September 9, 2019 Show with Andrew Smith on “Calvin’s Return to Geneva from His Exile (Why This Date in History is Significant)”

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September 10, 2019

September 9, 2019 ANDREW SMITH, pastor of Christ Reformed Community Church, Saint Augustine, FL, who will address: “CALVIN’s RETURN to GENEVA From His EXILE (Why This Date in History is Significant)”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,
01:00: Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.
01:15: We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 19th,
01:24: I'm sorry, this ninth day of September, 2019, and it's my honor and privilege today to have back as a returning guest,
01:34: Pastor Andrew Smith. I believe the only other time he was on the program is when he came to visit the
01:40: Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth at one of the G3 conferences at the
01:45: Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which I will be announcing again momentarily, but this would be his first time actually on the live show, to my memory.
01:59: He is pastor of Christ Reform Community Church in St. Augustine, Florida, and today we are going to be addressing
02:06: Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile and why this date in history is significant.
02:12: In fact, it is our hope that Andrew and I will address a relative or a significant date in history every month from the calendar, something that he has grown fond of doing, commemorating special dates in history, and we hope to do that on this program starting today and continuing it as long as God would be pleased for us to do so.
02:43: But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Andrew Smith. Thank you so much,
02:50: Chris, this is such a privilege to be on the show again, thank you. And was
02:55: I correct in my memory that this is your first live show with us? Yes, that is correct. Well, what
03:02: I'd like you to do is, since this is your first live interview with us, I'd like you to give a summary of your salvation testimony, which is a tradition we have here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, typically with first -time guests, but since you're a first -time live guest, that will include you in this tradition, so if you could.
03:22: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I grew up by God's grace in a Christian home. I come from several generations of not only
03:30: Christians, but also several pastors in my family, including two great -great -grandfathers, and was born and raised in the state of West Virginia, and grew up there, and I remember very vividly the first time that the
03:47: Gospel actually made sense to me. I was about four, maybe five years old, and was actually, of all things, watching a preacher on TV, and it wasn't a prosperity preacher, it was,
04:02: I think, someone local, and I heard the Gospel. I wasn't even in school yet, and I remember turning to my mother and asking her to explain to me in more detail
04:12: God's plan to save sinners, and so my mother got on the floor, set
04:18: Indian style with me, and began to share the Gospel and go through the Scriptures with me, and that was really the first time, as a very young child, that the
04:28: Gospel resonated with me. I knew I was a sinner, I knew that I was disobedient to my parents,
04:34: I knew that I had a tendency to fight with my siblings, but even this elementary understanding,
04:40: I guess you could say, of sin was very real to me, and I was very convicted over my sin, and so was baptized shortly thereafter, and continued in the church.
04:53: My parents were heavily involved, my mother typically played the piano and was part of the choir, my father was a deacon, he taught
05:01: Sunday school, he drove the church bus. My family actually even would clean the church on the weekends as a ministry, and so I grew up in that environment within the church, and began to grow in my theology.
05:17: My father is a reader of history, he's a reader of theology, and had a very great influence on me as a young teenager, with particular reference to the doctrines of grace, because not all of the churches that I was in, and we moved around a little bit because my father was an air traffic controller, although all the churches we were in preached the
05:40: Gospel faithfully, not all of them held to the doctrines of grace. There was even one church in particular that the elder board was divided, there were some
05:49: Calvinists and there were some more Arminian -leading people, and so this took my father in a search, in a quest, to understand what the
05:57: Bible taught, and I remember debating with my dad as a very young teenager, and of course he had already adopted the doctrines of grace, and I was showing some resistance, but by God's grace, by the time
06:10: I was in college, my junior year, I had fully embraced the doctrines of grace, and was already planning on going into the ministry.
06:20: I actually had, I think, an internal calling to preach the Word of God from about the age of 8 years old, and that calling stayed with me throughout, until I decided to enter seminary and be serious about the matter of going into the ministry, and so I can't say enough about how
06:40: God's grace and mercy was upon me from a very young child. I don't remember a time that I didn't believe in the
06:46: Lord, I don't remember a time that I did not believe the Scriptures were exactly what they say they are, which is the authoritative
06:52: Word of God, and I hardly remember a time that I didn't know
06:58: Christ, although that moment when I was 4 or 5 was when the conviction of sin and repentance by the power of the
07:06: Holy Spirit started bearing some fruit in my life. Well parents listening, with little tiny children running around the house, it is possible for God to get a hold of a child that young, 4 or 5 years old, and bring that child to eternal life and produce genuine and believable signs of repentance and faith in a child that young.
07:39: Even my dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, I think he was not much older than you were when you were saved, he was certainly a pre -teen,
07:50: I think he may have been somewhere about 8 years old, maybe younger, but it's really remarkable that your mind, by God's grace, was able to comprehend these things.
08:00: I just remember at that age playing in the dirt with toy trucks and not even having a concern in the world about whether or not the death of Christ applied to my sins or not.
08:13: Well, yeah, and Chris, I don't want to romanticize my testimony, it's almost embarrassing to even share because I think a lot of people might be apprehensive to, you know, how could a 4 year old really grasp these things and understand these things?
08:30: But I really believe it's a testimony to the power of God's sovereignty and salvation. And I just know for me, it's not that I wasn't a smarter kid or there was anything exceptional about me,
08:43: I enjoyed playing in the dirt and doing those things as well, but it's just my testimony that I remember the extreme weight of my sin and I remember being fearful of God's judgment.
08:55: And to me, that was huge. I mean, I had tremendous love for my parents and obviously saw that they were
09:03: Christians and following the Lord and their consistency in teaching the
09:08: Word of God in the home and taking me to church. I just, to me, it was a very real thing from the very, very, very beginning and that's all the glory goes to the
09:18: Lord and if there's any glory left over, my parents get some credit, but I certainly get zero credit because I was a depraved sinner in need of mercy like anyone else.
09:31: I don't want to take too much time off of our subject, but there is, as you may be fully aware, even amongst
09:39: Reformed Baptists, a dispute over early baptisms.
09:47: Most Reformed Baptists are opposed and are in opposition to very vociferously the nominal
10:00: Christianity that exists in our country, perhaps even predominantly in the
10:06: Bible Belt. And even many of my Calvinist pastor friends in the
10:12: Southern Baptist Convention will fully admit and lament over the fact that their typical experience, not in their own churches since they are confessionally
10:27: Reformed and so on, but what they have witnessed in the Southern Baptist Convention and other churches and denominations in the
10:33: Bible Belt especially, is that when a child reaches a certain age, perhaps even older than you were, 12 or so, they will be automatically assumed to be candidates for baptism just because of their age and because they were raised in a
10:52: Christian home, so they must be Christian. They really are, in essence, Paedo -Baptists, except they wait a few years after the baby is born and baptize that baby regardless of if there's any realistic, believable signs of genuine repentance and faith in that child.
11:11: And so I'm asking you, do you think that in spite of your experience, do you think that Christian parents and churches need to be very cautious about baptizing very young children and accepting them as genuine converts?
11:31: Yeah, that is a major concern of mine. I currently pastor an independent
11:37: Reformed church, but that's not always been the case. I've pastored Southern Baptist churches, and one church in particular, there was a very large contingency of people there that were simply not saved.
11:50: They were not regenerate, and I would include in that even some of the leadership clearly was not saved, and the result of sort of having children walk down an aisle after VBS because they've made a profession of faith and the pastor essentially asking no questions and basically having a numbers game and bringing these people into the church is not only dangerous, but it's unbiblical.
12:17: And so I think that definitely the pendulum has swung in our own day to this easy -believism mentality, and we need to be very wary of that.
12:28: I think on the other hand, you bring up an excellent point, Chris, when you speak about paedo -baptism, and you say that because this is not merely a problem with Baptists, this is a problem with paedo -Baptists, or Presbyterians, that our
12:41: Presbyterian brothers, we love them dearly, but they're not immune to the idea of a child going through confirmation classes and knowing the catechism, and some churches are guilty of just rubber -stamping that process instead of truly searching out whether or not this child is bearing the fruits of faith and repentance.
13:01: Yeah, and many paedo -Baptist churches, and as you just said, we love our paedo -Baptist brethren,
13:08: I probably interview just as many, if not more, paedo -Baptists on my show than I do
13:13: Baptists, just because I think more paedo -Baptists are getting books published. And I consider some of my most brilliant and godly friends and brethren are among the paedo -Baptists.
13:29: But it seems that in some churches, the child would actually have to commit armed robbery or burn the church down before they would be considered an unregenerate person.
13:43: You actually, in some cases, have to be an overt enemy of Christ and a scandalous, unrepentant believer to be viewed that way.
13:55: If somebody is just apathetic and unexcited about his faith, and, you know, in many other circles might be considered just a nominal
14:09: Christian, the paedo -Baptist very often, not all the time, but very often would be hard -pressed to question the regeneration in such a person.
14:19: Yeah, I think that, you know, it's not merely a Baptist problem, and it's not merely a
14:26: Presbyterian problem. It is a problem of the human heart, even as you go back in history and you look at Jonathan Edwards' grandfather,
14:34: Solomon Stoddard, and the whole halfway covenant that took place in Puritan New England. This is something the
14:40: Church has really, really struggled with, whether they're paedo -Baptists or they're credo -Baptists, whether, you know, if they're
14:48: Christian parents, this concern for their children and concern for their salvation, which is a right concern.
14:54: We ought to be very concerned. But we ought to preach the gospel to them, even as we catechize them, and we ought to, as we instill a worldview in them that is absorbed with God and His glory and His sovereignty, we ought to also urge them to repent and place faith in Christ.
15:12: Because even the, you know, obviously Presbyterians believe in a conversion.
15:17: They don't presume salvation, or at least the best ones of them don't. So I think that this is a problem regardless of what denomination we're in.
15:29: We have to do a better job of raising our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, not assuming their salvation, and not being pressured by the fact that, you know, our friend's children, you know, are admitted to the
15:42: Church and ours aren't yet. You know, sometimes pride can get in the way of that, and we are all sinners that, where pride can really inhibit the spiritual development of our children.
15:54: And we need to be, I think, very, very careful with that, and just be faithful preaching the gospel at Church and at home, both.
16:02: Amen. And when in your life did you receive the call from God to enter into the pastoral ministry?
16:10: How did that call manifest itself in your life? Well, like I said, from a very early age, about the age of eight,
16:18: I felt an internal calling to preach the Word of God. What does that mean to an eight -year -old?
16:24: You know, I don't really know. I just knew that the pastors that were in my life, my uncle being one of them, very involved in my life, and I just knew that it seemed compelling to me what they did week in and week out in preaching the
16:40: Word of God. I never had a real clear sense of whether I would be a pastor or a missionary.
16:48: I just knew this matter of preaching, where you're standing before God's people, there was something internally compelling about that to me from a very young age.
16:58: And then, of course, we also believe in what's called an external call, which is the elders of your church, the leaders of your church, recognizing gifts, abilities, desires within you.
17:11: And so that began to happen when I was a teenager. The elders of the church began encouraging me to speak publicly, first to the youth group, then before the larger church.
17:24: And so I started preaching before I was ever ordained as a teenager. And as you do that, people begin to confirm externally that, yes, this is more of a matter of the
17:39: Lord's calling on this man's life, and it's less of a matter of something that he just wants to do.
17:45: And it works out differently with everyone, but for me, there was a strong internal call than the strong external call.
17:52: And by that point, it's kind of the point of no return. I mean, what are you going to do? Everyone around you that loves you senses that this is
18:00: God's calling upon your life. And so I recently heard Burke Parsons explain with Ligonier.
18:08: Yeah, I posted that discussion he had on my Facebook page.
18:14: Yeah, I mean, I thought what he said was just spot on, where Burke said that it's not that as pastors we couldn't do something else, but it's that we must do what
18:25: God has called us to. And, man, that resonates with me, because I guess there's some other things that I could do, but there's nothing
18:32: I want to do more, and even if there was, my conscience would not allow me to pursue it.
18:39: So you eventually, obviously, received a call to the pastor at Christ Reformed Community Church of St.
18:46: Augustine, Florida. And I'm assuming from my memory that that's the way the
18:53: Floridians pronounce it, St. Augustine, not Augustine, right? Yeah, theologians pronounce it
18:58: Augustine. Well, some don't. But tell us about Christ Reformed Community Church in St.
19:06: Augustine, Florida. Yeah, well, it was burst out of a desire to have a solid
19:14: Reformed church in this area. We are just south of Jacksonville, so we're at the tip of St.
19:22: John's County, which is where St. Augustine is located. Right near our mutual friend,
19:28: Pastor Keith Foskey, who pastors Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville. Yes, yes.
19:35: Keith and I are good friends and go back many years. But yeah, the church,
19:40: I'm the founding pastor. It was started by me and another gentleman who's also an elder at the church, and at the time, we have mutual friends who are pastors that connected us, and I was obviously preaching in a different context at a different church and felt the
19:56: Lord was using me there. But after talking and praying through, starting a Reformed work and seeking counsel, the
20:04: Lord made it very, very clear that this would be something worth pursuing. So we established the church in September of 2015, and the church actually started with family worship.
20:18: So I would have people come over, basically, for family worship, and then out of that was birthed a congregation that I'm very grateful and privileged to have the honor of pastoring.
20:30: Is this a confessional Reformed church? Yes. And... It's confessional.
20:38: Yeah, we would be a conglomeration of Westminster people and Second London Baptist people.
20:47: So we use both confessions, we utilize both confessions in the public worship of our church, as well as in terms of teaching
20:56: Sunday school and catechizing the kids. We practice Believer's Baptism, so if someone wants to join the church, they're converted, we immerse them.
21:08: But we, interestingly, have quite a few Paedo -Baptists that are part of our church and enjoy worshiping the
21:16: Lord and enjoy the theology, so there is... Our church is unique in that sense, because Paedo -Baptists and Believers -Baptist people get along and love each other, and there's a sweet Christian unity to those who are involved in our fellowship, which
21:33: I'm very grateful for. Well, we hopefully will repeat this information later, but if anybody wants to find out more about Christ Reformed Community Church in St.
21:44: Augustine, Florida, the website is christreformedcc .com, christreformedcc .com.
21:53: Well, as we said at the outset of the program, our discussion today will be on Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile and why this date in history is significant.
22:02: In fact, the actual date is... let's see... it is this
22:09: Friday, correct? September 13, 1941. Yes, and I think it'd be wise, even though this is a
22:18: Reformed show, although I don't exclusively interview Reformed guests, but predominantly
22:25: I do, and I'm assuming that the majority of my listeners are
22:30: Reformed and know who John Calvin was, I am knowledgeable of the fact that we do have non -Reformed listeners, we even have some unbelieving listeners, we even have listeners from outside of the
22:44: Protestant Reformation, we have Roman Catholics who listen, and we even have Muslims and members of cults and so on listening on occasion.
22:55: They make themselves known to me through email and so on. But especially for the sake of our listeners who either don't know who
23:04: John Calvin was or have a completely fictitious understanding of who he was, can you give us a very brief summary, because our listeners can go to the archives of IronTrooperZionRadio .com
23:18: and if you type in the search engine John Calvin, or even just Calvin, you will get a number of past programs on the subject of John Calvin, and if you go to CVBBS .com,
23:30: which is the website for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, you will get a whole list of books, a huge list of books on John Calvin, and of course our other sponsors,
23:42: Solid -Gram -Books .com, Solid -Gram -Books .com, they have a very large assortment of books on John Calvin, and some by John Calvin.
23:52: But if you could give us a brief summary of who he was, just so we can get some context.
23:59: Sure. Yeah, John Calvin was a Frenchman, and a lot of people think that maybe he was from Switzerland, but he wasn't.
24:08: He pastored in Geneva, Switzerland, but he was born as a Frenchman in Noyon, France on July 10th, 1509.
24:16: And like anyone else during that time period, he grew up in a very staunch Roman Catholic home.
24:22: Perhaps even more staunch than others, because his father was some sort of clerk or accountant, some sort of administrator with the large cathedral that was located there in Noyon.
24:36: So his father was friends with priests, and knew some people very high up in the church, and his father encouraged him from a very young age to enter the priesthood, which
24:49: Calvin was more than willing to honor his father in that.
24:55: But somewhere along the way, Calvin's dad fell out of favor with the church. And so when
25:01: Calvin was about 14 years old, he was sent to study in Paris, and sometime during that period, his father had a falling out with the church.
25:10: And so in 1528, when Calvin was about 19 years old, his father said,
25:16: I want you to be a lawyer, and I want you to go to law school. And so Calvin pursued his studies in law.
25:23: I think it's important for the listeners to know that Calvin was about 8 or 9 years old when
25:28: Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the church, Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany.
25:34: So that gives some context. The Reformation was already occurring, and Calvin would have been, at some point, aware of Luther, and particularly when he began his studies.
25:46: He went off to Paris, and he became friends with people that were sympathetic to Reformation teaching.
25:54: That along with the fact that his father fell out of favor with the Roman Catholic Church perhaps led him to be more willing to listen to these
26:02: Reform -minded people. But he pursued a law degree. He got that in 1532.
26:08: He published his first book, actually, in 1532. It was a commentary on the philosopher
26:14: Seneca, on a work that Seneca had written. But 1533 is really the important year for John Calvin.
26:23: He was 24 years old, and he writes in the introduction to one of his commentaries on the
26:30: Psalms that he experienced in 1533 what he called a sudden conversion.
26:37: And most historians take this to mean this was a conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ, that he forsook the works -oriented salvation of the
26:47: Roman Catholic Church. And I think this probably was his conversion, because in that same year, 1533, he had left
26:56: Paris earlier, but he went back to Paris, because there were some Reform -minded people there, in particular a man by the name of Nicholas Kopp, who happened to be the rector of the
27:09: University of Paris. And this is where the story gets really interesting and picks up momentum.
27:15: Kopp was a Reformer, and he was not a closet Reformer. He loved
27:22: Luther. He loved the doctrine of justification. And so in his inaugural address for the beginning of the school year, he preached a message that upheld the doctrine of justification.
27:35: It upheld the teachings of Martin Luther. And there is great historical evidence that John Calvin was actually the writer of this inaugural address.
27:48: There was an extant manuscript that was found of this address in Calvin's own handwriting.
27:54: So the best that we can tell, Calvin was the one behind this, and he fled town before Nicholas Kopp ever even gave this address, and was on the run.
28:05: People knew Calvin was behind this. In the meantime, Kopp was brought before Parliament, was charged with heresy, and that left
28:13: John Calvin in this period of exile from about 1533 to 1536.
28:19: He moved around different parts of France, but he ended up at the estate of a man by the name of Louis de
28:25: Tillet, who was a wealthy man who had a large library. And as Calvin was beginning to grow in his salvation and his knowledge of Christ, he began to search out in this library the sources of the
28:40: Church Fathers, and he began reading the Church Fathers and comparing this with his education, comparing it with what he was taught in the
28:47: Roman Catholic Church, and he realized that the Church Fathers did not teach what the
28:53: Roman Catholic Church was teaching in his own day. And so this three year period was a period where he really grew theologically, and actually then published in March of 1536 at the young age of 26, his first edition of the
29:13: Institutes of the Christian Religion. Now would you say that one of the differences, or some of the differences that separated
29:25: Calvin and Luther, of course Calvin had the shoulders of Luther to stand on, since Luther, although they were contemporaries as far as the fact that they lived at the same time as you were saying earlier,
29:42: Luther is older, and God used him to launch the Reformation before Calvin, but would you say that where Calvin eventually landed in his theology, you and I as Reformed Baptists would believe, typically, anyway,
30:06: I don't know if you will agree with me or not, but I'm pretty certain you will, Reformed Baptists would typically think, in fact even
30:15: Presbyterians, would think that Calvin departed from Rome in much more of a radical and vivid way than Luther did, that Calvin, even though he perhaps had a more spiritual significance, or should
30:43: I say held the sacraments of the Church with more spiritual significance than many
30:49: Baptists and Evangelicals do today, he certainly did not attribute regeneration to the sacrament of Baptism as Luther did, and perhaps had a less spiritually significant view of the sacrament of the
31:11: Lord's Table than Luther did. I know that he was not strictly a memorialist, as many attribute to the teaching of Zwingli, although there is some dispute over how much of a memorialist
31:27: Zwingli was, but he certainly today,
31:34: I think, would have more of a Protestant understanding of those two sacraments than Luther would. Do you agree with me on that?
31:41: Oh, I definitely think that Calvin is the heritage of modern -day
31:47: Presbyterians, conservative Presbyterians, and for that matter Reformed Baptists, because, as you put it, he was not merely a
31:57: Reformer in terms of what he believed and in his theology, but he was out to reform the liturgy of the
32:05: Church. He was...you even think about William Ferrell, who was his predecessor in Geneva.
32:12: William Ferrell was endorsing iconoclastic practices. Ferrell removed the baptismal font in the three churches in Geneva, and although we don't know if Calvin had quite the same strength of conviction regarding iconoclastic sort of activities, we do know that he was good friends with William Ferrell.
32:37: Right. Ferrell is the one that basically guilt -tripped him into returning to Geneva, wasn't he?
32:43: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he was, because Calvin was...he was a recluse.
32:49: Calvin was very shy. He was an introvert by nature. Some of the caricatures of Calvin are just unhelpful.
32:57: He...if he was stern...stern is not really the best word. He was reverent. He understood the importance of what he was doing, and he was an introvert by nature.
33:12: He wanted to study and to write privately, and as a matter of fact, right after he wrote the
33:19: Institute, the first edition in March of 1536, I think it was the very next August of 1536 that he decided to go retire in Strausburg, which was in southwest
33:31: Germany, and in God's providence he was forced to take a detour. He had to take different roads and had to pass through Geneva.
33:39: He had no plans of passing through Geneva, but he was forced to, him and his friends, and he ended up staying the night there, and William Ferrell, who was already in Geneva at that time, got word that the writer of the
33:54: Institute, D. John Calvin, was in Geneva and actually pronounced a curse on Calvin.
34:00: First he tried to persuade Calvin, I need your help here, you know, you're this great organizer of theological truth, we need you in Geneva, and Calvin said, yeah,
34:10: I'm okay, no thank you, I'm heading to Strausburg and I'm going to be just tucked away somewhere in an ivory tower.
34:18: Ferrell said, look, God's going to curse you if you don't stay here. And I think this says something about Calvin, the fact that he was so sensitive in his conscience to the leading of God in his life, that he saw
34:31: God speaking through that event to him, and that's why he stayed in Geneva for his first stint as pastor for two years.
34:39: It was because he felt that God might curse his studies, and he didn't want to dishonor the
34:45: Lord. So yeah, we can give credit to William Ferrell, right, wrong, or indifferent, the threat was what made
34:52: Calvin come to Geneva in the first place and stay. All right, when we come back from the break,
34:58: I just have a quick question for you about Ferrell regarding something you said, so if I forget to ask you, please remind me.
35:04: But we're going to our first break right now, and if anybody wants to join us, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,
35:11: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
35:20: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Andrew Smith and our discussion on Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile.
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37:18: Hi, I'm Stephan Limblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.
37:27: I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our
37:35: Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.
37:51: Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.
38:03: If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.
38:16: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the
38:24: Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.
38:36: The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient Scripture, dissemination of Scripture, to provide tools equipping believers in Christian apologetics with evidence for the
38:47: Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.
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40:00: Talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.
40:08: He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
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40:23: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised
40:30: Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
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41:01: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
41:23: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
41:33: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshiped and how
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42:00: Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
42:07: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace
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42:22: .com, or call them at 908 -996 -4255. That's 908 -996 -7654.
42:32: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and my friend
43:00: Chris Arnzen and I are excited to be attending another G3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th, on a theme that is vitally important to all of us,
43:11: Worship Matters. I'll be on the speaking line -up with Eric Thomas, Joel Beeky, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Phil Johnson, Tom Askell, Voddie Balcom, and the world -renowned preacher, teacher, and author,
43:22: John MacArthur. A fascinating new addition to the roster is Kosti Hinn, nephew of the notorious false teacher,
43:29: Benny Hinn. Kosti has repented of the word -faith heresies of his youth and is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist in California.
43:38: Come join me and Chris Arnzen at G3 2020, January 16th through the 18th, in Atlanta.
43:44: By registering at G3conference .com, that's G3conference .com.
43:49: See you there. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,
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46:05: And we are now back with our guest, Andrew Smith, pastor of Christ Reformed Community Church in St. Augustine, Florida.
46:11: We are discussing Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile and why this date in history is significant.
46:18: Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
46:24: Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
46:32: And the question I had for you about Pharrell, Pastor Andrew, is you said that he was removing the baptismal fonts from the sanctuaries or the church buildings.
46:44: Was this because he became, at least at some point, a non -believer in the ordinance or sacrament of baptism?
46:52: Or what was the reason for that? Well, the motive behind him doing that was actually at the request of the town council of Geneva itself.
47:04: So one of the things that is very critical to understand about John Calvin and his ministry, he was not this dictator that everyone says that he was.
47:14: By the time that he arrived in Geneva, Geneva had separated themselves from the
47:20: House of Savoy. The House of Savoy was ran by the Duke of Savoy. And basically, the
47:27: House of Savoy controlled Geneva for years and years and years, and the Genevans did not like this.
47:32: They wanted their political independence. They didn't want to be ruled by this prince -bishop, which was essentially a puppet sent from the
47:40: House of Savoy, located directly from the south of Geneva, to tell them what to do.
47:46: And so a lot of political things were occurring. Even as Calvin was in school in the 1520s,
47:54: Geneva began to make an alliance with some other Swiss cantons that were to their north,
48:02: Bern and Friberg. And so now with Bern and Friberg in Geneva, they were sort of a triple -headed threat against the authority of the
48:10: House of Savoy. And Geneva successfully broke away its independence from the
48:15: House of Savoy. But the problem was the Genevans didn't want to be controlled by anybody. And so they pulled out of their alliance, which the
48:24: Bernese had helped them, because in 1530 the House of Savoy attacked
48:29: Geneva, and the Bernese came to their defense. But the Genevans were staunchly independent people.
48:36: And after separating from the House of Savoy and then breaking their alliance with Bern and Friberg, they formed this town council.
48:45: There were actually two councils. One was a large council made up of around 200 members, and the second was a small council, that's what they called it, made up of 25 members.
48:56: And the council of 25 was appointed by the large council. And so essentially you had a large committee running the town, and they saw the
49:07: Protestant Reformation as an opportunity and an excuse, for lack of a better term, to break away politically.
49:15: So a lot of this was political motivation, and so when they hired Ferrell, who was a Protestant reformer, to stir up the crowds, he was a very fiery preacher, they ordered him to begin encouraging the people to practice iconoclastic activities, and to remove images, and to remove the baptismal font.
49:38: Why would that have been synonymous with images? Why would they, I should say, the baptismal fonts, have been synonymous with images?
49:47: Yeah, well just during the day, you know, any sort of symbol of Roman Catholic teaching, they wanted out of the churches and removed.
49:58: They wanted to revamp this whole thing. Now was Ferrell a Credo Baptist or something?
50:05: I mean, I still don't get the significance of a... No. No, again, he would not have been anywhere near that.
50:12: Not everyone during that time period would have been strict Credo Baptist. Other than the Anabaptists, of course.
50:18: Yeah, exactly. No, the removal was more of a statement.
50:25: It was like a political statement that was saying, we are removing this symbol of Roman Catholicism.
50:32: They viewed the baptismal font as a symbol of Roman Catholicism, not so much a symbol of baptism.
50:39: And so it's hard for us to put ourselves in that context, admittedly.
50:45: But the issue was not against baptism. It was against the Roman Catholic notion that baptism could save one's sins.
50:53: That entrance into the Church was based upon baptism as a baby.
50:59: And Calvin and Ferrell were preachers of the Gospel, and they said, Protestantism upholds that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
51:08: Baptism is not an entrance into salvation. Now, they did believe that it was a symbol of salvation, and that it was a rite and a ritual that allowed one membership into the
51:21: Church. But they wanted to remove any symbols that could communicate a different Gospel from the
51:32: Protestant Gospel, which was following in the stead of Luther himself. Huh.
51:38: So basically, just because it was a physical object on what would have been considered by the
51:46: Church of Rome the altar, it was just considered another part of the idols that would be in existence there.
51:58: Yeah, because the Protestants were taking over churches that were
52:03: Catholic. And I think in some of the churches, and I'm not sure about the cathedrals, again,
52:10: St. Pierre, where Calvin eventually pastored, was one of three churches, but it was also a cathedral, so it was a regional location.
52:18: I think in some of the Catholic buildings, and I'm not an expert on Roman Catholic architecture, but I think a lot of the baptismal fonts were located right in the foyer, or the narthex, of the
52:31: Church, because they believed entrance into the Church was synonymous with entrance into salvation, which they believed was synonymous with baptism, because they believed in baptismal regeneration.
52:45: So again, if that is true, that highlights the significance of removing something that's in the very entrance of the
52:51: Church, that for generations, people grew up thinking that, I'm saved.
52:57: If I'm baptized into the Church, I have salvation, I follow the sacraments, and I'm good to go.
53:05: So they wanted to do away with that and emphasize faith in Christ and repentance from sin.
53:14: Okay, well tell us, before we have you introduce to us Calvin's return to Geneva, tell us about the actual exile itself and why it occurred.
53:26: So the actual exile was the result of tensions that were obviously at work, both politically and religiously.
53:36: You have a whole town that not only changed their religion, from Catholicism to Protestantism, but they changed their whole government so that now they were operating by a committee.
53:49: And it's really interesting that William Farrell had to convince the town council to even hire
53:55: John Calvin to begin with. The town council was very apprehensive, because they actually called him in the registry of the minutes when they hired him.
54:06: They simply called him that Frenchman. And they didn't like the fact that he was a foreigner.
54:12: And they didn't even hire him initially as a pastor. They hired him as a public reader of Scripture. Now just imagine that for a minute.
54:20: Although Calvin was young, he was the writer of the Institutes of the Christian Religion, and that just shows you there wasn't a great deal of spiritual maturity, or maybe even spiritual qualities at all with this town council.
54:35: And now they're in charge of not only the town, but they're in charge of the church as well. They are the bosses, as it were, of the pastors, these
54:44: Protestant pastors, once the Catholic priests were removed and all of that. But Farrell was able to convince them to hire
54:52: Calvin. Interestingly, Calvin didn't receive a paycheck, even though he was promised one, for several months working in Geneva.
55:03: He eventually became a pastor. But William Farrell and John Calvin, and Farrell was really the one leading the whole thing in Calvin's first stint.
55:14: Farrell was 20 years older than Calvin. And so he was the leader of this thing.
55:20: And they came together and they decided the way to reform the town, and this is where the tensions began to rise, was by producing confessions and catechisms.
55:30: So they wrote a catechism, which was largely based off of Calvin's original institute.
55:36: His original edition was written more like a catechism for young people. And so they essentially copied and pasted material from the institute for a catechism.
55:48: They came up with this confession of faith. The town council embraced it very early on.
55:53: They embraced the confession. They made an oath, the town council did in May of 1536, that they would live according to the gospel and the word of God.
56:03: They printed and distributed the confession in the catechism. They had these documents read out loud in public assembly on the
56:11: Lord's Day to prepare the people to embrace this Protestantism. But included in that confession was the all -important doctrine of church discipline, excommunication.
56:24: And the town council did not like the fact that Calvin and Ferrell had included that within their documents.
56:32: And so without telling them, they amended those sections from the documents that spoke about church discipline.
56:40: And obviously, as you can imagine, Calvin and Ferrell believed that church discipline or excommunication, you know, putting someone outside of the church who was not a true believer, who was living in open sin, was unacceptable.
56:57: And the Reformation simply could not continue if the church was not pure.
57:02: In fact, let me pick up right where you left off, because we have to go to our midway break right now. So remember, we will pick up on discipline in the church when we return.
57:13: This is our midway break, which is longer than normal, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
57:18: FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this show twice a day in a prerecorded format, both 8 to 10 a .m.
57:27: and 8 to 10 p .m., they require a longer break in the middle because they air their own public service announcements to localize
57:34: Iron Trump and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, which is a requirement of the FCC that the programming be localized.
57:40: So while they are airing their public service announcements, we air our globally heard commercials.
57:48: So please use this time wisely. First of all, we thank you for your patience as this break is longer than normal.
57:53: But please, for those of you listening to the prerecorded version, please don't fast -forward every day through the commercials, because we want you to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can, as frequently as possible, patronize our advertisers, because we require our advertisers to exist.
58:13: I know that a number of you complain about the number of ads that we air. It's the only way that we can survive and remain on the air, folks.
58:19: Sorry, but that's how we exist. So please write down the information provided by our advertisers and also write down the questions that you have for Pastor Andrew Smith on Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile or any question on John Calvin or the
58:36: Reformation. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
58:45: And please, as always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.
58:50: Only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more of Pastor Andrew Smith and Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile.
59:04: Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a
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01:12:29: Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.
01:12:43: I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
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01:13:16: That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.
01:13:29: Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.
01:13:42: That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com.
01:13:50: Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And don't forget, you can call
01:13:57: CVBBS .com at 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231,
01:14:04: Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 430 p .m. Eastern Time. And keep in mind, folks, that we have two sponsors that deal with books.
01:14:15: One is Solid Ground Christian Books that I've mentioned earlier, and that you've heard advertised earlier in the show,
01:14:23: Solid -Ground -Books .com. And you also have, obviously, the ad that you just heard is for CVBBS .com.
01:14:30: The difference between these two sponsors is that Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher, and CVBBS .com
01:14:37: is a book distributor. So, you can actually kill two birds with one stone and satisfy both of our sponsors by going first to Solid -Ground -Books .com.
01:14:49: Solid -Ground -Books .com. Make a long list of books that you want to order that they publish, and then go to CVBBS .com
01:14:58: and order those books. If they don't have them in stock already, they will order them for you, and that way they are both happy.
01:15:06: That's just a suggestion. And also, call 800 -656 -0231. That's CVBBS .com's
01:15:13: phone number that you can call Monday through Friday, 10 a .m. to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time. 800 -656 -0231.
01:15:19: And ask about the two books that you can get for free. True Love by Dr. James M.
01:15:25: Renahan of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. That's True Love, which you can get free with any purchase.
01:15:33: And also ask about the other book that requires a $50 minimum purchase, my favorite of all time biography,
01:15:41: A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cohn. That's a much larger hardback by Evangelical Press that requires a $50 minimum purchase.
01:15:49: But ask about those two books when you call CVBBS .com. And before I return to my guest,
01:15:56: Andrew Smith, we just have a couple of quick announcements to make regarding events. The first is, on Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th,
01:16:04: I am returning to New York City, my old stomping grounds, to attend the Foundations Conference.
01:16:09: This is a conference that is hosted and orchestrated by sermonaudio .com.
01:16:15: And if they are running an event, you know that the speakers are extremely sound and faithful to the
01:16:20: Scriptures. That's December 19th and 20th, Thursday and Friday. And there's no better time of the year to go to New York City than during the
01:16:28: Christmas season. So I would urge you to join me there if you are a man in ministry leadership. This is a conference exclusively for men in ministry leadership, especially because the venue is so small that can seat only less than 200 people there.
01:16:41: The speakers include, at this year's conference, Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer, Rev.
01:16:47: Jeff Thomas, Rev. Armin Tomasian, Richard Colwell, Jr., and Andrew Quigley. If you would like to join me there,
01:16:53: Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, in New York City, go to thefoundationsconference .com,
01:17:00: thefoundationsconference .com. Then in January, I'm packing up my bags again, and this time I'm heading down south again for my fourth
01:17:08: G3 Conference at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.
01:17:17: I am so excited about this conference because, as always, the speakers are phenomenal and the roster is extremely long and very impressive, as always.
01:17:29: The speakers include, once again, we have Paul Washer and Dr. Stephen J.
01:17:34: Lawson on the roster at this conference. We have my dear friend, Dr. James O. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.
01:17:41: We have my friend, Dr. Tom Askell, the Founder of Founders Ministries, or I should say the
01:17:47: Executive Director of Founders Ministries, which is the Calvinistic ministry within the Southern Baptist Convention.
01:17:53: My friend, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio. Derek Thomas, who is certainly a world -renowned name, especially amongst
01:18:02: Reformed Christians. Stephen J. Nichols, who is the President of Reformation Bible College in Sanford, Florida, the college founded by the late
01:18:09: R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. My friend, Kosti Hinn, who is going to be returning soon as a guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, the nephew of the notorious heretic,
01:18:20: Benny Hinn. And Kosti would not be upset by me saying that because he has publicly renounced and warns against his own uncle.
01:18:31: And he has repented of the heresies and the lies and the deceptions and the charlatan act put on by his uncle and his minions that have been leading many people, unfortunately and tragically, into the gates of hell.
01:18:49: So, Kosti warns about his own uncle as often as he gets the opportunity.
01:18:55: I would strongly urge you to see him and hear him wherever he may be speaking. And the list goes on of very impressive speakers.
01:19:03: And, of course, as you heard from my aunt with Dr. James R. White in the beginning of the program, the new addition or the latest addition to the roster is
01:19:12: John MacArthur himself. Now, I would go, even if it was just John MacArthur preaching. And, by the way, if you have any intention of registering for an exhibitor's booth, if you have a parachurch ministry or a business that you want to promote, just like I'm manned there for Iron Trip and Zion Radio every year,
01:19:32: I would strongly urge you to do so quickly because with John MacArthur added to the lineup, I think that they are going to have a thousand people more than they normally have.
01:19:40: They normally have over 5 ,000 people at this conference. I think they're going to have over 6 ,000 people.
01:19:46: And they do run out of room for registration for exhibitor's booths. So, I would strongly urge you to register for one if, indeed, that applies to you before they do run out of room.
01:19:57: If you want to join me there, Thursday, January 16th, through Saturday, January 18th at the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com,
01:20:04: g3conference .com to register. The theme this January is Worship Matters. Worship Matters.
01:20:10: That's g3conference .com. And, last but not least, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please,
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01:22:29: And by the way, if you are not a member of a Bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, I have lists of faithful churches all over the world
01:22:39: I have helped a number of people in our audience find churches where they have joined in all parts of the world as well as parts of the world where they are visiting for vacation and also for family, friends, and loved ones who live in different parts of the world.
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01:23:01: There's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today that is
01:23:07: Pastor Andrew Smith of Christ Reformed Community Church in St. Augustine, Florida. We are discussing Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile and this is actually a date in history this
01:23:18: Friday, Friday the 13th, Friday, September 13th. So, if you want to join us, send us a question to chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:23:25: chrisarnson at gmail .com and just please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the
01:23:33: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Pastor Andrew, we were discussing church discipline before we went to the break.
01:23:43: So, if you want to pick up where you left off in regard to Calvin and Farrell in relationship to church discipline.
01:23:51: Yeah, absolutely, I'd love to. And, you know, just hearing you speak about the heretic
01:23:58: Benny Hinn, and I know you had Costi Hinn on the show, I listened to that episode. One of the interesting things about Benny Hinn is he obviously says that it's his calling to show forth the power and the works of the
01:24:12: Holy Spirit. Well, we're talking about John Calvin, and it was the great theologian B .B.
01:24:17: Warfield who referred to Calvin as the theologian of the Holy Spirit. And what
01:24:23: Warfield meant by that was not so much the extraordinary work of the
01:24:29: Holy Spirit, the signs and the wonders and those sorts of things, but Calvin emphasized the ordinary work of the
01:24:36: Spirit, the ordinary work of the Spirit in the preaching of the Word of God, to save a soul, to regenerate a soul, to give new life as a person hears the gospel, the power of the
01:24:47: Holy Spirit in applying the Word of God to a Christian so that they bear fruits of repentance and live a life that honors and glorifies
01:24:56: God. And I think Warfield is certainly right in his analysis of that, because getting back to church discipline,
01:25:04: Calvin's whole issue was not to preach morality for the sake of morality.
01:25:10: Calvin was a preacher of the gospel, and he simply believed that without the preaching of the gospel, lives wouldn't be changed.
01:25:19: But if lives were changed by the gospel, then people should be held accountable, and you don't want people in the church who are not giving evidence that they've been born from above or born again.
01:25:30: And as I stated earlier, the town council, many of them were just not true believers.
01:25:36: They promoted and allowed, actually legalized, prostitution in the city of Geneva, which was led by a woman who was nicknamed
01:25:44: Queen of the Brothel. Many of the leaders of the Libertine Party, which opposed
01:25:49: Calvin, practiced openly adultery. And so Calvin was concerned that if a reformation was going to take place,
01:25:58: God's church had to be pure. But where the tensions really met kind of the heat of the day was when the government of Bern held a synod in Lausanne, and in this synod,
01:26:13: Bern was at that time considered the model Protestant city. So we would maybe consider
01:26:19: Geneva that as we look back on history. But during that time period, Bern was sort of the leader of the
01:26:24: Protestants in that region, and they had great persuasive powers, and they made a suggestion regarding the use of unleavened bread in the
01:26:34: Lord's Supper. The town council, and this is just one example, went behind Calvin and Ferrell's back and said, we're going to now serve unleavened bread at the
01:26:45: Lord's Supper. Well, it wasn't so much that Calvin and Ferrell were opposed to the use of unleavened bread, as much as it was, by principle, the town council trying to go above them in terms of a sacrament of the church, you know, without even telling them.
01:27:00: So they made the joint decision that on Easter Sunday, April 21st, 1538, Calvin and Ferrell said that once they preached their sermons,
01:27:09: Ferrell was preaching at one church on one end of the town, and Calvin was preaching at the Cathedral of St.
01:27:15: Pierre's. Once they got done preaching, they weren't going to serve the Lord's Supper. They were going to refuse to serve it because there were unrepentant people on the council, there were unrepentant adulterers, and leadership.
01:27:26: And this is a time when the leadership of the church was, you know, there were men on the town council who also served as elders.
01:27:35: And people were so upset that swords were drawn, Calvin had to be escorted to his house, they were threatening his life.
01:27:43: He boldly came back that Sunday evening and preached again. But the town council met three times, once on Sunday, and then again on Monday, and then again on Tuesday of that week, following that Easter Sunday, and they voted to basically kick
01:27:59: Calvin and Ferrell out of Geneva. They were gone. And when you study it, you realize that this was an issue of a power struggle.
01:28:09: This was the town council, they wanted their independence. They not only didn't want to be ruled by the
01:28:14: House of Savoy, they didn't want anyone telling them what to do. And so it's not so much a failure on Calvin's part, although he was young and green and really didn't know what he was doing.
01:28:27: He had no pastoral experience up to that point. A lot of it was just with the town council that was very evil.
01:28:34: And it's interesting that William Ferrell had two stints in Geneva prior to Calvin coming, and Ferrell was kicked out twice before Calvin even got there.
01:28:46: And in fact, there was a whole conspiracy to poison William Ferrell with poisonous mushrooms to kill him.
01:28:55: Wow. These were the people that Calvin dealt with, and we oftentimes think that Calvin was this dictator and he just went in and said, you're going to do it my way.
01:29:02: That wasn't it at all. He was more than willing to work with the town council, but it's hard to work with unregenerate people.
01:29:10: By the way, I want to quickly mention, since you mentioned B .B. Warfield in connection with the
01:29:16: Holy Spirit earlier, B .B. Warfield, the 19th century Princeton Divine, he didn't actually write the book, but the book has been published by Solid Ground Christian Books, entirely made up of B .B.
01:29:36: Warfield's writings on the Holy Spirit. It's a collected book of writings from various sources all by B .B.
01:29:43: Warfield. It's called The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit by B .B. Warfield with an introduction by Sinclair Ferguson, one of my greatest living preachers, or favorite living preachers,
01:29:55: I should say. If you would like to purchase this book, it's almost half off, 50 % off.
01:30:01: Go to Solid -Ground -Books .com Solid -Ground -Books .com and you can put in the search engine
01:30:07: The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit and this book by B .B. Warfield will come up.
01:30:13: You have to scroll down to see this book, but it's down there on the list, Benjamin B. Warfield.
01:30:19: And, of course, you could also type in Warfield and this book will come up as well.
01:30:25: The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit. We have a listener. Let's see here.
01:30:32: We have R .J. in White Plains, New York. And R .J.
01:30:38: says, Other than Calvin's views regarding infant baptism and his understanding of church polity or government, how much do modern -day
01:30:50: Reformed Baptists have in common with John Calvin? That's a great question.
01:30:58: And my short answer to that would be we have far more in common with him than not.
01:31:06: For instance, one of the great things about the
01:31:12: Reformed heritage is that it's not simply about head knowledge. If you study the great
01:31:18: Reformers of the past, they were men who loved God. Calvin was an example of that.
01:31:24: His motto was the picture of a hand holding a bleeding heart being offered up to God with the caption,
01:31:32: My heart I offer to you, O God, promptly and sincerely. Calvin said on one occasion,
01:31:39: What help is it to know a God with whom we have nothing to do? In other words, this goes back to the fact that if we know
01:31:46: God by His grace and we've had Christ revealed to us by the
01:31:52: Holy Spirit, then we will want the relationship with this God. We will want to nurture this relationship.
01:31:58: We will seek to honor and glorify God with our every being. So there's so much easy -believism today, so much antinomianism.
01:32:09: Calvin just would not tolerate that because someone who claims to know God is someone who loves
01:32:15: God, someone who is devoted to God. In the opening section of the Institute, Calvin says the true wisdom revolves around two concepts.
01:32:25: Number one, knowing God, and number two, knowing ourselves. And so his understanding of knowing
01:32:33: God is more than just theological knowledge. This is heart knowledge. This is a devotion to God, which is why he speaks about piety, which is just another word for spirituality.
01:32:44: He defines it as that reverence that's joined with the love of God. So Calvin spoke a lot about the love of God.
01:32:51: He spoke a lot about one's commitment to God. And if you did a study of his sermons and you just collected the data of paragraphs and sentences where Calvin is applying the
01:33:06: Word of God, exhorting the congregation, versus the paragraphs and sentences in his sermons where he's developing theological concepts,
01:33:15: I would challenge someone to do that, and I think you'll find that overwhelmingly Calvin is about application.
01:33:22: Now, he grounds his application in theology, but his goal is to get to the application because he wanted to see hearts and lives changed, because his heart was changed by the gospel.
01:33:35: So there's tons that we can learn from him and emulate from his life and his teaching.
01:33:41: We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says,
01:33:48: You were talking earlier about some of the distinctions between John Calvin and Martin Luther, his predecessor.
01:33:55: Would one of them be that John Calvin was also much more clear and detailed in a systematic theology than Luther, who attributed much more to mystery than Calvin?
01:34:11: Yes, I would say definitely so, and I would allow Philip Melanxton, who was the successor of Martin Luther, to answer this question.
01:34:22: Philip Melanxton said of John Calvin that he was the theologian.
01:34:29: In other words, this is the successor of Martin Luther, and yet, from Melanxton's viewpoint, he saw
01:34:37: Calvin as the theologian. He was the theologian of the Church that clearly and systematically organized the doctrine of the
01:34:47: Reformation, which is seen in the Institutes of the Christian Religion, which went through five editions.
01:34:53: This was Calvin's magnum opus, and in many ways is still considered the foundational systematic theology, if you will, of the
01:35:03: Reformation, though originally it was written as a catechism. So again, it goes back to Calvin.
01:35:09: He refused to separate theology from heart devotion. For him, a catechism could turn into a systematic theology and vice versa, but there's no question that he was more clear on theological issues
01:35:25: Chris, you were right. You mentioned the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper earlier, where Calvin didn't know what the
01:35:31: Scriptures said about something. He used to always say he didn't want to go beyond the mysteries of God, and the
01:35:38: Lord's Supper was one of those. He admitted there was a mystery to the partaking of it that he didn't fully understand.
01:35:44: There was a special union and communion that took place between the believer and Christ in that, but he didn't try to spell it out like Luther did with consubstantiation and the
01:35:55: Roman Catholic Church did with transubstantiation. Calvin was happy to let the tensions lie where they were on certain doctrines, but where Scripture was very clear, yes,
01:36:05: Calvin brought out that clarity in a way greater, in my opinion, than any theologian of the
01:36:11: Reformation. So, in that circumstance, when it came to the Lord's Supper, it was
01:36:18: Calvin that relegated more of the issues behind or underlying that ordinance of sacrament, and relegated more of that to mystery than Luther.
01:36:33: But Luther, according to our listener, and according even to my own understanding,
01:36:40: Luther more commonly would say it's a mystery, which is why, for instance, and correct me if I'm wrong,
01:36:50: Luther more often contradicted himself and was not as logically consistent as Calvin, because, for instance, you have
01:37:00: Martin Luther who believed in sola fide, justification by faith alone, and yet also believed in baptismal regeneration.
01:37:07: They seemed to totally contradict themselves, whereas Calvin was more logically consistent about those things, did not believe in baptismal regeneration, and had more of a consistent and logical stream of thought and teaching when it came to salvation being purely and 100 % a gift of the sovereign grace of God, and more completely removed man's activities from salvation than did
01:37:45: Luther. Am I making sense here? Yeah, you make complete sense, and all one has to do is read the
01:37:51: Institutes and see the emphasis that Calvin places on the doctrines of election and predestination.
01:37:59: He places far greater emphasis on those doctrines than Luther does. It's not that Luther didn't believe those things.
01:38:06: He certainly believed them, but for Calvin, Calvin robustly affirmed
01:38:13: God's sovereignty, and as you so well stated, in particular with reference to the gospel.
01:38:18: He wasn't quite a second -generation Reformer because his life overlapped with Luther's, but I think it just goes to show how quickly the
01:38:29: Reformation gained speed. I mean, there's overwhelming evidence that Luther wasn't even converted when he nailed the 95
01:38:37: Theses up. Oh yeah, he actually still believed in indulgences, he just did not believe in the abuse of the sale of indulgences.
01:38:49: Yeah, that's right, and so by the time that, you know, that's 1517, by the time that Calvin is in Geneva in the 1530s and writes the
01:38:56: Institutes, the Reformation had gained so much momentum at that point that the
01:39:02: Lord and his grace just began to raise up men that began to clarify these doctrines in a greater way than even someone like Luther.
01:39:13: As much as we love Luther and respect Luther, I do think there was far more clarity, and I heard
01:39:21: Robert Godfrey say one time that Calvin was not tied to a system. Calvin was very happy to just be biblical, and that's another great historical observation by Dr.
01:39:33: Godfrey to say that there's far more we have in common with Calvin. And I would say we have far more in common with Calvin than we do
01:39:41: Luther, as Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists, because he was so relentlessly biblical.
01:39:49: He was not tied to any one system, whereas Luther, you know what, it was more of a process for him to divorce himself from some of those
01:39:58: Roman Catholic trappings than it was for someone like Calvin. Right. We have
01:40:04: Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, How do you respond to those who say we should not hold
01:40:14: Calvin in high esteem in any manner, shape, or form because he consented to the murder of Michael Servetus, and even though we, who are
01:40:25: Trinitarian Christians, believe that Servetus was a heretic, most
01:40:30: Christians today, including the most Orthodox of Reformed and Confessional Christians, do not believe in the murder of heretics.
01:40:39: So how do you respond to those who say that we should just ignore Calvin because of this acquiescence to murder?
01:40:50: Well, I knew that question would probably come up at some point, and I think it's a great question.
01:40:55: I certainly don't want to dismiss it offhand. I would say a couple of things.
01:41:01: First would be a biblical observation, and then secondly, an historical observation. Biblically, you know, the author of Hebrews in the great
01:41:10: Hall of Faith chapter in Hebrews 11 tells us that we have those who have gone before us, and we are to look to these who have gone before us who had faith.
01:41:20: We are to see that we're surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses, as he goes on to say in Hebrews 12, verse 1.
01:41:28: And we are to have examples of Christians, you know, who love the
01:41:34: Lord. Moses wasn't perfect, Joshua wasn't perfect, Paul wasn't perfect, but we still use them as examples.
01:41:40: So I think the Bible would support Calvin as a model and example. Now with that being said, the historical observation in this is also to offer some clarity and context to the situation with Michael Servetus.
01:41:55: In the first instance, Michael Servetus was a heretic who was running away for his life from the
01:42:03: Roman Catholic Church because he didn't hold to an Orthodox view of the Trinity. And there was some correspondence between Calvin and Servetus that someone tried to set up a meeting at some point.
01:42:17: That never worked out. Calvin understood, though, through his letters and correspondence that he was unmovable and unyielding.
01:42:24: And Calvin said, look, if you come to Geneva and you expect to find safe haven, you won't find it here. Calvin warned him.
01:42:30: He said, do not come here. It will not be good for you. Servetus went anyway, and Calvin had him arrested.
01:42:38: But Calvin did not serve as the judge. Calvin did not serve as the executioner.
01:42:44: Calvin did not physically murder Servetus. Calvin was an expert witness. He brought the case of prosecution.
01:42:51: He mounted the evidence that, in fact, Servetus was a heretic. And it is true that Calvin followed the normal protocol for that day without justifying what he did, which was heretics were executed.
01:43:05: Calvin did plead for a more merciful execution than the Geneva government actually executed him, tragically, by burning him at the stake.
01:43:17: That's right. That's exactly right, Chris. It wasn't just Geneva, but everyone essentially said heretics needed to burn at the stake.
01:43:26: That was very common. Calvin, after he mounted all the evidence, pleaded with the town council, please hang him.
01:43:32: That's a much more merciful death. But the town council refused to, which again shows that Calvin didn't have full authority in this thing at all.
01:43:41: He was trying to be faithful. Now, I say that without endorsing or justifying at all
01:43:47: Calvin's involvement in Servetus' death, but I think if we're going to be objective and we're going to be honest and we're going to be forthright with history, we need to understand the context in which
01:43:58: Calvin operated. And he was not operating any differently than anyone else during that day.
01:44:04: And, in fact, as you pointed out, Chris, he wanted mercy on Servetus in the way that he actually died.
01:44:11: So, I think that Calvin is a wonderful example of a pastor, of a preacher, of a
01:44:17: Christian. I think we can learn a lot from his life. And unlike the slanderous claims of many of our
01:44:26: Fundamentalist Baptist friends who are anti -Calvinist, John Calvin had nothing to do...
01:44:32: In fact, even in Geneva, historically, there were not Anabaptists executed there.
01:44:41: And, certainly, John Calvin had nothing to do with the execution of Anabaptists, even though he wrote in extremely negative ways against Anabaptists.
01:44:50: There were never any Anabaptists executed with any consent of John Calvin.
01:44:57: Yeah, that's a good point, Chris, to remove all these stereotypes.
01:45:03: I have a pastor friend who is an anti -Calvinist, and he said, I will never follow the teachings of a man who was a murderer of Baptists.
01:45:12: And I said, he didn't murder any Baptists. In fact, even though he wrote against Anabaptists, which are a different group than Baptists, they were not really a severe problem in the vicinity where Calvin taught.
01:45:34: Well, we have to go to our final break right now. And if you'd like to join us, this is our last segment of the show with Andrew Smith, so please send us your question immediately to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
01:45:47: chrisarnsen at gmail .com. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the
01:45:57: Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.
01:46:17: I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my
01:46:25: New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the
01:46:36: Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
01:46:41: I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,
01:46:47: Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
01:46:55: That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.
01:47:02: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:47:20: When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
01:47:25: New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
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01:49:05: Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.
01:49:12: Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.
01:49:19: It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.
01:49:27: We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.
01:49:34: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:49:40: Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit
01:49:48: LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.
01:49:56: Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider
01:50:02: Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
01:50:11: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the
01:50:18: Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.
01:50:23: This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.
01:50:29: And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
01:50:37: I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
01:50:42: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
01:50:51: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
01:50:58: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
01:51:19: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
01:51:29: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.
01:51:37: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
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01:52:03: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace
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01:52:18: Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654
01:52:28: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:52:40: Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.
01:52:49: I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our
01:52:57: Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.
01:53:13: Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.
01:53:26: If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org
01:53:47: Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually. Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent biblically faithful teachers on their lineup sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.
01:54:02: If you are a lover of the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to FirstLoveRadio .org.
01:54:10: They feature Christ -centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness, such as Dr.
01:54:19: W .R. Downing, Dr. Peter Masters, Pastor Joe Jackowitz, Pastor Robert Gifford, Al Martin, Edward Delpor, and more.
01:54:29: FirstLoveRadio .org also live streams my Iron Trepans Iron Radio program daily.
01:54:35: Please stick around on FirstLoveRadio .org after Iron Trepans Iron Radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the
01:54:44: Gospel of Sovereign Grace. Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org. And Joe Jackowitz, pastor of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California, and also founder and president of FirstLoveRadio, extends to you in the listening audience his deepest gratitude for your prayers on his behalf as he continues his very frightening bout with leukemia.
01:55:20: As I've said in earlier programs and also during my interview with Joe not long ago, he is experiencing a very aggressive and deadly form of leukemia.
01:55:30: He has a 40 -60 % chance of survival according to his doctors. So please pray for him, not only that the
01:55:37: Great Physician would heal him completely, but also that no matter what the will of the Lord is in regard to his healing, that Joe has just perfect trust and confidence that the
01:55:50: Judge of all the earth will do what is right, and that he maintains this joyful attitude that he currently has in the midst of this very frightening trial.
01:56:01: Also, obviously, pray for Joe's family, that they would continue to be optimistic and confident in God, and that they would continue to encourage and comfort their dear loved one,
01:56:13: Joe Jackowitz. We will continue to provide you with updates as we receive them on his health. Now, this is the final segment of our interview today with Andrew Smith on John Calvin.
01:56:23: Do you have anything else to say before we go off the air regarding Calvin's return from exile? Well, just that we haven't discussed his return from exile yet.
01:56:34: Exactly. But yeah, his first stint was only two years.
01:56:40: He was exiled, and he went to Stroudsburg, where he basically did a mentorship underneath Martin Booster, which was a prominent theologian.
01:56:50: And it was here that he really matured, and some of the rough edges were chiseled off.
01:56:56: He married a widow of an Anabaptist. She brought two children into his life.
01:57:02: They had a child of their own that died at birth, so he experienced a growing family, the tragedy of losing a baby.
01:57:09: And then a cardinal by the name of Giacoppo Sadaletto sent a letter to Geneva about a year after Calvin was kicked out, trying to persuade the
01:57:20: Genevans to return back to Roman Catholicism. And the town council just didn't know what to do, so they called upon John Calvin to help them.
01:57:29: And one of the greatest pieces of literature of the Protestant Reformation, I want to encourage all the listeners to try to get a copy of this, is
01:57:36: John Calvin's reply to Giacoppo Sadaletto, this cardinal in Rome.
01:57:42: And Calvin just tears him to shreds in a good way and actually prevents the
01:57:49: Genevans from adopting and going back to Roman Catholicism. And they are able to persuade the
01:57:55: Genevans, Calvin, in returning. And Calvin, and this just shows his grace, and we can end with this, when
01:58:03: Calvin returned to Geneva, he said that he felt it was his duty. That was the only reason he was going back, because he would rather die a hundred deaths than go back to Geneva, where people named their dogs after him and hated him.
01:58:16: But he said that he wanted to return because it was his duty. And he, when he ascended the pulpit his first Sunday back, he picked up in his preaching from the very next verse where he had left off of in his exposition of the scriptures.
01:58:33: I think that the testimony to his trust in the power of God's word to change these people in Geneva, I think it's also a nod to his graciousness and not getting up and lecturing the people of Geneva and, how could you kick me out and do this to me?
01:58:48: He had measured and tempered demeanor in the pulpit, and he trusted in the expositional preaching of God's word to produce change, which it did.
01:58:58: For the next 23 years, Geneva completely changed. Interestingly, he didn't become a citizen until 1559, but he died in 1564.
01:59:09: So they didn't even accept him as one of their own until just shortly before his death. So there's so much more that could be said about him, but his return was in God's providence.
01:59:19: God used him mightily, and we have a lot to be grateful for to the Lord in bringing
01:59:24: Calvin back to Geneva, because the Reformation simply would not be what it was if the Lord hadn't have done that in his providence.
01:59:32: Well, we want you to return every month for a significant date in history, and we look forward to that.
01:59:38: I just want to remind our listeners that the website for Christ Reformed Community Church in St. Augustine, Florida is
01:59:44: ChristReformedCC .com, ChristReformedCC .com. Thank you so much, Pastor Andrew.
01:59:49: Thank you, everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write, and we want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater