July 21, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James white.

The Cost of the Human Soul in Bailey Smith's Soul-a-Month Club

Well, I figured out the value of the human soul today. I was directed to a link for the Bailey Smith ministries soul a month Club. Soul a month Club and in describing the soul a month Club Mr. Smith here says I was at Peace Baptist Church in Wilson, North Carolina and made the statement that for every $48 given to Bailey Smith ministries.

Someone will get saved a Couple after service said to me. Why don't you start a soul a month Club? We would like to send you $48 a month ministry born and. Then then there's a little discussion of this picture.

Years ago I read of a ship that had gone down the Atlantic and a part of the cargo was a large crossed. We delivered to a new church. It was floating in the water and a crew member of the sunken ship climbed on the cross to save his life.

And he was reaching out to get others to the cross. Wow. I asked a graphic artist draw me a picture of that and here it is. Don't you love it? It grabs my heart every time I look at it. Well, that's okay.

See yourself saved by the cross and with $48 a month you are bringing someone drowning in sin to safety. What a privilege and responsibility and. So, oh and then at the end, there's a PS by the way. Some sure in some churches it costs 100 ,000 to $300 ,000 to see one convert.

Please make your check to Bailey Smith ministry. Some are giving $96 a month representing a soul for the husband and the wife. There you go, folks 48 bucks is the cost of the human soul $48. I think we need to figure out what our cost is.

And we figured out our cost. Yet, I we need to we need to. We'd try this. Someone was in channel saying they do it for for 20 and that they were the Walmart of evangelism.

So, I don't know. That's some pretty serious bank. You know, that's a lot. That's pretty hard to compete.

Well, that's very hard the hundred thousand to three hundred thousand. That's that's huge, but I'm not really sure what he means there. Anyway, there's there is the response. There is the inevitable result.

I'm sorry the inevitable result of arminianism there it is now, of course, he wouldn't say he's an Arminian because as We we were trying there's there's a group trying to arrange a debate back. Sometime next year in the Midwest.

They've been having really good turnouts for debates. They've been having and their students want to do a debate in Calvinism, and I'm I'm happy to do it. But we can't find Arminian who will do it. We've been turned down by Geisler hunt turned us down again.

Of course. We'll be talking a little more about that. He's he's not gonna expose himself to that kind of situation and and so One of the people that we've had some contact with is dr Ergun caner and I think he's at Liberty now.

He may be the Southern Baptist school someplace I'm not certain exactly where he is right now, but he's a Muslim convert and We had had some contact with him about possibly doing a debate at first. He had said that's that's great.

That's fine but then He's sort of seemed to be cooling off to the idea. And so I I gave his name and email address to this group and said we can try, you know we're trying everybody and and He sent back an email declining the debate yesterday.

And one of the things he said was I'm not an Arminian. I'm a Baptist. I'm not an Arminian. I'm a Baptist and I was like I started I started chuckle a little bit when when I saw that and and I'm like How do you how do you respond to that particular thing.

I I said to him in essence I said That's a little bit like saying I'm not an American. I live in Phoenix, you know. It's I know all sorts of Arminian Baptist said that they are not mutually exclusive categories.

But more so he said to the the man who had contacted him I hold to neither the cultic views of reprobation nor limited atonement. I Only way I can read that is that he's identifying the idea of reprobation or limited atonement as as as cultic and.

So I did write to him finally and because I hadn't actually written to him other people writing to him and I finally wrote to him. And I said, I mean, you're sure you want to say that so anyway. He's associated with this this Bailey Smith thing too.

You can see a picture of him on the website here. It's a Bailey Smith org solo month dot ASP if you want to take a look at $48. And of course I said here going. What audacity what Audacity to tell people they'll send you 48 bucks.

You'll save a soul. I mean talk about man-centered theology. Wow, I just. Anyway If you've been following the blog, you know that Dave Hunt is done again. I Got a note yesterday saying that he had a new book out.

And so I looked at his website and they finally they finally linked it and So you can look at in PDF and the the actual printed version it's only a hundred like a hundred and four pages very small but we have We have a user-friendly book on Calvinism now, and of course immediately I just stop again.

Oh, wait a minute. Wait, wait a minute. This man is having to put out a new edition of what love is this to take out the the You know Hebrew original of Acts 13 Garbage and he's had to change his approach in these things numerous times as I put on the blog.

He's done the theological equivalent of a face plant every time he tries to address this subject when is enough enough and and if he thinks as when people contact him and again the same group contacted him he said I Dave thinks it's always said in the open letter Dave thinks what he said in the debating count and that's enough.

Don't don't need to do anything more. Well, then why are you doing more? Why are you putting out CD sets and cassette tapes and all the rest of stuff? About Calvinism if you You know, it's funny. I would it would he declined challenging Carl Keating if if Carl Keating contacted him I mean if there's now a Calvinism section right along with Roman Catholicism on the Berean call website so, you know, it seems that a lot of these folks just are Becoming exceptionally Strong in their denunciation of reformed theology as being cultic and faults and misleading and and misrepresentation of God all the rest of stuff, but isn't it interesting only one side is willing to debate the issue the other side just wants monologues and We've heard that we've played We played some stuff from the pastor there in st. Louis.

I've never let a Calvinist in my pulpit to explain his position. I'd look like I wouldn't have a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness and So it's interesting I download the book and I read some interesting stuff on page.

It's page 20 in the PDF. It's page 22 of the book. I'm not sure how quite that works, but Under the subtitle a challenge to remain silent. I'm reading now with the recent upsurge of Calvinism a Number of leading Calvinists have begun to take a far more aggressive stance in its public promotion.

Many on both sides sadly are increasingly making this issue of matter of this issue a matter of fellowship in the Lord resulting in division a number of otherwise sound of churches in. Some churches members are forbidden to promote Calvinism even privately and others only Calvinists are accepted as members.

I'll stop there for a moment and say Well, I guess that wouldn't include my own church because we ask if you have Substantial agreement with the London Baptist Confession of 1689 so I guess that'd be a bad thing.

But of course that's been going on for a long long time and anyway. Of course the latter has been true of pastors and mission candidates for nearly For centuries and nearly all Presbyterian churches and even in some Baptist churches.

But now that position seems to be growing and hardening. Almost daily I found this subject was claiming a wider interest in greater importance than I had ever imagined. It seemed obvious that there was such there was great need for further research and writing to deal with this important issue as It began as this work gets interesting as it became known that I intended to write such a book now.

When was that that was right after the radio program that we did which Dave Hunt makes available on his website? You can get the the particular Not debate discussion. I was hosting a radio program at the time Filling in for Marty Minto the fellow who got canned back in Pittsburgh for his comments on the on the Pope.

That's when he has program here in in Phoenix at kpxq some claimed that out of ignorance of its true teachings I had already misrepresented reform doctrine. A Typical response from the Calvinist friends to whom I send an early manuscript for comment went like this quote the caricatures you present.

And the straw man you construct demonstrate to me that you have absolutely no understanding the reform position and until you do I would counsel that you refrain from putting anything in print and quote now that sounded almost identical to what I wrote to him and the reference on that is personal letter to Dave Hunt day at October 19th 2000 and so I went back and looked at my Correspondence and I had one from from July 20th of No, no, no what let me see.

This is October 11th of 2000 and this was October 19th, so this might yeah. Yeah, I just didn't find this exact statement. Maybe I just skipped it here, but I wrote a letter to him in October of 2000 same month and I was talking about Wanting to get him in you know to do another program because we were still on kpxq at that time.

And I said to him I'd very much like to review the book of which you speak. However, I feel it is my responsibility very open and telling you honestly that I do not believe you should publish on this topic.

The reason is simple given the character of the article in your newsletter and your direct admission that you have not read any of the key Works in this subject are those produced the Reformation since then or even before then Augustine's anti Pelagian writings, for example.

You are truly in no position to speak to the topic. It is simply not possible to give a meaningful rebuttal of a position that you do not understand. It would be like me seeking to write a book on advanced calculus while I might with sufficient study be able to do so I cannot even begin to do so given my current level of study the subject.

I've never even cracked a binding of an advanced calculus text let alone delve into the subject in any depth on the radio program. We did together a few months ago. I started out by asking you how you explained your siding with Rome on the key Soteriological battle of the Reformation that being the conflict between Roman synergism and reformed monergism.

You began by admitting your ignorance the reformers and their writings. Might I suggest there is no reason to critique a position without reading the original documents in which the position is espoused.

Surely you cannot believe that the likes of Calvin Bays of the crafters the Westminster in London Confessions John Owen Francis turrets and Jonathan Edwards Charles Haddon Spurgeon Charles Hodge William Cunningham BB Warfield Jay Gresham machen John Murray and modern writers such as RC Sproul or John Gerstner have never heard of your objections before.

Can you and Since volumes exist respond to those very issues. How can you reiterate them without doing the requisite work that would give you the necessary standing to do so? Further please be aware of the strength the reformed position is exegesis.

It is not by accident that the Puritans for example thoroughgoing Calvinist. They were emphasized so strongly a knowledge of the original languages of the Bible their ministers required to be thoroughly capable of rightly handling the word.

Of truth it is the exegesis of the text of Scripture that gives rise the reformed faith. Arminianism on the other hand is a philosophical position that arises from certain alleged philosophical necessities.

It does not come from the exegesis of the text. This came out clearly in our discussion when faced with passages such as John 6 37 to 39. You immediately left the text and went elsewhere. Arminianism has no meaningful counter exegesis to offer to John 6 or Romans 8 or Ephesians 1.

So I would strongly encourage you Dave to refrain from attempting to address a topic that you have already admitted is not an area of Your study. I wrote God's sovereign grace and drawn by the father in 1990.

I wrote the Potter's freedom in 1998 1999. I have dealt with this subject and your objections to it for many years now at the very least I have taken the time to study the issue sufficiently well to be able to address it fairly.

I do not believe your recent article nor discussion on the radio show that you have done the work Necessary for the writing of a book on that subject. But as it may I would sure like to have you on our program again soon.

And I invited him to come on which of course he he did not. I said I would invite you to a more focused Exegetical discussion. Let us discuss John 6 37 through 44. Let's present in-depth discussions the meaning of the text first then discuss how we come to different conclusions.

You have my presentation the Potter's freedom. You should have no problem pointing out the errors in my interpretation from the text itself. I simply do not find Arminians who can do this. I hope you will be the first let me know and so on so forth.

I'm hearing something in my headphones. I'm hearing myself talking. I don't I don't know what's going on here, but it sounds like a tape is being played or something and it's Coming through my headphones.

I'm not sure why anyway, that's what I wrote to to Dave Hunt in October of 2000. I was on the same time so if it wasn't me he's quoting. He certainly did get a very consistent response from everybody saying Dave you don't know what you're talking about.

But Dave doesn't handle being told he doesn't know what he's talking about very well and as a result He is simply unwilling to accept The the reality that he he might actually not not know what he's referring to when he's talking about something so He continues on this is again.

This is now page 23 of the book Letters began to pour into our ministry the Berean call from around the world many from pastors insisting That was unqualified to address Calvinism and urging me to seal my lips and drop my pen regarding this subject this topic.

It was suggested that I would lose many friends and alienate myself from leading Evangelicals most of whom were said to be convinced Calvinists furthermore who would publish such a book since the major publishers had brought out many books supporting the other side that's a little bit of the Calvinist control everything conspiracy.

What moved me most is a concern earnestly expressed by close friends that a book for me on this issue would cause division the last Thing I wanted we can just hear it now several friends told me here comes Dave Hunt again this time He's attacking Calvinists.

That concern weighed heavily upon me obviously not heavily enough. Then he says this this is interesting one must be willing to accept wise counsel now yes, that means that all these pastors who wrote to him and And Presented all sorts of things to him that he's never been able to provide a meaningful response to weren't giving him wise counsel.

But the advice to remain silent though given by so many out of genuine concern seemed after much prayer and soul-searching on my part to Be all advised then check this out. Spurgeon called the debate over God's sovereignty and man's free will a controversy which I believe to have been really healthy and which has done Us all a vast amount of good and quote Yeah, but Dave he came to the opposite conclusion.

She did my heart's desire is that this book will be only to God's eternal glory and the blessing of his people. And of course he does again Do the same thing I documented on the on the blog. He does the same thing with the the the Spurgeon quote.

He quotes it again He will not accept correction about what Spurgeon is talking about. He will not do so I go ahead if you'd like to play that that's that's that's fun. You can you can fire it up anytime you can you you just in case you need it.

I'm yeah, you lost it.

I'm queuing it again. Hang on here. We'll try this fancy machines. You know. That's what I was hearing in my in my headphones. I didn't think you could. You weren't supposed to hear that so.

Well, actually no one's hearing it. No kidding I.

Know exactly where it is though. So on the momento por favor. I I know I have the sound.

By it on my computer too. I just didn't. I just didn't actually, you know, cue it up.

Wait, let me do something here. Okay ready to go anytime you are. Yeah, really? Oh, there we go. Are you ready?

I'm you know, I've been ready for about a minute now nation. Well, first of all James.

I'm very ignorant of the Reformers. I have not had time to read them. There are truckloads I guess of their writings and I like to just kind of pretend that We're back there in the days of the Apostles before all of these things were written.

And I like to go to the Bible. So whether the Reformers said this or that I don't know. I disagree with a lot of Martin Luther, for example when I read his 95 theses on Indulgences and when I read the Augsburg Confession, it sounds to me like they were still pretty much Catholics.

So I'm I'm not trying to align myself with the Reformers. Or with anybody else. I just go by what the Bible says and.

There there you go. And that became that was that was what five years ago next month August of.

2000 yeah. Yeah, and I'm looking here on my system under my my hunt. Sounds I've got all sorts of things here, but I wonder if it's that one I've got all sorts of including the one where he says that he.

About six months. It was actually January. So that would only be five months later. I have the one where he's saying that he knew more about Calvinism than then. Most Calvinists do and all the rest that stuff and so, you know We've we've documented this this stuff for quite some time and and you know, this is nothing new people can go back through our our archives and listen to a lot of this but anyways Here comes a new book and It is in the form of a dialogue there really isn't anything new in it.

As you read through it you can see that he is seeking to a couple times respond to some of the Criticisms that have come his direction just without necessarily being very open about it. And you know the problem is am I my I have a number of problems the Dave hunt anymore.

But the main problem is is real simple. It's it's an honesty issue. It's it's simple honesty the he he has made mistakes, he simply will not admit them and He will not come out in the open and debate this issue.

Dave Hunt would lose a debate. It would be it would it would be absolutely so. Illustrative of the complete incapacity of his position to answer direct questions for him to have to debate this subject that's why he will not do it.

He just refuses to do it and The excuses that he continues to present are just that they are excuses. They are not answers. I stand ready. He's still cranking out the materials against Calvinism. No one knows Dave Hunt's position on Calvinism better than I do.

I'm the one co-authored the book with him. I'm the one who when we promoted the book through with Multnomah when we do radio programs. They'd have to book us for two different days because Dave wouldn't come on with me.

Those of you who heard the one time where he messed up and came on with me. Didn't know I was gonna be there until the program was already started could tell how upset he was by that and how he. And that was the the one hosted by the guy who was more Arminian the Dave, you know, remember that one and So, you know here it's so obvious to anybody that there's one side here that does the biblical exegesis.

There's one side here that is willing to do dialogue and debate and there's one side that that claims To do biblical exegesis, but won't touch the issues of the 10-foot pole. When you'd actually be forced to get into text and actually deal with it on a fair basis.

And is there anything new about this? No I'm afraid not. This is what we're seeing from all these folks and it seems that the people especially like in the Southern Bapst Convention. Oh, by the way, I keep forgetting to do this.

So I remind me when the program's over. I need to blog. The fact that Tom Askew now has a blog that he has joined the blogosphere and I need to blog The Tom Askew blog but people like the Founders Conference Tom Askew.

They know that there are people within the Sundance Convention really want to get rid of those folks. Remember, we played some clips a few weeks ago from the Southern Baptist. We played Johnny Hunt and we played Jerry Falwell.

These folks are really not open to discussion about this, you know what? I I just They are not open to it, I just saw there's a book called the potter's freedom to love the world never heard of it. It's supposed to be a reputation in my book.

Who's that by is that is that more of the same guy? That is that lavender the lavender book or something? If it if so, then yes, we have pointed out some of the Interesting issues concerning Dr. Lavender and his interesting use of the Greek language.

Anyway, so These folks want to come after Calvinism with fork and tongue. But they just want to they first want to cut your tongue out to make sure you can't say anything. That's that they know. What must it be like to have a theology that you know, you can never defend against someone who holds the opposite of that.

What is that like? I cannot even begin to understand that It truly just leaves me utterly. Yes, that's lavender. Yeah. To the person in the channel wondering about that Don't think the books out doubt it ever will come out if it is see the blog.

I point out some of the issues Regarding dr. Lavender on the blog a little while ago. So anyway, that's what's going on there. I my first thought immediately As soon as I saw this book in the form of is in is I can write like this and what I mean by that Is I can this is in a dialogue format.

I like writing dialogue type books you saw in in sola scriptura, that's a very useful form and If I didn't have stuff, you know staring me in the face right now that I've got to get done Especially regards is it to the the debate coming up?

It would not take long to produce a Book of equal length or even longer in dialogue format that that just lays this entire hunt argument open. And who knows maybe maybe after the debates over we could set aside a few days because it honestly if I if I just wasn't interrupted if I let other people blog for a few days and and Didn't have too much else going on.

It would only take quite honestly a couple days to to write something like that really really honestly would and it would be nice to have it to have it available and Who knows? Maybe that's something we'll do.

It's already been suggested by some others That that would be a possibility that we could do something like that. So well, we'll see what happens. So anyway, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number to call the program today Speaking of those who continue to speak out against that which they do not understand we have for quite some time Been addressing oh, oh That's all right, I guess Guess before we do that, we have a phone caller down in Houston, Texas.

Hello. How are you Aaron? I'm doing great.

What's up? I was listening to your Discussion on NT right? I don't remember where I got this. But you had mentioned because apparently they had spoken about or they had sung the hymn and can it be? by Charles Wesley.

And you had said that the third verse in it or it and I looked everywhere to find out what the original version of it Was. You know what I'm talking about?

No, I know that in I I don't. Wasn't that him? I could. I don't recall anything about NT right and then can it be but I know that that and can it be in the original version is is rather heretical and we sing a a fixed version of that because as I recall it says something along the lines of Emptied himself of all but love and I believe in See if I think I might have it in here.

Let me see if this is where we got it from or not. I I'm not sure I've got the modern Trinity hymnal here and I know it's not in the older one that we had. We had to actually paste a copy of it in. There it is 455 and Let me see if this is the changed verse.

Yeah here the the original was something about emptied himself of all but love and Bled for all of Adam's race or something along those lines the Trinity hymnals current version here Says humbled himself so great his love and Bled for all his chosen race to his mercy all so on so on and so forth.

So I don't I have no idea what you're referring to. I don't remember the well.

I know that's what you were talking about. I don't know where you were or what you were talking about.

It could have been any time over the past decade and in the 500 different places, okay? Well, thanks for that because I had been looking yeah, it's in the current Trinity hymnal, and I think I could be wrong about this.

But there's a White softbound type of hymnal Supplement that I've seen in some reformed churches. And I think the version of it in there is the same as the trim at Trinity as I recall. I think. But I could be wrong about that, but that's what I whatever wherever I was whatever I was talking about.

That's probably what I was was referring to is is I probably had sung it Differently than everybody else did. Someone channel is saying that I mentioned it when I spoke in Austin. I don't recall what I spoke about in Austin.

Well. Yeah, actually I would have now that I think about it Austin is where I talked about the new perspectives. That's probably where it was. It's probably an mp3 you got off of the web. And it was probably down there in Austin when I was addressing new Perspectivism or something along those lines, and maybe we had just sung it in In the you know before I spoke or something.

I that's got to be what it was must be on that note.

I read guy Prentice waters book uh-huh. Justification in the new perspectives on a call right. You have any other reading material that you would recommend for that.

Well, I look up at the the entire shelf of stuff on that and you know there's there's a tremendous amount of material that has been coming out. It all depends on on you know what level of Information you want to you want to get into.

I mean, I think we're going to be seeing some further publication of Books like Kim's and others that are on a fairly high level. I'm not sure about Materials that are going to be More accessible without everybody having to read Sanders and so on and so forth.

But that's certainly the one that's I'm gonna be speaking on the subject up in st. Louis. And that's what we're suggesting people read is Is the waters book right now just to give them up because it gives you it.

There aren't too many books out almost any other book is going to be focused on just one area. Yeah, and it's it's it's about the only thing it does what it does really at that point is and as far as providing the The breadth of discussion there, okay, okay, all right, all right.

Thanks a lot. All right, we're gonna take our break and then come back with Adam in Ohio with a comment on Dave hunt and then depending on the phone calls pick up with the Adrian Rogers discussion of hyper Calvinism.

But we're gonna take our break first be right back eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

The New Perspective on Paul and Recommended Reading

And true. What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free. A new cult secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a Defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen, but free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org.

Is the Bible true? Never before in history has the authority and inspiration of the Holy Scriptures been so viciously attacked by those outside the pale of Orthodoxy and within the walls of traditional evangelicalism itself.

Join us August 27th 2005 at the Sea-Tac Marriott for an historic debate between evangelical Christian apologist Dr. James R. White and world-renowned Jesus seminar co-founder and Bible skeptic. Dr. John Dominic Crossan as they debate a topic which every Christian should be concerned about.

Is the Bible true. Seating and tickets are limited. So call today 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 or visit a o m. I n org to reserve your seat today. That's 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 to be a part of this historic event That will illuminate the fault lines of faith between conservative and liberal Christians alike.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 2 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org.

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day. Progress it's not an easy way. It's a journey to the Sun. And welcome back to the dividing line, I'm just glad we got back.

Hopefully our theological insights today are a little bit better than our technical capacities. I. I don't know what's going on, but I expect to start hearing John Lennon in my headphones for you. I.

Need to get it sound by it, you know with one of the little tricycles with wobbly wheels.

Okay, I was wondering how long heat exhaustion lasted I thought that's only 24-hour thing. Hey be nice he died yesterday. Goodbye. It's a doctor. Dr. Doohan there. But anyways We need to go to our our callers.

Anyone brave enough to call in this program is. Well needs to be put on the air. So let's talk to Adam. Hi Adam.

I'm doing okay. I Listen to your discussion of Dave Hunt and I guess I can speak. I'm a Presbyterian so I guess I can speak from a non-biased perspective. No, I think he would include you in the biased group though, well anyways, I just noticed in the same thing my Nazarene.

Mm-hmm, and they're the Vicarians are reformed. Okay I mean and she listens to all these guys the same stuff in fact the Muslim guy that she mentioned she all and the thing. Is James the you're right.

You cannot get these guys to discuss it. No, I mean, I mean and the bad thing is they don't really they don't have a reason to I Mean they have so much to lose by it. I mean think about it. They have you just plop a couple of names like Tim LaHaye and you know Dave Hunt on the back of the book and it'll keep people from listening to the other side.

Yeah, you know what? I should suggest Tim LaHaye to the folks back there trying to set up that debate now. That would be that would be really fun.