Is Divine Healing for Today? Part 2

Hello and welcome back to part two of our debate tonight on healing where the subject is is the gift of healing for today

Mediating is Tim Vince and either side of him are dr. Michael Brown and dr.

James White and for the last hour They've had the opportunity of putting some of the arguments putting some of the points concerning scripture on this important subject now

It's your opportunity to come back to them and say your points and ask some Questions and already many of you have been doing that with emails and texts and Twitters that tweets that have come in We're going to be also opening the phone lines

And there'll be an opportunity if you ring for some of you to be able to speak to them direct and ask them

Your question let me just say Some of the tweets that have come in Brent he wrote and said great opening statement

David Betts said a similar thing He says these are two of the best opening statements. I've ever heard well done and Honoria Latin said

Ephesians 4 is so misunderstood so Misunderstood as you can imagine lots of you have got comments on the things that we're discussing tonight

And Kaz Lavida said he is in a he is in in us both to will and to work

It is God who does the healing and not us he still heals, but according to his grace not according to our desires and Joan wrote and said that the last debate she agreed with dr.

Michael Concerning the things to do with predestination, but tonight. She's in agreement with dr.

James regarding healing she says as I too have seen miraculous healings But I've also sat at the bedside of godly people who love

God who did not get healed Now to some of the questions that have been coming in Quite a number are coming in and saying how is it that we do seem to hear of genuine healings through the

Lord Jesus Christ? in more simple less materialistic societies than our own says

Rebecca and a similar theme is in a Text that has come in from Mike who says and why is it that the poor are more receptive to healing than the rich?

EGV reports of healings are far more widespread in Africa than in many Western nations and Her question is why am

Mike's question? Sorry my question is when Jesus said greater works from these will be done

What did he mean and just one more question from Carl and in Spain?

He says Hebrews 13 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever it's often quoted when discussing this subject to defend the continuing nature of apostolic or otherwise miraculous healing and Particularly dr.

White doesn't this contradict your position if not, what does it mean Tim? Just a few of the points are back to you

Okay, I think I've noted them all down and even during the break We had some other questions to add to it

Jesus the same yesterday today and forever the last one first absolutely Recognizing my memory is not good enough to remember

Okay You know interesting way to let's go for the other one as well greater works in these shall be done

Okay, just add to it to it Saying the Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever does not mean that Jesus Christ is going to do everything the same way that He's always done it in the past Again, I think this is a just a false assumption.

The text isn't talking about that In fact in the context it the very next verses do not be led away by a diverse and strange teachings, etc

Etc, which I would apply to a lot of word faith teachers is interestingly enough But saying the

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever is talking about his nature not how he's dealt with people because the reality is

Jesus dealt with his people in one way under the Old Covenant a different way under the New Covenant and so you could

Destroy all distinctions in the way that God has dealt with his people by quoting that text and saying well He always has to do it through the use of the law or through Sabbath observances or whatever else

That obviously is not what the writer to the Hebrews is talking about there and when we talk about John chapter 14

And I'm glad the question was brought up because it I kept putting in my notes and then Time wouldn't allow me to get to it

Interestingly enough John 14 through 16 is the section where Jesus is talking about the coming of the

Spirit the first application of Everything in that text has to be to the

Apostles themselves immediately Then you have to be very careful in making application beyond that to those who believe because of their message that is to the rest

Of the church, but when you talk about greater things What greater things did as ever recorded in the

New Testament that the Apostles did than Jesus did? I think it's a question everybody has to answer if you're gonna say greater things than Jesus did

Jesus raised the dead Jesus did all sorts of these things and when we look at any of the things that the

Apostles did They don't seem to eclipse in any way the miracles of Jesus So what is that text talking about?

I would like to suggest and I think most people outside of Western cultures automatically sort of gather on to this and this is and I say this was all seriousness that the

Perseverance under trial Persecution and suffering that has been seen in the

Saints of God down through the ages whereby they are Conformed to the image of Christ they die to self they die to this world

They put to death their members and become like the very

Son of God because of their union with him is the Greatest miracle that has ever taken place.

It involves the incarnation of the Son of God It involves his sacrifice on the cross. It involves the ministry of the

Spirit of God in our lives That is the greatest miracle that could possibly ever take place

And I think we have to consider those as possibilities because the Bible itself does not record for us the the

Apostles doing anything more than what Jesus did in that way, so I don't think it is greater in the sense of Flashier I think is greater in the sense of its enduring effect

Because Lazarus great risen from the dead. Thank thank the Lord. He died later

Yeah, and so it is it is the endurance that makes it greater and and the

Lord did say to Thomas You know blessed of those who believe without seeing you know, and Thomas had to see

That there isn't Lord. Maybe you don't necessarily have to see to believe but other questions are here now

I I note that you can you can give empirical Examples from both sides, but the lady who said about you know illness by the bedside

I want to bring this forward as it were before we go to the other two questions We were talking in the break about you know

What do you do with someone who's in need of surgery and Jehovah's Witnesses and the parents?

You know who won't allow their children to have a blood transfusion comes to mind What does a faith, you know ministry do in that situation sure

Let me just say in very brief response to the previous points and then to come to that specific question

Although I agree exegetically Hebrews 13 8 is not primarily making a statement about whether to expect healing

I think it's only natural when people read the Gospels and Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the

Father It's the will of God in action. He's moved by compassion that we can really expect to see similar things happening and then

John 14 I'd look at this in the larger context of the chapters there John 15 is one of the most important personal verses we all take in terms of abiding in the vine surely not just for the

Apostles and Whosoever believes whoever believes the Greek is used that exact same phrase a number of times in John's gospel

It's always universal as for greater works acts 2 let's start there 3 ,000 converted they add it to the body in a single day after a single message that never happened in the ministry of Jesus That would be one example right there

But but as far as just from his other example that you know How great it is that people can enjoy it is wonderful.

It's terrible in great testimony to God's Power in a human being and it's clearly by his grace that people do it not by their own strength

I don't see that in terms of the greater works that vocabulary of works the way It's used even in the very previous verse or elsewhere in John 10

I don't see it referring to it that does not seem to be a work there, so I agree It's a great demonstration of grace.

We've worked with persecuted Christians and had friends martyred for the gospel So we take our hats off to them

I just wouldn't see that specifically as what Jesus is saying, but but as far as Someone comes down gravely ill

FF Bosworth who is a mentor to a W Tozer said that that if sickness is being sent by God And he's afflicting people with sickness then doctors and hospitals and nurses earn rebellion against his will

Because they're trying to get rid of the will of God from people's lives rather if we look at sickness as an affliction as an attack

As part of being in a fallen world then doctors are on God's side as ministers of healing

Even with God saying I need on our effect on Exodus 15 26 I'm the Lord your healer

We see an exodus 21 of two men fight and and and there's an injury that the other man has to see that the person is

Thoroughly healed which has normally been taken to mean pay the physician's fee. We see at the Yeah, so we see in Jeremiah the 8th chapter the prophet saying is is there no physician there is an

Obama Gilead We see in Isaiah 1 that there's simple treatment pouring wine and wounds or setting of bones or things like that Luke the doctor in the

New Testament Paul's advice to Timothy So I look at medical science as a gift from God on the same side when it comes to King Asa Whose name is short most likely for a sale or a sale which would be

Yahweh healed or God healed We see in in first 2nd Chronicles 14 and 15 that he moved the nation to seek

God He was attacked in an overwhelming way. It looked hopeless. He cried out to God God delivered him

The same thing happens in the 16th chapter Instead of looking to God he looks to the arm of flesh the

Prophet comes and rebukes him He throws the guy in prison then he gets terribly ill So he has been known for seeking the

Lord seeking the Lord seeking the Lord now instead He leans on the arm of flesh and even in his severe illness

He doesn't seek the Lord but rather consults with physicians Which I understand the Hebrew idiom to mean consulted with pagan physicians

So his sin was not trusting in God It is not a sin to go to doctors now if God judged someone with sickness

Because they were in sin and rebellion and that person rather than humbling themselves and praying went to a witch doctor

That would be the equivalent of what Asa did but for a Christian to say God's on the side of healing and health therefore medical science is a good thing.

Wonderful however I'd also agree with what James said our Tendency to immediately go to the to the bottle to the medicine to the doctor is something that many don't have as an alternative

Which is why many people in poorer countries. They recognize their need they don't have access to doctors

They're much quicker to lean on the Lord and trust him We can be so quick to go to doctors, but by all means thank

God for medical science. It's on the side of healing It's on God's side, right? I didn't think we'd get those other questions answered, but that's the skill of our folk here in the studio

We'll go back to Gordon for emails text Twitters Tim thanks so much as you can imagine quite a number of people are writing in and talking about the miraculous healing that they've experienced

Don't intend to read all of them, but let me just read one. This is from gay who says I was diagnosed with hyper

Friday's fried Fyroidism for over 21 years also had a viral infection kidney stones and cyst in my left ovary

I received Jesus as my Lord and Savior and last year by the blood of Jesus. I'm healed completely

She says I totally embrace believe and receive. I am the Lord that healeth thee

Exodus 15 26 so thank you for all of you who are writing in with such testimonies as that Facebook is being busy

Tim and Margaret on Facebook says I believe God heals through prayer and faith

But the gift of healing stopped with the Apostles whilst Angela says we can only pray

Thy will be done But Chris on the other hand says there are so many reports of Jesus healing throughout the world even people being raised from the dead

So I'm sure the gift of healing is still for today now Let me just put some questions that have come in This is from Peter who thanks us at Revelation for organizing the debate and he says you often hear

Christians including he says some people on Revelation TV quoting verses like Isaiah 53 verse 5 and 1

Peter 2 24 by his stripes We're healed and relating it to sickness and he's saying

Could our panel say do these verses refer exclusively to physical healing or are they to do with Christ's work?

in redemption a very simple one -liner Text here, which says 1

John 5 Verses 14 to 15 is the most clear instruction that we need to understand

Healing and Bernard says keep it simple and if I ask you one more has this one for It's for dr.

White and it says I would like to ask dr White whether he will pray for the sick for divine healing like it happened at the beautiful gate in Acts 3 and on what basis

Will he do it? If he will Over to you Tim. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much now Is it fair to go straight to you

James as I went to you last time I don't think they were quite listening to your opening statement, but Isaiah 53 and 1

Peter 2 verse 24. Sure. I focused on this in my doctoral dissertation first Let me give the simple answer and and then the more in -depth answer first Peter 2 is is primarily emphasizing

Spiritual healing you were like sheep going astray You've returned to the shepherd and bishop of your souls by whose wounds you were healed the emphasis there is on spiritual healing what

I would say is the the prophetic vision was the whole person holy healed that there was not this strict dichotomy that made between Physical healing and spiritual healing and that was the vision of the prophets

Therefore the language is carrying sickness and pain which would which not be exclusively taken in a spiritual way

What's interesting is that? Isaiah 53 is quoted in Matthew 8 Matthew 8 16 and 17 that Jesus drives out demons and heals the sick

To fulfill what was written in Isaiah 53 surely he's born our sickness has carried our pains But when you look at that passage in Isaiah 53, he was carrying our sicknesses and pains when he hung on the cross

So, how does Matthew quote it there? Matthew looks at the whole of Jesus ministry in a vicarious way that he enters into our world and Takes on his shoulders our suffering our pain until he goes to the root of all human suffering namely sin and nails it to the cross

As a result of that as the benefits of the cross make their way in our lives The ultimate benefits are in eternity, but many do come our way not just with spiritual healing

But with physical healing and deliverance as well So I see Isaiah 53 as broader the whole man wholly healed the application in first Peter to focusing on spiritual healing

Okay, could I ask could I could I ask a follow -up on that however real practical application here perfectly agreed first Peter to Very spiritual application salvation, etc, etc.

I had this happen as a chaplain And so I want to know how you would respond to this I know how

I responded to it obviously, but people who have heard a teaching that Healing is in the atonement.

It is always God's will etc, etc What about the person who hears that message they hear the message to repent and to believe and they assume

That because of that to truly believe in Jesus means you must experience healing and yet they have some some disease

They don't experience that and therefore cannot believe that they've actually experienced salvation as well

What do you say to them from your perspective a very important question? And and I think we have to be very diligent when we speak about healing to minister to all the needs and to speak to those who are not healed and to encourage faith in the midst of Suffering what

I want what I proclaim loudly and clearly in the gospel is that Jesus came to save us from our sins

That Jesus came to deliver us from from guilt and from our destructive life so that we now live a life in obedience to God That's the gospel.

That's the fundamental purpose of the cross That's what happens when we repent and believe forgiveness of sins a new life and obedience to the

Lord I see there are benefits that accrue to us through the cross. I I see

Redemption and restoration and salvation is as all part of the same Wonderful stream even with the word sozo which

Luke uses in just a couple of chapters for forgiveness of sins Deliverance from demons raising from the dead and healing of the sick.

So he is the Savior from all these different situations so I would clearly distinguish forgiveness of sins from everything else and Then say the benefits of the cross can be accrued to us by faith

For example, there are people who are mentally disturbed and through relationship with God and peace coming that they're actually delivered from that There are people we hear it all the time

Especially evangelism in third world countries as people cry out to Jesus for salvation They find themselves healed but I would say the one thing is the guaranteed

Result of the cross that everyone experiences in this life and there are benefits that that we can experience

I see it all purchased there and available through there But I would make that distinction and if anyone had that way of thinking that well if I'm not healed there if I'm not saved

I'd immediately cut that right at the root. Okay, James just so that I'm Consistence the last question that came through, you know, would you pray for the sick as in Acts 3 and I?

Would also just comment on gays healing, you know that this is there a principle there that Remember gay

She she was said she was completely healed You know if you believe and receive I'd like you to comment on that in the answer the first question again the normative context in the

New Testament is I'm an elder in a church. Therefore members of my church.

We pray for them in accordance with Jacob 5 That's supposed to get supposed to give points

Jacob since since we use other English names Jacob is good enough. See he disagreed with you there I got you got you from the other side.

But anyways We do obviously I told the story of the fact that we prayed for the healing

We have another individual in our congregation who was healed after about 10 or 11 years of constant prayer for her in a chronic situation obviously,

I would make a distinction with the acts 3 because we're talking about Apostle here and I don't claim to be an apostle I Claim to be an elder So there

I see a distinction between the two but one of the things that immediately crossed my mind when that Email was read was what does and this is one of the reasons

I asked a question. I did what does Someone else with the exact same Physical ailment listening in the audience think when they have in faith prayed for deliverance and have not been

That is one of the things that concerns me about our discussion and from my perspective This is where the freedom of God and this is where we have a difference

Working out his will to sanctify each of his children in the way that he chooses

I I look at there's a lady in our congregation. That's that suffers from from migraine headaches

I've had a few of those things in my life and my goodness I don't think

I could be the way she is and Function the way she does if I had that kind of I just I can call me a wimp if you want

But I just don't know how I could do that and God has not yet chosen to Free her despite the prayers of all of the

Saints for her If she hears someone who is freed from that What is the what is that what is the result of that if you don't have?

That concept that God is free to sanctify his children as he chooses to do

We have someone on the line, so we'll come back to that because I have actually waited I tried not to interrupt you on what you had to say, but Douglas.

Thank you for your patience and Please put your question to our guests Thank you very much congratulations on a really helpful day so far

My question is for dr. Brown and actually do is the book of Acts it was mentioned in passing that What we see in the book of Acts is not the

Apostles Just using like part of regular body life, so my question is how are we to view the book of Acts is the book of Acts a transitional book showing us what's happening in the

Early church, or is it a blueprint for how church life is supposed to be down through the ages? It's it's both in other words

There are things that are there in in terms of our sense of community in terms of our

Expectation of the power of God coming in terms of the gospel coming with power to bring conversion of individuals and masses that should be

Normative we should be seeing that as the gospel continues to spread around the world and in point of fact

Many parts of the world as the gospel is spreading the story sound very reminiscent of the book of Acts as far as further

Blueprint though, that's where we have to go to the parts of the New Testament that are specifically meant as a blueprint

So we want to see what worship services should be like or gatherings Well, well Paul tells us about that in 1st

Corinthians 14 We want to see about the ongoing operation of the Spirit in our midst we go there 1st

Corinthians 12 through 14 We want to understand other things about about church order and ministry requirements.

We go to the pastoral letters So we want to take in the whole testimony of the New Testament So we know certain things in Acts are unique and there is a certain establishing and there is a first first generation witness that's unique but other things in terms of God's ongoing presence and power and Transformation of lives should be normative and when we read that it often drives me to my knees to say

Lord Where's the power of the gospel when we speak the word? Where's the convicting power? Where's our dedication and prayer even the idea that there's often persecution for the faith?

We see that through the New Testament, but acts is telling us as Jesus often did that it would be normative So there are aspects of it that are transitional that are foundational

There are other aspects Which are to be continued and then we see how the whole thing is fleshed out in other parts of the

New Testament James anything to add on that I want to ask a further question I'm actually giving my opponent more time asking questions, but but this is so this is so important to me you and I have both entered into the fray and the battle in standing for godliness in Western culture that seems to be absolutely in love with death and Absolutely in love with anything that is opposed to God into his ways, especially in regards to marriage and sexuality both of us have done that would love to have the opportunity of doing it with you at some point in the future, but Here's my question.

Do you see you just use the term normative and Yet we live in a culture that I think you would agree is under the judgment of God for its love of self and sin

And it's rejection of a tremendous amount of light Would you see? that there would be something different in regards to the ministry of the

Spirit and What we would expect to see as the result of our preaching in a land that is under judgment

Over against a land where the gospel is going forth Deliverance is taking place from false idols and religions, you know on the cusp of where the church is growing

Could you see that there would be a difference in what the normative experience of the church would be?

Here in a land under judgment over against that other context. Yes in the idea of course.

Yes Yes, you know Yes for sure and that they're different contexts and and God does pour out his grace in certain ways where the gospel is first going and being established and and the false gods are being

Destroyed and and and false ideologies demolished and and yes, I could see us bringing a prophetic witness of warning

Followed by judgment. I could see that happening at the same time. I want to be a man full of the

Spirit I want to be a man that when I'm speaking. It's more than just my words

I I want it to be as we're speaking for righteousness. It's not just I have a political conservative view

So on that level that's what I want to see Normative in that sense, but will

I expect to just say in at any given meeting? I'm gonna lay hands on the sick now. They're gonna be healed and that's gonna be a sign

There is a context for everything But I would love to see at the end of a debate say on Redefining marriage at a university that people come up and say

I'm undone I'm shaken something's the matter and and God manifesting his power in that way

Just say Douglas. Thank you very much for your phone call and your question We'll go back to a

Gordon now for some more of your messages Thank you so much emails as in texts are simply flooding in as you can imagine and I'll just give you a flavor

So many questions we could be going on I think for a few hours tonight Alex writes and says mark 1124 tells me that whatsoever you ask in prayer and Alex says whatsoever includes healing and Alex talks about somebody called

Kenneth Huggins who got a revelation of this verse and Received his healing.

He'd be interested to know what the panel think And then talking about healing today and the gift of healing

I guess this one's particularly towards dr. Michael Brown Tim is asking the question.

Why is it if the gift of healing is in the church, but the survival rate for cancer and Similar such illnesses are no better for Christians than atheists or followers of other faith

Somebody called governor Hammond has written and said dr. James claims He's witnessed people who've had a lot of faith, but were not healed

He says I would like to know upon which basis does he measure the level of faith of these people?

How does he know whether these people have faith in our own eyes? We could think we have faith, but in God's eyes they don't

Tim back to you Thank you, there's three really good questions there I want to slightly interject with this

I can see some crossover because James has asked a few times about Acknowledging that it's

God's will in an instance where someone is not healed. You'll say it's

God's will I don't know Why go to the doctor then to try to get God's will off of that person if I've concluded

It's God's will for them to be sick. Why get any medical care so I know I've not concluded

That because stream case of a faith someone who's got a great ministry in healing I don't have an illness once prayed for them to be here

I don't know what's happening behind the scenes and it's wrong for me to make judgment the book of Job makes clear that when you

See suffering don't change your view of the person and say well You must be a sinner, and then don't change your view of God and say well

God must have sent it because neither of those things Let me say this about sickness

That's really important here I know people who have grown in God through being sick

I know others who have been utterly destroyed and decimated families decimated one of my dear friends has been in a hellish battle

With severe cancer for years now. He was on his on death's door numerous times. It's a miracle.

He's even still alive honestly It has it has hindered him from touching so many people.

He wants to touch it has been such a brutal trial He loved Jesus before he loves

Jesus now He was living a godly life before he's living a godly life now this thing has been a curse not a blessing

That's how Jesus often treated it. Why didn't he just say to the multitudes that he was healing hey?

This is sent by God to sanctify you I say God can work through all these things Romans 828 is true and all things

God works for the good of those who love him But I put this one back to James in terms of you know of sickness and illness

You could attribute that to the the enemy of God Well the God always uses means and we see in the book of Job that he uses means

But God is in control of these things God has a has a purpose when when Michael says well

This is this is a curse upon this person this person is a true believer Anything that touches their life

God has allowed to touch their life for a purpose And we're already told what that purpose is in Romans chapter 8 what to conform us to the image of Christ It's it's like an illustration from Colossians 3.

It says you have died and your life has been hidden with Christ in God It's like I take my wedding ring here.

You have died and your life has been hidden with Christ in God now

I dare you to touch my wedding ring without going through those two hands you can't do it and so the great promise of Sanctification for the believer is that no matter what happens to me

God has a purpose in it because it could not touch me Given where my life is hidden were it not

God's purpose that it touched me now the means By which it comes to me is always important I mean we've we've made a distinction between someone who secretly begins to abuse drugs or something like that While continuing to proclaim to be a

Christian that we're not talking about those types of situations here we're talking about people who can honestly look at their lives and say other than the the abiding sin that all of us experience and Not having a full knowledge of God and things like that.

There was not any particular Sin that has brought this about and yet everything that happens to us whether it is our blessing or whether it is our suffering is

Designed by a loving Heavenly Father to conform us to the image of Christ and we cannot look at somebody else and say wow

God must love that person more than it loves me Because they he's blessed them with health and the ability to do all these things and I haven't gotten that therefore

There must be a difference in God's love. That's where I say. It's the massive Yes, you can

I've asked you why not? Yeah, I mean when I think of that woman gay that called in yes I'm thinking about the person that says well

I love God and I have those same conditions and I'm not healed But I'm also thinking about the person that heard it and faith came alive and for the first time they realized

I could be healed I've just thought God sent this to me for some reason I could be healed and they get healed as a result of it

But if everything that comes my way is sent by God then how do you deal with Ephesians 6 and spiritual warfare and first Peter 5 resists the devil and Jacob the fourth chapter

We were told to resist the evil one. There is attack There are things that come Paul said he wanted to go to Thessalonians and and Satan hindered him

I'm not to receive everything Satan sends my way and there are things sent by Satan Jesus sent his disciples out to heal the sick drive -out demons.

There was authority given Recognizing that these were intrusions Joseph learned the answer a long long time ago.

Joseph is sold into slavery by his brothers God has to restrain his brothers from killing him He is falsely accused put in prison forgotten while in prison all the rest of those things and in that suffering

That was his that unjust suffering was his there is a man who learned that his God Loved him despite all the context around him and eventually delivered him from all those things

He saw that they were means that God used my answer to you is Satan We resist Satan we fight against Satan not because he's an extra power outside of God.

He is under God's control He cannot do anything that God does not allow him to do But we are called out of our love to God to fight for what is good to fight for what is honoring to him and the only reason that that would be a problem for a reformed person like me is if you assume that we have to have a knowledge of every element of God's decree and Act upon that which we do not we are given his prescriptive will in his law, which says to do what is right

Okay, and we haven't answered the questions from the emails, but James from Birmingham welcome to the program and far away

Good evening. I'm very interested to hear what's been told about the perfect will of God I Had schizophrenia for 26 years before the

Lord Jesus enabled me to deliver myself and I believe that I could have come out of this

Condition very much sooner had there been an insistence by brothers and sisters to pray me through But I do believe in all this at the perfect will of God To keep me in that prison house for 26 years

Was something he wanted to do to give me treasures in darkness

That I may then go on to help other people with the same condition So I want to just mention to our dear brethren that the church needs to rise up to see that there is

Healing through deliverance. We have not really got a hold of this there are many people who need healing or are sick in their minds and And in their spirits and they need actually

Deliverance to bring about the healing but I take on board what you say about the perfect will of God I'm happy that I lost 26 years that God could actually

Feed into my heart a vision of himself and the compassion for those who have the same condition that I had

Thank you very much. There's there's some real depth in that question I want to put that to Michael again in terms of you know

The Lord taking quite a long time and in healing. Yeah again, I can base nothing

In terms of theology on her experience except to say it reaffirms That whatever is meant for evil or destruction

God can use for good Did he will the 26 years James would say? Yes, I would say

I don't know but he worked through it there are many things that happen in Scripture God said he was against or not pleased with the reason the

Corinthians were sick and some Died was because of disobedience not because of a divine decree and they were told to repent and there would be life and healing

But in this case, I rejoice that this dear saint of God has grown and learned things

That only could have been learned through that. That's the mystery of redemption The cross in itself is a terrible thing but it's what

God used to save and and then with that the revelation that we do have authority in Jesus that there is a time when we stand up and we we say no and I was wondering though if the question about how come there's not more healing and why is our survival rate with cancer?

We can go Statistics, but let's go just address that quickly I've written

I wrote in 1991 a book called whatever happened to the power of God is the charismatic Church slain in the spirit or down for the count

Saying that we should be seeing much more happening that we're only seeing a fraction of what we're supposed to I Believe one reason for that is our general distance from God and and our lack of faith and obedience

I believe another thing could be the way we take care of ourselves If I need to lose some weight get in better shape

I can't expect God to miraculously make up the difference and then in our own midst where we're not dependent on Miracles and we're dependent on medical science and we go there so quickly.

I think there's often something in our mentality I would say this if you'll go to Third world countries where it's either the witch doctor or Jesus You'll see the people going to Jesus are getting healed and living much more healthier lives than the ones going to the witch doctor

And and also I think statistically we've had we've had doctors here who've done the studies

Statistically if those that are of faith communities the stats are much better Just it's a general those being prayed for in hospitals, etc.

Yeah, I'm living by the word just taking off the list now Whatsoever you ask in my name

Matthew 11 124 and and how do you measure the level of faith?

They were the early email? Oh, they were yeah and I really wanted to get that second one because obviously, I believe asking anything

Christ's name is asking according to the will of God because that's even what Jesus Christ himself did and That requires self -denial taking up the cross and and really the reason that what we ask in Christ's name comes to play it comes to pass is because we have become so much one with the will of God And so much of that of that teaching of that text is for you to get your desires

Rather than for you to be made in the image of Christ and therefore your will and God's will are

One thing that's why you see those things happening But the second one is really what got me and that is you say these these people who have endured for so long how do you know that they really do have faith and I was

I was Taken aback by the question quite honestly because it's not that I am somehow a

Given the divine ability to detect faith These are individuals who in the midst of severe trial and and severe difficulty

Continue to glorify Jesus Christ continue in the faith They do not complain against God and question his goodness and I would submit that someone who endures patiently

The suffering that these individuals have endured I'm thinking of one particular individual who ran a website for Reformed Baptists He did the work in a chair using a blowpipe

All he could move was his mouth and he ran this website and a mail server for Reformed Baptists to share our prayer requests amongst our churches using a all he could do is use a blowpipe blowpipe to to do this and I look at someone like that and I know a number of people like this.

I Wish I had their faith. I wish I had their acceptance of God's providence in their life and their love for Christ and the fact that they have been

You know When we get to heaven, I'm not gonna like when they get to heaven I'm not gonna see them because I'm gonna be too far back and they're gonna be too far forward

In the throng around the throne you measure that faith by the godly life that they live and so many are so quick to protest against God's goodness and question

God's goodness and When someone can go through that and not question God's goodness and revel in his love

I don't know what you call it, but I call it faith call it Job Gordon tweets texts emails

Lots and lots coming in the tweets are certainly active tonight Kofi believes for dr.

Brown's just dancing around the question that he asked Kyle says if it's the will of God to be sick

Don't go to the doctors Aaron says I don't think there are healers in the church like dr.

Like dr. White It's clear. God chooses to heal whoever he chooses

Matthew says to believe the Lord is He believes the Lord still heals but it's got nothing to do with the gift of healing and Kyle says we serve the

Living God and from Genesis to Revelation We see him healing the sick through the prayers of his people

JT says healing in the Bible is always a gift to the recipient Never teaches was a class of men who are healers and if you wanted one question from this section

Tim, it would be the whole point of if Specific people have the gift of healing

Where do we put in the question of a point that the Bible talks about of laying on of hands?

Where does that fit in in the context of healing? very much just quickly write that down and I Want to go to one of my questions first on you know

It is is there a difference between suffering for the Lord's sake blessed are you when you're persecuted from my name's sake?

and suffering There can be overlap for sure We recognize there can be deprivation torture starvation and imprisonment and things like that and physical sickness can come from it

But if you if you physical sickness the fact that they're blessed for actually suffering the the

New Testament Statement repeatedly about suffering has to do with suffering for the gospel I mean if we had time

I'd go through almost every book of the New Testament and quote the verses that talk about persecution Opposition for the gospel, that's what we're to rejoice in that's how the prophets were treated previously now

Look, if you go through the Psalms You'll see the Psalms crying out for healing and saying that when God forgave him he was healed because sickness came as a punishment

We see sickness as a covenant curse in Deuteronomy 28 severe illnesses not all sickness

Blessing for suffering for the net for the sake of the gospel, right? If I'm physically sick if I get run down from overwork that that that is not

Suffering on account of the gospel if if God forbid I get in the car accident And now

I have to go through rehab that have this the common lot of the human race now

There's blessedness on enduring it with a godly attitude. There's blessedness in the midst of trial to praise

God But the blessing for suffering we misuse and misinterpret to say well, I'm suffering for the gospel.

That's why I have this That's why that no That's the common lot of the human race or it could be specific satanic attack result of disobedience or not caring for ourselves

But Jesus is quite explicit when he pronounces the blessed words in Matthew 5 10 through 12 and elsewhere through the

Gospels throughout the New Testament Suffering for the gospel is rejection persecution opposition because of our identification with Jesus.

Okay The questions that came in can you pick up by the way? Agree that Pascoe generally that is how it is utilized in the

New Testament. You can make a very strong case for that That's why I focused upon Paul's statement in regards to us the

Naya and the connection with Timothy. Yeah, okay Yeah, I was just trying to pick up that there was sometimes a blessing blessing, but I agree

It's connected to you know for the sake of the gospel From the questions. Have you got a good memory on the questions that came in?

Well, you know, it's interesting I actually wanted to try to fix one of the statements because very quickly

Someone on Twitter was quoted. I happen to have my phone and I saw I saw the tweet Yeah, it was

Douglas who had called in I happen to know who Douglas is in London I jokingly say actually lives in Indianapolis.

But anyways What he was actually asking was a good question that maybe maybe

Michael could answer and what he was saying is he had asked About if the New Testament is normative in the tweet

He actually said then where is the regulative principle as to how this activity is to be?

Dealt with in the church, where does the New Testament give us that future outlook as to how it's to be?

Regulated and I would add to his question because he wasn't just simply saying you were dancing around He appreciated your response

But he was saying this isn't this is where I was going and he didn't answer that part And I would add to it and I think this is a good a good question to ask

Since there isn't that there isn't that why we have so many of the problems we have I mean so much of what you have to do to try to maintain your position is to Trying to have to distance yourself from the abuses that are there

But isn't it because we don't have anything in the New Testament that tells us this is how you're to regulate

This is how you're to recognize false healings from true healings and false healers from true healers and things like that You see where the issue is yeah,

I see the issue my point would be that life in the spirit should be normative and That there's the other abuse of the lack of this the lack of the presence of God in our meetings the lack of the manifestation

Of the gifts in our meetings having a form of godliness, but denying its power in a slightly different context to use that so the the specific

Instructions we get and I did answer it are found in a passage like first Corinthians 12 through 14

It doesn't give every detail any more than we have every detail think of this of exactly what church leadership should look like We've got a thousand different models for that and then you have authority abuses because there's a certain flexibility that has to work across culture

But we should see in a normative way Prophecy tongues revelation healing and we should recognize that that those that are used like this should have an outlet for their gifts

But the exact way if I'm supposed to think that on a Tuesday at 8 a .m

This happens on a Wednesday at 7 p .m. This happens. That's beyond New Testament life My description is very clear in the

New Testament is it shouldn't be connected to money and yes You know, there are examples with Paul in Acts, you know

And then people who introduced destructive heresies because of their greed and that's what that is abuse

So the warnings are there but maybe the more positive instructions aren't there. Well Honestly, I would follow up at that point because the to make

Corinth normative I think is a problem. I know you do that. I think we disagree on this issue Because Corinth had some serious problems that the other other churches did not have

So to make them normative at that point but I but I think the the point from his perspective is when you look at the pastoral epistles where Paul is writing to The next generation, so we're looking beyond the apostolic period and looking at the next generation

There's nothing there about these very issues that causes so much of a difficulty in being able to determine

How these things are to be exercised? That's that's the issue. I think he's right I see just as many issues just in terms of ecclesiology leadership all the other things that you would say he addresses

I see constant conflicts abuses divisions within churches how to do this how to do that But but these these are lack of scriptural teaching is due to very often and ignorance

Or a difference of interpretation of what we do with those particular scriptures But I would point this out

Paul urges Timothy of to fight the good fight based on the prophetic words given to him Therefore that's that's an important matter the ongoing gift of prophecy

He speaks of a gift that was given him through the laying on of hands now. I'm reading that next generation I'm expecting his hands are laid on me gifts are going to be conferred

I'm looking for the gift of prophecy to operate so because everything is not repeated doesn't mean it's not normative

I still see these things as ongoing they're taught elsewhere doesn't have to repeat everything But it is definitely a pneumatic life that Paul speaks of in the pastoral

Okay, Joan Welcome to the debate Hello, I just want to say

That I agree with dr. Brown that healing is for today

God provided it He provided for it, and it's written in James 513

But God has the prerogative to do as he will when he will how he will because he's

God and Another thing I would like to stress is that Jesus said

I am come that they might have life and life more abundantly and Sickness is not real abundant life

So God did make provision for sicknesses to be healed and for dr.

James he mentioned that God gave Paul a thorn in the flesh to humble him

God didn't give Paul that it was a messenger from Satan to profit him, but God used it for Humbling Paul, and that's what

I want to see. Thank you Okay, and I think James could you want to answer that point about the messenger from Satan right again?

I believe very firmly. I have to believe very firmly that God uses means and Why would

Satan do something to Paul to keep him from boasting he wants Paul to boast he wants to trip him up Clearly while it is a messenger from Satan to buffet him

Here is one of those places where as in Job as in Genesis 50 as in Isaiah chapter 10 as in Acts chapter 4

And I'll just use Acts chapter 4 as a perfect example. You have what we call compatibilism.

That is God's purpose in And man's activities are brought together in Acts chapter 4 can

I interrupt just to say that? We'll be going into our closing statement so after you finish this

I'm going to give you the clothes to the first closing statement I'll be very brief then so we have plenty of time in Acts chapter 4

You have the church praying and recognizing in the crucifixion of Jesus you had

Pilate you had Herod yet the Romans yet the Jews yet all these different people involved and yet They did what

God's purpose and had predestined to take place and so Satan was the one that is used

But that does not indicate that He's outside of God's God's control right so just just to say we're gonna have two closing statements now

We're going to not get past an hour a minute and a half, and then we'll go back to Gordon But we'll start with James well very briefly.

I first of all want to thank math Matthew hi Matthew Michael for the Spirit with which we've been able to do this

We were talking during the break that this is a subject that has tremendous Pastoral implications to so many of the people in the audience that we can't even know and so some of you may notice it seemed a little more

Aggressive last evening than then this evening, but I think it's because we both recognize The audience and and how it has to be handled so I thank him for that My bottom line to borrow to steal a copyrighted phrase from Michael My bottom line is that God is free in the matter of healing

That he is the only healer that there is anyone who is healed is healed by God's power even if they're not a

Christian They owe God for the extension of grace that they receive but the point is he does so freely and that there are times

In fact many times where it is in the experience of weakness that his power is made full in us

And that weakness includes bodily weakness and so if you as a Christian are suffering do not question God's love for you

Recognize that he will be with you even in the midst of that suffering And that's my bottom line.

All right. Thank you And John, oh, sorry James Thanks for your sensitivity as well and Tim for hosting this

I Affirm what James just said no matter what you're going through You need to be very conscious of God's love and you need to be conscious of the fact that he can conform you to the image

Of Jesus through this and I'm heartened by the fact that James said yes We pray for the sick and yes, we've seen

God heal. I want to encourage you to do that more I want to encourage you to pray and ask

God to heal with expectation I'd review the fact that gifts of healing is spoken of in 1st Corinthians 12 are clearly something that God has deposited in the body that should continue right until the end of the age that the breaking in of the kingdom brings with it healing and Miracles that Jesus is the will of God and living color that God heals in his compassion

And that if you'll just do a study through scripture read through the Bible Repeatedly and just look at what it says about sickness and healing you'll see sickness in and of itself is a negative

God can work Through it, but in and of itself It is a negative healing in and of itself is a positive and God reveals himself to Israel is not

I'm the Lord your smiter and sickness giver but to his obedient people I am the Lord your healer and it's expressed through Jesus is

God free to do whatever he wants Of course he is he's our sovereign God, but he's revealed his will in his word

Yeah Thank you very much And I can just say it's been a great privilege just to be sitting

Listening to you making notes, and I look forward to going through them myself, and I hope you as the audience also enjoyed

This very deep and special discussion on the gift of healing so I'm back

It's back to Gordon just to close out the show Tim I wanted to give a final word to our viewers dr.

Mike pastor Mike I should say in Colorado says thank you revelation TV dr. Brown and dr.

White for being willing to discuss these issues It's very helpful and edifying God does heal today.

That's the amazing God that we serve We hope that you'll be blessed and continue to grow in him.

Thank you so much for watching our debate tonight Thank you so much to our panel and especially to dr. White and to dr.

Brown until the next time Thank you for being with us. God bless. Bye. Bye Well, I'm just being told we've got some more minutes

Let me just finish I had one email, but I wanted to share with you. It's this it's from Lucinda She says hello

I remember reading Jennifer Reese Larkin but he let woman who was healed after years in a wheelchair

And she said at the end of her books that she tried everything to get healed But in the end

Jesus just healed her one day at a meeting God heals and I pray that he'll heal you of the sicknesses that you're from Thank you for being with us.