone can be in listening to something and how you can just not Even hear what's actually going on because you're not listening up many times.

I've told people look I know when I go into debate, there's certain people on my side They're not gonna hear a word. The other side has to say and I'm not condoning that but I recognize it's the case.

And there are people on the other side that are not going to hear a word. I have to say it doesn't matter I could stand on my head and They are not gonna hear a word. I have to say nothing and There's nothing I can do about that.

That's that's that's just the way it is. And So here is someone good example of that I don't have them yet. I had been promised them two weeks ago the videos of the London debates, but I Did I not I thought for certain I sent an mp3 of?

At least the Sami Zaatari debate back to you Here in Phoenix, but I'll have to look I was gonna cue that up. I just didn't get to it. I apologize too many things going on This week, but I was gonna cue it up so we could compare the two and I completely forgot to do it my apologies to you, but I know that at least the closing statements are available on YouTube because I put them I think the entire things on YouTube from somebody else's one of the audience cams, but not the professional version of it, but I Was directed to this discussion of two things.

First of all a discussion of the brother Imram non-debate now what happened was three four or five months ago and Evidently these folks don't realize who's who on our side of the fence, which is understandable I don't spend my time figuring out who's related to who on the Islamic side I mean, I have some idea of who you know sees Shabir Ali as a good apologist or suit who sees Osama Abdullah as a Good apologist or whatever and so They sort of mishmash us all together and so David Wood becomes me and I become David Wood and and That that's compliment to me David's David's fine man Nabil Qureshi great brother in the Lord.

But they do their thing and I do mine and sometimes we get together and we get to do it together. And that's very encouraging to me. Hopefully it's encouraging to them. I think they do a great job, but they're a little bit more focused in the debates that they do.

I'm I'm doing a wide variety of things though. I think I think David would probably enjoy the debates I'm doing with Dan Barker. And in fact, I hope both David and and Nabil Enjoy the debates and I'm doing this next week because we've had some discussions about apologetic methodology and and things like that anyway.

But they seem to think that Arabic Christian perspective me David we're all just one mishmash of things when in reality were three different ministries that cooperate together, you know I've been very happy to Do everything I can to be of assistance in those places and they've been assistance to us and we work together in those ways.

But we are different ministries and I remember getting an email. I think it came from David Wood. I didn't go back and look about Basically Zakir Naik's apprentice a man by the name of brother Imran Was gonna come to the United States and would I be willing to debate him?

Of course be happy to I'd debate Zakir Naik and any day if he was willing to do so. No problem at all. But that was the extent of the conversation. We were never contacted by anybody from India or anything like that.

All I got was an email said hey if this guy came to the United States. Would you be well if you know, would you be willing to debate the guy? Sure. So that's the background of this first section evidently.

They they assume that because we've done major things with someone like a Bart Ehrman we've done major things with Shabbir Ali those big conferences where we've got a cruise and a conference and and You know, that's when Michael Fallon steps in and his expertise makes all those things happen.

That that's that we've just got money lying around. They don't seem to realize the only way we can do things like that is because we've got something like a cruise going on that Generates a small amount of money.

You know the hotel nights at a place, you know, that's how you make those things work. We don't have that kind of money just laying around be flying people around and doing stuff. There's got to be this, you know, it's a huge huge effort.

That's why we don't do it all that often is because it takes a tremendous amount of work a tremendous amount of money. So it takes a lot of cooperation, etc, etc. So you put all that together. There's the background.

Let's let's listen to. The fellow from Islam and friends as he comments about this and then we'll transition into his comments on the Sani.

Zatari debate. I think you'll find this interesting you guys remember. I don't know. I'm guessing it was like three four months ago we were trying to set up a debate between brother Imran and James White and Here's the here's the way everything works as far as or worked as far as I understood it James White in his camp.

They had a reputation for Hosting events so they would fly people to debates and they would handle all the expenses. So we contacted brother Imran's camp, he's in India and They said he would be willing to come to the debate as long as James White's people, you know took care of everything.

They Paid for the flight the hotel saved the works. So James White's camp said they're not willing to do that. They would I think they said they would get the venue but Imran's team would have to pay for everything else.

Okay, I just stop right now.

I have no idea where this guy's coming up with this stuff. No one ever talked to us. They may talk to you rich. No, and how many staff members there are Alpha Omega ministries? Two that's us. That's right.

So if you didn't do it and I didn't do it then nobody from our ministry. Okay, no, we we this is an interesting you had heard this money guy around here and I'm like lie somebody from India Might be able to get him to London.

One way one way that's right. And then no place to stay after that. Yeah unwilling goodness gracious. I. This guy just comes up with stuff, I don't know where it comes from. But hey that that's that's what I said.

And it was kind of odd because number one, like I said, they had the reputation for normally hosting these type of.

Events why I the only thing I could figure is We've we've once flown Shabir to Seattle. For the and that was before a cruise at a conference in a cruise. That was that was a flight from where to Seattle.

Yeah, Toronto Toronto Toronto's in Seattle, not quite. Now I see what he's gonna say here is well James has said he'd be willing to go to India. I've said that if soccer Nike was willing to debate now.

That was before people told me it was constitutionally illegal for a Christian to do that in India anyways, which is a little bit different, but my the point that I've always made is I am more than happy to debate soccer Nike because When I listen to the man's presentations, he doesn't know the biblical languages.

He doesn't know biblical history. I do not consider him to be a great challenge against Christianity at all. I know that I know the Muslims do but I'm sorry, I'm not impressed simply repeating Ahmadi dots many many many many many simplistic errors is not the same as presenting a meaningful case and So he's gonna take that's it.

Well, if you'd be willing to fly to India, then why wouldn't you be able to fly him over here to which I would say Well, if if something were to work out to where for example soccer Nike would should be in London and was willing to debate in London, what would we do?

We'd put out a call to our people and we'd say we want to get to London and We need to raise the funds to do it and that's what we do about it. But again, no one talked to us. This is all just made-up stuff.

I don't know what in the world this guy is talking about, but he certainly presented as if it was somehow a fact. On my camp is made up of two people and the two people who are currently on the microphones right now.

And we didn't talk to nobody and nobody talked to us and said would you be willing to fly brother Imram out and blah blah blah? Blah blah. So, you know, it's it's just make stuff up as you as you fly, but number two.

They said that they would be willing to fly out to India. So I'm like if you're gonna pay the expense to come out there Why don't you guys just pay the expense to bring him here? Well, whatever right?

So the talks failed at that point and nothing happened and nothing happened indeed now, so why.

Did this not happen? You're ready now. Those of you who maybe have gone on YouTube We like I said, we hope to have the professional taping available soon. But I debated Sammy's authority on the deity of Christ at Trinity Road Chapel in London in November and it It was not an enjoyable debate.

I don't enjoy debating Sammy's authority because he's just not an enjoyable person to debate. He's he doesn't provide much of a challenge on a scholarly level. Certainly he doesn't interact what you're saying.

He doesn't understand Christianity very well so his arguments are frequently require you to do a lot of basic explanation of things and You know, I I think it's pretty obvious. I think Sam Shamoon has has posted a review of the debate.

He's listened to it and I don't think that that almost any rational person is going to say that this was some Smackdown on that where I was somehow crushed but I Don't know. Listen listen to what this guy has to say few months after that.

Brother Sammy's a tree. Mind you Sammy's actually is like 22 years old, right? He debates James White and I think this debate took place in the UK. Sammy's actually Annihilates James White. He he mops the floor with him.

Okay now keep in mind like I said a 22 year old kid going up against the guy with a doctorate a list of credentials a mile long and Some 22 year old kid will not some. I mean Sammy is a talented guy when it comes to debating.

But still a 22 year old kid comes out of nowhere effortlessly just demolishes you. Now, I remember this is the same fellow who you know wears.

1950 style leather grease jackets. To debates. Okay, and I Really wish I had the and again, I might have it on my on my Mac. I just didn't get a chance this morning to look for it. I had other things going on, but especially the cross-examination period where He I kept asking him direct questions.

He wanted to make claims based on the original languages. If there was a smackdown it was but it wasn't me that was smackdown and I don't think any logical or rational person. But again, this is an illustration of the people at a debate or listen to a debate that are never gonna hear a word.

I have to say I Don't believe anyone who is in the middle of that spectrum would think that this guy listened the same debate they did. That's for certain, but it is it is funny to listen to this kind of Reading of what actually took place so.

The other day I get an email telling me that James White's team. Apparently I'm guessing this is either James White's team or David Wood or whatever, but or whatever.

I just you know, I wish I could keep up with what everyone's doing. I know Sam just had debate recently. I'm looking forward to hearing it, but I didn't know it was happening. And I know that I just saw on the web that either Nabil or David I think was David just had a debate.

I don't even know who he debated. Never even. They don't contact me and tell me who they're debating or who they're talking to debate or anything like that. They may think that's what's going on, but that's not happening.

So again, just making this stuff. Well, whoever it was. And then and then on the basis of that. You then assert that that other people are hiding or they're in damage control and stuff like this. And he's about to say that well the last debate white did was a Sammy's Autry.

And so we should just let that stand and he's been old refuted and stuff. That wasn't the last debate I did. I did. The debates with Shabir Ali In the UK after Sammy's Autry and I debated Zulfikar Ali Shah at Duke University after Sammy's Autry.

This guy doesn't even know that. It's amazing how much time you can get out of pure ignorance without without having any facts at all.

They were willing now to pay and host the debate with brother Imran. For him to come out here, and I haven't talked to Imran's camp, but I'm thinking to myself. And this is just my personal speculation that they have to be doing this to try to save face.

Because here you have like your big guy. Your big Christian guy James white dr. White blah blah blah blah blah. Who gets his rear end handed to him by a 22 year old kid? Who does it easily? So now I'm thinking okay now, they're they're desperate.

They want to save face really badly and Now obviously they're willing to cough up the dough to have Imran come out there, so I don't know I told The brother that told me about this to talk to Imran's camp and see what happens.

But you know I don't think Imran should go for it. I think Sammy's Autry did a tremendous amount of damage to James white and They took a big hit from a business point of view I guess if you can call it a business, and there's stocks to put this in business.

Went down tremendously. And I think we should just leave it at that like your last debate. Was you getting annihilated by a 22 year old and that's it we're not helping you out anymore and just leave them with.

With this reputation that Sammy's after he just demolished him and just leave him stagnant. That's what I would do yeah.

It's not like I was debating Bart Ehrman or anybody else during that time or or ACS right like that. No. It's a little bit entertaining actually I had some more, but that's enough to give you a good a good taste of some of the Really weird stuff you encounter on the web just completely disconnected from reality.

You know let's just make it up as we go along. It does really really really honestly Make you wonder just just a little bit. Well anyways. I do want to get back to the issue Dan Barker and atheism and so on so forth but before we do that We do have a phone call that I am under orders from a higher authority to take Right out the beginning because he he outranks me.

Dan Barker, Atheism, and the Meaning of Morality

Let's talk with rich. I rich.

Hey, I was just talking to your entourage before getting on the entourage. Yeah I think that's better than a posse entourage. It sounds more sophisticated.

Yes, well, but the problem is entourage in almost every lexical use would be used as a plural there and. So unless rich has developed multiple personality disorder.

He's he's the only guy in the entourage. Yeah, I guess that would only work if he's a modalist or something. You know I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Dan Barker. And I don't really want to give you advice, but just my own Observations after listening to him debate a few times.

Yeah, Paul Minard, and I Are friends and I still remember the debate. I think Paul handled him pretty well In his debate, but I had noticed the first time I had sort of gotten into precept of Presuppositional ism.

I had listened to the great debate and then shortly thereafter there was another debate in which I Guess one of the heirs of Bonson in that area in the Southern, California area had done a recent debate with Barker.

Yes, I've heard it was interesting that I Kind of it it what was interesting to me was that Barker? At the time he never really sort of engaged meaningfully on any intellectual level the way say a Gordon Stein would and And I think that that that what his his his Debating style is more of a popular level kind of doesn't really want to get into any kind of hard intellectual things.

But likes to take the little easy shots and kind of get it get in and get out and if it's going to require any kind of meaningful Intellectual dialogue, then that's not really his thing in fact I really don't see why for debate because he never really offers anything very profound.

He just kind of offers snippets, and I think he just appeals to sort of the popular I hate Christianity kind of level in in atheist if you know what I mean well obviously as a as a convert.

He's a celebrity along those lines and for some reason people really like these celebrity converts mantra. Sometimes that's a good thing sometimes a bad thing now. I I know that his book godless. He does try to get into some of those issues.

I Noticed that he doesn't generally do that in his debates. He did try to at least engage somewhat with with with Paul in their debate on the infidel guy radio broadcast or whatever whatever it was. But generally he does seem to prefer and I've noted in The arrangements for this debate he does prefer more of the soundbite type exchange because that obviously favors his side.

I had to basically make a defense of even having a 20-minute opening statement to keep that in the in the debate. So I think he does recognize that that is more effective, and I think that comes from the fact that he's still a.

Fundamentalist evangelical in his thinking even though now he's gonna say that in fact we kind of joked after the last debate. Where you know, it's sort of this absurd thing. Where where a few times he has to admit that we're no more meaningful than broccoli in the in the debate.

We're pretty much cosmic broccoli, you know, no no more meaningful than cosmic broccoli but then he ends his whole debate with sort of what I call sort of an a. You know an a an altar call and all you need to do is have the the music going where he talks about right now.

We have meaning and stuff like that. And it's it's sort of like you can picture him just kind of changing. You know, it just don't moving from one sort of emotionalistic religion to another. Neither with neither of which were Christianity, but sort of, you know tugged on the heartstrings kind of thing.

You're broccoli, but right now you mean more than broccoli, but ultimately you mean nothing then brought nothing more than broccoli. But believe it now because you know, we we assign this to ourselves, you know and so I think that the more you can do to kind of Push him into the realm of absurd.

You're probably going to be you know, which is probably your goal.

Well, yeah, I mean, I I've got a really good idea where I'm going. I have listened to all of those debates. There may be some debates out there I just haven't found but I've listened to the one with with Paul more than once I've listened to Obviously the Wilson debate number of times I have those queued up here.

Actually, there were two Wilson debates and I've got parts of that queued up here. So I've I've heard him taking on evidentialists. I've heard him taking on presuppositionalists. You know, I know exactly where he's gonna go as long as he's consistent you know, I've got godless right here next to me and and you know, I know where he's going and obviously one of the points that I want to make is the the Fundamental absurdity and emptiness of the worldview that he promotes, right?

He's a pure functionalist morality exists only long as long as the the brain's cells and his between his ears are functioning evidently. What is true and what is honest and what is just and was lovely stops being those things while he's unconscious.

So when he's asleep evidently even the laws of logic are suspended. And of course when he dies, they're gonna be suspended suspended forever. And I'm gonna I'm gonna make the point that I'm again, I'm assuming he's listening to these because It strikes me that he does his he does do some homework and he he and I have encountered each other many many years ago so when I Speak to him.

I I want to emphasize the fact that he is extremely inconsistent with his own worldview he still is not only very emotional, but He believes there's such thing as beauty he believes he loves jazz piano and what I understand he's an extremely talented pianist and I want to make sure that audience understands that the beauty of a Beethoven piano sonata or the beauty of even Dan Barker's jazz piano Is beautiful even after he goes to sleep it's going to be beautiful even after he's dead and it's not just a matter of The functionalism of a brain that he he cannot account for why that is true within his own worldview and right and he's not.

He isn't does not self-consciously try to avoid Saying things that will contradict his own worldview. He's he who could I mean, you know, so Yeah, I've got some some pretty good ideas of which directions I want to go and and you know Obviously, it's never as long as you'd like it to be especially in right in a university setting they try to keep them pretty short, but like I said, there's some possibilities of some others in September that have come up and so the one thing is Yes, there are times when he clearly wants to try to inflame emotion where you know Tells God to go to hell and things like that.

He tries to get Christians upset at that point, but he's not like a lot of the atheists out there. He can you know engage in a debate without spitting at you and throwing things across the stage and things like that.

So that that makes it a little bit More profitable than some of the people that you might you might engage who are just beyond the level of nasty.

Yeah, well, yeah far be it for me, too. I mean, I'm not trying to. I'm sure you're prepared. I just wanted to offer those observations such as they were and and try and help you out as. Anyway, I could from a few times.

I've listened to him debate. I just he just doesn't come across as a very serious Philosopher in a lot of cases he I think he's popular because of the way that he interacts with folks. But yeah, I wish you well in that and I hope that I'm looking forward to hearing it afterwards.

Okay? I'm looking forward to.

The debate myself and hoping that we can get a good taping of it for everybody to listen to you later on. Okay, great. Thanks a lot. All right. God bless. All right. Let's get back into this. I had mentioned the last time This email that I had discovered from 1997 were evidently it's a guy named Ralph had informed Dan Barker about Doug Wilson's being involved in this this jury pool in this jury in a capital murder case and I guess it was feral till who afterwards was asking where can I get the cassette?

So this guy named Ralph? That had to provide this information and how Dan had been willing to use that and to make it look like he was asking Serious questions when it was just he was just guiding him into this to try to make these these accusations against the Bible and in the process It was funny to me, let me see if I can find.

Let me see here. I believe it's right here. I believe let me check this out. I believe the next alleged contradiction in The contradiction list we've been looking at and and Dan makes reference to this list more than once it's in his writings.

And he's using it in in his debates as well. I think the next one is The one about murder and kill let's let me just play it here and let's see. So there's one of his Favorite accusations along those lines is that the Bible is contradicting itself at the point of kill or murder now.

In reading godless I ran across the section where he talked about the various debates that he has done and he talks about his encounter with Doug Wilson and like I said last time it is really interesting to listen to his own take about His encounter with with with Doug Wilson, I read you some of the email last time.

Where he said it was, you know, a real smackdown. It went real well, etc, etc I was very prepared I Got Wilson to contradict himself blatantly a number of times. I was shocked about Wilson's attitude regarding morality, etc, etc.

Let's listen again to what I thought was one of the most fascinating exchanges and that was where again Dan Dan was pushing this idea that the Bible's contradictory on the subject of murder and the subject of killing and this was during the cross-examination period.

Should we own slaves? Whoops, it would help if I was on the right one. There we go. Double-click. There we go. Let's try it again.

But what if one of the verses was reading the Bible verse that says thou shalt not kill. And another person was reading the Bible verse where God said take up the sword and slay every man his his neighbor.

And what if they read two different contradictory Bible verses that would explain why the humans can't agree. Because the Bible is inherently contradictory, right? He can't answer the question. Answer the question.

There are two different words in Greek for One is killing and one is murder and in the Greek translation of the Old Testament The prohibition in the Ten Commandments is of murder not of killing. Exodus 20 says you shall not commit murder.

Exodus 21 requires the death penalty if you do commit murder.

Now just in passing oof on you size is the Greek translation. And fun you size clearly needs to deprive a person of life by illegal intentional killing to murder to commit murder. I was just reading from the low need a Greek lexicon at that point.

That is what the Greek term means. And and notice that Doug was very clear. He was talking about the septuagint translation there the Greek translation of the Old Testament.

Because you were a gentleman scholar I would be happy to know what question would you like me? To. The Hebrew word there is rucksack in the Old Testament. Which is not the word for murder is used all throughout the Old Testament for simple killing for accidental homicide for people accidentally.

Negligence. You were wrong to suggest that the Ten Commandments prohibit murder only.

Now let me just stop right there. I don't know how many times I have heard Dan say this now I have heard him specifically say that sock does not mean murder. That is wrong. Wr-ong he cannot read Hebrew.

He does not know what he's talking about. There are look look at almost any lexical source the halo. H a lot. You can look at Brown driver Briggs you can look at any of them. They will tell you especially the PL form specifically means murder.

Now can it mean just simply slaying. Yes, it has a wider semantic domain. But he is denying that part of the semantic domain of rat sock is to murder, and he's wrong. It's just he doesn't know what he's talking about and This is where I think maybe I can bring something that a lot of people he's debated in the past.

Can't I can look at him and say you're wrong, and here's why and here's the lexical sources. Especially when he's debating primarily philosophers. They're not comfortable. Being quite that bold that's straightforward and Most of them haven't actually taught the biblical languages in the past at some point in their lives.

And so they they don't want to make that kind of statement. But I've listened what the man has to has to say. I look at the lexical sources, and he's wrong. He's he's just simply playing fast and loose the facts, and he's not to get away with that In in dealing with the biblical text in in dealing with me, so if Dan if you're listening you're wrong.

But sock can mean murder it does mean murder in numerous places in its usage and in fact the focus if you will look at the the triliteral root is upon specifically murder and only by Extension does it come to have other meanings it means manslaughter?

Specifically because it's also used in numbers for the refuge cities for the man who unintentionally takes a human life. But the focus is upon the taking of the human life and in most of those contexts.

It's murder and the Greek translators of the Septuagint understood that and That's why they used oof on use fun you size in the the text in the tank man. So we'll continue with that exchange between Doug Wilson and Dan Barker other things along those lines here on the dividing line right after this break.

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Thank you. And we'll come back to the dividing line. Let's keep going here real quick. I wanted to continue this exchange between Doug Wilson and Dan Barker on murder, then we'll take our call.

Okay. The point that I said I was talking about the Greek New Testament that commandment in Exodus 20 is quoted in the New Testament Greek has a word for murder and a word for killing. When the Old Testament is quoted in Greek It has the word for murder out of the Ten Commandments.

So the Greek group the Greek translator group because the Hebrew scriptures does not say murder. Now see that that's where he's wrong.