Q & A "Christ’s Voice to the Sexually and Relationally Broken" Sunday, September 30 2018 PM

tonight. Now next week, as Stephen has told me, it's going to be very hope -filled as we get to hear more about how we are, how we get to minister to folks who identify themselves in these ways.

And I know that I have in my hand several questions that ask that very thing.

And that really is ultimately, I think, why most of us are here is that we want to know how to do that better, more biblically, and have an understanding of how to do that.

So I may hold off on a couple of those questions.

And tonight we've been talking about the biblical foundations for how we identify ourselves as created in God's image, male and female.

And so I want to try to work on some of those questions first and foremost. One question here says, and I think this is referring to the four -column spreadsheet about the different, it says, why have

Christian, and this is in quotation marks, separated into two columns and not one where believers are in different stages of victory over homosexuality?

So I think the question is, why are we not looking at them in that progressive sanctification model?

Why are we having split into two different camps up there? Could you help us understand that? Yeah. So what's going on in the church, as is what we see in denomination, right?

We see that they're in the church at large, there are varying views and beliefs.

And what this does, this chart back here, is it helps when people are seeing predominant people and resources and what they're believing and why.

And it is to, the chart itself is to answer those questions for people, so we didn't really get into the detail of that.

But what's happening on the Christian side is basically the message of psychology that says that orientation is rarely something that changes in someone's life.

And there is a white paper specifically that's being used by Dr. Mark Yarhouse and others that are

Christian APA people that are saying to these theologians and leaders in the church that rarely orientation changes.

And so that column that is called conversion is there singling out that they're actually kind of truncating the power of the gospel.

They don't believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. They don't believe that, or I wouldn't say they don't believe, some don't believe, that the

Holy Spirit can do an inner working of actually changing the way a person views and feels and thinks about their attractions.

We got to remember, folks, the scripture specifically says that homosexuality, homosexual lust, is an unnatural desire.

It's unnatural. Heterosexual desire is God -given.

It is natural. And unfortunately, there are people that are communicating that it really isn't that big of a deal that we help people to overcome

SSA, same -sex attraction, which in fact, if somebody is left in that, they will be continuing in sin and lust.

And so there should be a trajectory that is the fourth column, which is the idea of transformation.

Did he leave anything left for y 'all to pick up there? But we're not advocating for trading homosexual lust for heterosexual lust.

Right. You know, it's like that isn't God's holy life. Instead, you know, you're putting off the thing that compels you towards sin, and you're putting on Christ, which causes us to grow and mature in righteousness.

And we're also not saying that for some people, depending on when they started their walk, that they will actually experience total freedom.

Some people actually will struggle till the day they die. But that's where we're sin abounds.

Grace does much more. Well, anybody here have kids or grandchildren?

I want to help them. Here's a question. How would you encourage Christians, starting families, to do their best to lead their children to believe biblically about this topic of homosexuality?

So as this topic is thrust more and more at younger and younger demographics, parents want to get ahead of the curve there and want to try to help biblically disciple their children.

And I suppose there's the discipleship, the teaching, and the instruction side of it. And what else would there be where Christian parents can help their kids with this?

Well, that is actually a question we get a lot. One of the most important things, even with children who are struggling or not, we as parents,

I learned this many years ago in a homeschool training thing. My wife and I homeschooled our children, which is as parents, we need to be admitting our own failure, making sure that we demonstrate a path of repentance by the way that we live our own lives, that we live a godly life, that our children see that we are being consistent.

And if we're being consistent, then that gives them hope for something for more change themselves.

And so that's really, I think, very important in regard to a child or somebody who's struggling with homosexuality, is that we continue to live an uncompromised godly life.

So and, you know, Robin and I've gotten older, I mean, we're looking at the six zero, and, and we've seen a lot of death in our family, and you never know when you're going to die.

And if we live a godly life for our children and grandchildren, you know, hopefully we're leaving them a legacy that they will remember the way that we lived our lives.

And that's so important for all of us who have gay identified loved ones. And I, I have gay identified loved ones to outside of my immediate family, and my bigger family, so painful.

Laura, did you want to add something? So I think that we all need to be all of us, everybody in this room to needs to be inoculated against the view that is coming at us that people don't change.

And particularly this thing can't change. And when, when we want to give hope in our own families,

Stephen gave a good point about becoming rooted and grounded in an identity in Christ, which is not just biblical fact, but identity that comes from a growing relationship with him.

One that says I can go to him when I'm dirty, and he can wash me clean.

One that can go to him with a candid confession, and say, I'm received, and I'm, and he empowers me for change.

And I think, you know, that when we're discipling our, our kids, or for that matter, everybody else's kids that I get to minister to, when we're discipling them, you know, there's, there's a value to the candor, like you just said, to being able to be candid enough to say people do fail, and, and, and we, we can insulate the ones that we love from being full of shame because of failure.

Because shame empowers the homosexual sin. That's my contribution.

The only thing that I would say to add to this, both offerings are excellent, is what you approve of your children are going to approve of.

And as parents, we are charged with keeping an eye at the gate, what comes into the gate.

So if we allow the immoral into the city, it will, it will influence the city at some point.

And we live in an environment that celebrates immorality on an ever -expanding basis daily.

And, and, and it's, and it's infiltrating everything. That's why social media is, is, is fraught with it.

That's why your emails have ads. TV is lowering its standards on, on what is morally acceptable.

So, you know, there's that aspect of it as well. I want to mention

Jim Farrington is our intern, but he's been around our ministry for about 10 years.

And so he's come on staff, but he has come out of homosexuality himself, and he has a gay identified child, and he helps minister in our parent, family, and friends group.

Right. And this is a, this is a topic. The, the parents that we, we minister to, they have their, you know, they, it's, it's not uncommon anymore for there to be a, a family member that is gay identified.

And the questions, what do we do? We have little ones. How do we handle this? How do we, you know, and the parents have to be really proactive in, in what they, how they allow that family member to influence those children.

And that's wisdom. It's not, it's not, you know, it's not meant to make the gay identified loved one out to be anything other than a loved one, but it is being able to teach your children to recognize right from wrong, good from evil, right?

We are charged with that. Whether it's a gay identified loved one or not, we still have that responsibility.

And you, you know, and, and, and it's also being led by the Holy Spirit. You know, if the word says, if we ask for wisdom, he'll give it.

I asked for one further comment, and that is, you know, the majority of the parents that we have, we minister to raised their children well, very well.

Put, put the word of God clearly in front of them, put authentic lives in front of them, lived exemplary, truly upright, not duplicitous

Christian lives. And, and yet some, this has entered into their homes as well.

And many of you, I'm sure know what it is to have a kid that went into rebellion too when you did your dead level best.

So it's not really, you know, can we guarantee, but I, you know, when we're talking about creating an atmosphere that says, okay, this is, this is the sacrificial side of love.

You know, we, we, we are open hearted in our ministry. We, we don't look at contempt with, at people who struggle.

You know, is the rule of love abounding in your hearts? That's a test that I have to pass, you know, at my own house.

But, but ultimately, you know, it's like, you know, are we, are we Godward in everything that we do?

Not, not religious, but our hearts on fire with Him. Well, I think there's a question here that you've been hitting around and maybe you could speak directly to it.

The question is this, how would you advise speaking to a family member who identifies as gay, but does not find identity in the love of God?

So I imagine that that means somebody who is identifying themselves as gay, but not at all religious or spiritual, not in relationship with God at all.

How do we speak with that person? And of course, I think the idea is that we, that we not lose the relationship at simultaneously also not losing the truth.

How do we do that? That's good. I'll begin. I got, everybody has good answers,

I'm sure. But one thing that we underscore over and over in our ministry and, and would be true for just preaching the gospel, we don't have to go after somebody's particular sin first.

And, and when somebody is already in that position where they're gay identified, and they may even be hostile towards the idea of, you know, homosexuality,

I'm a sinner. They probably know that. And so one of the most important things that we can do is to live it.

And to, to, to the best of our ability to continue in relationships so that we can be influential.

And we never stop praying for somebody. I, you know, I found out historically later that I had all these people praying for my salvation.

And, and so but living a godly witness, I love the quote that's attributed to Augustine or St.

Francis, whoever you see in church history. And that is, you know, preach the gospel all day long.

And if necessary, use words. Now I'm quick to come beside my other brothers and sisters that would say, that's impossible.

That's not total correct gospel truth. And I would say, that's right. We are to preach the gospel.

They're not going to hear unless we hear. But it's so important to be that example. And, and in being that example to give away a segue to be able to speak to truth, not just the homosexuality, but that Jesus Christ died for all of sin, for every motive, every intention of the heart, that's actually evil and wicked.

And that we need a savior. I guess

I answered this. Nobody else would. Amen. I will probably close out on this on this question.

Are you aware of the audit has been published by Living Out? Yes. And then how would you respond to that set of questions?

And do you think that those are accurate indicators of what they call biblical inclusivity? And if they people don't know what that is, if you could kind of fill them in?

Well, part of the problem, okay, so the audit has come from a ministry out of England that has

Tim Keller and his wife embracing it, bringing it over to the

United States, within the PCA, and the gospel coalition churches and the

PCA, that's actually the more biblical, traditional branch of the

Presbyterians. And the audit is this idea of LGBTQ people are, and in their words, sexual minorities.

So the reason for the audit to begin with is on a shaky foundation, based upon Mark Yarhouse's work and the idea that we do as a church need to understand that people's orientation do not change.

So that's part of the problem with the audit. Now, there are actually some good things in the audit in itself, about how we're handling souls and people.

But there are some some things within the audit, the terminology like, the one thing that bothers me the most,

I think was like question number nine, which is that we're going to allow practicing homosexuals to come in.

Yeah, it says here, church family members inclusive share meals, homes, holidays, festivals, money, children, children with others from differing backgrounds and life situations to them.

So it's asking true, false, or not sure about an audit of how your church is going to handle this.

I'm sorry, folks, this is ridiculous. And, and I've come out of this, there is no way on God's green,

God's green planet, that I'm going to allow practicing homosexuals to have time with my children, and to advocate that in the church of Jesus Christ.

And, and as pastors, we have to say, you know, the first is to protect the children from any kind of LGBTQ chaos or thinking, let them grow up in in a place of, of, you know, where their innocence isn't distorted or destroyed.

And, and so there's just some, there's some real problematic ways in which some of the wording is on this.

And so we do have problems with this. And at the same time, there's some things about the way that we think and bully people that is wrong, and we should have an audit and understanding in our church that's not the way that we treat people.

So this, this is, this is a little disturbing, honestly, with some of what's going on here, because the way that I see it, it's really dumbing down holiness.

And they'll even say it this way, you know, not, you know, freedom from homosexuality is, is not heterosexuality, but holiness, but a lot of times when people are saying that they're not talking about a holiness that means freedom from an internal world of struggle.

They're just kind of leaving people in their struggle. That's not holiness, or that we're going to invite the world into the church.

The church is the ecclesia, this is the fellowship. So yes, this may be a good way to handle some ways of community groups or designated adults that reach out to gay people to bring them in to share the gospel.

And that's why every church leadership really does need to do a really good job at thinking through this stuff and have policies in place.

Because then once you bring the gay people into the church, and you've actually set up the audit to do so, what happens when the, the, the, the two women come up and say, we demand to have our, our gay wedding in this church?

Folks, it's going to happen. So we have to have policies in place that are not so inclusive that we cause problems for us in the church.

And so there's some things in this have not been well thought of. I mean, we could do, honestly,

Michael, we could, we could spend an hour going through, or more, going through every one of those questions and why this is not good or why this is a good one.

But the idea behind it, I'm sure, is out of a motive of love in that they want to try to reach people, which is not a bad thing.

But there's, there's some things in this that are coming from a foundation of the idea that orientation doesn't change.

And that's a problem. Well, that's what I was concerned about. And I know that, I know that you all have been laboring right along with, with Steven for, for many years.

But the question number 10 that says, no one should be pressurized into expecting, expecting or seeking any healing.

And that's in quotation marks. No one should be pressurized into expecting or seeking any healing or change that God has not promised any of us until the renewal of all things.

And which feels like to me, a body blow against First Stone Ministries and others who are doing the very same thing that you all are doing.

And this and other things are one of the reasons why I'm glad that you're here.

I just want to hear from you. You all are, we would say you're in the trenches, you're every day laboring in this.

But do you expect healing? Do you expect those that you counsel that do you want them to expect healing and to seek change and repentance in their life?

To answer a little bit more? Yeah, of course we do. But why? Yeah, so in, in my office, the hope.

So I would not teach in my office, the hope being you need to, your hope is fixed on not ever struggling again.

In this regard, it's, it's not Christian truth that we will never be tempted, or that we will not suffer.

But where are we fixing our hope ultimately? I was taught in, really in the first and second year of my discipleship to hitch my wagon to Jesus.

And so he, he got to say, and I didn't get to say, and we used a phrase back then,

Jesus is Lord. And I took that to mean that I bow the knee and he, he gets to say.

But we have a culture right now that doesn't really speak of his Lordship, and does not speak of his kingly authority, or his right to call for, for change in us.

So yeah, I mean that's the first thing you teach, which is the basis of hope. Right? I just think of the, the, well,

I mean, for me, when I, when I came out of homosexuality, the, the crux of it was my, my fully yielding and surrendering to the

Lordship of Jesus Christ. And that was, if it kills me, I'm going to follow you. And I had tried in my own strength to get free, but it wasn't until that I was willing to die to have him that I, that I found freedom.

And I recognize, and I even had a conversation with someone just a couple of days ago, that, that there's a, there's a, there's a direct correlation between attraction, for instance, with what

I perceive I lack and what someone else has. You know, like if you, if you, if you don't have enough money, but you see someone who's making a ton of it, you want to be like that man, right?

Or like that woman. Doesn't mean I'll ever be that man. But I've given

Jesus complete authority over, over my sexuality, over my identity, over my heart, over my mind, my life, my soul, everything.

And so if it, if it wars against his authority in my life and against scripture, then it's something that I yield to him.

Which the core of the gospel, the word repentance is all about change, is all about turning from and turning to.

And if we, if we start negating that and minimizing that, we are minimizing one of the foundational pieces.

And for that to even suggest that we should leave people stuck is harassing.

Yeah, I don't have anything very profound other than the

Lord's reminding me. So when I was young, I would, you know, we talked about vows, early childhood vows.

I was wanting to make a vow that I would never, ever get married.

And the Holy Spirit knew that I was wanting to say it and said, don't say that.

And I was like, okay, I'm not going to say that. I'm vowing to not say that. And, uh, uh, uh, and the

Lord's reminded me of that today. It's like, just stay open, stay open for what

I have for you. And, uh, you know, like I say, I think part of like in my world, because of the genetic disorder and the low testosterone,

I don't have a lot of drive. I don't have a lot of energy. I mean, this guy knows me,

Stephen knows me. I'm tired a lot. I don't have a lot of motivation. And I've never really wanted to get married.

And yet the Lord has asked me to not ever say I won't. And so that leaves it open for me that the

Lord may have that for me. And I need to actually be open to it. I want to thank everyone.

We are definitely 30 minutes past the time that we promised that we would be done, but I hope that nobody regrets the opportunity we've had to spend some time with the staff at First Tone Ministries.

I hope I'm speaking accurately for those who are here that we are very blessed to have you. And we've been very, very encouraged.

Take the opportunity before you leave to take a look at the books and the resources back here at the back.

And I know that Stephen and all the rest of his staff will make themselves available for you guys.

Let me go ahead and say a brief word of prayer and then we will be dismissed. Father, I thank you for blessing our time together tonight and gathering us here.

I thank you for the insistence and the fidelity of these folks at First Tone Ministries to stick with the word of God and to stick with your truth and to affirm your lordship in all of our lives.

And I pray that you would bless them. I pray that you would keep them. I pray that you would cause your face to shine upon them and be gracious to them, that you would lift up your countenance upon them and grant them peace.