July 29, 2020 Show with Roger Salter on “Do You Really Know God?”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 29th day of July 2020 and I'm always thrilled to have as a guest on my program my dear friend who is rector of St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, Roger Salter. Today we are going to be addressing a very urgent theme, a very important theme, a vital theme.

In fact, perhaps the theme involves the most important question you could be ever asked.

Do you really know God? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Roger Salter.

It's really good to be with you, Chris, and I trust that God will greatly bless interviewer and interviewee over these next couple of hours.

Amen. Well, before we go into the theme, as always, tell our listeners about St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. We've been very quiet during the lockdown period, and we have a considerable number of folk with chest problems and vulnerability to any infection that comes around this time of the year.

So we're hoping to resume again soon, but we keep in touch regularly. Well, to give a more detailed description,

I understand, knowing you for quite a while now, going back to the original launch of my show in 2005,

I know that St. Matthew's is an independent Anglican church. It is not a part of the

Episcopal Church USA, nor is it a part of any

Anglo -Catholic group. You are a thoroughly Protestant and confessionally reformed

Anglican church, adhering to the 39 Articles of Religion as a summary of your understanding of the

Scriptures. And would I be correct in that description? Absolutely, Chris.

And in the background, of course, is the Westminster Confession, which in some ways is a daughter of the 39

Articles via, oh, I've just got a mental block here, that wonderful bishop in Ireland, Usher.

He then extended the theology of the Articles in the Irish Articles, and the

Irish Articles were the sort of blueprint for the Westminster Confession. So, technically, the

Westminster Confession is an Anglican composition. And if you want to find out more about St Matthew's Anglican Church, you can go to stmanglican .weebly

.com. That's S -T -M for St Matthew's Anglican, at,

I'm sorry, .weebly .com. You can also go to rogersalter .com,

and salter is spelt not in the same way as the Old Testament songbook.

It is not with a P, it's just S -A -L -T -E -R, and that's rogersalter .com.

Well, I also wanted to let our listeners know that today we are giving a special tribute to the late

J .I. Packer. Some of you might not even be aware that Dr. Packer went home to be with the

Lord very recently. In fact, in this very month, he went home to be with the Lord, and it was just a matter of weeks ago, just a couple of weeks,

Dr. Packer was, in fact, it was only 12 days ago,

July 17, 2020 was the exact day that Dr. Packer entered into eternity with the

Christ and Savior and King that he loved so much, and so faithfully served, and wrote so passionately and articulately about.

But Dr. Packer has been a hero to many, especially in the Reformed faith, but not excluding others, and perhaps even more especially those who are evangelical

Anglicans, and even more especially to theologically Reformed Anglicans. Dr.

Packer was not without his flaws. It is a mystery to many of us that he could write so thoroughly well and biblically sound on the gospel and on the doctrines of sovereign grace, and yet have an ecumenical relationship with the

Church of Rome. That is still mystifying to me, but I do not discount this dear brother as a great hero of the faith, or something that I disagree with him over, even if it's that serious.

But perhaps you could pick up where I left off to give our listeners a summary of Dr.

J. I. Packer, and how you came to know him, and perhaps even especially about a book that is considered by many to be his greatest masterpiece, a book that has led not only many to Christ, but also many to a deeper and more biblically correct understanding of Christ, Knowing God.

Are you posing that question to me, Chris? Yes, I'm asking you to give a summary of who Dr. Packer was, and how you came to know him, and something about your affection towards his book,

Knowing God. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I was privileged to study at Trinity Theological College, the

Anglican College in Bristol in England, and Jim Packer and Alec Metier were both deans, co -deans of that particular college seminary, and we saw a little less of Jim because he was often touring the world on his lecture tours, but he was always an excellent lecturer and guide in our thinking.

I still got my complete set of his pink sheets that he used to hand out during his lectures, and always found him to be a very kind and gentle and a considerate man when you approached him on the personal level.

And each year we were assigned to the special care of one of the faculty members, and my second year at Trinity, I was in Dr.

Packer's fellowship group, so we heard a lot from him. We got to know him very well.

We shared meals with him. He was a very gracious man, and although when you first go to college, you find some of these well -known men a little intimidating because of their reputation, he never gave you that sense of discomfort when you were with him.

And you could go to him and talk over theological issues or personal problems, and he always gave you a great deal of attention, and then a very considered, thoughtful, and helpful word of advice.

So one is always feeling indebted to this man. And it's funny that I don't mean to sound in any way callous, but I don't grieve over him because I know that he is where his heart was most located with his

Savior, and now he's in a much closer relationship with the

Lord Jesus. So I rejoice for the inheritance that Jim has received in heaven.

Yes, praise God for that. In fact, he was certainly no spring chicken, so it is quite understandable how this would be a time in his life when he would be taken home to the

Lord, obviously served the Lord so faithfully for decades, and had written quite extensively, and has blessed many throughout the

Church globally with his mastery of the

Scriptures and those many volumes that he has written. In fact, he was 94 when the

Lord called him home to himself. And as I said, it is quite a mystery how

Dr. Packer had maintained an ecumenical relationship with the Church of Rome, knowing how well he knew and understood and could so powerfully declare the doctrines of sovereign grace and the theology of the

Reformation, which we would believe to be biblical theology, and have that kind of an ecumenical mindset.

But as I said, I'm not going to discount a giant of the faith, a hero of the faith, merely because of an area of his life with which

I had great disagreement. Do you have anything to comment about what I just said? I think,

Jim, if there's any way in which you could say, and I'm not saying I necessarily pose this as a truth, but Jim was always extremely charitable to everyone.

And he made allowances for inadequacy in thought and religious conviction just purely out of,

I think, a tenderness towards others. And there's always been within the

Catholic Church, and I don't say it's the dominant strain of thought, but it's always had those within it who lean towards Augustine and emphasize the doctrines of grace, even sometimes in those conditions within the

Church of Rome. Augustine is still, to some extent, the doctor of grace for a number of Catholic thinkers who don't necessarily comply with the official view or the disciplines of the

Church, but hold them dearly in their hearts. And that's what I think he detected in certain representatives of the

Church of Rome. Yeah, I'm probably butchering this slogan, but I have heard it said about Augustine that the

Reformation was a victory of Augustine's soteriology over his ecclesiology.

Is that something close to what has been said about him, or about the Reformation? I think that's a very accurate thing to say about the way in which

Augustine is received by Protestants and Catholics. In fact, he was a

Church father before. I mean, obviously Roman Catholics will object vociferously to this, but we who have some acquaintance with Church history, who are heirs of the

Reformation, would understand Augustine to be a great father and teacher of the faith before there was any real such thing as a full -blown

Roman Catholic Church. Yes, you certainly can't call him a Roman Catholic, and there are many ways in which the

Catholic Church, as it has continued, are out of sync with Augustine's thought even on ecclesiastical and sacramental matters.

So he represented the Catholic Church in terms of the universal

Church, but not of the papistic Church. Yes, so we owe a great debt to the late

Dr. Packer, and I had the privilege of seeing him preach live in person on one occasion.

I didn't have the privilege to shake his hand or meet him face -to -face, but I was there very close to the front row when he was preaching years ago at the

Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology at its original location, 10th

Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where the late Dr.

James Montgomery Boyce was the pastor. That was during some of my formative years in the

Christian faith, and it was somewhere, I don't know the exact date, somebody listening might know exactly when

Dr. Packer preached at that conference. He may have preached there more than once, I only saw him once, but it was somewhere between the late 1980s and early 1990s,

I know that for certain. But I am blessed to have come to discover his writings, and of course, as I keep repeating,

Knowing God is considered by many to be his masterpiece, perhaps his magnum opus,

I don't know if that would be a correct way of describing it, but do you have anything to say about Knowing God?

Yes, I mean, I've got three copies of it myself, one for notes, one for reading, and one to keep in mint condition, and I have several that I would like to distribute when it seems the right thing to do, but I love his four -volume collection of shorter pieces, and I think, you know,

Jim was a jazz lover, and I see him being like Duke Ellington, that the shorter pieces are much better and more enthralling than perhaps the major works.

We always thought he would produce a systematic theology, and probably a good editor could do that posthumously for him, but I think he was brilliant, and these four volumes, which

I have on my shelf, were published in England, I think by Paternoster, I'm not quite sure, they are superb, and right on target, and I also cherish the pink sheets, as I say, they were legendary at Trinity College, every lecture you got at least one, if not four, and all rodeoed on those old photocopies, not photocopies, you know, the ancient things they used to use, the blotches, and all sorts of blurs all over the sheet, but I still treasure those, because they came from his heart, and they were addressed to his students, and there was a warmth to them, as well, you know, as very fine instruction.

Amen. Well, I want to give our listeners our email address, if they have any questions, whether they agree with what we are discussing today, whether they vehemently disagree, whether you are a

Christian or not, we would love to hear from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Today, as I said at the outset of the program, we are posing to you, the listener, the most vital question that you could possibly hear.

Of course, equally as important questions could be posed with different wording, but this really boils down to the essence of the most important thing that you could be asked, do you really know

God? And we hope to hear from you with a question, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you're not a

Christian and you don't feel comfortable drawing attention to your identity by asking a question about the

Christian faith publicly, I understand that, but whatever the issue is, if it's personal and private, we will grant you your request to remain anonymous, but please, if it's not personal and private, a general question on doctrine, theology, etc.,

please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence. Well, this is an important question because you have many people who are sadly deceived into thinking they really do know

God. In fact, we have a chilling example in,

I believe it's Matthew chapter 7, if I'm not correct, when there are those who are standing before Christ as their judge after their deaths on that great and solemn and for some terrifying day, when no matter what they may say in defense of themselves and about their relationship to God, obviously if they're being cast into hell, their confession and their description of their relationship with God is false because they would otherwise not be going to heaven,

I mean, they would not be going to hell, I'm sorry. But when we have those people who perform miracles in the name of Jesus, who even cast out demons, and Jesus says, you know, begone you workers of unrighteousness,

I never knew you, that's a pretty frightening thing to even think about.

But this is true, is it not, that there are many people who are convinced that they are on the way to heaven, that they are safe and secure, who really believe that they know

God and they don't really know God, do they? That's quite the case, and it's a chilling thing to think about,

Chris. There was a book published here in Birmingham or Alabama about 10 years ago, and the foreword was by John MacArthur, and he was saying how, particularly in an area like the

Bible Belt where there's a preponderance of people, it's decreasing, but a lot of people have associations with churches, and he was saying how easy it is for people to deceive themselves.

Is this the Gospel According to Jesus you're speaking of? It could well be. It was an

Alabamian author, I think a Presbyterian. Oh, I thought you were saying John MacArthur wrote the book,

I apologize. He wrote the foreword, Chris. Oh, okay. And he was warning readers that they would need to read such a book, because there is, as you mentioned, a tendency, or at least a possibility, for many professing

Christians not to be the authentic article, and we know in John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress that there is a character who arrives at the heavenly gate and is dismissed immediately to the place of the lost, and I think it's something that Peter exhorts us in his letter to make our calling and election sure.

And in many ways, if I can excuse myself for a moment for referring to self, it's something

I often think about if I wake in the middle of the night with the reality of death and being summoned, as it were, on my own, solo, singly before God, without any other support.

What if I had deceived myself? What if I had misread my condition?

And I know ultimately all you can do is place your trust in the shed blood of Christ, but you know, at times you think, what if this does happen to people you know and love, who consider themselves to be citizens of the kingdom, but for some reason or other have not checked out the genuineness of their faith and arrived at a valid assurance?

And so I was moved by that foreword I read by John MacArthur, and I often think about Peter summoning us to be sure of our election in Christ by looking to Christ, and that is all we can do for our redemption and salvation, look to the crucified.

But, you know, I think it's a question that everybody ought to ask. Unbeliever, seeker, even professed

Christian, and sometimes very confident Christians, because there can be a false assurance.

We can deceive ourselves. So it comes from addressing oneself, it comes from considering the condition of those to whom you minister.

Is the word searching enough to unburden somebody of a false confidence?

Whitfield speaks about that a lot in his ministry in the 18th century, that people can have a false notion of their relationship to Christ, and even people who preach the gospel.

You know, they can be technically correct theologically, but not necessarily in communion with Christ himself.

And, you know, Whitfield says that as opposed to a formal knowledge of religion, we must know a felt

Christ, a Christ who touches our emotions, our feelings, as well as informs the mind.

And it's not to say that feelings should dominate or govern our relationship with God, but they should certainly be involved if they arise from the truth of God's word.

So that's a worry of mine personally, Chris. You know, do

I decide in my favor because of my tendency to want the best and to want spiritual comfort for oneself?

And is it true for other people sometimes when you feel that a lot of chatter goes on in church circles, but it seems to be shallow?

There isn't a depth of understanding and a reverence and a capturing of reality, that the word becomes too familiar, we have a sort of chatty relationship with God, but not a heartfelt one.

Yes, there are people who know that we who are theologically reformed,

Calvinists, if you will, believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace, who will say and confront us when we have a conversation about the narrow way, the narrow way to heaven and eternity with Christ, they will say, you know, you reformed people do a lot of talking about grace, you claim that grace is a primary theme in your religion.

And yet, they would say that their understanding of grace is far greater and deeper because God in his grace will overlook so much about what we believe and understand about him.

And while I think you and I would agree with that to a point, they would extend that so far into saying that even as the

Roman Catholic catechism teaches that Muslims adore the same true

God, the same one true God that they do as Catholics, and they would include others in that group, they would even dare to call, and I'm speaking of the more ecumenist modern

Catholic who might even include agnostics and atheists in the group of those who will be with them in heaven.

They are sometimes called anonymous Christians. They are given a pass because people are living according to the light they have without any conscious understanding, faith in or trust in or love for Jesus Christ specifically.

And many think that is the real beauty of grace.

That is the real depth and height and power of grace. But isn't that grace misdefined and actually distorted and twisted into a point where it is teaching damnable heresy?

Yes, it's a matter of presumption and it's not established from Scripture, Chris.

And there's actually an article in the Anglican prayer book that refutes that particular point of view.

It has to be a definite relationship with Christ, sincere repentance, and true faith.

And I think that there is this tendency which isn't generous. It's very misleading.

It's a damnable lie that people are told just to depend on this general sort of mercy or it's not even mercy, just this indulgence of God towards sin.

And as you know, it's very popular. I find in contemporary

Anglicanism, if it's not necessarily always discernible, the undercurrent of universalism.

And that is extremely dangerous. Yes, and of course you and I would not be on the opposite extreme of that.

We do not have some kind of rigid understanding of only five -point Calvinists entering into heaven.

There are, unfortunately, some, and I think that there are a tiny minority who do share that, do have that understanding of the importance of being meticulous on every jot and tittle of theology in order to be saved.

And we would reject that. We would believe that there are many who trust in the finished work of Christ, who believe in his deity, and believe in his death, burial, and resurrection, and ascension, and that he is seated in the right hand of the

Father. They believe in his sinless perfectionism and the pillars of the faith, and yet, sadly, they don't understand or believe in or sometimes even reject the doctrines we call the doctrines of sovereign grace or reformed theology.

But we would say that there are many in their ranks who are in heaven in spite of their ignorance.

So I'm sure you would agree with me on that point, that we are not some kind of sectarian, cultic group of folks who believe that there's going to be an in -depth theological quiz or something at the judgment seat where you better get every jot and tittle correct before you're let into the kingdom of heaven, before you're let through the pearly gates and enter into eternity with Christ.

That's absolutely right. I think your confidence is in Christ as your only hope for deliverance from sin and for the gift of eternal life.

It's that confidence in Christ, that looking to him, even though there may be a considerable amount of ignorance theologically.

But I regard Arminianism, and I think in this case, even among reformed folk,

I may be an exception, but I think Arminianism is a dangerous heresy, not an allowable error of thought.

I think it's misleading if you boil it down to its essence, but fortunately

I don't think people who have sincere repentance and true faith would really subscribe to it if things were spelled out to them.

They know, and in their prayer life, they are dependent on Christ alone. It's a lack of discernment and adequate information.

And I've just found that article, Chris, that refers to eternal salvation only by the name of Christ.

It's Article 18 in the Book of Common Prayer, and it says,

They also are to be had accursed, that presume to say that every man shall be saved by the law or sect which he professeth, so that he be diligent to frame his life according to that law in the light of nature.

For Holy Scripture doth set out unto us only the name of Jesus Christ, whereby men must be saved.

Well, we're going to our, and by the way, amen and amen. We're going to our first break right now, and Roger, I just forwarded you a question from Bruce in Birmingham, Alabama.

And so this way, since it's fairly lengthy, you'll be able to read it. And when we come back from the break,

I will ask you the question on the air. And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And please, as always, give us, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

If it's a general question, please give us at least your first name, city and state of residence and country of residence if you live outside the

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson. He just tuned us in, our guest today for the whole program is

Pastor Roger Salter who is rector at St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

A confessionally Protestant and Reformed Anglican Assembly independent and thoroughly opposed to both the leftist apostate wing of Episcopalianism and Anglicanism and also the

Anglo -Catholic wing, also known as the Tractarian Movement and the

Puseites and so on. If you have a question, we are discussing

Do You Really Know God? And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

Before we go to Bruce in Alabama's question, I did want you to clarify something you were discussing before the break.

You view Arminianism to be a heresy, but I gather from your comment that you believe that those that are not logically consistent with that view in the end results of that logical, consistent understanding of that theology that they would be expected to be in heaven with us and that, as J .I.

Packer once said himself, that all Christians are Calvinists on their knees because many who are our brethren in Christ who are among the

Evangelical Arminians, when they are praying to the Lord, they are giving Him full authority over their lives and the lives of their loved ones.

They are giving 100 % of the credit of their salvation to Christ alone and to the

Triune Godhead as well as the salvation of anybody that they know. They are not taking credit for themselves and so on when they are in prayer.

So, am I getting basically the concept of what you were discussing here, what you were discussing before the break? Are you there,

Roger? Well, it seems that we've lost Roger. I'm going to have to go to another break.

I don't know where Roger is, but we're going to have to find out what happened to Roger and hopefully he'll call us back.

I am going to go to one commercial break and perhaps he will... Oh, here he is calling us back.

Roger, are you there? Hello, Roger, are you there?

I'm not sure why Roger is not able to speak. Can you hear us?

Can you hear me? Now I can, yes. Great, that's grand. Okay, I don't know if you heard anything

I said. I did, I did. Yes. So, could you answer that question?

Yes. I think that those, as we say,

Armenians who trust wholly in Christ and they either have a misunderstanding or a lack of true understanding of the fact that salvation is all of the

Lord from beginning to end and, as you say, Armenians who pray to God in total dependence upon him could not do that if they did not believe that God was sovereign over human hearts because you couldn't pray for somebody else's conversion.

But I think it's true to say that some people either have had caricatures of what the

Reformed faith is, have been misinformed about it, or simply drawn the wrong conclusions from its principles.

But I stand by the fact that Armenianism taking to its logical conclusion if people really believed that I think it would be a forfeiture of salvation because the work of salvation is not shared between God and man.

And I think that people's faith and heart are better than their brains when it comes to trust in the

Lord and grasping Christ. I don't know that I can be more specific or more full in my reply,

Chris. I personally, when I look at Armenianism, I find it an abomination.

It really upsets me to think that anybody would want to place any trust in themselves.

I wouldn't want a salvation that wasn't entirely a gift gratis, free from God, because that's where he gains his glory.

And one likes to see his glory in the fullness of his electing love. So, you know, if there were a choice as to whether we had a matter of cooperation between God and the human will,

I would deplore that. I know where my will would take me. I know where it was taking me.

And so I intensely dislike Armenianism, but I have

Armenian friends whom I know know the Lord. And let's go to Bruce's question from Birmingham, Alabama.

And Bruce says, Hi, Chris and Roger, thank you for this program and sharing thoughts on this critical topic.

Is it possible to know God and still not have faith in him?

Reference the parable of the seed on road rocks from bushes,

I'm sorry, thorn bushes, fertile soil, which I take to mean an analogy for the state of one's heart as able to receive the gift of faith in Jesus.

Yes. So could all those hearts know God but not have faith in Jesus and love him per the fertile heart?

Best regards and keep charging, Bruce from Birmingham. Yeah, I think that really depends on how you define know.

I think in the theme of our show today, do you really know God? We are speaking about the know that involves a familial intimacy that extends infinitely beyond merely a psychological or intellectual understanding.

Because if that kind of belief is the belief that our listener is referring to, that alone cannot save anybody as the epistle of James clearly states.

But if you could answer Bruce's question on your own. Well, that term know scripturally means a union with, a joining with, and the analogy for us as human beings is the relationship of marriage.

It's a profound, deep, intimate union, a personal union with God.

Knowing him in terms of love and trust and reverence, it's the same kind of thing, you know, the

Hebrew word is the same word that is used for sexual intimacy between a man and a woman.

I'm in the garden with Adam and Eve. Adam knew Eve. Yes, yes,

I mean, humanly speaking, marriage is the closest possible relationship we can have.

And we are married to Christ by faith and repentance. We have that deep intimacy with him.

It is personal, it is profound, it is genuine, and it goes beyond words and concepts and notions.

People can have notions about God. They can have what

I would call a sort of shadowy kind of conception of God, but they don't know him personally.

And that's where I come back to Whitefield's exhortation to know a felt

Christ, that when you relate to God through Christ, which is the only way of we sinners being able to relate to him, by the power of the

Holy Spirit, which is the only ability we have to relate to God, there are those indications within the heart that that relationship is more than just intellectual or notional.

And I turn to article 17 of the prayer book and just quote one of the paragraphs.

If I may, Chris, and this is what good old Cranmer and the early

Anglican reformers believed, it says, as the godly consideration of predestination and our election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant and unspeakable comfort to godly persons and such as feel in themselves the working of the spirit of Christ.

That is sensing both the witness of the spirit and the things that he has wrought within us that indicate a new life, a change, mortifying the works of the flesh and their earthly members.

And this is the phrase that I really love. And growing up their mind to high and heavenly things as well as because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God.

And so there is the witness of the spirit and there is the witness of our own longing for Christ.

In fact, if you could pick up right where you left off about the witness of the spirit and the witness of our own longing to Christ because we have to go to our midway break right now.

And folks, please be patient. This is a longer than normal break. It is a break that is extended in length every day because Grace Life Radio who airs this program twice daily in Lake City, Florida they require of us this longer break in the middle because the

FCC requires of them to localize their programming to Lake City, Florida and therefore in the middle of our show they air their own public service announcements and other things local to Lake City while we air our globally heard commercials.

So please use this time wisely and please write down as much of the information for as many of our advertisers as you can that they provide in their ads so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them whenever possible.

And also in addition to that send in questions to Roger Salter chrisarnson at gmail .com

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So remember to do that as much as possible. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Roger Salter right after these messages from our sponsors.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Here's what Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, had to say about Iron Shop and Zion Radio recently.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Shop and Zion Radio airing live Monday through Friday 4 to 6 p .m.

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Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, and remember folks, if you love the show, please try to patronize

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They are a key, a primary sponsor of this program. That's Solid -Ground -Books .com

and I know that my guest today, Roger Salter has a great love for Solid Ground Christian Books and its founder,

Mike Gaydosh. Is that not true, Roger? Absolutely, Chris. I've got quite a few of the titles.

I treasure them and reread them when I can. They're beautiful publications.

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Please purchase as many books as you can, and why not even start stocking up for the

Christmas holidays so that you can beat the rush and have many of your gifts already purchased and waiting to be delivered either through the mail or in person when you fellowship with those you love during the

Christmas season. Before we return to Roger and our discussion on Do You Really Know God?,

I just have a couple of more important announcements to make. First of all, Tuesday of next week, Phil Johnson returns to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

He is the executive director of the aforementioned John MacArthur's ministry,

Grace TU, and he is going to be discussing in further details the stance that Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California has taken to reopen for full services in spite of the threats by the governor of California to have the power, the electricity cut in the building there at Grace Community Church.

They did not do that last Sunday, meaning the government did not cut the power, but who knows what will happen this

Lord's Day, but we are going to have Phil Johnson give us more details on why they are taking a stance like this.

There are many Christians, even in the same theological camp as Phil and Grace Community Church, that are taking a polar opposite view of this.

They are stating, even some on this program have stated that we must obey governing authorities even if they are evil, unless they are insisting that we commit sin, and we will perhaps find out why

Grace Community Church has this position of defying the government authorities.

Perhaps they believe that a restriction on being open for worship is compelling them to commit sin when it is a prolonged situation, but we will find out more this

Tuesday. Also, another person involved with Grace2U, the media ministry of John McArthur, Darrell Bernard Harrison, he is going to be joining us on Wednesday, the very next day, along with his podcast co -host,

Virgil Walker, and they are going to be discussing all types of things, the Christian response to Black Lives Matter and other matters.

So we hope that you listen then as well. In fact, listen every day to this program. It's on every day, and we always have, in my opinion, top shelf guests and fascinating topics that every

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In fact, I keep repeating that there's one woman in Austin, Texas, who beat all donation records from a private individual as opposed to a church or a ministry or a business.

She has broken all donation records. I hope to meet her in person one day soon. But I thank all of you who give and who especially regularly give, and no matter what the amount is that you give.

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.com You can also advertise with us as long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what we believe.

Send an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

Also, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, and you're having a hard time finding one near you,

I can help you, God willing. I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and may be able to help you.

I just helped a woman, a very happy woman, who is a new resident after moving to Richland Center.

And all of a sudden the state flew out of my head.

But Richland Center, there is a Grace Life Church in Richland Center.

And this woman was a new resident there. She was not aware of its existence.

And I let her know about this. It's Wisconsin, I'm sorry. Richland Center, Wisconsin.

So she is very happy and she's looking forward to visiting Grace Life Church of Richland Center, Wisconsin this

Sunday. So send me an email if you need help. chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

Put any of your church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Roger Salter on the vital question

Do you really know God? chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. And Roger, right before the break I had to interrupt you mid -sentence.

You were answering the question of Bruce in Birmingham, Alabama on can it be possible for somebody to know

God but not have faith in him. And I believe you were quoting from the Book of Common Prayer.

If I'm not mistaken, I could be wrong because a lot was going on during the commercial break that kind of distracted you.

But if you could, pick up where you left off. Yes, I mean as a sort of quick answer to Bruce, you couldn't know

God without faith. And that's his gift, which enables us to enter into a union with him through Christ by the enabling grace of the

Holy Spirit. And of course in the biblical sense, the word know means to enjoy union with God.

Not just have notions about him or speculations. Or even be a genius who is a brilliant theological and biblical scholar.

There are many among those ranks who are as lost as the drug dealer and the prostitute and the serial killer.

Hello Roger? Are you there? Yes, Chris. So I'm sorry

I interrupted you. Continue. Oh, that's alright. That's alright. Any interruption is welcome.

By the way, could I ask a question, Chris? Was the contemporary Anglican you were thinking of Tom Isham?

Exactly, yes. Well, his two biographies I think are priceless.

Charles McElveen, the American Bishop, and Augustus Toplady, the great preacher of the great awakening in the 18th century.

Those two men are just such examples to us of really firm scriptural faith and the exaltation of Christ as Savior and Lord.

They're marvelous books, and of course Mike Gaidosh has published them and one can't commend them enough.

That's solid -ground -books .com solid -ground -books .com You order those books and if you are putting a name in the search engine there,

Isham is the last name of Thomas Garrett Isham Isham, I'm sorry.

Isham and that should bring you up to a list of the books that Solid Ground Christian Books publishes by Brother Isham, who is a fellow

Anglican, and I say fellow in the sense of with our guest,

Roger Salter. I continue to be a dedicated and thoroughly baptistic, reformed individual, but I love my

Anglican brethren. I don't know if you saw it, I have so many phone numbers for you that I don't know if I was texting you at the right cell phone number, but I did send you another question.

By the way, Bruce, please send me your full mailing address in Birmingham, Alabama, because you have won a free copy of Knowing God by J .I.

Packer. Thanks to our generous friends at InterVarsity Press.

Their website is IV Press. I'm sorry, this font is so small, and I'm going so blind, that I have to enlarge the website, because I can't even read this.

If you want more information about InterVarsity Press, go to ivpress .com

ivpress .com and Google J .I.

Packer and you will have all the things that they publish by him.

In fact, I meant to say, put his name in a search engine at the

IV Press website, J .I. Packer, and I'm actually asking you, even if you go to ivpress .com

to find out more information about this book, that you order it from cvbbs .com

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cvbbs .com. They are a sponsor of this show, and it doesn't hurt

InterVarsity Press in the slightest bit if you purchase the book from our sponsor, cvbbs .com,

because they have to purchase the books from InterVarsity Press. So, please go to cvbbs .com

and they may already have that book in stock anyway, because it's such a classic. Now, I did send you a question from another listener, as I was saying before, just a few moments ago.

Michael in Amityville, Long Island, New York. And, I have to, once again,

I don't know where his question went. I had it right in front of me. Now I have to enlarge it again, because of the font size being microscopic.

So, I'm doing that right now. And, actually, Michael in Amityville, Long Island, has a number of questions here, and since he is a first -time questioner,

I am going to read them all. First of all, how often do you observe

Holy Communion? On the second and fourth

Sundays of the month. Okay. First and third. What prayer book are you using?

It's the modern version of 1662 from the Prayer Book Preservation Society here in the

U .S. And do you feel comfortable being independent without the oversight of a bishop?

Well, when I came to St. Matthew's, it was a member of the continuing movement, and it had been through a couple of affiliations in that particular, you know, type of Anglicanism.

I, we were with AMIA, that is the Anglican Mission in America, and I'll be frank,

I'm probably unwise in saying this, but I was told at one time that my theology was too high, and that is the 39

Articles, and when things changed and AMIA was greatly reduced,

I mean it virtually disappeared from the scene, I have not joined any other affiliation because I'm not happy with the basis of their teaching on the

Word of God. They just simply do not, to my mind, indicate that the

Word of God is our inspired, infallible authority, and we derive all of our teaching concerning God, the

Gospel, and the Christian life from Holy Scripture fundamentally, which is not to say we don't learn from godly men and godly traditions, but yes, it's unusual for an

Anglican church to be independent, but I also have to say, and I've ministered in England for a number of years,

I knew bishops who were very cordial and polite, but I didn't know any that upheld the theology of the

Articles, and so I don't particularly subscribe to the value of bishops.

Teaching elders, yes, but you know, look at what bishops have done to the

Episcopal Church in the U .S., and I had a very wise counselor in England who said, never trust a bishop or anyone above a canon, and I don't even trust the canon now.

That's somebody who participates in the government of a cathedral, they're usually a parish priest or minister, but, you know, we're right down to the bone in Anglicanism with this whole issue of absolute loyalty to the

Word of God, which doesn't mean we're infallible, and it doesn't mean that we're absolutely right in everything, but at least that is the divine source to which we go, for divine wisdom as the

Holy Spirit illuminates our minds. And lastly, what is the brief history behind St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama? British history? No, what is the brief history?

What is a brief history? Oh, gosh. I mean, I came to a church that was mixed with Anglo -Catholics, people who had never even looked to the back of their prayer book to realize that there were 39 articles.

When I started preaching from the 39 articles, I was asked, where did I get this teaching from?

And these are people who were cradle Episcopalians. So we're living in a situation where there's a dearth of truth and loyalty to the

Word of God and to those reliable traditions that derive from the

Word of God. You know, the truth of God, I hope I'm not being too dramatic, but loyalty to the

Word of God is depleted tremendously in all the mainline denominations.

Yes, I could give a hearty amen to everything that you just said.

I think, unfortunately, and this is not exclusive to Anglicans, but there are those that become so enamored with a particular denomination, possibly due to its liturgy, its form of worship, its music, its history and historical heroes.

They get so enamored with that that they would rather see somebody under the oversight or submitting to the bishops of that denomination, even if they happen to be apostates.

You know what I'm saying? They're so committed to the continuance of the relevance of bishops in an apostolic succession or whatever the case is according to the denomination, that they have that cloud of the most important things of all.

Absolutely. I mean, we define the apostolic succession as the Word of God and those who preach it.

Amen. It's not something magically handed on by touching people's heads down through the centuries.

And it's very misleading. And some of these churches that call themselves

Anglican seem to have more bishops than members. I mean, it's ridiculous. Yeah, it's like the church where nearly everybody who's a member there is a pastor of something.

That's right. You have the pastor of the coat room, you have the pastor of lunch fellowship, you know, pastor of lawn maintenance.

You go on and on. By the way, Mike, in Amityville, Long Island, my hometown where I was born, raised and lived for most of my life, you have won also a free copy of Knowing God.

So make sure that you give me your full mailing address in Amityville, Long Island, New York.

So cvbbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that out to you once again, thanks to the generosity of InterVarsity Press.

So thanks for contributing your questions today. I think that we have to return to now our theme.

It's such a vital theme. Please explain in further depth why you emphasize the word really in the question

Do you really know God? Because I think

I think that it's possible for human beings to deceive themselves, particularly in matters of religion, and even in the

Christian faith, that people can think somehow they've made their peace with God and established a union with Him, but it's superficial.

It doesn't have depth and understanding. As I said earlier on, it's a matter of ecclesiastical or church chattering, and using the

Bible in a very cheap and superficial way. Chris, that really bothers me because I have done that and still do it, that we do not approach the

Word of God with the reverence and desire for depth and the teaching of the

Spirit that we need, and paying attention to Scripture and going deep into Scripture.

We have received from the English Reformation a beautiful prayer, what we call a colic because it's a summary prayer for Bible Sunday.

Could I read it? Of course. I think it's one of the most beautiful prayers in the

Anglican heritage. It says, Blessed Lord, who has caused all holy

Scriptures to be written for our learning. I don't think people come to the Bible for learning so much as coziness and comfort and the affirmation of what their ideas are so that they're very selective about what they read in the

Bible. Grant that we may in such ways hear them, read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest them.

I don't think that that's common in the church anymore. To inwardly digest the

Word of God. To linger over it. Sometimes you may want to just read a text for a week because it's so rich and deep and profound.

It's the Word of God, and it needs to be heard reverently and to linger over the language of Scripture and the teaching of Scripture to grasp its meaning.

That by patience and comfort of Thy Holy Word it takes patience to know

Scripture and to re -read it and re -read it, not just once or twice and then quote text aimlessly.

We may embrace and ever hold fast the blessed hope of everlasting life which

Thou hast given us in our Saviour Jesus Christ. And as Augustine says, if we don't know

Scripture, we don't know Christ. And the only way we discover the glory and the essential work of Christ and the beauty of His person and the effectualness of His work is to go to Scripture and discern

Him somehow or other on every page either in terms of promise or fulfillment or what the cost to us occurs from His absence in our lives and understanding.

It's Christ. It's Christ's book. And He's the author of it as Peter tells us.

It's the Spirit of Christ who inspired the prophets. And it's the Spirit of Christ who inspired the apostles.

We are holding, I'm not talking about bibliolatry that we just like the literal, you know, physical book.

We love it because of its content. And as Luther said in his Christmas sermon, the

Bible is the cradle in which we find Christ. And what

I love, if I could just do two more things quickly, Chris, very briefly, in Whitfield's journals, he's writing and he says,

I feel, I feel Christ's love. I can no more doubt my interest in Him than I can of the shining of the sun at noonday.

And I think this is part of the witness of the Spirit, that we are caught up in our affection for the

Word of God, and our regard for it, and our treasuring of it, and if God enables us, our obedience to it.

And then this is another quick word from one of Whitfield's letters, plead His promises, be much in secret prayer, and never give

God rest till you find, till your soul is filled with all

His fullness. I'm reading from a book where the F's are S's and vice versa, but that's

His intention that when you go to Scripture, you're going for a rendezvous with the

Lord Jesus. And it's not just something to be read and quoted casually, or in a way that pleases us.

Oftentimes, Christian will rub us, the Bible will rub us raw with conviction of sin, and our folly, and our lack of reverence and regard for God.

But it's the Word of Christ and there's nothing better in all this earth than that way in which we know

Christ through His Word, and the way we treat the Word is really on this earth how we treat

God. Excellent. We have an anonymous listener who asks,

I know pastors who have told me personally that if I ever question my own salvation, it is a sign that I am not saved.

Are these pastors speaking truthfully from the Word of God? Well, no.

And I'm saying that briefly and shortly. I'd rather be more expansive and polite. All I can say to you is that we are told in Scripture to make our calling and election sure, to be sure that our faith is genuine, not that we're examining ourselves or depending on our faith, but that our faith is lodged in the one person we can trust, and that is the

Lord Jesus Christ. And there's a lovely sermon by Charles Spurgeon who's saying some of these people who have such wonderful and unfailing assurance need to get a bit of lack of assurance just to get them square with God and to realize that they're not as safe in their own self -reliance and their own confession of Christ as they may think.

So there's a lot to be said for before God wanting

Him to search our hearts and saying, Am I genuine, Lord, before you?

Am I genuine before you? And if I'm not, you can make me such that I never will be unless you work in my heart and create that humility and that confidence and that penitence within me, a contrite heart that is humble before God and filled with the knowledge of His own self -revelation.

Perhaps you could further explain and clarify, you just said, not that you mean we should examine ourselves.

I didn't quite understand that because I thought that the Bible told us to examine ourselves, perhaps even especially when we partake of the

Lord's Supper and things like that. I didn't mean that in the sense, Chris, that we shouldn't examine ourselves, but we shouldn't put confidence in ourselves.

I remember once, you know, in our Anglican Ordination Service, we are asked, do we believe that God has called us?

And we say, I trust so, because it's possible that people can misinterpret the will of God and that they, in a selfish way that they can't discover, even at an almost subconscious level, what they're doing is fulfilling their own carnal desires, rather than a holy desire that has been, that emerges from the work of the

Holy Spirit. And I think sometimes there are people who have an overconfidence because they've never really had their helplessness and sinfulness disclosed to them.

And I don't know if this person is still alive, but when I came to America, one person came to me and said, today's a great day.

This is the anniversary of the day I let God save me. And I was appalled. The day that he let

God save him. Yes. I was shocked. And this was a leading voice in the church.

And if he's still around, every blessing, my friend. But, you know, there is a false assurance.

We know that. It's apparent in Scripture. It's apparent in experience. And, again, while I'm going back to this theme, do you really know

God? I know the tendency of human nature to favor itself.

To be generous to itself. To be over -trusting in its own outlook, its own convictions, its own attitudes.

And as Whitfield says, because it comes to mind again, when we come to God, we need to be taken out of ourselves.

We're not special in relation to everybody else. We are saved by grace alone.

We have no claim upon God, but he's invited us to call upon him for his mercy.

And I really don't think, and I could be wrong here, Chris, but I don't think that people examine themselves enough.

Amen. The fruit of the Spirit, obviously we won't recognize a lot of it or we'd get arrogant and proud, but there are fruits of the

Spirit that we can become aware of, like these high thoughts of God, these desires to know him.

And I remember R .C. Sproul saying, there is no one unregenerate who can claim factually that they love

Jesus. Right. And, of course, asking the question, am

I saved? Am I really saved? Could mean that the person is lost.

It just doesn't necessarily mean that. And it's a far better thing for a lost person to be questioning their salvation than to be convinced of it.

Yes. I mean, there are people in the sects and what do you call them, these various other groups that are off the mainstream

Christian faith who are absolutely convinced that they're right with God. There are a lot of unbelievers are.

You get this sort of myth that somebody dies and you say, oh, I'll know I'll meet them again. You don't, unless they're in Christ.

And I'm having problems with my memory lately, Chris. I'm in my eighth decade and my memory has decayed.

And I'm trying to think of something that certainly Spurgeon preached on this, that we do need to check out that our assurance is genuine.

I mean, a person living in conscious sin and disobedience, there are stories of them in the past who've always touted their safety in Christ, but their life doesn't manifest that.

Yes, and I remember Spurgeon also saying that sometimes dear saints who are very aware of their sin and more sensitive to their disobedience to God are sometimes unfortunately plagued with doubts of their salvation.

And that obviously does not mean that they are lost. And this is due, sorry

Chris, this is due to that false doctrine of Christian perfectionism. I mean, as a ten -year -old

I went forward to the front about ten times a year, because my conversion lasted about three weeks.

And I had no idea of God keeping me, of me still being a sinner and needing redemption.

You know, I questioned all my early experiences as a young person, because of my indwelling sin.

And the other thing is, and I don't know if people generally know much about John Duncan, that lovely

Free Church of Scotland minister and professor in Hebrew. And he always had this problem of lack of assurance.

When he became a believer in God, he jumped all over the bridge in his native town, you know, that crossed the local river, praising

God. But he always had problems as to whether he was a genuine believer. And another colleague in Scotland, in Edinburgh, who was a very fine man, he would see

John coming along to the house looking a bit gloomy, and he'd say, right, I've got to deal with John.

I've dealt with him so many times and given him basis for assurance. So every time that John came knocking on his door to get assurance, this minister would say, so -and -so down the road needs a bit of comfort in Christ.

They need to hear the gospel. And Duncan was always restored to assurance by ministering to somebody else.

And, of course, there is that passage in 2

Peter chapter 1, verse 10 that tells us, therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling, meaning

God's calling and choosing you. For as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.

And obviously, this has nothing to do with becoming, being given an insight into the secret things of God and His divine election.

It's not, like, for instance, there are people that have said to me or even sent in a question to one of my guests, that they are terrified that even though they love

Christ, they've repented, are following Him, not perfectly as no one could, but at least faithfully, they still are terrified that they're not of the elect because they have a wrong understanding about that.

They think it's some kind of a lottery system where they could be a repentant believer for decades and then tragically die and then wind up on Judgment Day and have

God go through a Rolodex or something and say, oh, no, you're not one of the elect, sorry, you're not on the list here.

If somebody is of the elect, they will be demonstrating a love for Christ and a love for His church and a love for His word and they will demonstrate repentance and even if they sin, which they do, they get up and they repent and they follow

Him faithfully again. So this text is to examine our hearts and lives, not that we are to somehow have an insight into the window of the secret things of God.

Yes, and you know, are you there, Chris? I am here.

Ah, okay. You reminded us earlier on, at the outset, that people will come to the throne, as it were, at the

Judgment and say, Lord, Lord. They're calling Him Lord. They're confident of themselves. But the thing about a hypocrite is that they don't know they're hypocrites.

They're secure. And they're secure in their own set of lies and their own self - reassurance.

A person who is questioning all the time is obviously wanting to get right with God.

And we have to go to our final break. It's going to be much more brief than the last one. If you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

We'll be right back with Roger Salter, right after these messages from our sponsors. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine

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Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. This is the final five -minute segment of our show, our interview with Roger Salter on the theme

Do You Really Know God? If you intend to write a question, send it in immediately because we're almost out of time.

ChrisArnzen at Gmail .com ChrisArnzen at Gmail .com We do have another anonymous listener who asks,

I have been told by a what seems to be reliable Anglican source that the reason why the

Anglo -Catholic wing of Anglicanism still exists is because its bishops would not maintain or retain their status as bishops were they to convert to Roman Catholicism otherwise there doesn't seem to be a single thing stopping them other than this fact.

Does your guest agree? That's true in some instances, Chris. Yes, people want to retain the office and the so -called dignity and authority of it.

I think sometimes, oh I shouldn't make this rough sort of comment but I can't help myself.

I think since Vatican II some of Anglo -Catholicism is more

Catholic, more Roman in its belief and practice than the actual

Catholic church of today. You know, I've been to those churches in England and I can't believe what

I see and what I observe. I just quickly wanted to get a word into about two physicians of the soul that I think would be helpful if the writings that they are responsible for are wisely chosen.

I would say John Newton deals with these things in his correspondence so well and James Atkinson's biography of Martin Luther is superb because it has such a beautiful demonstration of justification by faith and the free gift of salvation and I can honestly tell you whenever I read it

I can't sit still. I've got to get up, walk around and shuffle because it's so energizing.

It's such a deliverance for the mind. Praise God. Well, if you could in two minutes summarize what you most want to enter into the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, this may not be on target Chris but I did make the note and it's capable of being misunderstood

I suppose as much of what I say happens to be but you know

I think there is a sense in which and I'm very anxious over this, perfectionism has robbed people of assurance because we'll always be sinners until we're taken to glory and we'll always find faults and flaws and sinners.

We don't tolerate them but they're there and I don't know how many times Christian joy is destroyed because of this doctrine imported into the church by John Wesley the modern evangelical church and what

I wrote down I just penciled it in earlier this morning that we are a living experiment revealing the operations of sin and grace within us and God gives us ourselves as a problem to work through towards understanding and holiness.

We are molded by the fact of sin and evil within us and the grace of God within us and Romans 6

Romans 7 sorry Alexander White said before he bought a commentary on Romans he would always look at the struggle of the believer between what he doesn't want to do and be and what he wants to do and be and if they don't deal with that honestly he wouldn't buy the commentary because the

Christian life is a battle day and night 24 -7 Amen.

Well God bless you you have been as you always are such a phenomenal guest I want to repeat if anybody wants to find out more about Roger Salter and St.

Matthews Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama go to STM which is an abbreviation for St.

Matthews stmanglican .weebly .com stmanglican .weebly

.com and you can also go to rogersalter .com rogersalter .com

thank you so much Roger everybody who wrote in questions today will get a free copy of Knowing God by J .I.

Packer sent to you by cvbbs .com if you give me your full mailing addresses including those who wrote in anonymously