TPW #3 | Response to John Piper and His Clarification

Paul warns that evil men and imposters will grow worse and worse deceiving one another and being deceived. The reason Paul told Timothy that was because he needed to be ready to spend the balance of his life in uninterrupted warfare for the truth.

The most dangerous people alive today are always, always, always ordained ministers. They're the most dangerous people in the world, especially the ones that people think are Christians, who will sell you theological poison to the damnation of your soul.

Folks, I just want to warn you about something. Every heretic in the entire history of the church, without exception, has taught their heresy in the name of being faithful to Scripture. What happened when Jesus was nailed to the cross?

That was the day of wrath. That was the day of judgment. That is the day of final salvation. Brought back in time and applied to us once for all at the moment of our effectual calling when we repent and believe in our.

Unity to Christ.

John Piper’s Clarification and the Meaning of Salvation

Welcome to the Protestant Witness. I am your host, Pastor Patrick Hines, pastor of Bridwell Heights Presbyterian Church here in Kingsport, Tennessee. I am today going to play a response I made to John Piper's clarification video.

One thing that's very interesting about this video, I was sent this a while ago and was told that John Piper has attempted to clarify what he said in that sermon, that we're not saved by faith alone, how not to use a Reformation slogan.

That's actually available out there on YouTube.

And I thought, okay, well, this is good.

Maybe John Piper will clarify the confusion and we'll be clear that what gets us into heaven at the final judgment at the last day is Christ alone and his righteousness and his shed blood, which we receive by faith alone.

And unfortunately, sadly, what he does in this clarification video is he basically doubles down on the position and makes it even more clear. And so a number of people have told me that this was helpful to them.

So I'd like to have it put as a podcast. So with no more ado, I'm just gonna go ahead and and have that played now. Someone sent me a link to a video where John Piper has evidently clarified things from his sermon on what are we, will we finally be saved by faith alone, etc.

And I've not watched it yet, and I've got a ton of work to do today. And so I just wanted to, I'm just gonna listen to this on the fly and respond to it. I sincerely hope, I hope that he has clarified what he's saying and and that this will be a good response to the controversy that's been stirred up.

But before I listen to this, I do want to make this comment. I will tell, I will, I will say this from the bottom of my heart, sincerely, as a pastor myself. If I preached a sermon that caused an internet explosion of responses, where people were pointing out how vague, ambiguous, unclear, troubling, distressing, unbiblical, something that I said about the gospel was, I would really, really do a double-take on whether or not I should be a pastor.

I would really reflect on, is this something I should be doing? If I'm not clear about the most important doctrine of the Christian faith, how a sinner is justified before God, which is how they will enter heaven.

If people were, if there are people on all sides of the issue, what does he really mean? What's he really saying? What's he really getting at? I would probably quit. Because the mark of a pastor, the mark of a good teacher, is the clarity.

The clarity with which they speak. It's one of the reasons I always recommend to people, you should read old Princeton. Read the Hodges. Read Warfield. Those guys were not capable of writing unclear sentences.

They just couldn't. And that's why they're such great teachers. Again and again, as I've read and listened to John Piper over the years, it's one of the reasons I've never been a John Piper fan, because I don't understand what he's talking about most of the time.

When he hits these issues, you try to say, well, there's a certain spin you could put on this that would make it orthodox. But if you really take what he's saying at face value, it really doesn't sound orthodox.

Who knows what the guy's getting at? And that's the stuff that bothers me. But let's go ahead and listen to this. It's a 15 minute long video. Hopefully this, my response won't be overly long.

Justification, Salvation, and the Past-Present-Future Scheme

All right, Pastor John, today we address a controversy that you stirred up online back on September 25th of last year, 2017. Just as Protestants around the globe were beginning to celebrate the Reformation's 500th birthday, you spoiled the party with an article titled, Does God really save us by faith alone?

In which you answered, no, we are not saved by faith alone.

Let me guess where this is gonna go now, having listened to that. Saved and salvation are broader terms in Scripture that encompass other things. You can't just equate salvation with justification, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Let's see if that's where we go here.

Protestants everywhere dumbfounded and scratching their heads. In wishing more clarity here, a PI guest listener named Sam wrote us to ask this. Hello, Pastor John. I've read your article on justification, saying that we are justified by faith alone, but we are not ultimately saved by faith alone.

You argue that works must be present for final salvation or glorification to be completed. Two questions for you. Number one, can you explain this a little further on air? And number two, what then is the link between justification and glorification?

From what I see in Romans 8 30, glorification is secured by our justification. Good question. How would salvation and works fit between the link here in Paul's mind? Those are good questions.

Those aren't the questions I would have asked him though. What I would like to ask him is, what is it that God looks at? What is the grounds upon which a person is openly acknowledged and acquitted and pronounced righteous on the day of judgment when Jesus returns to the earth?

What is the grounds of a sinner's entrance into heaven? That's my question. Hopefully, maybe he'll get to it. I don't know. Well, thank you, Sam.

I love to talk about this issue because it is endlessly perplexing for people and every effort we can make to clarify it the better. So let's start with some clarifications. The biblical term salvation is used to cover past, present, and future.

Dimensions of God's work. I'll tell you, these folks are predictable of nothing else. I mean, I could give his response for him. I know exactly how he's gonna answer this. Did I just call that or what?

Huh?

To bring us into everlasting perfection and joy. Ephesians 2 .8. Having been saved. 1st Corinthians 1 .18.

We are being saved. That is terrible. That is horrifically bad exegesis. That is exactly how the Roman Catholic Church... That's exactly what they do. Well, in Romans 3 .24, a present participle is used.

We're being justified freely by his grace. Folks, syntactically, grammatically, that's called a gnomic truth, a general truth. That does not mean that we are experiencing the process of salvation. This is exactly how the Roman Catholic religion, the Eastern Orthodox religion, this is how they argue that salvation is this big process.

And yet Paul says that in Ephesians 2 .8 -10,. For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it's the gift of God, not by works, lest anyone should boast. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works that he foreordained that we should walk in them.

Okay, we are saved, saved, not by works. Now Paul would not be okay with someone saying, well, yeah, you're saved, and you're being saved, too, and that includes works, and then you will be saved, and that includes works.

That is not biblical, folks. Let's see where else he goes here.

Romans 13 .11, salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

Again, total misuse of the passage. Complete misuse of the passage. Salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. That's right, because the day of judgment, the day that Jesus is coming back, is every moment, it's getting closer.

That's what that's talking about. It is not saying that salvation is a process of transformation or something like that. I can't believe his misuse of Scripture like this. So past,.

Present process, future completion. This is why we we have to be so careful.

It's why we have to be so careful. Yes, indeed. So you can't say, how confusing is that? How confusing is this? If someone comes to me, Pastor, I am convicted of my sin. I know that I'm under the wrath of God.

What must I do to be saved? How can I be saved? I would say repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Now, does that mean, well, there's this process that you have to go through and then you will be after that process is over.

That is not the case. Justification before God is, it is, the eschatological verdict brought back in time applied to the believer. When the present participles are used, being saved or being justified, those are the stating of general truths.

Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by faith in His blood to demonstrate His righteousness and so on and so forth. Being justified freely by His grace or you are being saved.

That does not mean, that does not mean that being made right with God is a process. And again, you know where I've heard these arguments before?

In.

Robert St. Genesis' book, Not by Faith Alone. And from every Catholic apologist I've ever heard debate this issue. And from the Eastern Orthodox apologists I've been discussing this with recently. It's the same argument.

About using the term justification interchangeably with salvation.

Why not? Paul does. Ephesians 2, 8 and 9. He does not use the term justify. He doesn't say having, by grace you have been justified through faith and that not of yourselves. He says by grace you have been saved through faith.

And that is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast. Saved, not of works. He uses them interchangeably at times. Now I grant, salvation in general does encompass other things, but you have to exegete each passage's terms in its own context.

You can't just say, well every time the word saved is being used, it's stating the general truth of all that God does. It depends on the context. It depends on the context in which it's being used. Causes so much confusion.

Yeah.

Justification, as we ordinarily use the term, as Paul ordinarily uses the term, refers not to a process. Thank you. But salvation sometimes does refer to a process. Justification is the point, point, point, like in geometry, where the Holy Spirit opens our blind eyes to see Christ for who He really is, unites us to Christ by faith alone, so that in that instant, at that point, we pass from being under condemnation into God's being 100 for us.

No virtue, no works.

I don't like that phrase. From being condemned to God being 100 for you. No. You go from being condemned to being forensically, legally, judicially, on the final judgment declared righteous once forever.

Jesus Christ bore the condemnation of the Father in the stead and place of His people so that no charges will ever be brought against Him. That's why Paul asks that question rhetorically in Romans 8 33.

Who will bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is He who condemns? And then you get that that incredible rhapsody of praise at the end of Romans chapter 8. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus.

God, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all. How shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? It's not, well, you're in a position now where God's 100 for you.

That is not biblical terminology. That is not a helpful way of looking at this. And again, that sounds an awful bit, an awful lot like Rome's state of grace. God's 100 for you. He's 100 for you. Let's get rid of that.

That is, that's not a helpful phrase. That's not biblical. It's not helpful. Justification is God's bringing back the eschatological verdict on the day of judgment and applying it now on in virtue of the cross work of Christ and His righteousness that is imputed to our account by faith alone.

We are pronounced righteous once for all eternity. And that's the end of it. A person who's justified is going to heaven. Romans 8 28 through 29 30 and 31. Those whom He foreknew, He predestined. And whom He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Whom He predestined, these He also called. Whom He called, these He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.

In us, brought about this new standing with God. Justification is instantaneous and unchanging on the basis of the blood and righteousness of Christ alone. We are counted instantaneously as righteous and God is 100 for us from then on.

We're connected with this new experience of acceptance with God by being one with Christ through faith alone and that happens in an instant. Now the question rises, how do our good deeds then fit with justification and final salvation?

Again, again, how do our good deeds fit with justification and final salvation? Final salvation is not a biblical category. The way he uses it, speaks about it, preaches about it, writes about it, is unbiblical and he has yet to produce anything from the Word of God that would lead anyone to believe that justification is somehow different from final salvation.

The whole point is God is holy, righteous, and just. Man is obligated to obey God. He doesn't. Man is obligated not to disobey God and we disobey Him all the time. And so there is a day of judgment and that judgment against sin fell on Christ and the preceptive obedience, what Romans 8, 1 through 4 speaks of, is the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

The law can't justify us, Christ fulfills it for us. Romans chapter 4 uses the Greek term logizimae, impute, or reckon, or account, 11 times. Abraham is accounted righteous. Righteousness is imputed to us, Romans 4, 6, apart from works and our sins are not imputed to us, Romans 4, 8.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Okay, that's what justification is. How do our good works fit into our justification? They don't because it's said over and over. Think about it.

Romans 3, 20, by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in the sight. Romans 3, 28, therefore by the observance of law, we are justified by faith apart from observing the law. Okay, righteousness is imputed to us apart from works, Romans 4, 6.

Galatians 2, 16, we are not justified by works of law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of law, not by works, not by deeds of righteousness, over and over and over and over and over again. The New Testament says this.

So how do our works figure into our justification? They don't. How do works figure into our final salvation? They don't.

The answer is, and it's the answer of the entire mainstream of the Reformed tradition, and really not just Calvinists would talk this way. Many others would as well. Works play no role whatsoever in justification, but are the necessary fruit of justifying faith, which.

Confirm, this fruit confirms our faith and our... Okay, he was doing all right there as long as he said a necessary fruit. I don't like this use of, they confirm. Okay, just listen closely to this. ...union with Christ at the last judgment.

So God can make a public pronouncement with a view to these works... No, nope.

Piper, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. If you're looking at the works done by the sinner as the thing upon which God renders the verdict that our faith was real or something, the way you're stating this is so confusing and it's so vague and ambiguous.

It doesn't make any sense. The fact is, justification, when we are pronounced righteous, when we're united to Christ by faith alone, that is the final judgment. That's what Piper's missing here. He really does think that the final salvation, final judgment is entirely distinct from justification, but the whole point is, justification is that legal declaration.

It is the final verdict being applied to us the moment we believe in our united Christ.

That is how we get to heaven.

...affirming the faith which alone unites us to Christ, who is alone the foundation of our acceptance as perfect in God's sight. So here's what the Westminster Confession says from 350 years ago. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ in his righteousness,.

Is the alone instrument of justification.

Only the sole instrument of justification.

Distinguishing instrument from basis. But it is not alone. That's very true. The alone.

Instrument or means of justification. Yet, is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied, important word, accompanied by all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.

Amen. End of quote. Exactly right. Now that is an allusion to Galatians 5 .6. That's right. Paul says, in Christ Jesus neither circumcision or uncircumcision counts for anything,.

But faith working through love. Working through.

Love.

Unfortunately, that's not what Piper's been saying. Let's see how he, let's see if he actually believes it.

Faith, Works, and the Final Judgment

So the faith that justifies is the sort of faith that bears the fruit of good works. Love. James 2 .17.

Faith, if it has no works, is dead. Yeah. Being. What does this have to do with final salvation? Nothing. What does this have to do with our final salvation? Nothing. Nothing.

By itself. Dead faith doesn't justify anybody. Therefore, faith without works is not the kind of faith that justifies anybody. And these works are, and here it starts to get difficult for people, but let me see if I can help.

These works are necessary. The Hebrew says, strive for the peace.

Strive. Key word. Strive for the peace. You need to be real clear. Necessary for what? Necessary in what way? As the grounds? You said in an article, in that article that's posted on Desiring God's website, we are saved through those works.

That's the problem.

With peace with everyone and strive for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Yeah, that's right.

But does that mean that on the grounds of that holiness we are finally accepted or saved? Be clear now. Be clear. You always talk about we've got to be so clear here. Yeah, please be clear. Hebrews 12 .14.

So we won't see the Lord Jesus. That is, we won't be finally saved. No.

Nope. Nope. Nope. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not by works, lest anyone should boast. We won't see the Lord Jesus. In other words, we are saved. No, that's not what Hebrews 12 is talking about.

Okay, let's let's look at the passage, and this is a massive error. A massive error. Let's look it up here. Hebrews 12 .14. Pursue peace with all people and holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

I have a question. Is there anything there about being saved by that holiness? Is there anything there about being justified by that holiness, saved by that holiness? That that being the way of our final salvation or the grounds of our final salvation?

Nothing. Nothing. The passage, pursue peace with all people and holiness without which no one will see the Lord. What does that have to do with the way or the means by which we are finally saved? Nothing.

Absolutely nothing. He is completely twisting that passage. He's been quoting it like a mantra in his sermons and everything else. Holiness, no holiness, no heaven. No holiness, no heaven. That's actually a true statement.

But the way he's putting it, we are saved. I mean, listen to that again. Listen to the way he nuances it. Listen to it closely.

Key words. Strive for the peace with everyone and strive for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Hebrews 12 .14. So we won't see the Lord Jesus. That is, we won't be finally saved.

That's not what it says.

That is subtlety of speech. That is a twisting of that passage. It does not say you will be finally saved by your pursuit of holiness. That is not what the passage says. That is not biblical. That is not what the Bible teaches.

Without this striven for holiness.

And what is that? Or why? I mean, folks, he is teaching. How are we saved?

Well, initially by faith alone, and then you're finally saved by striving for holiness. That is upon that basis you are saved. That is what he's teaching. You're saved by striving for holiness. You're saved by the pursuit of holiness.

Because the Apostle John says, 1 John 2 .4, 3 .14, other places, the one who says, I have come to know God and does not keep his commandments is a liar.

Correct. And what does that have to do with how we're saved? Nothing. There is a total category confusion here. Okay, 1 John 2. Again, a text I have preached on. A person who says, I know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar.

That is absolutely positively true. And it's something we need to preach with every bit of force in us. But if we start saying, that's how you're finally saved, we are purveyors of a false gospel. You know, you got to like the guy's clarity.

He's awfully clear.

Listen. And the truth is not in him. Or says later, 3 .14.

What's that have to do with you're finally saved through keeping his commandments? Is that what that passage says? It is not. It is not.

We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brethren. That's how we know it's confirmed.

And what does that have to do with final salvation? What does that have to do with being getting into heaven? Nothing. How many ways does the apostle Paul reject the idea that we're saved in any degree at all by our works?

That they are somehow what confirms whether or not we're going to get into heaven or that through that process of transformation, we get into heaven? Nowhere. Nothing.

He who does not love abides in death. In other words, you haven't been born again.

That's completely, perfectly, absolutely, totally true. And needs to be preached with every bit of force in us. What does that have to do? What does that have to do with being finally saved by faith alone?

What does that have to do with the topic before us? Nothing.

United to Christ. You don't have saving faith because it's not confirmed by love. So obedience and love are the necessary confirmations that we are...

No, they're necessary fruits. They necessarily accompany confirmations. Confirmations. Well, you know, Piper has said that the love that accompanies true faith, the other saving graces, we are saved through those works.

He says that. That is a direct quote from his article on this. And he's just plain wrong about that.

Born again, truly united to Christ by faith alone. Or here's the way Paul says it in 2 Thessalonians 2 to 13.

God chose you for salvation through sanctification of the spirit and faith in the truth.

To be saved through sanctification by the spirit and belief in...

That is a misinterpretation of the passage. Listen closely to 2 Thessalonians 2. But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the spirit and belief in the truth.

He's not saying that you're saved through sanctification, or that that's the grounds of your salvation. That is a total misinterpretation of the passage. What is it saying? We were set apart by the spirit and belief in the truth.

That's all that that's saying. That's not saying that you're saved by works. And yet that's how he's interpreting it. You're saved through sanctification. Uh, no, we're not saved through sanctification.

Okay.

God chose us from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the spirit. We're set apart by the spirit. Not the process of becoming more conformed to the image of Christ.

You know why?

I know that that's not what that's saying. Because if you interpret it that way, you just contradicted everything that Paul has ever taught on the subject. We are set apart by the spirit and are granted faith in the truth.

Now, what is this passage talking about? What is this passage about?

Okay.

It's about the coming of the lawless one. It's about this discourse leading up to this. Is this a passage that's really dealing with the issues of soteriology?

No.

Is it really addressing the means by which we're made right with God or going into detail or depth about sanctification? No, it is not. So why would you go here? Why would you go here to try to demonstrate how a person's saved and gets to heaven?

Why would you go here and try to camp out on things like this? Folks, I've seen this method used by every kind of false teacher and heretic that's ever lived. Ever. That I've ever studied. They take a little snippet out of here, a little snippet out of there, a little phrase out of here, a little phrase out of there, string it all together and see?

You just have to have your doctrine. It's just got to be broad and biblical and take into account everything. And now what they're doing is they're misinterpreting individual passages and setting them really at odds with one another.

This passage is not saying you're saved by sanctification.

Okay.

We're saved by grace through faith, not by works. The process of sanctification is not how a person is saved. Okay, let's press on.

The truth. So we are not justified through sanctification. Let me say it again. We are not justified through sanctification, but we are finally saved through sanctification. That is...

Okay, folks. For Piper to make his point, he needs to do some exegesis of scripture to show us that final salvation is somehow different from justification. The Reformers, all of them, and the entire Reform tradition, the biblical theology, is that justification is the last judgment applied to us when we believe.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why?

Because we've been justified. Justified is a forensic legal term. Who is God? God is the judge. What's going to happen when Jesus returns? The final judgment. Those who are united to Christ are justified on the grounds, solely, completely, and only, of the crosswork of Christ for their forgiveness and his righteousness as the alone basis of their being pronounced righteous in the sight of God.

That is it. Justification is final salvation. This is thoroughly...

This is...

I mean, he really is. He really is teaching that salvation, you are saved by the process of sanctification. This is Roman Catholic doctrine, folks. I don't know why Piper even pretends to be Reformed.

Through a real change in our hearts and minds and lives without which we will not see the Lord.

But John, that doesn't mean that upon the basis of that change, that's how we see the Lord. It's not saying that you are saved and brought into... finally saved on the grounds of your transformation.

That you have not shown that,.

Not even remotely from any of the passages that you've cited.

Not even close.

Now, people hear this. If they haven't been well taught on these things, here's what people do. They hear this. They say, whoa, necessary? These things are necessary for final salvation? And they draw two inferences from that statement.

And both of them are false. Number one, therefore, they say, final salvation is dependent on us, decisively on us.

And John, you've made that crystal clear. Let's see how he tries to get out of it.

And here's the next false inference. Therefore, it's uncertain.

I could fail.

I could lose my salvation. I could be justified and then not be justified. The child of God might lose his justification. Now, both those inferences are dead wrong. Both logically wrong and biblically wrong.

The second one is wrong because the Bible says,.

He who began a good work in Philippians 1 .6,.

You will complete it at the day of Christ. You won't lose it. And Romans 8 .30 says, those whom he predestined, he also called. And those whom he called, he also justified. And those whom he justified, he also glorified.

No dropouts. No dropouts at any one of those links in the chain. No dropouts between justification and glorification. I'll say it again. Those whom he justified in the twinkling of an eye, by faith alone, in union with Christ, once and for all, will be, all of them, no exceptions, will be glorified.

The reason no one will lose his justification is because God is the decisive worker. We weren't, but we're not the decisive worker. Philippians 2 .12.

That is what the Council of Trent taught too, just FYI.

Work out your own salvation by all means. Strive for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

But it's not upon the grounds of our holiness. See again, Dr. Piper here has made this clear. We are finally saved through our good works. I mean, those are his own words. He's trying to backpedal on it now.

Let's see if, I mean, he really, he still hasn't answered the first objection that he gave there. Let's see if he tries to.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Why?

Because it is God who is at work within you, both to will and to do for his good pleasure. What does that have to do with justification? Nothing. What does that have to do with final salvation? Absolutely nothing.

And notice again, Piper has not shown us from Scripture that what he's saying is true. The final salvation is through good works or your faith is confirmed by your good works at final salvation. He has not shown from the Bible that final salvation is somehow different from justification.

He hasn't.

God's sovereign keeping and working is the basis of our pursuit of holiness. The basis of it, the basis of it, the ground of it. I start with the fact that I am kept. I start with the fact that I'm justified.

I start with the fact that God is 100 for me. And on the basis of that, I pursue the killing of my sin. Here's what Paul says in Philippians 3, 12. I love this. He says, not that I am already perfect.

But I press on.

But I press on to make it my own because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

What does that have to do with this idea of final salvation? Nothing. Does Paul bring up such a thing that through the good works he's done in his, um, I press on and pressing on and to lay hold of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus, that glorious passage that Piper is misinterpreting here.