Ad hoc Arguments and Roman Catholicism

asking around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an Elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll -free across the

United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. Well, and here we go, flying by the seat of our pants yet once again, and why are we flying by the seat of our pants?

I need a little bit more volume there, thank you, sir, why we are playing with all our settings and everything, because we got our soundboard back, ah, that sounds much better, got our soundboard back, the real one, the big one,

I commented when I came to the door this morning, saw Rich leaning over it, looking at all these lights and buttons and stuff, and I said, you look like a first -year

Greek student looking at his first Greek text, actually I think he was just re -wiring it completely different than the way he had it wired before, and just got to make sure everything works, so when you call in, and we do want callers today at 877 -753 -3341, just, you know, if you can't hear quite right and stuff, just let us know, we got some tweaking to do to get her back the way that we want her to be, but we've got the real soundboard back, and that's a good thing, that's a happy thing.

One quick note in passing, I just want to make sure everyone understands, no one has said anything about this, at least

I don't think they have, but I just want everyone to understand, sometimes people get the idea that if you respond to someone, if you say something about someone, that automatically means that everything that they do is bad and evil, and they're horrible, terrible people.

That is not the case, there are some great folks, I've never,

I have never had anyone treat me badly, personally, one -on -one, when

I've gone over to California and been at CRI and stuff like that, there's some just, whoa, that was interesting, just some wonderful folks over there in the research department, and the journal, and especially the guys downstairs, you know, the guys that handle the phone calls and fill the orders, and you know, super stuff, super folks like that.

I heard from two folks, and I won't dare mention their names for fear of their lives, but I was trying like anything yesterday to figure out some way to get an email through these guys down in the warehouse, but I wasn't able to do so.

The email system kept saying, nope, don't know who that is, nope, don't know who that is either. Oh, and I did that with the

British accent, because they specifically said, we love the show and hate your British accent. And that didn't sound anything whatsoever like Dick Van Dyke, if you really want to know.

So, it's just, anyway, just wanted to mention that in passing, especially in light of where we're going to start this morning.

I don't think Rich even knows I'm going to do this, but I could use y 'all's input here.

Here's what I'm going to do. I got an email yesterday, and it's an interesting email.

Now I'm going to read you the email, and what I'm going to ask is, for your help this morning, you few brave cyber geeks that are listening to The Dividing Line right now live,

I would like to get your opinions specifically on where this person is coming from.

That is, what is their theology? What did I do? Who did I skewer?

Who did I disagree with? What did I say? What debate did

I engage in that got this person, well, a tad bit on the upset side.

In fact, a tad bit on the ad hominem side. To be honest with you, I can't figure it out.

I've got a theory, but I'd like to hear from you folks, because, you know, in fact, some of the folks on the channel, all

I've done is read it. It's different when you hear it by voice, but I'm going to read this email, and I'm going to ask you all to give me a call.

You don't have to be on the air forever. In fact, if you're just a complete and total cyber chicken, I suppose you can let

Rich know what you think, and he can let me know, but I'd like to hear your opinion at 877 -753 -3341.

I'm one of the few people you'll ever hear who will read this kind of thing on the air, so you have an idea.

Now, this is not a usual email. Well, who knows? Maybe it is. Maybe Rich gets these every 15 seconds.

I don't know, because he hasn't bothered to tell me that if he did, but this one came straight through to me because it didn't come through the website.

In fact, the guy explains that as we read it here, but I would like you to listen carefully to the language and tell me, what did

I do? Where is this guy coming from that he would end up writing an email like this?

So I'm going to be dependent upon you all today for my insight into where this guy is coming from.

Mr. White, I am more than 70 years old and have been a serious student of the

Bible for more than 50. It just struck me, hmm,

I know someone that's over 70 years old that constantly says he's been studying the

Bible for more than 50 years, but I'm not. Couldn't be. Okay. I am more than 70 years old and have been a serious student of the

Bible for more than 50. I have also studied the, quote, church, end quote, for many of those years, and I'm familiar with dozens of church, quote, leaders, end quote, many of whom

I have met and some of whom I have been privileged to work directly with. I've tried for months to get your private email address because I've been told that you don't read, quote, regular, end quote, mail, and that this is the only way to get something directly to you.

Finally, through a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend, I got it. In my 70 plus years on this earth,

I have never known or heard of a church, quote, leader, end quote, with as much arrogance and false pride as you demonstrate.

I will never understand, sir, how you can call yourself a follower of Christ when it's clear that you've dedicated every ounce of your energy and every moment of your time to castigating and even destroying anyone who doesn't immediately genuflect toward you and acknowledge you as the supreme theological and spiritual authority.

I strongly suspect that your relationship with God is entirely intellectual. I believe you know him in name only.

I know that's a very judgmental thing to say, and I ask God to forgive me even as I write it, but I see absolutely nothing in your ministry and your, quote, fruits, end quote, which

I'm quite familiar with, and certainly nothing in your treatment of all the, quote, opponents, end quote, you delight in having that reflects anything that Christ stood for.

I simply cannot imagine that anyone who had a true personal relationship with him could be so vituperative, so arrogant, so disdainful, so dismissive, and so absolutely sure that God created them specifically to correct, admonish, and ridicule everyone else for the solitary purpose of demonstrating their own personal superiority.

I suspect that you wake up in the morning with a bank of mirrors surrounding your bed so you can instantly see yourself from all sides and begin the day's worship right away.

I'm sorry. I've got to regain my composure.

Mr. White, serving the Lord is not about proving that you alone are, quote, right, end quote about everything.

All this bragging about your debates with other people, all those website pictures of yourself, all your pitiful flashing of your flabby, quote, muscles, end quote, your accomplishments, your children, your wife, your

IQ, and God knows what else, is just so much hot air. Sir, you meet the classic definition, everyone be careful here, of a pompous ass, with emphasis on the word ass.

If you were truly a Christian leader, then for the first time in my life, I would almost be ashamed to be called a

Christian too, but I know better. You do not represent the God I serve and you do not represent me.

If anyone had any doubt about the profound difference between you and the people you sneer at so often, all he would have to do would be to compare your website with any of theirs.

This was written by Mark James Robbins of Binghamton, New York. That's the signature, full signature provided.

I appreciate at least someone had the willingness to put their name on it. Mark James Robbins, Binghamton, New York.

Now, the question is, there might be some, there might be some hints in there, okay?

And here's some of the things that I and some others have picked up on, because you may notice, it wasn't like, how dare you criticize this person?

How dare you criticize the church? How dare you promote Calvinism? How dare you oppose the King James?

How dare you say something about, you know, whatever?

None of that. Instead, we have, I've studied the church, and that's in, in parentheses, not parentheses, quotes, dozens of church leaders, that's in quotes.

You do have the word, use the word genuflect, fairly decent grammar and spelling.

I didn't see anything that was misspelled or anything like that. And why do I say that? Well, because I'm a terrible, horrible man.

No, because we get a lot of emails that are, you know, filled with, with misspelled words, bad grammar, all caps.

And be honest with you, that's very, very frequently, and I know no matter how much

I set this up, how much I say, it's not everybody, or people are going to go, I can't believe you said that.

But to be honest with you, those who answer our email will tell you that the group that tends to have the absolute worst ability to communicate in the

English language are King James only advocates. That's, it's just the fact. That's just, as we look at our email, as we look at the stuff, it's the folks who are into the

King James only stuff that couldn't string a proper English sentence together if their life depended on it.

And we've gotten literally hundreds of emails like that since my book came out in 1995.

So that, this doesn't look like that. So I don't know. I, I put this in,

I put this in the channel and we got a number of different perspectives.

We've had, well, he's a Roman Catholic because Binghamton, New York is filled with Roman Catholics.

And actually I've heard a lot of really nasty stuff about Binghamton, New York, too.

Let me tell you. I feel sorry for anybody in Binghamton, New York. But we, we've had the

Roman Catholic one. We've, we've had people guessing that he's a, a well -read

King James only person. And we've had a lot of folks saying, well, you know, it isn't just simply coincidence that this would come in within two, three days of the posting of the cartoon in regards to Spurgeon's gross misrepresentation of Spurgeon.

Sorry, sir. Dave Hunt's gross misrepresentation of Charles Haddon Spurgeon. And so maybe it's related to that.

And what you've got here is a, an anti -reformed evangelical

Dave Hunt type fan. And, but we don't know. We don't know.

And now I'm looking at the calls. Only one of them is about what I'm talking about. Everybody else wants to talk about something else.

I want to hear from some folks in regards to what you think, where, where is this person coming from?

What is their background? Because if I start taking other calls and other subjects, we never get back to this and it's just going to, and it's going to be, you know, nothing's going to happen of it.

So I'd like to start with Frank in Arkansas, because he actually called in and wants to guess what he thinks.

Cause I don't know. I'm, I'm going to take these, I'm going to take these down and you know, sort of judge from there, but let's let's at least open a phone line.

Cause I think we, are we full up right now? I think we've, that's pretty much it as far as the things. So if anybody does want to call in and actually guess on this, they got no, we have to, we can take two more.

Okay, good. 877 -753 -3341. And let's talk with Frank. Frank, what is, well, here we go.

Our first reusing of the new soundboard. Frank, what'd you think? Okay. First, Dr.

White, I think my level's a little low from the soundboard. Oh, okay. To help you guys out there. And second of all, I'd like to recognize you as the

Supreme Theological Authority as we start this discussion. But the third thing is, you know,

I, I, I initially in channel, I said, I think he's, I think he's a Catholic, but you know what I think he is? I think he's a guy who got a hold of the

Potter's Freedom and went to the website to see some more about you. Cause that's the first time he ever heard of you.

How did that happen? I don't know, but. Ah, well think about, think about this, Frank. What, why would there be any people within the past month that would get hold of the

Potter's Freedom that wouldn't have gotten it before? Bam. There you go. That's a, that's a very good theory.

That's a very good theory. They call in, they get the, uh, the two, uh, the two book offering that is made on the

Bible and Saman, book and a half, book and a half offering is made on the Bible and Saman. And, uh, boom, you know, that's a very good theory.

I hadn't thought of that one. That's, that's very good. I think, I think that's what it is. I think he's, I think he's just a Protestant guy who for the first time is thinking about this and came to the website and, you know, doesn't understand your, your, your personality.

We all love and adore, of course. One problem here though, I just saw in the, in the, in the, in the note that might make, make our theory not work at least as far as the, uh, origination of it.

And that is the second paragraph starts. I have tried for months to get your private email address.

So, but that's assuming of course, that that's true, which you don't necessarily know whether it is or isn't.

So, you know, you know, not, not many of us have your private email, including me. It's a good reason that I don't, you don't need my private email and I'm not mentioning it on the air either.

There's a reason for this. Yes. And I'll soon be changing my private email. I think so.

Uh, Hey, we've got plenty more email accounts we can set up. Well, that sounds like a, like a pretty good, uh, pretty good idea there.

So, um, thank you, Frank. I appreciate it. Thank you for putting up with all the abuse that you got.

Okay. Talk to you later. Bye bye. I don't, uh, see here on my screen that says we're full up now.

I'm assuming that means there's two more calls, but I don't know who they are. So, uh, I can't, uh, we've got, uh, and are these in regards to the, to the email?

Yes. Okay. Let's try Jeff in South Jersey. Hi Jeff. Hi Dr. White. How are you? I'm, I don't know.

I, I, you know, when I got up this morning, someone had stolen all my mirrors and, uh, I just, it just ruined the day for me.

Um, and, um, uh, let me, uh, just a quick anecdote, very quick.

Yes. Um, my, uh, friend of work, um, he broke up with his girlfriend once. His, uh, girlfriend, uh, uh, was yelling at him and told him, uh, you, every time you argue with me, you just think you're right all the time.

And he replied, do you want me to argue with you when you think I'm wrong? Yes. Yes.

Use it. Utilizing logic and thinking rationally isn't a big thing in the United States anymore.

It just sort of, you know, let's, let's not think that way. It's very odd. You do have a tendency to, um, tell people what you, when you think you're right, that you, you think they're wrong and the reasons why they're wrong.

And, um, when you get tired of beating your head against a brick wall, sometimes you, uh, you tell people that, you know, you mentioned stuff about they're using their tradition and, uh, um, they're ignoring, you know, things like Greek and, and, and things like that.

So maybe he was picking up on that and maybe that rubbed him the wrong way. I would think someone mentioned

BAM that that's probably high likelihood, but I was thinking, um, since Catholic schools, uh, you know, especially back in the day produced people who could actually read and write well.

That's true. He does say he's 70 years old. Right. And I would, or who is the debate you had, um, on, um, online a couple of months ago?

Is that Matitex? Uh, oh, you mean on the program? On the program. Yeah. That was Jerry Matitex. Yeah. Maybe it was a friend of his.

That would be my guess. Yeah. And, uh, Jerry's a traditionalist Catholic. So, uh, you know, that they tend to attract a little bit older audience as far as their followers go.

So that's, that's quite possible. And that would fit in with, um, because you did, um, kind of mentioned, um, a few things he was ignoring that kind of thing.

Well, like, uh, reading, uh, lexical entries backwards and things like that. Yeah. That is true. Yeah. Well, next time, just to try to find an argument where you think you're wrong.

Okay. Well, you know, uh, we could do that. In fact, there's a lot of political issues right now where it'd be real easy to take, um, you know, argue, uh, you know, for George Bryson one week.

I, you know, we have maybe callers can call in and try to, you can play a devil's advocate when we can, we've actually, you know,

I've actually done that. I've, I've done something a couple of times where I've role played a certain group and you had to call in and guess who it was, but we have a local program here.

It does a good job. They have a politically correct Friday where they're really, uh, no, no, it's not actually, it's a local group, uh, uh,

Lydian hunt here on the station here in Phoenix. And, uh, they do a politically correct thing. They do it really well.

And I could do a theologically correct one. That would be, that'd be really trying to, uh, you, you can take the position of an opponent and we will try to argue with you as that sounds like fun.

Alrighty, sir. I appreciate it. Thank you. Bye -bye. Okay. Let's, uh, let's take another guest here and let's, uh, let's go.

I'm trying as best I can to resist the temptation and it's very hard.

Let's go to Jason in the United Kingdom. Hi, Dr.

White. How are you, sir? I'm fine. I just can't talk to someone from England like this.

Oh, Lydian Hill, whoever it was, when I say hunt, uh, I don't care whoever it was. All right. Yes, sir.

What do you think about, uh, my, uh, my secret admirer here? Well, um, I've often been criticized myself when

I've taken, uh, you know, a strong stance on something and it's not necessarily, you know, uh, you know, that they've got a problem with what

I'm saying, but they just don't like the fact that I'm, you know, making a stance, you know, a strong stance for it because they think that that is detrimental to Christian unity.

So I think this is probably somebody who, uh, who doesn't have a problem with anything you say doctrinally.

They just don't like the fact that you're making a stance on certain things and they think that you're, you know, causing disunity and that's, uh, and, you know, that's why they've written to you.

So do you think this person actually would, uh, would be fairly close to me on the theological realm as just, uh, deeply influenced by postmodernism or something?

Possibly. I think that... Yeah, but most folks who stand close to me on the theological realm already recognize the importance of truth.

They don't really have a stance. Um, you know, they, they say, well, I can, I can see the, uh, you know, the logic, uh, you know, for both sides of this particular argument, if it's

Calvinism or something, but, you know, it doesn't, it's not really that important. So, you know, why are we, you know, arguing about it?

Because it's just going to cause division. Right, right. And I think, I think that that's, uh, probably,

I think that that might be, uh, where they're coming from. So that's, that's my guess. All right.

Well, but, you know, he does still talk about being a Christian leader and stuff like that. I, but it's hard to say.

Well, I appreciate that. And, you know, I was just listening to what you, you just said the word important and he knows how

O gets extended. You know, we say important and you say importance, you know, and I tried, you know,

I, I tried to work that into my accent, but people just say I'm not doing a good job. So if I come over to England, will you give me some diction lessons?

Um, I think if you were coming to visit Grimsby and, uh. I'd love to. Where are you at?

Grimsby? Grimsby, yeah. Grimsby, yeah. That's a lovely name, isn't it? Grimsby, yeah.

I love Grimsby. Yes. Is it anywhere near Hull? And you can, uh, you can come and, uh, listen to my passive as he's

Welsh. Oh, Welsh. And he's got an accent there as well. Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. Okay.

Thank you, Jason. Okay. African or European swallows. Indeed.

I could grab it by the husk. Oh, do we have anybody else that wants to take a guess on this?

Hmm. Did he, did he, did he, did he, anyone else? No, no. And we've given, they're all okay.

All right. Uh, well, I'll tell you what I think. Um, I, I, I see both sides.

I've pretty well limited it, uh, whittled it down, shall we say? Uh, two, it's a hotmail address that doesn't tell you anything.

Um, and that has nothing to do with the person's name either, which makes me wonder if it's the real name or not. But, um, anyway, um,

I've whittled it down to, uh, my second choice would be, uh,

Roman Catholic because the area from which it says it comes from, uh, I think that's a good argument that, you know, 50, uh, 60 years ago,

Catholic schools produced people who could, uh, who could read and write the language and therefore, you know, and then, uh, also some of the terminology, uh, not too many folks use the term genuflect, but, uh, uh, some of the terminology about church in quotes, church leaders, maybe someone who's into a

Roman Catholic who's ecumenical in their perspective. And I have to wonder if possibly, uh, there is some reference to, uh, almost got a feeling with some of the comments about the debate to possibly the debate with Peter Stravinskis that did not go well for Peter Stravinskis.

And, uh, you know, that's, that's possibility number two. I think that fits well.

Uh, but I think the timing in light of the Dave Hunt, uh, article, the, uh, Dave Hunt, uh, uh, cartoon, uh, the

Dave Hunt blog thing about his utilizing Samuel Fisk as the origin for his miscitation of Spurgeon and the upcoming book and, and, uh, things like that.

I think you put all that together and, uh, we're, we're probably looking at someone, uh, like a, um, a

Dave Hunt type fan, uh, who isn't, who isn't really into postmodernism.

It's just, uh, you know, they don't mind when Dave Hunt takes a strong stand. It's just that as long as you take a strong stand and agree with this person, then you're great and wonderful and so on and so forth.

But if you dare disagree with their favorite individual, then you're, you're a bad, horrible person. So, uh, that's, that's probably my guess.

Uh, the first guess, those are pretty close to each other. Uh, the more I've looked at, the more I've leaned a little bit toward the second one, but, um, that's, that's where I'm thinking.

And like I said, I, we don't get those every day. Uh, uh, but, uh, it, it is, it is most interesting when we do know two ways about it.

So, okay, well, that was an interesting way to start off the program. Uh, we've had some folks who were very nicely, in case you're hearing noises,

I'm trying to get my microphone working here. The, it's not golden. In fact, it's sort of black and silver, which most microphones are,

I think. It's just, it's just a microphone. It's, it's not golden. We're not high atop anything.

I'm just sitting in my chair in my office. Um, so anyway, uh, we've had some folks have been kind enough to, uh, hang around and had other questions and maybe they'll guess too.

Maybe they'll be kind enough to throw in their, their thoughts as well. Uh, let's, uh, let's talk with Steve in New Jersey, where I understand it's very cold and it can be much colder tomorrow.

Yes, it is. What's the temperature there right now? Oh, it's in the, uh, below 10 somewhere.

Oh, well, I was out there last January and it, uh, with the wind chill, it got down to 24 below wind chill.

So I, I, I, I do recall what that is like. So, uh, they're, they're predicting significant wind chills for tonight and, uh, and for tomorrow.

Uh, this is generally unusual though. It's below, well below average for us. Uh, that I do recall.

Been out, out and on Long Island in January for five years now. And, uh, that is a little bit on the nippy side.

Uh, you know what it is here in Phoenix right now? Oh, probably 75 or 80 degrees. No, no, no.

That's, that's, that's, that's the, uh, high end of things. We are in a desert here. We're not, uh, in a tropical climate.

Okay. And so it does, we do have a little bit of a, it's 65, 65 right now, going for 70 today.

Yep. And it does get down into the, you know, upper forties at night, things like that.

And what, and what are the rains like later on in the year? Uh, we, we average, I think we average 10 inches a year.

And we haven't been anywhere near that for a long time. The year before last, 2002, we had 2 .54

inches the entire 12 months. Not much. No, not much. No. So anyway, uh, did you want to guess real quickly?

Oh, I'll take a guess. Um, I actually, what I think it could be most anybody who is, who is, who is literate.

And I wouldn't even be surprised if it's, uh, from an evangelical church somewhere. I mean, I've had situations where I've objected to something and not the popular opinion and been accused of being divisive because I disagreed with somebody.

Right. Plus a lot of people don't know, don't understand, or don't approve of the use of anything that's considered satire or comic relief.

And, um, you know, I, I've been known to read the door and I'm selective, so I show that too. No kidding.

You definitely have to be. No two ways about it. Yeah, it does seem. And I did mention, as I explained the

Dave Hunt cartoon now to our, uh, how to put it, our legions of, uh, of, uh, humor challenged

Calvinists or something along those lines. There, there does tend to be a, uh, inability of some folks to, uh, uh, recognize a joke and to recognize the value of sarcasm.

And in case anyone's wondering, uh, I do know there is a line and we do not, uh, we do not cross it, but you know, there's some very biting sarcasm in the prophets.

Uh, I mean, read the sections in Isaiah where God is mocking the, uh, the false gods. It is, it is truly incredible.

But anyways, that was not what your, your question was about. No, that's okay. I, um, my question was this, is

I have a, an acquaintance, um, who's Roman Catholic and we were just sitting around once and the, um, issue came up and the reaction was immediate, emotional, and, uh, somewhat volatile.

Um, and I was curious when you have someone from a Roman Catholic, and by the way, this was before our karate class.

So that's not good. And I was just curious in dealing with someone who is very adamant about the teachings of the

Roman Catholic church, the only true church, the whole nine yards. Um, what's the best way to approach someone like that?

Um, or, um, how to suggest certain things to them and, uh, perhaps what to suggest to them, readings, whatever.

Well, first of all, make sure he's not your sparring partner. Okay. Make sure she's not your sparring partner.

It can still be very dangerous. Um, and, uh, obviously the, the, what you're up against there is the issue of emotions.

Uh, you're, you're, you want to try to find an approach with such an individual that would allow you, uh, to, to speak of truth without automatically raising all the emotional walls, because it sounds like from just a brief description, obviously

I wasn't there. It's hard for me to say, but from the brief description, it sounds like very strong, uh, emotional attachment, probably generational, probably may have had some, um, uh, cultural, uh, connections as well.

Uh, that's always something that's difficult to get over talking with an Italian American, for example, in certain areas of New York, uh, about Rome is, is like talking about your mama and your daddy.

And, uh, very, very difficult sometimes to get past that. And, uh, so on the far side of the break,

I will give you some more possible, uh, approaches there, but we need to take our break right now. And, uh, your calls are welcome at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1.

We'll be right back. Under the guise of tolerance, modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality.

Even more disturbing, some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In their book, The Same Sex Controversy, James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the

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In a straightforward and loving manner, they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

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Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the word of God, James White in his book,

The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .AOMIN

.org. About in his book, Chosen But Free, A New Cult, Secularism, False Prophecy Scenarios?

No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, But The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.

In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potter's Freedom, A Defense of the

Reformation and a Rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at www .AOMIN

.org. And welcome back to The Dividing Line.

My name is James White. We're still working on that soundboard over there. Just heard from one of our callers, you can't hear anything.

But hopefully, we'll get that fixed here. In fact, let's make sure we still have Steve. Steve, still there?

I'm still here. There you are. I lost you on the phone. Yeah, well, we'll, you know, there's lots of connections over there.

I guess we didn't get hooked back up. So we'll get that hooked back up and get it working in a second.

Yeah, I almost called you Dr. O, too. Well, you know, that's okay. It works that way.

Basically, you know, the problem that you encounter here is there are some folks that I can't give you any advice on at all, because it does not matter what issues you raise.

It does not matter what topic you raise. It is 100 % emotional, and there's just nothing you can do about that.

However, what you've got to do before you basically come to the conclusion that that's never going to happen is you want to try to have some conversations, some discussions, find out what they believe about the

Word of God, find out if they're even open to any reading of the Word of God. There are Roman Catholics who are not.

There are Roman Catholics who are still in the old style, pre -Vatican II, even post -Vatican

II for most folks. But mindset that basically says, I don't need to look at the

Bible outside of my priest explaining it to me, etc., etc. But if they are open to it, then one sort of sideways way through the door would be to discuss a conversation you've had or some sort of encounter you've had with a religious group or perspective that you and the

Roman Catholic would agree together is in error. And if you could look at Scripture passages regarding that where you two would agree, then you can start building some foundation upon which eventually to move to, well, you know, this person does seem to know the

Bible. That's interesting. Let's say you're talking about Mormonism, and the

Mormons believe that there are many gods. They believe in a plurality of gods, and we believe there's only one true God.

And I was looking at what Isaiah said about that, and here's what Isaiah said about that, and there's one true

God. And isn't it neat that God is unchanging? And you could, in five minutes, give them far more than most priests would ever give them on that subject in a lifetime, and start building some sort of rapport there that eventually maybe would allow you entrants to discuss the more important things concerning the gospel and things like that.

So that's another direction you might consider going. Okay. Just make sure you don't do any sparring with actual weapons.

Well, actually, we do have a weapons class, too. No, I think that's a bad idea. We keep the sparring very, very light, because they don't want anybody getting hurt.

That's a really good idea, yeah. In fact, I am at a level now that I know enough just to get the tar beat out of me, so I watch what

I do. Sounds like a plan. Okay, thanks a lot, man. Take care. All right, God bless, buddy.

Bye. 877 -753 -3341. Let's head over to,

I guess that's Oklahoma, and Nathan. Hi, Nathan. Hello, Nathan.

Hello, Dr. White. How are you, sir? All right. I had called you last, or Tuesday before last, and had a couple of minutes there at the end of the program to ask you a question about divine decrees, and after listening to you on the

Bible Answer Man and thinking through that, I've been trying to think about that. How does

God know, you know, all things? Obviously, it makes more sense that God knows all things because He decrees all things, as opposed to, you know,

God looks into the future and sees that a person has faith to believe, and thus chooses that person, or God looks in the future and saw that you're going to do that, thus knows it.

So to me, it makes much more sense, like I assume that Reformed theology teaches it, omniscience is

God knows because God decreed. Is that right? I mean... Yes, and it flows from the fact that God created all things, that there is nothing that exists outside of God's creative decree, and therefore the form and fabric of time itself is a part of God's decree, because if it isn't, then you have to explain where it came from, and in essence, when you say that God knows the future in the same way that we know

Sonny and Cher divorced 40 years ago, what you're saying is God takes in knowledge.

Now, He may do this instantly, He may do this from eternity, but the fact is He had to in some fashion, maybe not at some time, because you would say

God is non -temporal, but at some point, He takes in knowledge of what's going to take place in eternity, because it takes place outside of the activity of His will.

Someone else's will, that is autonomous free creatures, or a whole collective of them, that is all of mankind living throughout all of human history, the result of history becomes the result of their actions, not

God's decree. Now, I tried to raise this issue on BAM and point out that if, in point of fact, that is the nature of God's knowledge, that He takes in knowledge in the same way we take in knowledge of the past, which is the only way the

Sonny and Cher thing would even work, if that's the case, then you are stuck with the reality that the final outcome of time itself is the result of the action of the wills of men, not of God's, hence, why would

God be glorified in the final result? Well, it could have gone the other way. It could have been a bad result,

I guess. Did God just envision all these different futures and then pick the one where, oh, you know, if I do it this way,

I'll win at the end, but not because of my will, but because by choosing this one, that's how it all works out.

Yeah, that's sort of what middle knowledge is all about, by the way. That's one of the theories that people have thrown around out there. It's amazing how many people think it's a viable alternative, and yet I just sort of, again, maybe this offends people, but I sort of put my hand up and I go, yeah,

I know about middle knowledge, but could you show me where you derive that from Scripture?

Could you show me? And people go, well, no, of course not, but it's a philosophical thing.

Yeah, but I sort of like to see these things coming from Scripture, and then you go off into other discussions. But anyhow, but yes.

And so, yeah, I agree with everything you said. The only question I have, then, is how does that work with Adam?

Because obviously God didn't just know that Adam was going to sin. He would have had to decree that, and I don't dispute what you said, because everything you said makes perfect sense as I'm trying to understand all this, but I just, how would

I tell somebody, like I do a Bible study with a guy that's a new believer, and we've been talking about salvation and God's sovereignty and things, and it's like, how do

I just tell him that, you know, Adam did have a choice to rebel, but yet God decreed,

I guess, how would I say that, that he did rebel? I mean, I don't know how to say that. That's my question. Well, you know, it's interesting to me,

I think the new believer who hungers and longs for the Word of God, the best place to be with a new believer at that point is within the

Word itself, and what I mean by that is, I remember a few, just a couple years ago,

I had the opportunity of teaching a second -year Greek course where you exegete a book of Scripture, and it happened that year because of some stuff we were doing in another city and all that we ended up doing

Ephesians, and walking through Ephesians with a group of graduate students, and what was, what's really neat about where I teach at Golden Gate Seminary here in Phoenix is that these are individuals who are already involved in ministry, it's not like the campus setting where frequently you get a real disconnection, sort of the ivory tower type thing, but at Extension Seminary you really get people who are very grounded and practical in many ways, and walking through Ephesians 1 and doing it on the basis of the

Greek text, and doing it where, you know, as soon as the hands start coming up, what about this, what about this, we are right at the point where you can answer all of those exegetically, and in fact,

I can challenge them as the teacher, alright, where did you get that from the syntax of this and the grammar of that, it was just wonderful to see the impact of just allowing the word to speak, not allowing everything else in, just, we have to walk through the text, and the problem is, nowhere in the

New Testament, nowhere in the Old Testament do we have the discussion that for some reason everyone,

Norman Geisler is real big on this, when I was writing The Potter's Freedom and I went back through his older works, this in his mind is, as far as I can read it, and as far as I can follow his argumentation, in his mind this is the coup de grace, this is the ace in the hole in essence, in his mind,

Adam is the issue, he even talks about John Gerstner at this particular point,

Adam is the issue, if you cannot give an absolute documented exegetical discussion of the relationship of the decree of God and Adam in a pre -fall state, then your system can't work, well the problem is, of course, that neither can anyone else, because there's only two chapters in the entire

Bible that address Adam pre -fall, and they do not ever mention his will, the nature of his will, his capacities or incapacities, or anything of the kind, the only passages in the

Bible that you have that address the specific interface between the sovereign decree of God and the will of man is of fallen man, and the only other discussion you have in the

New Testament really is the federal headship passages, where Adam is said to be the head of a fallen humanity, where Christ is the redeemed humanity, and again, there's no discussion of how it is that clearly

God not only knows the future, but because he knows the future, he does so on the basis of his decree, hence the fall of Adam is a part of that decree, and yet God says that he does not, in modern lingo, put a gun to someone's head and force them to do evil, so how could

God know this if it's not a part of his decree? Well, that's a question that's valid for any

Christian theist, and that's why I don't include open theism as a part of Christian theism, is a

Christian, an open theist would say, wow, God was really blown away when Adam fell, I mean, he knew his possibility, but he was just really bummed, he was really bummed, and you might say, no one would ever say that, yes, open theists do say that, but aside from them, anyone who says

God has exhausted knowledge of the future has to answer the exact same question. Norman Geisser may think he knows the answer to that question, but I don't think it's a consistent system in which he tries to use the knowingly predetermining and predeterminately knowingly and all the rest of that stuff that I discuss in the second chapter of the

Potter's Freedom, so they really have the exact same problem, except they will say that, well,

God decreed, or God created, he knew that Adam would fall, he did not know, he did not decree the mechanism, but the mechanism was sure.

Well, how is it sure? They don't know, they can't answer that question, they don't have any more of an answer than we do biblically simply because the scriptures do not address the subject, it's not there, and so if you're asking, well, how would

I answer that, I would answer that by saying, well, the scriptures say to the law and to the testimony, if they do not speak in accordance with this word, there is no light in them, and there is this statement in scripture that the secret things belong to the

Lord, the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, and will we know someday?

Well, maybe, I don't know, it's not discussed in scripture, I can only go with what the scripture teaches, and at this point, anyone who accepts everything scripture says has to believe that not only did

God know that, but in light of his purposes in Jesus Christ, that it was a part of Yeah, well, and I agree,

I just, I was like, well, how do you, because we are studying Ephesians 1, and in our study, and it's like, you know, we get into all these questions of, you know, salvation and God's sovereignty, and then, you know, well, the beginning of, you know,

God, and I mean, you know, obviously he doesn't have a beginning because he's eternal, but you go back to Genesis, and we've been getting into all these things, and he has all these great questions, and I was like, how do

I explain to him, Adam had a choice, or a chance, I mean, he could have, but yet God had it decreed,

I guess the best thing is, is to just say we don't know, I mean, it was obviously part of God's plan, his divine decree, as you said, and his purposes for Jesus Christ, and everything, but Yeah, but I think the important thing is to emphasize the fact that we're asking a question that the scriptures actually do not direct us to, and do not address, and so the real question is, do, what is the fundamental foundational motivation that people have, that in essence, demands of God, that he reveal everything that we want him to reveal?

In other words, one of the problems I've had over the years in dealing with this particular area is the attitude that many people have that, that I don't, you know, one of the things

I really appreciate about, about John Calvin's writings, and a lot of folks who criticize him have actually not read much of them, or at least they've only read the sections they wanted to read.

I've always found, for example, it very significant that the section on prayer immediately precedes the section on God's predestined decree, and it's significantly longer.

There is a real, very practical, and, and, and pious, and I mean that in the proper term, the positive way of it, element of Calvin's writings, and one of the things that Calvin did was he said, there are times when we have to accept

God's right to say, this is as far as I am going to reveal my purposes to you.

It is your responsibility to bow in humble obedience and to be obedient to what I've revealed, not to say, well, you know what, if you don't reveal more,

I'm not going to believe what you've already said, and that unfortunately is an attitude that I encounter a lot.

Calvin frequently said, others as well said, look, this is a subject that needs to be handled with respect, it needs to be handled with care, and it needs to be handled in a way that recognizes we're dealing with some of the highest revelations that God has made of his own purposes, the, the purposes, the

Father, the Son, the Spirit, inter -Trinitarian communication, the whole nine yards, and to treat it with, with disrespect and to, to act as if we somehow have the right to tell

God what he's going to say and what he doesn't say is a horrific attitude. And I really think that there is, there is a, a missing element of respect for God when we come into this and say, look,

I've got my list of questions and God, if I'm going to believe what you say in your word, when in Daniel 4,

Nebuchadnezzar recognizes that you are the sovereign king of all things and no one can stop your hand, not my will, but your hand from happening, and when your, your word says these things in Isaiah about being the creator of all things and with the beginning of the generations and the end of the generations and sovereign over all things and when your hand moves, no one can stop you and your purposes are fulfilled and man's purposes are set aside.

I'm not going to believe any of that unless you satisfy my creaturely desires to have x amount of information.

That is not the attitude of the heart that has been renewed by the Spirit of God. That is a humanistic attitude.

That's a rebellious attitude. And that's why I think really fundamentally the, the truths, the doctrines of grace only become real in someone's heart when, to borrow a, a line that I used to use in, in old emails back in, in, in the

BBS days from the book of Job, may God grant you an interview.

And what I meant by that was when God came to Job and he began asking questions, where were you when

I laid the foundations of the earth? Where were you when I set the boundaries of the oceans? Where were you when I set the stars in the heavens?

And after all these rhetorical questions, because the answer is very clear, I wasn't anywhere.

I am a pot. I am a creature. I am a vapor, a wisp that disappears with the rising of the sun.

What does Job do? He puts his place, his fate, his, his hand upon his mouth.

He, he silences himself and he recognizes I have erred in trying to bring

God to the judgment bar of my demands. And that's why I believe that honestly, in, in the final analysis,

I have seen people who have professed to coming to know the doctrines of grace and what they,

I mean, they even gave evidence of it. They maybe even switched churches, whatever they, they could quote the five points and they could defend the five points and, and all the rest of that stuff.

But if that doesn't happen within the context of worship and a recognition of the sovereignty of God and the holiness of God and the power of God that changes the way we look at ourselves and change the way we look at God, then

I honestly believe that that kind of a quote unquote conversion to the doctrines of grace is the type of conversion that may well not quote unquote stick.

It may end up being just a temporary thing. And when the pressures of the world, the lust of the world, whatever it might be, comes along, all of a sudden that person is one of those people we read in on the net sometimes and say,

I was once a Calvinist. Well, maybe you professed the, the external formulations of doctrine, but unless that is joined with that heart -changing, mind -changing, life -changing recognition of the potter and I am the clay,

I don't think that the, the understanding has really gone from the head to the heart. And that, that 18 inch leap between the two is frequently what is, what is missing.

And so that sermon was for free, but it does, it does, it does speak to me anyways, concerning the best way to present this.

In my experience, I've introduced a lot of folks to doctrines of grace. There's a lot of folks, there's folks in our channel right now that are, that would put their hand up and say, yep,

I, I today, I hold the doctrines of grace because of your books, or I ran into you in the chat channel or whatever it might be.

I've introduced a lot of folks to doctrines of grace. And I honestly believe that the only way in which someone is truly made convinced of those things is through the consistent ministry of the

Holy Spirit of God, making alive the word of God. It's not the syllogisms, it's not the logic, all those things are there and, and they're fine, whatever.

However, the fact of the matter is, when you're talking to someone, say about the, the atonement of Christ, unless there is that recognition on that person's part that Christ substituted for me, he bore my sin, not just a theoretical thing, but it was my guilt.

I'm the one that, that put him there and, and I was undeserving.

This isn't just theoretical, it's not just hypothetical. He, my name was upon his lips and it was purposeful, unless that is a part of it, it, it just doesn't take, it's not something that stays.

But those people where you really see that happening, you'll see them going through difficulties in the rest of their life, difficult trials and hardships, but they remain steady because they have that anchor, because they've had that, that interview with God, that Job had.

And so, uh, in answering questions like that, that's why I sounded like a broken record on the

Bible Answer Man broadcast. I kept saying, let's go back to the text of scripture. If we don't allow

God to speak, we're not going to be accomplishing anything in this particular conversation.

And I don't believe anyone ever does, unless it is based upon, uh, the exegesis, the honest grappling with the word of God.

And so when God doesn't speak on an issue, then we just have to say, well, that's just part of the mysteries of God that we don't know.

Well, not only that, yes, but not only that, I would turn into something positive. I would say, look, we need to recognize that God has the right to tell us, uh, what to believe.

And then he has the right as the sovereign King. I mean, no one says that every conversation that the president of the

United States has, uh, should be webcast. I mean, we all recognize that would be ridiculous.

And that a person in that position needs to have the ability, uh, to, to have private, you know, to, to determine what is good for other people to know.

Well, if that, if we recognize that in governmental issues, gracious sake, should we not recognize even more so the right of the sovereign

King? I honestly think if we were more truly thankful for the breadth of the revelation we have, have you ever thought when you look at John 17 or you look at Colossians one, we have been given there, there are times when the very veil of eternity has been, has been pulled aside so we can look into things that happened in eternity between the father and the son.

If we were properly thankful for that kind of revelation, if we would just think for a moment, what it would be like to be left with, with nothing as far as God's revelation is concerned, which he could have done if he had chosen to do so.

I think if we had that kind of, of thankfulness for the depth of the revelation, recognizing we've barely even begun to even understand it, then we would not be like those who are, they're like the people who, who are in a beautiful room that's filled with beautiful furnishings and pieces of art.

And they're standing over at the wall and they're staring outside the windows at the junkyard outside the building.

They're wanting to go outside. They don't even see what's inside. That's how a lot of folks in the church are today.

They don't realize the, if they aren't really truly thankful and in love with what they've got in the revelation of God, then they're going to be one of the first ones to in essence say,

Hey, I want more. I want God to, to conform his revelation to my desires.

And so I think if we put it in that context, well, you know, as I've said many times before, Christ's sheep will hear

Christ's voice and they will, they will respond. And, and those who do not, you just, you know, you pray for them and, and you go from there.

But that's, you know, that's, that's my, my understanding. Well, thank you very much. I, cause

I just wondered how to try to explain. I just wondered if there was some way to try to explain that, but you know, if there's not, then

I know God has decreed, you know, everything cause he's working, as you said, all things out to the counsel of his will.

And just got to trust him that sometimes he doesn't tell us everything. So we just have to, well, we can, we can trust the sovereign

God who has revealed his truth to us. Hey, Nathan, thank you very much. God bless you for calling. Thanks for listening to the dividing line today.

Um, hate to tell you this, but I'm headed to New York next Tuesday morning and I'll be there on Thursday.

So if we decide to maybe do something on a Monday, just for the fun of it, if we can, I'll obviously let you know on our blog site.

So make sure to check on that and who knows, maybe angel comes up with a new cartoon. You always got to check. See you next time on the dividing line.

God bless. Alpha and Omega ministries.

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