March 25, 2024 Show with Owen Strachan on “The Warrior Savior”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 25th day of March 2024.

I'm absolutely thrilled to have a returning guest today. His name should be familiar to most of you in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listening audience. His name is Dr. Owen Strand. He is an author, a very popular conference speaker, and he is the provost and research professor of theology at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas.

And today we are going to be addressing his latest book, The Warrior Savior, A Theology of the

Work of Christ. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Owen Strand. Thank you so much, Chris. Thank you for having me back on. Well, why don't you tell our listeners who are unfamiliar with Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, something about that fine institution.

Yeah, Grace is an institution that's been around for roughly five years. We recently got full accreditation from Arts, as it's called.

And excuse me, we have about 80 students in central Arkansas and we're training men for pastoral ministry.

We have a very focused, tight mission, but we serve a great God and we are anchored in confessional reform faith, but especially sola scriptura and the sufficiency of Scripture is applied to all disciplines in all areas of life and ministry.

So that's a quick word about GBTS. I'm thankful to be here. Amen. Well, if anybody wants to find out more information about this fine seminary, go to gbtseminary .org.

GBT for Grace Bible Theological Seminary .org. GBTSeminary .org.

Well, Owen, this book that you have written, The Warrior Savior, A Theology of the

Work of Christ, has attracted a lot of very positive attention.

And in fact, let me read a few of the endorsements that have been written for this by men who have been guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a number of times.

First of all, the president of Grace Bible Theological Seminary that we just mentioned, Dr. Jeffrey D.

Johnson. He says, A masterful work on the doctrine of the Atonement. One of the most impactful books

I have read on the topic. It is a biblical theology of the cross that captures the most epic battle in human history.

This excellent study is how theology is meant to be understood and experienced. And also, my dear friend of many years,

Josh Bice, not only the founder of the G3 Conferences and G3 Ministries, but pastor at Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia.

Pastor Josh says, Our God has waged war against the forces of evil, and they are no match for his power.

Our God has won the victory in the salvation of every one of God's people. This excellent book is accessible by the average church member and is likewise packed with rich theological depth on the

Atonement of Jesus Christ. Take up and read. And we also have a wonderful commendation by my dear friend since 1996,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. This is a great resource for believers no matter how long they have walked with the

Lord. So, obviously, those are extremely impressive commendations by extremely impressive men in the body of Christ.

And can you tell us, what was the catalyst behind you even saying to yourself,

You know, there have been many things written on the death of Christ and the redemption that that accomplished.

But there's something that I want to say about this issue that is not really all contained in one volume.

And I really want to add my own thoughts to what is already on the shelves in our libraries.

What was the really compelling factor behind this? Yeah, great question. There were two main burdens.

The theological burden was to unite, as we see in Scripture, penal substitutionary atonement and Christus victor.

So, I believe, and I argue in this book, The Warrior Savior, that the victory that Jesus wins over the devil in terms of Colossians 2, 13 to 15 and other texts, specifically in the

Old Testament, Genesis 3, 15, the crushing of the serpent's head is accomplished as the

Son of God makes atonement for the sins of all his people. So, in other words,

I don't think that you can splice apart penal substitutionary atonement,

I'm going to call it PSA from this point forward, and Christus victor. I don't think that Christus victor is for the liberals or the moderates.

I think that Christus victor as a model of the atonement is for the church. It's squarely taught in Scripture.

But sadly, a lot of folks who have championed Christus victor over the centuries have not anchored it in PSA.

And so, I believe that you have to bring the two together, and when you bring the two together, Christians get a ton of assurance, because actually, our sins are atoned for, and that means that Satan has lost.

Satan has lost the decisive battle. We await the return of Jesus to make all things right, of course, but the work of our salvation, the work of our redemption, is finished.

That was the first theological burden. The second burden of this book, The Warrior Savior, is a practical burden, and what

I mean there is that a lot of Christians are used to food fights over John 3, 16, and the extent of the cross, and so then things end up with us discussing how limited the love of God is or the cross is.

There's a lot we can talk about with regard to limited atonement. I affirm definite atonement and what is meant by limited atonement.

I don't use the language limited atonement, because there is absolutely nothing limited about the atonement.

But anyway, here's the practical point. We can talk about this more, Chris. Any of those dimensions

I mean. What can end up happening is that we whittle down the love of God so that it unwittingly, no pun intended, seems very small.

And what emerged as I worked on this book over almost six years was this.

There is no greater display of the everlasting love of God than the cross of Jesus Christ.

And so that's what I pray is communicated to readers. The love of God is sometimes isolated as the only attribute of God that really matters.

There's squishy churches out there that basically teach that, and that can lead to a reaction on the part of Reformed people where we go, we're not going to be squishy.

We're not going to talk about this lovey -dovey stuff all the time. We're talking about the holiness of God. In reality, we don't choose between holiness or love.

But I would actually argue that the love of God is the primary message of the

Bible, the love of God for the people of God to the greater glory of God. So there's two burdens of the book.

Amen. Well, I think it probably would be helpful for you to give us working definitions of Christus Victor and that understanding of the death of Christ on Calvary, and also the more detailed understanding of that truth of Christus Victor that has more information about what

Christ actually accomplished, which would be the substitutionary atonement.

I don't know if you've experienced this, Owen, but it seems to me that something that usually was exclusively the term and the concept of substitutionary atonement, this was something that Reformed Christians, or those who believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace, nicknamed

Calvinists, those that believe in the tulip, as it were, this term used to be exclusively used by us, and now almost every—in fact,

I can't even think of an Arminian or a non -Calvinist with whom I've had a discussion who didn't immediately say, oh,

I believe in substitutionary atonement, but they're not really thinking clearly about how this concept and even that phrase cannot be correctly understood logically and consistently according to a non -Reformed understanding of what

Christ accomplished on Calvary. Am I making sense? Sure. You absolutely are. There's a lot you just suggested we put on the table here.

Let me just say this very quickly. I think that the questions about the extent of the atonement are answered by investigating the nature of the atonement.

So I believe that the atonement makes atonement for sin for all

God intends it to be sufficient for. And so if you're looking at the nature of the atonement, the atonement is not a work that accomplishes a kind of locked -in conclusion but not really a definite conclusion.

To speak English a little more clearly, the atonement accomplishes what it is supposed to accomplish.

The atonement is supposed to clear the guilty through the blood of Jesus Christ, and that is exactly what the cross does.

The cross then does not make our salvation possible. The cross secures the salvation of all for whom

Christ died. And so that is how I would enter that conversation over extent of the atonement.

I would say to answer that vexing matter, look to the nature of the atonement.

The cross clears the guilty, which means that the cross cannot be sufficient for those who are not the elect, who are not chosen by God to have their sins cleansed.

In terms of the earlier questions about definitions, Christus Victor is basically this.

It is the view that in his death, Jesus overcomes the devil. So it is the overcoming of the devil.

It is the victory of Christ. Penal substitutionary atonement in brief means that Jesus paid the penalty for us.

He died as a substitute sacrifice in our place. So those terms can sound somewhat intimidating, and there is all sorts of discussion about them, but basically when we are talking about PSA, we are simply saying that Jesus died in our place to take our penalty on himself.

Wonderful, glorious, life -giving truth. And with Christus Victor, we are saying Jesus in dying for us, in substituting himself for us, won the victory over the devil, paid the price we could not pay, and crushed the head of the serpent.

So we are no longer bound to the serpent. We no longer live in fear of Satan. We no longer, Hebrews 2, 14 to 18, live in fear of death.

All of that is resolved. This does not mean, of course, that we are not going to stumble, and we are not going to have numerous points throughout our life.

Where, you know, we do slip into fear and sin in those ways. We are. We all do. And we can't be

Wesleyan functional perfectionists in that regard. However, the cross of Christ is powerful, and when we doubt whether we are saved, we look to the cross.

When we doubt whether God loves us, we look to the cross. When we doubt whether Satan is overcome, we look to the cross.

Amen. Now as far as something that you mentioned in the beginning of the show, as to a part of the reason that compelled you to write this book, it seemed to me you were seeking to liberate the concept of Christus Victor to those who are improperly using that phrase and concept, and you mentioned liberals and so on.

How is this being misunderstood and misused? Well, commonly, the way

Christus Victor is employed by liberal or moderate theologians in the Protestant world is they will talk about the victory of Christ over the devil, but they won't describe where the victory is found.

Right. And so you end up with a very indefinite victory. Jesus died for us, and in dying for us, he overcame the devil.

Okay, that's an interesting formulation, but what does that mean? How? How is

Christ victorious over the devil? Certainly when I look out at the world by eyes, by sight, it doesn't look like Jesus has overcome the world in natural terms.

What does this victory mean? Well, you have to dig into scripture, I think, in order to answer that question well, and I believe that the victory

Jesus wins is squarely through propitiating the wrath of God on our behalf, drinking the wrath of God for us, and then expiating us, cleansing our guilt, such that Satan can no longer accuse us of our sins.

We are no longer guilty when Satan says we are guilty. I don't mean we don't commit sins here and now, but I mean in terms of our standing with God, in terms of redemption, in terms of atonement.

Full atonement has been made, the work is finished, and so Satan cannot condemn us in judicial terms any longer because on the basis of the finished work of Christ, God has granted to us the gift of saving faith, and so through faith and faith alone, we are justified in the sight of God, and so all of this builds into a tremendous understanding of assurance that we won't have, frankly, if we have

Jesus just dying for us, but not overcoming the devil. Jesus has died for us, great news, and Jesus has overcome the devil in doing so.

Now, I have heard that there was an extremely problematic, if not heretical, understanding of Jesus having victory over the devil, that perhaps some of the early

Church fathers declared as their understanding that we're in error, where Jesus is actually paying a ransom to the devil to rescue those who are captured and enslaved by the devil, but that's not what happened on Calvary, is it?

No. In that view, which was held by a number of Church fathers, you're right, the payment of atonement had to be made to the devil, which is bizarre.

That was a bizarre formulation by the fathers. You know that they're working through things.

You know that they don't have the benefit of 21 centuries of historical theology reflecting on Scripture to work with, so we don't want to be proud or exalt ourselves over the

Church fathers. They made so many important contributions, and yet in the area of atonement, this is one reason why you need to be very careful about lionizing the tradition uncarefully, because if you're not careful, you can think all the

Church's really important theology was hammered out in the fourth century or whatever century you want to choose, and we don't really need to reflect on Christian theology anymore, and nothing could be further from the truth because the

Church fathers got so many things right in theology proper, but in terms of atonement, they got things, honestly, fairly badly wrong.

So, yeah, just to say this again in synthesis, no, there is no sense in which

Satan was owed any kind of ransom payment. I talk about this in the book, The Warrior Savior. God is the context of atonement.

It is the father who sets up atonement, and it is the father who sends the son to be our atoning sacrifice.

It is the father who is propitiated by the son's death, and it is thus the father who grants us forgiveness.

It is in no sense the devil. The only thing the devil does in the work of atonement is get his head crushed.

Right. Amen. Now, when we speak of propitiation and the turning away of the father's wrath from us, who deserve that wrath, there may be some that have a softened view of that that may be pictured by Jesus Christ holding up a shield of some kind where the wrath is being poured and being deflected off of us, but it's not really that, is it?

Isn't it that he absorbed that wrath? He took it upon himself. That's exactly right.

The way you should understand this, I think, metaphysically, is not to tie yourself up in knots.

You know, well, wait, did he drink it? Well, wait, did vibrations go into his body?

What do you mean, satisfied? We don't want to get into weird territory here unnecessarily.

All we need to do is simply point to, you think of Levitical atonement, you think of Old Testament atonement.

What takes place? Well, there are a couple slain animals at the apex of the

Day of Atonement ceremony, and one is slain for sin, and one is the scapegoat, bearing the guilt of the people into the wilderness, right?

And so Jesus dies in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement, and Jesus thus is the one who is slain for us in our place, bearing our guilt.

And so what we should think of in terms of the wrath of God, how Jesus satisfies the wrath of God, is very simply one word, death.

Jesus dies in our place. And in dying, he is taking on the curse and dying the fate we deserve to own.

That's how we should understand Jesus taking the wrath of the Father. I don't think it's primarily, in other words, in terms of electric rays of wrath that are emitted from the

Father's anthropomorphic eyes or something like this. No, it's the act itself.

It's Jesus dying in our place so that we don't have to die and drink the wrath of God.

Amen. And I've got a couple of more questions for you, myself, before we go to listener questions, but I'll ask those at the beginning of our next segment because we have to go to our first commercial break.

If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, her own strand, on his book,

The Warrior Savior, or more specifically on the death of Christ on Golgotha and what exactly that accomplished and for whom was it accomplished, any questions such as that would be welcome at chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to further ensure we will get 100 % of the profits. We're now back with Dr.

Owen Strand who is a provost and the research professor of theology at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas.

We are discussing his latest book, The Warrior Savior, The Theology of the

Work of Christ. And if you have any questions, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com

and we do have some people already waiting for their questions to be asked and answered but let me ask first of all a couple of my own.

You mentioned earlier that, unless I misunderstood you, that you prefer the terms definite atonement and perhaps even particular redemption over limited atonement and you said there's nothing limited at all about the atonement but isn't the scope for which it is or was intended limited?

Isn't the number of people whom was the intended beneficiaries of the atonement limited to a specific fixed number?

Yes, definitely. So the atonement is limited in my judgment to the elect. There are solid theologians out there who would disagree with me and would argue for an unlimited atonement.

There are some texts that are debated there and I don't agree with the unlimited side in those discussions.

I don't think they best interpret the scripture there but I'm glad to have a friendly, gracious, charitable conversation over that and that's not the line of saving faith in my understanding.

It is true, secondly, that the atonement is limited then to just the elect and so it is technically correct to say in terms of extent, yes, there is a limitation there.

But here is what I don't like and what I reject personally in my own theology.

I reject now that my Arminian friends have forced this issue.

I reject that now I am dealing with a kind of small vision of God's love and they get to have a really big vision of God's love.

And so all I want to do in this book The Warrior Savior and in my broader ministry, humble as it is, is very much remind the church and anyone else listening that the love of God is not small love.

The love of God is everlasting love. Jeremiah 31 3. The love of God is massive. The love of God is huge.

The love of God is why Jesus Christ came to earth. It was for love that he came to lay down his life.

God so loved the world. I don't interpret world in John 3 16 to mean that Jesus died for every single person as I'm at pains to say.

But I do want to very much not be trapped into a small love box by debate partners in my reading of John 3 16.

I want to say Jesus died for the elect straight up. No shame in saying that. Not blinking. But that's not small love.

That's incredible love. That's love that has covered us in the blood of Jesus Christ.

All our sin is forgiven. And that by the way has purchased for us because it means that as Christians we were not simply loved on the day of our conversion.

I think that too many Christians have what you could call a conversion day theology of grace.

Here's what I mean, Chris, very quickly. I think they think that all the wonders of biblical salvation were concentrated on that day, whether that was six weeks ago, a year ago, five years ago, 20 years ago, or 60 years ago.

On that day love poured into my life. And so we look yearningly back at that day whenever it was, or if we can even identify it.

And what I want to say is that is absolutely a miraculous day when we were converted, when we were born again.

That's when things flipped. That's when we crossed over from the anti -kingdom of wrath to the kingdom of Christ.

The domain of darkness to the domain of Christ. Yet, we need to understand as Christians, that's when all the graces of God started pouring into our life, and all the love of God started rushing into our life in experiential form, and that's never stopped.

And so I'm at pains to say several of these things in this work and help Christians. I'm trying to right -size our doctrine of God's love and say, we shouldn't give this away, we shouldn't shrink this, nor should we think that God loved us 40 years ago, but isn't really loving us today very much.

No! He loves us incredibly much now. Hallelujah.

And before I go to listener questions, I have one more question of my own.

Is there anything that you attempted to correct from your understanding and your perspective that you believe is either incorrect or perhaps not stated well from our own camp, from those who profess to be

Reformed Christians? Well, what we were just talking about would be one of those areas,

Chris. Great question. I do think that Reformed Christians have overreacted.

I think that we are far more reactionary people than we might like to admit. I think that I, Owen Strand, am far more reactionary than I might like to admit.

I can see a reactionary tendency in myself when someone annoys me.

You know, there's a flash of annoyance in my heart. Perhaps at least one listener out there will understand that instinct.

I think we all do, actually. In our theology, too, it's easy to be reactionary.

It's easy, in other words, in terms of this discussion of the love of God, to hear squishy evangelicals talk, to get some video clip of some pastor boiling everything down to divine love with no room for divine holiness, and go, we've got to crank up the holiness dial.

We've got to preach hard doctrine to this soft generation. I understand those instincts, and I very much want to preach the holiness of God.

I love the holiness of God. I don't want to pit the holiness of God against the love of God, because the Bible does not do any such thing.

What I do want to say is, maybe I should be a little careful about a reaction here, and maybe while I am seeing people genuinely not preach the whole counsel of God, maybe

I do need to very much remember that Scripture throws a spotlight on the love of God.

So the way to overcome deficiencies in evangelical circles where there are squishy churches that have no understanding of God's holiness, and thus

Christian morality, I would argue the way to overcome that bad teaching, that unsound doctrine, is not to shrink your understanding of love, and ramp up your doctrine of holiness, or justice, or whatever.

It's to keep these things in proper biblical balance, and not to be a reactionary, but a reformer.

What I mean by reformer is somebody who goes to the Scripture in order to be reformed by the

Word of God, not their own emotions, not their own opinions, not their reactions to the culture.

Amen. Well, we have a listener in Carroll Stream, Illinois named Wade, and Wade says,

How do you overcome the opposition to a Reformed understanding of the

Atonement from people who say it is injustice to conceive of a

God holding accountable men and women who will be sent to hell for not embracing

Christ's finished work on Calvary, if that work had not been performed on their behalf?

Uh, good question. A lot to unpack there, but fundamentally it sounds like what the folks raising the questions to the

Reformed side are saying or alleging is that the Reformed understanding of the Cross is unjust, gives us a

God who is unjust. And I think we have to start where Cornelius Van Till, the great

Westminster theologian, started in terms of his study of Scripture. It's not his idea. It's God's idea.

But I think we have to start with actually the doctrine of creation. The doctrine of new creation through Atonement in terms of redemption only makes sense if you start with the doctrine of creation.

So you have to correlate creation, new creation, don't you? And that means that we have to understand every person is created by God.

And so every person is not an autonomous individual as modern identity theory would tell them.

Every person is nothing other than a creature. That's all we are. We're a little tiny creature made by the

Creator. We are not God. We are different and distinct from God by an impassable gap.

God has made us in His image, but there is no ontological button we could push to become

God Himself. He is of a different order than we are. And so that means that all we are as human beings are creatures.

And the clay that we are has no rights over the potter.

And so all of that entails that we have to submit to what the Word of God teaches about us.

We don't rage against God. We don't raise our fist against God. We don't negotiate terms with God.

Whatever God has set up is good and just and right. And the Bible teaches that God holds sinners to account for their sins.

And the Bible teaches from start to finish that a very good and loving and kind God makes a system of atonement such that sinners who have no right to know

God can be made clean and can enjoy fellowship with God. I talk about this in the book, but you think about lepers.

A book that nobody really runs to preach from is the book of Leviticus. It would not be very high on the list of preachers' most coveted preaching subjects.

And yet, there is absolute gold in the book of Leviticus. And you think of how

God engages lepers through atonement. God pronounces them clean at the end of a lengthy cleansing process, a lengthy atoning process.

Well, that's telling us we are lepers. We don't have rights over God, but a very, very, very gracious God has set up a system where the worst of us, and that's all of us, can stand before God and know

God's love. That's incredible. Amen. And we have a similar question,

I think, that's a very good segue to that one. We have

Jace in Apopka, or Apopka, Florida.

And Jace asks, although most every

Christian I've ever met agrees with Matthew 5, 45 through 47, that ye may be the children of your father which is in heaven, for he maketh his son to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.

Nonetheless, I have met Reformed Christians who disagree over the love of God.

There are some that say that God has no love for the unelect or the reprobate, whereas others say he has love universally for all of his creation and mankind, but different kinds of love.

Where do you stand on this, and if you could explain? Yeah, that's a very good question.

Sometimes in Reformed circles, there is not much of a doctrine of what we call common grace.

And we have to do justice to common grace, and realize that God absolutely, in the key focus on his saving grace, and yet there are numerous passages that show that God acts in grace to many people, to all people really, besides just his redeemed people.

In the book of Acts, you have the apostles, for example, telling unbelievers that God has filled their hearts with gladness through food, and through what he has provided for them.

And so, I wouldn't use the language myself that would say that God loves the nonelect.

Romans 9 teaches us that God does not love the nonelect. I do think, though, that God shows,

Scripture clearly teaches, that God shows grace to the nonelect, and what I mean by that is common grace.

God lets unbelievers, who will never be saved, I mean, enjoy life, build a family, eat good food, go on trips, read good books, watch good movies, all sorts of things, and by good,

I mean enjoyable there. And so, I don't want to so emphasize salvific grace, or special grace, as it's often called, that I do away with common grace.

There is real common grace. By the way, in Old Testamental terms, it's grounded in the Noahic Covenant, in God fundamentally not, at every given moment, or on regular intervals, flooding this earth again, destroying this earth again, that in itself is an act of tremendous kindness of God toward all humanity, including people he will never grant the miracle of the new birth to.

So, God shows special grace to some, the elect, God shows common grace to all.

I don't think that means that God loves unbelievers, because I don't think we have biblical language that would enfranchise that sort of position, but I do think we are right to say that God, in an appropriate form, in terms of definition, is gracious to all people.

And I am assuming, then, by your use of the term common grace, that you disagree with probably a minority of our

Reformed brethren who believe that the term grace should only be applied to a theology and to concepts that are salvific.

I remember having a disagreement with a Reformed brother who did not believe we should be using the term common grace because it implies that grace is equally distributed upon the elect and reprobate, and he believed that grace should only be used in salvific senses.

But I said, hey, if something is undeserved, like God's goodness, which he agreed takes place every day,

God's goodness does shower down upon even the reprobate and the evil, but he seemed to be insistent that we should only use grace for salvation purposes.

So I'm assuming, then, you disagree with that. I do, because grace is any kindness of God that is not deserved.

It gets much deeper than that. There are different forms of grace, but fundamentally grace is any kindness

God gives that you don't deserve. That's distinct from mercy, which is God not giving you what you deserve, right?

And so there's a distinction between mercy and grace, and then there's different levels or measures or forms of grace.

The text I was thinking of, by the way, is Acts 14, 17. This is Paul and Barnabas and Lystra and being surrounded by idol worshipers.

And so this is no neutral context, if you will. And in Acts 14, 16, they say this,

Barnabas and Paul do, in past generations he, God, allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways, yet he did not leave himself, verse 17, without witness, for he did good to them, they're saying, by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.

He did, excuse me, good by giving you rains. So, however you want to frame it,

Chris, God did good to unbelievers in a non -salvific way.

The common way to speak of that is common grace in theological terms. The apostles go so far as to say that God satisfied the hearts of unbelievers, please note, with food and gladness.

That's another bit of a mild update, I would say, on the Reformed movement in general, where we can sometimes talk as if there's nothing good in the world, period, outside of saving grace.

You do find that view out there among some Reformed people, but honestly, Chris, I don't think it passes the

Biblical sniff test. And, by the way, I'm going to hope

Lou is still listening. Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia. Owen already answered the question about Jesus' death, paying a ransom to the devil.

So, I guess you tuned in late. If you could submit a different question, that would be wonderful, unless you have anything to add to that answer,

Owen. I don't have anything major to add other than to say, as we were covering a little bit earlier, that that view was very influential.

And it's a little frightening, actually, in terms of historical theology, to realize how long that view predominated, and the sharp, strong caliber of theologians who passed it down, including

Augustine, who's really considered the heavyweight of the first 1 ,500 years of the

Church's theologians. It's a reminder, Chris, I said this earlier, I'll repeat it, that you've got to be really careful with the tradition and historical theology.

The tradition and historical theology feature lots of good insights for us to ponder and even treasure.

But the tradition itself is not authoritative. It is the Scripture and the Scripture alone that is authoritative, and frankly, this is in addition to what we were talking about, it is not until the

Reformation that atonement theory really gets straightened out. Anselm proposes in the medieval period what is called the satisfaction theory of atonement, but he largely centers satisfaction in terms of the honor of God.

It's the honor of God that is satisfied in the cross. The Reformers and those who come after the

Reformers are going to correct that. It's not that God's honor isn't satisfied by Christ, I think rightly, but it's that there's so much more going on in what is satisfied in the cross.

It is the justice and the wrath of God that is satisfied. That's why it is so significant for Christ to drink the cup.

That's why in Gethsemane, he's looking into the contents of the cup and he is just stunned by them afresh because him drinking the cup is going to mean that he is under the judicial condemnation of the

Father. And so, there is a lot of recovery that has to be done in the doctrine of the atonement.

Thomas Aquinas and others mangled the atonement. The church fathers even up to Augustine frankly did not get the atonement right.

I'm searching for the right verb there, but that's a more precise way of saying it, frankly. They didn't get the atonement right.

And that's very humbling. That doesn't mean now we bundle everybody up before the reformers and we toss them into the sea.

We're not saying that. We are saying we've got to approach church history very carefully, the tradition very carefully and not think that there aren't things that had to be seriously corrected in light of Scripture.

Okay, Lou, so make sure you send us a different question because even though Owen expanded upon his answer earlier on the very same question, it would be great to have another thought in your wonderful brain.

Let's see here. We have Patricia in Great Neck, Long Island, New York who asks,

I have heard different Calvinists explain John 3 .16 differently.

Some say that Jesus did indeed love everyone but only loved his elect in a saving way and some would say that he only loved his elect, and this verse is actually teaching

God so loved the world, meaning the elect from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Are either of those concepts something that you would hold to?

Yeah, I would fundamentally say that I don't think the world there in John 3 .16

is meant to be interpreted as every single person without exception.

God so loved the world in John 3 .16 is saying God loved his creation in this way.

That's how I would interpret for God so loved the world. For God so loved the world he made, the creation he produced through his son, in other words.

John 3 .16 is not a text that says, that teaches that everybody's sin is atoned for.

If you think theologically for a minute, if your sin is atoned for, there is no way that you can justly be condemned.

What our free will friends will say, our unlimited atonement friends will say, is that the atonement makes salvation possible and then the good of the atonement, the gift of the atonement has to be received by faith.

So it's effectively like, on the Arminian side, the cross is effectively a free gift that you have to go claim.

It's sort of like those mailers you used to get in the mail. Hey, you've won a contest, just show up here and claim your prize.

The atonement in that vision is not fully effective until it's claimed by faith.

I would argue that the Bible and the Reformed tradition teach the opposite, that there is indeed a moment when the atonement is believed upon in the person being saved by God, but the atonement was fully sufficient in the moment

Jesus died to pay for all the sins of the elect and so the atonement, as I said earlier, does not make salvation possible.

The atonement makes salvation certain, and what that means in terms of practical encouragement for Christians, let's not just leave this doctrinal.

This means that every man or woman out there looks back at the cross and says, I was saved there.

I was purchased there. God showed his love for me there.

And so I never have grounds to doubt that love. Amen. And we're going to be right back after our midway break.

Don't go away. I'm Dr.

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I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. Owen Strand as we continue our discussion of his book

The Warrior Savior and our friend Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia who sent in a question too late that Owen already answered he has another question for Owen Lou says you mentioned that Aquinas mangled the doctrine of the atonement of which

I'm not surprised since he claimed he is claimed by the Catholic Church as a doctor.

What I am surprised at is I think that's a grammatical error here what

I am surprised is the fascination and propagating of Thomas amongst some

Reformed Baptist brothers. Do you have any thoughts on why they're recommending him and that would probably be also a great opportunity for you

Owen to plug Jeffrey D. Johnson's two books on that subject Yeah, Aquinas basically teaches that with the atonement there is this what is sometimes called medicinal effect and so Christ's death on the cross does matter for the forgiveness of our sins but in reality where Aquinas located a lot of the power of atonement was in the celebration of the mass it's in the mass that our sins are effectively repealed and cleansed so Aquinas would not say that in order to look to where your sins were decisively forgiven all you need to look to is the cross of Jesus Christ which is what

I would say Aquinas would say absolutely the grounds for the atonement of your sin are found in the cross so in this way

Aquinas is a theologian of the cross as Roman Catholicism has a doctrine of the cross the problem though is when the paragraph is not stopped the problem is when the paragraph continues and for Aquinas and for the

Roman Catholic tradition you have to marry both the cross of Jesus Christ where atonement really is begun with the celebration of the mass it is in the mass as the body and blood of Jesus Christ is represented and then as that is appropriated not simply through faith but through acts of penance that is how atonement for sin is made in the

Catholic system if you add all that together that is not biblical atonement if you go to the book of Hebrews for example you recognize that atonement is perfect and finished and final when

Jesus himself dies that's why earlier we were talking about how do we understand where the wrath of God was satisfied what does it mean that the wrath of God was satisfied did

Jesus drink something metaphysically no it's in his death his death is the payment for sin that is the penalty that we should have paid but Jesus paid and that's why we can say there is no other act of atonement necessary the book of Hebrews says that is the one effectual sacrifice for sin it is so effectual we can say by extension there is no further sacrifice or re -appropriation or re -presentation necessary that is why

Aquinas and the Catholic tradition are not on sound ground that is one reason why you should not look to Aquinas in this area of theology or more broadly he's one to read in different areas and study he's a brilliant man but he is not a sound guide in numerous areas of Christian theology he leads you away from what the scripture teaches even as he traffics in biblical categories and verses and biblical themes yes

I know that from my own experience anyway that the vast majority of reformed

Christians who allowed Aquinas as a great hero including one of my heroes the late

R .C. Sproul it seems to be in the vast majority of instances his understanding of the

Godhead the Trinity the nature of God and do you think that it is wise even if you agree with a great figure from history about other issues outside of the gospel itself that it's very dangerous to be by name identifying yourself as a tomist for instance or just singling out this individual from history because of the damage that may done when people may wrongly get the impression that you are following Aquinas in other areas it is puzzling to me as well why folks would be going to the lengths that they are giving such high accolades to Aquinas when he did indeed have a false gospel he had the same gospel that was echoed century later at the count centuries later at the

Council of Trent that's exactly right that's why the Summa is the only book on the table of the

Council of Trent alongside the Bible it's the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas and Thomas Aquinas is doctrine is the doctrine that standardizes

Roman Catholicism so if you are talking about Roman Catholicism as it has been passed down through the centuries in terms for example of the sacramental system which is a false system of salvation if you follow and practice what the

Catholic Church teaches then you are talking about Aquinas' understanding of salvation it's when we see somebody making errors in soteriology especially grievous errors especially gospel denying errors as Aquinas does

I wouldn't want to say they never could be saying something true in another area of their theology they could be so Aquinas for example on just war theory has some interesting ideas maybe even profitable ideas we could say but I would not

I would not at all want to point students to Thomas Aquinas purely out of soteriological concerns and then

I would also be one who like Geoffrey Johnson as you alluded to has major concerns in other areas as well not just soteriology but theology proper

Aquinas I believe has a vision of God that definitely overlaps with scripture but owes as much to extra biblical philosophy as it does to scripture and it's not possible to mix together extra biblical thought and biblical thought all

God's truth is truth we know that unbelievers do think rightly in different areas some of us learned math or science from unbelievers for example but it is another thing entirely when you're saying follow this theologian and that theologian has unbiblical soteriology and mixes in Aristotle with his doctrine of God creating an entire attribute not taught in scripture the immobility of God for example so Aquinas is a brilliant man

Aquinas is not wrong on everything but Aquinas is in no way the theologian that seminary professors should be pointing to their students as a sound guide he is not a sound guide and it grieves me that that is happening to this day where that is happening it should not be happening yes and I would also include in that category

Pope Benedict he even when he was before he was elected to the papacy he was prefect of the congregation for the doctrine of the faith of the

Roman Catholic Church and many things that he believed and taught were spot on but his heresies are great enough that we cannot view him as a sound guide am

I overstepping here? no I agree with that you think about John Paul II as well who stood against communism powerfully in the west we are not those at least those who

I train at the seminary level anyone I would impact in a very humble way in ministry who want to say either a thinker is all good or all bad and only the all good thinkers ever get anything right that's not true there are people out there who are a complex blend and that is very true when it comes to theology there are theologians who you think basically as best you can tell have it all right and then there are theologians on the other end of the spectrum that as best you can tell just about have it all wrong and there's a big mix in the middle and so we don't want to say just because for example we disagree with Roman Catholicism and it's salvific doctrine we don't want to say that a pope could never speak truly about something if you read for example

John Paul II's Theology of the Body I don't agree with everything in it to be sure

I don't agree with the broader system it comes from but there's actually a lot of very stimulating thinking about the body, the male and female body in his writing that's just one example of how we don't need to jump to the conclusion that a theologian wrong in one area has nothing true to say but what we are talking about here you and me in particular is who to point students to as a model there's a difference between saying this theologian is provocative and you can read him carefully in certain areas and then saying this theologian

I would point to you he's not perfect but he's a model for you of sound doctrine and sound life and sadly people are pointing to Aquinas not as a provocative theologian that you really can learn from in certain ways and disagree with in these areas they're pointing to him as the model par excellence of protestant theology and that is not sound that is not faithful that is not correct

By the way Lou and this also goes for everyone who has submitted a question so far that has been read and answered on the air you have all won a free copy of this book that we are addressing today by my guest

Owen Strand the Warrior Savior a theology of the work of Christ please make sure you give us your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship these copies of this book out to you if you are a first time questioner let me know because you'll also receive a new free copy of the

New American Standard Bible and all of that will be shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com

and we want to thank our friends at P &R Publishing who published this work by Owen we want to thank them for supplying us with a limited number of free giveaway copies that we are sharing with our listeners today let's see we have

Judith in East Rutherford New Jersey and Judith says

I have many friends that can become easily annoyed when

I try to explain to them how important precise theology is because they are saying that I am killing the spirit in doing so that I am being too enslaved to the letter of the law etc how would you recommend and counsel that I respond to people who think that we should just lift up Jesus and not be overly concerned with the minutia and the absolute rigid detail like things we are addressing today and so that was with the question is with regard to particularities of atonement theology is that what

I'm assuming if Judith wants to clarify any further but I'm assuming since that's what you're talking about ok

I don't know what the state of the conversation is between Judith and her friends or her peers or interlocutors

I guess is a broader term but fundamentally it's easy to say I believe in Jesus let's start there lots of people out there in America still today in 2024 say you talk to them in a coffee shop you talk to them on the plane they say

I believe in Jesus when they find out you're a Christian but that is in terms of the opinion

Judith is facing from whoever she's discussing this with that's the end of the conversation if somebody says you believe in Jesus I believe in Jesus too well then you just hug

I guess in public and jump up and down and that's it you go on your merry way and you met a sure fire

Christian we don't want to be the uptight doctrine police over here that's not what

I'm trying to write books to encourage or something like that we want to be those who have a spirit of grace and truth like Jesus, John 1 17

Jesus had a gentle and lowly spirit, Matthew 11 29 that should mark reformed people not a proud, uptight, angry spirit and sometimes that can be true for us, some of us can see that instinct in us and so we want to work against that but fundamentally if somebody says to you

I believe in Jesus too that is not the end of the conversation that is the beginning of the conversation and that's not because again you are an unofficial member of the uptight doctrine police to create a new government post here that is because you have to figure out which

Jesus they are talking about, you have to figure out if they are talking about for example prosperity theology

Jesus are they talking about achieve your biggest dreams and goals Jesus are they talking about fitness influencer

Jesus, are they talking about woke Jesus, are they talking about community activist Jesus, are they talking about guns and liberty

Jesus who are they talking about so it is possible that someone could get into to use my term earlier in the show food fights at every turn and it is possible for people out there to fall prey to the stereotype of the cage

Calvinist who makes every conversation someone has positively about God into a shouting match, that's not a good thing, that's a bad thing right, but if somebody says to you

I believe in Jesus or I follow Jesus this can be switched into lots of different sayings right you haven't ended the conversation you've begun the conversation and I would encourage

Judith to say to her friends or to those she is discussing this with hey friends,

Mormons say they believe in Jesus lots of people, Joel Osteen says he believes in Jesus people who do terrible mass shootings write notes dedicated to Jesus sometimes you know, they've gone crazy in other words is the crazy person's

Jesus the true one? you've got to parse what people mean that's just one example there's all sorts of other areas of theology to talk about too

I hope that encourages her an example of a

Mormon who a lot of Christians out there will claim as their brother in Christ is

Glenn Beck Glenn Beck I agree with him on so many things politically and I appreciate the stances he takes on popular stances even amongst conservatives but he's not our brother in Christ if he is truly a

Mormon and I've even seen folks that he's interviewed who

I actually call him their brother, I'm talking about people who are among the best selling

Christian authors out there one of them which was at one time a friend of mine who

I actually created his very first radio special in the 1990s and he's now a world famous author and so on,

I was very dismayed listening to him call Glenn his brother on the interview that Glenn conducted with him so you gotta be very careful about that stuff and Judith please give us your full mailing address in East Rutherford, New Jersey because you have also won a free copy of the book

The Warrior Savior by our guest today before we go to our final break in about 15 minutes

I really want to make sure that you highlight elements of The Warrior Savior that you most want to expound upon, that you most want to display for our listeners in detail so that they get the best understanding of this book and why they should purchase it well that's always the question that warms an author's heart into a roaring flame so thank you

I would say in addition to some of the elements we've talked about like the love of God being

I think the central theme of scripture which is a strong thing to say and not what everybody says

I would say here's one element of The Warrior Savior, this new book that I hope helps people in apologetic circles one of the strongest arguments against Christianity made

I should say most vociferously most forcefully has been the idea that the

Old Testament God is angry and raging and malevolent and Jesus in the

New Testament is soft and gentle and peaceable there's lots of things to say in response to this very very bad

Marcionite framing but one of the things that I try to bring out throughout The Warrior Savior is this that is totally wrong not simply in its presentation of Jesus in the

New Testament because you think of Revelation 19 Jesus as the avenging king coming back to earth not to hand out daisies but to destroy his enemies, right?

So this argument is wrong on both counts against Christianity the other side is wrong as well because the

Old Testament does not present a God who is raging and out of control the

Old Testament God visits destruction on the wicked in different places it is absolutely true and we need not blink at that God is right in all he does but fundamentally what you also need to bring into your discussion in apologetics and evangelism with people who would say something like the

Old Testament God is despicable I could never worship that God one of the things you need to say is that the

Old Testament God is the one who makes atonement for sin the Old Testament God is not the one who calls people to legalistically do good works such that they can earn his favor and then know him the

Old Testament God is the one who comes to the guilty who presents himself in Exodus 34 as not quick to anger but slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love

Exodus 34 6 and 7 and out of that abounding love that Old Testament God sets up an entire system by which wicked sinners can draw near to him and then in Isaiah 53 we see the culmination of the coming

Messiah in that the suffering servant is this mysterious person who is going to lay down his very life for sin in other words the

Old Testament points us not simply to bulls and goats being sacrificed for sinners which is already an act of immense kindness on the part of God toward his people his repented people but the

Old Testament God points to a coming figure a coming man who will make perfect atonement for sin and so it is not true here's what

I'm saying in synthesis it is not true that the Old Testament God is raging and out of control and there are by the way bad theologies of the

Old Testament God and the New Testament God they're the same God there can be in some churches that are trying to do justice to the holiness of God there can be a presentation of God as angry against his people but that is not a sufficient or sound biblical picture of how

God especially in the New Covenant deals with his people in the Old Covenant God is abounding in love and slow to anger with his people and in the

New Covenant when atonement comes to perfect expression we learn that because of the work of Jesus we've been transferred out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of the sun and Ephesians 1, that's

Colossians 1 .13 and Ephesians 1 final text here putting a lot on the table but Ephesians 1 teaches us that it is

God the Father who set up the entire system so Christian in some apologetically and for your own life never fall prey to the bad argument that God the

Father is not loving toward you. That is not true. Now could you provide some examples of how you believe from witnessing and hearing and so on those that have erred in this way about painting a picture of God that is angry at his own children that may be so orthodox in many other ways that this is kind of slipping by or going over the heads of those hearing and seeing these men preach and teach.

Well, there's different examples we could pull. In legalistic terms, there have been some in the family theology department of things,

Bill Gothard and others who have mangled the doctrine of grace and have taught

Christians essentially that you earn grace and have given Christians a system of fear whereby their entire life is essentially constructed around a wrong vision of the fear of God where they fear the chastisement and punishment of God and what

I am trying to argue for in my book from Scripture is not a system where the born -again believer in the new covenant lives in fear of the wrath of God or the anger of God.

We know that Hebrews 12 does indeed teach us that the

Father disciplines every child of His, but even that discipline is presented in Hebrews 12 not as heavy -handed, not as raging, not as malevolent, but kind and gracious and restorative.

Now, that doesn't mean that fatherly discipline doesn't take some bark off the tree in different places.

If Christians stumble and fall into serious sin, there will be serious consequences.

I mean, you think about just one biblical example of that, 1 Corinthians 5, you've got church discipline coming down the pike and it is very significant indeed to be excommunicated from a church.

Well, actually, that can be a grace of God to us if we have wandered into terrible, unrepentant sin, we need serious consequences and so that itself is

God's kindness to us in a way, but we also need to be very clear that the Christian is never placed back under the wrath of God if they sin, even serious sin.

The true believer has been transferred out of the domain of darkness. Jesus has borne all the cost of the penalty of sin for us and we will never face that and so we don't loop in and out of, now

I'm a Christian because I had good devotions, tomorrow I said something unkind to my child, so I'm not a

Christian, the next day I served the church, so I'm back to being a Christian, and there frankly is a lot of informal theology like that out there in a legalistic form in Christian circles,

I think, Chris. And in fact, since you brought up the fairly well known fundamentalist whose name just flew out of my head, who was the one that you...

Bill Gothard? Yes, Bill Gothard. I interviewed Ginger Duggar Volo on her book

Becoming Free Indeed, my story of distangling faith from fear.

She was raised in a home that was dominated by the teachings of Bill Gothard that were very damaging to her and she explains that in detail not only in her book but in my interview with her, so if you want to hear that, if you type in the search engine of www .irontripandzioneradio

.com Volo, V as in victory, U -O -L -O you can hear that interview with Ginger Duggar Volo and Ginger, by the way, is spelt with a

J. We're going to go to our last commercial break. If you have questions that you'd like to ask and you'd like to get in line behind those that are already waiting to have their questions asked and answered, please send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com ChrisArnzen at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Please do not go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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that's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711

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I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line. We have Ramona in Bryant, Arkansas, and Ramona asks, isn't it a matter of priorities of which is a much more important concept when it comes to the atonement provided by Christ on Calvary?

Isn't it much more important to rightly understand what Jesus actually did on the cross than the number of people for whom he did it?

I think that's an excellent question. I've said the same thing to people who reject our belief in particular redemption and definite atonement.

Yeah, I think that's nice. I would just say, as we talked about a little bit earlier in the broadcast,

I think that the extent of the atonement is directly connected to and cannot be separated from the question about the nature of the atonement.

So, that's what I would drive people to in their discussion with folks who would want to get into a big debate over who

Jesus died for. We can have that conversation. What I want to do though first is talk about what the atonement accomplishes.

Does the atonement decisively and unrepealably pay for the sins of everyone

Jesus dies for or does it not? So, said in simpler form, does the atonement make salvation certain or does the atonement make salvation possible?

And I think there are a lot of people out there who, if they have it framed that way, maybe they are gun -shy about the

Calvinist or Reform position for various reasons. Maybe some of those reasons are bad. Maybe some of those reasons are good.

Maybe they have had somebody sort of try to bulldog the issue with them and it's left them with a bad taste in their mouth.

I would just point people to asking them, hey, were you saved by Jesus or were you not? And that then opens the conversation to go in a direction that I think can help guide people to see it's not a bad thing that Jesus decisively paid for our sin at Calvary.

It's the absolute best thing in the world. Does that mean that there are some people out there, many people, whose sins are not paid for?

Yes, it does, but you have that very same concept in a slightly different category of soteriology in the heading election, the category of election.

So there's just something that we all struggle at some point in our life to accept, and that is that God chooses some for himself and doesn't choose others, and he does so purely out of his own wisdom and desire and plan.

And so you can have that conversation either with regard to the extent of the atonement or with regard to election. What I want to encourage people to do is just submit to the

Word of God—I say that in love, not anger or stridency—and see that, yes,

God's choosing always blows our mind and pushes way past our finite categories, but we're just creatures.

We're just little bitty creatures, and we can trust a good God. Amen, and if you could summarize what you most want etched in the hearts of minds of our listeners today in about a minute.

What I most want folks to hear is that we have a

Savior who fights for us. We have a Savior who loves us. Our salvation is not hanging in the balance.

What pastors then should minister to people on a weekly basis is not uncertainty like, hey, you better get your act together and figure this out.

You better do your part of the bargain of sanctification. What I would encourage pastors to preach and Christians to hear is this.

God has provided all the resources we need to grow in godliness. God has acted in magnificent love to atone for our sin, but not just to bring us to the moment of saving faith at the date of our conversion.

The entirety of our life is swept along in a rushing river of God's love that flows from the cross to this minute and will never end, and so know that all your

Christian life is to be lived in the power of the cross, and that means we are not bound by sin, but we are loved by God, kept by God, and God will fight for us all the way into the final bell.

Amen. And if you would like to purchase this book, folks, The Warrior Savior, A Theology of the

Work of Christ, published by PNR Publishing, go to cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com. The last time I was in there, they actually had it in stock, so I am pretty confident you can get a hold of this book from them.

And, of course, don't forget about the website for Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, gbtseminary .org,

gbtseminary .org. Owen Strand, just as I knew you would, you proved to be an absolutely superb guest again.

I look forward to you frequently returning to Iron Trump and Zion Radio. I want you all to always remember, for the rest of your lives,