Cultish: Shincheonji Interview w/ Former Leaders

The Purpose of the Interview and the Danger of Shincheonji

Hey, what's up, everyone? This is Jeremiah, one of the co-hosts here at Cultist. This is a little bit of an interim episode slash crossover. Not too long ago, we did a episode series on Shin Chan-ji, very eye-opening.

A lot of you really gave us a lot of positive feedback. I'm actually back with our two previous guests. I've got Steve and Chris. Good to have you both back. Good to see you,.

Nashmika. Good to see you guys. Thank you for this opportunity. Awesome, man. So we,.

Very super excited. Also, we're here with Jordan. Nate, what's the name of your YouTube channel again? Great Light Studios. Great Light Studios. A lot of great content on there. So this is a collab. We both are very self-aware.

This is a very dangerous cult that is infiltrating churches. This is cross-denominationally, whether it's Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, you name it. They're infiltrating churches using a mass amount of deception.

This is a very exciting interview. Tell us just a little about this interview. Why is it so important? And you want to get the word.

Out there. Well, we've been speaking out against Shin Chan-ji on both of your channels. And this is exciting because we launched a trailer a few days ago, kind of like a little preview of this episode.

So before we do anything, why don't we just play right now the trailer? We had the face of the guest we have on today blurred out. So let's just show that trailer as we originally dropped it. It's your friend today.

Well, I haven't seen you for a while. So I've got a very special surprise for you all today. You recognize this guy? So that was the trailer of our special guest. Now we can actually show the trailer.

And this time we're going to unblur it to you for the first time and show you who we're interviewing today on this episode. It's your friend today. Well, I haven't seen you for a while. So I've got a very special surprise for you all today.

You recognize this guy? Okay, so if anybody there knows much about Shin Chan-ji, the person there is the infamous Mr. Shin who is referred to in Shin Chan-ji among the members as Snake Shin. Mr. Shin is now a Christian pastor.

So he's part of Babylon, you know, supposedly the Shin Chan-ji. But he was the number two person in the Shin Chan-ji cult for years. He was the director of education. And Chris, you are a former member of Shin Chan-ji.

You used to hear about this Snake Shin guy, right? While you were a member of Shin Chan-ji.

Oh, absolutely. He was, like you already mentioned, he is referred to as Snake Shin. He is the ultimate betrayer or one of them. And he is an example of someone who is filled with seven evil spirits, who is now actively speaking out against Shin Chan-ji.

So he's basically public enemy number one. And we were very blessed to be able to interview Mr. Shin for a long time, asking a lot of the hard questions about the history, their origins, a lot of the changes made in Shin Chan-ji while he was visiting North America.

So this was an incredible God thing, a great opportunity, a real first. And what's really exciting about this is that we're going to be able to present a lot of hard, hard hitting, first time information ever in the English language from someone who is an insider high up in the movement who knew Mr. Lee Man-hee, the chairman of Shin Chan-ji really, really well.

And we're able to actually get this information out so you can reach your friends and family and anyone in Shin Chan-ji with this hard hitting evidence of who they really are and what they've been about.

And just in terms of.

Comparison, this would be the equivalent if John Travolta defected from Scientology and now he's doing a tell-all, that that's the level of rabbit hole. Maybe even higher. Maybe like a first.

Counselor of the Mormon church, like a number two guy. So he was actually, Mr. Shin is actually mentioned in the book of Revelation according to Shin Chan-ji. So he's actually, this is a really big deal that we're able to get this out.

And he's a gracious man. I know they call him snake and he's, you know, he's the ultimate betrayer, but he's a wonderful Christian man who's telling his story. He has a concern for the souls of people in Shin Chan-ji.

And it's just a great blessing to see that he has come to the truth and now has a relationship with the real Jesus Christ.

Why This Interview Matters for People Harmed by False Doctrine

Awesome. And before we jump into the episode, Jordan, do you have any thoughts on the importance of this interview? What are your thoughts on this interview and the importance of it?

Yeah, I think, you know, more and more of my perspective, the more members I talk to on my channel, former members, and hear the stories, you know, the specific doctrinal propositions that these groups adhere to and that they teach are obviously problematic.

But, you know, the thing that concerns me isn't necessarily, you know, that they have every doctrinal, you know, I dotted and T crossed, but it's what the doctrines do in terms of how they impact people.

The doctrines are used. It's not just that they believe wrong things, that they have wrong sets of, you know, doctrinal propositions in their minds. It's that they actually then utilize these doctrines to control, to manipulate, and to, I would say, it would be completely accurate to say abuse these members to, you know, manipulate them into giving inordinate amounts of their time, their devotion, their money to abandoned family, to abandoned careers.

And so, you know, the doctrines are problematic, but what really concerns me is what the doctrines do and how they impact people. And that, I think, is, you know, when you think about Jesus, he had, you know, a few things here and there to say about the beliefs, if you will, of the Pharisees, but what he really was concerned with, what he really got angry about was how the Pharisees' mindset and how they thought impacted other people and their, you know, control and, oh, sorry.

It's probably Shin Chan Ji trying to mess me up there. Probably. Let's see, where can I start there? Convulsing control. Yeah, so Jesus' main concern was just the harm that wrong beliefs cause people.

And so, you know, for me, that's really the importance of this is that this sort of information can go out, people can hear it, people that might be on the verge of joining groups like Shin Chan Ji, people who might be smack dab in the middle of devotion to it, and they can listen to this, and it can confirm to them, and they can say, hey, wait a minute, there is something not quite right here, and maybe I should give this a second thought.

So I think this, especially coming up from as high up as of a position as Shin was, is just hugely significant, and I'm very confident that many people will be impacted by it in a positive way. And then one more thing I wanted to add to,.

Sorry for interrupting, this guy was a part of the group since the 1980s. He's seen and heard a lot of things. This is why it's so important, because a lot of the failed prophecies, updated doctrines, it's really hard for a non-speaking Korean to get access to this information.

This is why it's very.

Important for us to get the word out. Right, and I appreciate what you said just now, Jordan,.

Because you know, Jeremiah often repeats on his show how theology matters, and bad theology hurts people. So we're standing here as a united front today, different people, different perspectives somewhat, and within the Christian church, but we all can agree that Shin Chan Ji is a very dangerous group.

We have a Mr. Yang, he's another pastor who's gonna be translating for Mr. Shin on this interview. Mr. Yang leads a Korean counter-cult ministry where they deal with the World Mission Society, Church of God, JMS, Shin Chan Ji, and they're called Bible Vaccine Center.

So a great, great ministry for the Korean brothers over there. And with that, let's take it away as we introduce Mr. Shin and Mr. Yang for what we think is a very powerful interview, and thank you for watching.

No, I'm really excited for the interview too, and I just want to say one last thing is that all of us, we come from different backgrounds, we're in different denominations, we might have some variance on different secondary issues, but this is another great example where we want to sort of emulate what the late Dr. Walter Martin did, put the secondary stuff aside, let's keep the main thing the main thing, where we come together, we collaborate, put our eggs in one basket, and we work together to fight against the kingdom of the cults.

So I'm very, very excited for this.

Interview. Hope you all enjoy, everyone. What's up, everybody? If you are blessed by this content and you want to support the gospel's proclamation to the cults while equipping the church to combat deception, then come join us and become a Cultish All Access member.

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Come, be one of us. Head over to thecultishshow .com or follow the link in the show notes and click the join button. Directly support the work of this ministry as the mission is completely funded by you, our listener.

The Bible Vaccine Center and Mr. Shin's Background in Shincheonji

Hi, everyone. It's so nice to see you, all of you. My name is Hyungjoo Yang, and I am the director of Bible Vaccine Center. As you may have heard of it, you may know COVID -19 vaccine. Like this, the Bible vaccine means that we need the Bible vaccine so that we might be able to protect ourselves from false doctrine of Shincheonji or something like that, other organizations.

So this time, it's my pleasure to have Mr. Shin Hyunwoo. Mr. Shin is known as a Shin Snake in Shincheonji. So it's going to be a really exciting time for all of you to have questions and answers with him.

So let me introduce Mr. Shin. It's so nice to see all of you. My name is Shin Hyunwoo, Pastor Shin. Do you have any questions, some basic questions for him?

Yes, we are interviewing Mr. Shin now. What years were you in Shincheonji?

I was in in 1986 and get out of Shincheonji in 2006.

What positions do you have inside of Shincheonji?

In the beginning, I studied as an education instructor, center instructor. He was in charge of Seoul Church in Shincheonji. Then he promoted to the whole head education.

Director of Shincheonji. Internationally or just in Korea?

Just in Korea. In those times, there was no international mission around that time. It was a very small group around that time. One of the seven educators. He was a senior pastor of Seoul Church, Seoul Shincheonji Church.

Shincheonji's Revelation 4 and 5 Hierarchy

So in Shincheonji's vision in Revelation chapter four, where he saw the 24 elders and the breakdown, was he one of the persons in that vision as far as the different departments in Revelation chapter four?

Revelation chapter four? Yes. Could you say it again? Well, he had a supposedly John saw the vision in Revelation chapter four with the 24 elders and the four beasts and the different people representing the different departments within Shincheonji.

Was Mr. Shin one of those departments in that vision?

Ah, yes.

His position according to Revelation chapter four is in the Revelation chapter four, there's a throne and in front of throne, there are seven torches, right? And he was the spirit of the seven torches.

So when he received his position, there's some sort of certificate to give him as a seven torches spirit. How can I say in English? We give some sort of certificate. You are promoted as a something. He's promoted as a pastor or certificate of position.

Okay. Will that be okay? Yeah. So he received from Lee Man-hee a certificate of promotion, certificate of his position as a seven torches spirit, the spirit of seven torches.

He's one of the seven educators.

And also it is described as seven eyes of the lamb in chapter five. And also it means he's the head educator of the whole Shincheonji education department.

So he was actually written into prophecy in the book of Revelation.

Yes.

Yes.

So in Revelation, there are characters who are sitting on the thrones. That's Mr. Lee Man-hee and also seven educators and also 12 tribal leaders and 24 elders. Those are all are supposed to sit in the throne and he was one of them.

Very good.

But for now, the educators, seven torches spirit, they are like names. They don't have actual authority or any position or any real power to organize or educate.

People.

But when he was in Shincheonji, he was just below Lee Man-hee. At that time, the whole organization was at the top. There's Lee Man-hee. And then below Lee Man-hee, there's an educator, education head, then seven educators, then 12 tribal leaders and 24 elders.

So he was just below. So he was just below Lee Man-hee.

Very good.

How. Well, so would he be like number two or number three in the church if you wanted to talk about rank?

Uh,.

There's a, yeah, there's a chairman. There's a chairman Lee Man-hee at the top. Mr. Lee is on the throne of God and Jesus together. And below Mr. Lee, there's seven educators. And then below seven educators, there's 12 tribal leaders.

So as a rank position, rank perspective, he was just below Mr. Lee. So he was ranked number two.

Corruption, Control, and Claims of Immortality

How well did he know Mr. Lee? How much time did he spend with him? Did he go to meals a lot with him? Did he go to his house?

How long did he know him and how well did he know him? How often did he go to his house? How often did he eat? How much time did he spend with him? Uh, he can't remember how many times he had meal with Mr. Lee Man-hee because his position as a seven tortured spirit means that he became the eyes and ears of Mr. Lee.

So he listened everything from Shincheonji and report him. And he'll listen. He got order from Mr. Lee and talk to the people. So he actually was ears and eyes of Mr. Lee. And, uh, seven spirit should be always be with Mr. Lee.

So, uh, for the last 20 years, while he was in Shincheonji for 20 years, he was all the time with Mr. Lee. So how many times does he have meal with Mr. Lee? Doesn't make sense.

And you can't even remember. You can't count that high.

He can't count at all. All the times, always.

He was directly taught by the new John.

Yes, I was.

Wow. Okay.

While he was close to Mr. Lee, did he ever see any behavior that made him have questions, whether financial or relationship with women that made him or any other thing of scandalous nature that made him question Mr. Lee's character?

While he was there, did Mr. Lee have any doubts about Mr. Lee's relationship with his ex-wife because of financial corruption, women's issues, or any other things that he might have seen?

I saw and heard that, but I didn't have any fundamental discussion with Mr. Lee.

You saw that many times, right?

That's right.

He watched financial problems and also women problems quite a times. But even though we watched all those kinds of things, but he never had any doubt about him as a Paracletus.

So he got too close to some of the female members in the church?

Yes.

He watched those kinds of things a lot of times. But in those times, he was really indoctrinated. And even though he watched it and heard about the rumors around him, that doesn't make him any problems at all.

What's the point? The point is that he is the new John and the new Messiah at this time. So because he was so much indoctrinated with Shincheonji doctrine, so those kinds of rumors doesn't seem to make any trouble with him.

And many people, when they heard of those kinds of rumors, they wouldn't believe it at all. And for those top leaders who actually knows about those problems, for them, it doesn't make any big problem for them to leave out Shincheonji because they were so brainwashed with Shincheonji doctrine.

How about did Mr. Shin ever see like outbursts of anger and temper or revenge and retaliation against members who were not doing what he wanted them to do where he lost his temper very badly like he'd have fits of rage?

Never ever.

He was always very calm.

And actually in front of the Shincheonji congregation, he does not really show his temper often.

I'm asking more privately though.

He's a lot of times, his temper, but nobody would retaliate to him because he's a divine being in this world. Never ever. It's like North Korean leader, Mr. Kim Jong-un, whoever dare to retaliate to him or give him anger to him, it's impossible in North Korea like that.

The same as true in Shincheonji.

Did he witness, did he ever portray himself as an actual savior at that time for mankind?

He never heard of Mr. Lee's commands saying that I am the winner and I am immortal and I am the savior like that. He never directly talk to himself, talk to himself or talk himself to the people that he is the divine being or immortal.

He never heard of it. Mr. Lee makes people believe that he is immortal or winner only through the doctrine, the Bible study. So in that part, the education instructors in Shincheonji, they teach people and based upon this Bible, there's a summon who is immortal, who is winner.

The one who overcomes.

Yeah, yeah. And he has come here. Who will be that person so that people just follow the Bible and doctrine. And Shincheonji makes people reach to the conclusion that that person is Mr. Lee. So Mr. Lee never mentioned directly himself that I am immortal.

But he, so when did it start being taught in the church? Because a lot of members today will definitely say he's immortal. He left in 2006. Was this started to talk after he left or has he never heard it in there?

Talk what?

About him being immortal, not dying. Because after 2006, maybe before he left.

The Shincheonji members who believe that Mr. Lee is immortal is from the beginning phase of Shincheonji. Everybody believes that he's immortal. But these days, through education instructors, there are some comments gradually came out that Mr. Lee could die recently.

So even though Mr. Lee doesn't say that he's immortal or he's going to die, but people gradually catch the hinge that Mr. Lee could die, but probably he is immortal. Mixed doctrine. When I look back, the reason why he doesn't tell directly that he's not going to die, he watched a lot of times the former self-proclaimed messiah had legal responsibility for claiming himself that he is immortal.

He is pretty sure that the reason Mr. Lee doesn't say that he's immortal is because he wants to avoid any legal responsibility for his claiming that he's immortal. And if someone sue him for his being immortal, then he might be able to say that, oh, I have never mentioned by myself at all, so that he might avoid his claiming that he's immortal.

The one example is that when he came out Shincheonji in 2006, he challenged Mr. Lee that his books and writings had a lot of flaws, and he claimed that you talk like this, you claim like this, but after reporting his argument to Mr. Lee, Mr. Lee claimed that I've never mentioned like this.

I've never written like that. It's all Mr. Shin's fault. I write correctly, but he distorted it. That's his way of working. And one example is that, including your question, is that Mr. Lee's claiming that his blood and his flesh, only eating his blood and flesh, people can live.

According to Mr. Lee's book, he claimed that only by eating Mr. Lee's flesh and blood, people can be saved in his book. He came out of Shincheonji in 2006 and attacked about that to Mr. Lee. Then Mr. Lee responded that it's not my claiming, and it's not my writing.

It's Mr. Shin's fault.

He was a scapegoat.

So all the Shincheonji members knew that, except that, oh, it's Mr. Shin's fault, and still they know that it was Mr. Shin's fault.

And that's when they started calling him a snake.

Yes, since then, he was called a snake. And then he quite much convinced that he's a frog.

I think the proper name for brother Shin should be scapegoat Shin instead of snake Shin.

So through that, we can see the humanity of Lee Man-hee's teaching. He's very shameless and has no conscience.

He avoids taking responsibility for what he says to others,.

And that's the problem.

I think that's a great example of humanity.

When you see Mr. Shin flip the page. Through all those events, he realized that Mr. Lee's conscience, he's quite sure that he has no conscience at all, and he's a liar, and he's not a normal person, normal human being.

Right.

I want to go back to what you just said. You said in the book where they talk about eating his flesh and blood. In English, we only have three or four books by Shincheonji translated. Which was this one of the books that we had in English about the flesh and blood?

The Revelation Fulfillment Book? Or which book was that talking?

In Shincheonji, they published a book since 1985. And around 20 books are published so far. Shincheonji gave order to abolish all the books that they published. Those books were all before Mr. Shin came out of Shincheonji.

And after he came out of Shincheonji, they officially recognized the books that they published after he has, yeah.

But which book was it specifically talking about the flesh and blood?

The reality of revelation.

We don't have that in English.

Those books were published in 1988. The similar fulfillment books of books about revelation. Also published in 1997. All those different books on revelation are all commonly mentioned about Lee Man-hee's blood and flesh.

Until he came out of Shincheonji, eating Lee Man-hee's flesh and blood is the only way to salvation. It's the normal doctrine. Normal doctrine in Shincheonji.

And that's understood spiritually, right? Because everything is interpreted pretty much spiritually in Shincheonji. So eating, it was a spiritual eating, a spiritual drinking.

In other words, following the teachings of Lee Man-hee, right? Yeah, that's true. In Jesus' time, only Jesus' words, Jesus' flesh and blood, through Jesus' flesh and blood, we can be saved. But this time, the time of realization of revelation, only through winners, Mr. Lee's blood and flesh, which is his teaching, the people can be saved.

That's the normal doctrine in Shincheonji.

So here's a good question. So as the director of education for Shincheonji, was he directly responsible and over the publication of those 20 Shincheonji books that were coming out in Korean by Mr. Lee?

Yes, first of all, on the back cover of the book, the author is Lee Man-hee, and the author has written Lee Man-hee. You cannot deny he's all responsible for his writings. Second of all, in Shincheonji, nobody can edit or add or delete his writings because he's a parakletos.

That his writing is revelation from Jesus. So you cannot edit at all. Nobody can edit at all, delete at all, add at all. So it should be conserved as he was written. That's the truth. So even the head director, education director like Mr. Shin cannot edit his writing at all.

Plus, in the preface of his book, every his book is saying that all my writing is not given from people or from the seminary. It's only through revelation from Jesus. He himself claimed publicly through his preface of his book.

It's what he saw and heard, all the events of revelation. I've seen the names, the faces. I've seen everything.

And there's also important testament proof. As Mr. Lee claims, if Mr. Shin edited Mr. Lee's writings, He cannot understand why he appointed him as head director for 20 years. Why he published all the books for 20 years?

If he edited or deleted, he should be a betrayer.

Right. But here's a good question. Was just like the 12 tribe leaders were chosen by God, Jesus and the angels, was he personally chosen by God, Jesus and the angels to have his position?

In his personal experience, it's not by spirit, but the appointment is done by Lee Man-hee's.

How can I say, a practical way.

Just his private heart, private mind. He just pick whatever he wants to pick. So that's why the tribal leaders are constantly changed. Because if the tribal leader of Peter, the spirit of Peter is with him, he cannot be changed.

But why is constantly changed? Because he likes to pick whatever he prefers.

But he would claim divine guidance. So does he have divine guidance position?

So he say that the position is set because Bible says it. But people can be changed anytime. That's why Mr. Lee says.

Returning to Jesus After Leaving Shincheonji

Was Mr. Shin raised in a Christian home? And how did he become a Christian after leaving Shin Chan-ji? It's often very hard. You feel all alone. You lose all your friends when you leave a cult. So how did he was he raised in a Christian home?

And how did he first hear about the real Jesus?

You mean after he lived?

After he found out, he realized Mr. Lee was a false teacher. How did he come back to the real Jesus? Or was he raised that way?

When you look back, the result is only God's grace. Also, he was a Christian before he went to Shin Chan-ji. He made a sort of devotional dedication to God that he wants to be God's minister. And he went to Shin Chan-ji because he likes to know God more in detail and right way.

And he thought that when he found out Shin Chan-ji's teaching is false, he thought that he should come back to his original position before he left Shin Chan-ji. He thought in a very simple way. If we drive and made a wrong way, then you should come back to the original position.

Like that, he thought that it's right for him to come back to his original position before he leaves. But for recent instructors in Shin Chan-ji, when they found out Shin Chan-ji is wrong and false, they were non-believers, non-Christians before they got involved in Shin Chan-ji.

So when they realized that Shin Chan-ji is wrong, there's no returning place for them to come. So most of them do not go back to Christian faith. Rather, they abandon their faith.

And I'll ask one more question before Chris has some questions. At the time he was leaving, amidst all these accusations, at the time he was leaving, they're kind of scapegoating him. He was also accused of embezzlement, right?

In that time, with money. Can you give a few details about that?

That's the typical measure that Shin Chan-ji takes when Shin Chan-ji members left or when Shin Chan-ji leaders left Shin Chan-ji in order not to Shin Chan-ji people be disturbed or confused or rather Shin Chan-ji wants people to have strong conviction that still Shin Chan-ji is right place for them to stay.

When you think about their their criticism about Mr. Shin or people, those who were instructors and get out and yeah. Yeah, as for his money investment of seven million dollars, if that is true and Shin Chan-ji also show to the people that bank account.

If that is true, they don't need to show the bank account to the people. Rather, they should go to the law court. Why just tell them and show them and do not take any legal measures? If they have a strong evidence for his embezzlement, why they don't go to the law court?

That's the question.

But it did go to the law court and Mr. Shin was an overcomer, right?

Yeah, actually he became an overcomer for them. They don't give him any lawsuit at all. They don't try to fight him at all because they don't have any evidence for that.

Just intimidation.

Yeah, intimidation. They don't even intimidate him. They just kept talk to the people that he made a money investment. Yeah, the best thing for Shin Chan-ji is make him go into prison. Why they didn't do anything at all for those?

Changing Prophecies, Doctrines, and Revelation Fulfillment

What are some of the major changes that he saw in the church? Like, originally, for example, the seven trumpets in the book of Revelation were seven Korean men. Now, I believe it's just Shin Chan-ji organization.

There's a whole bunch of them that have been changed like interpretations of certain doctrines. What are some of the major, major doctrines that he's seen change when he was education director till like now?

Yeah, the core belief of Shin Chan-ji, core doctrine of Shin Chan-ji is betrayal and destruction and salvation. Yeah, these three secrets of revelations are very important. And it's the only new John who knows about these secrets.

Then, if these secrets are so important, Mr. Lee must have seen the reality of people. And there are constant changes about betrayers and destroyers. But only the one, the savior, has not changed at all.

But rest of the betrayers and destroyers are constantly changed.

Can you give some examples?

For example, seven stars of betrayers. In the beginning phase, Immanuel was not included in the beginning phase. He was included later. In the beginning, Moses, Mr. Shin, Shin Jong-han was included. Later, Mr. Shin was replaced by Yoo In-guk.

And Mr. Lee wrote a letter to seven betrayers. If he wrote letters to seven betrayers, then Mr. Lee must have known them personally very well. But how come the reality of a person constantly changed? If he really wrote a letter to seven people, seven betrayers, they should not be changed.

And also seven heads, destroyers, seven heads. In the beginning phase, Oh Pyeong-ho was included in seven heads. And later, Oh Pyeong-ho was out. Then Baek Dong-seop was included. And also for the reality of prostitute, in the beginning, it was Baek Dong-seop.

And it changed to Tak Sung-hwan. In Revelation chapter 13, the beast of seven heads and 10 horns from the sea, out of sea, in the beginning, it was Oh Pyeong-ho. And it changed into Tak Sung-hwan. In Revelation chapter 13, verse 11, the beast from the ground, Mr. Oh, in the beginning, it was Choi Byung-joon.

And later, it changed into Oh Pyeong-ho. So the betrayer constantly changed. And destroyer constantly changed. And the prophecy, if the prophecy is changed, things that will come as changed is really a big problem.

But he changed the things that has done already. He changed the things that has done already. That means he's a total liar.

He has seen and heard these things. And he says, anyone who changes it, adds and takes away from Revelation. He adds and takes away from Revelation.

He says no one has seen it before. But if he keeps changing himself, he's a liar. Mr. Lee is the only one who saw the reality of the Revelation. If the witness changes his witness, that means he does not qualify as a witness at all.

If you go to law court and constantly change your witness, can the judge accept his witness? Not at all. And if you look at Revelation chapter 6, verse 6, one volley and three quads. And in the beginning, there were realities, not the realities that they claim now.

Mr. Lee was, Mr. Lee was, Mr. Lee was volley.

The barley in the...