Cultish: Shincheonji Interview w/ Former Leaders

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00:00

Hey, what's up, everyone? This is Jeremiah, one of the co -hosts here at Cultist. This is a little bit of an interim episode slash crossover.

00:07

Not too long ago, we did a episode series on Shinchanji, very eye -opening.

00:14

A lot of you really gave us a lot of positive feedback. I'm actually back with our two previous guests.

00:19

I've got Steve and Chris. Good to have you both back. Good to see you,

00:24

Nashmika. Good to see you guys. Thank you for this opportunity. Awesome, man. Very super excited.

00:30

Also, we're here with Jordan. What's the name of your YouTube channel again? Great Light Studios.

00:36

Great Light Studios. A lot of great content on there. This is a collab. We both are very self -aware.

00:41

This is a very dangerous cult that is infiltrating churches. This is cross -denominationally, whether it's

00:47

Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, you name it. They're infiltrating churches using a mass amount of deception.

00:55

This is a very exciting interview. Tell us just a little about this interview. Why is this so important?

01:01

You want to get the word out there. We've been speaking out against Shinchanji on both of your channels.

01:08

This is exciting because we launched a trailer a few days ago, like a little preview of this episode.

01:17

Before we do anything, why don't we just play right now the trailer? We had the face of the guests we have on today blurred out.

01:24

Let's just show that trailer as we originally dropped it. Annyeonghashmika?

01:29

It's your friend, Sonsangnim today. Boy, I haven't seen you for a while. I've got a very special surprise for you all today.

01:41

You recognize this guy? So that was the trailer of our special guest.

01:49

Now we can actually show the trailer. This time, we're going to unblur it to you for the first time and show you who we're interviewing today on this episode.

01:58

Annyeonghashmika? It's your friend, Sonsangnim today. Boy, I haven't seen you for a while.

02:05

I've got a very special surprise for you all today. You recognize this guy?

02:14

Okay, so if anybody there knows much about Shinchanji, the person there is the infamous

02:23

Mr. Shin, who is referred to in Shinchanji among the members as Snake Shin.

02:30

Mr. Shin is now a Christian pastor, so he's part of Babylon, supposedly the

02:35

Shinchanji. But he was the number two person in the Shinchanji cult for years.

02:41

He was the director of education. And Chris, you are a former member of Shinchanji.

02:46

You used to hear about this Snake Shin guy while you were a member of Shinchanji. Oh, absolutely.

02:52

He was, like you already mentioned, he is referred to as Snake Shin. He is the ultimate betrayer, or one of them.

02:58

And he is an example of someone who is filled with seven evil spirits, who is now actively speaking out against Shinchanji.

03:07

So he's basically public enemy number one. And we were very blessed to be able to interview Mr. Shin for a long time, asking a lot of the hard questions about the history, their origins, a lot of the changes made in Shinchanji while he was visiting

03:20

North America. So this was an incredible god thing, a great opportunity, a real first.

03:26

And what's really exciting about this is that we're going to be able to present a lot of hard, hard -hitting, first -time information ever in the

03:33

English language from someone who is an insider high up in the movement, who knew Mr.

03:39

Lee Man -hee, the chairman of Shinchanji, really, really well, and were able to actually get this information out.

03:44

So you can reach your friends and family and anyone in Shinchanji with this hard -hitting evidence of who they really are and what they've been about.

03:52

And just in terms of comparison, this would be the equivalent if John Travolta defected from Scientology, and now he's doing a tell -all.

03:59

That's the level of rabbitox. Maybe even higher. Maybe like a first counselor of the

04:05

Mormon church, like a number two guy. Actually, Mr. Shin is actually mentioned in the book of Revelation, according to Shinchanji.

04:14

So this is a really big deal that we're able to get this out, and he's a gracious man. I know they call him snake, and he's the ultimate betrayer, but he's a wonderful Christian man who's telling his story.

04:26

He has a concern for the souls of people in Shinchanji, and it's just a great blessing to see that he has come to the truth and now has a relationship with the real

04:34

Jesus Christ. Awesome. And before we jump into the episode, Jordan, do you have any thoughts on the importance of this interview?

04:41

What are your thoughts on this interview and the importance of it? Yeah, I think more and more in my perspective, the more members

04:49

I talk to on my channel, former members, and hear the stories, the specific doctrinal propositions that these groups adhere to and that they teach are obviously problematic.

05:01

But the thing that concerns me isn't necessarily that they have every doctrinal

05:08

I dotted and T crossed, but it's what the doctrines do in terms of how they impact people.

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The doctrines are used. It's not just that they believe wrong things, that they have wrong sets of doctrinal propositions in their minds.

05:24

It's that they actually then utilize these doctrines to control, to manipulate, and to,

05:30

I would say it'd be completely accurate to say, abuse these members to manipulate them into giving inordinate amounts of their time, their devotion, their money to abandoned family, to abandoned careers.

05:46

And so the doctrines are problematic, but what really concerns me is what the doctrines do and how they impact people.

05:54

And that, I think, is when you think about Jesus, he had a few things here and there to say about the beliefs, if you will, of the

06:02

Pharisees. But what he really was concerned with, what he really got angry about was how the

06:09

Pharisees' mindset and how they thought impacted other people and their control.

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And, oh, sorry, it's probably Shin Chan -ji trying to mess me up there. Probably.

06:26

Let's see, where can I start there? Can you say control? Yeah, so Jesus' main concern was just the harm that wrong beliefs cause people.

06:38

And so, for me, that's really the importance of this is that this sort of information can go out, people can hear it, people that might be on the verge of joining groups like Shin Chan -ji, people who might be right smack dab in the middle of devotion to it, and they can listen to this, and it can confirm to them, and they can say, hey, wait a minute, there is something not quite right here, and maybe

07:02

I should give this a second thought. So I think this, especially coming up from as high up of a position as Shin was, is just hugely significant, and I'm very confident that many people will be impacted by it in a positive way.

07:19

And then one more thing I wanted to add to, sorry for interrupting, this guy was a part of the group since the 1980s.

07:25

He's seen and heard a lot of things. This is why it's so important, because a lot of the failed prophecies, updated doctrines, it's really hard for a non -speaking

07:34

Korean to get access to this information. This is why it's very important for us to get the word out.

07:41

Right. And I appreciate what you said just now, Jordan, because, you know, Jeremiah often repeats on his show how theology matters and bad theology hurts people.

07:50

So we're standing here as a united front today, different people, different perspectives somewhat within the

07:56

Christian church, but we all can agree that Shin Chan -ji is a very dangerous group. We have

08:02

Mr. Yang. He's another pastor who's going to be translating for Mr.

08:08

Shin on this interview. Mr. Yang leads a Korean countercult ministry where they deal with the

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World Mission Society, Church of God, JMS, Shin Chan -ji, and they're called Bible Vaccine Center. So a great, great ministry for the

08:22

Korean brothers over there. And with that, let's take it away as we introduce Mr.

08:27

Shin and Mr. Yang for what we think is a very powerful interview, and thank you for watching. No, I'm really excited for the interview too, and I just want to say one last thing is that all of us, we come from different backgrounds, we're in different denominations, we might have some variants on different secondary issues, but this is another great example where we want to sort of emulate what the late

08:46

Dr. Walter Martin did, put the secondary stuff aside, let's keep the main thing the main thing, where we come together, we collaborate, put our eggs in one basket, and we work together to fight against the kingdom of the cults.

08:58

So I'm very, very excited for this interview. Hope you all enjoy, everyone. What's up, everybody? If you are blessed by this content and you want to support the gospel's proclamation to the cults while equipping the church to combat deception, then come join us and become a

09:10

Cultish All Access member. You'll get an ad -free experience and exclusive content like Cultish the

09:16

Water Cooler, where you hang out with Jeremiah and myself as we go live and interact with all of our members.

09:21

You'll also get early release of episodes one to two weeks early. On top of all of that, there's also

09:26

Cultish the Aftermath. It's an after -show commentary where we get to say all of the things that they won't let us.

09:32

On top of that, you get all of the other training on apologiastudios .com. Come, be one of us.

09:38

Head over to thecultishshow .com or follow the link in the show notes and click the join button.

09:43

Directly support the work of this ministry as the mission is completely funded by you, our listener. 안녕하세요. 안녕하십니까.

09:51

Hi, everyone. It's so nice to see you, all of you. My name is Hyungjoo Yang and I am the director of Bible Vaccine Center.

09:59

As you may have heard of it, you may know COVID -19 vaccine. Like this, the

10:06

Bible vaccine means that we need the Bible vaccine so that we might be able to protect ourselves from false doctrine of Shincheonji or something like that, other organizations.

10:17

So this time, it's my pleasure to have Mr. Shin Hyunwoo. Mr. Shin is known as a

10:25

Shin Snake in Shincheonji. So it's going to be a really exciting time for all of you to have questions and answers with him.

10:34

So let me introduce Mr. Shin. It's so nice to see all of you.

10:45

My name is Shin Hyunwoo, Pastor Shin. Do you have any questions, some basic questions for him?

10:55

Yes, we are interviewing Mr. Shin now. What years were you in Shincheonji?

11:08

I was in in 1986 and got out of Shincheonji in 2006.

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What positions do you have inside of Shincheonji? In the beginning,

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I studied as an education instructor, center instructor. He was in charge of Seoul Church in Shincheonji.

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Then he promoted to the whole head education director of Shincheonji.

11:56

Internationally or just in Korea? Just in Korea. In those times, there's no international mission around that time.

12:03

It was a very small group around that time. One of the seven educators. He was a senior pastor of Seoul Church, Seoul Shincheonji Church.

12:16

Okay. So in Shincheonji's vision in Revelation chapter 4, where he saw the 24 elders and the breakdown, was he one of the persons in that vision as far as the different departments in Revelation chapter 4?

12:33

Revelation chapter 4? Yes. Could you say it again? Well, he had a supposedly John saw the vision in Revelation chapter 4 with the 24 elders and the four beasts and the different people representing the different departments within Shincheonji.

12:48

Was Mr. Shin one of those departments in that vision? His position according to Revelation chapter 4 is in the

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Revelation chapter 4, there's a throne and in front of throne, there are seven torches, right?

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And he was the spirit of the seven torches. So when he received his position, there's some sort of certificate to give him as a seven torches spirit.

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How can I say in English? We give some sort of certificate.

14:32

You are promoted as a something. He's promoted as a pastor. Certificate of position.

14:41

Okay. Will that be okay? Yeah. So he received from Lee Man -hee a certificate of promotion, certificate of his position as a seven torches spirit, the spirit of seven torches.

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And also it is described as seven eyes of the lamb in chapter five.

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And also it means he's the head educator of the whole

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Shincheonji education department. So he was actually written into prophecy in the book of Revelation.

15:32

Yes. So in Revelation, there are characters who are sitting on the thrones.

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That's Mr. Lee Man -hee and also seven educators and also 12 tribal leaders and 24 elders.

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Those are all are supposed to sit in the throne. And he was one of them.

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But for now, the educators, seven torches spirit, they are like we have only the names.

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They don't have actual authority or any position or any real power to organize or educate people.

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But when he was in Shincheonji, he was just below Lee Man -hee.

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At that time, the whole organization was at the top. There's Lee Man -hee.

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And then below Lee Man -hee, there's an educator, education head, then seven educators, then 12 tribal leaders and 24 elders.

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So he was just below Lee Man -hee.

17:17

Very good. So would he be like number two or number three in the church if you wanted to talk about rank?

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In Shincheonji, there's a chairman,

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Lee Man -hee, at the top. Mr. Lee is on the throne of God and Jesus together.

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And below Mr. Lee, there's seven educators. And then below seven educators, there's 12 tribal leaders.

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So as a rank position, rank perspective, he was just below Mr. Lee.

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So he was ranked number two. How well did he know Mr. Lee?

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How much time did he spend with him? Did he go to meals a lot with him? Did he go to his house? How well did he know

18:57

Mr. Lee? How often did he go to his house? How often did he go to his house? He can't remember how many times he had meal with Mr.

19:26

Lee Man -hee because his position as a seven -tortured spirit means that he became the eyes and ears of Mr.

19:37

Lee. So he listened to everything from Shincheonji and reported. And he listened.

19:43

He got orders from Mr. Lee and talked to the people. So he actually was the ears and eyes of Mr.

19:52

Lee. And seven spirit should be always be with Mr.

19:59

Lee. So for the last 20 years, while he was in Shincheonji for 20 years, he was all the time with Mr.

20:09

Lee. So how many times does he have meal with Mr. Lee? Doesn't make sense. You can't even remember.

20:16

He can't count that high. He can't count at all. All the times, always, he was with Mr.

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Lee. He was directly taught by the new John. Yes, I was.

20:32

While he was close to Mr. Lee, did he ever see any behavior that made him have questions, whether financial or relationship with women that made him or any other thing of scandalous nature that made him question

20:52

Mr. Lee's character? He watched financial problems and also women problems quite a times.

21:33

But even though we watched all those kinds of things, but he never had any doubt about him as a

21:42

Paracletus. So he got too close to some of the female members in the church?

21:51

Yes, there were rumors like that from the beginning. And we also heard those rumors from the church, but we don't think that the problem is that serious.

22:08

Not only me, but most of the Shincheonji members are captivated by the church, and when they are captivated by the church, they don't have any doubt about the ethical and moral problems.

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So when they are captivated by the church, they don't have any doubt about the ethical and moral problems.

22:28

He watched those kinds of things a lot of times, but in those times, he was really indoctrinated.

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And even though he watched it and heard about the rumors around him, that doesn't make him any problems at all.

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What's the point? The point is that he is the new god and the new messiah in this time.

22:56

So because he was so much indoctrinated with Shincheonji doctrine, so those kinds of rumors doesn't seem to make any trouble with him.

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And many people, when they heard of those kinds of rumors, they wouldn't believe it at all.

23:20

Even the high -ranking officials, the people at the top, even if they knew about it, they wouldn't deny

23:27

Shincheonji doctrine. How about did

23:54

Mr. Shin ever see like outbursts of anger and temper or revenge and retaliation against members who were not doing what he wanted them to do, where he lost his temper very badly, like he'd have fits of rage?

24:22

Never, ever. He was always very calm. And actually, in front of the

24:36

Shincheonji congregation, he does not really show his temper often.

24:42

I'm asking more privately though. He's a lot of times, his temper.

25:00

But nobody would retaliate to him because he's a divine being in this world.

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Never, ever. It's like North Korean leader,

25:21

Mr. Kim Jong -un. Whoever dared to retaliate to him or give him anger to him, it's impossible in North Korea like that.

25:34

The same is true in Shincheonji. Did he witness, did he ever portray himself as an actual savior at that time for mankind?

26:13

He never heard of Mr. Lee's commands, saying that I am the winner and I am immortal and I am the savior like that.

26:28

He never directly talked to himself, talked to himself or talked himself to the people that he is the divine being or immortal.

26:40

He never heard of it. Mr. Lee makes people believe that he is immortal or winner only through the doctrine, the

27:18

Bible study. So in that part, the education instructors in Shincheonji, they teach people and based upon this

27:28

Bible, there's a summoner who is immortal, who is winner. The one who overcomes.

27:35

Yeah, yeah. And he has come here who will be that person so that people just follow the

27:42

Bible and doctrine. And Shincheonji makes people reach to the conclusion that that person is

27:49

Mr. Lee. So Mr. Lee never mentioned directly himself that I am immortal. So when did it start being taught in the church?

27:58

Because a lot of members today will definitely say he's immortal. He left in 2006.

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Was this started to talk after he left or was he never heard it in there? Talk what?

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About him being immortal, not dying. Because after 2006, maybe before he left. The Shincheonji members who believe that Mr.

28:39

Lee is immortal is from the beginning phase of Shincheonji. Everybody believed that he's immortal.

28:46

But as time went by, people started to say that Mr.

28:51

Lee can die from time to time. But as time went by, people started to say that Mr.

28:59

Lee's immortality is a fact.

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So who said that? It was taught in the church. But Mr.

29:11

Lee never said that he's immortal. But these days, through education instructors, there's some comments gradually come out that Mr.

29:24

Lee could die recently. So even though Mr. Lee doesn't say that he's immortal or he's gonna die, but people gradually catch the hint that Mr.

29:42

Lee could die. But probably he's immortal. It's a mixed doctrine.

30:01

When I look back, the reason why he doesn't tell directly that he's not gonna die, is because he saw a lot of times the former self -proclaimed messiah had legal responsibility for claiming himself that he is immortal.

30:46

He is pretty sure that the reason

30:52

Mr. Lee doesn't say that he's immortal is because he wants to avoid any legal responsibility for his claim that he is immortal.

31:03

And if someone sue him for his being immortal, he might be able to say that,

31:12

Oh, I've never mentioned by myself at all, so that he might avoid his claiming that he's immortal.

31:21

The good example is that when he came out of Shincheonji in 2006, he challenged

31:53

Mr. Lee that his books and writings had a lot of flaws.

32:02

And he claimed that you talk like this, you claim like this. But after reporting his argument to Mr.

32:11

Lee, Mr. Lee claimed that I've never mentioned like this. I've never written like that.

32:18

It's all Mr. Shin's fault. I write correctly, but he distorted it.

32:25

That's his way of working. And one example is that, including your question, is that Mr.

32:34

Lee's claiming that his blood and his flesh, only eating his blood and flesh, people can live.

32:58

According to Mr. Lee's book, he claimed that only by eating

33:04

Mr. Lee's flesh and blood, people can be saved in his book.

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He came out of Shincheonji in 2006 and attacked about that to Mr.

33:19

Lee. Then Mr.

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Lee responded that it's not my claiming, it's not my writing, it's

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Mr. Shin's fault. He was a scapegoat. So all the

33:46

Shincheonji members knew that except that, oh, it's Mr. Shin's fault. And still they know that it was

33:54

Mr. Shin's fault. And that's when they started calling him a snake. Yes, since then, he was called a snake.

34:20

And then he quite much convinced that he's a frog. I think the proper name for Brother Shin should be scapegoat

34:29

Shin instead of snake Shin. I think the proper name for Brother Shin should be scapegoat

34:35

Shin instead of snake Shin. I think the proper name for Brother Shin should be scapegoat Shin instead of snake Shin. Through that, we can know the humanity of Mr.

34:42

Lee Man -hee. Throughout all those events, we realize that Mr.

35:06

Lee is conscious. He's quite sure that he has no conscience.

35:12

at all and he's a liar and he's not a normal person, normal human being.

35:19

Right. I want to go back to what you just said. You said in the book where they talk about eating his flesh and blood, in English we only have three or four books by Shincheonji translated.

35:30

Which was this one of the books that we had in English about the flesh and blood like the Revelation Fulfillment Book or which book was that talking?

35:49

In Shincheonji, they published a book since 1985, and around 20 years ago, the book that many books are published so far.

36:21

Shincheonji gave order to abolish all the books that they published.

36:28

Those books were all before Mr. Shin came out of Shincheonji.

36:35

And after he came out of Shincheonji, they officially recognized the books that they published after he has, yeah.

36:48

But which book was it specifically talking about the flesh and blood? The reality of Revelation.

37:00

We don't have that in English. Those books were published in 1988, 1992, 1995.

37:20

Similar fulfillment books of Revelation. Also published in 1997.

37:26

All those different books on Revelation are all commonly mentioned about Lee Man -hee's blood and flesh.

37:39

So until he came out of Shincheonji, eating Lee Man -hee's flesh and blood is the only way to salvation.

37:49

It's the normal doctrine. Normal doctrine in Shincheonji. And that's understood spiritually, right?

37:55

Because everything is interpreted pretty much spiritually in Shincheonji. So it was a spiritual eating and a spiritual drinking.

38:04

In other words, following the teachings of Lee Man -hee, right? Yeah, that's true.

38:29

And in Jesus' time, only Jesus' words, Jesus' flesh and blood, through Jesus' flesh and blood, we can be saved.

38:38

But this time, the time of realization of Revelation, only through winners,

38:45

Mr. Lee's blood and flesh, which is his teaching, the people can be saved.

38:51

That's the normal doctrine in Shincheonji. So here's a good question. So as the director of education for Shincheonji, was he directly responsible over the publication of those 20

39:03

Shincheonji books that were coming out in Korean by Mr. Lee? Yes.

39:38

Yes. First of all, on the back cover of the book, the author is written

39:57

Lee Man -hee. You cannot deny he's all responsible for his writings.

40:04

Second of all, in Shincheonji, nobody can edit or add or delete his writings because he's a paracletus.

40:16

That his writing is revelation from Jesus. So you cannot edit at all.

40:23

Nobody can edit at all, delete at all, add at all. So it should be conserved as he was written.

40:31

That's the truth. So even the head director, education director like Mr. Shin, cannot edit his writing at all.

40:47

Plus, in the preface of his book, every his book is saying that, all my writing is not given from people or from the seminary.

41:16

It's only through revelation from Jesus. He himself claimed publicly through his preface of his book.

41:23

It's what he saw and heard, all the events of Revelation. I've seen the names, the faces, I've seen everything.

41:30

And there's also important testament, proof. As Mr.

41:45

Lee claims, if Mr. Shin added Mr. Lee's writings, he cannot understand why he appointed him as head director for 20 years.

42:16

Why he published all the books for 20 years? If he edited or deleted, he should be betrayed.

42:24

Right, but here's a good question. Just like the 12 tribe leaders were chosen by God, Jesus, and the angels, was he personally chosen by God, Jesus, and the angels to have his position?

42:54

In his personal experience, it's not by spirit, but the appointment is done by Lee Man -hee's, how can

43:04

I say, a practical way. Just his private heart, private mind, he just pick whatever he wants to pick.

43:16

So that's why the tribal leaders are constantly changed. Because if the tribal leader of Peter, the spirit of Peter is with him, he cannot be changed.

43:31

But why it's constantly changed? Because he likes to pick whatever he prefers. But he would claim divine guidance.

43:45

So does he have divine guidance position? So he say that the position is set because Bible says it, but people can be changed anytime.

44:01

That's what Mr. Lee says. Was Mr. Shin raised in a Christian home, and how did he become a

44:07

Christian after leaving Shincheonji? It's often very hard, you feel all alone, you lose all your friends when you leave a cult.

44:16

So was he raised in a Christian home, and how did he first hear about the real Jesus? You mean after he lived?

44:24

After he found out, he realized Mr. Lee was a false teacher, how did he come back to the real

44:30

Jesus, or was he raised that way? So he must have had a hard time after leaving Shincheonji. How did he come back to the real

44:37

Jesus, and how did he believe in Jesus? When you look back, the result is only

44:54

God's grace. Also, he was a

45:06

Christian before he went to Shincheonji. He made a sort of devotional dedication to God that he wants to be

45:17

God's minister. And he went to Shincheonji because he likes to know

45:29

God more in detail and the right way. And he thought that when he found out

45:43

Shincheonji's teaching is false, he thought that he should come back to his original position before he left

45:54

Shincheonji. He thought in a very simple way.

46:13

If we drive and made a wrong way, then you should come back to the original position.

46:20

Like that, he thought that it's right for him to come back to his original position before he leaves.

46:27

That's what he thought. But for recent instructors in Shincheonji, when they found out

46:51

Shincheonji is wrong and false, they were non -believers, non -Christians before they got involved in Shincheonji.

47:03

So when they realized that Shincheonji is wrong, there's no returning place for them to come.

47:08

So most of them do not go back to Christian faith. Rather, they abandon their faith.

47:17

I'll ask one more question before Chris has some questions. At the time he was leaving, amidst all these accusations, at the time he was leaving, they're kind of scapegoating him.

47:31

He was also accused of embezzlement in that time with money. Can you give a few details about that?

48:02

That's the typical measure that Shincheonji takes when

48:09

Shincheonji members left or when Shincheonji leaders left Shincheonji in order not to Shincheonji people be disturbed or confused.

48:23

Rather, Shincheonji wants people to have strong conviction that still

48:31

Shincheonji is the right place for them to stay. When you think about their criticism about Mr.

48:51

Shin or people, those who were instructors and get out. As for his money investment of $7 million.

49:16

If that is true and Shincheonji also showed to the people that bank account.

49:33

If that is true, they don't need to show the bank account to the people.

49:39

Rather, they should go to the law court. Why just tell them and show them and do not take any legal measures?

50:02

If they have a strong evidence for his embezzlement, why they don't go to the law court?

50:08

That's the question. But it did go to the law court and Mr. Shin was an overcomer, right?

50:21

Actually, he became an overcomer for them. They don't give him any lawsuit at all.

50:32

They don't try to fight him at all because they don't have any evidence for that. Just intimidation. Yeah, intimidation.

50:45

They don't even intimidate him. They just kept talking to the people that he made money investment.

51:02

The best thing for Shincheonji is make him go into prison. Why they didn't do anything at all for those?

51:36

What are some of the major changes that he saw in the church? Like originally, for example, the seven trumpets in the

51:43

Book of Revelation were seven Korean men. Now, I believe it's just Shincheonji organization. There's a whole bunch of them that have been changed, like interpretations of certain doctrines.

51:54

What are some of the major, major doctrines that he's seen change when he was education director till like now?

52:06

Yeah. The core belief of Shincheonji, core doctrine of Shincheonji is betrayal and destruction and salvation.

52:33

These three secrets of revelations are very important.

52:43

And it's the only new John who knows about these secrets. Then if these secrets are so important,

52:58

Mr. Lee must have seen the reality of people. And there are constant changes about betrayers and destroyers.

53:16

But only the one, the Savior has not changed at all.

53:23

But rest of the betrayers and destroyers are constantly changed. Can you give some examples?

53:34

For example, seven stars of betrayers. In the beginning phase,

53:45

Emanuel was not included in the beginning phase.

53:58

He was included later. In the beginning,

54:06

Moses, Mr. Shin, Shin Jong Han was included. Later, Mr.

54:14

Shin was replaced by Yoo In Guk. And Mr.

54:24

Lee wrote a letter to seven betrayers. If we wrote letters to seven betrayers, then

54:41

Mr. Lee must have known them personally very well. But how come the reality of a person constantly changed?

54:53

If we really wrote a letter to seven people, seven betrayers, they should not be changed.

55:03

Destroyer, seven heads. In the beginning phase,

55:11

Oh Pyung Ho was included in seven heads. And later,

55:17

Oh Pyung Ho was out. Then Baek Dong Seop was included.

55:25

And also for prostitute.

55:32

Also for the reality of prostitute. In the beginning, it was

55:42

Baek Dong Seop. And it changed to Tak Sung Hwan. In Revelation chapter 13, the beast of seven heads and ten horns from the sea, out of sea.

56:02

In the beginning, it was Oh Pyung Ho. And it changed into Tak Sung Hwan.

56:09

In Revelation chapter 13, verse 11, the beast from the ground,

56:17

Mr. Oh, in the beginning, it was

56:22

Choi Byung Jun. And later, it changed into Oh Pyung Ho.

56:31

So the betrayer constantly changed. And destroyer constantly changed.

56:40

And the prophecy, if the prophecy is changed, things that will come is changed, is really a big problem.

56:55

But he changed the things that has done already. He changed the things that has done already.

57:05

That means he's a total liar. He has seen and heard these things.

57:11

And he says, anyone who changes it, adds and takes away from Revelation. He adds and takes away from Revelation.

57:24

Mr. Lee is the only one who saw the reality of the

57:32

Revelation. If the witness changes his witness, that means he does not qualify as a witness at all.

57:51

If you go to law court and constantly change your witness, can the judge accept his witness?

58:07

Not at all. And if you look at Revelation 6, verse 6, one barley and three quats.

58:25

And in the beginning, there were realities, not the realities that they claim now.

58:35

Mr. Lee was... Mr. Lee was...

58:42

Mr. Lee was barley. Wheat.

58:52

Mr. Lee was wheat. One wheat. Those who were under Baekmanbong came out from him.

59:18

The saddest church. Those people. Baekmanbong.

59:26

Kim Jong -tae. Hong Jong -hyo. Lee Man -chun. Those three people were under Baekmanbong.

59:33

They were on the city's church, Baekmanbong's church. They came out from that church, and they were three barleys.

59:43

So wait, from Box Recreation Church? Is that what you're saying? Box? Bax. Bax, yes.

59:50

So Bax Recreation, they came, that's where the original barley came from? Yes. Yeah, there is a

59:56

Bax church. Saddest church. They were the three barleys.

01:00:04

My mind is being blown right now. Then in 2002, those three persons were not anymore in Sinchon -ji.

01:00:22

And the wheat is still the same. One wheat is still the same.

01:00:33

And three courts of barley were changed into Ji Jae -suk, who was once a tribal leader of Peter, Gwangju.

01:00:43

And Yoon Yo -han. Yoon Jae -myung. Yoon Jae -myung. Those three were changed into three courts of barley.

01:00:52

And now, they don't say anymore that one courts of wheat and three courts of barley, they were not person anymore.

01:01:15

They just say that those were just small group of people. They changed into like this.

01:01:22

How about the seven trumpets? They were seven Korean men before.

01:01:31

Changed. Seven stars and seven horns.

01:02:13

The kings. Seven trumpets and seven bows.

01:02:20

All changed. They were all people. And they were not people anymore. They were the people who were in the beginning phase of Sinchon -ji and the reality of those people were not changed at all except seven.

01:02:37

Except seven stars. For the rest of the people, the reality of seven bows and trumpets and seven...

01:02:50

Seven bows, trumpets and... Horns. Horns, seven horns. The thing is that those people were not anymore in Sinchon -ji.

01:03:01

They're all out of Sinchon -ji. The Mr. Lee just picked the people's name that he can remember and applied to the realities.

01:03:12

That was the real reality. There's one episode that the reality is not real at all.

01:03:33

In Revelation chapter 6, there were four horses.

01:03:42

The horse stands for the flesh, people. Then the four horses should be matched to four persons.

01:04:00

And when Mr. Lee was educated, taught to the people that there were four realities of four horses.

01:04:09

White horse, black horse, red horse.

01:04:24

White horse, black horse, red horse. Pale horses. He talked to the people that four people which matches to four horses.

01:04:48

When he listened his teaching, Mr. Lee's teaching, when he was in Sinchon -ji, he raised a question to Mr.

01:04:54

Lee that why the white horse is not Mr. Lee? Because at that time, Mr. Lee taught that white horse is not

01:05:03

Mr. Lee, another person. Since he was not

01:05:08

Mr. Lee, he raised a question to Mr. Lee that since Jesus rode on a white horse, so the person who is with Jesus should be

01:05:18

Mr. Lee. So the white horse should be Mr. Lee. And he claimed that white horse is another person.

01:05:31

So he raised a question to Mr. Lee. And he got rid of white horse reality and he insulted him instead of him.

01:05:46

So the reality of Sinchon -ji is not revelation from above. It's manipulation.

01:06:01

That means, here's a very important point. The white horse is

01:06:07

Mr. Lee, is not revelation from above.

01:06:13

It's a revelation from Mr. Shinsnake. Why? Because he changed.

01:06:20

How did he change it? Yeah, because he changed it. Yeah, because Mr. Lee listened to his words. Beautiful.

01:06:29

How about the 144 ,000? Has that changed through the years too? In the beginning phase, the standard of 144 ,000 is the name list of Sinchon -ji's

01:06:54

Book of Life. No great multitude in white.

01:07:08

There was no white horse at that time, right? At that time, the people were not over 144 ,000.

01:07:32

They are much smaller than that. So Sinchon -ji claimed that once you enroll into the

01:07:40

Book of Life, your name, or listed in the Book of Life, then you will become the priest.

01:07:46

All the white multitudes will come. That was the beginning argument of Sinchon -ji. So it didn't matter what tribe you were.

01:07:58

Yes, it is. It doesn't care about which tribe you belong to. Only the members, the only numbers of 144 ,000 are filled.

01:08:09

Then Mr. Lee claimed that the revelation will be fulfilled. So people believe that only the number of 144 ,000 are filled, then the works of God will be fulfilled.

01:08:23

In the end comes, revelations fulfilled at that point. Yes, it is. There was no great multitude in white until they started getting close to 144 ,000.

01:08:33

Right, right. And in the year of 2040, 144 ,000 numbers were filled.

01:08:52

Since then, the doctrine of 144 ,000 were changed. 2040, explain.

01:08:58

2014. 2014, the year of 2014. Here's one. Has Sinchon -ji ever predicted the end of the world?

01:09:08

He needs more explanation about it. No, like the end where revelations fulfilled, did they ever set a date?

01:09:15

The World Mission Society Church of God has set 1988, 1999, 2012.

01:09:30

That was only in the beginning phase. What year? What year? In the year of 1985, there's a book published called

01:09:48

Shintan. Birth of God. Birth of God. And what year did he say?

01:09:56

In that book, the date is exactly set. What's the date?

01:10:03

He claimed that in seven years, the whole works of God will be fulfilled.

01:10:11

From 1980, the 14th of September in 1980.

01:10:20

Up until 1987, the 14th of September.

01:10:36

The reason he claimed that the period of seven years for the

01:10:44

God's completion work is because in Genesis, the God's works of creation were closed, fulfilled in seven days.

01:10:54

So Sinchon -ji calculated a day as a year. So he predicted in seven years, the whole works of God will be fulfilled.

01:11:04

So from 1980, it was the first day. Not 84, which is interesting.

01:11:12

Why not 84, foundation day? Sinchon -ji was founded in 1980 and 14th of March.

01:11:33

Not 84. Not 84. Explain. He always says foundation day is

01:11:38

March 14th, 1984. Ah, later.

01:12:00

In the beginning, the foundation date was in 1980.

01:12:07

But in the meantime, he was put into prison, right? So the day of foundation was postponed to 1984.

01:12:20

When was the change made? So the first members of Sinchon -ji started coming in in 1984.

01:12:37

The time of fulfillment originally started in 1980, and then they changed it in 1984. Yes. Wow. He started his service in 1980.

01:12:55

Then, in 1984, he was put into prison, and he was suspended for the time.

01:13:06

He cannot act at all, I believe. After the probation.

01:13:21

So he set the 1984, March 14th, as a foundation date later, after 1984.

01:13:31

Who did he start the church with, alone or someone else in 1980? In the beginning, the founding members were around 10 people who were under Mr.

01:13:55

Baek, Baekmanbong's Sardis Church. So Mr. Lee was in Sardis Church in the beginning.

01:14:03

He started his service at home. You have to explain why Mr. Baekmanbong came out. It would be nice if you could also say that it was a re -creation church.

01:14:12

Sardis Church was re -created. Yes. As the foundation date was postponed, Mr. Baekmanbong said,

01:14:18

On March 13th, 1980, the end of the world will come. Heaven will enter, and the world will become an ocean of fire.

01:14:24

As soon as it was postponed, Mr. Lee started from the next day.

01:14:30

Mr. Lee was an apostle at that time. He was one of the 12 apostles. Under Mr.

01:14:36

Baekmanbong, Mr. Lee was 12 disciples of Mr. Baekmanbong in Sardis Church, a re -creation church.

01:14:45

And Mr. Baekmanbong prophesized that the end of the earth will come on the 13th of March, 1980.

01:14:56

So everybody went into Cheonggye Mountain. He said that if my prophecy is right, the sun will be suspended in the sky.

01:15:09

But the sun still rose. He said, Oh, it's all failed. And the next day.

01:15:16

On the next day, Mr. Lee recruited people, around 10 people, and started his own church.

01:15:23

And all 10 members, first 10 members of Shincheonji, all 10 were from Mr.

01:15:29

Baek's re -creation church. All 10. Yes.

01:15:39

And then how about Mr. Hong? Mr. Hong? The two witnesses.

01:15:47

Mr. Hong was also under Baekmanbong's church. Mr. Hong was a member of that too. Anybody else famous in the history of Shincheonji came from Mr.

01:15:56

Baek's church? Any of the seven messengers?

01:16:06

And Mr. Lee's family members also were. Lee Man -chun, his younger brother,

01:16:14

Lee Man -hee, was also under Baekmanbong's church. And Lee Man -chun, who is the younger brother of Lee Man -hee, went out of Shincheonji, the beginning phase of Shincheonji.

01:16:28

All these things we talked about tonight, the changes in apostasy and betrayal, the changes of all the different parts of Revelation.

01:16:37

We had, like I said before, only three or four books in English. Is all this written in Korean books that were later changed in later editions?

01:16:47

Like the World Missionary Church of God would change the later edition of their book? Or was it all done verbally during sermons?

01:16:53

Is this documented in the first edition, then they change it in the second edition? It's constantly changed.

01:17:12

No, but the different editions of the book. Yeah, even the different editions of the book, they kept changing. They changed the names of the people in the different editions.

01:17:20

So if you get an early edition, it'll have different names than the later edition. The real name of reality does not show up in Lee Man -hee's book.

01:17:51

Only except one book called, Interest of Religious World?

01:17:58

Which name is that? Religious World. Which name is that? When did that book come out? No, it's not that.

01:18:04

It's the real name. What kind of name is that? What kind of names? There are all names, like Betrayers and Destroyers.

01:18:13

Like Yoo Jae -yeol? All the names. Yoo Jae -yeol. But Mr. Tak. The story of Betrayal, Extermination, and Salvation is all in that book.

01:18:21

Like Mr. Tak and Mr. Oh, the Beast from Europe, the Beast from the Sea. Do we have the changed people in writing in Shin Chan -ji early books?

01:18:31

Oh, the names of the Beast from the Sea and the Beast from the

01:18:36

Land that I mentioned earlier. Do they actually show up in the book? They don't show up in the book. No.

01:18:42

It's almost taught verbally. It wasn't in writing. It's only spoken in words, but it's not actually in writing. That's right.

01:18:48

Yes. We also educated him. He also himself. Like a notebook.

01:18:53

Like a notebook. It's not easy to keep proving it. It's not easy. But if you look at the book closely, there's proof that they have changed the reality of people.

01:19:10

For example, in Revelation 13, the

01:19:16

Beast from the Sea claims that Mr.

01:19:25

Lee said that the reality is Mr. Tak, the senior pastor of the first tabernacle.

01:19:52

The Beast from the Sea with seven heads and ten horns was the senior pastor who reigned the first tabernacle for 42 months.

01:20:11

The senior pastor must be Oh Pyung -ho.

01:20:22

Then we can indirectly catch that Oh Pyung -ho is the

01:20:27

Beast from the Sea. But now, they claim that the

01:20:36

Beast from the Sea is Tak Sung -hwan. He constantly raised questions to Shincheonji about that, the reality.

01:20:49

Then they claimed, they changed and claimed that it's now

01:20:55

Cheongji -gi Education Center. S -E -C. S -E -C. Steward Education Center.

01:21:02

Stewardship Education Institute. S -E -I. Steward Education Institute.

01:21:10

S -E -I. S -E -C. S -E -C. Stewardship Education Center.

01:21:17

I was taught S -E -I. Steward Education Center. The changes of reality, it will raise big problem if Mr.

01:21:38

Lee himself changed. But it's going to be more and more big problem because Mr.

01:21:54

Lee changed because Mr. Shin raised questions to him constantly. Well, before we sign off, is there any other changes that are really important that he didn't mention yet?

01:22:09

Well, before we sign off, is there any other changes that are really important that he didn't mention yet?

01:22:19

Well, I have a lot to say about Daniel 7, but I can't say it quickly.

01:22:26

You can say it to Shincheonji people. Shinmuri.

01:22:33

Shinmuri didn't go through eternal life, but it was changed to eternal life.

01:22:41

One thing he can tell is about white multitudes. Before, the immortality of 144 ,000 is only limited to the 144 ,000, not the white multitudes.

01:23:23

He raised some problem that if you look at the

01:23:29

Revelation, God pitched a tent not on the 144 ,000, but on the white multitudes.

01:23:43

If the tabernacle of spiritual realm pitched a tent into the physical realm, is the salvation and eternal life.

01:24:01

If the white multitudes in Revelation chapter 7 pitched a tent in the spiritual realm,

01:24:14

Shincheonji claimed that the period that white multitudes all gathered is a thousand years.

01:24:24

Healing the nations. Healing the nations. That's called healing the nations.

01:24:30

The leaves. That should be accomplished during the thousand years.

01:24:45

That means after a thousand years, the tabernacle will come down.

01:24:58

So he raised a question, what's happened after a thousand years or now?

01:25:06

He raised a question for that. Shincheonji was so long -awaited that 144 ,000 be filled.

01:25:22

But if the tabernacle pitched a tent after a thousand years, that means that Mr.

01:25:35

Lee and all the Shincheonji members will die. So after his claiming to Shincheonji, Shincheonji changed their doctrine, not only for 144 ,000, but also white multitudes will be saved.

01:26:03

So 144 ,000 and white multitudes all will be saved, have immortality.

01:26:12

And 144 ,000, the difference is that 144 ,000 will reign as a king.

01:26:21

And white multitudes will be the people of God's kingdom. Sorry, go ahead.

01:26:31

In conclusion, Mr. Shin revived all white multitudes into immortality.

01:26:39

How about the people with the second chance, was that always taught with Shincheonji? The people who get a second chance, was that always taught with Shincheonji?

01:26:47

So if people die before hearing the open word, Jesus and spirit will preach to them.

01:26:53

Was that taught in Shincheonji before? Yes, it was long before.

01:27:08

So this has been wonderful, a chance of a lifetime. And we want to thank you,

01:27:14

Mr. Shin. We just want you to finish with one thing. For the

01:27:20

Shincheonji member who is watching this, speak to him. The person who is doubting, wondering if he should leave, wondering if this is the true kingdom of God.

01:27:32

Have him speak to that person who's sitting on the fence, thinking maybe

01:27:37

I should leave, maybe I should not talk to that person right now. To come to the real

01:27:50

Jesus. Tell the

01:28:00

Shincheonji member who is ready to leave, who is thinking of leaving, to come to the real

01:28:05

Jesus. What would you want to share with him? He has doubts.

01:28:17

He's not sure he wants to leave. I fully understand the psychological condition of Shincheonji members now.

01:28:43

Those who are in Shincheonji recently will spend a happy life because they think that they will realize the secrets of heaven, the parables and the revelations.

01:28:57

And they will spend a lot of happy times. And for those who are over 10 or 15 years, there are a lot of Shincheonji members who talk to himself or others that they will come out of Shincheonji after they see

01:29:27

Mr. Lee die. They don't like to get out of Shincheonji now because they spend all their energies and money and time there.

01:29:43

They have strong doubts, but they still have some sort of fear.

01:29:52

What if Shincheonji is right? And they may think that because Mr.

01:30:05

Lee is over 93 years old, he's a very old man, then the reality will come turned out to be true or false soon.

01:30:17

If Mr. Lee dies, there will be a big change. But if you wait up until Mr.

01:30:28

Lee dies, that's a very silly decision. Why do you gamble with Mr.

01:30:39

Lee's life? If you investigate a little further, you will soon find out that Mr.

01:30:52

Lee will die soon. But if you wait until Mr.

01:31:03

Lee dies and stay there in Shincheonji, that's a very silly option for you. One last word for you.

01:31:18

Stop there for going further. Stop there.

01:31:34

Try to find out whether your path is a right path and whether the path that you will go and the result that you expect is a right expectation.

01:31:58

I'm constantly teaching to you that Internet is the fruit of good and evil.

01:32:08

I recommend you to research

01:32:17

Internet and to find out what Shincheonji is really about.

01:32:27

If you start your searching, your decision for truth or false does not take much time.

01:32:42

Then you will find out you are all trapped into the prison that they set up for you.