What to do with Christian Leaders Who Soft-Peddled Social Justice

Conversations That Matter

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Hey everyone, we're live now on the conversations that matter podcast. I hope you're all having a good evening

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It is a cold evening here in upstate, New York. I was just outside and I'm glad I'm inside now

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We have a number of things to talk about. I debated this morning because I knew I was gonna do a podcast today what exactly

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I would talk about because there was a couple different things but uh, I thought about talking about some general news and decided against it because There's there's so much stuff in evangelicalism right now in Christianity That I think needs to be talked about and of course my day started with And if you've probably already seen it, but the clip from Alistair Begg so I'm gonna incorporate that at the beginning of this podcast, but then we're gonna talk about some other figures and Release some things that I've been putting off just because of the holidays and then travel and But I want to talk about this issue because I do get the questions and it is something

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I think about What do you do with people who especially leaders? Who went along with the

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CRT narrative the BLM narrative perhaps the kovat narratives? they

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To be honest with you. They've let wolves in at times or at least destructive ideas into their churches and now

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It's a few years later and the political winds have changed in their church and It's more convenient depending on where you are to When I shouldn't even say convenient, but it's it's more acceptable to critique those things because now we're on the other side of them

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And we know that things got too out of hand What do you do with people that oppose ideas that they once held without acknowledging it without?

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Repenting without telling you that they are doing that and and of course, we've talked about this quite a bit

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I've used al moeller as an example multiple times because he switches positions A lot and people who like him want to defend him and say that he's he doesn't do that no, he's consistent, but if you're careful and you listen to what he says over the course of years as Political wind shifts he will shift on things like repair to therapy or whether same -sex attraction exists

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I mean he repented of it in 2014 and then in what 2021 or so he's Saying that that was you know, one of the problems that the church trip people in the church adopted that view

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What was the view that he held right? the CRT stuff I mean he's He's really pushed the main many of the main tenants of critical race theory and of course hired people who have taught the main tenants of critical race theory and Then he'll critique it.

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And so he's just one figure. We've talked about a number of figures who do this kind of thing and Of course,

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I look for repentance, right? I think we should all look for that We look for we all make mistakes and we all sin. And so What happens when you do that?

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Well, you acknowledge it you you don't Pretend like it never happens, right?

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That's that's really the main thing But I think we're gonna see more and more of this.

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I don't know to what extent I don't know how big it's gonna become but as we get closer to the election and things heat up a lot of things could happen and I'm just thinking especially if we have

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Democrats running things and it doesn't even have to be Democrats could be Republicans at this point But we have the people who are running things now running things then in the next four years

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Then the pendulum is gonna be pushed really hard left and you're gonna see somewhat of reaction against it amongst some quarters of the church and People who were touting the ideas that have led to the problems we have are gonna be now criticizing some of those ideas

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So, what do you do with people like that? That's the question for today and it's not a new question but it's one that I think needs to be talked about in a little bit more depth and I want to give as much guidance as I can to people who

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Legitimately have these concerns. So if you are a patron you can join in the podcast later on I told everyone around 845 is probably when it might be after that, but that's that's the earliest

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I'll probably start taking questions and comments. We have people streaming right now. We have some comments already coming in we have

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One person Wade Nelson's interested to see the names. I'm gonna name. I'm sure I'm sure you're not the only one

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Wade I'm sure you're not the only one. Well, I guess I don't need this headset quite yet. So I'm gonna take this off for now and My wires tangled here anyway, so gives me a chance to fix that and we're gonna go through some

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Slideshow stuff before I do though What I'd like to do is play a just a quick commercial if you've seen the last two podcasts.

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That's actually real. It's real food Imagine that. All right. Well, let's talk about the subject at hand

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I have a slideshow that I've made that I've queued up if you're a patron you have access to that It's in the update that I put out there today

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Jeremy says that if Facebook doesn't work out, I think you have a career in commercials. Thanks, Jeremy Well, we'll see about that,

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I don't know if I want to do commercials So I want to start actually really early like really early like John I thought you were gonna talk about social justice and you're going back to the the fourth century here and Yeah, so I want to talk about the

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Diocletian persecution a little bit. This was Spanned the course of four emperors in the

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Roman Empire and Christians were crucified Bibles were taken and burned you had to surrender your

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Bibles you had to many Christians were forced into slavery in the

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Roman Empire and This really took place over the span of around 30 years or so and In this particular situation you had

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A severe persecution and then there was backlash against this persecution.

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So so there was This persecution ended and when it ended

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I'm giving you obviously some very Cliffnote type history here. I had actually

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I have a full presentation on the Donatus that incorporates a bunch of these slides I just borrowed a few of them for this but three groups emerged after the persecution ended and These three groups were those who handed over the scriptures

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So basically the compromises right the Roman soldier comes and knocks on your door Where's the the

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Bible and you give them the Bible right and they go and they destroy it You're just complicit in it. And then there were those who did not hand over the scriptures.

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So they Were suffering right they suffered the punishment for what they did. They might have even died and There are that then there are those who handed over something other than the scriptures so you're asked

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Hand over your Bible and you give them something else that maybe looks like a Bible, but it's not the Bible and and so these three groups existed and what called it what you know, what was considered the church at the time and a culture of martyrdom developed within the

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African Church, especially the Bishop of Carthage Manus miniseries and the archdeacon.

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I can't say these names. It's been a while since I've said them I at one time I could pronounce this stuff, but I haven't pronounced it in a while.

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So we'll just skip his name He stood against the craving for martyrdom So you had leaders in the church who were recognizing?

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This is an issue the martyrdoms become kind of like the pinnacle that we should strive for and that's not really good

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We shouldn't strive for it We should accept it when it comes but it's not something that we we shoot for and think of you know

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That that's the end -all be -all for being holy and a theological debate ensued

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Cyprian's teaching in the unity of the Catholic Church from 251 said there's no salvation outside the church

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Making legitimate schisms a technical impossibility and those separated from the church unable to perform sacraments so you have a theology developing that basically says salvations in the church and These compromisers, it's dubious some some thought it was dubious whether or not they were really part of the church and What about the people who denied some some people outright denied

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Christ and then later wanted back in when the pressure was off The Donatists were a group that believed that the sacraments were only legitimate if administered by someone who did not cave to persecution

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So if you caved then you cannot administer the sacraments you are not a rightful

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Shepherd in the church. You don't have that position. So So they held a heist.

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They had a I'm gonna say a high standard. They had a high standard though and Augustin argued with these people.

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He said that the church was a mixed body And he used different parables of Christ to prove that but that there's there's always going to be tears among the wheat you can't have a it's a pipe dream to say that you can have a

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Church a physical church that is going to be a hundred percent Regenerate and you can be sure that this side of heaven you're that's just not consistent with biblical teaching

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So that's why we have the invisible in the visible Church and those kinds of things So this was the situation back then now

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John what you know, why do you bring this up? Well, I think in light of some of the things today that we're dealing with.

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I think this is an important Parallel to draw and I'm not the first one to draw this parallel We don't want to go towards the

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Donatus side right of saying that we don't want to go too far and Start imposing extra biblical categories and and issuing purity tests that don't allow for repentance

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I think that's the key thing here. If someone's repented if they did something wrong and they've repented and they're In the process of proving themselves.

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It might mean you you might not trust them You might not want to give them the helm. They shouldn't be leading your movement

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Perhaps they're a shepherd who let wolves come in. I mean, that's a pretty bad Shepherd You probably shouldn't give that person their staff back and say go guard the sheep because they ran away last time, right?

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But that doesn't mean that you just kick them out of the church you say well, they're not part of the church I guess anymore if they've repented

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Now if they haven't repented that's another matter, but the Donatus were They were just barring anyone didn't matter if they repented or not if they were

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Compromised during the times of persecution now, we don't have something as severe as that yet At least in this country, of course, if you go to Nigeria or other places, you'll see things similar to that But we did have a time

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I would say and I think it ebbs and flows. I think we're still in this time I just think it's not as severe as it was or at least

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Actually in some ways it's more severe It's just that I think it was it was kind of like when you're when you jump in a cold

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Lake or something if anyone does like the polar dive Initially, it shocks your body and then you just kind of get used to it.

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So I think we're we're still somewhat in the social justice phase But it's not as shocking our bodies are have acclimated to some extent and we don't have

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Buildings burning down and that kind of thing. So we're in the institutional phase of this but when it first started happening along with the kovat stuff at the same time and the me too stuff and the the

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CRT and The transgender stuff. It was all it all really started around the same time period the same 10 year 5 year 3 year 2 year period that you see all this stuff kind of coming to a head, right?

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and This was a time of Making decisions as to what line you were gonna be standing across where you were gonna stand

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This was a time to figure out Am I gonna be on the side of this revolution? Or am I going to be on the other side?

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and of course this podcast it's no Surprise to those who've listened for a long time this whole podcast started with talking about that very issue

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Exposing the people who compromise not because I liked exposing people In fact far from it.

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I really don't like it and even this podcast. I'm dreading to some extent I'm gonna be honest with you. I just think it needs to be done and other people weren't doing it

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They weren't even talking about the issues when I first started not many at least and so I wanted to make sure when

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I talked about these issues I wasn't also naming the names because that's what I see in Scripture. You know, you don't have disembodied evil there's people that promote evil and It's interesting to me how many people you know, it's still are willing to talk about these ideas

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But aren't they have an unwillingness and I'm not saying you have to do it all the time But there's an unwillingness to ever name names.

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So I started naming names and saying hey this guy, you know, Danny Aiken Where I went to seminary at Southeastern, you know,

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I just already named Al Mohler Russell Moore Tim Keller Matt Chandler David Platt, you know I just started naming these people and say this is what they're saying.

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And this is where this these ideas lead and And of course that resonated with a lot of you because you saw it happening at your church

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You saw on the local level with your pastor with whatever ministry you were involved in you saw the same thing and it was compromise it wasn't the same kind of thing that the

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Donatists were we're going through and Reacting to but it was compromise and there were people in our churches it's sad to say this and I gotta be careful on YouTube how

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I say this, but Would there be I'll ask the question I'll put it this way would there be people in your churches who might still be alive if the pastor hadn't pushed

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Certain treatments will say Would there be people in the church who might you know?

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I mean, this is all speculating this speculation to an extent, but it's I think it's healthy to ask these questions

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Would there be people still sitting there? in Instead of rejecting the church and going off with some social justice nonsense

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Would there be families that would still be together if pastors would have preached the truth about these things and guided their

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Congregations through these things. I think yes I don't I think we would be much more united and much less divided if pastors had taken strong stands and you have some people now who want to take some strong stands, but When the battle is not as heavy when it's not raging

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When the cost isn't as much what do you do with that? Right? So I want to start off this is a little bit this is related but it is different than the majority of the podcast because the majority of the podcast we're gonna be talking about people who

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I would say were Indicating at least on some level they were on the social justice side of things and now

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They are making an about -face without acknowledging that they're making an about -face publicly at least this first Example, which is a little different and I feel obliged to play it just because this is what's going around this morning is someone who

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I think many would consider to be very solid and I met him before and he's Alistair Begg is the person and I would say

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I don't discount all this man's preaching because of this one clip but But there's compromise.

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There's compromise. And so I'd like to start off with the question of what do you do with someone like that?

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Who's had some some fairly faithful consistent preaching I think for decades and then says something like this

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So I'm gonna play it for you and then we'll talk about it on the other side in very specific areas this comes across I mean you and I know that we field questions all the time that go along the lines of my grandson is about to be married to a transgender person and I don't know what to do about this and I'm calling to ask you to tell me what to do which is a huge responsibility and in a conversation like that just a few days ago and People may not like this answer, but I asked that I asked the grandmother

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Does your grandson understand your? Belief in Jesus. Yes.

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Does your grandson understand that your belief in Jesus makes it such that you can't countenance in any affirming way the choices that he has made in life

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Yes, I said well then okay as long as he knows that Then I suggest that you do go to the ceremony and I suggest that you buy them a gift.

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Oh, she said What she was caught off guard. I said, well, here's the thing

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There you're not going to your your love for them may catch them off guard But your absence will simply reinforce

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The fact that they said these people are what I always thought judgmental critical

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Unprepared to countenance anything and it is a fancy it is a fine line, isn't it? It really is and people need to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling

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But I think we're gonna take that risk We're gonna have to take that risk a lot more if we want to build bridges into the hearts and lives of those who don't understand

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Jesus and and Don't understand that he is a king Okay, so what do you do with something like this?

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It's just kind of blatantly off There's I don't even know what you would appeal to I mean the only thing he's trying to appeal to principally is that we're supposed to be good witnesses so that means buy a gift if your

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Child or grandchild is marrying a transgender person I don't know if this makes you recall the time there there's a show

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Calvary Chapel put out there called pastors perspective and It was Chuck Smith was getting older and he started there.

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There was actually one There was a few like weird things. He said but there was this one that sticks out to me where a caller called in it was a female

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I believe and asked about abortion and He opened the door for in certain cases, perhaps

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Perhaps right. I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was like wait a minute doesn't that go against everything you've preached and The explanation and and I was somewhat satisfied with this at the time is he's getting old

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Right and I really want to be able to say that about Alistair Begg here It's like well, he's getting older, you know, and if he's getting older perhaps take him out of the pulpit

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Maybe that's what needs to happen. His reasoning faculties just aren't there. He's not thinking straight.

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And so it's like the insanity defense, right? That's what I'd like to say because it really is from what

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I know Maybe there's something some you know that I don't but from what I know That's kind of a one -off that that's inconsistent with the rest of his

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Preaching and so and he is trying to at least say The grandson should know that you disapprove, but then you're going to give mixed signals by going attending

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Right a fake ceremony. That is meaningless but you're gonna attend as a witness before God that these oaths are important and Legitimate and then you're gonna give them a gift so they can start their life together, which is by definition a sinful life a

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Little weird I mean you can still give them a gift and spend time with them without going to the wedding and making it a wedding gift Right and show them that you love them and be a witness, right?

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So this is like So what do you do with this? Well, yeah, I would expect Alistair Bigg needs to He needs to say something publicly needs to repent of this.

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He needs to be confronted on this and Yeah, and maybe if this is the people close to him are realizing that he's having moments like this more consistently

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Hey time time for you to step down. That would be the obvious thing in my mind, but You know, this is it might be a little easier because of age

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In that situation and it's so out of the blue. It just like knocks you down. What do you do though with people that?

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It just seems more calculated right more Consistently premeditated and there's a shift going on and it's in a different direction.

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They were they were on the wrong side now They're on the right side. What do you do with that? I'm gonna take a few questions before I shift here.

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That was kind of the big soundbite of the day But someone says is that common for all people to go squishy on issues?

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Ah, I Just know that even from my family experience older people start to Say weird stuff sometimes and so I mean,

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I think that we all know that, you know I don't know like squishy isn't even the word. It's more just weird So, uh, yeah,

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I I don't know and I don't know I'm not saying that's what's happening with Alex you're big I honestly don't know. I'm just hoping it is because I I tend to like the guy right and I think most of us do

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John said I love you, brother. I see one common thread woven by all these compromisers. They're Calvinist I always said those who let flats

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Church were not the apostates but those who stayed yeah, I I don't really yeah,

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I'm not gonna get into the whole Calvinist Armenian thing right now, but I Don't think that's a hundred percent true

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So and I've heard this from a lot of people that you know It's the Calvinists who are causing the problem

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Alistair Beggs one and I think probably the majority of the people if not all the people to talk about today are part of the reason is the

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The main influencers in the evangelical world now seem to be more Calvinistic unless you're on the the charismatic side of things

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I suppose But that's where I I do say that yes the charismatic churches that were not

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Calvinistic also compromised in 2020 many of them You can pick the denomination.

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You're gonna see a compromise whether it's assemblies of God or even I'm actually flying out In two weeks to a church.

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That was a former Calvary Chapel and I asked why you know why did you have to leave Calvary Chapel and Because they compromised on social justice

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Really and he told me the story and I thought man really there too, huh? It's not every Calvary Chapel I've Calvary Chapel's that support what

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I'm doing Just like it's not every reformed church But but I think this cuts across the denominational spectrum if you look at like the

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United Methodist Church, for example They I mean the Southern Baptist can't hold a candle to them on Compromise when it comes to social justice and and especially the

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LGBT stuff and they're they're very very anti Calvinist Many of them so anyway

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I I don't think it's that but I understand why people think that and that's for a bigger discussion and I think the neo -reformed

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World you're right about the neo -reformed world Which is is not just Calvinist.

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It's kind of a it's a subset. It's a movement a recent movement. That's more puritanical

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Kuyperion and I would say More Missional was the word that used to be used there they were more like on mission to reach the culture and and whenever you have that you're gonna

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When you focus too much on what the culture thinks what happens? Well, we know Alright.

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Well, I don't see any other questions Except dementia. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not saying that I'm not accusing them

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I'm just saying this is like a real thing that people have to navigate, right? alright, so Let's talk about some other figures here as we along I Was gonna mention this to Justin, okay

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So this this is the beginning of this this this is what kind of started my brain going this direction Justin Taylor from the gospel coalition.

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I'm gonna have to be I'm not to summarize to go through all the slides but Justin Taylor recently

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Let's see if I can remember which one it is. That's the first one I think it's the actually the second one's the first one.

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I have these out of order, but He there was a sort of a debate that broke out

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David Schrock and Justin Taylor on Twitter. We're going back and forth a bit and Justin I noticed he did this

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He's talking about the vaccine You know the vaccine And he says if we are going to publicly castigate fellow believers for making different choices than you

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Would have made Should we not also chastise those who told us that this was just a bad flu season and he goes on to that This was the second deadliest pandemic, etc.

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David Schrock had made a post Basically talking about how we've been misled on on that whole thing, right?

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well, I went back to 2021 so a few years ago and While this was all happening and Justin Taylor's asking different questions at that point

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He's asking about whether or not this is kind of like seatbelt laws. Would you oppose seatbelt laws?

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That's like equivalent to the the vaccine. It Shouldn't some things be mandated shouldn't they be obligatory?

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right, so we went from Shouldn't this be obligatory to well, what about you know, just different Christians making different choices?

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That's a shift now. It might be a subtle shift, but but it is a shift That is going from the assumption that this should be

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Mandated to the assumption that this should be a choice Right There's no acknowledgement there that I I know of but that that is a shift and I would say it's going

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He's starting to go in the right direction, right? but there's a lot of public pressure now because in in at least conservative

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Christian circles because There has been so much information coming out showing that what took place in that time period and I'm being careful how

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I say this Wasn't the best So there's a shift and and this is and we all should shift when new information

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Comes that shows that what we previously believed was wrong, right? It's not wrong to shift it's just wrong to act

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I think to pretend like we we didn't or to to just Make it seem like we don't have anything to apologize for if we've misled people

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So now we get into this and this is something this was on December 23rd This is right before Christmas and I was so busy with some things and then as many of you know personal things

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That I never got back to this, but I wanted to get back to this today Someone pointed this out that Andrew Walker had made this post

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He said I think we fail to understand how much of evangelical thought leadership has been calibrated to make plausible the voting for positions and platforms that are unambiguously opposed to scripture and Feeling superior in making such equivocations

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We have the destruction of human life human nature and the human family as core principles of a major American political party

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And yet we're told that minimum wage laws and carbon footprints are worthy of equal consideration So he's saying in this post that look the

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Democrats have an evil platform They they have what they are forwarding There's no moral equivalency between that and what the

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Republicans are affording even in its most negative You know way that you could frame it and he's saying look the evangelical thought leadership, okay now he's a member of that he's a professor at Southern Seminary and he's writes for all you know, the evangelical magazines and outlets and Gospel coalition included right and he's saying hey evangelical thought leadership.

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They've been calibrated now I don't know who did the calibrating but they've been calibrated to make plausible the voting for positions of platforms that are opposed to scripture

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That's a pretty hefty statement. If you think about it That's a big charge to make that much of evangelical thought leadership is compromised this bad that they're actually

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Supporting voting for positions and platforms opposed to scripture and then to boot they feel superior about it.

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So they're arrogant Who could he be talking about right? So this is true.

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This is something that we've been saying for years. This is true And and then you have a couple other people and these

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I'm giving you these three names because these are actually three names that were Given to me as hey, check this out.

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John. Look look at these people who are also supporting what Andrew Walker just said and It's interesting given

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Andrew Walker and each of these people also had some measure of compromise themselves with the woke agenda, so Colin Smothers said if you see an organization platforming

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Michael Ware who is a Democrat operative. This is exactly what they are doing He was literally Obama's evangelical outreach director getting evangelicals to look the other way on abortion and LGBT indoctrination was his day job

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Excellent, right Eric Reid. This is absolutely true. Now watch how people respond to it and equivocate to prove the point good

30:17

Josh Howerton He Posts under this tweet step one

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Keller correctly popularized the phrase the Gospels neither right or net nor left Step two his followers incorrectly treated the phrase as right and left are equal and opposite errors

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Step three willingness to embrace left positions became a sign of your gospel centeredness and being seen as a politically

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As politically conservative was a sign you weren't gospel centered So I want to take a trip down memory lane now

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With each of these guys, I'm gonna show you some another similar kind of tweet. I guess you know a

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Barometer to judge where people are at today by how they reacted to it to another tweet, but there's a shift to the right

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How do I know there's a shift to the right? Well Andrew Walker and here's I put for each of these people whether they wrote at World Magazine or the gospel coalition

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I put their little bio here. So, you know who they are Andrew Walker wrote in 2020.

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This is for this is for breakpoint Formally, I guess Chuck. I think I was Chuck Colson's organization, right or I think it's an

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I don't remember I think I think it's affiliated with Chuck Colson's ministry. What's ahead for the church in 2020 a breakpoint symposium?

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So a bunch of evangelical leaders put their thoughts down about voting in 2020 and this was

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Andrew Walker. Okay He says one of the most pressing issues and I reject it as either the most important or an ultimate issue is the election coming of 2020

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I Offer this not because of my primary concern is conservative versus liberal Democrat versus Republican My concern is the rank divisiveness that the name

31:53

Donald Trump conjures up in evangelical circles What I find to be the case is that Trump opposing Christians and Trump supporting

31:59

Christians both refract Too much of their identity through Trump. It's leading to an inability to disagree amicably or Empathetically exposing yet another idol in evangelical cultural formation

32:11

This division must stop and brothers and sisters must stop judging one another on the basis of their political calculations

32:16

Let me read that one for you again brothers and sisters must stop Judging one another on the basis of their political calculations.

32:26

How about one more time? Brothers and sisters must stop judging one another on the basis of their political calculations, huh?

32:33

Wait a minute Didn't Andrew Walker just didn't I just read for you where he's now judging brothers and sisters based on their political calculations well, you bet but that's not what he said in 2020 and Okay, fine, you know we shift but he says while we need to leave room for conscience

32:51

We can also cannot excuse voting rationales that impute too much to Donald Trump It's wrong to baptize Donald Trump as a

32:57

Christian when he very apparently bears no fruit in keeping with repentance It's also wrong to condescendingly demonize other

33:02

Christians who make the choice to choose the policies of the Trump administration over the Democrats Evangelicals can make reasonable arguments for voting for Trump and evangelicals can make a reasonable arguments for not voting for Trump Let's respect conscience and we believe this and not mistreat one another and not ascribe motives to one another that may not be accurate if you vote for Trump why to legitimize him as a

33:20

Constantinian like Savior or as a pragmatic so it goes on I don't read this whole thing But let's see

33:27

He talks about he gives a call for unity That we need to have unity whether you support

33:33

Trump or not And again, this is not there were no primaries right Trump was already the nominee at this point for the

33:39

Republicans Now at the very least you can say, you know, maybe you could say he's just talking about Republicans, you know not

33:48

Democrat. He doesn't make that really explicit here, but let's assume that He is not near as Aggressive as he is now with saying look

33:58

There's evangelicals out there that are justifying voting for evil and they're arrogant about it

34:07

He's not doing that. He's saying can't we all just get along no matter what we believe about our vote It's a little bit different, right?

34:14

I Think I think I'm I'm on I'm on to something there, right? So This was

34:21

Andrew Walker Yeah, it's conceptual clarity says amazing terrific tweet by Andrew Walker amazing since he has been a big

34:27

Eva guy himself And I'm gonna go into that a little more and I would say yes. Bravo. Bravo for that I I don't think

34:33

I'm probably not making friends with him by talking about this. But But yes, I mean I support what he's doing now absolutely, but that that certainly hasn't been always what he's been doing so I just want to point out a few things.

34:47

This is not comprehensive at all, but Andrew Walker, right He co -authored these are what eight nine nine different books and he's actually a series editor with Russell Moore Randall Walker and Russell Moore on the gospel and Marriage racial reconciliation religious liberty adoption same -sex marriage, etc

35:09

All these cultural issues him and Russell Moore had enough common cause that they were able to be series editors for these things now

35:15

I just want to read for you. This is one Introduction this is an excerpt from an introduction by Andrew Walker.

35:21

This wasn't even that long goes a few years ago on racial reconciliation with Russell Moore And he said recent events whether in Ferguson, Missouri or Charleston, South Carolina remind us that America's wounds on race are still deep

35:35

But we cannot allow our failures as a society to simply simmer in every age The prophetic imagination must be engaged in hopes of making progress

35:42

We saw this in MLK and we must and we are seeing it in our own day

35:47

The church must be on the frontier of racial reconciliation in America in recent American past It was a church that was one of the greatest impediments to racial justice in America But it was also the church that helped inspire

35:58

America and Americans to do What dr. King said to cash this check and check that that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and security of justice

36:08

But the care about racial reconciliation as Christians isn't just about seeing the value of each person as an image bearer as Invaluable as that is it's about picturing the reconciliation offered to each one of us in Christ apart from Christ We were separated from God apart from Christ humanity separates itself from one another

36:24

The wide lens of reconciliation between God and man also grants the reconciliation between the broken chains of humanity in Christ We no longer define ourselves by the color of our skin

36:33

But by the shade of red blood that our Savior spilled to reconcile us personally I have learned so much from contributors to this book amid recent events that demonstrated

36:42

America's ongoing racial tension There are individuals like myself who learned to extend a sympathetic ear to narratives that can so easily be ignored

36:49

It was important for me to put my guard down to set aside any prejudgments That's just one small step but an important one

36:56

Christians Christians must see it as their individual and collective Responsibility to be the change they're hoping to see so Christians have a collective responsibility to Fight racism, right and Of course, he's appealing to MLK here.

37:10

He's saying that though. This is an ongoing issue for even Ferguson, Missouri which we know that that was

37:16

That was not the way it was portrayed by the media It was Charleston was more so obviously but from what we know, of course, there's there's people have conspiracy theories on that but but from what we know

37:29

Charleston was but Ferguson wasn't and he's You know, he's taking the posture of the listener who doesn't really understand and needs to hear these stories and That the church has been the bad guys in this.

37:43

This is Andrew Walker not that long ago. I Remember this Andrew Walker if you some of you will remember this as well.

37:51

This is during the whole Russell Fuller remember in 2020 actually it was in May Russell Fuller started exposing

38:01

Southern Seminary and what was being taught there higher criticism Or aspects of it,

38:06

I suppose critical race theory post -modernism Andrew Walker Countersignaled this right so the day after and this is when it was starting to really gain momentum the the video

38:18

Andrew Walker says you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor Exodus 2016 so, you know, how do you know it's about Russell Fuller?

38:26

Well, yeah, we all knew at the time guys and it was it was in the comments and stuff. I mean, I remember this well

38:32

Russell Fuller is bearing false witness and then The first video was mostly about Dominic Hernandez.

38:38

And so right later that day Andrew Walker, you know One of the first things Dominic Hernandez said to me as we were having lunch together as new colleagues and he told me

38:47

His testimony no one converts to liberalism. How true really grateful for this brother and SBTS colleague

38:53

So he's signaling it, you know, Dominic Hernandez isn't a liberal even though Russell Fuller is exposing that he was on some things that he

39:02

A lot of it had to do with the book of Job and I think Isaiah it was a few years ago now, so my mind's a little fuzzy, but there was

39:10

Sir, he believed that the author of Job Was believed in certain mythologies essentially that if it's an inspired text, then how can you believe how can the author believe in mythology?

39:22

That's the question Not that he mentioned mythology. That's what some people got wrong at the time and and Know that he was believed under the author under supposedly the inspiration of the

39:36

Holy Spirit believe in mythology So there were things like that that were just they undermined the authority of Scripture Now Andrew Walker then goes on.

39:44

This is the same day my entire career I fought for issues in health positions that anyone with a basic tethering to reality would consider essential pillars of conservative evangelical theology

39:52

The institution I teach at SBTS has long been considered a bastion of conservative evangelical

39:57

Theology under Albert Muller's leadership of late certain voices are attempting to challenge the institution's fidelity.

40:03

I don't get it at all Well, the certain voices are dr. Russell Fuller and this is one of the things I'm just gonna say it

40:08

Andrew Walker You know whether he's watching or not. He's probably not but this is cowardly and this is the pattern unfortunately, dr.

40:16

Walker you have of You can't name the name you've got to like counter signal and you you can't

40:24

Tell people who you're talking about If you take my ethics classes, you'll see me defend inerrancy teach it so it goes through his pedigree here

40:32

I haven't taken the stands. I've taken to be called a liberal or be part of an institution. That is a drift Theologically and he listened to this the faculty squarely stands behind the vision and leadership of Albert Muller Matthew Hall and Herschel York Matthew Hall.

40:45

I'm a racist Matthew Hall, right the the CRT Matthew Hall. So this is Andrew Walker when the rubber meets the road and it really mattered because his institution was in trouble and they were

40:57

Cranking out people who some of them were social justice warrior types. That's when he counter signal that's when he actually threw shade on the person trying to do something and so he's somewhat responsible for it and It keeps going

41:13

I mean he he's Let's see. Why did I put these tweets here?

41:18

He said some Christians in this 2022 some Christian leaders tell Christians to downplay politics and culture war Meanwhile, I hear so often from Christians how they are unwontingly subjected to political and cultural issues at every turn work media entertainment

41:29

Do Christian leaders not see this gets disconnect? Okay. I remember why I put this here But this is the same thing you did with Russell Fuller in a way

41:37

Tim Keller Had tweeted out the day before Churches must not maintain unity at the expense of the gospel churches should not destroy unity or fellowship over political differences

41:47

So Andrew Walker correctly is counter signaling Tim Keller here. At least that's what a number of people thought at the time in fact 80

41:53

Robles did a whole video on it and Yet, he can't name Tim Keller He can't talk about Tim Keller that Tim Keller is the one doing this which is interesting when

42:00

Tim Keller died of course, he know Andrew Walker said all kinds of nice things about him and While he's alive, you know

42:07

He can counter signal but he can't actually take a he can't say who he's talking about So that that's um,

42:15

I mean there was someone actually told me today and I didn't look into it I remember it though vaguely that he was for the jab and and there were some other things but but that's that's

42:24

Andrew Walker So not that long ago You know, he is part of the gay He is part of this Establishment that failed to understand how much of evangelical thought leadership have been calibrated to make plausible the voting for positions of platforms

42:35

That are unambiguously opposed to scripture He he could be talking about himself

42:42

Now Eric Reid Writes at world magazine. He is a lead pastor of the journey

42:48

Church in Lebanon, Tennessee He also found in knowing Jesus ministries, and I don't know much about Eric Reid I'm sure he's probably a nice guy, but I'm sure a lot of these guys are nice guys if not all of them, so nothing personal here, but You know

43:01

Eric Reid if you just go back a few years He talks about he says learn from the prophets Piper Moore Chandler So Russell Moore John Piper Matt Chandler the priests

43:11

Peterson. I'm guessing that's Peterson I Don't think it's

43:18

Jordan Peterson. I don't I'm trying to think who's do we might be talking about Ortlund and Kings Grosche Groschel Osborne Stanley not just one so Russell Moore Matt Chandler Prophetic you had to learn from them in 2017 and they were saying the same the same nonsense are also more saying now he was saying then

43:38

Beth Moore a personal thread today. I write without a wit of whininess I've been so blessed and graced by God to get down to do what

43:46

I do and Just talks about social media Yeah, just just it was a thread

43:55

I don't read the whole thread but talks about social media and anyway Eric Reid says I love me some Beth Moore right and Beth Moore.

44:01

I promise you that the love is mutual So there is there's somewhat of a relationship there a positive one

44:08

Thread he says I'm so thankful for Beth Moore. And this is when Beth Moore is talking about She's I've never participated in a

44:16

March before is in 2018 But it's my deep and present conviction that it's time for this white Evangelical to do more than talk the talk it's time to walk the walk in the name of Jesus for the sake of his gospel

44:27

Join me and that's for the March for humanity. I think it was some kind of left left leaning thing as I remember but But my only point is he's very positive about Beth Moore and Beth Moore's engagement and what

44:41

Beth Moore is doing kind of mocked Trump when dr. Moore was when

44:47

Trump said that Russell Moore is a terrible representative for evangelicals Donald Trump was right. Eric Reid was wrong on this stuff now

44:54

Eric Reid though now it's saying great stuff, right? He's saying hey, look, it's Andrew what Andrew Walker said that that's true.

45:00

It's absolutely true Same thing with now Colin Smothers, by the way,

45:06

I don't know a lot about Colin Smothers I asked someone who vouched for him and said I know he's pretty maybe a little

45:11

He's pulled a little bit in that direction In fact, I saw if there's a Facebook post on the they see

45:17

RT stuff from Colin Smothers from a few from 2020 That really wasn't that good. But because in the beginning of it

45:22

He said hey, I want the right to edit this if I change my view. I don't know if he changes view I'm assuming he has

45:28

I decided not to even include it, but he did but I did see this. This was on Facebook Colin Smothers reposted

45:36

Phil Vishers race in America video and In a positive way and he says he carefully demonstrates how discriminatory laws and customs have lamentably shaped

45:46

America as we know it today You don't have to agree with every jot and tittle to recognize the problem to sympathize and to care well, as you know,

45:53

I did a whole video on this and I also have a whole section in my book where I show that Actually Phil Visher was anything but careful about this and yes there were critical race theorists who were he was getting his research from and And so Colin Smothers was taken in by this.

46:09

Okay, that's fine. And he writes for world magazine That's you know, there were people who who did that now, of course

46:16

He agrees with Andrew Walker, you know It's it's great to see that shift, but is there an acknowledgment of that shift that's the question, right?

46:26

Here's another one from this is from JT or actually I'm gonna start with another thread This is another similar to what

46:32

Andrew Walker put out there Josh Howerton Put out how misapplying it was a whole thread.

46:38

I don't have the whole thing, but how misapplying Keller hijacked u .s. Christianity He says large platform evangelicalism got covertly hijacked by secular progressivism

46:46

Many aren't yet understanding what's happening. And as a result are attacking the opposite net problem.

46:52

We are facing. Here's how it happened Keller correctly popularized the phrase the gospel is neither right nor left

46:58

Step two is followers incorrectly apply this phrase as right and left or equal and opposite So I already read this this this is a restatement of a tweet.

47:05

He already put out And he's a disclaimer Keller's followers misapplications were the primary problem in my opinion not

47:11

Keller who I unashamedly love And I recognize this and a lot of people who were treating this who had liked

47:17

Keller previously is like, okay This is a way to kind of get Keller off the hook and get yourself off the hook I don't know if that's what he's doing, but Completely, but it is a way to do that to say like hey,

47:26

I I'm it's okay It's cool that I quoted hell Keller and followed Keller and believed Keller But it's some of his followers who are a nameless faceless group.

47:34

We don't know who he's talking about specifically again Who really got who misread Keller and what

47:39

Keller was trying to do now? Of course a bunch of us myself 80 Robles a bunch of people retweeted this and said

47:45

No, it was Keller Keller was the one the Keller was the problem and that's absolutely true.

47:51

And I've gone to great lengths I have a whole playlist on Keller that shows Beyond a shadow of a doubt.

47:57

I think that no that this is what Keller wanted this this kind of compromise It's like, you know, it transcends the left right

48:04

Division and so you can have people in your church from both perspectives that that's what he was creating That's what he was building

48:10

Now again, you have this this is a shot at what Keller produced though that this left -leaning church that's existing

48:16

You have Eric Reid an absolute necessary threat for understanding what we're facing in the church Many evangelical leaders helped lead the charge over this cliff.

48:24

Yeah, right, but But there's the thing are you one of them? That's my question, right?

48:31

is Like who are we talking about? Who are the evangelical leaders who helped lead the charge over this cliff? Is anyone gonna tell us who these people are

48:40

Colin Smothers read this thread if not for anything else that the stats above Stats about how the left controls all the cultural levels of power if you identify as a leftist you are likely

48:50

More lemming than lion more page than profit, right? but but these guys I think you're kind of all lemmings in a way like I don't

48:58

I'm not saying it every single thing in their lives or every single thing that they do

49:04

I'm just saying there's a guild mentality here that it's after Keller's death that we can finally say

49:10

Some of Keller's followers took his ideas too far. We can't name who those followers are, right? Like while he was still alive, it was you know, the best you could do is a little counter signal without naming his name and So JT English another guy here that I'll introduce in a moment says

49:26

I largely agree with this assessment I'm gonna get back to JT English but Josh Howerton Here's his gospel coalition, he's an author there bio senior pastor of Lake Point Church in Dallas Fort Worth area and I want to point out something to you.

49:43

He this is on Facebook He said a sign of idolatry in our politics is that opponents are not considered to be simply mistaken but to be evil quoting

49:51

Tim Keller He says like this any opposition to acceptance of Syrian refugees into America is just racism hatefulness and xenophobia

49:58

Or this people shouting for acceptance of refugees are stupid naive and probably hypocrites so here he is applying

50:04

Tim Keller's third way you have right you have left and It both of them are the engaged in idolatry.

50:12

This is exactly what he's saying here same guy Some of Keller's followers were misapplying here.

50:19

He is misapplying apparently, but I don't think he's misapplying He's quoting Keller and he's understanding

50:25

Keller So, you know, it's like Josh Howerton like you the man like you you're what you're critiquing is what you've done

50:32

Here's some Josh Howerton for you. Just these are some videos just to give you an idea of where he was at Not that long ago

50:40

Needs no introduction, but I'm gonna give her one Beth Moore has helped tens of millions of women get out of pits step up break free and chase vines for the last 43 years of her ministry and Many of you know that what you may not know is that this is not best first time

51:01

LA point so I dug it all right, I'm gonna stop that for a minute because of time and just say this because I told people that I would start taking questions 845 and later and I'm already at 853 so it'll probably at least nine before I start doing that but Look, you have a guy here who

51:20

Hosts Beth Moore. He's the the pastor of this church he invites Beth Moore Beth Moore comes to his church on a

51:27

Sunday morning to preach a Mother's Day. This was a controversy when it happened.

51:32

This was not long after I believe to go home, you know John MacArthur's go home Beth Moore He does this and he gives her a glowing introduction before she comes and preaches

51:45

This is the same Josh Howerton, okay, this is Josh Howerton again, this is a in 2020

51:51

I just watching the George Floyd video as a father of two African American children it's important to me.

51:58

Here's why this is such a big deal And it should especially be a big deal for the Church of Jesus Guys in the

52:06

Bible if you trace the theme of salvation in the Bible the goal

52:11

God's goal in salvation is the reunification of the races if you don't like desegregation

52:18

You're gonna hate heaven a Christian cannot watch that video

52:24

Honestly, it'll leave you a little shook and not care because racism is not getting worse.

52:29

It's just being filmed Now the question that I think like we have to ask especially if you're like me and you're a white

52:36

Christian We've got it's like man, what would God have of me and Proverbs 31 8 and 9.

52:45

Here's what it says It says open your mouth for the mute for the rights of all who are destitute

52:54

Open your mouth and judge righteously Defend the rights of the poor and the needy

53:01

Now what that means is that there are some groups of people who need more than just justice

53:07

Because of a cultural context they need more than just justice. They need advocacy and What what

53:16

Proverbs is showing is that a wise righteous person will raise their voice for an oppressed group of people

53:23

Some of you when you hear that if you were to read the book of Amos you would go What guy sounds like a flaming liberal, you know, okay

53:31

Well, just track with me The Bible says that that Christians are supposed to be people who we don't quite fit into any worldly Kingdom Now, let me apply that to politics real quick.

53:42

And again, if this is frustrating you just track with me If somebody were to tell you that there were a group of people who rejected bloodthirsty sports and powered women reveled in the combination of races and classes and radically serve the poor

53:55

Well, most people today would go I sounds pretty liberal to me Now watch this

54:01

But on the other hand if somebody were to tell you that there were a group of people who they forbade

54:06

Abortion and infanticide they were against sex outside of marriage They were against same -sex practice and they insisted

54:12

Jesus was the only way to salvation Most people would say sounds pretty conservative to me

54:18

Now don't you see what's happening is that Christians are supposed to be

54:23

God designed us to be a people Who we don't quite fit into any worldly system political party or Kingdom Why because the role of the church is to be the conscience of the nation and as dr

54:39

Tony Evans has said before we can be partisan or we can be prophetic. We cannot be both

54:49

There you have it Josh Howerton talking about now

54:56

Obviously, these are videos that are a little longer and I had to condense for this particular podcast so you can go check those out if you want on Facebook, but Going along.

55:08

I mean this is the message to produce social justice warriors at your church If that's what you're trying to do.

55:13

This is the message He's again in this he is giving the classic Tim Keller third way that look it's not conservative

55:21

It's not liberal Christians transcend this we don't have allegiances and either That's exactly what he's bashing now and saying well some of his followers did this but Josh Howerton It was you you were the guy doing this one of them so Let's see, where do we want to go from here?

55:43

I'm almost done. I think with the slideshow I can add it back to the stage. All right Let's just finish this up.

55:50

And then we will take some questions and Comments, etc

55:57

So JT English another Pastor, I believe I think I have his

56:03

Did not include his bio. Oh, yeah, I did. There's this gospel coalition bio. Okay, so Lead pastor of storyline fellowship in Arvada, Colorado So this is kind of before after here like before he's quoting

56:16

Russell Moore in 2021 The problem now is not that the people think that the church's way of life is too demanding too morally rigorous

56:22

But that they come to think that the church doesn't believe its own moral teachings So more bashing the church JT English kind of here for it

56:30

Resolution on racial reconciliation From the 1995 resolution and he's

56:36

I think that's yeah He says it is not a contradiction to denounce CRT and and I think he meant to put here believe in Structural systemic racism

56:44

Adam Green Greenway made this clear as does this 1995 resolution on racial reconciliation. We've talked about this before Here he is

56:54

Saying I truly believe that a Paul was writing a letter to the American Church Evangelical Church, he would commend

57:00

Beth Moore and Karen swallow prior as Co -laborers for the sake of the gospel. He'd instruct the church to greet honor and receive them in the way of the

57:07

Lord This is incredible. He says I'm so thankful for Beth Moore. And this is Beth Moore saying that a person had called her woke

57:16

So a person called her woke 2018 and it's incredible. She's thankful for Beth Moore This is all

57:23

JT English. Here's a video of JT English To the church critical race theory or travel sports.

57:31

Oh man I'm gonna get canceled for this one right now. I Mean, here's the thing.

57:38

I'm gonna get people are getting mad at me for this. I think it's travel sports. I really do As the next generation goes so goes the church and if the next generation isn't in church, we don't have a church

57:49

Yeah, well there was a was a reason I was asking you that question I thought you might incline in that direction

57:54

All right, there you go travel sports more more dangerous than critical race theory now

58:01

After here's the after for JT English, right? He agrees to Josh Howard to now it was misapplying

58:07

Keller that hijacked us hijacked. That's a strong term hijacked United States Christianity Turned it to the left

58:14

You got this is another tweet. I found recently He says maybe just maybe hear me out on this in a postmodern context where power is the ethic and truth is abandoned gender studies is

58:24

Equals gender confusion not clarity ethnic studies equals more racism not less Well, I'm gonna start taking some questions

58:32

I have some biblical principles to think through as we evaluate this question, but I wanted to set the stage

58:37

These are some good concrete examples because I'm not really afraid to name names I've been doing it for a few years now and people don't always like it

58:46

But that I think that's what courage is right? Like that's what and people don't know what you're talking about Sometimes you don't always have to do it, but I want people to know basically kind of you know what

58:55

I'm talking about. So With that said I'm gonna go to Matt who's in channel right now, and then

59:00

I'm gonna go to Andrew First Matt. Hey, Matt, how you doing? Hey good. How are you?

59:06

Good? Yeah, I think you were you were talking about the laps controversy I think at the beginning of the podcast and and I think what they did back then

59:16

I you may have alluded to this I kind of got on late, but I think to the degree that you have to earn the trust

59:22

It's gonna take longer to actually earn that trust. So so if they have a history of being woke or Putting out make mega thousands of tweets or articles

59:34

You know the the bar is gonna have to be set higher for them to come back to the floor if they want to do

59:39

The shit that's kind of my view on it Like Alistair Bay if he just had a slip -up one time

59:45

It was a big slip -up obviously, but like you said it may be due to other issues But he's had a faithful ministry for a long time

59:52

And he hasn't had that history. It's probably not going to be you're probably gonna get a greater benefit of the doubt

59:59

If he's gonna shift but for some of these people that you just talked about where they have a long history of this and The and it was a little more egregious kind of like what happened 1 ,800 years ago.

01:00:11

It's gonna require a lot more Time for the repentance to be proven

01:00:17

Forthwith and that's kind of my position on the whole thing It's you have to earn trust and the bar is going to be higher if that trust was abridged more egregiously

01:00:26

Yeah, yeah, I agree You know thinking about Peter, you know, what was his track record like I mean as an apostle probably pretty good

01:00:34

But he still needed to be confronted when he was in error It didn't disqualify him from being an apostle or being a leader in the church

01:00:40

But he had to repent about it and and that's That's the thing.

01:00:46

I think we're missing it. This comes up to with the whole concupiscence debate like people get shocked like they're like,

01:00:54

I can't be that bad like you mean These these desires if you if you even have a desire for something

01:01:02

God hasn't approved of like that sin that that would be I'm sinning a lot and it's like well, yeah, like Right so that we get we get used to repenting and apologizing and that should come as second nature

01:01:14

I mean, I have to do it to my wife all the time. So But there's like an apprehension to do that it seems in a lot of quarters

01:01:21

I Agree with you though. I think you're spot -on. So thanks for sharing that. No problem.

01:01:27

Thank you. Yeah, any other comments or questions? Yeah, I think it's it's just like In a local church context,

01:01:37

I mean if somebody's excommunicated obviously, you know, it's kind of a similar process

01:01:42

I mean, how do you earn back the trust of people? Well, right ends on how public are you and how you know?

01:01:48

There's probably a period of time where you know, you're gonna have to prove your pens and a matter of fact I think back in the 200s

01:01:56

Some of the some of the people back then Did not allow the laps to get back into the church until there's another persecution where they could prove their repentance, right?

01:02:05

so I I mean With these guys, I mean true times gonna tell I mean if in five years

01:02:11

They're saying the same things they did last last week, you know, okay Let's take another look but and and another good biblical example is

01:02:18

John Mark, you know Barnabas and Paul at a rift because I don't know that's right.

01:02:24

Yeah. Yeah, we don't know what the deal is with that We don't know if it was theological or if it was just he he was kind of a you know

01:02:31

Irresponsible kid but later on Paul said, you know, he was an asset to my ministry.

01:02:37

So obviously there was He did take him back. So I think there is precedence biblical precedence in church history precedence to take people back but The degree to which you have to earn the trust is going to depend on you know to the degree to which you lost it

01:02:52

Yeah, I mean David was received back right, but he also received consequences

01:02:58

Yeah, and that's the thing like you can't There's got to be some kind of like an acknowledgement and in some cases perhaps even consequences like well, you're no longer

01:03:07

We're gonna bring you away from the steering wheel because you crashed the car We don't want you to do that again until you go to driving school and come back, you know

01:03:16

So yeah, I mean that that's what's not happening. It seems like it just seems like it's a About face and we're just kind of expected to pretend like there never was a switch like some of these people they've been saying this all along and critiquing

01:03:31

Keller and it's like no you were the ones that were actually applying what

01:03:36

Keller was teaching and trying to get the church to go that direction and At least acknowledge it, right?

01:03:43

So yeah, no good points Matt Matt. I appreciate it. Thank you for the support. Yeah. Thanks I'm going to add

01:03:50

Andrew isker to the stage. Hey Andrew. Hey, John. How are you? Good? How's the book doing?

01:03:57

Oh, it's doing well. Yeah, it's Yeah, a lot of people are Reading it and and the support from people's been awesome

01:04:06

Great. I'm glad to hear that. So So what do you think about this? We were kind of going back and forth in a private chat earlier today about this whole issue and I can't remember if we disagreed or not.

01:04:20

I can't either We mostly agreed, you know, and I didn't have a lot of time to follow up and check in on it

01:04:26

But you know, I think some I mean, there's there's so many different Variables in in all of this stuff so like with the

01:04:36

You know with these younger guys That are kind of you know in in the big Eva world

01:04:42

That have indicated Some reticence with with a with wokeness and and all of that and with the direction things have gone

01:04:51

Right. I think I think one of the things that's happening is that they have recognized that a substantial portion of the laity is

01:05:03

Is totally against it like not even Not just having trepidation but like a hundred percent against it.

01:05:11

They get what it is and And and so they they see this opening they see that kind of big

01:05:17

Eva in a lot of ways has collapsed and And so I I have a hard time not looking at it like very cynically

01:05:24

Where it's like, oh, they're trying to carve out kind of this middle ground To rebuild a little bit of credibility to say, okay, we're not like that But the the you know leopard really hasn't changed its spots at all right there's still

01:05:41

These very shrewd cynical operators within that system Right. And so that's that's kind of how

01:05:48

I look at it until like proven. Otherwise, right? And and how would you prove? Otherwise?

01:05:53

It's right now we're almost in this like cooling off period where all the stuff that happened in 2020 happened and Maybe crazy stuff like that's gonna happen here in 2024

01:06:05

And then we'll know but at this point I I just look at it like a lot of these guys want to make the new big

01:06:14

Eva, which isn't super woke But isn't necessarily like anti Anti woke anti left -wing or isn't consciously right -wing if we want to put it that way, right?

01:06:28

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah, that's and so like like the previous fellow

01:06:33

Matt Said like how do you how do you rebuild trust? Like how did how would these guys?

01:06:39

Make it so that we could trust them It's it's the kind of thing where it's like, okay, not only saying

01:06:47

Mistakes were made there were problems with this which like everybody gets everybody can see unless you're just this total ideologue and you're totally complicit in all of it, um

01:06:59

It would have to be like no, they're gonna take a much further right turn and And prove it and say things that are actually costly, right?

01:07:10

Right? And so like you have the Yeah, yeah like the example of the early church where yeah, they wouldn't let people back in the church after they gave up the

01:07:19

The Bibles and documents and things like that under persecution Is one thing where that's that seems like really extreme and it certainly was

01:07:28

Um But at the same time Right, we're in a similar circumstance like that now today where they took the side of our enemies

01:07:38

During during this intense period and now they're walking it back like I look at like the that thread of Justin Taylor's that he had on Twitter where he's like well, both sides were wrong during kovat and Mistakes were made man, you know, yeah,

01:07:55

I don't know if you covered that but it was like No, no Right thing to say the right thing to say is we were totally wrong

01:08:01

We were we were gushing over Francis Collins the entire time and calling and treating anybody that had even the least bit of skepticism like they were insane and evil people and We can never trust you again at this point

01:08:15

Like if Justin Taylor guys like that were to go on and say yeah, we were 100 % totally wrong. It's like that's cool

01:08:21

But time to step aside like you you had your chance and you totally failed

01:08:28

And so like but I think the the thing with Alistair Begg like I saw you know you guys brought that up to like Like that one seems to me like totally different Than this where I don't look at him like one of these

01:08:41

Younger Big Eva guys who are just these kind of cynical shrewd operators trying to worm their way up through the the ranks

01:08:49

He's had He's been a celebrity for a long time and has been a well -known person in a personage and And the thing right now like I'm I'm in the middle of a

01:09:00

Twitter controversy on it and and because I'm just like Yeah, this guy's had decades of faithful ministry and everyone's benefited from it

01:09:09

But you have to understand the context of the faithful ministry It's that like you can you can preach, you know

01:09:16

Four decades of sermons on justification in the book of Romans and things like that in positive and neutral world and nobody's

01:09:24

Nobody's gonna like fight you about that. Nobody is there's not gonna be any intense pressure for you to apostatize or just to to show this weakness, but now that exists and And he's shown it now.

01:09:39

We're in a negative world and like the first opportunity buckles Right, which which goes to show like there's a trajectory there like you don't just wake up one day and say yeah

01:09:49

It's totally fine to go to the gay wedding right after decades of faithful ministry, it means like this this weakness and this this willingness to accommodate evil has been baked into the cake over over many many years and and so even if like Next week he goes on and he's like, oh

01:10:08

I was wrong about that. I've received correction I'm repentant over what I said, you shouldn't do that It's still in the back of your mind.

01:10:16

It's like Okay, this is this is this is not good Like how did you get to the point where you even even could possibly consider that this was wrong?

01:10:24

Like one of the one of the things I said, you know privately to some guys. It's like imagine you know a a

01:10:34

World -renowned mathematics professor at like Oxford or Harvard or something like that Like this is a guy who knows everything there is to know about math and then one day

01:10:42

Right. He's sitting in an interview and somebody says like what's 2 plus 2 and he's like 7 right any

01:10:49

It's like well, maybe maybe the math that he was doing we should call into question a little bit.

01:10:55

Maybe he's lost it Like maybe he shouldn't be this world -renowned professor anymore and it should step aside

01:11:01

Right, that's that's the way to look at it The pressure's on now man, like it it it hasn't been before and well like if with Alistair big like if it is like he's getting old and like that was just a wacky like he just Did theology on the spot and the first thing that came to his head was like well

01:11:19

We should be gracious and that's how it came out That's still an argument that he he should probably step aside, you know, cuz it's like yeah

01:11:28

An insanity to defense has the same result it's you know, you're no longer in that position

01:11:35

And I know that there's people listening. You've probably listened to Alistair big for years. I've met him. He's a very nice man but that was that was a crazy answer and You know, but but yeah,

01:11:46

I think you're right about these other guys. They're a Lot of them and I don't know them all intimately, but it's about Andrew Walker, though I have been paying attention to him for a few years.

01:11:57

And yeah, I mean, I don't trust him Like that's just the bottom line. I don't trust him He's been on the other side of so many things usually counter signaling in and I know you talked about this

01:12:07

Andrew is isker different Andrew. I know you talked about this But but it people are gonna be upset at me some some of you might be it's effeminate though The way that these guys will counter signal where they can't name names where it's like it's so ambiguous but it also like everyone knows kind of like where you're trying to drive everyone to and And Walker has just like the epitome of that in my mind because I've just seen on so many issues over the years

01:12:35

I'm like, oh, there's a Walker tweet and I'm like, I know what he's talking about. But if you Wouldn't know.

01:12:41

Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so yeah, well if you look at one quick quick thing if you look at the word conspiracy

01:12:48

I did this once with Andrew Walker go to his Twitter do it an advanced search conspiracy theory conspiracy theory

01:12:55

If you go pre 2020 almost without a doubt, it's applied to the right. The right is you know?

01:13:02

Conspiracy actually really before 2021 as soon as Trump is elected all of a sudden when he uses the word conspiracy

01:13:09

It's applied to the left. They're the conspiracy theorists. I'm like what happened what you know, it's just weird

01:13:15

It's like the wind will change things. Anyway, go ahead yeah, no, no, I think you're right and and and And like the the hard thing is

01:13:23

I I just look at it like, okay So you guys guys like us guys guys that are you know, friends of ours?

01:13:31

Are are sort of the vanguard right this tiny little group that has

01:13:37

Raised the alarm on on different things over the years and like can see the trajectory of things see where things are at You see the problems that nobody else is seeing and are saying it and then

01:13:52

Right when when it's more widespread when more people are like, oh, yeah These guys who we thought were nuts are actually right like there are all these problems

01:14:02

Then you have these other get these, you know former Big Eva types right kind of jump in and and and follow

01:14:11

The path that's been tread by by by guys like us right and and it's hard not to look at that and think

01:14:21

Are how are they using this to like their own advantage? How are they using this to like carve out a space for their own careers and Stuff like that and and and to bring us back to the point of like 2014 or something, right?

01:14:38

if we could just get back to where 2014 was and Be where I you know where I was not not me, but but them right where things were at for me 2014

01:14:47

That's where I really want to be right before wokeness before all this kind of stuff That's that's where we really want to go and it's like that's not that's not possible.

01:14:55

It's not yeah It's not enough to be not woke. It's it's you have to be actively anti woke

01:15:01

You have to be fighting these things and and like taking the slings and arrows from it, right?

01:15:06

That that's part of it in in terms of like building trust Right. Yeah, I want to see these guys get attacked and destroyed and called racist and called bigoted and called all this stuff and Until there they show a willingness to to go there, right?

01:15:22

How can you trust him? Yeah yeah, they they didn't have to take the pressure that many of us did and they seem to be trying to Capitalize on the the benefits that are coming from being right about those things when they were not right about those things

01:15:39

Yes, and and that that is it's a frustrating thing. I don't have the personal. Yeah, I admit it's frustrating

01:15:45

But I don't have like a like I'm jealous or like oh, that's you know Hey, look at me like I was saying the right thing before like who cares like I'm glad they're saying the right thing

01:15:54

But oh for sure. Yeah, but but yeah, the motive does I think can be called into question when it is such an about face

01:16:02

Yeah, and I don't want to say like I'm I'm imputing motives to people and saying like this is definitely what they're doing

01:16:09

I want to be careful not not to do that But to say like that it's still an open question though Like we shouldn't just simply assume that the motives are always pure either right?

01:16:19

It should be like the jury's out is yeah Well, well when you have leadership when you're putting someone into leadership, they need to be tested.

01:16:26

That's a biblical principle They need to be faithful in a little before they're faithful and much and they've been on a lot of these guys have been

01:16:31

Unfaithful and so yeah, what do you do with an unfaithful person? Well, the faithfulness has to be reestablished somehow and it's not going to be by Keeping their hands on the steering wheel like they can't be near the steering wheel.

01:16:45

They've already proven that that's not the place for them. So The leadership crisis is the biggest thing right now.

01:16:51

I think in evangelicalism. It's how do we get guys? that Younger like 80

01:16:57

Robles like yourself People who have seen what's going on who have taken arrows for it as you said

01:17:04

How do those people climb the institutional ranks to gain? Institutional credibility and authority because they're not allowed in yeah, and so, you know either new institutions have to form that don't have these compromises, you know, or Or the gates have to be opened and I don't see any sign that those gates are going to be open

01:17:24

It's more of like what's happening It seems to me is that there's a large portion of people in the church in the pews who see what you and I see

01:17:32

And they're mad about it But their leaders there's a complete disconnect like the leaders are now hearing some of that and realizing

01:17:41

Hey, they're gonna there's gonna be pitchforks and torches if we don't at least acknowledge something here.

01:17:46

So we're gonna go acknowledge something and That that is at least a very

01:17:53

Possible motivation here that that's that that's what would fit what were the information?

01:17:58

Yeah, and so So they try to Quell the mob so to speak and at least you know bring about somewhat of a unity in their church please the people who are giving to the church and In the meantime though nothing actually changes as far as the leadership's concerned

01:18:14

It's the same people who ran you into an iceberg last time So, how do we you know,

01:18:20

I don't know the topic of the podcast wasn't really how we get out of that it was more like how do we handle the people who ran us into icebergs and now pretend like they're gonna get us out of it, but But that I think that's the obvious next question is okay

01:18:34

Now that we know that they need to go through a process of repentance at the very least in the meantime

01:18:40

How do we facilitate getting solid people into those positions so that they can be the ones steering the ship?

01:18:46

I don't know the answer to that So it's I mean, it's a question about Incentives right?

01:18:53

I mean like you look at at the way Big Eva was structured you look at the way churches denominations seminaries things like that like The the guys who

01:19:06

Ended up in these positions, right? They they knew the things that they had to do they need the they knew the tact that they had to take

01:19:12

In order to climb the ladder, right? And so you look at like what happened in 2020, right?

01:19:18

There's a reason why all those guys lined up the way that they did on all of those things or even even the things before That on racial justice and everything else, right?

01:19:27

They knew what the party line was and and they knew if you if you deviated from that you're done, right?

01:19:34

You're you're You're never going to be you might be kicked out of your denomination You might all sorts of problems are gonna come for you if you deviate from the party line and so all the incentives were lined up that way for from the get -go like for Even like the the men who were attracted to go to seminary right before they even go

01:19:52

They know the kind of man that they are going to have to be is one who is going to say yes, sir and and do and and tow the party line from from the bottom all the way to the top and And so how do you align incentives in such a way as to get guys who are not like that?

01:20:10

Well, like you said there have there has to be alternate pathways to raise up men who

01:20:17

Who are not like that and the structures that we currently have? Right. All the incentives are aligned to produce right even if even if they move away from wokeness and stuff like that Like it's still gonna produce guys who are like that who whatever from on high the party line is

01:20:33

From from the elite consensus on the top, right? They're gonna follow that whatever it is.

01:20:39

And so you need to you need to incentivize men who are going to Reject that and and think for themselves.

01:20:47

And so how do you how do you do that is the you know million -dollar question? But the best

01:20:55

I've come up with I've suggested Kind of going to a local church model more so sort of even more localism and I mean, this is kind of what you get out in the

01:21:04

Boniface option to that think locally and What you have control over is all that you can influence really anyway

01:21:11

So in a local church there raise up pastors from within people that you have

01:21:16

Seen grow over the years and not someone who's the new seminary higher You've never met before because you're taking a gamble when you do that.

01:21:24

It could work out, but it might not and And so, you know that that's one way

01:21:30

I think to do it starting new institutions I mean American Reformer has been kind of a game changer I mean,

01:21:36

I think some of the pressure that's coming on people like Andrew Walker is coming from American Reformer and and so There is at least there was someone who had the foresight and the resources to be able to put an organization together

01:21:50

That could band together the kind of people you're talking about that were more intelligent and independent thinkers

01:21:58

Because there are a few of them do exist. Yeah, but they tend to be disqualified at lower levels they don't tend to make it up the ranks and so Anyway, well,

01:22:08

I got you want to plug anything Andrew plug your podcast? Oh, yeah. Well Contramundum, I do that with CJ Engel every

01:22:16

Friday at 5 p .m. Central So you can check that out on YouTube or tomorrow night people get podcasts.

01:22:23

Yeah, we're gonna I think we're gonna talk about Alistair Begg You want to hear more about that? Well, we'll discuss that and and and these kind of topics

01:22:33

Because it is It's so it's so crucial for people to to start to think through this stuff because this stuff is going to happen more and more there's going to be more and more of these defect, you know seeming defectors from Big Eva that I Don't know what to think about them.

01:22:50

You know, we should be careful. So yes. Yep. All right. Excellent. Thanks Andrew Yeah, I appreciate it.

01:22:55

All right. See you later. Say hi to CJ. All right DD and his creation.

01:23:02

I see both of you are in the chat, but your devices are not connected. So If you want to connect your device your webcam and your microphone

01:23:11

Unmute it. I will go to you. If not, I'm just gonna take a few questions and comments and then we'll land the plane here, so Let's see, they're mostly comments.

01:23:24

I don't see a whole lot of question marks here, but there's a lot of comments So someone says I must have missed what happened with big.

01:23:31

Okay, you have to go back to the beginning of the podcast. Sorry Let's see

01:23:37

Contramundum is excellent. Yep. I've had CJ on a few times Actually, and I know

01:23:43

Andrew's been on before and they you know Andrew I should have asked him this when he was on I think

01:23:48

Andrew comes from a little more of a theonomic background and then CJ Is more of a paleo -conservative

01:23:55

Background and they do a show together. I think though they probably both I don't know I mean, I don't know where Andrew's at now. I think he might call himself kind of a paleo -conservative, but they definitely bring that kind of political understanding

01:24:07

To their Christian commentary, which is so rare oftentimes on Christian political shows

01:24:13

It's guys who maybe went to seminary or Bible school who know a little Bible and then they're just trying to like go off What the news says and like how do we bring the

01:24:21

Bible to this, but they haven't actually Read political thinkers. They don't know politics.

01:24:27

They don't know history well, they tend to just try to like with a blank slate with their

01:24:32

Bible approach a current issue and sometimes, you know you get it right that way, but it's

01:24:38

Much better when you have a rich kind of long view and I think those guys tend to that's what they want to do

01:24:44

John do you have there's a question. Do you have a favorite theologian books commentary? Kinda yeah,

01:24:51

I was actually just thinking about this yesterday. So someone was asking me like who do you listen to? I don't really listen to modern preachers that are popular.

01:24:58

This is kind of weird maybe to some people But I don't there's no major ministry that I listen to consistently anymore.

01:25:06

There used to be some I actually go on sermon audio and I look up Bible passages and Topics that I want to know more about and I download sermons from preachers

01:25:17

You've never heard of and I probably couldn't tell you the names of most of them. So That's mostly what I do the now.

01:25:22

The other thing is I will read some dead people sometimes I read some people who are alive too.

01:25:30

But I as far as favorites, I don't I don't know. I don't really Most of the people that I really like are have been passed for a long time.

01:25:38

So I like Augustine He doesn't have like a Bible commentary, but I like I do like Augustine a lot I like to go to Calvin's commentary to be honest with you.

01:25:46

That's usually my first now It didn't always it wasn't always my first Turretin.

01:25:51

I like to read Turretin's commentary when I can although the lately it seems like I go to Turretin's three -volume set and like I'm like,

01:26:00

I want to know more about this passage and he's like, ah, he skipped over that one. So But but when he talks about something

01:26:07

I tend to listen to what he has to say Uh, who else I know there's another I you know, there's this website called free

01:26:13

Bible commentary dot org James Utley, he's a

01:26:18

Southern Baptist. He's still alive. He's older, but he put out all his commentaries for free and They're actually really good

01:26:25

Bible study tools. They're they're very simple. They're free I just I think that I don't agree with everything but it's they're pretty good in my opinion and very accessible

01:26:35

So I'll go to his stuff Yeah, that's probably enough for now so those are yeah, those are some of the people

01:26:42

I like to go to Luther You know, I go to some pretty standard like reformed thinkers,

01:26:49

I suppose All right other questions My friend has been a probation on probation at his local church for two years

01:26:58

After a public confession of sin and borrowed from the Lord's Supper due to suicide and attempt to a suicide attempt in drinking

01:27:05

Do you think this is correct? Well is okay, so he Okay, so he confessed his sin publicly

01:27:12

Whoa, wait a minute. Hold the phone. He confessed his sin and he's being barred from the Lord's table on what basis

01:27:21

Something doesn't seem right about that if we confess our sins He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

01:27:28

So Why would he be barred from the Lord's table if he's confessing his sin? I don't understand that one at all

01:27:37

Okay, I am going to Yeah, so people are putting in their favorites in the chat box

01:27:43

Paul Washer a W Tozer I used to listen to a lot of Paul Washer.

01:27:49

I would say if you asked me 10 years ago I probably would have said Paul Washer All right, let's

01:27:56

Let's finish this slideshow believe it or not. I wasn't done. I said I'll solve some biblical Principles here that I want to talk about in evaluating these questions and then we'll land the plane so We'll start here

01:28:10

What should leaders do these are just some things I thought of leaders should demonstrate responsibility So he was faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much and he was unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much

01:28:22

Luke 16 10 I Mentioned that earlier You Look at faithfulness over the long period

01:28:30

They should be pure in heart Proverbs 16 7 says But the Lord said to Samuel do not look at his appearance or at the height of the stature

01:28:37

Because I rejected him for God sees not as man sees for man looks at the outward appearance the Lord looks at the heart and I think of In this situation the fact that in academia and in pastoral roles

01:28:50

Especially academia pastoral roles. It is a benefit to you to look good It isn't really in every field but in academia, it's not as high of a priority.

01:28:59

It's the Degrees you have and the connections you have and that kind of thing, right? And so that's how man sees the

01:29:07

Lord though doesn't look at that. The Lord looks at the heart And so that's what you need to look at.

01:29:12

I think when you're looking at a leader You can't just look at like oh man He went to this institution and he's so well connected and he's got these degrees and we should follow him.

01:29:20

No, that's not how it works Luke 16 13 serve one master

01:29:25

No servant can serve two masters for either he will hate the one and love the other or he will be devoted to one And despise the other you cannot serve

01:29:31

God and well so, you know if you think if you have reason to believe someone is compromised because they are

01:29:38

They are trying to serve two masters in many cases I see this as like the pastor or the theologian is trying to serve the congregation or the

01:29:47

Students and they're also trying to serve the institution And be part of a guild right that gives them kind of like an advantage

01:29:57

You can't have that if you're a pastor your allegiance is to the flock. That's your job

01:30:05

There's not a hierarchy beyond the church that they should be playing to right Be tested first Timothy 310 these men must also be first tested and let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach

01:30:15

So testing making sure that this person It goes through Hardship that they come out the other side and you know that they'll be consistent in that So and then we should confront brothers in Christ and then restore brothers in Christ.

01:30:29

So confront means I put a few verses here first Thessalonians 514 We urge you brethren admonish the unruly encourage the faint -hearted help the weak be patient with everyone

01:30:38

The question is, you know, some of the guys I talked about on the podcast today. Are they unruly? Are they faint -hearted? Are they weak now if they're weak?

01:30:44

This is a separate question from whether they should be in the positions of influence But if they're weak then help them out, right and and I think you know,

01:30:53

I forget which one it was It was one of the guys, you know, I I don't know a lot about him I know that in 2020 he went, you know a little woke and it was kind of Probably a he's a young guy.

01:31:03

He's in development and you know, that was a few years ago And maybe maybe that was just a weakness that he had at the time

01:31:09

Well, it's just time to confess and move on right to realize it or realize you're wrong and move on perhaps

01:31:15

Someone who's got a more serious train of pushing the church and had more influence that's a little different So there are different circumstances, but this is the grid that I apply

01:31:25

Proverbs 28 13 he who conceals his transgressions will not prosper. He even confesses confesses them forsakes them will find compassion

01:31:32

They should confess. That's the actually the kind thing to do Matthew 7 talks about this is the don't judge passage, right?

01:31:40

If you look at the spec in your brother's eye, but you're not notice the log in your own eye How can you say take the spec out of your own eyes?

01:31:46

So We should confront people who make it. This is actually something

01:31:52

I see that's bad among evangelical leadership is They have a habit of having logs in their own eyes and seeing the specs

01:32:00

In other people's You know Making something it's taking making a comment that's insensitive in some way becomes like so much worse

01:32:10

Than like soft -pedaling same -sex attraction, right? So it's like stuff like that restore brothers in Christ to the

01:32:16

Brethren, even if anyone is caught in a trespass you who are spiritual restore such a person and a spirit of gentleness each one looking to Yourself so that you will not be too tempted.

01:32:26

So restore people and restore them in gentleness. No, there's acceptance here Like there's acceptance there's forgiveness

01:32:32

Trust may be have to be built up again, but there's forgiveness We're brothers Matthew 18 15 if your brother sins go and show him his fault in private if he listens to you you have won your brother and then

01:32:44

Ephesians 4 32 be kind to one another tenderhearted forgiving each other just as God in Christ has forgiven you and So these are just some good verses.

01:32:53

I think To you know realize each of us have sinned that we have to be forgiven of and that's where the

01:33:00

Lord Jesus Christ comes in Jesus Christ son of God The the God man though, he's 100 %

01:33:07

God 100 % man came to this earth died on a cross for the sins of his people and those who repent and believe in him for their salvation and Will be put back into a right relationship with God will receive the

01:33:20

Holy Spirit And that's the good news of the gospel and it's not our work. It's his work So that's the podcast for today.

01:33:27

I hope that that was helpful to many of you Again if you're a patron you go to patreon .com

01:33:33

forward slash worldview combos or worldly conversation I think is what it is. It is in the info section for this video and in the podcast