Is The Rapture In Our Future?

Non-rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat.

I want to sink it.

Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? We're being delusional.

Delusional?

Delusional is OK in your world view.

I'm an animal.

You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly OK. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me.

What?

What?

What?

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

Right.

Don't go into the world and make homies.

Right.

Disciples.

I got a bit of a jiggle, Nick. That's a joke, master. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not. Behold my servant whom I uphold, my chosen in whom my soul delights.

I have put my spirit upon him. He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street. A bruised reed he will not break.

In a faintly burning wick he will not quench. Here it is. He will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands wait for his law.

Apologia Radio and the Guest Introduction

That's Isaiah 42, y 'all. Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. You guys can get more at ApologiaStudios .com. A-P-O-L-O-G-I-A-Studios .com.

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So thank you. I'm Jeff, the calm of the ninja. That is Luke, the bear right there.

What up?

That's Joy, the girl.

Hello.

And as you can see, we have a very, very special guest in the studio with us today. I am thrilled. So before I bring Dr. Damar on, before I bring him on, I want to just sort of tell you, I was raised in a Christian home, heard the gospel immediately.

First Bible study ever went to, ever, ever went to in my life was a little youth group Bible study. I was 16 years old and I walk in and I don't know anybody there. There's only a few people there, but on the television is an old 70s or literally 80s film on the rapture, pre-tribulational rapture.

That's what I walked into. My first Bible study was on secret rapture, seven years of tribulation. That was my very first Bible study. And from that point on, I was a fiend about eschatology and time stuff.

I would go to bookstores to get the Jerusalem Post to see what the new things were in Jerusalem. Like, hey, y 'all know they got the red heifer. They got the cornerstone. They got it all ready to go any moment.

I was a freak. I would watch the Howlinsey Report every Friday night. I believe it was, or maybe it was Sunday night. I watched the Howlinsey Report. I was reading everything eschatology. My Bible college was dispensational pre-millennial.

And then I started to read the book of Revelation. Just Lord, help me to understand this. Help me to understand it. I'll take the blinders off. I just want to let everything go. And just, what are you saying?

And I committed to read the book of Revelation. Once a day, every day for 30 days. By day four, I remember I was in Starbucks. I read through Revelation. I closed the book. And I thought to myself, what's happening?

This can't, this can't be. It can't be future to me. Some of the stuff in here, did it happen already? And so then I start reading the Olivet Discourse just fresh. Like, let it speak. No people teach, what does it say?

And I started to get freaked out. Because I thought to myself, this really seems like it had to happen before they all died. And I started kind of panicking. Because I didn't know anybody in my circle that believed.

I didn't know it was possible. And thank the Lord. The Lord directed me and guided me to really historic Christianity. And many Christians in history. All the way down to the church fathers. Who were even using the Olivet Discourse and the Great Tribulation.

As an apologetic against the Jews. That Jesus truly was the Messiah. And then I discovered post-millennialism. And I discovered some of the giants of the faith in history were all post-millennialists.

Including the Puritans. And I discovered that the view that I had of eschatology was actually a new view in history. And no one had any perspective like it before the 19th century. And so I started to get kind of settled in that.

And really got directed at that point to two men. That became my primary teachers and encouragers in this area of eschatology. And the supremely was Uncle Gary. Gary DeMar from American Vision. And so from that time forward I picked up his books.

I was getting his articles. Listening to his lectures. And so Gary welcome to Apology Radio brother.

It's good to be here.

So AmericanVision. Is it .com or .org now?

Both.

What's the best one?

AmericanVision .org. And then from there you can get to everything else. That's there. The store and articles and so forth.

Okay.

The Olivet Discourse, the Great Tribulation, and the Meaning of "This Generation"

So as we bring Gary on. We start talking about this. We're going to talk about Rapture stuff. Postmillennialism. Eschatology. End Times stuff. For all you guys that are interested in that. I want you guys to go to American Vision.

And check out the articles. Check out the store. I would say the book that really affected me. And really transformed my thinking Gary. And it was such a huge blessing and helped me. Because I was kind of in a panic state at that moment.

Like I don't know anything. Was End Times Fiction.

Oh yeah. Okay.

End Times Fiction. It was a little book.

Thomas Nelson. I knew the Mike Hyatt. Who was with Wogomuth and Hyatt. They had started a publishing house. One of the first books they published of mine. Was actually Last Day's Madness. And Mike Hyatt worked for Thomas Nelson.

But Wogomuth and Hyatt eventually went out of business. He said. He called me up. He said Gary. Actually I got it from a book agent. David Dunham. He said Gary. Thomas Nelson wants you to write a book on Left Behind series.

And I met with Mike Hyatt. He came to Atlanta. And I said you want me to write a book on Left Behind series. And let me understand this. These bookstores are selling these books like hotcakes. They eventually ended up being like 16 volumes.

And you want me to write a book refuting the Left Behind series. So they're probably make. They might make four dollars on my book. And probably make tens of thousands of dollars on Left Behind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I said I'll do it. I'll do it. And I wrote it. End Times Fiction. When I got the rights back to it. I re-titled it Left Behind Separating Fact from Fiction. But it's a good primer to this whole debate.

It is.

The whole discussion. So it's called Left Behind Separating Fact from Fiction. It's up at American Vision.

I think if the print version isn't available. I'm sure. I'm pretty sure that the downloadable version would be. If not, I'll make sure it's up in the next couple of days.

Okay.

So that book I think is like. It's a good primer. It's a good small book that hits a lot of the big. The larger issues. That really will begin to. I think. It causes us all to start really probing. To say.

Wait a minute. Is what I believe. Is it accurate? Did I accept this and believe this? Because I actually saw it in scripture. Or did I believe it? Because it's a paradigm that was given to me. Via well-intentioned pastor or teacher.

Something like that. Is this where this comes from? Did it come from the Bible itself? Or did it come from proof texts? That I was fed. Throughout my life. And it was a really encouraging book for me.

Because that was my whole thing. Was a Left Behind series. The rapture. I remember having debates in Bible College. Gary. Where we were arguing. Whether we actually had six months or two years left. That was in 1996.

And I remember somebody suggested. We had ten years or something like that. And we all laughed him to scorn.

You're so ridiculous.

Ten years. You're so hilarious. Like a red heifer.

The red heifer. I mean.

The cornerstone. I remember being at lunch.

Like us.

Just berating this guy. And now it's 2019.

So.

And keep in mind. That Hal Lindsay's Late Great Planet Earth. Came out in 1970. So what is that? 34. Was it. Well. Almost. Almost 50. 50 years ago.

It's a long time ago.

Yeah.

It is. Yeah.

Almost 50 years ago. Of course he made. He says he didn't really make a prediction. But everyone knows he did.

Right.

That it would all come to an end before 1988. Because Israel became a nation again in 1948. This generation will not pass away. Generation is 40 years. You add 80.

You know.

40 to 88. You get 2000. You get 1988. The rapture takes place. Seven years before you got. 1981. Edgar Wisnett came out with a book in 1988. 88 Reasons Why the Raptures in 1988. I debated him. Did you know this?

I debated him on the radio. I didn't know that.

Do you have a. Is this available somewhere?

No. No.

I know that one isn't. But he said on that show. He says if I am wrong about this. The Bible is wrong.

Oh goodness.

Then of course. The next. He came out with another. He came out with another book. The next year.

Was it 89 Reasons?

Yeah.

He had failed to calculate.

That's hilarious.

When you go from BC to AD. That there's a year that you have to account for.

Oh yes. And so he.

He was a NASA scientist.

Yeah.

Oh wow. NASA engineer.

Oh wow.

Wow.

All right.

So let's do this.

I wanted to do a couple discussions today. One let's talk about the Olivet Discourse. The Great Tribulation. You are very, very helpful. You're a blessing in that area. Then I want to talk about the Kingdom of the Messiah.

What does the Bible teach us about the Kingdom of the Messiah? And the future of the world with the Kingdom of the Messiah. And then maybe just spend just a few moments responding to Brother Albert Moeller's comments on the briefing.

Where he talked a little bit about post-millennialism. Mentioned some things that I think could be. We could offer some helpful and loving correction in that space. But let's talk about the Great Tribulation.

The Olivet Discourse is in the Synoptics. It's in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21. And the Synoptics contain the Olivet Discourse. Which is the discourse that the Lord Jesus gave on the Mount of Olives.

When he departs from Jerusalem after condemning the Jewish leadership. And confronting them in the Gospel of Matthew. And so Jesus departs and leaves Jerusalem. And then is on the Mount of Olives. Which is, by the way, the same direction that Yahweh, his glory, leaves the Temple in the Old Testament.

Before its destruction in the Old Testament. He departs from there. Goes to the east to the Mount of Olives. And then that's the same course Jesus takes. After saying all the blood of the righteous is going to be upon them.

Jesus then gives the Olivet Discourse. And this is the famous discourse that is used universally with the cults. And all these other religions to abuse other human beings. To teach them that the end is near.

And that this generation is not going to pass away. And they always refer to their generation. Joseph Smith did this. Early Mormon prophets and apostles used the kind of language that's here. The Apocalyptics.

To say that Joseph Smith's generation wasn't going to pass away until Jesus returned in final judgment. It's been done over and over and over.

The Millerites. You're right. The Jehovah's Witnesses. And almost every cult in the 19th century was based upon some apocalyptic concept of the future. That was going to take place in their particular generation.

Which became easy for them to go and witness to people. And bring people into their cult. Is because they were saying look if you don't join with us. You're going to miss this eschatological event. You're going to go to hell.

And so that was one of their recruiting devices. And people still use it today. And they'll say something to the effect. Well we're leading people to Christ with this. They don't say this. People are going to get scared and they'll come into the kingdom.

But then after a while as people start reading the Bible. Things just don't seem to fit with that. And that's what happened to me. And then they start questioning not only the Olivet Discourse. But if Jesus was wrong about that.

Then what else was he wrong about? And they end up leaving the faith. Bart Ehrman is a perfect example of that. That's what happened to him.

Yes.

So in terms of the importance of this section. I'll just say quickly. You just mentioned it. Gary just mentioned the importance of this. Is that this section of Scripture. The Olivet Discourse. If we don't interpret it biblically in its context faithfully.

If we impose a paradigm upon it. Well then what are the consequences? Well I would say A. People will I think rightly say. Based upon the biblical standards that are given to us. Deuteronomy 18. 20 -22.

If you have a false prophecy. You're a false prophet. Well I mean people like Ehrman and Christopher Hitchens. Will look at that. And it's a chestnut argument for atheists. Well they'll say.

Well look.

Jesus gave a false prophecy.

Exactly.

He said to them. Those disciples. Not to some other disciples. To those disciples. That their generation wouldn't pass away. Until what?

All.

All.

Not some. All these things take place. So atheists will use this.

Christopher Hitchens did it.

In.

Yep. Collision. Collision.

Yes he did.

With Douglas Wilson. At Westminster Seminary. Brought up that very issue.

That's right.

And I've always said that. If it had been a dispensationalist. Who was answering Hitchens. They'd still be there.

That's right.

Trying to figure out what this means. But it took Douglas Wilson.

60 seconds.

You know. Maybe a little longer than that. And I would talk to Darren. Darren Doan. Who was the producer and director of it. And he said you could hear a pin drop. Because these were Westminster Seminary students.

Who hadn't heard the apologetic. That Jesus was referring to. That particular generation. And that particular generation alone.

Yes.

That's right.

So people will abandon the faith. Obviously we know that if you know. They went out from us. They were never really of us. But they'll abandon the faith. Their profession of faith. Because they'll see.

In a text like this. No Jesus did say to those disciples. That their generation would experience. And see all these things. Before they all had passed away. And many atheists use this as a chestnut argument.

But also I think just generally speaking. God calls us to be faithful with his word. And I think all of us. We need to come to a text like this. And interpret it in light of the biblical narrative. The whole story of the Bible.

This isn't a one off moment for the Lord Jesus. Where he comes in and starts tossing out some stuff. That was like never anticipated. Never expected. This is the Old Testament story actually unfolding.

The promises in the Old Testament. Of judgment and salvation. With the coming of the Messiah. And here is Jesus now in that story. Promising those covenant breakers. The judgment that was anticipated.

In fact in Matthew's Gospel. If you start reading it. You begin to see that the Olivet Discourse. Actually begins with chapter 21.

That's right.

Because Jesus is at the Mount of Olives. And everything from chapters 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. It is a unit. And when you see the whole thing. And Jesus lays out this indictment. Upon that generation. It just doesn't begin with Matthew 23, 36.

And Matthew 24, 34. Because the. His audience. In Matthew 23. I guess it's 21. Verse 45 says. When the chief priests and the Pharisees. Heard his parables. They understood that he was speaking about them.

And when they sought to seize him. They became afraid of the multitudes. Because they held him to be a prophet. So look. They understood he meant their generation. Jesus. Why didn't Jesus say. No, no I'm not talking about you.

This is something that's going to take place. In the way distant future. And that would have saved an argument. But Jesus was talking about that. They knew exactly who he was talking to.

That's right.

And so Jesus. You're exactly right. And an apology at church. That's exactly what I've done from 21 through 24. We're at thus far. Is shown that it is a complete unit here. Jesus you have to take this.

Jesus coming into Jerusalem. They're going to kill me. He comes and he has a second cleansing of the temple. And which was in the law of God. That's what the priest would have to do. First cleanse the come check the house.

Come back to see if there's disease. And take it apart stone off a stone. There's a lot there that's happening. And so Jesus comes cleanses the temple. Comes out curses the fig tree. It's a figure. It's a moment upon those covenant breakers.

Where Jesus is talking about them. They know he's talking about them. They even say it. They're getting angry because they know. It's them. And so Jesus then has the epic moment. Where he uses the serrated edge.

Against the religious leadership of Jerusalem. Where he calls them brood of vipers and all the rest. And this is where we get to 23. I'd like you to help us through here. 23 where Jesus says that all the blood of the righteous.

Will be upon that generation. And he says truly I say to you. All the blood will be upon this generation. Now Gary just help us with this. You've talked about this a lot in your books. But this is a big help to me.

When I was in Bible college there were ways. I remember being in eschatology class. And my professor. I won't mention his name. He was a good man. He was telling us that Ginnea. The word there. Referred to like the probably the Jewish race.

Or Jewish people. But what does it. What does the word mean.

Well it talks about the. You know the first use of a word. It's it's significant. That's not always the case. Because there are there are obviously multiple. Ways a word can be used. But Greek is a lot more precise.

Than our English English language. But look at. Matthew chapter 1 verse 17. Where the same Greek word is used in Matthew. One 17. You'll find in Matthew 23 36. And Matthew 24 34. And lots of other places.

Ginnea more than anyone does. Chapters 11 and 12. And elsewhere. But therefore all the generations. From Abraham to David. Are 14 generations. And from David to the deportation. To Babylon 14 generations.

From the deportation to Babylon. To the time of Christ 14 generations. And Schofield reference Bible. And a lot of even translations today. I'm using the New American Standard. And they'll put in the margin.

It'll say. They put generation in the text. And they say or race. It makes absolutely no sense. If you were to plug in race. In Matthew chapter 1 verse 17. You end up with. Therefore all the races. From Abraham to David.

Are 14 races. And from David to the deportation. To Babylon 14 races. And from the deporting of Babylon. To the time of Christ 14 races. It makes no sense. It means people born. And living at a particular period of time.

Right.

And there's no other generation. There's no other definition you can give it. It's so clear in all the Gospels. It is amazing to me. To find scholars trying to get around it.

Right.

And I think. I think we've won that battle. Very few people today would. Would try to say it means race. So they. So they moved. They moved to stage 2. And stage 2 is. Well it must mean. The generation that sees these signs.

Will not pass away until all these things take place. And so in order to get that. You have to get rid of the word this. Add the word the. The generation. And then add. That sees these signs.

There's the example of. Having a paradigm. An idea outside. Not letting the text simply speak. And having to say well. Let's impose this idea. Or these words on the text. To make it fit our paradigm.

I've been listening to a series of. Talks that Greg Bonson did. For one of our conferences. This was done in 1992. And it's a wonderful thing on Christian apologetics. And I think it's the. It's either the.

I think it's the fourth lecture. And he dealing with this very topic of. Facts are always interpreted facts. People have underlying assumptions. And when you present them with an argument. One of two things happens.

They were. They will reassess their position. And change their. Presuppositions. Or they'll hold on to their. Their position. And then they will create a new paradigm. In order to make it fit the facts.

As they see them.

Yes.

And so that's what's happened here. And what you know. The generation that sees these signs. Well all you have to do is look at verse 33. So this is right before verse 34.

It says.

Even so you too. When you audience reference here. When you see all these things. Recognize that he is near right at the door. So we're told. What audience is being addressed here. Yes it's them. Yes you see these things.

Now this is so can't mean race of people. It can't. It can't mean that generation that sees these signs. Because you have to. You have to take away a significant word. In order to make it work. And we're always critical of cults for doing that.

Jehovah's Witnesses. If you go to Colossians 1. Talking about Jesus as you know. He was before all things. And they put in brackets before all other things.

Yes.

So you know what we accuse the cults of. You know here we've got.

We're doing that.

Yeah.

Then someone else said well it's really. This nation will not pass away. Well there's a perfectly good word for the word nation. It's up in verse 14. And then the logic doesn't make any sense. If you see this race.

Which they mean the Jewish race. So it says the Jewish race will not pass away until all these things take place. When all these things take place. The Jewish race passes away.

Yeah.

But the whole dispensational system is about the permanence of the of the of the Jewish race.

Yeah.

So no matter which way you go with this. The the biblical interpretation is it's referring to the generation to whom Jesus is speaking.

Right.

And you're not left with another option.

No.

That's it.

And we shouldn't want one. And I think the important thing here is somebody if somebody is opening up right now listening to this thing. OK I'm open now I'll listen to what you're saying and I'm going to I'm going to assess my presuppositions.

What I want to encourage them to see is that if you take this as it stands and as it's stated that generation and Jesus is actually speaking to them about things that are going to happen to them. Guess what you get.

You get the vindication of the Messiah.

Exactly.

That all these things did happen exactly as Jesus said on time as promised. And it vindicates Christ as the Messiah as the promised Messiah. So it's a good thing to say let it speak as it's as it is and let it let let the text actually guide you into showing you that this generation means that generation and it took place on time and as planned so that you can see that Jesus is the promised Messiah.

Exactly. Yeah.

You can believe him on this.

Yeah.

And you can believe him on anything.

That's right.

This also helps. You go to Second Peter Chapter 3 people talk about oh you're just scoffing you know people say what Jesus is not coming back in our day and so forth and so on. And then Second Peter Chapter 3 Peter writes No.

This first of all that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking following after their own lusts and saying where is the promise of his coming for ever since the fathers fell asleep just as it was from the beginning of creation.

And people say you're a scoffer because Jesus made this prediction and you're scoffing about his coming. But what Peter is dealing with here is that generation was about to pass away. The last days is not the last our last days but the last days of the old covenant order is about to pass away.

That's right.

And these people were mocking Jesus's prophecy that he would come before their generation passed away because here we were probably maybe mid 60s. Temple still standing. In fact the temple is standing like it had never stood before.

I mean this is the this is the rebuilt temple that the Old Testament talks about. This is Herod's temple and my understanding and reading about history that this was a glorious glorious edifice. In fact Jesus makes makes that point I think in Mark and Luke's gospel.

I mean look in the disciples point. Look at this grand temple here. That's what they were mocking. He said this temple was going to be destroyed before our generation passed away. Look at it. How can you say that.

Well within a few years it was when not one stone was left upon another it was burned was burned down. And today you go to Israel. There's no indication that that temple every ever existed.

That's right. That's right.

And I think what's interesting too to point out and this was I think devastating to my own thinking on this issue based upon what I had believed and been taught before was that Jesus actually says here in 23 37.

Oh Jerusalem. Jerusalem the city that kills the prophets and stones those who were sent to it. How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers a brood under her wings and you were not willing.

He says and so he tells him about the coming destruction. But what's interesting here is he's speaking about Jerusalem and then as you get a little bit into the discourse here where he's talking about the Great Tribulation he says in verse 15 and 24.

So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel standing in the holy place let the reader understand then of those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. So this is obviously a local judgment that can be escaped.

Exactly.

On foot on foot on foot. It's interesting because if you actually compare this to Luke 21 Luke is a little more Gentile language here. He helps to sort of express what this is instead of saying the abomination of desolation.

He says when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies flee. And what's interesting too is that the early Christians did.

They did.

Yes they wrote. Tell us about that.

Well there was the. The Roman army had in fact surrounded Jerusalem and no one knows why. But they dispersed for whatever reason which then opened up a gateway out of the city.

Yeah.

And there were unfortunately there were a lot of people within the city thought that they were going to be rescued by the Messiah.

Right.

And it you know it never it never came. And this is another interesting point. Modern the modern day thought theory about the great tribulation. You know the rapture takes place. Christians are supposed to be taken off the earth and then the seven year period which is Daniel's 70th week.

That's a whole nother topic. But during that period we're told by the dispensationalist that two thirds of the Jews living in Israel are going to be slaughtered based upon Zachariah chapter 13 verses seven through eight.

Yeah.

And think about that. This is another Holocaust. Now this isn't this isn't my assessment of their view. This is their view. And I've got all the quotations from them from from you know how Lindsay and John Walvoord and all kinds of people about this particular position.

And yet these you know same Christians today are excited because they see here these the Jews are returning to Israel. And yet. If they really believe this they would be telling them to get out of Israel.

Jesus did. Jesus told him to leave the city and flee to the mountains. Jesus gave him 40 years to make this decision as to who they wanted to align with.

Yeah.

But today it's you know the Jews are moving to Israel and that's great. Let's go visit Israel. But there are the same people who are saying two thirds of the Jews are going to be slaughtered during the Great Tribulation.

That's right. So what.

Yeah.

Very good point. And definitely piques your curiosity in terms of the perspective that you bring to this. But if you if you look at the text there the Lord Jesus is actually telling people how they can escape this local judgment flee to the mountains.