Apologetics, Family, and Culture

Moose and I'm Lenny and we are on apologetic Okay, so Welcome everybody.

Thank you for coming in and just listening to us and just supporting us and everything.

We have a very Just special episode for everybody a special guest with us and that is dr.

James white Well, this is your first time in first time in Zambia. Yeah.

Yeah, I've been going to South Africa Pretty regularly since about 2011 2012 somewhere in there.

Okay. Okay. We actually met in South Africa. Oh One of the baits. Yeah. Yeah the one that when you had a

UJ. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah that one Well, I've had I've had a couple of UJ Yeah, was it the one with two people versus two people or the one in the one guy?

It was the one guy was the one guy. Yeah, because they burned the building down That we had the two -on -two debate within two weeks.

They burned the building really serious Yeah Yeah, so I'm actually tempted to get into that, right

Yeah, so we wanted to just start with maybe an intro of who you are a Little bit of what you do and how you got into it and how you got saved

Well, I'm a nobody. I'll just be straight up front with you, but I've had some cool opportunities to do things

Raising a Christian family converted extremely young age In fact, I'll be awesome.

I'm probably the youngest person. I know of that. I would think has a credible testimony of conversion

I was very I was weird as a young child. I have memories all the way back to a two years of age most people don't remember things that quite that far back, but I remember the day that That I accepted

Lord as my Savior and I believe he's been very faithful to me since then Grew up in school as sort of a little evangelist

Got sent to the principal in fourth grade for passing out tracks on the playground and so I marched into the principal's office and handed him one and So I sort of had that as a background.

I wasn't always On fire like that There were a few years in there in your teen and teen years that you can sort of Wander away and look very much like the world, but the

Lord kept me from screwing my life up in the process So make a long story short.

I I was raised, you know in a Christian family and I was class valedictorian

So I was a good student but then Shortly after got married and I got married at 19

My wife was 18 and that's unusual these days at least in the United States but I think it's awesome because I had a grandchild by 50 and So I'll probably see my great -grandchildren, which would be a really awesome privilege.

But anyway Shortly after my marriage. I married an identical twin and two more missionaries showed up at my

In -laws home saw her. She's really cute. They're identical twins. So I can say my wife's identical twin is cute and it's not a problem and So she asked me to come over to talk to these two missionaries elders

Reed and Reese I still remember him after all these years and we met on a Monday and a Thursday In between time

I read two or three books on Mormonism Because obviously after the first two or three hour conversation,

I was like a lot. I don't know there and A lot of things came from that Somehow no one taught me this

I got a conviction that if I'm going to talk about Anybody Mormons wherever else it might be.

I need to learn from original sources I need to I started going to the LDS bookstore.

I started as I was reading Christian books on us on Mormonism I'd see references.

So I'd make a list. I was poor as a church mouse at this point time I was a college student didn't have had a little job that paid almost nothing.

Yeah, so it you know, my dear wife What a what a saint she is that she lived the poor life so I could build up my

Mormonism library which at the time how could we know that that would lead to what's happened eventually, but I'd go in there and I'd buy these books and I kept seeing references to the

Journal of Discourses Journal of Discourses I think I need to get the Journal of Discourses So I'm riding a motorcycle

After class in college and I go into the LDS bookstores and do you have the Journal of Discourses?

Well, we do nice little lady named Mary nice little Mormon lady named Mary and she says right right up there and I look up there

It's 28 volumes plus an index and a slip Now it was this was 1980s, so it was 69 95 that's like a week's worth of my income

And I'm I'm I'm newly married I'm on a motorcycle you put it all together and you know,

I left with it and and so I had to write a check and this was the first test

I had I write the check out and I get out my my bank card with the check and She says

I don't need that. I just need your ward number Hmm What do

I do now do I make one up number 72 And so I decided to be honest and said

I don't have a word number I'm not a Mormon Oh, she says well you keep reading this books and you will be and so she took my bank card

And the funny thing is that thing went out of print shortly after that and for years

Dealing with Mormonism a pretty high level that was a go -to resource and if I hadn't gotten it then we would have been at a lot so That's sort of how things started

We met in I think July of 1982 and by October of 1983

Alphanumeric Ministries was founded I started teaching a class on Mormonism a large Southern Baptist Church at the time and Four of us

Two photocopied tracks a few books and we started a little ministry called Alphanumeric Ministries and that was almost well, 35 years ago this year and We haven't

Mormonism is not our main focus any longer, but we certainly had it as our main focus for a long period of time

So that's sort of how how things got started. But since then, you know, I can I continue my education

I went into seminary. I got my master's degree Started teaching church history Just had some all sorts of awesome opportunities to learn

Greek and to then start teaching Greek and and We've always tried to keep it focused,

I mean you can't be an expert on everything. Yeah you and and so The areas did start expanding people started asking questions about Jehovah's Witnesses.

So I started building Jehovah's Witness library and then I Was dragged into dealing with Roman Catholicism because that's extremely unpopular and For a long time that was pretty much all there was and then you know atheism starts coming in and you know

I graduated seminary a fair amount about this textual criticism thing about the background of New Testament So you're dealing with atheists that are making those type of attacks

I got involved with King James only ism and and responding to that stuff and then in 2006

Came Islam and I was asked to do a debate and I'm like, you know,

I've got plenty to keep me busy This is this is enough But they gave me the name of the guy and I downloaded some debates.

He was doing I started listening to him His name was Shabir Ali. It's now dr. Shabir Ali and Shabir reads

Christian liberals and he uses them against Christians now Christian apologists

Don't tend to read Christian liberals But you see I was so poor that once I graduated from Bible College The only seminary in Phoenix that time was

Fuller Theological Seminary now Fuller Today is way off to the left of where I am I could not go to I could not recommend anybody going to Fuller or me go to Fuller today couldn't do it

But back then they had an extension campus in Phoenix and most their professors they drew from the

Bible College I had just graduated from so I'm like Okay, you know this is gonna for example, I had the same

Greek professor for seven years four years in college three years in seminary and so We Once I start listening to Shabir Ali I'm like he's using all the stuff that I had to deal with back when

I was in seminary and I wondered when I was At Fuller. Why am I having to read this stuff? Why am I having to read these liberals?

Why can't they go to a seminary that believes like me and so I can really you know get excited and stuff In hindsight now,

I know why it was because it has given me such an advantage over other apologists because I know where that whole mindsets coming from yeah, and So I accepted the debate with Shabir and I it was years in my dealing with Islam before I ever

Did a debate that was critical of Islam specifically for the first number of years I simply defended the

Christian faith against Islamic claims Because I did not feel like I knew it's long well enough to really address it in a fair fashion and so we did a huge debate at Biola University in Los Angeles, it was like 2 ,500 -3 ,000 people there and One of the professors at Biola that deals with Islam had tried to get the debate canceled

Because he didn't know who I was and so he figured some dumb Baptist is gonna come in here He knew who

Shabir Ali was and he was gonna have to clean up the mess Afterwards. Well, he attended we managed to get through it as far as having the debate take place halfway through He comes up and shakes my hand says we need to get to know each other because he was in charge of a group that was training people and dealing with Islam and he was just really impressed the way

I was presuppositionally handling the stuff that Shabir Ali was saying and so that started the the

Islamic work I never Dreamed it would take me to Africa I mean

Travel and things like that just my family just never did that kind of thing But when the opportunity started in South Africa where there's so much so much

Ahmed D dot was down there and so there's a tremendous amount of Muslim apologetics. It's done down there and Just started falling in love with all the people that would meet people travel from all over to come to the debates and things like So I've been doing that for years now

I've gotten involved at Northwest University in Potter's room and doing a PhD there in textual criticism and gotten to know the churches and stuff like that, but I had this friend named

Vodie Balcombe and Vodie had talked to me years ago when I we were at some conference together and I told him yeah, you know

I've been going to South Africa all the time. He says well, you've got to come up to Zambia You've you know, if you're that close, you've got to come up Zambia and if you know

Vodie, it's just sort of like just do it He's not big on the details part, you know, just just just get it done.

That's like so tried last year didn't work out up here and So well, here

I am You're most welcome. Yeah. Thank you for that. Thank you so much Yeah, um, let's talk a bit about your family yeah, cuz

I guess like we do get to hear a lot about what you do and your theology and your apologetics

But I noticed in your Twitter description you describe yourself as a husband and as a father

So tell us a bit about your family you know, I I'll be general, but my wife works for a major corporation we're talking about the issues

I talk about for example, I Address marriage sexuality

The LGBTQ issues in the United States I talk about all the easy

So, you know, I don't drag her into the limelight just simply not to complicate her life and She works hard.

She works full -time. That's where our medical insurance comes from is from her so She's a wonderful mother we're empty nesters now the kids are our adults and My my son is a son somebody you don't want to mess with He is a full -time black belt

Krav Maga instructor I'm not sure if you know what Krav Maga is, but it's Israeli martial arts and it's ripped someone's head off type

MMA So that's what but he also for example, he's really

Thankful when he gets opportunity to teach rape prevention classes and stuff like that so he likes helping people things like that, but it's been fascinating to see him just get buff and And and I still mean

I don't want to scare him Because I want my fingers where they are and things like that. So so that's what he does

My daughter summer is fairly well known She has her own webcast called sheologians and I didn't know that was your daughter.

That's my daughter. Oh my goodness. That's really awesome And so she takes on look

I've learned from summer about intersectionality and third -wave feminism I knew none of those things until summer started doing her thing on that and then

I'm like, oh, okay That's interesting. So yeah summer Josh and his mom are very much alike personality -wise

Summer and I are very much alike personality -wise. And so she's me in the female body, which is a scary combination and so It has been fascinating to watch her development.

She's an awesome writer. I really want to see her start getting her books out because she can write like like anything and so Yeah, and she has four kids and Cadence Wayland Clementine in January and so My phone may come out come out here and FaceTime and and a little little smiling

January might be going Ah, I mean, you know or Clementine going punko So yeah, and my dad's still alive he's in his mid -80s and Lives back in the

United States as well. And so they don't they don't get to do much traveling yet Yeah, I would love to get summer to London because I think she'd just probably end up moving there.

Um, it's awesome But and the wife doesn't get to go with me very often You know though she did go when we went to Germany last year for the

Reformation thing And I don't know if you saw my bucket list experience last year, but where I got to preach in the castle church

Yeah, I followed that quite a bit Awesome Don't even know how to describe it don't even know how to describe it.

That's great. So yeah Actually just speaking about family. I'm just one of that. So you followed that but you didn't know summer was my dog

That's so crazy. It's actually really crazy because I was actually Interesting. It's gonna feed into my next question.

My fiancee was just telling me just now that she was listening to a podcast I'm someone's podcast.

So that's awesome I'll be glad to hear that. All right, I shout out to summer

You talked about getting married when you were 19 years old and your wife was 18 years old

And Josh wasn't born for four years That's awesome

But you refer to the fact that you do see a trend where people seem to be getting married much later in life

That's gonna be something that we see here as well If I get the moment, I just refer to my fiance.

My fiance is actually a student at the African Christian University she is Turning 21.

We're supposed to be married. Hey 150 days from today, actually Yeah But what we've done is has seemed quite countercultural for the most part

And that's I guess come under a lot of scrutiny but one of the our motivations for doing this is our faith, you know, we see what marriage is in the

Bible and We want to be a part of that, you know For sure. What are your thoughts on the trends that we see in the world today regarding marriage?

Well aside from the profaning of marriage in Western culture there is no way of defining marriage outside of a husband and a wife and those words have meanings and Every time

I hear some man talking about his husband. I just I just cringe it is just such a fundamental violation of how we were made and and it's such a cheapening of those words that it just It crushes me and and the people involved with it as well.

It feels terrible for them, but I Think the reason you see this This trend is is completely materialistic.

It is you're not looking toward the future. You don't feel like you have any Responsibility to your culture to your nation for the next generation it's you and your investments in your house and your money and That's why so many, you know in Western culture what you have happening is people getting married and then basically living for their pets and They just have pets their entire lives and then they die and that's it.

And I just saw this morning. I just happened to see a news thing on my feed very briefly

They didn't have much time to look at it, but u .s. Birth rates lowest in 30 years.

Well below replacement level yeah, and that's the same in Russia and Europe and so on so forth and part of it is the overpopulation lie part of it is

Simply total selfishness. You don't view the modern modern people and it's not

It's it's definitely countercultural down here where you do have a cultural idea of connection to ancestors

Modi was filling me in on some of the marriage stuff and stuff like that. And I said, oh, yeah But even in my own culture you had you know

You you were proud of who your great -grandfather was your great -great -grandfather was there was a connection to the past Which created the desire for a connection in the future as well.

You actually thought about your culture's welfare in the future Nobody thinks about that. I'm sorry. It's it's it's me myself and I that's why marriages break up because hey

If I can be happier with somebody else then let's just switch things out here the idea of a covenant lifelong character all these things

The secular worldview has no way to ground these things it can talk about How much happier we would be if we did these things, but it can't provide any meaningful basis

That's gonna actually help you in the in the difficult times And so I just think what we're seeing is just a massive love of stuff

I'm much more concerned about having my stuff and having my my cable

TV and my internet and Then you know take care of me from the cradle to the grave

I don't care if my life really actually accomplishes anything or not as long as I'm just happy and Relatively healthy and then that's it

And so, you know the result is you don't have you know My parents were married for over 50 years before my mom died and I remember taking them out for their 50th wedding anniversary and I Rented a stretch limo to take us to this one of those restaurants

It's up on the top of a building that goes, you know, the restaurant spins around So you see the whole the whole not very fast, obviously at a restaurant.

That'd be a sort of bad thing But in the course of an hour, you know, and I go around once just something like that and You know, that was my mom's first time in a limo.

She had never And so that's a great memory to have that you you took your parents out for their 50th wedding anniversary

You know how few people in my culture today? Will ever have a 50th wedding anniversary

Even when summer was After her freshman year in high school at a

Christian high school We were driving home. I think anyways, we're driving home

She said I want to go to Cortez Cortez is the public high school. We're like why this is because I prefer my pagan straight -up

Her point was she says I I don't know more than two Christians in my Christian high school

And so I would prefer to have the pagans be pagans than the pagans be

Christian pagans and So, you know back then it was still doable even though she you know, she had some very formative struggles there that Made her who she is.

I think she'd recognize that a a line has been crossed now in the u .s. That would that would change all of that, but the point was you had that kind of Of a mindset and we just don't we just don't see that much anymore

And my kids will tell you that we used to drive around in our old beat -up cars Which had frequently been given to us by somebody to help the ministry

And I bought these little whiteboards for them and we would do Christian worldview stuff while they're in the back seat

I'm driving and they've got the little markers and we're doing Christian worldview stuff. So that's some of their favorite memories from back then

But you know, I'm just glad I got to do that when I was young enough to to do so and so that was I Was looking forward in that way.

I've been taught. Hey you turn 18 Buddy, you better be ready to take care of yourself. And now you've got people staying at home till they're 30

Playing video games in their parents basement. That's that's that's not good. That's not good.

Right? All right. So speaking of this sort of Let's call it a shift in Foundation of morals, let's talk a bit about culture first of all, what do you think has caused a kind of Kind of radical shift that we are that that we've been experiencing for the last say hundred years as far as people's morals people's acceptance of responsibility and All this well you see

I would think that that would have a different answer here than it would in the United States, I mean

There there's a lot of Fascinating differences between our cultures and yet a lot of similarities, too

Because if I sat down with guys your age in a seminary in the United States, we'd be having a very very similar

Conversation. So here we are in Zambia We're having the same conversation. So there's obviously a lot of things that tie us together

But at the same time there's a there's a lot of things There's there's far more in in your cultural experience than there is in the

United States And that's not even that's even different depending on where you are in the States, you know down south

It's different than north and where I live. There's Nobody knows any of their neighbors because everybody's from someplace else so you don't have that kind of community

I think but overall in general in Western civilization You know, the big question is chicken or the egg.

Is this What brings the judgment of God or is it the judgment of God?

So I sort of have to look back at all the blessings that God poured out upon my nation in From basically, you know 1900 until 1960 or so.

I mean for example World War two The Allies could have lost that war very easily many times many times

Germany was so close to Massive weapons of destruction and if we hadn't gotten

The bomb if they had gotten the bomb believe you me they would have been London would have been gone in no time and so, you know you look at that and That that war the men that came home from that war were really changed the ferocity of it the the violence of it the

It absolutely changed people and you look at the UK And you look at the United States in the decade and a half after that and there's a radical change.

There's a radical change I think Some studies could probably be very profitably done on that particular subject

But yeah, so you get in the 60s and it's the new drugs turn out to tune on to now whatever

Those people are now in charge in my country and it's been disastrous as a result But where where's where's the tipping point what what brings the judgment of God and what is the judgment?

Yeah, I mean we are we are Mutilating the bodies of seven year olds

Who think that be that there are they are a boy, but they think they're a girl We're actually willing to mutilate their bodies with chemicals and everything else.

It's insanity. It is Absolute insanity no one with common sense does this type of thing, but we we applaud it

Or in my country, we have Bruce Jenner who won gold medals in the 1978

Olympics something like that And now he's a grandfather Pretending to be a woman who's going to marry another guy who has gone through hormone treatment who's 21 and he's 67 and It's like oh

Isn't this wonderful Cupid arrow? And I just want to sit back and go.

Okay, that's not what brings the judgment of God That has to be the judgment of God that okay. We've passed the tipping point there.

You can't yeah, the the level of insanity is so off the scale that must be

The term is paradiddle me Predicate they were given over Romans chapter 1 they were given over that's being given over.

Yeah, I can't describe it in any other way than being given over So somewhere along the line all those blessings all that prosperity, especially in the 1950s in the

US We just kept turning away turning away turning away with Roe v.

Wade we've murdered hundreds of millions of babies We it's

Now it's pretty clear to me that it is the judgment of God that is is bringing this about and If we look at the paradigm of Israel her repentance was always after some pretty serious judgment and but I didn't see the problem is

We live in a world that is so interconnected and so dangerous man is kind has never possessed those weapons of mass destruction that we do today and I'll tell you something, you know,

I think about the young man like you about to get married and I go You're gonna be you and your children you'll be facing an incredible world and then

I'm a grandfather So I look at my kids my grandkids And at first the question is did

I give my children a sufficient foundation basis to survive this world?

and of course, I have to trust the Lord with that, but Then you had grandkids and then it's like yeah, oh man, you really start looking down the road

It's really there are a couple times in life when you when there's a huge maturity jump First ones when you get a job the next one's when you get married

But you can be a young married couple and still act like kids and just have fun in the process

It's when you've got an entire Completely selfish human being dependent upon you that thinks the entire world revolves around it

That that little thing starts sucking the Selfishness right out of you.

It's it's great how God designed that but that's the next thing and then It's seeing your kids get married and then becoming a grandparent.

Oh my goodness There's there's almost no way to even describe Yeah But anyway in answer to your question now right now,

I think the rapidity of what we're seeing is The withdrawal of that hand of restraint.

It's like you want to see what's gonna happen when you create a world based upon pure Self -satisfaction.

There you go. It's gonna happen fast Gonna happen fast and the problem is because the

United States is what the United States is economically and militarily When we fall we take a lot of people in this we take a lot of people with us and there is no way

That my nation can remain a leader in As a counterbalance to some rather evil forces are out there that want to extend their control over all of the earth

We cannot remain in that status with the cultural condition that we're in right now

A nation's military prowess and ability is directly related to its morality and ethics ethics.

There is a delay You know, it doesn't happen the same day. Yeah, but it's dangerous

All right, so now one of the big reasons like why we started this podcast is there's a bunch of issues that I think are

Especially in our context in our sort of conservative context in Africa That a lot of people are not addressing and they're coming in like a fire

And so in speaking to some of these, you know, sort of even LGBT and feminism and all these things

We sort of tend to think that the church is closing its eyes just to how fast this is becoming

Sort of being a foothold in the country. Yeah But how much of this in your context has entered the church so to speak

The the willingness Many I've said for a couple years now we were going to see a literal tsunami of capitulation on the

LGBTQ issues because all of these things are a measure of How influenced a particular individual

Christian leader or church or denomination is in comparison to their commitment to the overriding authority of the

Word of God and so if you adopt There's a guy in the

United States right now by name Andy Stanley his father Charles Stanley was a well -known

Southern Baptist. I think maybe even been president of the best convention at some point megachurch type guy and Andy's sort of gone off on his own and you just watching the trajectory as he's going off farther and farther and farther and it all comes back to the view of Scripture and It's it's perspicuity.

It's accuracy You know, he's adopted this new argument that the only thing it's important to prove is the resurrection

Because of the resurrection is true and Christianity is true and you don't have to worry about Virgin birth you don't have to worry about Anything in the

Old Testament. All you got to worry about is is the resurrection and it's just like yeah, that sounds great

There's one problem What does the resurrection mean? Why is it relevant to me? What must I do about the resurrected?

What must I what must I believe about the one who was resurrected? Why did he die in the first place? Yeah, those are all questions

They're only gonna be answered by scripture and once you start saying we don't have to worry about all this stuff You end up with such a minimized view that it's not even it's not even relevant anymore.

So In that it's interesting that there's a parallel to that in my understanding that that particular church megachurch multi -campus megachurch

Very clearly is shifting on the LGBT stuff because once that view of Scripture becomes weakened then

All the issues concerning marriage sexuality the roles of man and woman they all instead of having a a

Lens that is the consistency and authority of scripture by which to interpret those things You're gonna have to replace that lens with something else and it's always going to be the lens of culture

Yeah, and culture is gonna offer you all sorts of different kinds of lenses So you don't have to immediately jump into hanging rainbow flags in your sanctuary

Yeah, you can take the small lens first and then you know We bring some people in but they want a little thicker lens and and it's it's an inevitable process.

Oh, yeah over time And so yeah that particular movement

I think biblically is again according to Romans chapter 1 is a symptom of Judgment.

It's being given over. Yeah, it is an illustration Paul uses in Romans 1 26 and 27

He uses homosexuality as an example of how The very internal essence of man can be fundamentally twisted by sin.

Yes That sin touches all of man. Yes, and that's the illustration that he uses

It's a Roman Catholic phrase, but they've used a phrase a disordered desire. That's a good that's a good phrase It really is a good phrase.

It's it's a biblical phrase. I Would also argue the current Pope doesn't believe it Yeah, which is another issue for another?

the next time So Okay, we're almost out of time.

Yeah Time but maybe you can tell us just different ways we can be praying for you

One is your podcast post we don't know yet Because you know,

I mean I'm here in Zambia for you know, another day and a half and then Two days in Joburg and then

I fly to the Midlands Okay, I teach Morning noon and night.

I go to Glasgow and teach I go to Belfast Belfast, Northern Ireland teach and debate.

Yeah, I go home. I have a few days home drive to Southern, California I teach for a week the Master's Seminary and Then I'm off to Dallas and I'm home two weeks and I'm gone for another three weeks

After that, so two and a half months. I'm home two and a half weeks. So I just have to stay healthy during all of that Did you get a cycle much when you when you're traveling?

No, I don't and that's one of the problems is But at least the trip

I'm doing in July. It's mainly about cycling. Okay, so I will be doing huge miles at that point

Lord willing Riding during the day and teaching at night, which is sort of cool, but I need to get this this doctorate done

It's important stuff It's I'm really passionate about it and so much of this other stuff that I keep getting distracted by Is making the process just that much more more difficult.

I really think But if I once I finish this PhD the information that I will derive from that Is going to be so useful in doing some other stuff that will have impacts on atheism

Islam all sorts of stuff So I got to get it done. Got to get finished. So that's the biggest thing.

That's basically great in closing I was just gonna ask one more question. Just What do you think our biggest need is?

As Africans and especially as African apologists you guys got to start developing

Your own native -born votive outcomes The there's there's got to be it's got to be your voice doing the

Doing that, you know, this is the case everywhere in the United States as well But we this is this has got to be done.

It's got to be done. It's got to be a African voice speaking these things and demonstrating it.

Yes, you know what? we are not only capable of doing this, but we do it well and we need to Be defending the faith in a way that is honoring to Christ here in our own country and not not looking to others

But raising up our own generation. I think that's that's what you're doing here Thank you so much for joining us this has been this has been amazing

I'm sure So many of us have been have learned so much from this if you've got any questions

Please do just leave leave comments on our Twitter handles that you're gonna see you right at the bottom of this video We appreciate you tuning in and thank you once again