September 9, 2019 Show with Andrew Smith on “Calvin’s Return to Geneva from His Exile (Why This Date in History is Significant)”

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It's iron sharpens iron.

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

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We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Wishing you all a happy Monday on this 19th.

I'm sorry this ninth day of September 2019 and it's my

honor and privilege today to have back as a returning guest Pastor Andrew Smith,.

I believe the only other time he was on the program is when he came to visit the iron sharpens iron

exhibitors booth at one of the g3 conferences at the Georgia International Convention Center in

College Park, Georgia, which I will be announcing again momentarily.

But this would be his first time actually on the live show to my memory.

He is pastor of Christ Reformed Community Church in st. Augustine, Florida.

And today we are going to be addressing Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile.

And why this date in history is significant.

In fact, it is our hope that Andrew and I will address a

relative or a significant date in history every month

from the calendar something that he has grown fond of doing commemorating the special

dates in history and We hope to do that on this program.

Starting today and continuing it.

As long as God would be pleased for us to do so.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio pastor Andrew Smith.

Thank you so much.

Thank you and.

Tomorrow was I correct in my memory that this is your first live show with us.

Yes, that is correct.

Well.

What I'd like you to do is since it's your first Live interview with us.

I'd like you to give a summary of your salvation testimony.

Which is a tradition we have here on iron sharpens iron radio typically with first -time guests.

But since you're a first -time live guest that will include you in this tradition.

So if you

could in

my family

Virginia or

maybe

five years old and watching a preacher on TV and

It wasn't a I heard the gospel I wasn't even in school yet

and explained to me in more detail

God's plan to save sinners and so my mother got on the floor set

Indian style with me and began to share the gospel and go through the scriptures with me.

And that was really the first time very is a very young child that the gospel resonated with me.

I knew I was a sinner.

I knew that I was Disobedient to my parents.

I knew that I had a tendency to fight with my siblings but even this elementary understanding, I

guess you could say of sin was was very real to me

and shortly thereafter and Continued

in the church.

My parents were heavily involved.

My mother Typically played the piano and was part of the choir.

My father was a deacon.

They taught Sunday school.

He drove the church bus.

My family actually even would clean the church on the weekend as a ministry and so I

grew up in that environment within the church and and Began to grow in my

theology.

My father is a is a reader of history.

He's a reader of theology and had a very great influence on me as a young teenager with

particular reference to the doctrines of grace.

Because not all of the churches I was in and we moved around a little bit because

my father was an air traffic control.

It's the gospel faithfully not all of them held to the doctrines of grace.

And there was even one church in particular that the elder board was divided there were some

Calvinist and there were some more Armenian leading people in a

search and a quest to understand what the Bible taught and I remember debating with my dad as

a very young teenager.

Of course he had already Adopted the doctrines of grace and I was showing some resistance

based by the time I was in college my junior year I had fully embraced

the doctrines of grace.

And was already planning on going into the ministry.

I think an internal calling to preach the Word of God from about the age of eight

years old and That calling stayed with me.

Decided to enter seminary and be serious about this matter of going into the ministry and

So I can't say enough about how God's grace and mercy was upon me from a very young child.

I don't remember a time that I didn't believe in the Lord.

I don't remember a time that I did not believe the scriptures were exactly what they say They are which is the authoritative Word of

God, and I hardly remember a time I didn't know Christ

Moment when I was four or five was when the conviction of sin and regret

started bearing some fruit.

Well parents listening with little tiny children running around the house.

That is possible for God to get a hold of a child that young four or five years

old and bring that child to eternal life and produce

Genuine and.

Believable.

Signs of repentance and faith in a child that that young.

Even my dear friend. Dr. James R. White of Elfin and Megan ministries.

I think he Was not much older than you were when when you were saved.

He was certainly a preteen.

I think he may have been somewhere about eight years old maybe younger, but It's really

remarkable that your mind by God's grace was able to comprehend these things.

I just remember At that age playing in the dirt with toy trucks and not even

Having a concern in the world about whether or not the death of Christ applied to my sins or not.

Yeah, and Chris, I don't want to read it.

Embarrassing to even share because I think a lot of people might be apprehensive.

You know, how could a four -year -old understand these things?

But I really believe it's a testimony to the power of God's sovereignty and salvation.

And I just know for me.

It's not that I wasn't there was anything exceptional about me.

I enjoyed playing in the dirt and doing those things as well.

But it's just my testimony that I remember that the extreme weight of my sin.

And I remember being fearful of God's judgment.

And to me that was huge.

I mean and obviously saw that they were Christians and following the Lord

and their Consistency and teaching the Word of God in the home and taking me to church.

I just to me it was a very real thing from the very very very beginning and that's.

All the glory goes to the Lord and if there's any glory left over my parents get some credit.

But I certainly get the depraved sinner in need of

mercy like anyone else.

I.

Don't want to take too much time off of our subject, but there is as you may be fully aware

Even amongst Reformed Baptists a dispute over

Early baptisms.

Most Reformed Baptists are Opposed

and are in opposition to very vociferously the

nominal Christianity that exists in our country perhaps even

predominantly in the Bible Belt and even many of my

Calvinist pastor friends in the Southern Baptist Convention will fully admit and

Lament over the fact that Their typical

experience not in their own churches since they are confessionally Reformed and so on.

But what they have witnessed in the Southern Baptist Convention and other churches and denominations in the Bible Belt

Especially is that when a child reaches a certain age perhaps

even older than you were Twelve or so they they will be automatically assumed

to be Candidates for baptism just because of their age and because they were raised in a Christian home, so they must be Christian.

They really are in essence Pato Baptists.

Except They would wait a few years after the baby is born and baptize that baby

regardless of if there's any realistic believable signs of

genuine repentance and faith in that child and so I'm Asking you do you think that in spite

of your experience?

Do you think that?

Christian parents and churches need to be very cautious About baptizing very young

children and and accepting them as genuine converts.

Yeah, that is that is

a major concern one church in

particular people there that were simply not saved

they were they were not regenerate and I would include in that even some of the leadership

of having children walk down an aisle after

VBS because they've made a Professionally asking no question

having a numbers game and and bringing these people into the church is Not only dangerous, but

it's undefinitely the pendulum has swung in our own day

to This easy believism mentality and we need to be very wary of that I think.

On the other hand you bring out an excellent point Chris when you when you speak about Pato baptism.

And you say that because this is not merely if

you love them dearly and and that they're not

immune to.

The idea of a child going through confirmation classes and knowing the catechism and and some churches are guilty of

just rubber -stamping that process Instead of truly searching out whether or not this child is

bearing the fruits of faith and repentance.

Yeah, and many Pato Baptist churches and and as you just said we love our Pato

Baptist brethren.

I probably interview just as many if not more Pato Baptist on my show than I do Baptist

just because I think more Pato Baptist are Getting books published.

Yeah, but and I consider some of my most brilliant and godly

Friends and brethren Are among the Pato Baptist, but

It seems that in some churches the child would actually have to You know commit armed robbery

or burn the church down before they would be considered An unregenerate person.

You actually in some cases have to be an overt enemy

of Christ and a scandalous unrepentant believer to be viewed that way if somebody is

just apathetic and Unexcited about his faith

and you know In many other circles might be considered just a nominal Christian

The the Pato Baptist very often not all the time very often would be hard -pressed to question

the regeneration in such a person.

Yeah, I it's not merely

a Presbyterian problem.

It is a problem

grandfather Solomon stuttered in the whole halfway

to New England.

This is something the church has really a

right

concern.

We ought to be very concerned but we ought to preach the gospel to them even as we

Catechize them and we ought to as we instill a worldview in them That is that is absorbed

with God and his glory and his sovereignty.

Urge them to repeat even the you know.

Obviously Presbyterians believe in a conversion.

They don't presume Salvation or at least the best ones that I

I think that this is a problem regardless of what? denomination we're in.

We have to do a better job of Raising our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord not assuming

their salvation and not being pressured.

You know our friends children, you know are admitted to the church and in ours aren't yet.

You know, sometimes pride can get in the way of that first that where pride

can really inhibit the spiritual development of our children and We need to be I think very

very careful with that and just be faithful preaching the gospel at church and at home.

Oh.

Amen.

And when in your life.

Did you?

Receive the call from God to enter into the pastoral ministry.

How did that call manifest itself in your life?

About the age of eight.

I felt an internal preach the Word of God.

What does that mean to an eight -year -old?

You know, I don't really know I I just knew that the the pastors that were in my life.

My uncle being one of them very involved in my life.

And I just knew that it seemed compelling to me what they did a week in a

week out and preaching the Word of God.

I never had a real clear where I would be a pastor or a

missionary.

I just knew this matter of preaching where you're standing before God God's people.

There was something internally compelling About that to me from a very young age

the the elders of

your abilities desires within you.

And so that began to happen when I was a teenager.

Began encouraging me to speak publicly first to the youth group and before the larger church

I've ordained as a teenager

and as you do that you you people begin to confirm externally that yes, this is

this is more of a matter of the Lord's calling on this man's life, and it's less of a matter of

Something that he just wants to do and it works out differently with everyone.

But for me there was strong internal call than the strong external call and by that point

point no return.

I mean, what are you going to do everyone around you that loves you senses?

God's calling upon your life and so explain.

With Ligonier.

Yeah, I said.

I posted that.

Discussion he had on my Facebook page.

Yeah, I mean I thought what he said was just spot -on where it's not that

Pastors we couldn't do something else, but it's that we must do.

And man that resonates with me.

There's nothing I want to do more and even if there was My conscience would not allow me to

pursue it.

So you eventually obviously Received a call to the pastor at Christ Reformed Community

Church of st. Augustine, Florida, and I'm assuming from my Memory

that that's the way the Floridians pronounce it st. Augustine not Augustine, right?

Yeah, theologians pronounce it Augusta.

Well some some don't but.

But tell us about the Christ Reformed Community Church in st. Augustine, Florida.

Yeah, well

it was in this area we are

located right right now

our mutual friend.

Pastor Keith Foskey who.

Pastors Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville.

Yes.

Yes, Keith and I are good friends and go back many years.

Yeah, the church.

I'm the founding pastor.

It was started by me and another gentleman who's also an elder

time what we have mutual friends who are pastors that connected us.

And I was obviously preaching in a different kind word was

using me there.

But after talking and praying through and seeking counsel The

Lord made it very very clear that this would be something worth pursuing.

So we established the church in September of 2015 and The church actually for

family worship and then out of that

was birthed a congregation.

That I'm very grateful and privileged to have the honor of pastor.

Is this a confessional Reformed Church.

Yes and.

Confessional, yeah, we would be a conglomeration of Westminster

people and second London Baptist.

We use both confessions.

We utilize both confessions in the public worship of terms of

teaching Sunday school and catechist believers.

Back.

We interestingly have quite a few Pato Baptists that that are part of our church and

and enjoy worshiping the Lord and enjoy the theology.

So there is our church is unique in that sense because Pato Baptists and

Believers Baptist people get along and love each other and there's a sweet Christian.

Well, we hopefully will repeat this information later.

But if anybody wants to find out more about Christ Reformed Community Church in st. Augustine, Florida

The website is Christ Reformed cc .com.

Christ Reformed cc .com.

Well as we said at the outset of the program our discussion today will be on Calvin's return to Geneva from his

exile and Why this date in history is significant.

In fact, the actual date is Let's see it is

This Friday, correct?

Yes, 41.

Yes, and I think it'd be wise even though This is a reformed show.

Although I don't exclusively interview reforms guests, but predominantly I do.

And I'm assuming that the majority of my listeners are reformed and know who John Calvin was.

I am knowledgeable of the fact that we do have Non -reformed listeners, we even

have some unbelieving listeners.

We even have listeners from outside of the Protestant Reformation we have Roman Catholics who listen and we even have

Muslims and members of cults and so on listening

on occasion.

They make their selves known to me through email and so on.

But especially for the sake of our listeners who either don't know who John Calvin was or have a

completely fictitious understanding of who he was.

Can you give us a very brief summary because our listeners can go to

the archives of iron sharpens iron radio .com and if you type in the search engine John

Calvin or even just Calvin you will get a number of past programs on the subject of John

Calvin and If you go to cvbbs .com which is the website for Cumberland Valley Bible

Book Service you will get a whole list of Books a huge list of books

on John Calvin and of course our other sponsors solid -gram -books .com solid

-gram -books .com they have a very large assortment of books on John

Calvin and some by John Calvin.

But if you could give us a brief summary of who he was just so we can get some context.

Sure.

Yeah, but he

wasn't in July 10th 1509

and like anyone else During that time period he grew up in a very staunch Roman Catholic home

perhaps even more staunch than than others because his father was some sort

of administrator with The large Cathedral that was located there and

oil his father was friends with priests and Knew some people very very high up

in the church and his father encouraged him from a very young age to to enter Enter the priesthood

which Calvin was was more than willing to honor his his father in that

but somewhere along the way Calvin's dad fell out of favor with the church and So when

he was when Calvin was about 14 years old He was sent to study

sometime during that period his father had a falling out with the church.

And so in 1528 when Calvin was about 19 years old his father said I want you to be a

lawyer.

And I want you to go to law school in law.

There's to know that Calvin was about eight or nine years old when Martin Luther

nailed the 95cc of Germany.

So that gives some context the Reformation was already occurring.

Calvin would have been and particularly when he began

his studies he Went off to Paris, and he became friends with people that were sympathetic

to Reformation teaching.

That along with the fact that his father fell out of favor with the Roman Catholic Church perhaps led him to be more

Willing to listen to these reform minded people.

I'll degree.

He got that in 1532.

Julie in 1532 it was a Commentary on the

thought that Seneca, but 1533

is really that the important year for John Calvin.

He was 24 years old and he writes in the introduction to one of his

commentaries on the psalms that he experienced in 1533 what he called a

sudden this to mean will

of Jesus Christ that he forsook the Works oriented

salvation of the Roman Catholic Church because

in that same year of 1533 he had

Because there were some reformed minded people there.

In particular a man by the name of Nicholas caught of the University of

Paris the story gets really interesting and picks up momentum.

A reformer and he was not a closet reformer.

He was he loved Luther.

He loved the doctrine of justification and so in his inaugural is for the beginning

of the school year he preached a message that upheld the doctrine of

justification.

Alvin was actually the writer

a stamp manuscript that was in Calvin's own handwriting

behind this and he fled town.

Before Nicholas Copp ever even was on the run people knew

Calvin was behind this in the meantime Copp was brought with

heresy and that left John Calvin in this period of exile from about

1533 to 1536 he moved around different parts of France.

But he ended up at the estate of a man by the name of Louis de Tillet.

Who was a wealthy man who had a beginning to grow

in his salvation and his knowledge of Christ.

He began to search out in this library the sources of the church fathers.

And he began reading the church fathers and comparing this with with what he

was taught in the Roman Catholic that the church fathers did not teach.

What the Roman Catholic Church was teaching in his in his own day?

Three -year period what was a period where he really grew theologically and

actually then published in March of 1536 at the young age

of 26 of the.

Now would you say that one of the Differences or some of the

differences that separated Calvin and Luther.

Of course Calvin had the shoulders of Luther to stand on

since Luther.

Although they were contemporaries as far as the fact that they lived at the same time as you were saying earlier

Luther is older and God used him to launch the Reformation

before Calvin.

But would you say that where Calvin eventually landed in his theology

You and I as Reformed Baptists would believe.

Typically anyway, I don't know if you will agree with me or not, but I'm a pretty certain you will.

Reformed Baptists would typically think.

In fact even Presbyterians would think that Calvin departed

from Rome in much more of a radical

and Vivid way than Luther.

Did that that Calvin?

Even though he perhaps had a more Spiritual

significant Significance or or should I say held the sack the sacraments

of the church?

With more spiritual significance than many Baptists and evangelicals do today.

He certainly did not attribute regeneration to the the

sacrament of baptism as Luther did and and

perhaps had a Less Spiritually

significant view of the sacrament of the Lord's table than Luther did.

I know that He was not strictly a memorialist as many

attribute to the teaching of Zwingli, although there is some dispute over how much of a memorialist

Zwingli was but he certainly

Today I think would have more of a Protestant understanding of those two sacraments than Luther.

Would do you agree with me on that?

Oh.

Definitely

because

not merely a reformer in terms of what he believed and in his theology.

But he he was out to reform the liturgy of the church.

He was.

You even think about William Farrell who was his his predecessor in Geneva.

William Farrell was Endorsing iconoclastic

Practical font in the three churches in Geneva

and although we don't know if

conviction Iconoclastic sort of activities we do know

that he.

He was good friends with William Farrell right.

Farrell is the one that basically guilt tripped him into.

Returning to Geneva wasn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, he was because Calvin was Was very shy.

He was an introvert by nature

He word he was reverent.

He he he understood the The importance of what he was doing

and He was an introvert by nature He wanted to to study

and the right pride he wrote the Institute's the first

edition in March of 1536 I think it was the very next August of 1536 that

He decided to in southwest Germany and

in God's providence.

He was forced to take a detour.

He had to take different roads and had to pass through Geneva.

He had no plans of passing through Geneva and

He ended up staying the night there and William Farrell who was already in Geneva at that time

Either of the Institute's be John Calvin was in Geneva and actually

pronounced a career.

You know, you're this you're this great organizer of theological truth.

We need you in Geneva and Calvin said yeah, I'm okay.

No, thank you I'm heading to Stroudsburg and I'm

gonna be just

talk that he was so sensitive in his conscience to the leading of God in his Life

God speaking through that is why he stayed in Geneva for his first in his

pastor for two years it was because he felt that that God might curse his

studies and he didn't want to dishonor the Lord and So yeah, we can give credit to William

Farrell right wrong or indifferent.

The threat was what made Calvin Come to Geneva in the first.

All right, when we come back from the break.

I just have a quick question for you about Farrell regarding something you said.

So if I forget to ask you, please remind me, but we're going to our first break right now.

And if anybody wants to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chr is a RN z en gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.

We'll be right right back with Andrew Smith and our discussion on Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile.

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And we are now back with our guest Andrew Smith pastor of Christ Reformed Community Church in st. Augustine, Florida.

We are discussing Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile and why this state in

history is significant.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and Your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And the question I had for you about Farrell Pastor Andrew is you said that he was

removing the baptismal fonts from the the sanctuaries or the church buildings.

Was this because he became at least at some point a Non -believer in

the ordinance or sacrament of baptism or what was the reason for that?

At the request of the town council of Geneva itself.

So one of the things that is very critical to understand about John Calvin and his ministry

He was not this this dictator that that everyone says that he was.

What by the time that he arrived in Geneva Geneva had separated themselves from the house of

Savoy?

The house of Savoy was ran by the Duke of Savoy and Basically the house of Savoy

controlled Geneva for years and years and years and the Geneva's did not like this.

They they wanted their political independence.

They didn't want to be ruled by this Prince Bishop, which was essentially a puppet sent from the house of

Savoy Located directly from the south of Geneva to tell them what to do.

And so a lot of political things were occurring even as Calvin was in school

in the 1520s Geneva began to make an alliance with some other

Swiss Canton's that were to their north burn and freeberg and

Now with burn and freeberg in Geneva.

They were sort of a triple -headed threat Against the authority of the house of Savoy and Geneva

successfully broke away Its independence from the house of Savoy.

But the problem was the Geneva didn't want to be controlled by anybody and so they they pulled out of their alliance.

Which the Bernese had helped them because in 1530 of the house of Savoy attacked

Geneva and the Bernese came to their defense.

But the Geneva's were staunchly independent people and they after separating from the house of Savoy and then

breaking their alliance with burn and freeberg.

They formed this town council.

There are actually two councils.

One was a large council made up of around 200 members and the second was a small council

that's what they called it made up of 25 members and The the council of 25

was appointed by the large council.

And so essentially you had a Large committee running the town and they saw

the Protestant Reformation As an opportunity and an excuse for a lack of a better

term to break away politically.

So a lot of this was political motivation.

And so when they hired Farrell who was a Protestant reformer To stir up the crowds.

He was a very fiery preacher.

They ordered him to begin encouraging the people to

activities and to remove Images and to remove the baptismal font.

So why would that been why would that have been synonymous with images?

Why would they I should say the baptismal fonts be hit have been synonymous with images?

Yeah, well just during the day, you know any any sort of public

teaching.

They wanted out of the churches and removed.

They wanted to revamp this this whole thing.

Now was Farrell a credo Baptist or something?

I mean, what I still don't get the significance of you know.

No again, he would not have been Anywhere near that everyone during that time period would have

been strict pedo Baptist other than the Anabaptists.

Yeah, exactly.

And No, the removal was more of a of a of a statement.

It was statement that was saying we are removing this symbol of

Roman Catholicism.

They viewed the baptismal font as a symbol of Roman Catholicism not so much a symbol of that.

It's hard for us to put ourselves in that context admittedly.

But but the issue was not against baptism.

It was against the Roman Catholic notion could save one sense that

entrance into the church was based upon Baptism as a baby

or were preachers of the gospel and they they said no.

This is Protestantism upholds that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ.

One Baptism is not In entrance into salvation.

Not know.

They did believe that it was a symbol of salvation and that it was a rite and a Ritual

that allowed one membership into the church, but they wanted to remove any Symbols

that could communicate a different gospel

from the following.

Huh, so so basically just because it was a physical object on

What would have been considered by the Church of Rome the altar it was just considered another

part of the.

Idols that.

You know would be in existence there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because they were taking over the Protestants were taking over churches in

some of the churches and I'm not sure about the cathedrals again.

St. Pierre Where Calvin eventually pastored was one of three churches, but it was also a

cathedral so it was a regional Location I think in some of the Catholic buildings, and I'm not

an expert on Roman Catholic architecture.

But I think a lot of the baptismal fonts were located right in the foyer or the

narthex of the church.

Because they believed entrance into the church was synonymous with entrance into

salvation which they believed was synonymous with Baptism because they believed in baptismal

regeneration.

So again if that that is true that highlights the significance of removing something that's in the very entrance

of the church that Regenerations people grew up thinking that I'm

saved you know if I'm baptized into the church I have salvation.

I follow the sacraments, and I'm good to go.

So they wanted to do away with that.

It emphasized Faith in Christ,

okay, well tell us before we.

Have you introduced to us?

Calvin's return to Geneva.

Tell us about the actual exile itself and why it occurred.

The actual exile was.

Result of you know obviously at work both politically

and religiously.

You have a whole town that not only changed their religion from Catholicism to

Protestantism.

But they they changed their whole government so that now they were operating by a committee.

And it's it's really interesting that William Farrell had to convince the town council to even

hire John Calvin to begin with the town council was very

Apprehensive because they actually called him in the registry of the minutes when they hired him they

simply called him that Frenchman and They didn't like the fact that he was a foreigner,

and they didn't even hire him initially as a book reader of Scripture.

Just imagine that for a minute although Calvin was young He was the writer of the

Institutes of the Christian religion.

And that just shows you the there wasn't a great deal of spiritual maturity

or maybe even spiritual Qualities at all with this town council and now they're in

charge of not only the town But they're in charge of the church as well.

They they are the bosses as it were of The pastors these Protestant

pastor removed and

all of that.

Calvin didn't receive a paycheck even though He was promised one for several months.

Working in Geneva he eventually you know became a pastor.

William Farrell and John Calvin and Farrell was really the the one leading the whole thing in Calvin's first stent

that Farrell was 20 years older than Calvin and So he was the leader of this thing and

they came together.

And they decided the way to reform the town and this is where that the tensions began to rise Was by

producing and so they they wrote a catechism which was

largely based off of Calvin's original Institutes his original edition was written

more like a catechism for young people and So they essentially copied and pasted

Material from the Institutes for a catechism they came up with this confession of faith.

The the town council embraced it very early on they embraced the confession.

They made an oath the town council did in May of 1536 that they would live according to the

gospel and the Word of God.

They printed and distributed the confession in the catechism.

They had these documents read out loud in public assembly on the Lord's Day to

embrace this Protestantism.

But included in in that confession was the all -important doctrine

excommunication.

So did not did not like the fact that Calvin and Farrell had included that within

their documents and so Without telling them they amended

from the documents that spoke about church discipline.

Obviously as you can imagine Calvin and Farrell believed that Excommunication,

you know putting someone outside not a true believer Who was living

in open was unacceptable and the Reformation simply could not

continue.

If the church was not pure.

In fact, let me pick up right where you left off because we have to go to our midway break right now.

So remember we will pick up on discipline in the church.

When we return this is our midway break, which is longer than normal because grace life radio 90

.1 FM in Lake City, Florida who air this show airs this show twice a day in a

pre -recorded format.

Both 8 to 10 a .m.

And 8 to 10 p .m.

They require a longer break in the middle because they air their own public service announcements.

To localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City, Florida, which is a requirement of the FCC that the programming be

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So while they are bearing their Public service announcements.

We are our globally heard commercials.

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First of all, we thank you for your patience as this break is longer than normal.

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have for pastor Andrew Smith on Calvin's return to Geneva from his exile or any a

Question on John Calvin or the Reformation?

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If your question involves personal and private matter, don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages with more of pastor Andrew Smith and Calvin's return to Geneva

from his exile.

Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio.

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We just have a couple of quick announcements to make regarding events.

The first is On thursday and friday december 19th and 20th I am returning to new

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This is a conference That is hosted and orchestrated by sermon audio .com.

And if they are running an event, you know that the speakers are extremely sound and faithful to the scriptures.

That's december 19th and 20th thursday and friday and there's no better time Uh of the year to go to new york

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This is a conference exclusively for men in ministry leadership.

Especially because the venue is so small they can seat only less than 200 people there.

Uh, the speakers include at this year's conference Dr. Stephen j lawson.

Paul washer reverend jeff thomas reverend armand tamasian.

Richard colwell jr.

And andrew quigley.

If you would like to join me there thursday and friday december 19th and 20th in new york city go to the foundations conference

.com.

The foundations conference .com.

Then january i'm packing up my bags again.

And this time i'm heading down south again.

For my fourth g3 conference at the georgia international convention center in college park,

georgia.

Which is a suburb of atlanta?

I am so excited about this conference because as always.

The speakers are phenomenal and the roster is extremely long.

And very impressive as always.

The speakers include once again, we have paul washer and dr. Stephen j lawson on the roster at this

conference.

Uh, we have my dear friend. Dr. James.

All right of alpha and omega ministries.

We have my friend.

Dr. Tom askew the founder of founders ministries.

Or I should say the executive director of founders ministries.

Which is the calvinistic ministry within the southern baptist convention.

My friend todd friel of wretched tv and wretched radio.

Derek thomas who is certainly a world -renowned name especially amongst reformed

christians.

Stephen j nichols who's the president of reformation bible college in sanford florida.

The college founded by the late r .c. Sproul and ligonier ministries.

Uh, my friend Kosti hin who's going to be returning soon as a guest to iron sharp and zion radio the

nephew of the notorious heretic benny hin.

Uh and kosti would not be upset by me saying that because he has publicly renounced.

And warns against his own uncle.

And he has repented of the heresies.

And the lies and the deceptions and the charlatan act.

Put on by his uncle and his minions.

That have been leading many people unfortunately and tragically into the gates of hell.

So Kosti, uh warns about his own uncle as often as he gets the opportunity.

I would strongly urge you to see him and hear him wherever he may be speaking.

And the list goes on of very impressive speakers.

And of course if you heard as you heard from my ad with dr James r white in the beginning of the program the

new edition or the latest edition.

Uh to the roster is john macarthur himself.

Now I would go even if it was just john macarthur preaching uh, and by the way, if you uh

have any intention of registering for an exhibitor's booth.

If you have a parachurch ministry or a business that you want to promote.

Just like i'm man there for iron trip and zion radio every year I would strongly urge you to do so quickly because with

john macarthur added to the lineup I think that they are going to have a thousand people more than they normally have.

They normally have over 5 000 people At this conference.

I think they're going to have over 6 000 people and they do run out of room uh for registration for exhibitors

booths, so I would strongly urge you to register for one if indeed that applies to you

Before they do run out of room if you want to join me there thursday January 16th through saturday january 18th

at the g3 conference go to g3 conference .com g3 conference .com to register.

The theme this january is worship matters worship matters.

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That is also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today.

Uh, that is pastor andrew smith of christ reform community church in saint augustine, florida.

We are discussing calvin's return to geneva from his exile.

And this is actually a date in history this friday, uh, friday the 13th Friday

september 13th.

So if you want to join us send us a question to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com and uh.

Just uh, please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal private matter.

Pastor andrew we were discussing church discipline before we went to the break.

Uh, so if you want to pick up where you left off in regard to calvin And farrell in in

relationship to church discipline.

Yeah, I think

benny hinn

and one of the interesting things about benny hinn is he obviously says

that It's his calling to them and it

was the great theologian bb warfield who referred to calvin as the theologian of

the holy spirit.

Warfield meant by that was Not um so much the extraordinary work of the

holy spirit.

The signs and the wonders and those sorts of lies the ordinary work

of the preaching of the word of god.

To save a soul to regenerate a soul to give new life as the person hears the gospel.

The power of the holy spirit and applying the word of god so that they bear

fruits of repentance and live a life that I

think warfield is is certainly right in his analysis of that because.

Was not to preach morality for the sake of morality.

Calvin was a preacher of the gospel and he simply believed that without the preaching of the gospel.

Of lives wouldn't be changed.

But if lives were changed by the gospel.

Then people should be held accountable and you don't want people in the church who who are not giving evidence.

That they've been born from above or born again.

And as I stated earlier the town council many of them were just not true believers.

They promoted and allowed Actually legalized prostitution.

In the city of geneva, which was led by a woman who was nicknamed queen of the brothel.

Many of the leaders of the libertine party which opposed calvin practiced Openly.

Calvin was concerned that if a reformation was going to take place god's church had to be

purely of the day.

Was when the government of burn?

Held a synod in laison.

And in this synod the burn was at that time considered the model protestant city.

So we would maybe consider geneva that as we look back on history.

But during that time period burn was sort of the leader of the protestants in that region.

And they had great persuasive powers and they made a suggestion Regarding the use

of unleavened bread in the lord's supper council, and this is just one example

went behind calvin and farrell's back.

And said we're going to now serve unleavened bread so much that

calvin and farrell were opposed to the use of unleavened bread.

As much as it was by principle the town council trying to go above them in terms of a sacrament of the

church.

You know without even telling them.

So they made the joint decision that on easter sunday april 21st 1538 Calvin and farrell's

that once they preached their sermons.

Farrell was preaching at one church on one end of the town and calvin was preaching at the cathedral st. Pierre's.

Once they got done preaching they weren't going to serve the lord's supper.

They were going to refuse to serve it because there were unrepentant people on the council.

There were unrepentant adulterers leadership and this is the time when the leadership of the church

was.

You know there were men on the town council who also served as elders.

And.

People were so upset that swords were drawn.

Calvin had to be escorted to his house.

They were threatening his life.

He boldly came back that sunday evening and preached again.

But the town council met three times once on sunday.

And then again on monday and then again on tuesday of that week following that easter sunday and they voted to.

Uh.

Basically kick calvin and farrell Out of geneva.

They were gone and and it when you when you study it you realize That this was an issue of

this was the town council.

They they wanted their independence.

They not only didn't want to be ruled by the house of savoy.

They didn't want anyone telling them what to do.

And so it's not so much a failure on calvin's part, although he was young and green and

And really didn't know what he was doing.

He had no pastoral experience up to that point.

A lot of it was just with the town council that was very evil and It's

interesting that that william farrell had two stints in geneva prior To calvin coming

and and farrell was kicked out twice before calvin even got there.

And in fact, there was a whole conspiracy to poison William farrell with

poisonous mushrooms.

These were the people that calvin dealt with and we oftentimes think where calvin was this dictator.

And he just went in and said you're going to do it my way.

That wasn't it at all.

He was more than willing to work with the town council, but it's hard to work with unregenerate.

By the way, I want to quickly mention since you mentioned bb warfield in connection with the

holy spirit earlier.

Bb warfield the 19th century princeton divine.

Uh, he has a.

Well, he didn't actually write the book.

But the book has been published by solid ground christian books.

Uh entirely made up of Bb warfield's writings on the holy spirit.

It's a collected.

A book of writings from various sources all by bb warfield.

It's called the person and work of the holy spirit.

By bb warfield.

With an introduction by sinclair ferguson one of my greatest living preachers.

Or favorite living preachers, I should say.

Uh, if you would like to purchase this book, it's almost half off.

50 off.

Put a solid ground books .com.

Solid ground books .com.

And you can put in the search engine the person and work of the holy spirit.

And this book by bb warfield will come up.

You have to scroll down to see this book.

But it's down there on the list.

Benjamin b warfield.

And uh, of course you could also type in warfield.

And this book will come up as well.

The person and work of the holy spirit.

Uh, we have a listener.

Uh, let's see here.

We have rj in white plains, new york.

And rj says other than calvin's views

regarding infant baptism.

And his understanding of church polity or government.

How much do modern day reform baptists have in common with john calvin?

That would be.

We we have far more in common with him than not.

Uh, for instance one of the one of the great, uh.

Things about the reformed heritage is that it's not simply About head knowledge.

If you study the great reformers of the past they were men who loved god.

Calvin was an example that his motto.

Was the picture of a hand holding a bleeding heart being offered up to god with the

capital god promptly and sincerely.

Calvin said on one occasion what help is it to know a god with whom we have nothing to do?

That if we know god by his grace.

Um, and we've we've had christ revealed to us by the holy spirit.

Uh, then we will want the relationship with this god.

We will want to nurture this relationship.

We will seek to honor and glorify god with our every being.

Um so much easy believism today.

So much antinomianism.

Um calvin would not tolerate that because someone who claims to know god is someone who

loves god someone who is devoted to god.

In the opening section of the institute calvin says the true wisdom revolves around two concepts

number one knowing god.

And number two knowing ourselves and god is

more than just theological knowledge.

This is heart knowledge.

This is a devotion to god.

Which is why he speaks about piety.

Which is just another word for spirituality.

He defines it as that reverence that's joined with the love of god.

A lot about the love of god.

He spoke a lot about one's commitment to god and if you did a study of his

sermons and you just.

You collected the data of

calvin is applying the word of god exhorting the congregation.

Where he's developing theological concepts.

I would challenge someone to do that and I think you'll find that.

Overwhelmingly calvin is about application now.

He grounds his application in theology.

But his goal is to get to the application because he wanted to see hearts and

lives changed ones that we can.

We can learn from him and emulate from his life and his teaching.

We have susan margaret in dauphin county, pennsylvania.

Who says you were talking earlier about some of the distinctions between? john calvin and

martin luther his predecessor.

Would one of them be that john calvin was also much more

clear and detailed in a systematic theology than luther who attributed

Much more to mystery than calvin.

Yes, I would say definitely so and I I would allow philip

malingston to answer this

question.

Philip malingston said Of john calvin that he was the

theologian sir.

And yet from a lengthens viewpoint He saw calvin as the theologian.

He was the theologian of the church that that clearly and systematically

organized the doctrine of the reformation which is Seen in the institutes of the christian religion, which went

through five editions.

This was calvin's magnum opus and in many ways is still considered the the

foundational um systematic theology if you will of the reformation though.

Originally, it was written as a catechism.

So again, it goes back to he refused to separate theology from heart devotion

into a systematic theology and vice versa and.

But there's no question that he was more clear on theological issues.

Um chris, you were right.

You mentioned the sacrament of the lord's supper

said about something.

He did he used to always say he didn't want to go beyond the mysteries of god and the lord's supper was one of those.

He he admitted there was a mystery to the partaking of it that he didn't fully understand.

There was a special union and communion that took place Between the believer and christ in that but he didn't try

to spell it out like luther did with Consubstantiation and the roman catholic church did

with transubstantiation.

Calvin was was happy to let the tensions lie where they were.

On certain doctrines, but where scripture was very clear.

Yes, calvin calvin brought out that clarity in a way greater in my opinion than any theologian

of the reformation.

So Uh in that circumstance when it came to the lord's supper It was calvin

that uh Relegated more of the issues behind

or underlying that ordinance of sacrament.

Uh.

And relegated, uh more of that to mystery than than luther.

But luther.

According to our listener and according even to my own understanding Luther

more commonly would say it's a mystery which is why for instance.

Uh and correct me if i'm wrong Luther more often.

Uh.

Contradicted himself and was not as logically consistent as calvin because for instance you have

martin luther who believed in solo fide Justification by faith alone and yet also believed in

baptismal regeneration.

They seemed to totally contradict themselves Whereas calvin was more logically consistent About

those things did not believe in baptismal regeneration and saw

The the had more of a consistent Consistent and logical stream of thought and teaching

when it came to.

Uh.

Salvation being purely and 100 Uh of the gift of the

sovereign grace of god, uh and and more completely

Removed man's activities From salvation than did luther am

I.

Am I making sense here?

Yeah, you

may come on

the

doctrines

of oh,

yeah,

he uh.

He actually still believed In indulgences.

He just did not believe in the abuse of the sale of indulgences.

Yeah, that's right.

And so by the time that you know, that's 1570 by the time that calvin is in geneva in the 1530s.

And right the reformation had gained so much momentum at that point that the

lord and his grace just began to raise up men.

That begin to clarify these doctrines.

In in a greater way, uh, and and even someone like luther as much as we love luther and

respect luther.

Um, I do think there there was far more clarity.

Um, and I heard robert godfrey say one time that calvin was not tied to it.

Very happy to just be biblical and that's that's another great historical observation by dr

Godfrey to say that there's far more we have in common.

And I would say we have far more in common with calvin than we do luther and

reformed baptist.

Because he was so relentlessly biblical.

He was not tied to any one system.

Whereas luther, you know what it it was more of a process for him to divorce himself from some

of those roman catholics.

Right, uh, we have Arnie in perry county pennsylvania who says how

to you.

How do you respond to those who say?

We should not hold calvin in high esteem in any manner shape or form.

Because he consented to the murder of michael cervidius.

And even though we who are trinitarian christians Believe that cervidius was a heretic

most christians today Including the most orthodox of reformed and confessional

christians.

Do not believe in the murder of heretics.

So how do you respond to those who say that we should just ignore calvin because

of this.

Acquiescence to murder.

Certainly don't want.

The first would be a biblical observation and then secondly an historical observation

um biblically.

You know the author of hebrews in the great hall of faith chapter in hebrews 11 tells us.

You know that that we have those who have gone before us and we are to look to these who have gone before us who

had faith we we are to.

To see that uh, we're surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses as he goes on to say in hebrews 12

verse 1.

And we are to have examples who love the lord.

Moses wasn't perfect.

Joshua wasn't perfect.

But we still use them as examples.

I think the bible would support.

One example now with that being

said clarity and context, uh to the

situation with michael cervidius.

In the first instance michael cervidius was who was running away

for his life from the roman catholic church because he didn't

and um there was some correspondence between calvin and um.

And cervidius that someone tried to set up a meeting at some point that never worked out.

Through his letters and correspondence that that he was unmovable and unyielding and calvin said look if you come to

geneva.

And you expect to find safe haven.

You won't find it here, you know calvin warned him.

He said don't do not come here.

It will not be good for you.

Cervidius went anyway.

And uh calvin did not serve as the judge.

Calvin did not serve as the executioner.

Calvin did not physically murder cervidius.

Calvin was an expert witness.

He brought the case of prosecution.

He mounted the evidence that in fact cervidius was a heretic.

Um, and it is true that calvin followed the normal protocol sign what he did

which was heretics.

Were executed.

Calvin did plead for a more merciful execution than the genevan government.

Uh, actually, uh.

Executed him Tragically by burning him at the stake and that's right.

That's exactly right.

Chris.

They they uh, it wasn't just geneva, but it was tix needed to burn at

the stake.

That was very common Calvin after he mounted all the evidence pleaded with the town.

That's a much more merciful

Refused to which again shows that calvin didn't have full authority in this thing at all.

He was Trying to be faithful now.

I say that without endorsing or justifying at all calvin's involvement in cervidius's death but

I think if we're going to be Objective and we're going to be honest we're going to be forthright with history.

We need to understand the context in which calvin operated and he was not operating any differently Um

than anyone else during that day.

And in fact as you pointed out chris, he he wanted Mercy on cervidius in the way that he

actually died.

So I don't I think that that um, Calvin is a wonderful example of a pastor of a

preacher of a christian.

Uh, I think we can learn a lot.

From his life and unlike.

Like the slanderous claims of many of our fundamentalist baptist friends who are

anti -calvinist John, calvin had nothing to do in fact even

in geneva.

Historically, there were not anabaptists executed there.

Uh, and certainly, uh, john calvin had nothing to do with the execution of anabaptists, even though he wrote in

extremely negative ways against anabaptists.

There were never any anabaptists executed, uh with any consent of john calvin.

Yeah, that's a that's a good point chris to remove these these all these stereotypes.

I have a I have a pastor friend who is an anti -calvinist and he said I will never

Follow the teachings of a man who was a murderer of baptists.

He didn't murder any baptists uh, in fact.

You know, he really even though he wrote against Anabaptists, which are a different

group than baptists.

Um, they were not uh.

Really a severe problem in the vicinity where where calvin taught so.

Well, we have to go to our final break right now.

Uh, and if you'd like to join us, this is our last segment of the show With andrew

smith, so please send us your question immediately to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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This is the final Segment of our interview today with andrew smith.

On john calvin.

Do you have anything else to say before we go off the air regarding calvin's return from exile?

Well just from exile, yeah.

Exactly.

But yeah, he uh.

He his first stint, uh was only two years.

He was exiled.

Um, and he went to stroudsburg where he Basically did a mentorship underneath martin bueser

which was a prominent theologian and it was here that he he really matured and um.

Some of the rough edges were chiseled off.

He married a widow of an ana baptist.

She brought two children into his life and they had a child of their own that that died at birth.

So he experienced the a growing family the tragedy of losing a baby and then the

A cardinal in the name of uh, giacoppo Sadaletto sent a letter to geneva about a year after

calvin was kicked out trying to persuade the genevans to return back to roman catholicism.

And the town council just didn't know what to do.

So they they called upon john calvin to help them.

And one of the greatest pieces of literature of the protestant reformation.

I would encourage all the listeners to try to get a copy of this is john calvin's reply

to giacoppo sadaletto this cardinal in rome and um calvin just tears him to

shreds, uh in a good way and the genevans from

adopting and going back to roman catholicism.

And they are able to persuade the genevans are calvin in returning.

And calvin and this just shows his grace and we can end with this when calvin returned to

geneva.

He said that he felt it was his duty.

That was the only reason he was going back because he would rather die a hundred deaths.

Than go back to geneva where people named their dogs after him and hated him but he said that

uh.

He wanted to return because it was his duty.

And he when he ascended the pulpit his first sunday back he picked up in his preaching.

Uh from the very next verse where he had left off of in his exposition of the scriptures.

Um, I think that the testimony to his trust in the power of god's word to change these people in geneva.

I think it's a also a nod to his Graciousness and not getting up and lecturing the

people of geneva and how could you kick me out and do this to me?

He had measured and tempered demeanor in the pulpit and he trusted in

the Expositional preaching of god's word to produce change which it did for the next 23 years geneva

completely changed.

Interestingly, he didn't become a citizen until 1559.

He but he died in 1564.

So they didn't even accept him as one of their own until just shortly before his death.

So there's so much more that could be said about him but his return was in god's providence.

God used him mightily.

And we have a lot to be grateful for to the lord.

And bringing calvin back to geneva because the reformation simply would not be what it was.

If the lord hadn't have done that in his providence, but we want you to return every month for a significant

date in history.

And we look forward to that.

I just want to remind our listeners that the website for christ reform community church in st Augustine florida is

christ reform cc .com christ reform cc .com.

Thank you so much pastor.

Andrew.

Thank you.

Everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write.

And we want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives That jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.