Is Divine Healing for Today? Part 2

Debate Introduction and Audience Participation

Hello and welcome back to part two of our debate tonight on healing, where the subject is, is the gift of healing for today? Mediating is Tim Vince and either side of him are Dr Michael Brown and Dr James White.

And for the last hour they've had the opportunity of putting some of the arguments, putting some of the points concerning scripture on this important subject. Now it's your opportunity to come back to them and say your points and ask them questions.

And already many of you have been doing that with emails and texts and Twitters and tweets that have come in. We're going to be also opening the phone lines and there'll be an opportunity if you ring for some of you to be able to speak to them direct and ask them your question.

Let me just say some of the tweets that have come in. Brent he wrote and said, great opening statement. David Betts said a similar thing. He says these are two of the best opening statements I've ever heard.

Well done. And Honoria Latin said Ephesians four is so misunderstood. So misunderstood. As you can imagine, lots of you have got comments on the things that we're discussing tonight. Kaz Lavida said he is in, he is in, in us both to will and to work.

It is God who does the healing and not us. He still heals, but according to his grace, not according to our desires. And Joan wrote and said that the last debate she agreed with Dr. Michael concerning the things to do with predestination.

But tonight she's in agreement with Dr. James regarding healing. She says, as I too have seen miraculous healings, but I've also sat at the bedside of godly people who love God who did not get healed.

Questions About Healing, Greater Works, and Hebrews 13:8

Now to some of the questions that have been coming in. Quite a number are coming in and saying, how is it that we do seem to hear of genuine healings through the Lord Jesus Christ in more simple, less materialistic societies than our own, says Rebecca.

And a similar theme is in a text that has come in from Mike, who says, why is it that the poor are more receptive to healing than the rich? E .g., the reports of healings are far more widespread in Africa than in many Western nations.

And her question is, why, Mike's question, sorry, my question is, when Jesus said greater works than these will be done, what did he mean? And just one more question from Carl in Spain. He says, Hebrews 13 .8, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

It's often quoted when discussing this subject to defend the continuing nature of apostolic or otherwise miraculous healing. And particularly, Dr. White, doesn't this contradict your position? If not, what does it mean?

Tim, they're just a few of the points, back to you.

Okay, I think I've noted them all down. And even during the break, we had some other questions to add to it. Jesus, the same yesterday, today and forever. James. Going with the last one first.

Absolutely. Recognizing my memory is not good enough to remember it after that anyway, so, okay.

You know, interestingly Let's go for the other one as well, greater works than these shall be done. Okay, just add to it.

Saying that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever does not mean that Jesus Christ is going to do everything the same way that he's always done it in the past. Again, I think this is just a false assumption.

The text isn't talking about that. In fact, in the context, the very next verse is, do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, etc., etc., which I would apply to a lot of word faith teachers, interestingly enough.

But saying that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever is talking about his nature, not how he's dealt with people. Because the reality is, Jesus dealt with his people in one way under the old covenant, a different way under the new covenant.

And so you could destroy all distinctions in the way that God has dealt with his people by quoting that text and saying, well, he always has to do it through the use of the law or through Sabbath observances or whatever else.

That obviously is not what the writer to the Hebrews is talking about there. And when we talk about John chapter 14, and I'm glad the question was brought up because I kept putting in my notes and then time wouldn't allow me to get to it.

Interestingly enough, John 14 through 16 is the section where Jesus is talking about the coming of the spirit. The first application of everything in that text has to be to the apostles themselves immediately.

Then you have to be very careful in making application beyond that to those who believe because of their message, that is to the rest of the church. But when you talk about greater things, what greater things did, as ever recorded in the New Testament, that the apostles did than Jesus did?

I mean, that's a question everybody has to answer. If you're gonna say, greater things than Jesus did. Jesus raised the dead. Jesus did all sorts of these things. And when we look at any of the things that the apostles did, they don't seem to eclipse in any way the miracles of Jesus.

So what is that text talking about? I would like to suggest, and I think most people outside of Western cultures automatically sort of gather onto this. And I say this with all seriousness, that the perseverance under trial, persecution, and suffering that has been seen in the saints of God down through the ages, whereby they are conformed to the image of Christ.

They die to self. They die to this world. They put to death their members and become like the very Son of God because of their union with Him, is the greatest miracle that has ever taken place. It involves the incarnation of the Son of God.

It involves His sacrifice on the cross. It involves the ministry of the Spirit of God in our lives. That is the greatest miracle that could possibly ever take place. And I think we have to consider those as possibilities because the Bible itself does not record for us the apostles doing anything more than what Jesus did in that way.

So I don't think it is greater in the sense of flashier. I think it is greater in the sense of its enduring effect because Lazarus, risen from the dead, thanked the Lord. He died later. And so it is the endurance that makes it greater.

Brilliant. And the Lord did say to Thomas, you know, blessed are those who believe without seeing. You know, and Thomas had to see the risen Lord. Maybe you don't necessarily have to see to believe. But other questions are here.

Now, I note that you can give empirical examples from both sides. But the lady who said about, you know, illness by the bedside, I want to bring this forward, as it were, before we go to the other two questions.

We were talking in the break about, you know, what do you do with someone who's in need of surgery? And Jehovah's Witnesses and the parents, you know, who won't allow their children to have a blood transfusion comes to mind.

What does a faith ministry do in that situation?

Medical Care, Divine Healing, and the Role of Doctors

Sure. Let me just say in very brief response to the previous points and then to come to that specific question. Although I agree exegetically, Hebrews 1380 is not primarily making a statement about whether to expect healing.

I think it's only natural when people read the Gospels. And Jesus said, if you've seen me, you've seen the father. It's the will of God in action. He's moved by compassion that we can really expect to see similar things happening.

And then John 14. I look at this in the larger context of the chapters there. John 15 is one of the most important personal verses we all take in terms of abiding in the vine. Surely not just for the apostles and whosoever believes whoever believes the Greek has used that exact same phrase a number of times in John's gospel.

It's always universal. As for greater works, Acts two. Let's start there. Three thousand converted added to the body in a single day after a single message that never happened in the ministry of Jesus.

That would be one example right there. But but as far as just on his other example,.

That's how great it is that people can endure.

It is wonderful. It's terrible in great testimony to to God's power in a human being. And it's clearly by his grace that people do it, not by their own strength. I don't see that in terms of the greater works, that vocabulary of works, the way it's used, even in the very previous verse or elsewhere in John 10.

I don't see it referring to it. That does not seem to be a work there. So I agree it's a great demonstration of grace. We've worked with persecuted Christians and had friends martyred for the gospel. So we take our hats off to them.

I just wouldn't see that specifically as what Jesus is saying. But but as far as someone comes down gravely ill, FF Bosworth, who is a mentor to A .W. Tozer, said that that if sickness is being sent by God and he's afflicting people with sickness, then doctors and hospitals and nurses earn rebellion against his will because they're trying to get rid of the will of God from people's lives.

Rather, if we look at sickness as an affliction, as an attack, as part of being in a fallen world, then doctors are on God's side as ministers of healing. Even with God saying, I need on our effect on Exodus 15, 26.

I'm the Lord, your healer. We see in Exodus 21 of two men fight and and and there's an injury that the other man has to see that the person is thoroughly healed, which has normally been taken to me and pay the physician's fee.

We see it on the basis. Yeah. So we see in Jeremiah, the eighth chapter, the prophet saying is, is there no physician? There is an Obama and Gilead. We see in Isaiah one that there's simple treatment, pouring wine and wounds or setting of bones or things like that.

Luke, the doctor in the New Testament, Paul's advice to Timothy. So I look at medical science as a gift from God on the same side when it comes to King Asa, whose name is short, most likely for a sale or a sale, which would be Yahweh healed or God healed.

We see in first Second Chronicles, 14 and 15, that he moved the nation to seek God. He was attacked in an overwhelming way. It looked hopeless. He cried out to God. God delivered him. The same thing happens in the 16th chapter.

Instead of looking to God, he looks to the arm of flesh. The prophet comes and rebukes him. He throws the guy in prison. Then he gets terribly ill. So he has been known for seeking the Lord, seeking the Lord, seeking the Lord.

Now, instead, he leans on the arm of flesh. And even in his severe illness, he doesn't seek the Lord, but rather consults with physicians, which I understand the Hebrew idiom to mean consulted with pagan physicians.

So his sin was not trusting in God. It is not a sin to go to doctors. Now, if God judged someone with sickness because they were in sin and rebellion and that person, rather than humbling themselves and praying, went to a witch doctor, that would be the equivalent of what Asa did.

But for a Christian to say God's on the side of healing and health, therefore, medical science is a good thing. Wonderful. However, I'd also agree with what James said. Our tendency to immediately go to the to the bottle, to the medicine, to the doctor is something that many don't have as an alternative, which is why many people in poorer countries, they recognize their need.

They don't have access to doctors. They're much quicker to lean on the Lord and trust him. We can be so quick to go to doctors. But by all means, thank God for medical science. It's on the side of healing.

It's on God's side.

Right. I didn't think we'd get those other questions answered. But that's the skill of our folk here in the studio. We'll go back to Gordon for emails, texts, Twitters.

Tim, thanks so much. As you can imagine, quite a number of people are writing in and talking about the miraculous healing that they've experienced. I don't intend to read all of them, but let me just read one.

This is from Gay, who says, I was diagnosed with hyperthyroidism for over 21 years. Also had a viral infection, kidney stones and cyst in my left ovary. I received Jesus as my Lord and saviour. And last year, by the blood of Jesus, I'm healed completely.

She says, I totally embrace, believe and receive. I am the Lord that healeth thee. Exodus 15, 26. So thank you for all of you who are writing in with such testimonies as that. Facebook is being busy, Tim.

Margaret on Facebook says, I believe God heals through prayer and faith. But the gift of healing stopped with the apostles. Whilst Angela says, we can only pray, thy will be done. But Chris, on the other hand, says there are so many reports of Jesus healing throughout the world, even people being raised from the dead.

So I'm sure the gift of healing is still for today. Now, let me just put some questions that have come in. This is from Peter, who thanks us at Revelation for organising the debate. And he says, you often hear Christians, including, he says, some people on Revelation TV, quoting verses like Isaiah 53, verse 5 and 1 Peter 2, 24, by his stripes, we're healed and relating it to sickness.

And he's saying, could our panel say, do these verses refer exclusively to physical healing or are they to do with Christ's work in redemption? A very simple one liner text here, which says 1 John 5, verses 14 to 15, is the most clear instruction that we need to understand healing.

And Bernard says, keep it simple. And if I ask you one more, how's this one for, it's for Dr. White and it says, I would like to ask Dr. White whether he will pray for the sick, for divine healing, like it happened at the beautiful gate in Acts 3.

And on what basis will he do it if he will? Over to you, Tim. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Now, is it fair to go straight to you, James, as I went to you last time? I don't think they were quite listening to your opening statement, but Isaiah 53 and 1 Peter 2, verse 24.

Sure. I focused on this in my doctoral dissertation. First, let me give the simple answer and then the more in-depth answer. 1 Peter 2 is primarily emphasizing spiritual healing. You were like sheep going astray.

You've returned to the shepherd and bishop of your souls by whose wounds you were healed. The emphasis there is on spiritual healing. What I would say is the the prophetic vision was the whole person wholly healed, that there was not this strict dichotomy that made between physical healing and spiritual healing.

And that was the vision of the prophets. Therefore, the language is carrying sickness and pain, which would which not be exclusively taken in a spiritual way. What's interesting is that Isaiah 53 is quoted in Matthew eight, Matthew eight, 16 and 17, that Jesus drives out demons and heals the sick to fulfill what was written in Isaiah 53.

Surely he's born. Our sickness has carried our pains. But when you look at that passage in Isaiah 53, he was carrying our sicknesses and pains when he hung on the cross. So how does Matthew quote it there?

Matthew looks at the whole of Jesus ministry in a vicarious way that he enters into our world and takes on his shoulders our suffering, our pain until he goes to the root of all human suffering, namely sin, and nails it to the cross.

As a result of that, as the benefits of the cross make their way in our lives, the ultimate benefits are in eternity. But many do come our way, not just with spiritual healing, but with physical healing and deliverance as well.

So I see Isaiah 53 as broader. The whole man wholly healed the application in first Peter to focusing on spiritual healing. OK, could I ask, could I could I ask a follow up on that? However, real practical application here.

Perfectly agreed. First Peter to very spiritual application, salvation, et cetera, et cetera. I had this happen as a as a chaplain. And so I want to know how you would respond to this. I know how I responded to it, obviously.

But people who have heard a teaching that healing is in the atonement, it is always God's will, et cetera, et cetera. What about the person who hears that message? They hear the message to repent and to believe.

And they assume that because of that, to truly believe in Jesus means you must experience healing. And yet they have some some disease. They don't experience that and therefore cannot believe that they've actually experienced salvation as well.

What do you say to them from your perspective? A very important question. And and I think we have to be very diligent when we speak about healing to minister to all the needs and to speak to those who are not healed and to encourage faith in the midst of suffering.

What I what I proclaim loudly and clearly in the gospel is that Jesus came to save us from our sins, that Jesus came to deliver us from from guilt and from our destructive life so that we now live a life in obedience to God.

That's the gospel. That's the fundamental purpose of the cross. That's what happens when we repent and believe forgiveness of sins, a new life and obedience to the Lord. I see there are benefits that accrue to us through the cross.

I see redemption and restoration and salvation as all part of the same wonderful stream, even with the word sozo, which Luke uses in just a couple of chapters for forgiveness of sins, deliverance from demons, raising from the dead and healing of the sick.

So he is the savior from all these different situations. So I would clearly distinguish forgiveness of sins from everything else and then say the benefits of the cross can be accrued to us by faith. For example, there are people who are mentally disturbed and through relationship with God and peace coming.

They're actually delivered from that. There are people we hear it all the time, especially evangelism in third world countries, as people cry out to Jesus for salvation. They find themselves healed. But I would say the one thing is the guaranteed result of the cross that everyone experiences in this life.

And there are benefits that that we can experience. I see it all purchased there and available through there. But I would make that distinction. And if anyone had that way of thinking that, well, if I'm not healed, if I'm not saved, I'd immediately cut that right at the root.

OK, James, just so that I'm consistent, the last question that came through, you know, would you pray for the sick as in Act three? And I would also just comment on gay's healing. You know, this is there a principle there that you remember gay?

She she was said she was completely healed. You know, if you believe and receive, I'd like you to comment on that.

In answer to the first question, again, the normative context in the New Testament is I'm an elder in a church. Therefore, members of my church, we pray for them in accordance with Jacob five. I suppose it's supposed to give points.

You got to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. But Jacob, since since we use other English names, Jacob is good enough. See, he disagreed with you there. I got you got you from the other side. But anyways, we do.

Obviously, I told the story of the fact that we prayed for the healing. We have another individual in our congregation who was healed after about 10 or 11 years of constant prayer for her in a chronic situation.

Obviously, I would make a distinction with the acts three because we're talking about apostle here and I don't claim to be an apostle. I claim to be an elder. So there I see a distinction between the two.

But one of the things that immediately crossed my mind when that email was read was what does and this is one of the reasons I asked a question I did, what does someone else with the exact same physical ailment listening in the audience think when they have in faith prayed for deliverance and have not been?

That is one of the things that concerns me about our discussion. And from my perspective, this is where the freedom of God and this is where we have a difference. Working out his will to sanctify each of his children in the way that he chooses.

I I look at there's a lady in our congregation that suffers from from migraine headaches. I've had a few of those things in my life. And my goodness, I don't think I could be the way she is and function the way she does.

If I had that kind of I just I call me a wimp if you want. But I just don't know how I could do that. And God has not yet chosen to free her despite the prayers of all of the saints for her. If she hears someone who is freed from that, what is the what is the what is the result of that if you don't have that concept that God is free to sanctify his children as he chooses to do the thing that's interesting?

We have someone on the line. So we'll come back to that because I have actually waited. I tried not to interrupt you on what you had to say. But Douglas, thank you for your patience. And please put your question to our guests.

Thank you very much. Congratulations.

My question is for Dr. Brown and actually is the book of Acts. It was mentioned in passing that part of regular body life. So my question is, how are we to view the book of Acts? Is the book of Acts a church or is it a blueprint for how church life is supposed to be now through the ages?

It's it's both. In other words, there are things that are there in terms of our sense of community, in terms of our expectation of the power of God coming, in terms of the gospel coming with power to bring conversion of individuals and masses that should be normative.

We should be seeing that as the gospel continues to spread around the world and in point of fact, many parts of the world as the gospel is spreading. The stories sound very reminiscent of the book of Acts.

As far as further blueprint, though, that's where we have to go to the parts of the New Testament that are specifically meant as a blueprint. So we want to see what worship services should be like or gatherings.

Well, Paul tells us about that in First Corinthians 14. We want to see about the ongoing operation of the spirit in our midst. We go there. First Corinthians 12 through 14. We want to understand other things about about church order and ministry requirements.

We go to the pastoral letters. So we want to take in the whole testimony of the New Testament. So we know certain things in Acts are unique and there is a certain establishing and there is a first first generation witness that's unique.

But other things in terms of God's ongoing presence and power and transformation of lives should be normative. And when we read that, it often drives me to my knees to say, Lord, where's the power of the gospel?

When we speak the word, where's the convicting power? Where's our dedication and prayer? Even the idea that there's often persecution for the faith. We see that through the New Testament. But acts is telling us, as Jesus often did, that it would be normative.

So there are aspects of it that are transitional, that are foundational. There are other aspects which are to be continued. And then we see how the whole thing is fleshed out in other parts of the New Testament.

James, anything to add on that? I want to ask a further question. I'm actually giving my opponent more time asking questions. But but this is so this is so important to me. You and I have both entered into the fray and the battle in standing for godliness in Western culture that seems to be absolutely in love with death and absolutely in love with anything that is opposed to God and to his ways, especially in regards to marriage and sexuality.

Both of us have done that. We'd love to have the opportunity of doing it with you at some point in the future. But here's my question. Do you see you just use the term normative? And yet we live in a culture that I think you would agree is under the judgment of God for its love of self and sin and its rejection of a tremendous amount of light.

Would you see that there would be something different in regards to the ministry of the spirit and what we would expect to see as the result of our preaching in a land that is under judgment over against a land where the gospel is going forth, deliverance is taking place from false idols and religions, you know, on the cusp of where the church is growing.

Could you see that there would be a difference in what the normative experience of the church would be here in a land under judgment over against that other context? Yes. And the idea, of course, yes, yes and no.

Yes, for sure. And that there are different contexts and and God does pour out his grace in certain ways where the gospel is first going and being established and the false gods are being destroyed and and false ideologies demolished.

And yes, I could see us bringing a prophetic witness of warning followed by judgment. I could see that happening at the same time. I want to be a man full of the spirit. I want to be a man that when I'm speaking, it's more than just my words.

I want it to be as we're speaking for righteousness. It's not just I have a political conservative view. So on that level, that's what I want to see normative in that sense. But will I expect to just say it at any given meeting, I'm going to lay hands on the sick now, they're going to be healed and that's going to be a sign.

There is a context for everything. But I would love to see at the end of a debate, say, on redefining marriage at a university that people come up and say, I'm undone, I'm shaken. Something's the matter.

And God manifesting his power in that way.

Just to say, Douglas, thank you very much for your phone call and your question. We'll go back to Gordon now for some more of your messages.

Reports of Healing, Isaiah 53, and 1 Peter 2:24

Tim, thank you so much. Emails and texts are simply flooding in, as you can imagine. And I'll just give you a flavour. So many questions we could be going on, I think, for a few hours tonight. Alex writes and says Mark 11, 24 tells me that whatsoever you ask in prayer.

And Alex says whatsoever includes healing. And Alex talks about somebody called Kenneth Haggins, who got a revelation of this verse and received his healing. He'd be interested to know what the panel think.

And then talking about healing today and the gift of healing, I guess this one's particularly towards Dr. Michael Brown. Tim is asking the question, why is it if the gift of healing is in the church, that the survival rate for cancer and similar such illnesses are no better for Christians than atheists or followers of other faith?

Somebody called Governor Hammond has written and said Dr. James claims he's witnessed people who've had a lot of faith, but were not healed. He says, I would like to know upon which basis does he measure the level of faith of these people?

How does he know whether these people have faith? In our own eyes, we could think we have faith, but in God's eyes, they don't.

Tim, back to you. Thank you. Three really good questions there. I want to slightly interject with this. I can see some crossover because James has asked a few times about acknowledging that it's God's will in an instance where someone is not healed.

You'll say it's God's will.

I don't know. Why go to the doctor then to try to get God's will off of that person? If I've concluded it's God's will for them to be sick, why get any medical care? So I know I've not concluded that because.

Extreme case of a faith, someone who's got a great ministry in healing. They die of an illness.

Everyone's prayed for them to be healed. I don't know what's happening behind the scenes. And it's wrong for me to make judgment. The Book of Job makes clear that when you see suffering, don't change your view of the person and say, well, you must be a sinner and then don't change your view of God and say, well, God must have sent it because neither of those things are right.

Right. But let me say this about sickness. That's really important here. I know people who have grown in God through being sick. I know others who have been utterly destroyed and decimated. Families decimated.

One of my dear friends has been in a hellish battle with severe cancer for years now. He was on his death store numerous times. It's a miracle he's even still alive, honestly. It has it has hindered him from touching so many people he wants to touch.

It has been such a brutal trial. He loved Jesus before. He loves Jesus now. He was living a godly life before. He's living a godly life now. This thing has been a curse, not a blessing. That's how Jesus often treated it.

Why didn't he just say to the multitudes that he was healing? Hey, this is sent by God to sanctify you. I say God can work through all these things. Romans 8 .28 is true. And all things God works for the good of those who love him.

But I put this one back to James in terms of, you know, of sickness and illness. You could attribute that to the the enemy of God.

Well, the God always uses means. And we see in the book of Job that he uses means. But God is in control of these things. God has a has a purpose. When when Michael says, well, this is this is a curse upon this person.

This person is a true believer. Anything that touches their life, God has allowed to touch their life for a purpose. And we're already told what that purpose is in Romans chapter eight. What? To conform us to the image of Christ.

It's like an illustration from Colossians three. It says you have died and your life has been hidden with Christ in God. It's like I take my wedding ring here. You have died and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.

Now, I dare you to touch my wedding ring without going through those two hands. You can't do it. And so the great promise of sanctification for the believer is that no matter what happens to me, God has a purpose in it because it could not touch me, given where my life is hidden.

Were it not God's purpose that it touched me. Now, the means by which it comes to me is always important. I mean, we've we've made a distinction between someone who secretly begins to abuse drugs or something like that while continuing to proclaim to be a Christian.

We're not talking about those types of situations here. We're talking about people who can honestly look at their lives and say, other than the the abiding sin that all of us experience and not having a full knowledge of God and things like that, there was not any particular sin that has brought this about.

And yet everything that happens to us, whether it is our blessing or whether it is our suffering, is designed by a loving heavenly father to conform us to the image of Christ. And we cannot look at somebody else and say, wow, God must love that person more than he loves me because they he's blessed them with health and the ability to do all these things.

And I haven't gotten that. Therefore, there must be a difference in God's love. That's where I say there's the massive difference. Can I ask James a question? Yes, you can. I've asked you, why not? Yeah.

I mean, when I think of that woman gay that called in. Yes, I'm thinking about the person that says, well, I love God. I have those same conditions and I'm not healed. But I'm also thinking about the person that heard it and faith came alive.

And for the first time, they realized I could be healed. I've just thought God sent this to me for some reason. I could be healed. And they get healed as a result of it. But if everything that comes my way is sent by God, then how do you deal with Ephesians six and spiritual warfare and first Peter five resist the devil and Jacob, the fourth chapter where we're told to resist the evil one?

There is attack. There are things that come. Paul said he wanted to go to the Thessalonians and Satan hindered him. I'm not to receive everything Satan sends my way. And there are things sent by Satan.

Jesus sent his disciples out to heal the sick, drive out demons. There is authority given, recognizing that these were intrusions. Very long question.

So James on the line, but a very simple response.

Joseph learned the answer a long, long time ago. Joseph is sold into slavery by his brothers. God has to restrain his brothers from killing him. He is falsely accused, put in prison, forgotten while in prison, all the rest of those things.

And in that suffering that was his, that unjust suffering, it was his. There is a man who learned that his God loved him despite all the context around him and eventually delivered him from all those things.

He saw that they were means that God used. My answer to you is Satan. We resist Satan. We fight against Satan, not because he's an extra power outside of God. He is under God's control. He cannot do anything that God does not allow him to do.