Ad hoc Arguments and Roman Catholicism

Opening Banter, Soundboard Troubles, and a Listener Challenge

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic. Here is James White.

Well, and here we go flying by the seat of our pants yet once again and why are we flying by the seat of our Pants. I need a little bit more volume there. Thank you, sir. Why we are playing with all our settings everything because we got our sound board back.

Ah, that sounds much better. We got our sound board back the real one the big one I commented when I came to the door this morning. Stop rich leaning over it. Look at all these lights and buttons and stuff and and I said it looks like the first-year Greek student looking at his first creek.

Actually, I think he was just Rewiring it completely different than the way he had it wired before and just gotta make sure everything works. So when you call in and we do want callers today at 8 7 7 7 5 3 33 41.

Just you know, if you can't hear quite right and stuff just let us know. We got some tweaking to do to get her back the way. That we want her to be but we've got we've got the real sound board back and that's that's a good thing.

That's a happy thing one one quick note in passing I Just want to make sure everyone understands. No one is saying anything about this. We don't think they have. But I just want everyone to understand sometimes people get the idea.

That if you respond to someone if you say something about someone that automatically means that everything that they do is bad and evil. And they're horrible terrible people that is not the case. There are some great folks I've I've never I have never had anyone treat me badly personally one-on-one.

And when I've gone over to California and and been at CRI and stuff like that, there's some just whoa, that was interesting. Just some wonderful folks over there in the research department. And and the journal and and especially the guys downstairs, you know.

The guys that handle the phone calls and fill the orders and you know, super stuff super folks like that I heard from two folks and I won't dare mention their names for fear of their lives, but I I was trying like anything yesterday to figure out some way to get an email through these guys Down the warehouse, but I I wasn't able to do so the email system kept saying no don't know who that is.

No, don't know who that is either. Oh, and I did that with the British accent because they specifically said we love the show and hate your British accent. And that didn't sound anything whatsoever. Like Dick Van Dyke if you really want to know so it's just Anyway just wanted to mention that in passing especially in light of where we're gonna start this morning I don't think Rich even knows I'm gonna do this, but um, I could use y 'all's y 'all's input here.

Here's what I'm gonna do. I got an email yesterday and and it's it's an interesting email. I'm gonna read you the email and What I'm gonna ask is is for your help this morning you few brave Cyber geeks that are listening to the dividing line right now live.

I would like to get your opinions. Specifically on where this person is coming from that is what is their theology? What did I do? Who did I skewer? Who did I disagree with? What did I say what debate did I engage him that got this person?

Well a tad bit on the upset side. In fact a tad bit on the ad hominem side to be honest with you. I I can't figure it out. I've got a theory but I'd like to hear from you folks because you know. In fact some of the folks the channel I've done is read it.

It's different when you hear it by by voice but I'm gonna read this this this email and I'm gonna ask you all to give me a call. You don't have to be on the air forever. In fact, if you're just a complete and total Cyber chicken, I suppose you can let rich know what you think and he can let me know.

But I'd like to hear your opinion at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I'm one of the few people you'll ever hear who will read this kind of thing up the air. So you have an idea and that this is not a usual email.

Well, who knows? Maybe it is maybe Maybe rich gets these every 15 seconds. I don't know. Because he hasn't bothered to tell me that if he did but This one came straight through to me because didn't come through the website.

And in fact the guy explains that as we read it here. But I would like, you know, listen carefully to the language and tell me what did I do? Where is this guy coming from that? He would end up writing an email like this.

So I'm gonna be dependent upon you all today for my insight into where this guy is coming from. Mr. White. I Am more than 70 years old and have been a serious student of the Bible for more than 50. I just struck me Hmm.

I know someone it's over seven years old that constantly says he's in studying the Bible for more than 50 years. But I'm couldn't be okay. I am more than 70 years old and have been a serious student of the Bible for more than 50.

I Have also studied the quote church and quote for many of those years and I am familiar with dozens of church quote leaders End quote many of whom I have met and some of whom I have been privileged to work directly with.

I've tried for months to get your private email address because I've been told that you don't read quote Regular and quote mail and that this is the only way to get something directly to you. Finally through a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend.

I got it. In my 70 plus years on this earth I have never known or heard of a church quote leader and quote with as much arrogance and false pride as you Demonstrate. I will never understand sir how you can call yourself a follower of Christ when it's clear that you've dedicated every ounce of your energy in every moment of your time to castigating and even destroying anyone who doesn't immediately Genuflect toward you and acknowledge you as the supreme theological and spiritual authority.

I Strongly suspect that your relationship with God is entirely intellectual. I believe you know him in name only. I know that's a very judgmental thing to say and I asked God to forgive me even as I write it but I see absolutely nothing in your ministry and your quote fruits and quote which I'm quite familiar with and Certainly nothing in your treatment of all the quote opponents and quote you delight in having that reflects anything that Christ stood for.

I Simply cannot imagine that anyone who had a true personal relationship with him could be so Vituperative so arrogant so disdainful so dismissive and so absolutely sure that God created them specifically to correct admonish and ridicule everyone else for the solitary purpose of Demonstrating their own Personal superiority.

I suspect that you wake up in the morning with a bank of mirrors surrounding your bed. So you can instantly see yourself from all sides and begin the day's worship right away. Regain my composure. Mr. White serving the Lord is not about proving that you alone are quote right and quote about everything all this bragging about your debates With other people all those website pictures of yourself all your pitiful flashing of your flabby quote muscles and quote Your accomplishments your children your wife your IQ and God knows what else is just so much hot air.

Sir, you meet the classic definition. Everyone be careful here of a pompous ass with emphasis on the word ass if you are truly a Christian leader. Then for the first time in my life, I would almost be ashamed to be called a Christian, too.

But I know better you do not represent the God I serve and you do not represent me. If anyone had any doubt about the profound difference between you and the people you sneer at so often All he would have to do would be to compare your website with any of theirs.

This was written by Mark James Robbins of Binghamton, New York. That's the signature full signature provided. I appreciate at least someone had the willingness to put their name on it's Mark James Robbins Binghamton, New York.

Now the question is There might be some There might be some hints in there. Okay, and here's some of the things that I and some others have picked up on because you may notice it wasn't like how dare you?

Criticize this person. How dare you criticize the church? How dare you promote Calvinism? How dare you oppose the King James? How dare you say something about? You know, whatever. None of that. Instead we have.

I've studied the church and that's in in parentheses and not parentheses of quotes. Dozens of church leaders that's in quotes. You do have the word use the word genuflect. Fairly decent grammar and spelling.

I didn't see anything that was misspelled or anything like that. And why do I say that? Well because I'm a terrible horrible, man. No, because we get a lot of emails that are you know filled with with misspelled words bad grammar all caps and be honest with you, that's Very very frequently and I know no matter how much I set this up how much I say It's not everybody or people to go.

I can't believe you said that but to be honest with you Those who answer our email will tell you that the group that tends to have the absolute worst Ability to communicate in the English language or King James only advocates.

That's it's just the fact. That's just as we look at our email as we look at the stuff. It's the folks who are in the King James only stuff That couldn't string a proper English sentence together if their life depended on and we've gotten literally Hundreds of emails like that since my book came out in 1995.

So that this doesn't look like that. So I Don't know. I I put this in I put this in the channel and we got a number of different perspectives. We've had well, he's Roman Catholic because Binghamton, New York is filled with Roman Catholics and actually Nasty stuff About Binghamton, New York to let me I feel sorry for anybody in Binghamton, New York but We we've had the Roman Catholic one.

We've we've had people guessing that he's a a well-read King James only person. And we've had a lot of folks saying well, you know, it isn't just simply Coincidence that this would come in within two three days of the posting of the Cartoon in regards to Spurgeon's gross misrepresentation of Spurgeon.

Yes. Sorry, sir Dave Hunt's gross misrepresentation of Charles Haddon Spurgeon and so maybe it's related to that and what you've got here is a an anti-reformed evangelical Dave Hunt type fan and but we don't know we don't know and now I'm looking at the calls.

Only one of them is about what I'm talking about. Everybody else wants to talk about something else I want to hear from some folks in regards to what you think where where is this person coming from? What is their background because if I start taking other calls and other subjects we never get back to this and it's just gonna And it's gonna be you know, nothing's gonna happen of it.

So I'd like to start with Frank in Arkansas because he actually called in wants to guess what he thinks cuz I don't know. I'm I'm gonna take these I'm gonna take these down and You know sort of judge from there, but let's Let's at least open a phone line because I think we are we full up right now I think we've that's pretty much it as far as the Thing so if anybody doesn't want to call in and actually guess on this they got no we have to we can take two more.

Okay, good. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one and let's talk with Frank Frank. What is well here we go. Here we go. Our first.

Reusing of the new soundboard. Frank. What you think? Okay first doctor what I think my level's a little low from the soundboard. Okay to help you get out there. And second of all, I'd like to recognize you as the supreme theological authority as we start.

In channel I said, I think he's I think he's a Catholic but you know what I think he is. I think he's a guy who got a hold of the Potters freedom and went to the website to see some more about you. Because it's the first time he ever heard of you.

How did that happen? I don't know but ah, well think about think about this Frank.

What why would there be any people within the past? Month that would get hold of the Potters freedom that wouldn't have gotten it before. Bam, there you go. That's it. That's a very good theory. That's a very good theory.

They call in they get the the to the to book. Offering that is made on the Bible and Saman book and a book and a half offering. It's made Man, and boom, you know, that's a very good theory. I hadn't thought of that one.

That's that's very good.

I think that's what it is. I think he's I think he's just a Protestant guy who for the first time is thinking about this and came to the website and You know doesn't understand your your put your personality.

I don't love in a.

Right one problem here, though I just saw in the in the in the note that might make make our theory not work at least as far as the Origination of it and that is the second paragraph starts. I have tried for months to get your private email address.

But that's assuming of course that that's true right which you don't necessarily know whether it is or isn't so.

Well, you know, you know, not many of us have your private email including me.

You don't need my private email. And I'm not mentioning it on the air there. There's a reason for this. Yes, and I'll soon be changing my private. Hey, we've got plenty more email accounts we can set up.

Well, that sounds like a like a pretty good pretty good idea there. So thank you Frank. I appreciate it. Thank you for putting up with all the abuse that you take. Okay. Talk to you later. Bye. Bye. I don't See here on my screen that says we're full up now.

I'm assuming that means there's two more calls, but I don't know who they are. So I can't. We've got and are these in regards to the email? Yes. Okay. Let's try. Jeff in South Jersey. Hi, Jeff. I'm. I don't know.

I I you know when I got up this morning someone had stolen all my mirrors and I just. It just ruined the day for me and.

Quick anecdote very quick. Yes. I'm my friend of work every time you argue with me. You just think you're right all the time. And he replied. Do you want me to argue with you when you think I'm wrong?

Yes. Yes, use utilizing logic and thinking rationally isn't a big thing in the United States anymore. It just sort of you know, let's let's not think that way. It's very you do have a tendency to.

When you think you're right you you think they're wrong and the reasons why they're wrong. Sometimes you you tell people and things like that. So maybe he was picking up on that. It's possible. And maybe that robbed him the wrong way.

I would think it was someone mentioned BAM that I was thinking. You know, especially back in the day produced up. That's true. He does say 70 years old, right? Mm-hmm. And who is the debate you had?

Oh, you mean on the program on the program? Yeah, that was Jerry matic's. Yeah, maybe it was a friend of his that would be my guess. Yeah, and Jerry's a traditionalist Catholic. So, you know that they tend to attract a little bit older audience as far as their followers go so that's that's quite possible and that would fit in with.

Well, like reading lexical entries backwards and things like that, yeah. Okay, well, you know we could do that in fact, there's a lot of political issues Right now we're be real easy to take. You know, we.

You know, I've actually done that I've done something a couple times where I've role-played a certain group and you had to call in and Guess it was but we have a local program here does a good job. They have a Politically correct Friday where they're really good.

No. No, it's not actually it's a local group of Lydian hunt here on the station here in Phoenix and they do a politically correct thing. They do it really well, and I could do a theologically correct one.

That would be that'd be really good. That sounds like fun, all righty, sir, I appreciate it. All right. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Okay, let's let's take another guess here and let's let's go. I'm trying as best I can to resist the temptation and it's very hard.

Let's go to Jason in the United Kingdom. How are you sir, I'm fine, I just can't talk to someone from England like this. Oh. Oh Lydian Hill whoever it was what I say hunts. I don't care whoever it was.

All right. Yes, sir. What do you think about my my secret admirer here? Well. So do you think this person actually would we'd be fairly close to me on the theological realm is just Deeply influenced by post-modernism or something possibly.

Hmm. I think that. Yeah, most folks who stand close to me on the theological realm already recognize the importance of truth. They don't really have a stance.

You know, they they say well I can I can see the right right. I think I think that that's.

Hmm, so that's that's my guess. All right. Well, but you know, he does still talk about being a Christian leader and stuff like that. But it's hard to say well, I appreciate that and you know, I was just listening to what you you just said the word Important and he knows how Oh gets Extended, you know, we say important and you say important, you know, and I tried, you know I tried to work that into my accent, but it people to say I'm not doing a good job.

So if I come over to England, will you give me some diction lessons? I'd love to where you at Grimsby. In Grimsby Grimsby Grimsby. I love Grimsby. Yes.

Is anywhere near? Oh and you can you can come and listen to my passive as he's Welsh.

There as well, oh wonderful wonderful. Okay. Thank you Jason. Okay. African or European swallows indeed. I could grab it by the husk. Oh. Do we have anybody else that wants to take a guess on this? Did he did he did he did he anyone else.

No no and we've given they're all okay. All right. Well, I'll tell you what I think I See both sides. I've pretty well limited it. Whittled it down. Shall we say? To it's a hotmail address that doesn't tell you anything.

And that has nothing to do with the person's name either which makes me wonder if it's the real name or not but anyway I've whittled it down to my second choice would be Roman Catholic because the area from which it says it comes from I think that's a good argument that you know, 50 60 years ago Catholic schools produced people who could who could read and write the language and therefore, you know, and then also some of the terminology not too many folks use term genuflect, but some of the terminology about church in quotes church leaders.

Maybe someone who's into a Roman Catholic who's ecumenical in their perspective and I have to wonder if possibly. There's some reference to Almost got a feeling with some of the comments about the debate to possibly the debate with Peter Stravinsky that did not go well for Peter Stravinsky's and You know, that's that's possibility number two.

I think that fits well, but I think the timing in light of the Dave Hunt article the Dave Hunt cartoon the Dave Hunt blog thing about his utilizing Samuel Fisk as the origin for his miscitation of Spurgeon and the upcoming book and and things like that, I think you put all that together and we're probably looking at someone like a Dave Hunt type fan.

Who isn't who isn't really into post-modernism, it's just. They don't mind when Dave Hunt takes a strong stand. It's just that as long as you take a strong stand and agree with this person. Then you're great and wonderful and so on so forth.

But if you dare disagree with their favorite individual, then you're you're a bad horrible person. So that's that's probably my guess. The first guess those are pretty close to each other. The more I've looked at the more I've leaned a little bit toward the second one.

But that's that's where I'm thinking and like I said, I don't get those every day. But it is it is most interesting when we do no to. Okay, well that was an interesting way to start off the program. We've had some folks who were very nicely in case you're hearing noises.

I'm trying to get my microphone working here. The it's not golden. In fact, it's sort of black and silver which most microphones are I think. It's just it's just a microphone. It's it's not golden. We're not high atop anything.

I'm just sitting in my chair in my office. So anyway, we've had some folks have been kind enough to hang around it had other questions and maybe they'll guess too. Maybe they'll be kind enough to throw in their their thoughts as well.

Roman Catholicism, Emotional Reactions, and How to Approach Conversations

Let's let's talk with Steve in New Jersey where I understand. It's very cold and gonna be much colder tomorrow. Yes, it is. What's the temperature there right now?

It's in the below 10 somewhere. No.

Well, I was out there last January and it with the wind chill. It got down to 24 below wind chill. So I I I do recall what that is like.

So they're predicting significant wind chills for tonight and and for tomorrow. This is generally unusual though. It's below well below average for us.

That I do recall been out out and on Long Island in January for five years now. And that is a little bit on the nippy side, you know what it is here in Phoenix right now. Oh. Probably 75 or 80 degrees.

No, no, no, that's that's that's that's the high end of things. We are in a desert here. We're not in a tropical climate. Okay, and so it does we do have a little bit of a C is 65 65, right? I go on for 70 today.

Yeah, and it does get down into the you know Upper 40s at night things like that.

And what and what are the rains like later on in the year?

Oh, we average I think we average 10 inches a year and we haven't been anywhere near that for a long time. The year before last 2002 we had 2 .5 4 inches the entire 12 months. Not much. No, not much. No.

Mm-hmm. So anyway, did you want to guess real quickly? Oh, I'll take a guess.

Actually what I think it could be most anybody who is who is who is literate and I wouldn't even be surprised if it's From an evangelical church somewhere. I mean I've had situations where I've objected to something and not the popular opinion and been accused of being divisive because I disagreed with somebody right.

Right, but a lot of people don't know I don't understand or don't approve of the use of anything that's considered satire or comic relief and You know, I've been known to read the door and I'm selective.

I show that to no kidding.

Yeah, you definitely have to be no two ways about it. Yeah, it does seem and I did mention as I explained the Dave Hunt cartoon now to our how to put it our legions of humor challenged Calvinists or something along those lines there there does tend to be a inability of some folks to Recognize a joke and to recognize the value of sarcasm and in case anyone's wondering.

Yeah, I do know there is a line and we do not so we do not cross it but you know There's some very biting sarcasm in the prophets. I mean read the sections in Isaiah where God is mocking the the false gods.

It is it is truly incredible. But anyways, that was not what your your question was about. No, that's okay. I.

My question was this if I have an acquaintance Who's Roman Catholic and we were just sitting around once and the issue came up and the reaction was immediate emotional and somewhat volatile. And I was curious when you have someone from a Roman cat and by the way, this was before a karate class.

So That's not good. And I was just curious in dealing with someone who is very adamant about the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church the only true Church the whole nine yards. What's the best way to approach someone like that?

Get how to suggest certain things to them and perhaps what to suggest to them readings, whatever.

Well, first of all, make sure he's not your sparring partner. That okay, make sure she's not your sparring partner can still be very dangerous and Obviously The the what you're up against there is the issue of emotions.

You're you want to try to find an approach with such an individual that would allow you to to speak of truth without Automatically raising all the emotional walls because it sounds like from just a brief description.

Obviously, I wasn't there. It's hard for me to say but from the brief description. It sounds like very strong Emotional attachment probably generational probably may have had some Cultural Connections as well.

That's always something. It's difficult to get over talking with an Italian American for example in certain areas of New York about Rome is like talking about your mama and your daddy and Very very difficult sometimes to get past that and so on the far side of the break I will give you some more possible approaches there, but we need to take our break right now and your calls are welcome at 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341 we'll be right back.

Calvinism, Divine Decrees, and Adam’s Will Before the Fall

It's all. You know.

To grace myself. Some religious place by weeping.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book.

The same-sex controversy. James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God.

James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomen .org. What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism.

False prophecy. Scenarios, no, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant.

In his book the potter's freedom. James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply. It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded.

Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate. James White Masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org.

And welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White. We're still working on that soundboard over there just to heard from one of our callers. You can't hear anything, but Hopefully we'll get that fixed here.

In fact, let's make sure we still have Steve Steve still there. I'm still here. There you are see I lost you on the phone. Yeah. Well, we'll uh, you know, there's lots of connections over there. That's one.

I guess we didn't get hooked back up. So we'll get that hooked back up and get it working in a second. Well, you know, that's okay. It works that way. Basically, you know the problem that you encounter here is is there are some folks that I can't give you any Any advice on at all because it does not matter what issues you raise it does not matter what topic you raise it is.

It is 100 emotional and there's just nothing you can do about that. However what you've got to do before you basically come to conclusion that that's never going to happen is You you want to try to have some conversations some discussions find out what they believe about the Word of God find out if They are even open to any any reading of the Word of God.

They're Roman Catholics who are not. They're Roman Catholics who are still in the old-style pre-vatican to even post-vatican to for most folks, but Mindset that basically says I don't don't need to look at the the Bible outside of my priest explaining it to me, etc.

But if they are open to it, then you might. One, you know sort of sideways way through the door would be to discuss a conversation you've had or some sort of encounter you've had with with a religious group or perspective that you and the Roman Catholic would agree together is an error and if you could Look at scripture passages regarding that where you two would agree.

Then you can start building some foundation upon which eventually yeah. Eventually to move to well, you know, this person does seem to know the Bible that it's interesting. You know what, you know, let's say you talking about Mormonism and you know, the Mormons believe that there there are many gods.

They believe in a plurality of gods and you know We believe there's only one true God and I was looking at what Isaiah said about that and here, you know Here's here's what Isaiah said about that and there's one true God and isn't the need that God is unchanging and and you could in in five minutes give them far more than most priests would ever give them on that subject in a lifetime and Start building some sort of a rapport there that eventually maybe would allow you Entrance to discuss the more important things concerning the gospel and and things like that.

So that's that's another direction. You might consider going Okay, just make sure you don't do any sparring with actual weapons. We do have a weapons class though. No, I think it's a bad idea.

We keep we keep the sparring very very light because they don't want anybody sitting. That's a really good idea. Yeah, I know. I I am at a level now that I just I know enough just to get the tar beat out of me.

So yeah, yeah, I watch what I do.

Sounds like a plan. Okay. Thanks a lot, man. Take care. All right. God bless. Bye-bye. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Let's head over to. I guess that's Oklahoma and Nathan.

Hi Nathan.

Hello Nathan, hello, dr. White. How are you, sir? All right. I called you last earth in the program to ask you a question about divine decrees and and After listening to you on the Bible answer man and thinking through that I've been trying to think about that.

How does God know? You know all things. Obviously it makes more sense that God knows all things because he decrees all things as opposed to you know God looks into the future and sees that a person has faith to believe and Thus chooses that person or God looks in the future and saw that you're going to do that.

That's knows it so to me. It makes much more sense like I assume that reform theology teaches that omniscience is God knows. Because God decreed that right? I mean, yes.

And and it flows from the fact that God created all things that that there is nothing that exists outside of God's creative decree and therefore The the the form and fabric of time itself is a is a part of God's decree because if it isn't then you have to Explain where it came from and in essence when you say that that God Knows the future in the same way that we know Sonny and Cher divorced 40 years ago.

What you're saying is God takes in knowledge now. He may do this instantly he may do this from eternity. But the fact is he had to in some fashion. Maybe not at some time because you would say God is non-temporal.

But at in some point he takes in knowledge of what's going to take place in eternity. Because it takes place outside of the activity of his will someone else's will. That is autonomous free creatures or a whole collective of them.

That is all of mankind living throughout all of human history the result of history becomes the result of their actions not God's decree now. I Tried to raise this issue on BAM and point out that if in point of fact That is the nature of God's knowledge that that he takes not he takes in knowledge in The same way we take in knowledge of the past which is the only way the Sonny and Cher thing would even work.

If that's the case then you are stuck with the reality that the final outcome of time itself Is the result of the action of the wills of men not of God's hence? Why would God be glorified in the final result it could have gone the other way it could have been a bad result.

I guess did God just just just envision all these different futures and then pick the one where oh. You know if I do it this way I'll win at the end, but not because of my will but because by choosing this one.