Stunning: Baptist Hypocrisy & Lies

When the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, He replied, You shall love the

Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

So, why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this? It had everything to do with how we talk about the

Bible. And specifically, or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most

Christians, unfortunately, is the Bible. We need to do better.

We need to love God with all our hearts, and stand unashamedly on the rock of His Word. We need to love the

Lord with all of our souls, and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from Him.

We need to love the Lord with our minds, and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world.

We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength, and face the work of building a life -giving, God -honoring culture.

Join us for 10 days at the Runner Academy for Cultural Leadership, as we consider how the gospel influences all of life and culture, and the role that we have to play in applying foundational

Christian thinking to every area of life. Non -rockabotas must stop.

I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it! Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?

Yeah, I love to chastise. Delusional, yeah. Delusional's okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional.

You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt.

Is he hung up on me? Yes! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies.

Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke,

Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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So we are going to have a very important show today. As you guys see, the title of the show today,

Stunning Baptist Hypocrisy, Lies, and Christian Nationalism. We're going to try to get to Christian nationalism as well, but we need to alert you to some important things regarding the pre -born.

And many of you guys have been watching us for a long time. You know that our work in the area of equal protection is something that is a core part of who we are.

We have next session about 18 perspective bills of equal protection and abolition happening across the

United States of America, from Iowa to Georgia, all across the country. And so we need you, one, to join with us, to pray with us.

Go to EndAbortionNow .com to give there for next year's work, because it is a lot of work, and we need you for that.

But everybody knows that we have been fighting a battle that surprisingly has a great enemy that will surprise you.

The great enemy is actually the pro -life establishment, the pro -life movement, that seeks to kill every bill of abolition that we put in.

Before it was said quietly behind closed doors, and now it's being said out in the open publicly.

It has to be. It's big. It's a big answer to prayer for us, by the way, because we've been asking the Lord for a long time to expose this and to make them put their name on the dotted line and to say it out loud so that all

Christians can hear that they do not want equal protection for all humans from fertilization. So we've been working in this fight for quite some time with other like -minded pastors and Christians, and so today we are gonna fill you in on a very important thing, two very important things at least.

One that's gonna drop tomorrow. We were gonna ask you guys to all share that content that comes tomorrow, and also wanted to alert you to what took place just yesterday at the

Louisiana Baptist, is it just, is it Louisiana Baptist Convention, Brian? That's correct.

Louisiana Baptist Convention. Was it yesterday? It wasn't yesterday? No. Okay, Tuesday. Okay, Tuesday.

Sorry. And we need to alert you and we're gonna play through some stuff. You're gonna see some stuff today that probably will stun you.

And first we're gonna bring in our guest and that is Pastor Brian Gunter. Pastor Brian, welcome back to Apology Radio.

So good to be with you guys. Pastor Brian likes to tell everyone that he's my favorite pastor. Well, that's what you tell everyone,

Jeff. I know, I know, and you're sharing that with the world. So it's the truth. Well, I mean, I generally introduce people, you know, hey,

I'm Brian Gunter, husband, you know, my beautiful wife, four kids, pastor, and I also just happen to be

Jeff Durbin's favorite pastor. And it's true. You know, so it's just part of my credentials. So some of you guys know,

I love Brian so much, some of you guys know that Pastor Brian and us and a handful of others worked very hard in the state of Louisiana for that historic bill that took place in Louisiana in 2022, and that bill was

HB 813. That bill was the Abolition of Abortion in Louisiana Act. It was a bill of equal protection for all humans in the state of Louisiana.

And Louisiana and Pastor Brian and us, we all worked together closely on that bill. It made it through the hearing in the committee and it made it to the floor and we had all the votes that we needed and then they all went away.

They all evaporated. And it was as a result of a number of factors. Primarily, Senator Mike Johnson, who is now the

Speaker of the House of Congressman, Congressman Mike Johnson, Speaker of the

House, highest position you can get in Congress, and he was a premier reason that that bill died and didn't pass in the state of Louisiana.

We're going to be playing that for you guys tomorrow, the interview with Pastor Brian and I about that.

And so you guys are familiar with Pastor Brian. I'm actually going to play for you right now the trailer for the interview that is dropping right here tomorrow on Apologia Studios.

I want to strongly urge you to make sure you're here for that and also that you share it because we have bills coming across the country of equal protection and abolition.

And if we don't expose what's taking place behind closed doors, it will continue to happen.

So I'm going to say this at the start. I love Mike Johnson. I respect Mike Johnson. I'm grateful that he professes faith in Jesus Christ, but Mike Johnson is in large measure completely responsible for killing a bill of abolition and equal protection in the state of Louisiana.

So here is the trailer for what is coming tomorrow. Again, I'm going to encourage you guys to please share this when it's out.

House Bill 813 was the Abolition of Abortion in Louisiana Act that would give pre -born children in the state of Louisiana equal protection under law.

Mike Johnson really, he's had this meteoric rise. He's the darling of the Republican Party.

Therefore, the Honorable Mike Johnson of the state of Louisiana, having received a majority of the votes cast, is duly elected

Speaker of the House of Representatives for the 118th Congress. He is second in line to be

President of the United States. He says that he's pro -life. He says that he believes, publicly, he says that he believes that life begins at fertilization, that all human life should be protected.

He says that's what he believes when he's speaking to the television cameras, when he's speaking to pro -life voters, when he's speaking to donors.

Obviously, I don't need to cite volumes of medical journals to prove the fact that an unborn child is a human being.

From the earliest stages of development, the unborn are distinct living and whole human beings. They are nonetheless equal because they share a common human nature.

Humans have value simply because they are human. And if you deny this, it's difficult to say why objective human rights should apply to anyone.

But the truth is, he fought to kill a bill that would do just that. When I told

Mike that we were going to move forward with HB 813, despite his urging us not to, things began to get ugly.

And so there you go, everybody. That drops tomorrow, probably around 5 p .m.

Arizona time. I'm going to urge you guys to watch it, listen to the testimony, the witness, and the evidence.

And I want to say, very important, as we dropped this earlier this week, all of us are grateful that we have somebody who's a professing

Christian that's Speaker of the House. We're all grateful for that. And this is in no way an attempt to take down Mike's dignity as an image bearer of God or as a

Christian man. It's to expose what the man did that's led to more death in the state of Louisiana.

And I'm sorry, that just is the case. If Mike ever wanted to dispute that and wanted to have a conversation about it,

I'd be happy to do it. But it is the truth, and we have to expose this. Look, this is one of those moments for us even where it's like a testing moment for yourself.

God is not a respecter of persons. And, you know, Scripture, the Apostle Paul, when he's condemning a false gospel, he says, am

I seeking to please men or God? If I was still seeking to please men, I would not be the servant of Christ. And this is one of those moments.

It's a testing moment for even Pastor Brian and I. Are we seeking to please men or God here? Because it is the truth.

It is the truth. It is irrefutable. It cannot be overcome that Mike Johnson had conversations with important key people and told them not to pass the bill, that Mike Johnson was opposed to the

Bill of Equal Protection in the state of Louisiana. Any claim that he was opposed to it because it was just bad law or things like that is just honestly just dishonest to the highest degree.

He was opposed to it because he didn't believe it was politically pragmatic, and it was not the right time. He said he agreed with the bill, but it wasn't the right time.

He wanted to delay justice. And Mike Johnson killed the Bill of Abolition in the state of Louisiana.

That is a fact. Mike Johnson knows it. Everybody who is there in terms of working on this bill knows it.

More importantly, God knows that it is the truth. And the fact of the matter is abortion is still legal in the state of Louisiana, in large measure because of Mike Johnson.

The proof will be shown tomorrow. I will ask you, because these are God's standards, withhold judgment right now.

Withhold judgment. In sharing the trailer, we weren't asking you to be on our side and just take our side and join our team. We don't care about that.

We want to expose this because we want the truth to come out because we want babies to be saved. I'm asking you to withhold judgment.

We made a claim in the trailer. No one's saying you have to believe it now. You should do the biblical thing and wait till the testimony comes out tomorrow so you can hear about the witnesses, you can hear about the evidence, and you can then come to the conclusion.

And so all it was was a trailer to introduce you to what's coming tomorrow. Please be here to watch it and please share it because this issue is critical.

Which brings us to, Pastor Brian, what took place this week at the

Louisiana Baptist Convention. Just quickly, in about a minute here, Brian, could you bring everyone into what was happening and what were you introducing?

So the Louisiana Baptist Convention is a convention of about 1 ,600

Southern Baptist churches in the state of Louisiana. And one of those churches is the church that I pastor,

First Baptist Church in Livingston, Louisiana. So we met in New Orleans on Tuesday of this week,

November 14th, for the 2023 annual meeting of the Louisiana Baptist Convention. We were at Fred Luter's Church, Franklin Avenue Baptist Church there in New Orleans.

And as we gathered, the meeting was pretty uneventful throughout the day. Nothing of any real controversy or no real problems came up in the meeting, but I had let the leaders know,

I'd let those on the platform know that I was going to be presenting my resolution of equal protection for pre -born children.

Now the process to do this is that a church has to submit their resolution two weeks before the convention to the resolutions committee, which

I did. I had mine submitted in time. And the resolutions committee is a group of leaders in the

LBC who decide whether or not to present that resolution. And they can present it favorably and ask the convention to pass it, or they can choose not to present it because they don't support the resolution and they don't want it to pass.

And my resolution on equal protection for pre -born children was rejected. My resolution was very simple.

It said, life begins at the moment of conception. Therefore, all life should be equally protected from the moment of fertilization, which is conception, until the moment of natural death.

All human lives should be protected equally under law. The lives that protect our lives should also protect the lives of children in the womb.

I said very plainly, that since abortion is murder and all abortion should be illegal, therefore, abortion should be a crime for everyone involved.

No one has the right to kill a baby, not even the mother. Murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone.

That is a very simple, clear position. And brothers, I presented my resolution and it was met with anger.

They were angry at me for insisting that a 1600

Baptist churches across the state of Louisiana, that we need to make a plain statement that we believe that all abortion should be criminalized.

And it grieved my heart, the response that I received. Brian, help everyone understand this because it might be confusing to many people who are watching this right now.

You're talking about putting a resolution in with a lot of ministers of the gospel. These are men who have

PhDs, doctorates, they have gone to seminary, they preach behind the pulpit on a regular basis, and they have told their congregations that what is in the womb is in the image of God.

It's uniquely created by God. They've told their congregations that we are human from fertilization and that all life is sacred and deserves to be protected.

So the person watching us right now is going to be wondering, Brian, is there something else?

Why would these ministers of the gospel resist a bill that simply states, not a bill, sorry, well, they have resisted bills as well, a resolution that simply states what they preach from the pulpit.

Brian, is there something else going on? Are you not telling the whole story or why would they do such a thing?

Well, I mean first you need to understand that the resolution is a statement of 1600 churches in our state that we want our legislature and governor to pass a bill of equal protection.

So it's a unified statement representing tens of thousands of Christians across Louisiana urging our legislature and governor to do justice for these pre -born children and to give them equal protection under the law, and they don't want to do that because I'll just tell you why, and the video that's coming out tomorrow on Mike Johnson will really help people understand this.

The primary reason that I have seen that they don't want to do that is because there are powerful people, many of them elected officials, very powerful politicians, who are urging them do not push for equal protection.

And the reason that's usually given is if we push for equal protection, Republicans will lose elections, and I have told them, and these are my friends, these are,

I believe, my brothers in Christ, but it's often just plainly stated, you know, when we're talking privately, if we push for a total ban on abortion, we're going to lose elections, and we just can't have that, and I've told them, you cannot trade the lives of children to win political office.

Exactly right. God has not given you that option. You have to do the right thing before God, and honestly, it is the pressure of powerful people that I think has caused them to back down from doing what they know

Scripture requires. And Pastor Brian, it's, I would say, and I know you agree with this, we all agree with this, it's not only the powerful political pressure, there was three

Ps there. Good job. Well done. Yeah, thank you. It's not only that, but what's feeding that powerful political pressure is a doctrinal position, and that doctrinal position is a heretical position in the whole history of the church.

That doctrinal position is something that does not come from the pages of Scripture. That doctrinal position is something that comes from a pro -life industry that refuses to fight this fight under the banner of the authority of Christ and on the

Word of God. And that doctrinal position is that a woman ought to be able to kill her child willfully in the womb with impunity and immunity.

That's the doctrine, and that is the doctrine of the mother being a victim just like her child.

So I want to argue, and we're going to be demonstrating this on Black Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, we're dropping a documentary that's been in the works for some time now,

Pastor Brian's also in that, where we are going to be exposing the fatal flaw. The documentary is called

The Fatal Flaw. It drops on Black Friday. I want to encourage you guys to please join with us to share with every pastor that you know.

And that documentary distills the entire conversation down to what motivates this powerful political pressure?

What motivates Christian churches stepping back and just accepting bills of partiality?

You can kill these kids, but not these kids. The answer is that the establishment, the pro -life establishment, does not want abolition of abortion and equal protection ever.

Because of a doctrinal commitment, they say, that she is not guilty for the sin or the crime of taking the life of her child willfully in the womb.

And so that's what's motivating it, and that's what you're going to hear in just a moment here. So I'm going to go ahead and play it, let you guys all see it, because you need to see it.

This needs to be out in front with light on it, because this is what we have to overcome. Here's where Pastor Brian finally gets the opportunity to present his case for the resolution.

Here's Pastor Brian. Well, convention, I hope you know my heart and my history of fighting for the lives of pre -born children in the womb.

If you do not, for the past 15 years, I've worked tirelessly for these children.

I've personally lobbied our state legislature to pass laws to end abortion in this state.

I've personally founded three pregnancy centers in this state to give help to mothers in a crisis pregnancy and to save the lives of these children from abortion.

So I want to begin by saying this comes from a place of deep conviction and passion. And I just want to say to the platform and to the resolutions committee,

I mean no ill will here. I don't mean to spark a controversy here, but let me explain why this is so important.

Abortion is currently legal for women in the state of Louisiana. It's actually legal for women in all 50 states in Louisiana.

The approach that has been taken in our state legislature and many others is to criminalize abortion clinics, but not, but in fact to give immunity to mothers who seek and procure abortions.

Now what has been said in opposition to my position, which is that we should totally ban abortion, is that I would seek to criminalize women.

But laws don't criminalize classes of people like women. Laws criminalize conduct such as prenatal homicide.

And my position is very simple. I believe that no one should be allowed under law to murder an innocent child in the womb.

I believe that murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone. And while I agree with resolution six's request that we would prosecute the abortion industry for shipping these pills into our state, that is not going far enough.

If we leave it legal for women to order those pills from out of state and have a self -managed abortion at home, which current

Louisiana law allows, we'll never end this abortion. We'll never end abortion in our state if we keep self -managed abortion legal for women.

In my resolution, I cite the law, Senate Bill 388, which says quote, none of the following shall be construed to create the crime of criminal abortion by means of an abortion -inducing drug possessing for her own consumption or consuming in an abortion -inducing drug by a pregnant woman in violation of this section.

So the law says using the abortion pill is a crime except for pregnant women.

Who do we think is taking these abortion pills? What Senate Bill 388 did a year and a half ago when it went into law is it granted immunity to any mother who has a self -managed abortion.

We need to change that law. We need to give children equal protection under the law so that the same laws that protect our lives as born persons would protect the lives of children in the womb.

Again, murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone and their lives should be protected by the same laws that protect ours.

Thank you, Brother Brian. All right, so who can argue with that?

You know, they didn't even try as far as the main points go. That's right. I've yet to hear a cogent response to that argumentation.

So some string pulling. What we're gonna do here is we want to actually play for everybody the response from the committee, the resolutions committee, some people, two people that were on it, because we need to interact with what they said.

Now listen, brothers and sisters, I know. I know. I'll grant it. It's burdensome constantly talking about this.

It's burdensome having to constantly engage with this. But brothers and sisters, literally as I speak, literally as you're watching this show, babies are dying.

And that's not an emotional appeal to you. That's a fact of revelation. These are image bearers of God.

It's a fact of our circumstances. They're being killed as we speak across this country. We are commanded by God to establish justice.

And we are commanded by God to protect the fatherless. We're commanded by God to hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.

And so I recognize that this is a tiring thing to constantly be harping on and to constantly be engaging with, but you need to understand that we are so close.

That's not just my post -millennial optimism. That's a fact. 18 bills next session of abolition.

That is a fact. We are getting so close. And what is being pressed and pressed and pressed is finally displaying, oh, this is what's in the center right here.

This was keeping all alive right here, is the issue of the victim, the doctrine, the heretical doctrine that she's a victim.

She's not guilty. We need to protect her and she needs to be given immunity. That's what's feeding into this.

And proof of it is here's Pastor Brian giving an unassailable speech.

Truly. Unassailable biblically, logically, in terms of what these men say they're committed to.

It's unassailable. They can't overcome it. I want to say there's, I guarantee you if we offered these men money to debate this on stage with a moderated public debate, they would not take it because they know their position would be shown to be foolish and futile and unbiblical in front of the watching world.

It is an indefensible position biblically that they hold to. I love them as brothers. I love them as brothers.

But what they are doing is actually destroying our ability to protect the fatherless. With this doctrinal commitment they have it is it is inconsistent.

It is indefensible. They cannot defend it except with a motion which you're going to see in just a moment here. This is the first person that comes up from the committee to say why they didn't want the resolution.

Here it is. We're going to interact with this, Brian. So I'll be stopping this a couple times. I'm Phil Thigpen, messenger from Memorial Baptist Church and member of the resolutions committee.

One thing we talked about in committee, Brother Brian, you and I haven't had much of a chance to talk, just a little bit of online correspondence.

But I just want you to know personally how much I respect you. And we talked about that in the committee and obviously looking at the resolution, we see your heart in it.

Can I say something very important? Brian doesn't care.

Right. And we don't care if you see our heart. Precisely. This isn't about you looking at passions and motivations.

This is you being held to principle. That's what Brian wanted the

Louisiana Baptist to hear. Not simply to look inside of him and see how passionate Brian is about this.

That's of course, that's beyond dispute. But what Brian is pressing there is not, gentlemen, would you fall into my emotions?

Will you climb with me into this passion that I have? That's not what Brian's asking. Brian's asking these men to operate as faithful men of God on principle.

Brian is asking for you to follow him on the principle. He's not asking for you to go with him on the emotional appeals.

Because you can still sin with the best intentions. I'll say to be fair, they're about to forego said principles and go the emotional route.

So yes, here we go. Our disagreement with you isn't on the pro -life stance.

We share that pro -life stance with you. Our disagreement with this is to realize that by doing this, we're looking at, you mentioned criminalizing earlier, that we would be bringing women before the court system to be tried.

Finish the sentence. Please, brother, finish the sentence.

It's the same kind of manipulation that Leatherwood engaged in in Anaheim with Pastor Brian when Pastor Brian came up as a messenger to challenge his position.

Finish the sentence. Criminalizing mothers to go before the court. Let's finish the sentence. Criminalizing mothers who willfully take the lives of their children in their womb.

Criminalizing mothers who murder their children. If you ask any of these men, is abortion murder? They're going to say yes. So please finish the sentence.

Criminalizing mothers who murder their children in the womb. You see, because if you finish the sentence, then you lose all the emotional appeal that you're trying to drag people into when you finish the sentence.

Because every Christian hears you say, we shouldn't, like Leatherwood says, where he says, you're not going to get me to say that I want to throw mothers into jail.

For what? No, no, please. Let's finish the sentence. The conversation is about mothers who willfully take the lives of their children.

And so you're not going to get me to say I want to throw mothers who murder their children into jail. Every Christian sitting in the audience is going to go, hmm, that's not consistent.

That doesn't make sense. And so I wonder why these men feel like they have to leave out the context when they're trying to convince people of their position.

And I think I know the answer as to why they have to leave out the context. Because if you actually said what is actually under discussion, every

Christian would immediately realize the fallacy in your position, right? Mothers, criminalizing mothers who would go before the courts.

Wait a second. Today, today, right now, in every state in our union, I'm sure of it. There are mothers in jail who have assaulted their children or even killed their children.

And nobody has a problem with it. Nobody has a problem with it. Pastor Brian, did you want to add anything to that?

No, I just thought it would be relevant to say Bill Thigpen is speaking there and he and I have a history together.

I remember when they wanted to start a pregnancy center in Bogalusa, Louisiana, where he pastors and I had started three in our state and helped start a number more of them.

And the pastors around Bogalusa contacted me and they wanted to start a pregnancy center.

And I went and I spoke to a group of about 20 pastors one day. And as I spoke with them, we had an hour prayer meeting where we called out to God and asked for his provision to have this place where we could help women and save the lives of children.

And we were praying together for an end to abortion in our state. And I remember that prayer meeting very vividly.

It's probably been four years ago now. But it was one of those hours of prayer that it was almost life -changing where the fellowship among brothers who were laboring for the gospel and to protect the preborn was so sweet.

And we were crying through tears and pleading to God. And I guess the one thing that people don't understand in the context of this conversation is these men and I that are debating this, we have a lot of history together.

And I worked hard to help them start that pregnancy center, which is now open in Bogalusa and saving the lives of children.

So it's grievous to me that men that I have that personal history with and have labored with and helped raise money to start that pregnancy center, which they are on the board of and operating now, it is very grievous to me to hear them argue that abortion should be legal for women.

I couldn't believe what I was hearing as I stood there. Stunning, I think, probably to everybody watching this.

But here is more from the convention. Judges and juries would have to make decisions on things and it would not just be the shout your abortion crowd.

It's also going to be 13 -year -old girls who were brought forward and tried for murder, tried for prenatal homicide.

And we would have no set of parameters in the legal system to consider parents who misguided her as co -conspirators.

Or the 15 -year -old boy who impregnated her as to his role of the guilt in the homicide as well.

Not only with that, but with any sort of legal matter, we also have issues of...

Let me pause there for a second. That's a lot. So first and foremost, it is interesting to me that we pull on the emotional heartstrings.

Yeah, 13 -year -old girl. I want to say, okay, brother, with respect to you, now do rape.

Now do theft. AC doesn't work. If the context of this conversation was like, we're trying to put a resolution that says that we want to prosecute people for theft.

And the person comes up and goes, you know, that would mean that moms might go into the court system, which just can't be trusted because they engage in this behavior.

Or even a 13 -year -old girl is going to have to face the court for engaging in thievery and any kind of this behavior.

Everyone would go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's not the consistent Christian position. We're not talking about classes of people.

We're talking about conduct. We're talking about criminalizing conduct. Why are you bringing in all these different stories of 13 -year -olds and all the rest?

And also this whole thing of, did he say it here? Did it pass it? The 15 -year -old boy who gets her pregnant? Absolutely fallacious.

Absolutely fallacious. This resolution, arguing for equal protection for all humans from fertilization, has nothing whatever to do with a 15 -year -old boy that gets a girl pregnant.

This is talking about, with malice of forethought, taking the life of your child in your womb on an unjustified manner.

That's what this is about. Has nothing to do with a 15 -year -old that gets somebody pregnant. And all this bill does is, like Pastor Brian says, and a bill like or fighting for equal protection, all it does is it classifies what's happening.

What's in the womb is human fertilization. All humans in this state deserve to be equally protected from fertilization to natural death.

That's all it says. It doesn't talk about genders. It doesn't talk about classes of people. So the resolution is just pointing to what we say we believe as Christians.

The question really is this, do we really believe it? Yeah, and I think the only other thing I would add to that is what he's saying is just simply untrue.

The mechanism is in place. We have a mechanism to determine who the true victims are and who the guilty parties are.

The problem is you're not wanting them to undergo that process at all. You're wanting them to have exclusive rights to be absolved of that investigation to begin with and classify them as victims outright before even going through that process.

So what we're saying is that due process, the justice system, as it is applied to the case of someone who kills a person that's already born, we want that same process applied to the person that kills another person before they're born.

So we do have that in place to determine who the guilty are and who the victims are. Yeah, I was, I mean, say basically the same thing, but it's just not honest.

I believe the word he used, he said we don't have the parameters. Yeah, we do. What are you talking about?

We have a court system. What are you talking about? Like, this is not honest, you know, and it's like, okay, so a 13 -year -old girl had an abortion, so her parents force her, then they're the ones that are guilty and she's going to be vindicated.

Right, coercion. So like, yeah, we have a mechanism for that in court. It's nonsense to even make that claim. Like, and it is on a different planet or something.

Furthermore, it needs to be stated that the resolution specifically addresses what he's talking about.

It says that women who are coerced would not be prosecuted. It would remove no immunity for things like mistake of fact, where you have a woman who truly just does not understand what's happening.

Maybe she has a mental disability or she's just too young to grasp. And the courts, of course, would have to deal with that.

But I also want to say, not only did I specifically address in the resolution the accusations he's making that I would advocate for a law which would lock up 13 -year -olds who had been coerced into abortion, not only is that honestly a slanderous misrepresentation of what

I'm advocating, but also these are Planned Parenthood's talking points. Exactly.

Who makes the case that, well, if we ban abortion, we're going to have 13 -year -olds being incarcerated?

Who makes the case? Well, as you'll hear in a moment, well, if there's a miscarriage, then that mother could be charged with murder because she had a miscarriage.

Yeah, pro -aborts talk that way. Who has made those arguments? Those are Planned Parenthood's talking points. The pro -abortion lobby has.

That's right. Planned Parenthood has. Why in the world are our Christian brothers and pastors using the talking points of Planned Parenthood to try to stop equal protection?

That is a serious question that needs to be asked. It does need to be answered. Yes, it does. And the question to be asked to any brother who has believed in the pro -life establishment's doctrine of the victimhood of the mother, question needs to be asked, okay, so you don't believe that abortion should be a crime for the mother.

Okay. Is it a sin before God to which every faithful pastor should say yes?

And the question then has to come, what kind of sin is it? Is it murder? Okay, it's murder.

Should murder be a crime? There's really no way out of that reasoning. There's no way out of it.

It's not manipulation. It's not emotional. It's just working through the critical skills necessary with the

Word of God to say, what's the outcome of this? And of course, everything there was flat out misrepresentation of Pastor Brian's resolution.

It's not only a misrepresentation of his resolution, it's a misrepresentation of equal protection generally.

And of course, as you just heard Pastor Brian point to, these are Planned Parenthood's talking points. Why are they coming out of our mouths?

Incorrect verdicts that can be given, falsely accused people, and in cases such as this, falsely accused people would be women who had miscarriages.

Complete fiction. Complete fiction. By the way, also, the argument you're making, brother, here is against courts at all.

Because we live in a fallen world, and we have people who are fallible human beings, and yeah, mistakes are made in judgment.

And they're made in judgment against people who are accused of theft, people who are accused of rape, and all down the line.

So the argument you're really making here is against courts and crimes. You're saying, you know, because we may not always get this right.

Because we can get it wrong, we shouldn't really have any court system operating to prosecute criminals. You're arguing against courts and crimes here.

It's such poor moral reasoning. Look, if a 15 -year -old boy raped his 13 -year -old daughter, he wouldn't be saying that.

13 -year -old girlfriend? I mean, no, his 13 -year -old daughter. Oh, right, right. He wouldn't be saying, well, you know, the verdict might be wrong, so we shouldn't prosecute this.

Of course we prosecute. Of course we have crimes being focused upon in the court system.

But this, again, is an argument against court systems. Right. That's not what's under discussion here. And that is a concern that women who had miscarriages would then be falsely accused of abortion, and they will be brought through the criminal justice system.

Absolute fiction. Absolute undeniable fiction. Because miscarriages happen naturally.

Miscarriages are heartbreaking situations for mothers. We're dealing with three, families within our church, three deaths of babies in the last week at Apology of Church.

Full -term babies. And it is heartbreaking. And everybody is just struck with grief.

There's been so many tears shed over the last seven days at Apologia. It's been a hard week for us.

But you know what happens? My wife had two miscarriages, one with twins and then another.

And I can tell you that those were some of the most heart -wrenching, horrible experiences of our lives.

It was filled with tears and pain for days and grief for days. And I mean, where you're stunned, silence.

That's miscarriage. That's natural. That's not something you can accuse somebody of in a fallen world.

It is a period of brokenness and grief. And that's not what Equal Protection is arguing for, that women who have miscarriages are somehow going to be brought in the court system.

No, we're arguing malice of forethought, unjustified taking of human life. We're talking about the real reason people are having abortions.

It's not because of rape, incest, life of the mother. It's because at will, this is an inconvenience. I don't want this child.

I hate this child. And the whole notion that somehow these women don't know what they're doing demonstrates to me that these men don't spend a lot of time outside of abortion mills.

They don't know what they're talking about. They don't know what they're talking about. Exactly right. I could just add, if anyone goes and looks at my resolution, it's hosted on Southern Baptist for Abolishing Abortion dot com.

If you go and look at my resolution, paragraph number 11 says, I quote, the mother shall not be subject to criminal liability for an accidental or natural death of her preborn child.

It specifically said in my resolution, women who have a miscarriage would not be prosecuted because that's not the intentional taking of a human life.

And Phil just decided to totally ignore. He said he read my resolution and then he misrepresented it as if I were trying to prosecute women for having miscarriages.

I don't know how to read his motivations there, but that's a total misrepresentation of my position.

And the statement that is in front of him says so, and yet he decided to completely misrepresent it.

And the brother after him actually pointed it out. The one that was speaking in support of you,

Brian, he pointed the very, it made him look honestly foolish and negligent to read it.

Well, it's an unfortunate now public record of ignorance for this brother.

And that's just, it's undeniable. I think that the best course of action would be to simply acknowledge the wrong, acknowledge the inconsistency, turn from it, and to do what's right.

Because right now, this stands as a public record of ignorance. And I believe with all my heart, when abortion is abolished in this nation, and it will be under the feet of Christ, when it is abolished in this nation, it's moments like this that are going to be on record.

It'll be on record. When school children are learning the history and they're reading the books and watching the videos, it's moments like this that'll be told as part of the story, is that what these

Christians had to do was overcome these kind of arguments. Christians who were actually taking

Planned Parenthood's talking points to resist justice for these children. And I don't mean not to harm this brother, but it's a fact.

Those are Planned Parenthood's talking points. That's what they use to oppose equal protection. But I have to say this, and I mean this with all due respect, when

I say Planned Parenthood's talking points and the pro -aborts, these are their talking points when they resist bills of equal protection.

Just know that of all the voices coming against equal protection, Planned Parenthood and the pro -abortion industry represents like this much.

Like if it's a line, it's about that much at the legislature, because the rest of it is the pro -lifers, the pro -life industry.

It's their voices that are loudest saying these things. And the pro -choicers almost have to not even lift a finger, because it's coming from the church.

It's coming from those who say they believe that it's human from fertilization. Trying to fight against imprisonment, trying to justify that they in fact had a miscarriage and not an abortion.

So there are numerous cases that would come up, and please understand that I'm not trying to bring these up as emotional stories.

Yes you are. Let's be honest. Speak straight. Proverbs says wisdom, don't speak crooked.

Don't use crooked speech. Speak straight. Yes you are. All of these examples were meant to be emotional arguments.

They weren't coherent arguments. They weren't consistent arguments. Nor biblical. They were misrepresentations even, and you use them, brother, because they are emotionally powerful arguments.

Like saying, we don't want to throw mothers in jail. Well, that's an emotional argument. Finish the sentence.

We don't want to throw mothers who murder their children in jail. And one point I also want to make here, very important.

Now, I want to apologize for this, because ahead of time in terms of like, this is raw, and it's raw.

It's difficult. And so if you have kids around, maybe turn it down a bit or whatever, but we all recognize this as this is the way the world works.

If you do this, you are going to be prosecuted. This is a body cam where the cops arrest a 12 -year -old girl for allegedly stabbing a little brother to death.

She stabbed her nine -year -old brother to death. And this is the, I'll just give you the first few moments of the body cam. She's 12.

And I want you to see what happens here. I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry!

I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry! We're just going to put handcuffs on just for now.

I'm sorry! I'm sorry!

I don't know what's happening! I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry!

I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry!

I'm so sorry! How old are you? I'm 12 years old. So, everybody that saw this body cam footage, and much more can be pulled, of this 12 -year -old girl who stabbed her nine -year -old brother to death and sees the girl get cuffed, everybody recognizes this is a horrible situation.

I recognize it's terrible. She's 12 years old. But the fact of the matter is we have laws against murdering your brother.

You can't do that. And if you're 12 years old, you're still going to be putting cuffs for it because you can't kill other people in an unjustified manner.

And so all of this argumentation of the 13 -year -old girl who kills her own child, why is she allowed to kill her own child in this nation?

Because she has the protection of the laws of this nation and different states, and primarily she has the protection of the pro -life establishment that says she's not to be seen as guilty.

So how can we have 13 -year -olds that are going to get abortions? Because the law has not taught people in this nation not to murder your offspring.

So what are we arguing for? Let's have law in this nation that teaches our communities to not murder their offspring.

I'll give you a great example of a law that's tutored this nation. The abolition of slavery has tutored our nation.

Before, look, not very long ago, there were people in this nation that believed that it was perfectly all right to engage in the slave trade, to kidnap and enslave our black brothers and sisters.

People thought that that was a perfectly moral thing to do, even though the Bible condemned it and said it was worthy of capital punishment.

People believed it. And there was a tension point in this nation where we had people who said, that's a sin against God. That's an abomination in God's eyes.

That's partiality. That's unequal weights and measures. That has to be done away with. Where people were saying that and preaching that, and there were those who were saying, no, you can't do away with this industry.

You can't do this. It's too hard to overcome. You can't do it. You can't just abolish slavery in this nation.

Culture is not ready for that. Culture is not ready for that. It's going to destroy our economic system and all the excuses that they had politically to oppose it.

And now we have, thankfully, the law coinciding with God's law that says you are equal in the eyes of God and the eyes of men, no matter your color.

And the law has taught people, which is why today in this nation, if you are engaged in any kind of kidnapping and enslaving anybody, even sex trafficking, you will be prosecuted.

Why? Because of the work of the Christian church that educated the world as to what was pleasing in God's eyes.

And so how do you get 13 -year -old girls to stop killing their babies? Criminalize it.

Make it a crime. Let the law teach our 13 -year -old girls that what is in you is human and worthy of life and value and protection, and you cannot take its life unjustly.

That's how you teach people. You don't teach people by saying, give them immunity. Give the 13 -year -old girl immunity to kill her own child.

That's not Christian. That's not Christian. That's not consistent. And it goes to the point that I made at the beginning of the episode today of Proverbs 17, 15.

He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination. If you acquit the guilty and you say, no, you know,

I know it's murder, but she's not guilty, well then you're removing the gospel from her and you are doing what is an abomination in God's eyes.

That kind of practice, that kind of thought is an abomination in God's eyes. She's not guilty when really, pastor, you believe that she is and she needs

Christ. That's the truth. There's another proverb for you, uh, where there's no prophetic vision, the people cast off restraint, blessed is he who keeps the law.

That's right. So there's been this, what we're, what we're watching here from Louisiana is a lack of prophetic vision.

We're, we're not speaking as prophets into the culture. We're not telling people, obey the law, not just the civil law,

God's law. That's murder. That's against God's law. And so the people have cast off restraint.

They're murdered. 13 year old girls are murdering their, the babies in their womb because of that.

Well, Luke, I have to tell you, I'm trying to be that prophetic voice and it's a very lonely place to be because in that room, yeah, there, there are hundreds of pastors in that room and clearly the majority of them were against what

I was saying. Yeah. You said some of them who knew that what I was saying is true.

They didn't want to publicly stand with me because they could tell that the majority was against the truth and there is pressure.

There's political pressure in church life. There's political pressure in the legislature.

And, um, I just have to tell you, I was grieved at men who

I believe are my brothers in Christ arguing for legalized self -managed abortion for mothers and against equal protection for preborn children so that when things like what you just heard were said, they're saying, amen, that's right.

When someone is arguing against criminalizing all murder, I just, again,

I stood there and I could not believe what I was hearing from men that I have known for years make such grievous, unbiblical, honestly wicked arguments.

And my prayer is just that they would repent. They know they're wrong. They have to know they're wrong. And I don't know what their motivation is, but they need to repent.

This is wicked. They know better. They have the spirit of God in them. They can read the word of God.

They cannot make a biblical case for why prenatal homicide should be legal for women.

So let's just admit it. You're wrong. And you need to repent. And we need to labor for equal protection for all human beings from the moment of fertilization until natural death.

No exceptions. Murder should never be legal. Period. Amen. I would try to sway people in any way or to sensationalize it.

But rather, we live in. Except you did all those things. I have to point it out. You did all those things.

Broken world. And in a broken world, these are the ugly and negative type of circumstances that would unfortunately come up and inevitably come up.

And we're afraid that the criminal justice system, as it stands, is not capable or qualified to be able to handle matters of prenatal homicide.

Great. Now do rape. Now do enslaving. Now do lying.

Now do stealing. You see, you're making an argument against the court system. You're saying the court system can't handle these issues of crimes properly.

And so again, your argument is against that. It's not against equal protection. And I think people need to see those categories that he's arguing against ultimately a straw man.

He's not arguing against the case of equal protection. It is concerned that it would not promote justice, but it could possibly further injustice.

So our decision was to bring forward what we find as resolution is number six.

I believe that's correct. Resolution six. So that with resolution six, the approach is, is let's try and limit abortion as much as is humanly possible within the state.

So we're trying to cut off abortive services and industries. And we believe that as you had mentioned.

And there it is. There it is. Listen, I'm not the know all on this issue. I'm not the most important thing.

None of us are on this issue. But we have been saying for a long time that the real reason that abolition hasn't happened and equal protection hasn't happened and abortion isn't abolished.

The real reason is the heart beating behind it as the fatal flaw, the pro -life establishment and their doctrine.

And that is that really, we're just going to try to limit this as much as we can, because what we don't want to get to is equal protection.

So all we're going to do is forever and ever and ever, we're going to work and work and get paid and paid and paid to limit and limit and limit and work with bills of partiality and just do what we can to bring down the numbers without ever saying that she's guilty for killing her child.

Because the real issue is they don't believe that the woman should ever be seen as guilty for murdering her child in the womb.

He just said it. We're going to just, you know, we're going to oppose equal protection. That would mean the woman is actually guilty, guilty for killing her child.

And we're just going to do our very best to bring down the numbers as much as we possibly can, all the while giving her impunity and immunity.

That's the real issue. That's their goal in a summary is not end, but limit. That's right. Now, I wanted everyone to see the next part,

Brian. Thanks for staying with us for so long. This is a key, a key moment with a key person.

And before I play it, this is, tell us his name, Will. Pastor Brian, it's

Will. Yeah, Dr. Will Hall. Will is a close personal friend of mine.

I met Will Hall and now Speaker Mike Johnson on the same day. They both came to my church where I was pastoring at the time,

First Baptist Church in Pollock in October of 2015 for a pancake breakfast where we were raising funds to try to start a pregnancy center in Alexandria, Louisiana.

And so I'm leading this effort and Will came and Mike came and we raised some funds and we were raising awareness for that.

And since then, we had all been friends in close communication, working together over the years from 2015 to 2022.

Will is someone that I would speak to on a weekly, if not daily basis. We lobbied bills in the legislature together.

He is the director of the Office of Public Policy for the Louisiana Baptist Convention, which means that he is supposed to represent our 1600

Louisiana Baptist churches before the state legislature on legislation.

And one of the primary focuses is on the issue of life and protecting the preborn. And so that's something that we have done together for years.

And that's why when he came to the microphone to oppose me and honestly, everyone in the room that I've spoken to said they felt like he was really displaying some very sinful anger toward me and how he spoke.

I just couldn't believe it. Here's a man who has been one of my closest friends saying things that are unbelievable.

Yeah. Now, before I play what he said, this is important now, please hold onto your seats, everybody.

What I'm about to play from the convention two days ago, we're going to interact with.

But what I'm going to play first is something that took place May 4th, 2022.

Okay. So this is a little over a year ago in Louisiana, HB 813, our bill of equal protection for all humans in the state of Louisiana got to the hearing.

The fact that it got to the hearing was a big deal because these bills are often killed by their establishment before they can make it to hearing.

They won't even let it be heard. It stopped before it gets there. It got to the hearing. This was the historic moment where HB 813, the bill we all worked so hard on together, that bill made it through the committee, seven to two vote.

One of the legislators actually couldn't even say yes. He said, absolutely.

Now there was someone who came and spoke in favor of the bill that day. So HB 813 was the abolition of abortion in Louisiana Act, equal protection for all humans and fertilization.

Do you know who showed up that day to speak in favor of the bill? Will. Here's his testimony.

Mr. Chairman, members, I'm Dr. Will Hall. I'm the Director for the Office of Public Policy with the Louisiana Baptist Convention. I'm here to tell you that Louisiana Baptists are 100 % pro -life, and I urge you to support

HB 813. I'd like to give my testimony by answering some of the criticisms

I've heard murmured in the hallways and some things that Pastor Gunter has addressed, but I want to explain what this means to be pro -life.

Louisiana Baptists are pro -life from the womb through eternity, and we're pro -life at every stage of life in between.

And what I'm going to say about Louisiana Baptists, I could say about Catholics, because Catholic charities do many of the same things that I'm going to mention here.

Louisiana Baptists established a practice of care center on our state ministry campus in Alexandria. Our churches work with other denominations and members of the community to provide counseling for mothers, but more than that.

We distribute milk, diapers. We provide rent utilities for mothers and their newborn children.

We provide health care for mothers during the pregnancy and immediately after the pregnancy of her and her baby.

We also provide job training for mothers. We have a residence in Monroe, our Children's Home and Family Ministry, where we provide temporary residence for mothers and their children who are in distress while we look for a permanent solution for their situation.

We have Christian Job Corps program for women. We have Christian Job Corps programs for men. Then -President

Bush and then -Vice President Gore have both said that it's the best of its kind in the country in lifting women out of poverty into productivity.

We have Celebrate Recovery Ministries where we help people with their addictions. Orphan care, foster care, adoption.

We have five counseling centers around the state. We minister to the homeless.

We minister to individuals in jails. In fact, we provide transitional housing for nonviolent offenders who've been released.

We minister to the elderly, the homeless. And if you've been a victim of one of the four hurricanes the last two years, you've seen men and women cooking meals, doing mud -outs with chainsaws with ugly yellow hats and ugly lily shirts.

Those are Louisiana Baptists helping our state recover. I would say this, that indeed

Louisiana Baptists are pro -life from the womb through eternity. We deeply care about the beginning of life.

We deeply care about afterlife. We deeply care about each stage of life. But we realize that it all begins in the womb.

And so we would urge you to protect the innocent in the womb and pass HB 813.

Thank you. So that was, Will, at the committee hearing in Louisiana, May 4th, 2022, asking the state lawmakers to let the bill pass the committee to go for a floor vote and to pass

HB 813. Yeah, I remember that now. He was, I was listening to it live. He was arguing for equal protection before the state legislature.

That was May 4th, 2022. Something happened. Something happened, and you're going to find out tomorrow with the interview that Brian and I did about Mike Johnson.

Mike Johnson contacted Will, according to Will, and told him to no longer support

HB 813. So Will's mind was changed, not on principle. It was changed because he was told to change his mind.

And that was by now Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. Powerful political pressure.

That's right. And so now, that was over a year ago. Now, Will is opposing equal protection, and he did so from the platform at the

Louisiana Baptist Convention. Here is what Will said. Just because of that statement in the proposed resolution, it would lead actually to more abortions in this state than by what we have been attempting to do in the legislature and what we have accomplished in the legislature.

Brian, what— Upon what basis? In the world is he talking about? I have no idea.

How in the world would criminalizing abortion lead to more abortion? I don't know.

I have no idea what he said. He doesn't expatiate on it. I'm not quite sure what he meant. I'm not sure what he meant by that. He didn't defend it.

He just said we can't make abortion illegal because it would lead to more. I have no idea how that is, but that's what he said.

It makes no sense. Okay. Give the exception for women who are under duress, because research shows that 70 percent of women have either been coerced or regret or otherwise pressured into an abortion.

Seventy percent. The others, we know from research, all women who are in the first trimester are undergoing tremendous hormonal changes that have a severe impact on their decision -making abilities.

That is a false claim. It's just a lie. There's no research that demonstrates that.

Are we really going to do that as Christian men now? Are we going to provide now excuses for people in the crimes that they commit and the sins they commit?

You don't understand. I was just having a bad moment. I had a bad day. I was very depressed. I killed the guy.

It was hormonal. Because I was very depressed. I was very angry. I had a really, really rough season. And so I killed him.

I wasn't thinking, I'd like you to let me off the hook now because I just wasn't myself that day. We don't do that.

How did we get to the point where we're arguing against justice for these fatherless children on the basis of hormonal changes in a woman?

Also, complete fictitious argumentation in terms of 70 % of women, he later says, are coerced.

And that's, I'm sorry, Will, I'd love to debate that with you in a public moderated debate on a platform.

I'm going to try to see you defend that statistic that 70 % of women are coerced into abortion.

I'm sorry. That is a full display of the fact that you do not spend a lot of time in the area of outside of abortion mills and preaching the gospel outside of abortion mills to convince women not to murder their children because they are out there bragging about killing their children.

Bragging about how many children that they've actually killed saying they can kill their child if they want to. I'm going to kill that.

What'd that woman say at Louisiana State University when I was talking to her? I should be able to kill that if I want to.

Because that's the true heart of abortion. This that's being spun here is an absolute fiction.

And by the way, can I just make a note of something in terms of what everyone understands here? This is, and by the way,

I struggled with which one I was going to play during the show today because it's fairly common in terms of an argument or excuse.

But here's a news report about a woman charged with killing her baby who experienced postpartum depression.

Tonight, we are following a chilling story out of Boulder. A two -month -old baby killed after an hours -long search for him and his mother.

Thank you for watching. I'm Kellie Werthmann. That mother, Anna Louise England, is in jail tonight accused of murder.

At this time, Boulder County has not released her mugshot. This all began yesterday afternoon when a welfare check was called on England concerned she was having a mental health crisis.

Tonight, our Olivia Young is in studio with this developing story. And Olivia, you actually talked with the godmother of that baby who called for the welfare check.

That's right, Kellie. So you can go on and watch more of that. Just look it up on YouTube.

The point is that she was charged with what? She's charged with murder. But the excuse being given by friends and family and probably by her was postpartum depression.

It's her hormones. And the question is whether the court cares about that. The court doesn't care about that in terms of a life was taken and you're responsible.

You're about to hear that same defense in a second too. Yeah, and so this whole argumentation of like, you know, in the first trimester, their hormones are just kind of, you know, going all over the place.

And so, you know, maybe they're not really culpable for taking the life of their child. You know, I will, with respect to you, brother,

I don't feel like you spend a lot of time talking to first trimester women who are seeking abortions because the ones that I've talked to and it's in the,

I don't even know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of women in the first trimester abortions, they're not acting like you say they are.

They're not acting like they're being coerced. Are there women who are being coerced in abortion? Yeah, there's sex traffickers and there's pimps and there's evil boyfriends that coerce women.

And that means that those people are guilty, not the woman. Evil grandmas. That's exactly right. But the women that I've talked to by the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds that are in their first trimester killing their children,

I can't actually see the woman that you're talking about. Well, can we just say too that we need to define our terms?

Like feeling pressure is not the same thing as being forced to commit a crime. Right. Like a boyfriend pressuring you or your financial situation being hard.

That's not the same thing as someone having a gun to your head. Exactly. And forcing you to do something wrong. And when you see this - You know, it's also, I was interested, where did he get this statistic from?

And so I noticed on Twitter, Erica Schanzenbach, who's an abolitionist, posted a thread.

She took it down. Yep, go ahead. Took it to task. Yeah, so she cited this study that Will was apparently citing in his response.

And it said that 70 % of women who have abortions say they were coerced or pressured or regretted their abortion.

Now, these are three very different - That's a big net. Coercion and being pressured are not the same.

Coercion, legally defined, is when someone is forced to do something at threat of death or grave bodily injury.

Pressured is saying, oh, come on, do this, do this. Okay, two very different things. But then the third category, regret their abortion.

Okay, if a woman regrets her abortion, what does that presuppose? Well, that she chose to have an abortion.

She realized later that it was wrong and she regretted that she chose to do something as wrong. If a woman is coerced, she doesn't choose to have an abortion.

She's forced to have the abortion. If a woman regrets her abortion, she must have necessarily chosen of her own volition to have the abortion.

So those are exclusionary categories. And we're going to lump women who regret abortion with those who coerced abortion to make it sound like 70 % of women have been coerced into abortion when the truth is it is a very, very small percentage.

That's just not honest. And the study classified coerced women as contrary to my values and preferences.

Like, again, we're talking about definitions. Coercion, what are we talking about here?

You remember a few years back when Planned Parenthood had the whole thing, like this is only 3 % of the services we provide.

But in reality, we all know that if you go into Planned Parenthood and get an exam and then get a condom and then this is that, like it's all lumped in together.

We're fudging the numbers. Obviously, it's not true. Abortion is a subset of this list of things that get done there.

You guys talked about us parroting the talking points of our enemies, but now it appears like we're also parroting the statistical analysis of our enemies too and lumping these types of percentages together when actually it's infinitesimal.

Like the amount of genuine coercion that's going on here. And as Pastor Brian said, the amount of volitional choice that's actually going into these things.

But the same type of tactics are being employed here. We're lying about the statistical realities in order to inflate this idea that women are helpless.

The point is to give, let's just say it like it is, the point is to give women immunity to kill their children willfully in the womb.

That's the point. This argumentation leads to immunity for women, that they ought to be the class that is protected to kill their own children with immunity and impunity.

That's the point. Legal precedent for over 100 years in this state that we don't treat the woman as a victim, but the perpetrators.

And in this case, we have Planned Parenthood is a perpetrator. Aid to Access is a perpetrator.

Some of the school systems are perpetrators. Some of our politicians are perpetrators. The male who first convinces the young woman to give up her purity makes her a victim.

And then when she gets pregnant and he demands that she has an abortion, get rid of it or me, and she has abortion and she destroys that gift of life that have given her, she's a victim a second time.

And we... So I'm sorry, I need to address this in terms of like, how should

Christians think if a boyfriend tells a mother, look, you murder our child, decapitate them, disembowel them, dismember them, or we're no longer going to have a relationship.

That doesn't classify as coercion, right? That's an awful wicked man.

And the woman who kills her child to save the boyfriend is not coerced.

She's given extremely bad counsel by the guy. And she's also given an opportunity to say peace out to the guy.

Yeah. But I need to make an important point here. Yeah. If we give women immunity to commit prenatal homicide and their boyfriends decide to pressure them into committing prenatal homicide, do you realize that a boyfriend pressuring her to do that would not be a crime without equal protection?

Right. Because he's pressuring her to do something that's legal for her to do. No, we would only be able to prosecute him for pressuring her to have an abortion is if it were illegal for her to have the abortion.

You understand? So equal protection would allow us to also prosecute the boyfriend.

Right. But what you're doing when you give women immunity and impunity to commit prenatal homicide is you can't charge someone for pressuring you to do something that's legal.

That's exactly right. That's not a crime. The only way, Pastor Brian, you're exactly right. The only way to put a target in terms of justice on the boyfriend that's doing the coercing is if there's equal protection.

That's right. That's the only way because you're exactly right. If it's legal for her and she can do it with impunity and immunity, then there's nothing you can say to him.

Because he's just pressuring her to do something that's legal. I'm awful. I do want to ask Will, what about, because these situations happen all the time, what if the boyfriend wanted to keep the baby and he was trying to pressure her into keeping it and she said, no,

I'm going to murder it anyways. That's right. She's a victim there? Yeah, she's a victim. And he can't do anything about it.

Exactly right. He has no rights to kill their child. Exactly right. He has no rights. And she has every right to take that child's life.

And the pro -life establishment would not pass a law that would give that father any right to stop that mother from killing their child.

That's also another grave injustice when we oppose equal protection. I mean, this position really is horrific when you think through not only the moral consequences, but the legal ones as well.

That's exactly right. Here's more. In working the legislature, we have never considered the woman as the criminal, but as the victim.

And we need to... That's not true, Will. You stood or sat at a hearing arguing for equal protection.

So never isn't actually the case because just a little over a year ago, you were sitting before the legislature working for equal protection and the criminalization of abortion.

Yeah, that video is still up. It's still up. We just played it. And so never is actually not true, Will. Senator, we need to continue that posture now.

And I will tell you this. 25 % of all women, the research says all childbearing age women, which means all women are going to go through childbearing age.

25 % of them will have an abortion. 70 % of them have been coerced. And I just don't...

It's a false statistic. Fiction, fiction, absolute fiction.

And it gets away from the main point. How do you stop 25 % of women, one out of four women, from pursuing murdering their child in the womb?

How do you do it? By giving them immunity or actually employing the words of God about this and establishing justice so that people are instructed by righteous laws not to murder their children in the womb.

What does Ecclesiastes 8 say? I was just thinking about that. What's it say? Is that people's hearts are emboldened to do evil.

Why? Because justice isn't pursued speedily. And so because justice isn't there, because it's not being pursued, people's hearts are emboldened to do wickedness.

That's what we're saying. And so 25%, one out of every four, makes sense in a culture that says women should be able to kill their children with immunity.

Makes sense. So how do you stop it? By giving them more immunity? By protecting them as a class to kill their children in the womb?

That's not how you do it. That's not how you do it. Yeah. Believe that there's any stomach among Baptists to put 25%, one out of every four women in jail.

Please finish the sentence, brothers. One out of every four women in jail for what?

Murdering their children in the womb. It's like, we don't really believe what we say. Let's be honest here. Yeah, that's the key. We don't really believe what we say.

We're hypocrites. We're liars. We have a mask. We say all the time, sanctity of life

Sunday. We say, oh, these are in the image of God and they're human beings and they deserve to be protected and they have value and the sanctity of life and all the rest.

We say all that, but it is just smooth words. It's just smooth words. But Jeff, not only this,

Dr. Hall is saying that I am pushing for a bill of equal protection, which would result in one out of every four women being locked up for abortion.

My resolution explicitly denied that. My resolution, again, in paragraph number 11, if you read it at the end of the paragraph, it says that these laws shall not be applied ex post facto after the fact, which means when we criminalize abortion in this state, and it's going to happen one day, when we criminalize abortion in Louisiana, it would only be abortions after the effective date of that law.

We would not go and round up one in four women in Louisiana and put them in Angola Penitentiary, okay?

That's not how it would be done. My resolution explicitly said that was not the case.

Dr. Hall read my resolution and he went to the microphone and he decided to misrepresent my resolution.

And there's women in the audience and he told them that I would have one in four of them go to prison for murder. Now that is a slanderous accusation.

And if he read my resolution and he said he did, then that is wrong for him to make that kind of accusation against me.

It's not true. And he needs to just admit that that kind of manipulative argumentation that he knows is dishonest is just not how

Christian men should approach this issue. And that's the point. Well, and again, right now one out of every four women have an abortion because it's been decriminalized.

If it's criminalized, guess what? That number is going to go down drastically. That's exactly right.

That's the point. I really appreciate the biblical passages that Ryan has put in his resolution, but there's a glaring omission of one and that is

John 8. And we all know that he's in Jerusalem for the Festival of Booths.

The scribes and Pharisees are trying to trick him, trap him into making a statement because of this woman that they've caught in adultery and brought before them.

They're ready to stone him and they're demanding that he declare that he is trapped by the same laws that they are.

And as he's looking down and scribbling in the dirt, he looks up and he says, he who is without sin first cast the stone.

And those men were convicted of their sins and left. And here's the important part. He looked up to the woman and said, is there no one left to condemn you?

And she says, no one Lord. And that title Lord is reserved for the

Messiah, the Savior. So that act of compassion from Jesus led to the salvation of that woman caught in adultery.

This is a big one. It's used a lot. It's important and it's an abuse of that text, that tradition.

And it's also another example of, okay, well, brother, now do rape.

Right. Now do rape. Now do theft. That, are we really saying as Christians, well, brother, are we really saying that we don't want prosecution of criminals?

Like for example, if, and I use this example quite frequently because I think we all understand. If we're all together at a coffee shop, fellowshipping, getting in the word, praying together, and then a guy comes running up to us with a

TV in his arms, panting full of, just covered in sweat and find out that he just stole, he just burglarized someone's home, beat up the family and stole a television.

And we're all calling this man to repentance. And like, let's say we preach the gospel to the guy. And then right there on the spot, the spirit of God works in his heart.

His eyes are opened and he turns from his sin. He comes to Christ. He's now a brother in the Lord. He's experienced eternal life.

And then all of a sudden the blue and red lights show up. Cops come out, guns drawn, and they come to get the guy.

Would we really as Christians say, would we really as Christians say to the police officers, officers, you don't understand.

This man has now just turned to Christ. He's has eternal life now. He's forgiven of his sins. You can't touch him.

And there should be no justice on behalf of the family or because of what happened because he's now in Christ.

Do we really argue that way? We don't. So what is leading us to actually argue in this fallacious way to take a text like the account of the adulterous woman, which by the way, we just have to mention is an issue that comes to a textual variant.

You will see it in your Bibles. It's in brackets many times in English translations because it's one of the very few places where we have a text that sort of shows up in the manuscript tradition and then floats around and can't find a home.

And now we have the account of the adulterous woman. Now here's what I believe. Just I'll put on a record. Here's what I believe. I believe like John says, there are so many things that Jesus did.

If the whole world couldn't contain all the books about all the acts and works of Jesus. I believe the account of the adulterous woman actually happened.

I believe that it's something that Christians passed down via tradition, but it was not part of the inspired text, but I think it actually happened personally.

So let's go ahead and take a stab at it, shall we? Was Jesus there as the perfect law keeper, as the one who says in Matthew 5, 17 through 19, don't even begin to think that I've come to abolish the law and the prophets.

I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Was Jesus there actually arguing against the standards of God's law?

No, actually he was applying them because what happens there in the account of the adulterous woman is mob justice.

Question, where's the judge? Where's the trial? Where's the cross -examination? Where's the witnesses?

Oh, and lo and behold, where's the dude? Where's the guy? We found her in the act of adultery.

Oh, that's interesting. Where's the guy? So here we have this mob justice thing happening when

God's law demands that there's gotta be multiple witnesses brought forward, right? There's gotta be cross -examination.

This has to be done in an orderly court -like way. And now we have an instance of what is essentially mob justice taking place here, and Jesus doesn't play along with it.

So I think there's an appropriate way to handle that, and it's not the way you did, Will. Jesus isn't arguing there that there should never be justice for crimes in society.

He's not arguing that. As a matter of fact, what they were doing was opposed to the law of God in terms of how this is supposed to work out.

And so whether or not you believe that's supposed to be in that place in scripture, or if it's just a tradition handed down, the point is, is that's an abuse of the text and it's a manipulation of this entire situation.

Because again, here's another example of these men not able to actually confront the issue at hand and talk about equal protection and image of God and human fertilization.

So what do they do? They go to emotional stories, tug on your emotions, they abuse scripture.

And in this case, they argue against a court system and a process of courts and actually witnesses and charges being brought.

They're arguing against the court here, brothers and sisters. What they're really saying here is that if somebody can come to Christ or has come to Christ, they should never face consequences for their crimes.

Jeffrey Dahmer, perfect example. Here's a dude that was in prison for murdering and eating children and then comes to Christ in prison and no one's saying, oh,

I guess we should just let him out now because he came to Christ. Because now he calls him Lord. Yeah. The first thing that struck me about when they used this passage, that was my first question that I'm asking myself.

Okay, are you saying that Jesus, the living Torah, would upend the standards of the law that he authored?

Yeah, justice. Or the law that he embodied? I mean, is that really the position?

Jesus didn't believe that adultery should be seen as a crime any longer. Jesus didn't believe in due process, apparently.

And so therefore, I mean, we know that he pronounces, go and sin no more, right?

So he forgives the woman, gives grace. But as to the details of the criminality of the action, there's no case.

It's a mistrial. And I think God's law, Pastor James said this is really important. Like under God's law, there is the chance because of due process and the requirements not being met of guilty people going free under God's law.

Because there's a final day of judgment in which no one will go free. Exactly right. However, what

God absolutely utterly abhors is the conviction of the innocent. Right.

And obviously it's the holy speculation kind of thing. What was Jesus writing in the sand that made everyone turn away?

Probably the fact that these men were not supposed to be actually charging somebody with guilt for something they were themselves guilty of.

And so what was he writing in the sand? I wonder. That made them all walk away. But the point is, is that's just an abuse of that text.

It's an abuse of that text. Whether or not you agree with where it's supposed to be at in the Bible, or if it's just a tradition, the point is it's an abuse of that text.

And it distracts from the main issue. And the main issue is something that Brother Will can't actually engage with.

He can't actually engage with the argumentation that Pastor Brian is presenting. So I'll just finish up this last part here, and we'll actually wrap up the show and go into the after show.

Don't criminalize women. We have a legislative record. We're going to be successful.

We just won a key battle at the Fifth U .S. Circuit Court of Appeals here in New Orleans. We believe we're going to prevail also at the

Supreme Court. Will, that's enough. And can

I just say this very humbly and respectfully to Brother Will? And what you will never get to, because you've stated it here, is stopping a woman from taking the life of her child herself in the womb.

Because your worldview can't handle that. Your worldview can't address that. And so all of the legislative moves that you're doing in Louisiana, will always be lacking, because the one thing you will not do is establish justice for the true victim, the baby in the womb, because you have a protected class.

And you just said it. You were trying to protect the class of killers known as the mothers.

That is your goal. Don't have mothers go to jail. Now let's finish the thought.

Don't have mothers go to jail for murdering their children in their womb. That is your position. And I would call upon you very humbly and respectfully to repent of it, because it is inconsistent.

And it's leading to more and more death. Brian, did you get the sense that, that was, I'm watching that back now.

I mean, he was visibly perturbed. And what you need to know is that he's looking directly at me.

You can't see it on the camera. I'm just wondering if he's under conviction, is my point. He looked like he was a man under conviction also.

Yeah, I mean, I pray the Lord convicts him. I'll just share this with you, man. Since this has happened,

I've been getting phone calls and text messages from pastors in the Louisiana Baptist Convention who, before this point, have not stood with me.

And they told me they're beginning to rethink their position. And that they kind of have realized.

So one pastor who I spoke to today on the phone, you know, he told me, he said, you know,

I really can't argue with the case you presented. I mean, it's biblical. It makes perfect sense.

You know, and he said, I'm kind of really wrestling with this. But I just don't know if we should, you know, criminalize women.

And I said, okay, brother. So let me ask you a question. Is abortion murder?

And he said, of course, it's murder. I said, okay, next question. Should all murder be at least murder?

And he said, yeah, I see your point. And I said, if you answer both of those questions, yes, abortion is murder.

And all murder should be illegal. Then you agree with equal protection. So why in the world have you guys been fighting me on this?

And he said, you know what? I can't argue with that. Okay, well then just repent.

Admit you've been wrong. And do what you know scripture requires. And that is my plea.

And if I could just read one scripture, man, I really, the Lord, I think, drew me to this text over the last few days.

And Jeff had pointed it to me and pointed me to this text.

Acts 20, 26. The apostle Paul says to the Ephesian elders as he is leaving.

He says, therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all.

For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. And I just want to say, because I know my

Louisiana Baptist Convention friends are going to see this. I stood before you and brought this resolution so that I would be innocent of the blood of these children who are being murdered.

Their blood is not on my hands because I'm doing everything that I can to stop them from being murdered.

But if you stand against equal protection, their blood will be on your hands.

And I just want to say to you, I'm not angry at you. I'm terribly disappointed in men that I consider to be my brothers in Christ and close personal friends who are doing what they know is wrong and it is unbiblical.

And I believe they know it. I think you're right, Zach. They're under conviction because they know better than what they're saying.

They've been pressured to say these things. But Will is a man who stood with me in the legislature, arguing for equal protection and that anyone involved in abortion should be prosecuted for murder.

And now since Congressman Mike Johnson, now speaker, is pressuring him no longer to take that position, suddenly he's changed his position.

Brothers, the word of God has not changed. I don't care if the most powerful man in the world,

I don't care if he's the president, speaker, prime minister, I don't care. The word of God does not change and we serve the

King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and we don't bow our knee to anyone else. I have not failed to declare to you the whole counsel of God on these matters.

And I was once a leader in the Louisiana Baptist Convention on these issues.

For many years, I was recognized and celebrated as a leader fighting to end abortion.

I used to be on that platform because I was one of those leaders. And I no longer am because I wanted to be consistent and push for equal protection once Roe is now overturned and these men decided to turn back.

They changed their position, I did not. And I'm pleading with you, repent or the blood of these children will be on your hands and you will stand before Jesus and give an account.

Do not go into eternity fighting justice for these children. You do not wanna face

Jesus on judgment day if you don't do what's right here. Yep. Amen. Amen to that.

And we'll leave it at that, Pastor Brian. Again, everybody who's stayed with us, you've been watching through this.

Tomorrow, we are releasing here on Apologia Studios an interview of Pastor Brian and I discussing what we have been holding for about a year, determining when is the right time before God to reveal this.

And that is that Speaker of the House Mike Johnson worked to kill the bill of equal protection and abolition in the state of Louisiana and he was successful in doing so.

And so we're gonna reveal that information, that evidence and those witnesses right here around 5 p .m.

I believe Arizona time at Apologia Studios. I encourage you if you wanna join with us in this fight, you gotta expose this with us because as long as this is happening behind closed doors, we're never getting anywhere with this guys because it's just gonna keep getting stopped because of what's taking place here.

And so I wanna encourage you to check that out. Also next Friday, and that is Black Friday, we're dropping the documentary that has been in production for quite some time now, exposing the fatal flaw.

What is keeping all this alive? I wanna encourage you please, if you care about this at all, please share that documentary with every pastor that you know.

That is what I'm asking you to do right now is to be prepared to share that documentary and what's contained in it with every pastor that you know, all the congregations that you know.

Make sure everybody knows this is the fatal flaw. This is what's keeping it all alive. And please pray for us in that process as well as we're trying to get this information out to as many pastors and churches as we can.

And you can of course join with us by going to endabortionnow .com to help next year to us to have an actual budget to work in all these states.

I gotta just say to you, 18 states, I've been saying it to Apologia Church for some time now, 18 states is a lot to bite off.

Some of those are states that we're responsible for in terms of like we got the legislator and we're putting it together and some are we're just backing other

Christians and organizations up. But the point is, is like we're biting off a big chunk here and we need a lot of help.

We need you to pray with us. We need you to partner with us in endabortionnow .com. We need you to give financially. We desperately need your help because we're fighting an industry that dwarfs our budget by tens and tens of millions.

So we need your help. And so give at endabortionnow .com. And we're gonna go into the after show in just a moment here.

Pastor Brian, thank you very much for being with us, brother. I don't know if you have time to join us in the after show, but we're gonna do it anyways.

Yeah, you're good for that. Excellent. So we'll see you guys over the after show. But before we go to the after show, I brought it with me today because I wanted to show you.

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Absolutely. That it? Yep. All right. All right, everybody. So we're going to head over to the after show right now.

Everybody, over at APOLOGIAstudios .com. APOLOGIAstudios .com.

Join us over there. We will catch you next week right here at APOLOGIA Radio, right here on APOLOGIA Studios.