Chris Green/Paul Williams Debate

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an Elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good afternoon. Welcome to The Dividing Line. It is getting toward the end of the year, believe it or not.

It is the 6th of December already. My daughter is making rumblings about having a baby very soon.

And that makes it really, I'm sorry? It's a what?

It's a baby rumbling. Oh, yes. Never mind. Can't hear you very well. I can hear you fairly well through the uninsulated, unfinished door, but that's the only way

I can hear you. So just to keep that in mind. Anyways. Yeah, don't even bother with that.

It was sort of fun watching some of the people on the channel. We were just on the way back. The machine was the Steve Gregg debate.

And what year was that? I don't even remember what year that was now. That was a while back, but that was interesting.

Anyhow, it's 2008. Okay. That sounds about right.

Sounds about right. We were supposed to do a live debate, as I recall. And then that, I think the church didn't like the idea that there would be disagreement.

Well, that happens in debates. Anyway. Anyhow, welcome to The Dividing Line.

It's a beautiful day outside and it's finally going to cool off next week, sort of. If 67 is cool,

I'd rather have 47. But it's been a while.

We did have a pretty cold winter a few years ago. But ever since then, it's... If you need cold weather, just go up north.

Okay. All right. I'll do that. Anyways. The following has been...

I feel a need to apologize for Dr. White's behavior because I'm the one who brought him into our airwaves. I'm hoping that by tomorrow, he'll have had time to consider what he did today and how negatively it reflected on his...

I had forgotten. That was quite the interesting encounter. Notice we haven't had any since then whatsoever.

And there was a reason for that. Anyhow, I caught this news item and I'm just like...

It just reminded me many, many moons ago. When I was...

I had a full head of hair. Okay. That tells you how long ago this was. I'm just about...

Let's see. I am less than two weeks out of hitting the big 5 -0.

All right. It's coming up. I'm actually looking forward to it. I am looking forward to being 50. I really am.

I'm tired of being 49. I'm tired of the 40s. It's time to start getting some discounts someplace.

And you've been here so long, you have blazed the path for me. Trust me, it's not all it's practically been.

It's not the new 30. Anyway, just about there.

You'll find places on your body you didn't know exist hurt. Oh, come on. I've been doing that to myself for a long time.

What are you talking about? No, no. They just hurt. Not because you did something to them. They just hurt. Anyway, I'm looking forward to that.

And so this is... If I still had hair, this is a long time ago. But some of you know who

Tom Lycus is. I've told this story before. But we get new listeners once in a blue moon. Tom Lycus is sort of a shock jock.

And last I knew, he was in Los Angeles. And he was on KFYI in Phoenix before...

That's sort of where he became known, was on KFYI. And then he went over to Los Angeles. And I was on with him.

I lost track how many times I was on with Tom Lycus. I think it was minimally a dozen.

I think it was more like 16 times. Something like that. And classic example of one of those guys has an on -air persona, which is almost nothing like his actual real person.

I often said that he was a geek with... A gnome with teeth.

Sort of a geek and sort of mild -mannered. But on the air, he was this provocative guy. Anyways, he had a representative of the

American Atheists on. And his name was Brian Lynch. And he was on with some local minister.

And just vile. Just nasty. And, oh, it was horrible.

Just, wow. And a few months later, his producer called me and asked if I'd be on with Brian Lynch.

And I said, sure. I actually wanted to have the opportunity. Because this guy had thrown out a bunch of stuff that was fairly easy to respond to.

So I get there. And we're sitting there. I'm talking with Tom. And he says something about, we're waiting for Lynch to show up.

Well, he had been on the phone before. I just thought this was going to be a phone interview. He was actually in town. And so I'm like, oh, man.

He's going to be in studio with me? So all of a sudden, this guy comes walking in.

He is this little, 5 '2", 95 pounds, sopping wet, little nothing.

And he's so wimpy. He's like, hi, nice to meet you. It's a beautiful studio.

And you have nice weather here. And I'm just sort of like, no way. This is different Brian Lynch.

Because the guy I'd heard on the air was just this fire -breathing, nasty man.

And this guy is just sort of sitting there. Well, as soon as the microphones turned on.

This may have been one of the first times I ever encountered demon possession, I think. Because he just went nuts.

And he would just be... While we're on the air. And then, as soon as the microphone was off.

So where can we go around here to get something good to eat? I'm just like, total multiple personality thing going on here.

Okay? I mean, even Lycus is sort of like, whoa, weird. So anyway,

I don't think it was on the air. I think it might have been. In fact, it might have been.

But I thought it was between calls. Anyways, I think it was on the air. That he just looked at me and he said,

Why don't all you religious people just go live on an island and leave us alone? That's what he really wanted.

He wanted everybody who reminded him of God to be removed from his experience.

Out of the culture. Now, Brian Lynch... I mean, that was the 1980s.

And you might go, ah, just an extreme example. Well, I'm...

Church Cancels Charlie Brown Over Atheist Outrage A Little Rock church has canceled a student matinee performance of Merry Christmas Charlie Brown after critics complained the show was too religious and therefore violated the establishment clause of the

U .S. Constitution. Yes, the cancellation came as the Arkansas Society of Freethinkers who actually don't want you to be free to think.

Freethinking is an oxymoron for them. Freethinkers told television station KATV they had received legal advice on pursuing a possible lawsuit against the

Little Rock School District. We're not waging a war, said Leawood Thomas, a spokesman for the group.

We're basically calling a foul against the separation of church and state. A spokesperson for the school district told

Fox News they had absolutely nothing to do with the cancellation of the performance. They said they had consulted with their legal team and determined that the field trip was appropriate.

Students at Terry Elementary School have been planning to attend a school day field trip to watch a stage version of the holiday classic hosted by the church.

The event was strictly voluntary and teachers sent home letters explaining the purpose of the trip. But it was cancelled on threat of lawsuit.

Now, who threatens lawsuits? Maybe somebody up in Madison, maybe?

I have a feeling. Separation of church and state meaning you cannot in any way, shape, or form even acknowledge what

Christmas actually is. We've already seen this in Sweden and places like that. Sweden, which is just so far out in loony land on this stuff that they've come up with a new pronoun that's not he or he or she.

It's in between somewhere. So we don't offend anyone. If you want to see where we're going just look to Sweden and realize this is sheer, complete, 100 % insanity.

Absolute insanity. But a Charlie Brown Christmas. Remember, there are some people who wanted to boycott the

Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown at Halloween because it promoted bullying.

And now Charlie Brown gets a black eye for being too religious because remember, Linus does quote the

Christmas story. Yes, folks. Secularism is not a neutral worldview.

It may be getting a pass that way but it's a worldview unto itself and the rabid atheist does not want

Christianity to have any voice whatsoever. That is their hope.

That is their desire. That is their dream. And they are working to accomplish that dream.

Yes, sir. Just for your edification, when the shopping cart does return Yes, when the shopping cart returns.

Right after Christmas. 408. Yes, 408. And we'll be there. Let me mention something about that.

Some of you are probably wondering why can't I buy anything from Alpha Omega Ministries? Well, it's all

Rich's fault. It's a long story and obviously this was not how we planned to do it but if you read the blog articles you know that we tried to upgrade some software and it turns out that our old cart which is rather old would not work with the new software and we weren't aware of that and we were only partially prepared to start working toward a really nice new setup and so now

Rich has been working many many many hours getting it set up but what that means is during the busiest time of the year your friendly neighborhood,

Alpha Omega Ministries can't sell anything. So some kind folks have already stepped up to help us make up that shortfall but please remember us at this time of year and we were just having a conversation about the fact that the folks in Washington there are a lot of folks in Washington that would love to see non -profit tax exemptions go away they'd love to see charitable deductions go away all that kind of stuff and we would obviously be deeply deeply impacted by every non -profit would be deeply impacted by the loss of tax exempt status and things like that but some a whole lot more than others and the fact of the matter is the vast majority of our supporters ain't trying to hide excess money let's just put it that way they're giving out of their need not out of their excess they're giving because they believe it's important for our voice to be here it's important for a truthful response to Islam and secularism and Mormonism and Roman Catholicism and Jehovah's Witnesses and the defense of the

Trinity and all these things and that's where the vast majority of our supporters come from we don't talk about it much but folks you need to realize it's the people that are running on treadmills listening to this program it's the people who send in $10, $20, $30, $40, and $50 that's how we keep going that's how we keep the lights on that's how we keep the ministry operating we do not have big corporations that dump money on us and big rich people we just don't

I offend all of them I'm too scary for those folks

I might say something that might get everybody in trouble and so it's that's how it's done and a lot of people make the bad assumption that because we don't talk about money and because we don't talk about things like this that that means that we don't have needs well we do and we just feel that talking about important stuff is more important than talking about that so just a reminder along those lines there is one avenue for those who are trying to find things that you would find valuable we do still have the

Amazon store have we ever gotten anything from that? yeah really here and there it's not a lot but you know every now and then we you know basically once we amass $100

Amazon will send us a check so a couple times a year maybe but the point being we still have a volunteer

Buzz yeah who has compiled a listing a nice listing of books and other things that really do dovetail nicely in with what we're doing here maybe we'll have a way of letting people know more about that right and so amazon .amn

.org if somebody wants to go and like a gentleman I spoke with this morning really needed to get his hands on the

Forgotten Trinity well I still have that ability he can do it there you know and we receive something yeah it's better than nothing you know so well just keep us in your prayers and you know if you want to help us out during this time period obviously right now everybody and their uncle is hitting you up saying we need to end the year strong and all the rest of that you know

I know I know just so you know we are a non -profit corporation that functions because you all help us to function so that having been said we move on from there

I've taken the time to put the Williams Green debate together here there's a couple quotes that I just just want you to hear

I'm just going to play us one why is it why isn't there just seems to be such a massive double standard when it comes to dealing with Islam because some of the statements that Paul Williams makes amazingly offensive amazingly offensive if it just seems like Christians are very hesitant to say anything as strong as he does and they don't seem to see that that's how things work listen to this one line from a series of lines from the

Q &A section and then notice the audience applause at the end just check this out he was not someone who got required to be sacrificed like a cow or a sheep and slaughtered that's not what

God requires of people in Islam God is a forgiving and merciful God and he does not demand a blood payment before he can forgive people and that's why

I'm a Muslim and no longer a Christian because the God of mercy and grace is only found in Islam unfortunately not in the

Christianity we see today which is based on Paul's theology rather than what Jesus actually taught it's the religion of Jesus I follow not the religion about Jesus which unfortunately many

Christians today follow can we have a question so lots of folks found that kind of rattling summary of Paul Williams apostasy very compelling we will obviously get to that as we look through the materials but it is sad it is amazing there was an excellent section let me see if I can this is later on this was

Turton fan made note of this on his blog so I thought I'd go ahead and play it for you so you can hear it yourself it was one of the better exchanges in regards to the subject of this particular debate

I'm going to play both what Williams said and what

Chris Green said so this is just one of the questions that comes up from the audience listen to how it went that Jesus died does

Peter say that Jesus does Peter say that Jesus is God or God incarnate or the second person of the trinity or divine anywhere in Acts now did you catch that did you catch that in Acts in Acts he knows that second

Peter 1 .1 clearly identifies Jesus as God now my gut is he would do the well all real scholars know that Peter didn't write that he would default back to the sceptical perspective but he's avoiding it by just saying well in Acts well there are all sorts of critical sceptical scholars that don't think

Luke wrote Acts either so it seems somewhat odd to make that distinction but anyways just thought

I'd point that out Christ you meant bad but Christ meant good so does he say anywhere in that speech or anywhere in Acts that Jesus is

God or the second person of the trinity or God incarnate or divine now the second person so you really expect

I mean this man sat in Christian churches claims to be a former Christian you know we heard that's why

I'm no longer a Christian no he was never a Christian what bothers me about Paul Williams is when

I hear Muslims making statements like this who have been raised as Muslims okay

I get that I can't expect that they've ever been taught appropriately that they ever had opportunity of really knowing the truth you have to be patient this man's an apostate he was in a church he knows better he knows better than the things he's saying you just you can't view him in the same way because of this very issue and it's it's a shame that is the subject of the debate and I submit that he did not say that now whether or not he was crucified or resurrected is a fascinating discussion it's a fascinating discussion which he would never engage

I bet you he will never debate anybody on that subject I bet he'll never debate anybody on that subject because he knows that every single person that he cites

Richard Balcom for example would all say the exact same thing that one of the best documented realities of history is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ he knows that so there's got to be somewhere within his mind that he goes

I can't go there there's just got to be this is supposed to be a debate about Jesus as God is irrelevant it is incidental to me whether or not

Jesus rose from the dead if we worship Jesus today as God and he was a man we are committing adultery adultery even adultery even what's the assumption there?

if we're worshipping Jesus today as God and he was a man well if he was once a

Christian he would know and hence have to accurately represent his former faith or be dishonest that we recognize that Jesus was a man he was the

God man but the entire silly he at one point talks about God cannot die

Jesus died therefore Jesus is not God it is so simplistic that is not argumentation meant to communicate anything to any of the former members of his former church that's not meant to communicate to Christians because Christians know better we know our faith better than that that is argumentation for your own side and when you're in a debate and all you're doing is going ra ra ra to your own side what does that tell you?

what does that say about your perspective? what does that say about your stance in regards to truth?

which is a serious sin in Judaism as it is in Islam and that's the issue of debate by the way, idolatry is a very serious sin in Christianity as well

Christians are trying to get off that subject Christians are trying to get off that subject

Paul Williams I challenged you to debate that subject so don't tell me

Christians are trying to get off that subject that's just again utterly dishonest from Acts here is the challenge does

Peter anywhere in Acts say this? here is Acts chapter 3 now,

Chris Green gets up he gets to comment on the audience questions as well unfortunately,

Paul Williams volume is lower than Chris Green so you're going to have to listen carefully to hear what he says now let me give you let me just go ahead and read for you the text, because it is a beautiful text

I got to admit, you know just thinking about this text once again reminded me, and if you've been a

Christian for really any period of time you've had this experience as long as you're one that seriously seeks to read and understand the

Bible you you've probably read the entire

Bible or at least all of the New Testament and you've read certain books multiple times and you go back to a text and you read it, and you know you've read this, and you recall reading it and you might even have some notes in your

Bible or something like that I had a friend back in St. Louis I was looking at his

Bible and man, I've never seen so many notes in a

Bible it's to the point where honestly it's next to impossible to read almost anything in the

New Testament and there's almost as much in the Old Testament I mean, here is someone who reads their

Bible it's great, a little cluttered for my taste, but it's great but you read the text again and all of a sudden yeah,

I've read these words yeah, I thought about these words, but there's just there's just something that just flies out at you and all of a sudden the text that you've read dozens of times before shoots up your list of favorite texts, of texts that have incredible meaning to you and here in Acts chapter 3 beginning in verse 12, when

Peter saw it it's the healing of the man in the in the temple and while he clung to Peter and John, all the people, utterly astounded ran together to them in the portico called

Solomon's, and when Peter saw it he addressed the people he took advantage of an opportunity of witness men of Israel why do you wonder at this or why do you stare at us as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk the

God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers glorified his servant

Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate when he had decided to release him now let's let's go through this slowly, shall we

I mean, I love teaching the word and it is this is a pretty important section notice what

Peter is doing Peter doesn't see himself as having started a new religion or being a part of a new religion he says the

God of our fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac the God of Jacob the God of our fathers glorified and yeah, that's

Doxodzo glorified his servant Jesus whom you delivered over paradidomi could also be translated as betrayed but it's to deliver up whom you delivered up and they did something else as well they denied him they denied him the

Greek term is arneamai and that's the same term that interestingly enough in the last program when someone said if we deny him he also will deny us arneamai, to deny so there is delivering up and there is the denial before the face of Pilate, the presence of Pilate when he had decided to release him now, what's interesting is, in what we're going to listen to,

Paul Williams is going to make some comments unfortunately,

Chris Green he's under time constraints you do this and it would have been a little better if he had started at verse 14 which actually

I think he did but at verse 13 so you'd have the context but you denied the holy and righteous one, now that is arneamai, now it has just been said that Jesus was the one that you delivered over and denied, so in the preceding verse, the object of denied is

Jesus so logically it would seem that in verse 14 it says but you denied the holy and righteous one and asked for a murderer a phaneia to be given over or granted to you so then look at the contrast that is provided you denied the holy and righteous one you asked for a sinner so you had someone who was holy and righteous someone who was undefiled and then you asked for a murderer someone who is under the just condemnation of the law, you asked for a murderer to be granted to you and you killed, who kills?

a murderer but who did you kill? tonde arkegantes zoes the author of life the author of life who was given over?

Jesus who was denied? Jesus verse 14 but you denied the holy and righteous one, that's

Jesus and you killed the author of life whom God raised from the dead to this we are martyrs martires esmen we are martyrs we are witnesses and his name by faith in his name has made this man strong whom you see and know and the faith that is through Jesus has given this man this perfect health in the presence of you all

Jesus is the focus all the way through but listen to that phrase the arkegant the author of life now you're going to hear

Paul Williams say it doesn't mean he's deity well let me just ask a simple little question here and I don't know how many times

I've repeated it but I'm going to repeat it again because repetition is the mother of memory don't as a believer allow yourself to be put in a position where you are constantly having to give an answer and not making sure that the other side has to answer to the same subject in other words think about it from our perspective it makes perfect sense for Jesus to be called the author of life he's the author of life in the sense that he's well how's he described in Isaiah 9 he's the sar shalom the prince of peace he is the one who brings about peace through his sacrificial death that's how he establishes that peace and here he's the author of life the very life that we have as John had put it and interestingly enough here's a clear connection between the substance of Johannine teaching and the apostolic proclamation of the earliest period over against the critical theories that turn

John into something else which are of course repeated uncritically by Paul Williams John chapter 5 he has been given to have life within himself no mere creature is the archagon the author of life by his sacrifice by his ministerial work he provides life yes and he's the one who raises the dead and he's the one through whom all things were made as Paul says in 1

Corinthians 8 5 and 6 we exist by him and through him so there is perfect consistency

Peter, John, Paul no reason to try to put divisions there but what an incredible phrase the author of life and what an amazing place to put it you killed the author of life there's so much to be thought about there is that even possible it does come up in this debate you're actually saying

God died it's the same old we'll get to it we will have to criticize

Williams once again for adopting a view of death that wouldn't have been his as a Christian or a

Muslim but there are Muslims going I don't understand how God can die well

God doesn't cease to exist but the God man can give his life that's the whole purpose of the incarnation in the first place doesn't mean he ceases to exist but he is the author of life and how what more of a commentary could you need on the depravity of man than to think about the fact that the author of life enters into his own creation and what do we do with him we put him to death is that not the essence of the contrast between light and darkness we love darkness, he's too bright he's bringing light extinguish the light but as soon as he says you killed the author of life, whom

Han Hathayas He raised him from God raised him from the dead and of this we are martyrs, we are witnesses what an incredible how could those words fit into a

Muslim context that's why I was saying don't, whatever you do, you have to keep in your mind they must answer these questions if they're going to quote these texts then they have to answer these questions too and there isn't a

Muslim alive ok I'll take that back there isn't a an orthodox

Muslim alive who could call

Jesus the holy and righteous one and the author of life in the context it's used in Acts chapter 3 you couldn't do it you couldn't do it

Jesus is not the author of life for Muslims he was the Jewish Messiah they're not really sure what that means as we'll see he was the

Jewish Messiah but you know it says in Matthew 15 -24 that he was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel so it's not for anybody else of course that is a gross abuse of the text as we will point out but the point is they would never they could not possibly believe that this is what

Peter actually said did Peter identify

Jesus as the author of life I can guarantee you

Muhammad was not the author of life Muhammad wasn't the author of life but Jesus was

Jesus is the author of life so there's the text sorry about that started preaching again but I just I have a feeling that there's a coffee mug or a tie coming with this text

I just wish I had artistic capacity I do not but I've got this tie in mind with this text

I just need to find someone who has artistic capacity to make it work I can just see it in my mind it's sort of frustrating to I can see it just can't make it just can't make it appear anywhere so anyways there's the text so now let's listen to how

Chris Green presented it the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the

God of Jacob the God of our fathers glorified his servant Jesus we can go on to that if you want to whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate whom he had decided to release but you denied the holy and righteous one that's title for God if you wish no it's not no it's not really that's okay so I guess let me try to make his argument for him and the idea is there can be human beings who are holy and righteous just as there were other people other than Jesus who were called

Messiah he's going to point that out as well see the Muslims have this real problem son of God well other people called son of God so it doesn't really mean anything when applied to Jesus well there is son of God but then you have the son of God in a unique way there were anointed ones but then you have the

Messiah in a unique way you have holy and righteous men but then you have the holy and righteous one who is denied and put to death so the idea is on their side their argument is well other people are like that so he can't be unique once you put it in that sense you go well wait a minute so because there are many basketball players

Michael Jordan wasn't the best there wasn't the Michael Jordan because there are other people named

Michael Jordan that go out and shoot baskets really that's the logic behind it but that's what we keep hearing from these folks doesn't make a lick of sense but that's that's how it goes

I asked for a murderer to be granted to you and you killed the author of life is what

Peter listen folks I was asked for evidence now did you catch that?

that's not evidence he was called that's not evidence he was called well pray tell

Mr. Williams what's that evidence of? if Peter viewed

Jesus in the way that you say he viewed

Jesus then you tell me would he describe

Jesus in this way? yes or no? that's the kind of argument that has to be put to this man

I was asked for evidence that Peter preached that Jesus was

God and yet died you killed the author of life is what

Peter says I put it to you ladies and gentlemen you may disagree with what Peter said you may disagree with Luke saying it you may think the whole thing is a fabrication but that the

New Testament teaches it in that very book that Paul said he didn't is true now one of the reasons that I wanted to play that is you know

I've picked on Chris Green on a couple of things you don't turn to people in rebuttals give them their time etc etc but that was very well done and TurretinFan yesterday wrote a blog article noting that element of the exchange itself and he then expanded on evidences in regards to that particular text you might want to take a look at on his website so I want to play that for you and sort of join that together with looking briefly anyways at Acts chapter 3 and I don't know it's not a quote unquote

Christmas theme but I think there is in my mind anyways a real connection between thinking about the description of Jesus and I love

Van Lees I love the folks at Covenant Grace Church I wrote to Van and said Van I'd really like to have a copy of what

I did Sunday night in MP3 to post it for the

Christmas season and of course Van's response was I'll send you a copy in other words it's coming by snail mail that's the most advanced mechanism of transmission that Van has

I'm afraid not like here I'll file attach an MP3 for you that kind of thing at least a guy can use a computer well yeah but yeah

I know anyway love those folks love those folks but I do hope to get that stuff but I did a study of Isaiah chapter 9 and especially the just that incredible text

I love doing that around the Christmas season but it just strikes me there's just something so incredible to think about the author of life being born entering into human existence you know there's one thing that you cannot dare not notice about that if you want a reason to recognize the sanctity of human life there it is there it is

I mean secularism does not offer you any reason whatsoever to honor the sanctity of life none you are a the random chance result of the collision of molecules you have no transcendent purpose

Stalin was just doing what Stalin was doing there's nothing right or wrong in the secular world view on that outside of opinion balls and that's what's so sad about our society selling its birthright selling its worth out to the despicable shallow worldview of secularism it's just disgusting but you want a reason to recognize the sanctity and worth of human life

God not only created it he took the time to enter into it to redeem it there you have a foundation there you have a reason for opposing the culture of death breaks my heart absolutely breaks my heart

I was struck with it you know my son was born seven weeks early and in 1986 that was you know that was that was still pretty early but you know what

I mean and I'll never forget driving home from the hospital one of the toughest things about my firstborn's birth was that we had to go home without him that's tough on a mom a first time mom you don't want to go home without the baby so he was in neonatal intensive care for three days and in comparison to some of the other babies in there he was huge okay

I mean my wife was two and a half pounds at birth and that was well I better not tell you when that was but you can sort of guess close real close there really close almost went over the fiscal cliff there but but I recognized the reality

I was driving home and I recognized the reality as we left him there we had visited him in his little incubator and stuff like that that as there was all this attention being given to him and technology being used to to keep him alive and to monitor him and all the rest of that stuff yeah

Turgeon Fan just said 29 years ago yeah that's right that's exactly right unfortunately my son is 26 so that would really cause a bit of a problem at that point but anyway all this technology being used to keep him alive and only a few buildings down babies in better shape than he could be chopped up in the womb and sucked out and no one no one would pay the price for that murder well don't get me wrong folks that price will be paid someday in eternity judgment will be done judgment will be done but you want a reason to believe in the sanctity of human life the incarnation proves it and it may be one of the reasons why there's a difference between how

Christians and Muslims respond to blasphemy some yahoo in the hills of North Carolina burns a

Quran and Muslims kill people Christians don't do that Christians don't do that and that's because we believe

God became flesh the Logos became flesh and dwelt amongst us see theology matters that sounds like the name of a new radio program that is going to be premiering in January on WMCA radio on Long Island hosted by moi yes indeed we are actually going to have

I believe the half hour immediately before renewing the mind by R .C.

Sproul and I think the program is going to be titled theology matters so we'll be letting you know more about that as we get to it but I better get to our phone call here so we have enough time to answer the question

I don't even know what the question is other than Mac has a question Hi Mac how are you? Hello Dr.

White how's it going? Thank you very much for taking my call I've been speaking with this

Muslim friend of mine for the past three days and he brought up this objection to me he cross referenced

Numbers 23 verse 19 and John 7 verse 9 through 10 his argument was that in Numbers 23 verse 19

God is saying that he's not a man that he should lie and a man that he should change his mind and he cross referenced that with the

John verse which basically shows Jesus basically telling his disciples that he was going somewhere and then he changed his mind and went somewhere else so with that he said that Jesus is disqualified from the title of being

God Just a couple things first of all

Numbers 23 verse 19 is one of the texts that we use in witnessing to Mormons and others it's one of the many texts that God is not a man that he should lie nor a son of man that he should change his mind as he said will he not do it or as he spoke will he not fulfill it so the point of Numbers 23 19 is that God has a purpose and he's going to accomplish that purpose it is not that we do not see for example

God proclaiming destruction upon a city and then relenting of that from our perspective it seems like God changed his mind only because we don't see his eternal decree and we don't see what all of his purposes are but the point is that God is not the type of being that lies and is changeable and things like that Jesus does not lie or is not changeable in John chapter 7 going up to the feast

John 7 verse 8 says go up to the feast yourselves I do not go up to this feast because my time has not yet fully come having said these things to them he stayed in Galilee but when his brothers had gone up to the feast then he himself also went up not publicly but as if in secret to go up to the feast was a public celebration you went up in fact there are the ascent psalms in Psalm 121

Psalm 120 the songs of ascent it was a part it was an open public thing where you engaged in the singing of the psalms and all these things that you would do along the way that was what going up to the feast meant

Jesus did not go up to the feast in that way he went up quietly possibly by another route he did not go up with the throngs of pilgrims he did so as it says and John even has to explain it then he himself went up not publicly but as if in secret in other words he didn't go up in the way that he had told his brothers that they were supposed to be going up he went up in a different way it was not the way that people normally did it and he had a reason for it what does it say his time had not yet come his hour had not yet as it says in verse 8 my time has not yet fully come

Jesus knows that if he's going to come up in that way that he is going to attract a huge crowd

I mean John chapter 7 is right after what? John chapter 6 what happened in John chapter 6 he had to send the crowds away because they wanted to do what?

come and make him king by force and so those where would he be coming from?

the very same place where all these people were so if Jesus openly does the procession to the feast that would be the norm those same people are going to be gathered together once again the messianic fever is going to be there make him a king by force and the whole issue is going to be forced ahead of the time and not in the way that God's sovereignty had intended it to take place there has to be other things that take place first and so Jesus has not quote unquote changed his mind because he is not going up to the feast in the way that he told his brothers to he has not changed his mind he has not lied there is no contrast in any way shape or form between what is said of the nature of God as being unchanging in Numbers 23 and what

Jesus did in John chapter 7 that wouldn't even work in regards to the fact that you know people try to say in regards to Numbers 23 well but God relented and destroyed this place or look what

God did with Jonah you know Jonah said I knew you wouldn't do this you know things like that that kind of argumentation really is a stretch to try to get around the fact that the authors of these texts intended to communicate something that is consistent and is harmonious and the problem is the only reason your

Muslim friend doesn't believe what both Numbers 23 and John 7 say is because he believes the Quran and the author of the

Quran did not understand these things and therefore taught him incorrectly alright

Dr. White thank you very much I really appreciate it. Was that too much or did that give you what you needed? No that was perfect I appreciate it.

Okay thanks a lot God bless. God bless. Alright there are so many arguments and texts like that in fact let's see we've got about four and a half minutes here's a good example of it this is why

I love this program I love Audio Notetaker because I can just I know exactly where this is it's marked in blue I can go right there listen to Paul Williams this is a this is another one of the standard let's abuse the

Bible throw it out there and again when I hear a person who's been raised as a

Muslim doing this I go alright I just need to correct them they may never have heard differently but when

Paul Williams does it it just strikes me as grossly dishonest here's the clip For example Jesus was quite clear for all you non -Jews here

I'm sorry that Jesus wasn't sent for you he said I'm only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel So there you go

Jesus was not sent but Mohammed they like to contrast it in the very next phrase is

Mohammed peace be upon him said by God said in the Quran I'm sent as a mercy to all the world so we don't

Now you actually could argue against that from the text of the Quran there are texts that would indicate that this is a much later

Islamic presentation in essence but leaving that to the side how would you respond to that how would you respond to that Matthew chapter 15 was being talked about Matthew 15 -22 and a

Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out saying have mercy on me Lord son of David my daughter is cruelly demon possessed but he did not answer her a word and his disciples came and implored him saying send her away because she keeps shouting at us but he answered and said

I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel but she came and began to bow down before him saying

Lord help me and he answered and said it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs but she said yes

Lord but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their master's table then Jesus said to her oh woman your faith is great it shall be done for you as you wish and her daughter was healed at once they don't tell you the whole story the whole story is this illustrates the exact same problem with the who touched me argument both are gross simplistic silly misreadings of the text

Jesus wasn't confused about who touched him he was bringing out her faith Jesus isn't confused in this situation he isn't being mean to this woman he's bringing out an expression of her faith he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel that's right he didn't go off to Greece he didn't go off to Rome that wasn't

God's purpose but are you seriously going to suggest to me that Matthew who wrote these words intended you to understand the words of verse 24 the way that Paul Williams just used them this is the same book that ends with Jesus all authority has been given to me in heaven and in earth go ye therefore where only to Jerusalem no go into all the world preach the gospel it is simply dishonest to take one text in Matthew now

I know that most Muslims don't know about Matthew 28 19 through 20 they've never made the connection if they've ever heard it and they never thought well that's the same author and most

Muslims would go well yeah you shouldn't you shouldn't interpret an author in contradiction to himself

I mean I wouldn't they wouldn't like that if we did that with Muhammad right but Paul Williams does know he does know that quote this one little phrase and to ignore what's found in the rest of Matthew is absolutely deceptive it is dishonest it is wrong

I don't understand it I can understand the person raised as a Muslim I can get that I don't get this level of deception

I don't get it at all be ready for that one though because oh man many many many many people many people will quote that one not knowing the rest of Matthew and you might be able to help you might be able to help thanks for listening to the dividing line today we'll be back

Lord willing on Tuesday to continue the process of doing what we do on this program thanks a lot for listening

God bless It's a

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