May 4, 2017 Show with Ryan McGraw on “By Good & Necessary Consequence: Explorations in Reformed Confessional Theology”

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Our host, Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday.

On this fourth day of May 2017, I'm delighted to have someone back on

the program who rapidly became one of my very favorite guests of all on Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio, and that's Ryan McGraw, professor of systematic theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological

Seminary in South Carolina.

He's the author of a number of published works such as The Day of Worship, Reassessing the Christian

Life in Light of the Sabbath, and today we're going to be discussing one of his books, By Good and

Necessary Consequence, Explorations in Reformed Confessional Theology, and

it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens.

Iron Radio.

Ryan McGraw.

Thank you, Chris.

It's always good to be with you.

And in studio with.

Me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello, Ryan.

I'm looking forward to this interesting.

Subject.

Thanks, Buzz.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Ryan McGraw, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And Ryan, I know that a lot of Christians, needless to

say, a lot of unbelievers, when they hear the term confessional Christianity,

they may scratch their heads.

Many may even think, incorrectly, that we are talking about Roman Catholicism because of their

sacrament of confession or penance, which has nothing to do at all with what we're

talking about.

Can you give us a definition.

Of confessional Christianity?

Well, in terms of

thinking about Confession

Function, proper

Bible

teaches,

and

the

need for

different

things, for

example,

you might

have this...

And wouldn't you agree that every church, not necessarily every

group of churches or fellowship or denomination, but they might not all

be in lockstep agreement on a list of important things,

but nonetheless, wouldn't you agree that every church is confessional,

whether they recognize it or not.

They just either have a written confession or a verbal confession.

They either have a good, biblically solid, biblically orthodox confession, or they

have a bad confession, perhaps even a.

Heretical

confession.

Yeah,

when I

was...

Yeah, exactly.

You know, you have to consume, but

then they'll say no.

Yes.

We can either...

Go ahead.

No, no, you can go ahead.

I was going to say, we can either build on...

Yes,

and

even the statement, we have no creed but Christ, we have no confession but the.

Scriptures, even that is a creedal statement.

I ran into the same situation though.

This is.

The Reverend Buzz Taylor.

My first pastorate was an independent Baptist church, and

having come out of an interdenominational school, one of my first

duties was to try to figure out, well, okay, as a pastor of a Baptist church, what makes us

unique?

And it was very difficult for me to find good information that agreed with other information as

to what a Baptist was, until I finally came across the 1689 confession.

Like, oh, this is what it was about.

Right.

Well, it also reminds me of when some friends of mine

within the independent fundamentalist Baptist circles united

together to have a radio program on a station that I worked for years

ago, and one of the pastors was having a little bit of a

dispute theologically with me, and he said, well, one of the things I don't like about you Reformed

Baptists is that you have the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith.

We have the Bible.

We don't need anything like that.

And I said to him, do you know that you, in fact, I know that you know, because

you actually wrote it, that your group on this radio program,

since you were involving multiple independent fundamentalist Baptist churches, you

have a manual of who is eligible to participate on the show.

And you have a list of things bound together in a volume

that is probably five times the size of the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith, and you

have things in there such as all participants must be pre -millennial,

all participants must not have rock music in their congregations, all

participants must be Baptist and believe in the immersion of believers alone,

and the list went on and on and on.

And I said, this is your confession of faith, and it's five times the size of mine,

and mine is at least exclusively involving

theological matters.

Yours is going into all kinds of issues, even the way people dress and so on.

So, you know, I mean, it's really, people are often firing

accusations or insults at others, and they don't even realize that they are guilty of the very things they're accusing

others of.

Well, I have, I usually don't take questions this quickly, but there is a question I received that

kind of will help set the stage for the rest of the interview that I figured I might as well take it right away.

Daniel in Bakersfield, California says, Hello

Chris, I have a question for Ryan.

I know that Reformed Theology consists of more than just Calvinism.

What do you believe is the essence of Reformed Theology, or what does one have to

hold to in order to be truly Reformed in their theology?

I've heard it said that a person needs to hold to the three C's, Calvinism, confession,

covenant theology.

Does that sound right?

And he says, thanks.

That's Daniel in Bakersfield, California.

And of course, you and I, Ryan, might even have a different answer to that since I'm a Reformed Baptist.

But if you could answer Daniel's question.

That's a good question, and it's good to hear from a fellow Californian as well.

A lot of thought,

but a number of things

in theology must be a lot more than the five points of Calvinism.

First, when

we use

something as score, five points of

singled out in response to the five points of Arminianism

in

the early

Seventh

-Formed Theology,

or the

ministers

that you

are speaking, when

they come up, what are the distinctive features of the creeds and confession?

Roman Catholic

Reformed Theology and

Reformed Churches are defined by its creeds as well

as defined by the book of which we are speaking.

I think we have to

see if

distinguished or

who could be very expansive

could begin more simple.

Simpler, let me say this.

I think what stands for

sovereign

supremacy,

two great

presuppositions,

introduction to the foundation of

the

doctrine.

Would

the

doctrinist

lead

us?

Yes.

And

by the way,

Daniel,

you

have

won

a

free.

Copy of By Good and Necessary Consequence, Explorations in Reformed Confessional Theology,

compliments of our friends at Reformation Heritage Books, and it will be shipped out to you,

compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, bbs,

or biblebookservice .com, cvbbs .com.

So keep your eye open in the mail for a package with a return address of

cvbbs .com.

And keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron and contributing excellent questions.

I am assuming that you would agree that the main or the major

confessions of faith within the Reformed community would be the Westminster

Confession of Faith, the Three Forms of Unity, which would be the Belgic

Confession, the Canons of Dort, and the Heidelberg Catechism, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of

Faith for the Baptists, and the Savoy Declaration for the Congregationalists, and

the 39 Articles of Anglicans.

Anything that I left out that you'd care to add?

The only major one that I would add that's still

in use.

And let's go to the biblical foundations of

these confessions, the things that are drawn from scripture that are

foundational for Orthodox Christianity, and of course I'm using the

term Orthodox for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with the usage of that term

outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

We're not speaking about that.

Orthodox is a word that actually just means straight, and we are using the term to

mean sound, accurate, biblical, and so on.

But tell us about some of the biblical foundations of these.

Of

these

confessions.

Well,

as

a

minister,

I'll

be

trying

to ask,

and even...

Well,

thank you

very.

Much.

Oh, actually, that was my question.

I was going to thank somebody else for my question.

I don't think I've ever done that before on this program.

It's very difficult for me to thank anybody for anything, and here I am thanking somebody for something that I don't deserve.

Let's see.

We have another listener in Slovenia.

Joe in Slovenia says, I've never been a member of a church that had an official

creed or confession that it overtly adhered to.

I do remember in childhood seeing what was known as the church covenant hanging

prominently on the wall, but I don't remember any attempts to hold to its statements across the board by the

congregation.

My denomination does have a statement of faith, but I've never witnessed any churches or individual church

members overtly claiming fidelity to it in its totality.

In the congregations you and Brother Ryan are familiar with, is this also typical?

In churches that you are members of which do adhere to a specific confession, what

level of affirmation does an individual member have to express in order to be a member in good

standing?

Do they have to affirm total agreement with all points in their totality, or is there room for

having individual caveats and exceptions on specific secondary or tertiary issues?

Thank you so much for dealing with such weighty topics with such discernment.

That's a very good question because I don't know how much of a diversity you have in the

Presbyterian churches that you have been a member of, Ryan, but Reformed Baptists are not cookie cutter on this.

You will have Reformed Baptists insisting upon none

of the, well I shouldn't say none, but no agreement with

the 1689 confession outside of salvific issues to be a member, but they would say

that to be a member you must submit to the fact that that is the authority under the

scriptures, of course.

That is the governing confession of the church, and they would tell people seeking

membership that either don't know enough to agree or in disagreement with some or a lot

of it that they would have to promise not to undermine the teaching of

the church.

I don't know how diverse Presbyterians are on that issue, but if you could.

Comment.

You know, I

think it's

very useful.

I take

all

these

exceptions.

The problem,

say, I generally adhere to, then

maybe

the creed itself or the

creed is to unify us.

Unity can vary.

Some of

our...

Well, first

of

all, don't they believe infants are members?

How could they believe in everything in the three forms of unity?

I'm sorry about that.

Training them in

this way.

When we've had

members

come to, and if you have those things...

Amen.

So it has to be...

Well, that's basically what I was trying to explain about what I have seen in most

Reformed Baptist churches, and I can't speak for all of them because I am quite certain there are some that are much

stricter on confessional agreement than my experience has been, but a

lot of it would make perfect sense to be somewhat lenient to ordinary members because

if somebody has just come to faith in Christ, they would either be faking agreement

if they said they immediately are in full subscription to the 1689 Confession or whatever confession

the church adheres to, or they would be given a task to learn

and then agree with everything that could take.

Years, and

then

you...

Yeah,

you're

basically over.

Yeah,

right,

exactly.

Yeah,

so I

think...

Yeah, I can remember, I'm chuckling about it now, but I can remember when I first saw a

movie about the founders of the Restoration Movement, the

Church of Christ, and they had a depiction of Alexander Campbell

witnessing a Calvinistic Baptist pastor doing baptisms in a creek,

and when he approached the Baptist pastor to be baptized, the pastor said to him, before it

was even wet from the water, the pastor said to him, do you adhere to the

Philadelphia Confession of Faith?

And he said, I don't even know what that is.

Well, I can't baptize you.

Now, I wonder if these filmmakers entirely made that account up because I can't imagine

any preacher refusing baptism to somebody who

didn't completely understand and adhere to the confession of.

The Church.

That seems a bit strange.

You've got all kinds out there.

Well, I was going to say, one thing I tell my students at the seminary is, if it can't happen in the Church, it probably will.

Well, we're going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And by the way, Joe in Slovenia, thank you for providing an American address where your daughter lives in

Georgia, where we can ship out a copy of this book to you, By Good

and Necessary Consequence, Explorations in Reformed Confessional Theology, by our guest Ryan McGraw.

And that's Complements of Reformation Heritage Books.

And it's being shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for biblebookservice .com.

Thank you for that American address because it makes things a lot more affordable for our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book

Service to get that out to you.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio,

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study because everyone.

Needs a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Ryan McGraw, Professor

of Systematic Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina,

and we are discussing his book, By Good and Necessary Consequence, Explorations in Reformed Confessional

Theology.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Ryan, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please give us your first

name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and

I don't know how much of Baptist history you are aware of, Ryan, but our listener in

Greensboro, North Carolina, Seth, says, Most early American

Baptist churches were confessional.

Now it's safe to say most are not.

What do you believe brought about this change, and when did this begin to take place?

I know you're not a Baptist, so this may be out of your scope of knowledge.

This is Seth from Greensboro, North Carolina.

Would you be able to answer that in any way, shape, or form?

I'm coming

board today.

Wow, well, Seth, why don't you pay a visit there?

So that's...

Don't convert him, though.

Oh, well, actually, I don't even...

Seth might be asking this even if he's not a Baptist, I don't know, but anyway.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I know

that the

confessional

Baptists of the 17th century and

later wanted to express.

Commonality and unity with their Pato Baptist Presbyterian brethren, and they wanted to show that

except for some matters of church polity and the ordinances,

we have much in common with you.

They didn't want to be viewed as a cult, and they were very much in favor

of confessions, just that as one of the side issues, not as the only issue.

And from what I have learned, the Baptists that wanted to

have a greater chasm of separation between themselves and Protestantism were

typically not confessional.

They did not view themselves as a part of the Reformation or heirs of the Reformation, so

they were typically more into the

private interpretation of the local congregation and that kind of thing.

But I know that the next time we have Michael Haken on Seth, he is

specifically a Baptist historian, so either he or Tom Nettles, who's another Baptist

historian, I'm sure, would have a more thorough answer to that question.

But I would strongly urge you to go visit the OPC in Greensboro this Sunday

and hear our guest Ryan McGraw speak.

And what are you speaking on there?

I'm actually preaching on Isaiah 11 and 12.

Isaiah 11 and 12, and is it.

Just called the Greensboro Orthodox Presbyterian Church?

It's Providence Orthodox Presbyterian.

Church.

Okay, and well, perhaps before the end of the program, we can dig up some

contact information for them so we can let our listeners know about that, so they have more

details on how to get there.

But thank you, Seth, and thank you for being a regular listener to Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio.

And you are also receiving a free copy of By Good and Necessary Consequence, Explorations

in Reformed Confessional Theology, complements of Reformation Heritage Books, and

also a compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

cvbbs .com.

And if you could, let us know something about what took place

with the Westminster Assembly.

This has a lot to do with the foundation not only of your Confession of Faith, but also, as

you know, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, because the London Baptist

Confession of Faith, the second London Baptist Confession of Faith, is based largely on the

Westminster Confession.

It wasn't plagiarism, they were openly and honestly borrowing much from that confession, as

I said, to demonstrate unity with the Presbyterians, but they needed their own confession because of

differences on church polity in the ordinances.

But if you could, tell us about the Westminster Assembly.

Yeah, maybe in talking about Westminster,

and yet they,

including

a small

contingent

of

ministers in

the debates,

framing the one

advantage

of, you already

have that,

so more

care and

more

time

and

debate,

you had revision,

they

retained,

but then they

made some

modifications,

not only

at

points where

they disagreed, but even at some points to address new

issues for the

chapter on

the

Little

Son,

and of

unity.

Other

things,

my

opinion

is when

there

are

changes,

for example,

the

London

Baptist

deducing things by good and

necessary,

remember the exact language offhand, the

Baptist actually

trying to strengthen, not weaken

the statement,

and the two -nature in

the view of...

And we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says that the

Lutherans had adopted the Augsburg Confession very early on in the Reformation, but

what confession of faith did Calvin and Zwingli adhere to, since

the Westminster Confession didn't come about till a century or more after the Reformation began?

Well,

it's a

good question.

It

continued

to be used,

and

maybe

one thing

I

should

add

there,

because

you

notice for Ten

Commandments,

and when you get later

to

the content of

the Apocalypse...

Well, thank you, Ronald, and you are going to receive, free of charge,

by good and necessary consequence, Explorations in Reformed Confessional Theology by our guest,

Ryan McGraw, thanks to our friends at Reformation Heritage Books, and

also thanks to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, we'll be shipping that out to you,

cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for Bible Book Service dot

com.

And Ryan, I'm going to read a question for you, and then I'm going to have you answer it when you

return.

In fact, I'll even email you, I'll forward the email that I received from our listener

to you, so you have it right in front of you, and you can look it over during the the

commercial break as well.

But this is from, I believe, a very first -time listener, or at least a first -time

questioner.

We have Greg in Greenville, Tennessee, and Greg

asks, Ryan, can you give a brief history of how, if I've heard it right,

the dispensational viewpoint came via our Presbyterian brethren from the UK to the

U .S. originally, and what were the differences between that strain of Presbyterianism

to the more biblical and covenantal view of Reformed Baptist and PCA churches today?

If I'm off base, I got this misconception from hearing a Q &A from a Ligonier video a few years

back.

By the way, as God's providence would have it, I'm a Reformed Baptist who has joined a good PCA church in my area, and they

support the seminary there in Greenville, South Carolina.

I was not forced to hold to infant baptism to become a member, so that speaks to an earlier question your listener

had.

Thank you, and that's Greg in Greenville, Tennessee.

So I've already emailed that question to you, Ryan, and you can look it over to answer it when we come back.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if

you live outside of Greenville.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

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Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars.

Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples,

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Ninety miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington,

and easily accessible, scores of notable Christian groups frequently plan conferences at

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Call 609 -494 -5689, 609 -494 -5689.

Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

And I hope you all visit me at the Faithful Shepherd Retreat at Harvey Cedars

Bible Conference Center in Harvey Cedars, New Jersey.

This is taking place May 15th through the 17th, and the speakers

are Carl Truman, Todd Pruitt, John Nielsen, and Amy Bird.

If you'd like more information on the Faithful Shepherd Pastors Retreat, go to

alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on that, and click

on Events, and then click on the Faithful Shepherd Pastors

Retreat in Harvey Cedars, New Jersey, May 15th through the 17th.

That will give you all the information that you need.

Also, coming up shortly after that, Tuesday, May 30th through

Thursday, June 1st, I will be attending the 2017 U .S.

Ministers Conference sponsored by the Banner of Truth in Elizabethtown,

Pennsylvania at the Elizabethtown College.

And speakers at that event include Joel Beeke, and Jeff

Thomas, and William Vandeword, and Mark Johnston, and

Jonathan Master.

Jonathan Master will actually be my guest next Wednesday, the 10th of May.

Carlton Winn and Ian Hamilton.

And the theme of the conference is the Living and Enduring Word.

For more information on registering for that conference, go to banneroftruth .org,

banneroftruth .org, click on Events, and then click on 2017 U .S.

Ministers Conference.

Following that, I will be also attending, God willing, a sermon audios conference known as

the Foundations Conference in New York City.

And this is going to be an exciting event, I'm sure, featuring such guests as

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson.

Dr. Joel Beeke is also at this conference.

Phil Johnson, who is the Executive Director of John MacArthur's ministry.

Grace to you.

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio and more.

And for more details on this conference, go to thefoundationsconference .com,

thefoundationsconference .com.

That's being held June 22nd and June 23rd on

350 West 26th Street in Manhattan in the

Chelsea area of New York City.

That's 350 West 26th Street in Manhattan.

And that is, as I said, June 22nd and June 23rd,

thefoundationsconference .com.

Last but not least, August 3rd through the 5th, the Fellowship Conference New

England is being held at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine,

the stomping grounds of my co -host, Rev. Buzz Taylor.

And this is going to feature such speakers as Don

Curran, who is with HeartCry Missionary Society, which is

connected, I should say, with Paul Washer, and also Pastor

Mac Tomlinson, who has become a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio,

Pastor Jesse Barrington, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz.

They are all speaking on various themes.

There is not one solitary theme or singular theme for this conference.

And for more details on registering for the Fellowship Conference New England, go to

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland

.com.

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If indeed you are blessed by this program and enjoy it, I would be grateful for any help

that you can give.

And now we are returning to our discussion on By Good and Necessary Consequence

Explorations in Reformed Confessional Theology with our guest Ryan McGraw, professor of systematic

theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

And before the break, Ryan, as you know, I read

a question to you and I'll read it again for the sake of our listeners, especially those who tuned in late.

Greg in Greenville, Tennessee says, can you give a brief history of how the

dispensational viewpoint came via our Presbyterian brethren from the UK to the U

.S. originally, and what were the differences between that strain of Presbyterianism

to the more biblical and covenantal view of Reformed Baptist and PCA churches today?

And by the way, as God's providence would have it, I'm a Reformed Baptist who has joined a good PCA church in my area,

and they support the seminary there in Greenville, South Carolina.

I was not forced to hold to infant baptism to become a member, so that speaks to an earlier question your

listener had.

So that's Greg in Greenville, Tennessee.

All right.

...differences, however, in

terms of

covenant theologism, and

it's old

and

usually...

Well, thank you very much, Greg.

And guess what?

Since you are a first -time either listener or at least questioner

to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, you are not only going to be receiving a free copy of By Good and

Necessary Consequence, Explorations in Reformed Confessional Theology by our guest Ryan McGraw,

published by Reformation Heritage Books, you're also getting a brand -new free copy of the New

American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, excuse me,

NASB, and we hope that you enjoy both, and I hope that you keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio,

keep submitting questions to us, and spread the word about the program in Greenville, Tennessee

and beyond, and above all, please keep praying for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thank you very much, Greg, and thanks for the very insightful, excellent question.

Interestingly enough, we have a related question in some ways

from our friend R .J. in White Plains, New York.

He says, I have heard that Donald Gray Barnhouse was both

Presbyterian and Dispensationalist.

Is this true?

Well, thank you, R .J., you're also getting a free copy of the book we have been discussing, By Good and Necessary

Consequence, by our guest Ryan McGraw, so keep your eye open in the mail for that.

We have a question from Bruce in Center Reach, New York.

Is it possible to find a reformed or proto -reformed confession of

faith or catechism in church history prior to the 16th century?

I'm assuming he means a good one, because obviously there were confessions of faith in the church

before the Reformation, but if you could, answer, Bruce, to the best of your knowledge.

Yeah,

in thought.

Like did John Huss write anything that could be considered a creed or anything like that?

Yeah.

I said John Huss.

Oh, John Huss, I'm sorry.

That's all right.

Yeah,

you

may

not

find

any.

Then

we're not

just

simultaneously,

they

drew

material

also,

rather.

And wouldn't you say that those earlier confessions or creedal statements

were inadequate when it came to specifically the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Yeah,

and

I

think,

you

know,

we

could

find

John

Chrysostom.

Yeah, I can't understand how Luther could have had as

one of his watchwords of the Reformation, one of his pillars, one of his battle cries,

sola fide, and yet simultaneously believe.

In baptismal regeneration.

By the

way, thank you, Bruce.

You've won our final copy.

Of By Good and Necessary Consequence, Explorations in Reformed Confessional Theology.

Thank you very much for submitting that question, and please keep spreading word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio

in Center Reach, New York and beyond.

We look forward to hearing from you again with a question for our guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm going to go to a break right now, and before I go to the break, I want you to think about

the importance of the church and why it seems that in

modern church history that the church has become

such an unessential, unimportant matter.

Membership in a church has become something on the lowest rung of importance for those

professing faith in Christ.

It seems to me to be an over

-exaggerated response to the

heretical understanding of the church that the Church of Rome has always taught,

since Trent anyway, that the church is actually

essential and required for salvation, and that the church dispenses

the grace for salvation, and without the Church of Rome you cannot have salvation.

And there seems to be an overreaction to that, where you have Protestants, or professing

Christians anyway, expressing the idea that we don't really need to be members of a

church at all.

I can have my own private friendship and relationship with Christ, and I can

pray to Him in the woods, and I can pray to Him while I'm riding my bicycle.

I can pray to Him while I'm on lunch break at work, and I have my own private communion with Him.

I don't need anything else.

So you have this exaggerated response to the

Church of Rome's errors, it seems.

But we'll have you discuss that when we return from our final break.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we will be right back after these messages.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnsen, if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the full two hours has been and will continue to be Ryan McGraw,

professor of systematic theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

We are discussing, by good and necessary consequence, explorations in Reformed

confessional theology.

If you'd like to join us on the air, now is the time to do so because we're running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And if you could, Ryan, pick up where we left off.

I was mentioning to you why is the church so important and

why is this a dangerous thing when the importance of church membership and the submission to local

elders, why it is so dangerous that this is deteriorating in our

modern society, where this is becoming such an unimportant thing in the

lowest rung on the ladder of importance.

On the one

hand,

the church

explores this.

I think

when we

deal with

questions like,

again, people have why

they

think it's good enough for me,

camping over here,

thinking that the church

age was

since four, which in the

interview gave

us

Ephesians,

but

how

many

of

you,

because

that's

how

many...

You know, again, with church membership,

isn't it

the

same?

You can't

identify...

Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question or comment.

Well, it was just a comment.

I was giving a thumbs up all the way through, although you couldn't see my thumb, I'm sure.

But I want to thank you for sharing what you just shared, and I trust there were many

listeners who needed to hear what you.

Just shared in the last five minutes.

Well, Buzz, why don't you, in a summary form, go through your own experience in

regard to confessions, because you have not only been a Christian in varying

theological camps and churches and denominations, but you've been a pastor of

a non -confessional, independent, fundamentalist Baptist church, and you've been a pastor in a

charismatic church, in a Church of God, Findlay, Ohio congregation, and a Presbyterian church.

So tell us about how you grew to appreciate confessions.

Did you ever specifically have enough awareness of their existence to disdain them before you came

to embrace them?

Well, what's interesting, actually, is that just the way you listed the churches that I've

pastored, you can see the progression of my theology.

And, of course, the last one you mentioned was that I did pastor a Reformed Presbyterian church, and I

have been a Reformed Presbyterian now longer than I've ever been anything else.

And it doesn't look like I'm going to be budging from that, but it was largely because of the fact that I knew nothing about

Reformed theology or confessions or anything before that.

It was just me and Jesus pastoring a church.

Those things just never occurred to me.

And I knew something was wrong, and I knew that it was hard for identifying what we were as Christians

and so forth.

And when I finally discovered the confessions, it's like, wow, this is tremendous, tremendous stuff.

And it is unifying.

And what you were saying about the church is so important, because people don't

think that they have to be part of, you know, Jesus died for a body.

We're saved into a kingdom.

We're saved into a building.

We're saved into, you know, a temple, a kingdom, a holy nation.

And we see all these things in the scriptures.

And I never knew about those things before.

I was starting to come into these things.

I was reading the Baptist Confession of 1689 while I was in an Assembly of God church, if that tells you anything.

Well, Ryan, as you know, there have been churches throughout history,

denominations, or fellowships of churches that began

faithfully and began biblically orthodox, biblically sound,

who adhered to a confession.

But then as years, decades, perhaps a century or so passed by,

the confession became nothing more than a piece of artwork on the

wall and lip service was given to it.

And the actual belief system laid out in those confessions

began to, in one way or another, be absent from those groups.

And for instance, one classic example that you as a Presbyterian are obviously aware of

is the Presbyterian Church USA.

Although we have some friends who are faithful to biblical truth in that

denomination, you have other congregations that are utterly apostate in that denomination.

But if you could talk about, perhaps warn even the

listeners about the peril that awaits them when they abandon

these solid biblical confessions that have stood.

The test

of time.

Well, I think

on the

Baptist Confession,

and he

promised an

unintended

error,

we

don't

realize

in

confessions

and

you're

elevating

the

one

thing

to

read

the

Bible,

the

catechism,

maybe

just

to

quote,

we lose

something.

Now,

how

do you

respond

to

the Roman.

Catholic who may have heard what you said earlier about how terrible

it becomes when ministers have attempted to explain the two natures of

Christ or the two wills of Christ without using the confessions?

They'll say, aha, there goes your sola scriptura for you, out the window.

How do you respond to a charge like that?

Because in fact, something very similar came up during a debate I just recently orchestrated between

Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary and Robert St. Genes of Catholic Apologetics

International on the immaculate conception of Mary.

And the Catholic participant was trying to steer

the debate away from the immaculate conception of Mary and toward sola scriptura,

because he believed that is the Protestant's Achilles heel.

Because he believes, as many Catholic apologists do, that we have an inability to adequately defend

that dogma of the Reformation above all else.

But anyway,.

If

you

could

comment

on

that.

Yeah,

it

really

depends

on the

test

with

a

combination

of

it.

In

fact, he

commands

that

we're not,

we're not to

forsake the assembly of the brethren,.

We're to submit to elders, we're not to lay hands on a teacher

too quickly, you know, we're supposed to be very careful as

to who we as a church appoint as teachers, so the very

scriptures that we believe are inerrant have specific teachings in them that.

We're to follow as well.

Yeah.

Right, as

the

scriptures themselves command we have.

Yes.

And we're out of time.

I want to make sure that our listeners have your different websites.

First of all, the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary is GPTS .edu,

GP for Greenville Presbyterian, TS for Theological Seminary .edu.

I also found the website for Providence Presbyterian Church in Greensboro, North Carolina,

that is providenceegso .org, that's

providencegso .org, I think I added a

letter there accidentally, providencegso, G for George, S for Sam, O for

October .org.

And Ryan will be there this Sunday,.

And do you have the times that you're going to be there?

10 a .m. and 5 .30 p .m., I'm sure.

10 a .m. and 5 .30 p .m. for our listeners in the Greenboro, North Carolina area.

Their phone number, if you'd like to call,

is 336 -553 -9991, 336 -553 -9991.

And again, providencegso .org,

providencegso .org.

They're on 4600 Lake Brant Road in Greensboro, North Carolina, that's Lake Brant, B -R -A

-N -D -T Road, Greensboro, North Carolina.

You can get any book written by our guest Ryan McGraw from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

that's cvbbs .com, C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for biblebookservice

.com.

And we thank Reformation Heritage Publishers, Reformation Heritage Books, for

providing us with the books that we gave away today.

Thank you so much, Ryan, and we look forward to having.

You back on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thank you, brother, it's good to be with you.

And I want.

Everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.