Church of Christ Revisited

Well, I messed all that up, we're already live. Messed it all up, that's fun. It's been a long time since I've done this, so welcome everybody.

We didn't even do the intro and everything, that just messed it all up. So, let's see if we can do the intro, that way it makes everybody happy.

This is Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host, from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport.

Okay, we are live, we have a good show for you tonight. We're, sorry

I was talking, I had it on mute and didn't even push in the audio there.

And so, messed it all up. So anyway, we're live tonight, Andrew's not with us, we're flying solo,

Josiah Nichols is here with us and Preacher Norm's here as well, they're in the back. But see, we're live and Andrew's not here.

Andrew had a family issue, I ask you guys to be praying for him and his family as he's away.

I don't know what he wants me to get into, so I'm just not gonna get into the detail of it. I would ask you to be praying, be praying for him and his family, for a strong godly witness, a faithful witness.

I would ask you to be praying for our show tonight. And we have a lot of really good stuff in tonight.

We're gonna have a good conversation, I hope. And with that, I'm gonna bring Josiah in. Hey, brother.

Hi. How are we doing tonight? I'm doing better than I deserve. Well, good. You know what?

You said that a couple of times, so. Hey everybody, Marvin, Marvin Germino says, hi,

Pastor Justin. Hey, how are you doing? It's good to see you. Well, good to see your writing, should

I say. Anthony is on the earth, KT, and Jesus says, where's

Anthony? Is he still on the earth? He is on the earth. I'm not sure where he's at. He could be on another planet, but I don't know.

Not sure. Anyway, so let's get to a little bit of good news.

Well, I don't know if it's good news or not. Okay, so I don't know if everybody heard about it, but the bad news part is last week, we didn't get to talk about it, but it was a

Holocaust remembrance. And that was a terrible time in the world as people were murdered because of their ethnicity.

They were murdered because they were Jewish. Now, in the woke narrative that you will hear today, the only people that are racist are white, and you are grouped.

Josiah, I don't know, you probably know this too, but you're grouped by your color. Everything is racial. It's all, you're white, so you're the oppressor, and it doesn't matter who you are.

Well, that narrative has been getting louder and louder and louder, and a lot of voices have been coming out.

And even in the church, Tim Keller, and all these guys have been just rushing to purport this narrative, if you will.

Well, in the media, everybody knows it. In the media, it's everywhere. Yes, Mike Smith says,

CRT, critical race theory. Everything is about race. Critical race theory is not the idea that you're, it's not the idea that you're critiquing racial disparities.

What you're doing is you're destroying perceived racial disparities.

Well, one of the big proponents of it, guess who it might be? What do you think,

Josiah? Who might be one of the big voices for the whole idea that everything's racist if it's white?

Oh, let's see. I'm guessing Donald Trump, right?

Donald Trump, he's a racist. Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah. See, he's a racist. But who else might be?

And whatever the view is that you might have, this one, oops, there it is.

Captain Black Eagle, threw it up there before you did. So Whoopi said, as a black woman, blah, blah, blah, she's saying all black women are the same.

So now think about this. Whoopi - I thought she was Catholic. I thought she was all about, you know, all about peace and harmony.

Yeah. Mostly musical harmony and the sister act. Something along that line.

She has a lot of singing going on in that movie. But I don't know if you guys heard about it, but sometime last week,

I don't watch it. So sometime last week, she came out and started proclaiming that the

Holocaust was not about race. And there's a reason for it. She's being consistent because white people aren't racist against white people.

And Jewish people, according to their, their, the CRT mindset,

Jewish people are not Jewish people, they're white people. And, you know, they have a whole list of who's white.

In other words, if you're, if you're Japanese, well, you're white. And so it's okay to disparage you.

And it depends on where you're at. So anyway, she comes out and she says that the entire

Holocaust was not about race. But she has to say that to be consistent.

But the problem is, is that you have a whole world of people who aren't ready to go down that rabbit trail yet.

And they'll go down it eventually because they'll run right along with her. Because she's the one that started out saying it.

So she's the one that's going to be perceived as the villain for just a little bit. She says, you know, it's not about race.

And then Joy Behar got angry and she got upset and they, effective immediately,

Whoopi Goldberg, according to the CBS News, I'm reading a report right now. Whoopi Goldberg was suspended from the

ABC's View for two weeks. She needed a vacation. So she's suspended from the

View for two weeks because she was saying that the Holocaust was not about race.

So what do you think about that? It kind of goes against everything

I learned in middle school, whenever I went to the Holocaust Museum and we were told that Hitler was saying, hey, we're going to be promoting the

Aryan race because we're the most highly evolved people in the whole world. And everybody who isn't

Aryan, we're just going to shut you down. We're going to kill you off and put you in, first it was ghettos, then concentration camps.

And anybody who defended the Jewish people,

Corrie Ten Boom was one of those people who was a Christian who believed that all people were created in the image of God.

She held that Jewish people should live. And so she hit them and she was sent to the concentration camp for it.

Yep, absolutely. You know, John, he's in the back. He's going to jump in here with us in a minute.

He posted that it's because of the redefinition of racism, only black people can be the subjects.

They're constantly oppressed. No matter what the situation is, they're constantly oppressed. And so they're the subjects of racism.

One thing that you may not know is that Adolf Hitler, his ideology came from Darwinism.

He was a staunch Darwinist. He was not a Christian. He was a staunch

Darwinist. And he based his entire system on the belief that there were superior races.

There were superior, not ethnic groups, which is a biblical concept, but a race, which is a concept that comes from the caucasoids and humanoids and all these other oids and these ape -like creatures, which were apes and which evolved into, from monkeys to ape -like creatures to man and this type of insanity.

And what happened was Darwin's belief got so predominant that it's everywhere today.

And by the way, this is the whole idea of the critical race theory, Marxism, socialism. It's all founded on the idea that there is no

God. There is only the better man, the perfect man. So Adolf Hitler, he says, you know what?

I believe that we are the perfect race, the Aryan race.

And that would be the blonde hair, blue eyes. I'm red, so I don't count, I guess. Of course, I'm also

Scottish, so I really don't count. So anyway, so here they are, they're teaching.

Hey, which is preacher norm? Hold on. No, Andrew, he did not take it out. He's back here in the back.

We're just discussing Whoopi Goldberg. I hope everything's going well, brother.

Yeah, praying for you. Yeah, we're praying for you. So anyway, what I was gonna say was, he had this idea that we are going to wipe out the inferior races and the biggest problem they're having is the

Jewish people. Well, why do you think they put the gold star on the

Jewish people or put a tattoo on them? Does anybody have an idea? It's okay.

Probably to ostracize them. No, it was because they couldn't tell who was who. I mean, you look at both of us, we're two white guys.

Well, I can't tell you what your ethnicity is because you're a white guy. Actually, I'm part African.

Well, okay. My dad came to Africa as a missionary's kid. Okay, well, there you go.

But you see what I'm saying? You see what I'm saying? I wouldn't know that because we're two people the same skin color.

So he has to come up with this ethnic idea and he has to get papers, he has to do all these things.

Well, here comes the big war. All these wars go on. At the end of it, do you know what he started doing?

He started killing German people because he said the experiment is over and we've proven that the

German people are not the superior race now by empirical evidence.

We've proven it. And that's why he started attacking his own people. Bet you didn't know that. Well, Whoopi Goldberg and whatnot, she said that she's thinking about quitting.

That would be a tragic. That's Andrew Rappaport. All right, if you're talking

Whoopi Goldberg and that you gotta allow your token

Jewish person in here. Get in here, man. I love it, I love it. Last week,

I made an error. I wanted to mention and did not.

Last Thursday, actually, when we were recording was the International Holocaust Remembrance Day.

And I wanted to start the show off with that and totally forgot. But Whoopi Goldberg and her comment about...

Yeah, and she doubled down and then tripled down. Then all of a sudden gave an apology. But the reality is it shows what

Whoopi Goldberg thinks. I mean, she defines racism as it can only be black people that can make this claim.

Yeah. Oh, this was one white group against another white group, so it can't be racism. Now, here's the simple thing.

She has demanded for everybody to be canceled. That doesn't...

Well, then look, fair is fair. She should just quit and cancel herself if she's gonna be consistent.

She should just say, okay, well, I said something far worse than Gina Carano did. And therefore, hey,

Gina Carano got canceled by the same company. I think that they should say, hey, cancel her. You know, but she's all upset because she got suspended for two weeks.

Two whole weeks she's gonna do what? Not be able to voice her Marxist agenda?

Yeah. That's a slap on the wrist compared to what they've done to so many others where they've tried to get them fired, where they can't get any work anywhere.

But now some people think, Anthony and I were talking about this. Some people think that, well, liberals don't have to be consistent.

That's wrong. They are being consistent. The problem that people have is they think that they're consistent in, or canceling people for what they say.

No, they're consistent in pushing the Marxist agenda. And anything that pushes it works for them.

They don't care what it is as long as they can push the Marxist agenda. That's all. And so they are consistent because the consistency isn't what they say, it's what they push.

That's right. You know what's amazing? It's like what I was saying is whoopies the test case and she pushed the narrative and eventually there are gonna be people come along that are gonna agree with her because you're

Jewish, you can't be a racist. This couldn't be a racist issue, blah, blah, blah. And they're gonna come out with another reason because those who don't learn from history are going to be doomed to repeat it.

It's gonna happen. Well, look, and I'm gonna get going because I really wanna hear you guys in discussion with Norm, but I'll just say this.

Can we please make 1984 fiction again? That would be great. Amen, amen.

Okay, so what we have for you tonight, that was just intro. So what we have for you tonight is

Preacher Norm is going to come in in a few minutes and talk to us. We wanted to lay some foundational work here and talk about the

Church of Christ, the history and some of the beliefs. Josiah has written a lot of very good information.

And brother, would you like to kind of start us out on maybe your background and your history and kind of what you know about the issues so that way we can put it out?

Yeah, the Church of Christ comes from the restoration movement. My family has really deep roots in that.

My grandfather, Ed Nichols, was a missionary for African Christian missions for 50 years.

He didn't hold to all of the restoration teachings. I don't think anybody holds to all of the restoration teachings.

But the Church of Christ started, again, with the restoration movement.

And that started about the 1800s, around the second

Great Awakening. I know Preacher Norm's gonna contradict me here, but if you want a really good history on the restoration movement itself,

I recommend In Search of Christian Unity. And it is written by people who are deeply interested in the restoration movement.

And again, they think that the Church of Christ goes all the way back to the apostles, where they teach exactly what the apostles did and they act exactly like the apostles did.

But in reality, they started with, I'll pull up my article here, because I can't remember his name off the top of my head.

Okay, we got Barton Stone, Barton Warnstone, and Thomas and Alexander Campbell.

Right, that was the restoration movement. 1832. Right, yeah, well, that's when they merged together.

Yeah, that's when they merged together. But the Barton Stone started teaching in the late 1700s, early 1800s.

Barton Stone was an anti -conviction of sin experience.

He believed that you need to try to convince somebody intellectually about their sin as opposed to trying to make them be convicted over their sin using the law.

Alexander Campbell taught against that as well. Barton Stone was anti -Trinitarian.

The book I mentioned, In Search of Christianity, said that he was more in line with Arius's teaching than any other kind of teaching.

So he denied the preexistence of Jesus Christ, and he said he was similar to God.

He also held that the atonement was to reconcile men to God and not God to men.

Okay. Alexander Campbell taught that salvation was by belief, and part of belief was in imagination, confession, repentance, baptism, and living a holy life.

He thought that disciples should call themselves disciples only, that they should hold weekly communion, there shouldn't be any church structure above the local congregation.

Thomas Campbell is held with these seven slogans here, no creed but Christ, no book but the

Bible, do Bible things in Bible ways, call Bible things by Bible names, where the scriptures speak, we speak, where the scriptures are silent, we are silent, in matters of faith, unity, in matters of opinion, liberty, and all things love.

Truth first, union afterward, and union only in truth, be true to the truth, oppose the error, but bear with humanity, back to Christ, back to the

Bible, back to Jerusalem. The only way to make progress in religion is by going back to the

Bible. Okay. And so that's the restoration movement.

So now the restoration movement, however, Campbell and Stone, maybe even

Alexander, I'm not sure exactly, but they came out of what, the

Baptist and the Presbyterian denomination, I believe. They first left the

Presbyterian denomination, and then Alexander and Thomas Campbell joined the

Baptist denomination, and then they were excommunicated over two debates with Pato Baptists, who disagreed with baptism, believers baptism.

I'm gonna pull up a quote from Alexander Campbell. It says,

I know it will be said that I've affirmed that baptism saves us. Well, Peter and Paul have said so before me.

If it was not criminal for them to say so, it cannot be criminal to me.

When Ann and I said unto Paul, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling upon the name of the

Lord, I suppose Paul believed him and arose and was baptized and washed away his sins. When he was baptized, he must have believed that his sins were now washed away in some sense that they were not before.

If his sins had been already in every sense washed away,

Ann and I says address would have led him to a mistaken view of himself, both before and after baptism.

Of course, Alexander Campbell also said this quote mentioned in my article.

He believed anyone is a Christian who believes in his heart that Jesus of Nazareth is a Messiah, the son of God repents of his sins and disobeys him and all things according to his measure of knowledge of his will.

Okay. One thing I noticed here is that the Barton Stones movement, anti -conviction of the sin experience, anti -Trinitarian and anti -penal substitutionary atonement.

It kind of goes to the idea that the work of Christ on the cross was simply to get rid of the old commandments, the old law and not for the salvation of your soul, that it wasn't substitutionary in its nature.

What I did notice is that Stone held that Christ was similar to God, but he wasn't preexistent.

Now, these issues are, one thing you can draw out of them is, when did these movements begin?

Around the 1800s. Now, they had a conflict as I recall with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

Saints, that they came out and what wanted to be called the

Church of Jesus Christ at first and then they had a conflict there. And I don't remember the quotes on that, but it was, they did have some type of a conflict as I recall.

Yeah. Well, the thing was, they were trying to come up with an evangelist.

The Association for Christian Baptists were trying to come up with an evangelist for their work.

And one of those evangelists was named Walter Scott. And the other guy that was in the picture wanted to be promoting the movement and he wasn't voted in as their evangelist.

So he decided to join the Church of Latter -day Saints and became the main evangelist for them.

Yeah. And so that's one thing I do find amazing is that you have so many different groups during those timelines that they come out of the body of Christ.

And they say, oh, well, we're the true church, we're the historic church. We have a new vision, new revelation, new teaching.

We have this new idea that we're supposed to be the ones that have the truth.

They all did it wrong. The Latter -day Saints, they say that they were given vision that theirs was the way and the truth.

You have the Jehovah's Witnesses, they have the way, they have the truth. And even the

Church of Christ comes out and they say, oh, well, we're gonna change that. And we're gonna say that the only thing that can save you is baptism plus obedience plus a few other things here.

So, and so we wanna, go ahead. I would like to say that Walter Scott, since he was the main evangelist,

I think this is why a lot of people in the Restoration Movement have their view of baptism.

Because according to Campbell, you couldn't be, you couldn't be, baptism was associated with salvation and it's what saved you, but he thought people could be saved who had a wrong view of baptism.

Yeah. But Walter Scott taught, and this is a quote from him. It says,

I have for some time thought that the waters of baptism must stand in the same position to us that the blood of sacrifices did to the

Jews. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins as Paul declares.

Yet when offered at the altar by the sinner, he had the divine assurance that his faith sins were forgiven him.

This blood was merely typical of the blood of Christ, the true sin offering to which it pointed prospectively.

And it seems to me that the water in baptism, which has no power in itself to wash away sins, now refers retrospectively to the purifying power of the blood of the

Lamb of God. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I want to do, I want to point out a couple of things that we're going to be working with here.

Let me pull this up. Let's see.

Talking about the church of Christ and their beliefs, 11 things that you need to know.

You know, they are different than Baptists now. Since they came out of the

Baptist denomination and the other denominations, Presbyterian and whatnot. Since they do have that history.

So there's going to be some crossover in some things that are believed. I mean, and there are some good things that we all would agree with, you know, as Pastor Andrew was trying to have that discussion last time when we were trying to have a good discussion about it.

The things that came out to me were, yeah, we believe that salvation is of the

Lord, that it is through, that we must hear the gospel. We must repent. We must believe.

I mean, those things we must do, but those are granted to us. The Bible makes it clear, as we talked about many times, that those issues are, you know, sola

Christos. Those are from Christ alone. It is God himself that saves us, not a work that we do.

God grants us repentance. God grants us faith, you know? And so when we repent, it's because God put it in us to repent.

He's regenerated our dead hearts and he's caused us to be born again through a living hope.

And so what Brother Andrew was talking about, and he's trying to explain, is that we're talking about, is salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, according to the scripture alone, to the glory of God alone?

Or is salvation an issue where we have to have, we include baptism and other things?

So the Church of Christ, just one of the things on one of these websites,

I mean, the thing is, they say we're not a monolithic denomination. So each one of us have our own church.

We're not affiliated. We say no creed but Christ, no book but the Bible, you know?

We all say no creed but Christ, which in itself is a creed. I just wanna point that out, because it's probably,

I don't know if it's gonna be said or not. So what we will put out here is, let's see,

I'm trying to find this here. We're gonna talk about the things that we need to do to be saved.

And I wanna bring Preacher Norm in here just a minute. And Brother John, if you want to, I'll bring you in as well.

And we can just have a polite discussion, hopefully. And if we can't, we'll just stop having a polite discussion and go another route and we'll go from there.

Okay, so let's go ahead and get started here. And Preacher Norm, welcome in.

Hey, well. Brother John. The first interaction I got tonight was, did

I chicken out? So if it can get politer, that would be okay. Well, how about this?

Are we Christians? No. Okay, well, that's how polite you're gonna be, okay.

Based on what evidence do you say we're not Christians? That you haven't done what the New Testament says to do to be a

Christian. How do you know? Well, John, because I've already talked with John and the other two, because of, well, for one,

I'm not sure the gentleman right above me, I'm not sure the name. Josiah. Josiah.

Josiah and Justin and John. So I could tell from the things that Josiah was saying that no, and Justin from last time, no.

And John from - So is that because the - The smugness coming out of you again? I haven't repented.

I haven't, I haven't believed that Jesus is a Christ, a son of living God. I haven't,

I don't have faith in him. I haven't repented. I haven't confessed and I haven't been baptized.

Pretty sure I've done all of those things. Not according to the

New Testament pattern. Prove it. How? I'm sorry, no, you're making a claim.

Prove it. Okay. No, no, no, no, no. No, I don't wanna. I want you to prove it.

Tell me, what is it that we haven't done? Well, you believed you were saved before you were baptized into Christ.

And then you were baptized as an outward show of an inward faith. Correct? Correct?

Or correct? Correct? So - Right? Baptism. I mean, if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong.

Are you saying that salvation, the salvation that the Lord offers? No, no, no. You asked me to answer your question.

I answered your question. So there's my answer. Because - I was baptized. Because you were baptized as an outward show of an inward faith.

Right or wrong? Okay. Correct or incorrect? I was baptized - Am I making a correct assertion about why you were baptized or am

I not? Listen to what Josiah was trying to say. I was baptized because I believe that Jesus is the

Christ. He commanded all believers to be baptized. And because I wanted to show

I repented on my sins. Okay. Because you wanted to show that you repented of your sins.

So you're actually being very careful of your language because you don't want to agree with me even though you just said the same thing

I said. No. We said that we've done all the things you're claiming.

But you've made the monolithic statement. So Josiah, you're saying that you were baptized in order to be saved.

Hold on. That's what you're saying. No, we're not going to do this. Hey guys, I'm coming in for a split second here.

Go ahead, Andrew. As a note, we did have last time the norm was on, a lot of people complained about talking over one another.

That's right. So Justin, I'm just going to ask if you could kind of control Mike so that we don't have that. So people can hear, because I'm kind of watching backstage and here, and I'm not able to follow with all you guys talking over each other.

So I'm just going to ask that you do that if possible. There we go. Thank you. And just for the people that were asking for an update with me,

I should have given that earlier. My mother is dying. There's no other way of putting it.

She isn't doing good. We couldn't, actually couldn't even talk to her today. Couldn't see her. So it was not a good day.

She's not doing well with the medication. We think that she just, it was one of these things where she was so excited that we were down there.

She tried to overdo it. And then next day would be horrible. And then we'd go to see her the next day. And so we're hoping that we got one more chance for all the kids to be able to see her before they leave.

And it'll be the last chance to say goodbye and for them to share the gospel with her. So we do appreciate prayers.

If we can go and see her before tomorrow morning. That's the prayer. So just a quick update.

Thanks, bye. Hi, brother. Definitely be praying for that, you know. Yeah, his mother's in obviously at the last stage of her life.

And we pray that he has a good, good, able to have a good witness with him and good conversation.

You know, Preacher Norm, I wanna ask you, what is it that you see here?

Maybe we can go through this list and you can tell me if you believe in these things.

We've laid them out. I just wanna make sure that this is congruent with what you're talking about.

You must first hear the word of God. Yes. Okay. You must believe and have faith in the word of God.

Yes. Okay. Then you must repent of your sins. That is turning away from your previous lifestyle and choosing

God's way. Yes. Okay. You must confess your faith in the Lord Jesus as the son of God.

Yes. I'm gonna ask you a clarifying question on that in just a minute. You have to be baptized in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ. Yes. Okay. And you finally, you have to live a faithful and holy life before as a

Christian. Yes. And those are the things you must do to be saved. Yeah, in a little overly simplistic listing of a way.

I mean, when you say, I forget how you said baptism, have to be baptized in the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ, I think is what you said. Yeah, but it's for a purpose. It's for the purpose of being added to the body of Christ by Christ, because that's what he said to do.

And so it is also part of the expression of faith that you believe the gospel.

It's God's power unto salvation. Therefore, I must do what it says in order to be saved.

And from last time, all of you agree, right along with that up until baptism.

And then for some reason, baptism is different from all of the other things that you all agree with.

But then when you - There is no for some reason, you know why. Right? You understand why. It's not for some reason.

That's kind of a mislead. Well, what Andrew said last time was that it's because we say that you have to do that to be saved.

Okay, but my point is - And so if you say that you have to do that to be saved, then somehow it's a work salvation instead of a expression of faith.

Okay. So what I'm saying to you is, first of all, it's not just for some reason. You understand what it is that Baptists teach, or you wouldn't be having this argument.

It's not just for some reason. We've actually had this discussion. Andrew had this discussion for four hours, three and a half hours, whatever it was.

He had this discussion with you explaining the issues of baptism. What I'm asking you is -

He didn't explain anything to me. Then you didn't listen to three and a half hours of the conversation.

Okay. Okay, well, and that's the point, is that when you listen to the other side of the conversation, it's not just saying, then just for some reason.

Now, here's what I asked you. Based off the Church of Jesus Christ, the Church of Christ doctrinal statements of belief on this church website -

Let me stop you. Let me just stop you real quick. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Okay. The way that you just said that, first you said

Church of Jesus Christ, then you changed it to Church of Christ, which I'm fine with. I'm fine with either one. And then you say, maybe not verbatim, but your statement of beliefs.

Okay, what exactly, what's the source? I asked you a question. I said,

I just pulled up a random church website. You say that you have no creed but Christ. You say that you don't believe in anything, no creedal statements, no denominational statements or anything else.

Well, no, that's not what that means. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't step over what I'm saying. You claim -

But if what you're saying is wrong, I shouldn't correct you? Okay, you claim last time - Okay, but go ahead. You claim last time, okay, let's do all the drama and let's get it all out of the way.

Now let's talk. You claim last time that you don't believe in denominations, that you only hold to the

Bible. You claimed all of these things. And yet your church came out of it to denominations.

That is incorrect. In Church of Christ, yes. That is, what you're saying is not true. What you're saying right there is not true.

It's historically evidenced. Anyway, they came out of the church - Historically evidenced from what? You're saying that I, the church that I belong to, the church that I preach for, that I came out of a conglomeration of two different denominations.

Did I say you personally? No, I didn't. I said the Church of Christ came out of the

Baptist and the Presbyterian denominations. So you're saying the

Church of Christ did not exist before that time? No, it didn't. Not as the traditional movement that you hold to.

I don't know what you're defining me as, but that history that you gave, which is an interesting part of religious history.

And I do enjoy church history and I enjoy religious history. So I have studied the Restoration Movement, but I did not come out of the

Restoration Movement. What I belong to did not originate in the Restoration. So maybe this could be a more productive conversation if you get rid of your preconceived notions about what

I am. Okay, wait a minute. Alexander Campbell held to the beliefs that you should be called disciples only.

Do you believe that? No. Okay. Yeah, that's the Restoration Movement. Okay. Taught salvation by faith or belief, confession, repentance, baptism, living a holy life.

Don't you? Don't you teach those things? Hold on. That's what the Restoration Movement was teaching.

And I just talked to you about it. You said, oh, I don't believe those things. But wait, so you're saying that the preaching of those things that you just listed originated with the

Restoration Movement? That nobody was preaching those things before the Restoration Movement? I'm telling you, hold on.

I'm telling you that - See, what you're saying doesn't make any sense. Norm, Norm, we're not on the hot seat.

You are. Okay. Okay, so I'm acting like it. Okay, but don't scream over people.

Don't scream over people. Don't scream over people, please. It's not gonna happen like last time.

Don't scream over people, please. Okay? You got people that are trying to hear the conversation and we're trying to have a logical, debatable conversation.

If you scream over people, nobody can have a discussion. Okay, so please listen. What I'm saying to you is this.

What I'm saying to you is this. Alexander Campbell, he stated these beliefs. And part of those beliefs were that these are what are necessary for salvation.

And those are, you must believe upon what is taught or you must hear the word of God.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's go one at a time. Okay, go one at a time. So that first one.

Do you agree or disagree with that first one? Okay, I'm asking, I'm gonna lay this out for you.

So I can't rebuttal or have a conversation? I'm laying these out for you. I'm laying these out for you.

I'll stick to yes or no answers. Well, I don't want you to say anything for a minute. I'll just lay this out for you. Alexander Campbell, all

I said was Alexander Campbell held to these things. Okay, that's what I said.

I didn't accuse you of holding anything. I guess if that's what he said, then that's what he held to. I don't know why you're asking me. I'll tell you why.

Because you hold to the same things he held to. And okay. Okay, so that's what

I asked you in response to you saying that about. So you're saying that I hold to those same things that Alexander Campbell held to.

That makes me what, a Campbellite? Okay. But what did you say in there that anybody would disagree with?

That you must be baptized to be saved. You must live a holy life. You didn't say that. Actually, I did say that earlier.

I've said that already twice now, or three times now. Well, yeah, the Bible teaches that you have to be baptized to be saved.

That is true. Okay, so back to the church of Christ and their doctrinal statement here. Cause I'm gonna jump right off.

There's no such thing as what you just said. Yeah, because what he's saying is, is that because they're not a nomination, there can't be any set theology for them.

We don't have a manual or a creed book or a catechism.

I mean, so that's what I'm asking. What exactly are you citing as your source for what is church of Christ doctrine?

Because as far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as church of Christ doctrine. I'm telling you, I'm a member of the church of Christ and I'm telling you, there's no such thing as church of Christ doctrine.

Okay, a creedal statement, just for those that need to know. A creedal statement is a group of statements that are of faith, that people believe that they say, we held to these truths as truth.

Okay, they say that we hold to these and so you have the apostles' creed, you have all these different statements, okay?

And even the scripture give us creedal statements. So you look at the Bible, you look at the historical statements based on things that have had to be fought out and bickered about and went through in church history, from the

Trinity issue or the, just baptism and many other issues.

What's the nature of salvation? Is the atonement, is it penal substitutionary atonement or is it just an example of living a life?

There's all these different statements that are made that are creedal statements. And it's what it is, is what we believe, statements of faith and things that we believe.

And so what I've done here is, thanks to Josiah who wrote the article, who's done the research on this, who has the research written out for us in articles and he's done it for a seminary degree and things like that, done this work.

He's went down and through and done a historical study of the 1800s, the statements and confessions of Alexander Campbell, of Warren Stone, Barton Warren Stone, Thomas and Alexander Campbell and what they held to and what they believed.

I just laid out that you, not all of them, but then there was different ideas here. But Alexander Campbell, he held to the fact that he taught that you must be taught the word of God, to believe the word of God, you must be taught the word of God, you must confess, you must repent of your sins, you must be baptized, live a holy life, weekly communion, intellectual evangelism and be elder led.

These are salvation issues, okay? I asked you, hold on. I asked you if according to this church website, would you agree with these statements?

You must be first, you must first hear the word of God. You said, yes. You must believe and have faith in the word of God.

You said, yes. You must repent of your sins and turn away from your previous lifestyle and choose

God's way. You said, yes. You must confess your faith in Jesus as the son of God.

And you said, yes. Okay, you have to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

And you said, yes. And then finally you must live a faithful holy life as a

Christian, okay? And those are the things you must do to be saved. Now, those six things are the six things that the

Alexander Campbell held to in his faith statement. And those are his creedal doctrinal statements.

The same thing you hold to, the same thing the other churches hold to. And so the point for you to say is, oh,

I'm autonomous and I don't believe any of these things. I don't have any of these creeds, no creed but Christ and all that stuff. You're making creedal statements based on Alexander Campbell's statements and his belief.

You don't have a monolithic set of beliefs. That's what you're saying is wrong. Well, I don't know what to tell you then because we just went through what you said.

I went through the 1800s teachings from Alexander Campbell. I went through other churches to show that everything that you're saying, you have a creedal doctrinal statement just like everybody else does.

You didn't just get it from the Bible. You've made up things that you have come up to from other men.

Okay, you're wrong. I know. Now do I get to ask a question? Go ahead. What would

I need to do for you and your audience to disavow myself from Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott, Martin Stone, John Smith?

What would I need to do here for you live on this program to disavow myself from them?

I do not claim them as my founder of anything. I do not claim them as a religious leader in anything that has to do with me at all.

So what more than that would I have to do to disavow myself from them?

How about calling us Christians? I can't do that because you're not.

Well, then that what makes you a cult. Okay, based on what?

I mean, I can take you to biblical passages for every single thing.

I'm not quotes from, you know, John Calvin or from, you know, Barton Stone or not quotes from them to Bible passages for every single thing

I believe. And I've made the public claim. Let me finish. I've made the public claim many, many times on my podcast, on other people's podcasts, everywhere.

If you can demonstrate to me where I'm doing something that I don't have

New Testament authority to do, my commitment is that I'll stop doing it like that or that I am doing something that I don't have

New Testament authority for, I'll stop doing it immediately or I'll start doing it if I'm not doing something that the

New Testament says I'm supposed to be doing that I'm not, I'll start doing it because all I want to do, my only agenda at all,

I have no organizational allegiance or loyalties or, you know, organizational binding or whatever, you know, however you want to say it.

I don't have any of those things. So you're not accountable. My only aim, let me finish. My only aim at all is to just be what the

New Testament says I'm supposed to be, okay? So if you show me where I'm not doing that,

I'll change. Show me in the New Testament where I'm supposed to be what you're saying I'm supposed to be and I'll be there.

But if you can't, I won't. You tell us what we're not doing. I just did. Okay, well, here's my sentiment, okay?

I don't have any, I don't feel like I have any affiliations with, you know, anybody other than the

Bible. That's my only authority is the Bible. I don't care about creeds.

I don't care about what John Calvin taught. I don't care about any of that. I just care about what the

Bible says and according to its original manuscripts and teaching.

And you and I obviously come to completely different conclusions on belief, baptism, salvation.

Yeah. And the only thing I can accredit that for is your traditions that you have in your movement.

I didn't call it a domination, by the way. I called it a movement. Okay. Yeah. And see, now

I'm just gonna point something out for you. At no time did we sit there and say that you're not a

Christian, okay? Okay. What I will say to you is that last week when you and I were talking,

I told you that I believe that you're being very smug and you owned it. You said, absolutely, you're a very smug person.

I'm okay with that. The absolute definition of being a smug person, if you go look it up, is a proud or an arrogant man.

Okay. Now, sir, I'm gonna say to you is this. Now, let's listen to me. If you say you're a preacher.

Yes. Then what does Titus and Timothy tell you that you need to be about and how you should be behaving and acting?

I mean, man, you're claiming things that you cannot know. You're saying that just because I differ with you on baptism that that means that I can't be saved.

And oh, by the way, let's make sure we add this because it's not just baptism. You don't just say baptism.

You say that you have to live a holy life. Let's say a faithful and holy life as a Christian. That's the key.

But wait a minute. So you're living a faithful life? Yes. That doesn't mean he's not sinlessly perfect.

We should probably ask him. Let's make sure that we see that because I wanna hear the definition of what a faithful person is.

Are you saying that you're sinless? First John 1, seven says that the blood of Jesus Christ continue if you study in the original language that the blood of Christ continually cleanses me of every sin.

So I'm sinless, not because I don't sin but because I have the cleansing of the blood of Christ to wash away those sins.

First John. And the blood of Christ isn't baptism, right?

The blood of Christ is contacted in the act of faithful obedience to Christ.

So not baptism. Baptism is part of that, yes. I mean, if a person just goes and gets baptized, like you all claim that you have been baptized and I would show by the

New Testament pattern that you didn't do what the New Testament refers to as being baptized. And so baptism is the point at which the

New Testament says not me, not Campbell, not Scott, not whoever is when the

New Testament says that a person is joined with Christ. Now, all

I can do as somebody who desires faithfulness to God, not that I, even

Paul said that he hadn't attained to that. And so who would I be to claim that I have?

So of course I pray God's forgiveness every day because I know I stumble, I make mistakes.

We all fall short of the glory of God. And so - So you're not claiming sinless perfection.

That's good. That's good. Of course, that's absurd to even think that that would be a possibility.

No, no, it's not absurd. It's a question based on your statement. It's an absurd question. Can you reach your salvation after baptism?

Yes. When? When you, what the word that is for what the

New Testament teaches is apostasy, to apostatize, which doesn't mean that you make a mistake or that you stumble or that you say a bad word when you cross the center line and almost get in a wreck.

That's not what apostatizing means. Apostatizing means that you leave the faith, you're gone.

You make the decision, I'm not gonna do this anymore. Okay. That's apostatizing.

Okay, so you're saying that you can, you bring yourself in by water baptism and you bring yourself out by -

No, I didn't say that. Don't make me say things I didn't say. Okay, I'm trying to find out what you did say because you've said so many things and I'm trying to figure it out.

One thing I wanna ask you is, in context of Jesse Heller, she asked the question in John 6, 28 and 29, what must

I do to do the works of God? These are the works of God that you believe in him that has sent you. There's no idea of water there, okay?

There's no idea of water there. So that's the only passage in the Bible on salvation? But you need to do a passage and exegete the passage, not run all over the place.

So I'm gonna ask you a question. Based on the Gospels, can you show me where the

Gospels tell us about being baptized? Let's just start there.

Let's just start, you know, we've got four books. So can you tell me about where the Gospels talk about - Sure, I mean, yeah,

Jesus was baptized by John. John tried to stop him and say, I need to be baptized by you because he recognized that Jesus was sinless and didn't have any sins to remit.

And Jesus said, permit it to be so for now, for what? To fulfill all righteousness. So Jesus wasn't obeying it for the remission of sins.

Jesus was obeying it because it was a command from heaven, right? If he had not obeyed it, he would not be fulfilling all righteousness.

He wouldn't be obeying the command of God. So where's that command from heaven? I need to see that Bible verse. Are you serious?

I'm asking you a question. You said it's a command from heaven to be baptized. Don't do that. Wait. So -

I'm Mr. John, I don't know what you're saying. So the baptism of John, was it from heaven or from men?

Didn't Jesus ask that question to the Pharisees? Okay, so I'm asking you a question. So was it from heaven or was it from men? Which was it?

I'm asking you a question. Okay. Okay, I'm asking you a question. So when

John the Baptist - I don't know what you're saying, okay. Say Matthew chapter three. I mean, okay. Matthew chapter three.

When John the Baptist was commanding baptism, was that a command from heaven?

Isn't that what - John is preaching on baptism. Okay. Okay. So as John is preaching on baptism, where did they come up with the understanding of baptism?

John's preaching? Okay. So what you're saying is that baptism is something that John initiated.

If this is how this is gonna go, then, I mean, what's the point? No, I mean, are you seriously telling me that you don't know that John the

Baptist was preaching a baptism for their mission of sins? And Jesus asked the

Pharisees, Jesus asked the Pharisees, is it from heaven or from men? And they wouldn't answer him.

So, you know, I mean, what is it you want me to show you? Was the baptism of John salvific?

Yes. So was Jesus saved at his baptism? Jesus stated the purpose for him being baptized was to fulfill all righteousness.

So - With a yes or no question. Therefore, if Jesus had not been baptized, it would have been what?

Unrighteous? I think that's a fair assessment of the text.

Okay, so here's my point. And the reason I'm asking you this. Now, I mean, the reason

I went to the baptism of John with Jesus was because you said in the gospels, well, yeah,

John was preaching baptism in the gospels. Jesus and his disciples were preaching baptism in the gospels.

Then it said that Jesus' disciples were baptizing even more than John's were baptizing.

And then Jesus gave the baptism of the great commission after his resurrection and sending out his apostles.

He gave them the great commission to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the

Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe what sort of things I've commanded you. And lo, I am with you even to the end of the age.

So Jesus commanded baptism. Mark 16, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

I mean, there's from the gospel. All right, so I muted you because we're not gonna railroad over top of everything everybody's trying to say.

Of course, I muted you because I told you we're not gonna have this screaming match. I'm trying to have a conversation with you a little bit at a time.

Now, are you ready to have the conversation or not? Okay, if John's baptism was salvific, then why did

Jesus Christ die on the cross? If it was already for salvation.

Look, you're not interested in having an honest discussion here. I mean, these questions are, I mean, what is it you're asking?

Just to ask you the question, why did Jesus Christ die on the cross? Just ask the question, answer it. Why did

Jesus die on the cross? He died for our sins. I mean, I guess I understood that I made some assumptions last time and we don't necessarily use the same vocabulary, but I didn't think it was this bad.

Okay, well, let's use some vocabulary then. Go ahead, Josiah, you wanna say something? I think the thing is what we're trying to find out,

Norm, is how you get your definition of Christian baptism and what it means and why we're not saved because we were baptized wrong.

Apparently, my being immersed in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit wasn't good enough. So how are we not saved?

You know, I have this conversation with people pretty frequently, right?

And the question comes up, well, I have been baptized. And my response to that is the same thing

I basically said to you guys. Do you believe that you were saved before you were baptized?

I mean, yes or no? Yeah, I believe I was saved in Jesus Christ. Okay, well, then you could not have been baptized for the

New Testament stated purpose of baptism, which is for salvation because you believe you were already saved, which is wrong.

Okay, so - I guess the thief on the cross wasn't saved. All those passages on faith are meaningless and repentance are meaningless.

Okay, you're trying to read the Bible like an encyclopedia, like you go to one passage and that's everything the

Bible says on that subject when actually what you have to do is gather all of the information, put that information together and then come to a conclusion.

So here's a question, and I'm legitimate questions just so that we can be clear on this.

If somebody comes to you and they profess faith in Christ and you baptize them and they die immediately, are they going to heaven?

They're saved, yeah. No, I mean, I know you guys don't believe in Hades and paradise and Tartarus in Hades and you believe people will go straight to heaven or straight to hell when they die.

So just for the sake of argument, we'll just say they would have died saved, yes. So there is no false conversion.

Okay, long as we know that for sure, okay. I mean, you're asking me, I can't know that person's heart.

You're just asking me based on - Well, based on what you just said, there is no false conversion. There is no false conversion.

No, you said there's no false conversion. I didn't say that. You asked me if somebody comes to me and my assumption of what you were asking me is if they sincerely obey the gospel,

I baptize them and they die immediately after, would they be saved? And yeah, if they sincerely obeyed the gospel, they would be saved.

I can't know another person's heart. So yeah, I've had people do that where they got baptized thinking that they would get some benefit out of it.

And when that didn't happen, they immediately apostatized. I can't know that.

How could I possibly know that? See, the problem is you've already told us what's in our hearts.

You've already explained to us what's in our hearts. See, what we said is that - You've told me what's in mine, smugness and pride and arrogance.

No, no, no, no, no, no. I pointed it out and you agreed to it. So I pointed out and I gladly pointed out because you are very smug and you're very arrogant and you do not listen.

And you gladly agreed to it until Andrew pointed out what it meant. And then you got angry at him.

Oh, you called me prideful. And no, I don't equate smugness with being prideful.

Well, the dictionary does. So we'll be okay with that. Okay. Okay, then I was wrong. I shouldn't have agreed to smug.

Maybe cocky or smart alecky or however you want to say it. But I don't think that's the same thing as prideful.

All right. So a couple of questions, I guess we need to kind of put this together.

1 Peter 3, 21. Now, so let's go look over here. What does it mean that corresponding to that, baptism now saves you?

Just as Noah and his family were saved from a sin sick world through the water of the flood.

So people are saved today, in the New Testament dispensation through the water of baptism.

Okay. That's why he says there is also an anti -type that does now save us or you.

Baptism, not the removal of the filth of the flesh. It's not taking a bath. It's not the removal of the filth of the flesh.

It's the appeal to God for a good conscience. Okay. So what

I always understood that passage to mean and just going into the nitty gritty of it, it seems like Peter's saying we're saved by the confession that would have taken place in baptism.

The good appeal to God for a good conscience. Not that, I don't think it equates the two.

So it makes a distinction. Yeah, if you look at that, when he says not the filth of the flesh, but the appeal, the

New King James is what I use. And so I quote it. The more correct translation would be appeal.

I think you would agree with that, that it's making the appeal to God for a good conscience.

Okay. Okay. Because it is the expression of faith in God to save you based on humble submission to his will.

And you can't do that prior to baptism. No, because you haven't obeyed him prior to baptism.

You have to have the water. So the water is what saves you. No. Okay. The water is not what saves you.

No, the water is not what saves you. It's the expression of faith toward God that saves you.

Okay. And you can't do that outside of the water. So it's the...

Okay. So everybody knows something now. Yeah. And see, the point is, as it says here.

Because God specified the element, not me. I didn't specify the element for baptism. I mean, we know people were baptized into the law of Moses or metaphorically speaking, completely immersed under the authority of Moses by him leading them through the

Red Sea. So their baptism is used metaphorically and it's used for the suffering of Christ. That Christ was going to be completely immersed in suffering, right?

Because that's what the word baptism means is immersion. And so, when you look at the element that is specified for great commission baptism, it's water.

And so I didn't specify that. God did. That actually did not. So it's not the name of the

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It's the water that... That's the element. It's not the teachings of Christ.

To obey the command to be baptized requires water, yes. So the point is here, is 1

Peter 3 .21 tells us that the water is not what saves you. Not the removal of the dirt.

That is not what it says. Absolutely is. No, no. It's saying corresponding to that. Now, hold on. What's it corresponding to?

It's corresponding - The water of the flood. No, it's corresponding to the circumcision of the heart.

It's corresponding to that circumcision. It's a spiritual circumcision because it goes back and talks about the fact that Abraham believed

God and it was accredited to him for righteousness. It was the outward sign of circumcision that he actually proclaimed that shows that he was part of the group.

But it wasn't circumcision that brought him into faith. It's not baptism - Wait, wait, wait.

I thought we were in 1 Peter 3. I said 1 Peter 3 .22. By the way, we also started going backwards a little bit and reading backwards as well.

We started looking at all of those things as we started discussing it. What were you saying about Abraham here?

Called the precopy. Say that again.

You were saying something about Abraham being saved by faith in this passage? Abraham believed

God and it was accredited him for righteousness. What was that about? It wasn't about -

Hold on. What was Abraham given? Was he given the circumcision? And this is talking about corresponding to that.

That's, I mean - We're talking about the fact - I thought we were looking at 1 Peter 3. I am, but I went back to what we were talking about with Abraham.

And as we were talking about these issues with Abraham, I'm sorry, excuse me. I mean, if you got

Abraham in there somewhere, point it out, because I'm not seeing it. Okay.

And 1 Peter 3 .6 talks about Abraham. 1

Peter actually starts going all the way through. Yeah, because I said, we need to look at the context of the entire thing is what

I was talking about. Because it's not just one verse. You see, you accused us of only doing one verse. We were doing actually the verse and then going out and looking at the whole point.

Okay, there's Abraham. Right, right. Sarah called him Lord. Okay, so that goes to the context of - Okay, so the whole point that I'm making here, you can giggle all you want and be as disrespectful as you want.

That's because it's, I mean, it's - So the whole point we're making is - You're talking about grasping at straws. Wow. So no, actually what we were -

The context is not grasping at straws. That's how you interpret scripture, reading it in context. All right, yeah,

I'm with you. Go ahead. So yeah, connect this context. I would love to see that. Yeah, let's, okay.

Actually, my context for you is, you're saying that baptism saves you.

And I went back and I asked you about John's baptism. Was it for salvation? And you said it was.

You disannulled the need for Christ. No. Drew, thank you so much.

You came in, I appreciate you, brother. He says, Norm, he's doing what you said that he doesn't do. He's taking the

Bible as a whole and he's putting it together. And I know it's funny - So what I want to know is how does, as Sarah obeyed

Abraham, calling him Lord, whose daughters you are, if you do good and are not afraid with any terror, how that connects to 1

Peter 3 .21. Okay. We're talking about Abraham and the way that he -

Okay. Excuse me. I'm listening. I'll tell you what. I'm not giggling and laughing.

I'm trying to actually have a conversation with you. Okay. Dude, seriously. I mean, I'm trying very hard because you're being very disrespectful and condescending.

And I'm telling you, I'm not going to have much more patience for it. I'm trying to have a conversation with you and -

I'll try to respond being disrespected and belittled without being disrespectful. I'm sorry.

Go ahead, Smith. Oh, you keep talking. I gotta stop my camera and mic for a second.

Okay. Got you. So my point to you is this. When we go back to John and we come up through these passages, now we started talking about, we started talking about -

I don't think he muted his mic. We may get a hot mic moment here in just a second. We're okay. We don't have a hot mic.

I took care of it. So anyway, so we talked about John and his baptism.

Right. Okay. And if you look at John and his baptism, I asked you, was his baptism for salvation?

Where did it come from? It's from heaven. Okay. And it was salvific. Yes. Then what was the need in Christ?

What he said, to fulfill all righteousness. He acknowledged it was a command from heaven and so he obeyed it.

Okay. But he did not define or explain what to fulfill all righteousness.

Technically meant, are you saying that when he was baptized, that he needed to be baptized?

Or were you saying that he was there - For the purpose that he stayed. Now I'm just saying - I don't know.

I'm asking you. I'm just saying what he said. I'm not adding anything to it, taking anything away from it, trying to twist it or manipulate it.

I'm just saying what he said. When John tried to stop it, when John tried to stop him,

Jesus said, because John recognized, well, you don't need to be, this is a baptism for their mission. You don't have any sins, so you don't need to be baptized.

Jesus said, in answer to John's confusion over why he was being baptized, Jesus said, permitted to be so for now in order to fulfill all righteousness.

I'm quoting it. Okay. That's what Jesus said. That's all I know about why Jesus got baptized.

Did Jesus have sins that needed to be remitted? No. Well, then why did he get baptized? All I know is what he said, in order to fulfill all righteousness, which the way that I understand that, and I think

I'm correct in my understanding on it, is that means it was a command from God, and as a command from God, it must be obeyed or else it's unrighteous.

So if Jesus had not been baptized, he would have been guilty of unrighteousness.

Okay. There's something going on back there.

John, you're like, did you want to say something, brother? I was going to point out that,

Norm, have you ever considered that maybe he needed to be baptized because it's part of the priestly duties and requirements for Christ to be a priest, to be baptized?

Oh, you're talking about the ceremonies of washing and dedication for the

Levitical priesthood, and Jesus is not a priest after the order of Aaron, but of Melchizedek.

So, no, I have never made that connection because those don't pertain to Jesus' priesthood.

So, okay. Here's the problem, man. Hey, let's take a break here and talk about our sponsor.

Yeah, let's do that for a moment. I'm going to tell you something. This is one of those things that give you a headache when you're trying to talk to people about these issues.

And as Josiah pointed out, we kind of need to take just a minute.

Everybody sit back and relax a little bit. And if you don't have a pillow, take your pillow out and take a good strong rest.

We do want to say thank you to MyPillow and for their sponsoring. Their phone number is 1 -800 -873 -0176.

And if you go to promo code, if you go on there and call in and ask them for a nice comfy pillow or whatever else you want to ask for, all their great products, and tell them about the

SFE as a promo code, you can get yourself a MyPillow and fluffy slippers and blankets and all kinds of stuff like that.

And so that when you're sitting here trying to talk to people about baptism and all these other intimate details, you can just sit back and enjoy the pillow like John's doing right now and just is hanging out.

So by the way, as we're taking just a moment, we want to say that also, if you want to look deeper into these issues, we have a resource for Logos Bible software and you could go to bit .ly

slash S -F -E Logos. And if you go on there, that'll take you to logos .com

and it is Strive for Eternities. They help us out, they talk to us or they work with us and with Andrew.

And I believe maybe still going with the five free books. Is that right, Josiah? I bought

Logos a year ago and there was like a break between there. So I didn't get those five free books.

Oh man, oh man. Oh, by the way, I'm just gonna throw it out there. If you want more information, go to karm .org.

That'll give you all the information you ever wanted about anything you ever needed to know about. And also look us up on strivingforeternity .org.

Give us your support, your friendship, your love and tell other people about us and we'd love to have you come in anytime.

So - We have lots of articles on there. One about baptism. That's very helpful in understanding

Acts 2 .38. Would you mind tell us about that just for a moment? I'm gonna pull something up while you're talking about it.

So, all right, if you don't mind, I appreciate it. Done my article. Okay, it's entitled what to do about Acts 2 .38

or it's also entitled Ice, Ice Baptism.

I decided to do one of those things they did back in the 1800s and give it two titles, just for fun. All right.

And I talked about the teaching that the restoration movement typically gives that they typically interpret it, repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the

Holy Spirit. They also believe that one can lose their salvation after being baptized.

So I also said it's really the worst of all worlds. So the main problem that that interpretation usually gives is that it seems to go against the main teaching of Acts that salvation is by repentance and faith.

And yes, baptism is followed by all of those but it seems like the emphasis is always on repentance and faith.

Got you. For by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2 .8 -9 says, for by grace you have been saved through faith and it's not yourselves, it's the gifts of God, not our works, so that no one may boast.

So I also noted that there's no contradictions in scripture and when there is an apparent contradiction between two tasks, the contradiction is only in the mind of the beholder.

That's right. So there's always kinds of different ways of making sense of this text.

And one is to understand how ice is handled, the Greek word for usually in or into.

But it has a semantic range of in, into, toward, to, until, up to, for, or et cetera.

And the context surrounding this preposition determines the meaning. So if you look at the context, the context is repent and be baptized.

Every one of you for the forgiveness of sin and the gift of the

Holy Spirit. So there's other ways if you don't even accept, if you don't accept that understanding that it's more of a passive one where it's like for or because of.

Baptism could be spiritual because water is not the only element mentioned with baptism. John mentions

Jesus baptizes with fire and the Holy Spirit, fire referring to hell and the

Holy Spirit referring to when one believes and is saved. There's also another important thing to point out is the word metanoisate is the main verb connected with ice.

Therefore everything else, including baptizo is subordinate to repentance.

And so, and another thing to point out is the historical context behind it that the idea of baptism incorporates the spiritual reality and not just the symbol.

The baptism was one where one repented in the ancient

Jewish world where they confessed their sins and promised to forsake and follow God's law.

And so, with all these different options, I think the best combination is

Todd Friel's Handling of Ice which shows that it is more reflexive.

It is, baptism is a witness to the repentance. It shows that you've repented and it follow, repentance being the main verb means that baptism leads to, or repentance leads to baptism, forgiveness of sins and the gift of the

Holy Spirit. And so, that's the majority of my article.

But I think, preacher Norm probably has quite a few problems with it. Actually I've got a -

He'd probably agree with all of it. Actually I've got a article on my website, normfields .com.

Just go to normfields .com and look up the post on the

Baptist use of ice. I just gave it one name, the Baptist use of ice. Okay, everybody looked that up and compare those two along with the scripture.

And it's amazing that one thing that we gotta think about is it's not the ideas that each one of us has.

It's what the scripture says. And it's the divine authority. So, one thing that needs to be said here is either

Norm's position is correct and everybody that's not in the church of Christ is not saved and going to hell, or our position is correct.

And those that repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. And those that have heard by grace, grace through faith in Christ, those will be saved.

And so one of these is true. The problem comes when you add anything to salvation.

The Bible says in Galatians, talks about the idea of the Judaizers who wanted to add things to salvation.

Now in defense, Norm believes, he said it many times, he believes that baptism is part of the act of faith.

We believe that salvation is of the Lord alone, that it is something that the

Lord does. And I don't. So you're saying, I don't believe that. No, I didn't say that.

I didn't say that. What we're saying is it's not through baptism. It is by faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ. Now - That's why I said what I said earlier about your baptism not being right.

Well, but let's get back into the discussion here. One thing that I wanna ask you is, apart from John's baptism, are there other places than the gospels where you're gonna see these as, that you must repent and be baptized for salvation?

Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus in John chapter three would be an example. And the parallel to that in Ephesians chapter five would be the washing of water by the word.

Okay, but that's not the gospels. Born of water in the spirit, right? Okay, so - But let's stick to the four gospels.

I mean, we got plenty of book material to talk about in the four gospels. And I'm asking for a reason because we're talking about the life of Christ during his time, right?

Yeah. Okay. So in several passages, we see like, say for example,

Zacchaeus. Okay. We see, for example, in the passages dealing with Zacchaeus. There's no idea, no evidence of baptism there, but he says that today salvation has come to your house.

Right, referring to himself as the source of salvation. Okay, but I thought

John's baptism was salvific. There's a fundamental flaw in your whole perception of...

Let's see, you're going back, you're talking about Zacchaeus, talking about the thief on the cross.

Would you do me a favor and read Acts 20, 28? Well, I'm trying to stick to the four gospels for -

Okay, well, read Acts 20, 28 and see if that applies to the four gospels. Can we stick to the four gospels and talk about the life of Christ?

And I'm just asking if we can go for those. I mean, you're not wanting to deal with the text of scripture.

You want to go to another place. I want to go a different place. I want to go over here. I want to go over here. I'm just trying to say -

So why is it you want to stay? What's the purpose? Because I want to ask you - What is your purpose for limiting my response to the gospels?

Because you got plenty of material for one, because our Lord Jesus Christ - Okay, yeah, I don't have a problem being limited to the gospels, but I'm just asking why.

Let me finish. Because our Lord is the one that started here in John, baptism, and then we go through and we see him talking about salvation to people that he did not command them to be baptized, such as Nicodemus.

We see others. We see the woman at the well. He did not tell them, you must be baptized.

He didn't tell them that. What he talked to them about is repentance. He talked to them about their sin.

He explained their sins. And then she said, there's one that's told us everything I've ever done. And the whole entire community comes out, however many that may be, an exaggeration maybe, it probably wasn't everybody, but let's say it's quite a few people, right?

And so they come out and there is no discussion there in those contexts of repent and be baptized.

You must be baptized. Let's go get the water. Let's dig a hole. Let's get in the trough or whatever else.

There's the idea of your sins are what is separated you from God.

You're at enmity with God. You need to repent. I am the Savior. Now, one thing

I wanna say here is, and that's the reason I'm pointing these things out, but there are passages where he says, repent and be baptized, correct?

Jesus? Yeah. There are those passages. In those exact words,

I'm not sure off the top of my head. So here's my question.

We can go through all these, but I do have a question. John said it in Matthew 3, 11.

John said it in Mark 1, 4. And so, yeah, that would be the two examples in the gospels by John.

So you have those in the gospels. Can you go to Luke 23, 38? And this will start there.

This is talking about the crucifixion. Okay. Okay. So one of the criminals was there.

He's hurling abuses at him. He says, are you not the Christ? Save yourself. Okay. But the other answered in Luke 23, 38, he rebuked him and said, do you not even fear

God? Now, originally he started out, you know, going against Jesus. Okay.

Was he saved or not? Which one? The one that says, verse 41, and we indeed are suffering justly for we are receiving what we deserved for our deeds.

But this man - That sounds like a penitent believer to me, yeah. Oh, so he's penitent. I mean, that's a pretty clear expression that he recognizes that he's receiving the due reward for his deeds.

So yes. Okay. So he's repentant, right? He's trusted Christ as Savior.

And as a result, what happened? Jesus said, assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.

So the man's saved. Yes. I have no - Without baptism. No doubt. Pardon? Without baptism.

I have no idea whether he was baptized or not. So he was on the cross. He was nailed to the cross.

Hold on, let me get this right. And you don't know if he was baptized or not. Right. I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to just laugh out loud like I did, but - But you did. I didn't mean to, but I did.

I couldn't help it, because that right there - But you did, yeah. Are you being smug, Justin? No, I'm in shock that you would actually say that.

Let me show you something. If you'll give me a minute with the text, you can put it up on the screen if you want to.

Okay, let's do that. Give me a minute with the text, and I'll show you why I said that. Go ahead. There it is.

You're talking about striving for eternity ministries quote there, that's what you deserve. But this meant, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

Now, the interaction between the thief on the cross and Jesus makes it absolutely irrefutably clear that this was not his first exposure to Jesus.

Okay, you're speaking in the white spaces there in the Bible where there is no conversation. No, no.

Yeah, you definitely are. He said, for we received the due reward for our deeds.

That sounds like penitence to me, but this man has done nothing wrong. How did he know that? How did the thief on the cross know that Jesus was somebody who had done nothing wrong?

You're asking me to speculate on something. No, no. I'm asking you. You're speculating.

You're the one that's doing the speculating. So I just want to point this out. I'm dealing with the text. No, I'm saying I don't know whether he was or not.

You're saying, you know, for sure he wasn't. No, I'm saying I know he was saved.

You claim that he was saved. Baptized, come on. Okay, where's his baptism? We're talking about baptism, right? Where's his baptism?

I'm saying the way you present the thief on the cross and, oh, I'm going to be saved like the thief on the cross. Well then climb up on a cross next to Jesus and ask him to save you.

It'll, you know, it'll work. That's a strong man. That's an absolute strong man. Designed to wreck the argument.

What I'm saying is the way that you present the thief on the cross is that this is his first encounter with Jesus.

No, he knew that Jesus was innocent. Then he said, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.

Where did the thief on the cross learn anything about a kingdom? Excuse me, let me ask you a question. What passage of scripture do you have?

Sure, why not? Go ahead. What passage of scripture do you have other than Luke 23, 41 to 43, that tells us that this thief on the cross had any conversation with Jesus Christ before him being on the cross?

I don't need another passage because I have this one right here. No, you speculate. That's all you're doing is speculating. No, I'm saying that the thief on the cross knew that he deserved to be there because he was a thief.

The thief on the cross knew that Jesus was innocent, that Jesus hadn't done anything deserving of death.

The thief on the cross knew that Jesus was going to be coming into a kingdom, even though, now get this.

Jesus is dying on the cross right next to this thief. And the thief asked him, remember me when you come into your kingdom?

That sounds to me like he had heard something about the death, burial and resurrection preached. That sounds to me like he had heard something about the kingdom.

Now, I'm not speculating. I'm reading what's right there in the text. He knew about the kingdom. He knew that Jesus was going to be able to remember something after his crucifixion.

He knew that he was guilty and Jesus was not guilty. So go ahead and mute my mic before you let me get through the text and then we'll go from there.

But you're gonna do another straw, man. And see, the whole point here is this. This is the same point as last time.

I'm showing you stuff that is right there in the text and you're saying, no, it's not there. Don't look at it.

Don't look up. It is absolutely not in the text. And here's the problem. He had old Testament truth.

He knew that God the Messiah was coming. He knew that he was dead in trespass and sin. He knew that he was guilty by the standard of the law because he was a thief and a liar.

He knew those things and he knew he deserved the punishment of almighty God. He knew it just like you know it.

He knew it just like I know it, okay? He knew it. But because this man was dying on the cross and the signet on top of him was, this is the

King of the Jews. And the signet on top of him was saying, this is the Messiah, the King of the Jews.

That's how he knew what was in there. This man didn't have to meet Jesus walking down some road that you don't find in the scripture.

So that's how he knew Jesus was gonna have a kingdom after he died on the cross. Because it's in the scripture in the

Old Testament. I don't know if you've read the Old Testament before, but it's in there. And we know certainly all the Jews had a perfect understanding of what was there in the

Old Testament about the Messiah, right? Just because they didn't have a perfect understanding, that doesn't mean that they didn't have a clear understanding.

What you're doing is you're trying to argue from the white spaces. No, I'm saying it doesn't matter either way whether he was baptized or not.

Actually, it does matter. Because Jesus was still on earth and he didn't give sins. Because the only way you can talk about salvation through baptism is you must demand that he had to have been baptized.

And you have no - No, I don't really care whether he was or not. It doesn't matter. Because Jesus looked at him and said, this day you'll be with me in paradise.

So whether he was baptized or not is irrelevant. And upon that same authority - I'm pointing out that you can't say that he wasn't.

And you laughed when I said that. And then I pointed out where he very definitely had prior knowledge of who

Jesus Christ was. It's right there. He very obviously already knew who

Jesus was. He calls him Lord. Why would he call Jesus Lord if he didn't know who

Jesus was? So it's right there. You're putting in your own doctrine. You can't read it.

You can't see it because of your preconceived notions. No. Actually, I just read it.

I put it in context. I gave it to you according to the scripture. You're not gonna say that I can't read it because it's right here in front of everyone.

It's really tragically pathetic. I know it's pathetic. You added to the truth of the word of God by saying, oh, it had to have been something that nobody sees, but all this had to happen.

You're saying a bunch of stuff I didn't say. And I'm not gonna let you say a bunch of stuff that I didn't say.

You've been doing that all night. That's another straw man. And it's actually not true.

I have been dealing with the text and you have not been dealing with the text. That's a good thing about streaming is because it's there.

Oh, it's there. It's there. You probably should just go ahead and pull it up and look at it because we were dealing with the text.

And the reason I'm dealing with this text is this. You said this man was saved.

Yeah. I mean, it's very obvious he was. Jesus said, you'll be with me at the same paradise. Without water. Sure. Without baptism.

I can go along with that. Right. It doesn't matter whether he was baptized or not. That's what I'm saying. Okay. Thank you.

Then we're all Christians by God's standards. Thank you, everyone. I wanna thank you all. So Jesus looked at you on the cross next to him and said, this day you'll be with me in paradise because you're still here.

I'm sorry, but you lost the standard. Actually, I think the scripture, mine were nailed to the cross with Christ.

My sins are nailed to the cross with Christ. It is amazing to me how biblically illiterate people who claim to know the

Bible actually are. I mean, it's really astonishing. Okay.

I didn't even know it was this bad. You're saying that this pastor does not know the scriptures?

That's what I'm absolutely saying. He doesn't know the scripture yet. Wow. Okay. One thing

I wanna point out, we're gonna take a few minutes. I wanna look at some of the comments that have been rolling in here because we've had a lot of people making a lot of comments and really good discussions back here on the side.

Marcy Oliver, thank you. You pointed out exactly what I'm saying is that this is a tragic cultic behavior.

The scripture doesn't say what it says, and that's exactly right. Humble Clay, thank you so much for talking about the smug fruit that's coming out.

There is so much discussion here that I just wanna bring out some of these things that some of you wonderful people have been talking about.

I do wanna say something for Melissa. I can't find it, but Melissa, who's a faithful, wonderful sister in Christ, apparently she fell and got hurt.

And I saw that, and I just want you to know that I'm praying for you. And I pray that you'll be okay and that God will protect you, that he'll heal you up and that you'll be able to be a good, strong, faithful witness, jumping right back in and just being faithful.

She comes in all the time. So Drew points out that in John, it says to leave.

They went out from us because they never truly were in the faith. You see, that's what the issue of the apostasy is.

They never were truly in the faith. They didn't just walk away and say, I've had enough. And Clint, I'm sorry,

Cody. Cody, he points out he's having a private conversation. He's having private conversation.

So I don't wanna throw him on blast on there. So Michael, you said it right.

Baptism of John is from heaven. It is a biblical thing. The whole point is, is it salvific?

And pastor norm, preacher norm, whatever you call yourself, you're of the opinion that it is salvific.

And if it's salvific, then I gotta say, then why did Christ have to die on the cross? Cody, people says all these people are taking it so seriously as a reason to rejoice no matter how much you disagree.

And the whole point is, is this, there is truth in salvation. That we need to repent and believe the gospel.

We need to be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ. It is by grace that we are saved through faith.

It's not of works. It's nothing that we do that saves us. It's by almighty

God himself. And so it is very serious. It's something that we need to take very seriously because there are people that are believing in their works all the time.

One thing I wanna say is that Justin Peters, he asked the question last week and he came, or last time we were on, he asked the question, if someone repents, believes the gospel and on their way to church to be baptized, if they get run over by a truck and get killed, are they going to heaven?

And preacher norm said, well, no, because repenting and trusting in Christ for your salvation is not enough.

Would you agree with that? Yes. Okay. And so that's the whole point. Because the element's the water.

The element is the water. The element is the water. And I'll say, there are many people that teach that.

The Roman Catholic church teaches about these issues of repentance and being in baptism.

And they talk about the taking on the sacraments and they take on all these different things that are part of their tradition that they've added to the things of God.

KT, you said that we're actually gathering all the information we can. It is the man who is grabbing verses and not looking at the whole about justification.

And so the points here - It's funny when every time I try to use a parallel passage, I get chided for wanting to run away from the text.

So, okay. Because we're trying to deal with the text. My friend, the whole point that she's making to you is, you're jumping all over the place.

You're jumping all over the place. I'm asking you specific questions. So how do you gather the information?

How do you gather the information if you don't go to different verses that talk about that same thing? Right? There's so much more information that needs to go with the thief on the cross to actually answer whatever it is you're trying to do with the thief on the cross.

But - Actually I did. That's not okay. Right? Actually, I multiple times did.

And so the point I'm trying to, I want to get at here is this. The point

I want to get at here is this. We're at an hour and 41 minutes in. And I believe the conversation has went about as far as it's going to go.

Right. My questions don't matter. Okay. Actually we've had -

Because I'm the one in the hot seat, not you. Right? Okay, well, we've had discussions and you know, Ted -

You never did answer my question. I asked one question tonight. And in an hour and a half,

I didn't get an answer to my question. Okay. What's that question? What would I need to do to disavow myself from Campbell and Stone?

I don't want to be in their organization.

I don't want to be - I want to be just in the New Testament church. Is it possible for me to just be in the

New Testament church? Well, I think something that my professor said to me one time, it was really good.

We all have preconceived ideas, whether we like them or not. Is this the answer to my question?

Yes. Yes. I'm trying to answer your question. All right. You don't have to do that though. No, we all have preconceived ideas whether we like them or not.

Yeah, we're going to be influenced by people who've taught us. Just like you've been influenced by people who've taught you.

I'm sure. I'm sure that you were saved or you think you're saved.

No, I'm not going to try to throw that into question. I'm sure you were saved by somebody coming alongside you, sharing the gospel with you, in your view, baptizing you, and then teaching you about the

Bible and teaching you how to study the Bible, right? Emphasis on that last, how to study the

Bible. Yeah. Okay. Well, I got some preconceived ideas of my own and I'm going to admit them.

I'm going to try to check them at the door whenever I go to scripture. Right. And I'm going to try to go into it.

Absolutely. And see, that's what makes the difference, right? Acknowledging that you may have some preconceived notions and purposely putting them aside when you go to study the text.

Because every time I study a passage, I study it like I'm studying it for the first time. That's great.

That's what we try to do. So what are my preconceived notions? Well, preconceived notions are what we've been discussing for an hour and a half.

What would I need to do to disavow myself? So those are preconceived notions on my part, not yours.

I didn't say that I have preconceived ideas. I have preconceived notions. That's twisting my words. Okay. That's, you're twisting his words because he's actually trying to be very gracious to you, but you don't allow for that.

Okay. No, I'm just asking. Okay. So you're saying this conversation for the whole past hour and a half is over my preconceived notions.

And I'm saying I don't have any. You don't have any preconceived notions at all? Not when

I go to scripture to study the scripture, no. Wow. That's amazing.

So you didn't have a preconceived notion? We found a perfect person to study the

Bible. I gotta say, I never get anything wrong. I'm just waiting to hear the idea here.

Are you saying that you don't get anything wrong if you have no errors in your, and how is it that you don't have preconceived notions?

When I go to the text to study the text, I just do it to look to see what's there in the text, not anywhere just there in the text.

And if I go to study a text, thinking that I already know what it means, because I mean, you call up some verses,

I'm gonna say, yeah, I've studied those verses and I know what they mean. But when I go to study, to sit down in my study,

I purposely discount those things and say, no,

I'm looking at it to see what is actually there. Okay, so if I were to say, if I were to bring up Ephesians one.

Right, written in about 64 from Paul in prison.

Okay, so we got some historical context there. There's no preconceived notions in that. Right, that's right.

So if I were to bring up Ephesians one, 13. And him, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him were sealed with the

Holy Spirit, you wouldn't have any preconceived notions when you read that verse.

I mean, just looking at it now, responding to you now, of course, I'm responding based on my prior study of the passage, yes.

Right, I mean, we both believe that we have studied this passage and we understand what it means.

So of course, but that's not what I said. But when

I sit down - But let's just for the sake of argument, say that this is your first verse you've ever read. Okay.

Okay. So for the sake of argument, this is the first verse I've ever read and? And the first time you've ever read the

Bible and that's the verse that you read. Okay. How would you get, how would you get -

Well, I mean, if I just opened the Bible for the first time and I read

Ephesians 1 .13 and I read in him, well, I'd start searching to see who him is.

You also trusted after you heard the word of truth. Well, I'd start searching to see what the word of truth is. The gospel,

I'd start searching to see what the gospel is of your salvation. I'd start searching to see what salvation says.

In whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. So I'd start, you know, searching about what it says about sealed, what it says about the

Holy Spirit, because just from reading that one verse, I don't have enough information to do anything or to believe anything. So is that not what

I'm supposed to do? So where did you get that notion? No, no, no. Actually, wait. You're doing, okay, go ahead.

Sorry. Hold on. I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to jump over, but I do want to ask the question here because I want to make sure it's clear.

Where did you get that preconceived notion from? Preconceived notion of what? That you should take apart that text that way.

Just natural reading of it. Just, I mean, that's, I don't, just from reading that one, I'm taking

John's speculation and saying how I would react if that was the only verse of scripture

I've ever read. I wouldn't know who him is. So of course I would want to know who him is because it says, you know, you also trust it.

Okay, well, who is this that is talking about trusted? You know, that the people this is written to, I don't know that either if that's the only verse

I've ever read. So me personally, the way I read, you know,

I guess anything is if that's, if that's the only snippet I get,

I need a whole lot more information. So that's not a preconceived notion. That's just me wanting to understand what the verse is saying.

Well, one thing that I would say is the praise there is that this Bible was not given in one snippet.

It was actually given in context in a letter, Ephesians. Right, so I need to go read the whole letter.

You would actually be reading from this Bible passage. So therefore you would know that the one that this talking about is

Jesus Christ who predestined you for adoption. Okay, so this isn't the only passage

I've read then. Because I thought I was going from that, you know. Well, I'm sitting here asking you a question.

I'm asking you, they're asking questions, I'm asking questions. And so building on that is how we come to understanding.

Are we building on the idea that this is the only verse I've ever read? Sure, let's start there.

Okay, go with it. Okay, let's start there. How do you know how you would have actually reacted if this is the only verse you'd ever read and nobody ever told you to go look elsewhere?

Because I don't know who Him is. I don't know what I'm supposed to trust about Him. I don't know what the word of truth is.

I don't know what the gospel is. I don't know what salvation is. I don't know what it is I'm supposed to be believing or who the

Holy Spirit is or what the Holy Spirit is for that matter. And what the promise is. If that's the only verse I've read,

I don't know any of those things. And so me being the inquisitive person that I am, I'm gonna want that information.

So you have a pre... That's not a preconceived notion, is it? That's just me wanting to know what it says.

But that's actually... I think our understanding of preconceived notions is wrong. And actually, when you get into the study, when you get into the study and you actually do some of the historical context of who

Paul's even writing to here and you've realized that these are people who have already been baptized twice, you're not gonna read a passage in a personal letter that was written to this congregation that was founded by people who were baptized twice and convinced me that when they read

Paul's statement in Ephesians 2, five through eight, that they looked at it and they said, oh, we really didn't need to be baptized both those times.

Right? You're reading somebody's personal mail, but you're not understanding it based on the audience it was written to.

So now I realize I went way beyond Ephesians 1, 13 and I'm sorry. Because your preconceived notion is to go throughout the passages of scripture and you can't deal with that one text.

And that's the whole point that he's trying to make, I think, is that we all have preconceived notions.

You just ridiculed him for saying you had preconceived notions. What is my preconceived notion there?

What is it you're calling a preconceived notion that I wanna know what the text is talking about? Your preconceived notion is that you need to go elsewhere.

And that's the point. Okay. You didn't just start - You're not just there on that one thing.

We're there through the whole entire discussion. You actually started with preconceived notions about Alexander Campbell and about -

How's that? I didn't bring up Alexander Campbell. No, I just laid it out. I just laid it out. What I said is, what do

I have to do to disavow myself from Alexander Campbell? I don't wanna be associated with Alexander Campbell.

I desire to disavow myself from him. What would I have to do? Go ahead, guys. How about you acknowledge that we are saved?

I can't. See? And then guess what? See what? That I'm looking at the

Bible and saying that based on the Bible - No, you're looking at Campbell and saying according to his -

You're looking at Campbell's teaching. That's Campbell's teaching. That's not - I unequivocally and without reservation of any kind, here in this public forum, disavow

Alexander Campbell. He is not my founder. He's not my leader. I don't look to him for anything, okay?

Now, I'm sure that still won't be good enough, but okay. Oh, it's good enough for me. It just means you don't believe baptism saves you anymore.

That's great. That did not originate with Alexander Campbell. That originated with inspired scripture.

No, that originated with an argument between Alexander Campbell and many other people who kicked him out of the churches because he was in -

So, if it originated with Alexander Campbell, I shouldn't be able to go anywhere in the Bible and show that a person has to be baptized to be saved.

You can pull any text of scripture. You can look in the Bible, but you can also just keep - Rip it out.

Spitting out the same script that you've heard over and over and over from the teachings of Campbell. Yeah, all the ones that talk about baptism.

I can't use any of those. Okay, got it. So, you just - No, you're not listening to me. You're like the lady that took a pen back and cut out all the passages in the scripture that she didn't like, and she just had, it really was a holy

Bible. We still keep baptism. We love baptism. Yeah. Baptism's great. Baptism's great.

If you were baptized - But you don't put it in the patterns where it goes. That's like saying you love the number seven, and so you dial the number seven, but if you keep dialing the number seven and nothing else, you're not gonna get me, right?

You have to dial my number and put the sevens in the right place in the number or else you're not gonna get to me.

And if you make a mistake, you transpose a couple of numbers, you can't just keep going. You gotta go back and start over and put the numbers in right.

So, what I'm saying is you claim to love baptism as a symbol, as an outward show of something that the

Bible doesn't say it is. The Bible says that we are baptized into Christ.

We put on Christ in baptism. We're baptized into Christ to be buried with him in death.

To be raised with him in newness of life. That's what the Bible teaches about baptism.

I didn't originate that. Alexander Campbell didn't originate that. The Bible originated that. For Ephesians 1 .13

originates that idea that we are sealed in Christ. That's exactly what that's talking about. And we believe.

We are buried with him. That's right. We are buried with him in faith.

We're not physically buried with him. We didn't physically go to the tomb with him. We didn't physically die on the cross with him.

And now I know why you guys don't put the Bible on the screen. We just did several times. I've put it on multiple times.

Anyway, your straw man fallacies aside, it's been an informative conversation.

This - You still didn't answer my question. So, I can't. All right. I cannot disavow myself from Campbell.

It's been an hour and 55 minutes in. Okay. Can I ask another question then since you won't answer that one? I'm not allowed to disavow myself.

We answered it about six times. Okay. We have five minutes left, Norm. Those slogans that you went through in the beginning when you were, you know, you got a member of the church

Christ on the program, but you wanted to give a dissertation about the church Christ before me. So, those slogans -

Because we wanted to have a conversation. Those slogans you went through. Okay. Now, I know you're saying we're close to time.

And, you know, so I can't get you - You got about one minute. Quickly. I would be curious as to which one of those slogans you disagree with.

Okay. You already know. We've already had this talked about. Was there an original church?

That's a simple yes or no question. Was there an original church? Well, sure. Okay. What happened to it?

It's still alive and well and still going great. It's the church that Christ started. That's exactly right.

And I'm - Your claim is also that we're not - Hold on. Now, hold on, John. Hold on, John. I do. The reason that he says -

Because you belong to man -made organizations. And so do you. And so do you. You claim to be -

My church isn't affiliated with any denomination, Norm. What? Your church isn't affiliated with any denomination.

You can say a movement all you want to. I'm sorry, I'm not understanding what you're saying. Just - Go ahead. Josiah, go ahead.

Josiah? My church isn't affiliated with any denomination. We're non -denom. Okay. So you're saying that I'm affiliated with a denomination when

I'm not. And my teachings are influenced by a denomination when

I'm not, when it's not. The faith -only system of salvation that you teach, it definitely had a man -made origin with Luther was probably the earliest recorded one to teach faith -only salvation.

Actually - In response to - I appreciate that mention of Luther. And we went through that last time that every single verse you use where Paul is saying not by works, every single one, it's in the context of him refuting the binding of the law, the old law of Moses on Christians, every single one of them.

And so that can't be applied to man -made traditions like water baptism.

Water baptism is not a man -made tradition. Well, I think - How come everybody's been doing it since the second century?

I, the earliest controversy over baptism that I know of from my study of church history was when someone was too sick to be put in the baptistry and they deluged him with buckets of water.

And then it kind of went from there reasoning, well, if we could do that, then we don't need the baptistry.

Well, they couldn't do that. And so they did something that wasn't authorized by scripture. Then there was places where there wasn't much water so that they had to sprinkle.

And there was places where, yeah, you're right about the pouring of water. There was times when water was scarce and you couldn't -

So that did not originate in the New Testament. But the problem is, is you're saying baptism now saves you.

But the problem is, is here. Ephesians 2. You just quoted a Bible verse. I didn't say that. You just quoted a

Bible verse. It's not the washing of the water is the part that you can - Now you're not quoting a Bible verse. Ephesians 2, 8 and 9 says, "'For by grace you have been saved through faith, that it not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.'"

And the whole point that we're trying to make here tonight - What translation is that? NASB. Okay? It's probably not biblical according to you, but it's the

NASB. And the whole idea - Was that smugness, Justin? Were you a little smug there? Little bit,

I think. Actually, I'm just being quippish. There you go. Maybe you'll try to figure out what that means.

I'll go with that. Now, that was smug. Okay. S Hopkins did a $1 .99

- Oh, I thought you were talking about Ephesians 2. I'm sorry, these come up. We throw this out quick. Acts 10 and 11 proves that water is not needed.

There you go. Okay, so thank you there for the - Acts 10 and 11 prove water is not needed. Go there.

Okay, yeah. Go there. We don't have to talk about - We're closing that. Right, don't have to.

We're closing that. All right, hey, Norm, it was nice to have you. Peter said, can any forbid water that these should not be? Norm, it was so nice to have you.

And I just, yeah, I muted him. See you later, Norm. Have a great time with your baptism, your water baptism and whatnot.

He dropped out. He's got angry. Guys, this is, the whole point is this.

When the scripture makes it clear that you're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, you better believe it.

There's only one way of salvation and that is Jesus Christ. And we must repent and believe the gospel. It's not a work of righteousness, which we do.

And the pride in it comes in saying, look what I did. In the entire book of Galatians, the issue is there's not salvation sufficient in Christ.

It must be by becoming Jewish and by adding two things, the works of man, the works of the law, the doing the things, that evidence that then you can be saved.

And the whole point that we're trying to make in this entire discussion is that he doesn't come blank in a blank slate.

He comes with preconceived notions that we can trace back to the 1800s that come from Alexander Campbell from the

Restoration Movement, 1832, Barton Stone, Brother Josiah, you did a great job on this stuff.

Guys, go to Strive for Eternity and look at this. You're gonna get great information here. Great stuff that talk about the history of this.

It's not a blank slate, okay? This stuff has passed down and carried out throughout history.

And what we can see is at least since the 1800s, we've had so many different groups that say, that your way is not the way, your

Baptist way, your Presbyterian way, your Lutheran way, your non -denominational way, it's not the way.

I have a new truth, I have a new wisdom. An angel told me or this person told me or that person told me.

And so we have to listen to these groups. The Bible tells us that you're saved by grace, that it's through faith and you can't boast.

And what you saw tonight, what you saw the other week, was a man boasting in his baptism and then condemning everyone else for not submitting to his authority.

And that's exactly what happened to the Galatians. And Paul says, I would not submit to that, not for even one moment.

I wouldn't allow Titus to be circumcised. I wouldn't allow him to come under the knife to become a

Jew. He says, I wouldn't allow any of that because anything you add to the gospel nullifies the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If you don't know Christ as your savior, or if you're in these cults that say, you must do these extra works and these extra things, including baptism,

I'm gonna ask you, please examine yourself. Trust in Jesus Christ, not in your works.

And think about what Josiah was talking about. Ephesians, many places,

Ephesians 2, Ephesians 3, tells us that it is by the power of the spirit we're sealed, that it is by grace through faith we're saved.

It is a gift of God. We're not giving God anything by jumping in the water.

It's not a result of works. And the evidence that what's preacher

Norm doesn't believe what he's saying is he had to go to a blank space in the

Bible to find some place where he can say, see, look, the man on the cross, the thief on the cross, he had to have been baptized, he had to have heard, he had to have believed, because he had to have been baptized.

We know it when I expose and explain that he got it from where? The Old Testament.

He got it from the Old Testament. He got the truth of the word of God from the Old Testament. The same

Old Testament that Paul was preaching about, that Peter was preaching about, that John was preaching about, that all the apostles were preaching about, the

Old Testament that Jesus used to rebuke those who were trying to make salvation an act of work.

Guys, works won't save you. You must trust in Christ alone, by grace, through faith.

If you don't know him, please do. Okay, guys, I hope we've had a great time.

Guys, y 'all wanna say anything else before we close up? You wanna go first, John? First John.

I just wanna clear the air and let Norm know that there's something that he doesn't know about me that I've never gotten a chance to express to him.

But during the year of 1990, in the month of August through December, I was down in San Diego after bootcamp, and I was going through while I was in the

Navy. And so basically what happened was I came across a bunch of guys from the

Church of Christ. Now, I didn't know a thing about them. Didn't know anything about them.

I just thought they were regular Christians wanting to have a Bible study. I joined in with their little group, went through the whole rigmarole, and believe me, they have it all scripted.

They have everything all just right down the line. They just go ahead and ask you all these same questions and make you feel guilty.

And basically they trick you into thinking that you weren't saved in the beginning, and now you have to be a part of us.

And it took a little while. I was a part of the church for maybe like two weeks, maybe not even that.

And so basically what it ended up with is me asking them questions.

And it finally, it came to the point where I had to ask them, are you guys the only true church?

Because I was trying to convince them. It's like, look, I was saved before. And so they were saying, no, you weren't.

And so basically they finally admitted saying, yes, we are the only true church.

And that's when I realized, oh, you guys are a cult. And that's exactly what Norm said.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly the point is they're the only true church. And what

I wanna point out too is my father was Church of Christ and I was in Church of Christ for a long time with him.

And the one thing that was told to me is what Preacher Norm said at the end.

He is the only Christ, the Church of Christ is the only true church because they are

Christ's church. There is no other church than Christ's church. And because they take the name, then they have the mantle.

Which is another twisting of the words. I mean, it's just manipulation. That's all it is.

In order so that they can claim authority and position and power.

And it's ridiculous. It's really sad. It really is. My heart is actually hurting because of this.

It really is. Norm, I mean, I just, I weep for you, buddy. I really do. Because it's just, it's so sad that you, you think that your little niche, your little slice of heaven is all there is.

And you don't get the chance to fellowship with these other believers.

You don't get a chance to even, grow with other denominations.

I mean, I'm just a regular non -denominational guy, but I hold to TULIP. But that doesn't mean that I discredit other people who don't hold to monergism or Calvinism.

I don't exclude them out of the family of God. And in fact,

I love those guys. I love my preacher, my pastor, my church. He's not Calvinist.

But you know what? I still learn from him. I still grow from him. I still lean into him and actually become a stronger

Christian because of it. And yet Norm, he just has one little, just a minor, just a little narrow, very narrow looking into what a

Christian is. I'm sorry, I'm rambling right now. But anyways, go ahead there, Josiah. That's okay.

I have a lot of history with the restoration movement. My family comes from the

Christian churches, the independent Christian churches.

And they were split off of the disciples of Christ churches that deny the physical resurrection of Jesus.

And the independent Christian churches, I think there's probably more Christians in them than there are in the other branches of the movement.

But that's because again, there's no doctrinal unity. There's no doctrinal unity.

The thing that they are unified on is baptism and Lord's Supper being weekly.

And sometimes people in the church of Christ, actually ministers do get saved and they do stop teaching that baptism saves you.

And they start teaching the truth. So I know a few of them that have been gotten saved and become more grace through faith.

The thing, I went to a restoration college that taught people from independent

Christian church, disciples and church of Christ. And verses like Ephesians 1, 13, they kept me going at realizing, hey, you know what?

Bible doesn't teach you're saved by baptism. We're saved by believing in Jesus and being sealed by the

Holy Spirit. We're saved by grace first through faith, not ourselves, gift of God, not a result of any kind of works.

And that's what I was trying to point out there is, it's, I've got neighbors that I love. I mean, my stepdad,

I love him. I know people, my uncle, these guys are church of Christ and I love them with all my heart.

We've sat down and had these respectful discussions and we agree one of us is wrong.

And that's why this is so serious. This is why like Marcy Oliver, she's commented on here talking about, thanking us for doing this.

This wasn't about hate. This isn't about, hey, let's see who can get you with a gotcha moment. This is about praying for somebody who has made the claim that you guys aren't brothers,

I'm not a brother. Nobody's Christian, nobody's Christian except for, let's see, how do you say it?

Nobody's Christian except for the Christ church. You know, people saying these things and you go, okay, where do you get this from?

You know, where do you get this ideology from? And it's part of that mindset, it's part of the teaching and it becomes elitist.

And guys, this is so important. That's why we wanted to spend the time to do this. You know,

I gladly said, you know, Josiah knows we were gonna do this show whether Norm came on or not.

I'm glad he came on so we could have some discussions. I didn't, I pray the

Holy Spirit save his soul, okay? I pray for it based on the way he's teaching, the actions, the attitude, the smugness, all of the things, the one thing that you gotta think about is if he's a preacher, what does

Titus and Timothy tell us about a man who's a preacher? He's not a brawler, he's not a quarreler, he's not a debater and a fighter.

It's not just saying that you don't debate. It's saying that you're not someone that wants to be just, you know, in the screaming, yelling, you know, bloodshed or the massive just knock down, drag out arguments because you've gotta be right.

It reminds me of Diotrephes. Diotrephes in the book of John, and he says,

John says, this man would not so much as allow anyone into the church that did not submit to him and agree with him.

He was kicking people out of the church. You're not saved, you're not a part of the body of Christ because of my doctrine, my things.

Guys, this is why we did this, you know? This is why we did this and I hope and I pray that those that don't know

Christ, that are stuck in these things will hear this and as KT said, not being pugnacious, not having that heart of bickering and fighting, but have a heart of love.

Because you know what breaks my heart? Josiah, John, during this entire time, he never tried to share the gospel with us.

Not one time, not one time. All he said was this

Bible verse, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one. Yeah, if he really was concerned about our soul, wouldn't he?

I mean, wouldn't he actually be just grasping at our legs and just begging us to listen to the gospel?

I try to do that every day. Linda Yost, and we're gonna close up, guys.

Linda Yost closes with Acts 10, 47 to 48. She asked the question, the scripture says, "'Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people "'who have received the

Holy Spirit just as we have "'and have commanded, and he commanded them "'to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?

"'Then they asked him to remain for some days.'" Now here's the thing, you look at that passage, you look at the thief on the cross and look at many other passages, you see over and over and over again that baptism is not what saves the physical act of water baptism.

And Norm was taking the verse out of context when I said, you're misapplying baptism now saves you.

You see it's in the Bible. Baptism doesn't save you. It's what, what is it,

Josiah? It's the outward evidence that you've received the Holy Spirit, that you've been born again.

It's, that's what it is. It's the symbol of you dying with Christ and being risen from the dead.

It's the symbol that identifies you with that. You've already repented and trusted. You're gonna, and you, if you've already repented and trusted it, having believed you're still with the promised

Holy Spirit, it's a guarantee of your inheritance to the age to come. But we're not saved by that water.

Right, right. It's an outward description of what you've done with yourself spiritually, what

Christ has done. You know, he buried and rose again, you know, and yeah, it's frustrating.

Yep, okay guys, just be praying. Cause you know, there's people that we know, that we love, we care about that are caught up in so many different false teachings.

And this is what we do at Apologetics Live. Our purpose is to proclaim the truth.

You know, we're, we're trying to try to, you know, share the gospel as often as we can and expose the errors.

You know, guys, if you want to see just verse after verse applied in context, go to Striving for Eternity and look at Josiah's work.

You know, look at Andrew's work, look at other people's work. Don't look at mine, I barely do anything, but you know,

I, you know, I don't know. I mean, maybe just look at these guys, look at these guys and see what they're trying to explain.

They deal with a lot of deep subjects. You know, Matt Slick at CARM, you've got the guys that got questions.

They do a good job as well. You have, you know, so many people that are trying to give truth.

And our prayer is that God will save. Our prayer is that God will save, you know? And so we pray that you all had a wonderful evening.

We pray that you, thank you so much for everybody being here. Please remember to keep Andrew and his family in prayers.

And well, what is it? Make each day an eternal day for the glory of God. Okay. Amen.