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JOHN SAMSON, pastor of KING’s CHURCH, PEORIA, AZ to discuss:
“More on the WORD of FAITH HERESY!!”
with special guest cohost Eric Nielsen, Elder at the Community Evangelical Free Church of Champaign-Urbana, IL
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host.
Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnson your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this 12th day of August 2016.
I'm so delighted to have my friend back on the program, Pastor John Sampson who is the pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona and he is a former Word of Faith Pentecostal and not only was he a pastor in that heretical movement but he was also a talk show host on the local Word of Faith affiliate of TBN, the Trinity Broadcasting Network which is an ironic name for a network that would air programming hosted by Oneness Pentecostals.
But our friend is originally from the United Kingdom now living in the wonderful nation that we call the United States of America and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back again to Iron Sharpens Iron, John Sampson.
Oh it's good to be with you Chris, always is, thank you. And co-hosting with me for the very first time ever is a man who is not only the new webmaster for Iron Sharpens Iron radio, thanks be to God, without him the program would probably not be on the air right now, and he is also an elder at the Community Evangelical Free Church in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois and he is Eric P. Nielsen.
It's great to have you in studio co-hosting for the very.
First time Eric. Thanks Chris, it's good to be here at the Iron Sharpens Iron studios. And if.
You could Eric let our listeners know more about yourself before we move on to Pastor John. Okay.
As you said I'm an elder at the Community Evangelical Free Church of Champaign-Urbana. We are a fairly small church but we love the doctrines of grace and we love the gospel and we love missions. Ever since I started going to the church we've met in a gym and the reason that we do that is we want to try and put a large portion of our budget towards reaching unreached.
People groups with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Great. And he is also Eric is also a mutual friend of Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Rich Pierce who is the president of Alpha and Omega Ministries and also a member a fairly new member of the church where our guest John Sampson is the pastor and Eric has done some internet work and other things like that for Alpha and Omega Ministries in the past.
And it's such a pleasure to finally meet him face to face after having many phone and internet conversations with him and having him come to the rescue when Jason Delgado a dear dear brother in Christ who was the initial webmaster for Iron Sharpens Iron had to step down due to overwhelming family commitments including the passing of a very young adopted son who had a rare skin disease an adopted son from Russia.
And I ask of you to continue to pray for the Delgado family as I'm sure they are still mourning the loss of this precious child that they adopted. But and we thank Jason Delgado from the bottom of our hearts for creating such a beautiful website and hope that Jason can be involved with the program in some way again at some point in the future.
But Pastor John Sampson if you could I know that you've already been on this program if you could let our listeners know something about your background in England how you came here to the United States and how you became involved in what is known as the word of faith ministries or theology we would call it word of faith heresy now I always did but you just started to but I don't know several years ago.
But uh but if you could tell us something about.
Your background. Well how far back do you want to go. I was. I was born very close to my mother and then we kind of drifted apart and very quickly was swept up in movement and was very impressed with some of the things I saw around and actually went after maybe 90 percent of the lectures were reformed but they never told me why and they never went through the scriptures with me as to what it is they believed.
And then why. And after bible college rather than entering the ministry with that particular denomination uh joined a gentleman by the name of Harry Greenwood who was probably without too much doubt the leading word of faith preacher in the United Kingdom.
Might be some who would who would dispute that but he was certainly number one or number two and I was his assistant. And it was really an amazing time of nine months of traveling with him and maybe I'd speak for 10 minutes and then he'd carry on and all the places we went to which were out of the United Kingdom India Australia and New Zealand and then the United States here.
But uh came over to America to actually start a church and it would be certainly a word of faith church. And uh only in time has the Lord brought me out and that's something of a story I've shared before.
But that's something of my background.
And it'd probably be a good idea for us to get some of the main uh areas of belief that would separate a word of faith Pentecostal from uh more mainstream uh Pentecostals and some of the major denominations or even independent charismatic churches that are more in alignment with biblical orthodoxy.
And as we were saying before the program we have to be careful that we're not slandering brethren in Christ by broad brushing Pentecostals and charismatics with the with this label because there are I know personally Pentecostal ministers and members of Pentecostal churches and charismatic churches that are equally appalled and disgusted with the word of faith movement.
Some perhaps even more so because they are very often broad brushed along with them since they are charismatic. But um let me let me before you even do that. Let me give our email address out. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.
Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside of the USA. And uh please only remain anonymous. If it's a personal private matter perhaps you don't want to offend someone that you know and love who is a word of faith believer.
Perhaps you're in a church that's word of faith and you're thinking of leaving. Or there's some reason that you want to remain anonymous. We will grant that request. But if you can we prefer that you identify at least your first name city and state and country of residence.
So going back to the the main areas that would separate word of faith theology from your typical mainstream Pentecostal and charismatic churches. Yeah that's a very good question. And.
It's something it's it's very hard to answer in just a a minute or two but in two words i would say over-realized eschatology which is a technical way of talking to speak of everything that is on the cross.
It would be seen in the word of faith movement as he went to the cross for all of our sin all of our sickness all of our disease the curse from us. And yet in all of our pools he is lord over when he brings that promise to pass i could say to a child of mine i i will get you three years from now.
Lowercase sense over watch over that movement. It's all now. It's available now. And if you're not receiving it there's something wrong with you or you're not working the system or you need more knowledge of the laws of the universe that god has put in.
Confess this look back with a lot of sad people talk about in the word of faith movement. So it's an entire worldview. Light of jesus has gone to the cross for all of us and we can receive all of it. Now man's been given the keys hide by what you and i say.
And you're inviting the devil into your life with his sicknesses. And you'll have what you say. And you know this chris in many other areas too the greatest lies are built on some truth. Words are extremely powerful.
They can bring death and life to any relationship and that's really the context in which those words. There's the meaning in proverbs. But the word of faith takes i can't say that you can't say i'm catching a cold worldview.
That is certainly not true of many in what we would call the spectrum of movement which is and you used the phrase before i just.
Wanted to make sure that people didn't misunderstand what you meant when you said realized eschatology. There is a heretical group uh that we would call hyper preterists. Yeah they would call themselves uh sometimes uh believers in covenant eschatology realized eschatology or sometimes they just call themselves preterists.
But they are confusing the issue with those who are partial preterists who have a biblical view of the visible physical return of christ and the resurrection of the dead. But most of these word of faith uh main spokesmen if you will for that movement they would believe in at least uh some kind of a future return of christ.
I'm assuming. Yes that's true. That's a good point to make. Yep all right. And uh well the what some of the things that uh you uh have actually laid out that are going to be possible chapter headings in a book that you are working on that may be published in the not so distant future on this issue which i'm eagerly looking forward to get a hold of.
But one of the uh chapter headings uh at least that you are envisioning is buy the truth and sell it not. And uh how much do you uh want to know the truth etc. Uh if you're not willing to send a a televangelist money uh you're not worthy of a blessing and god will not give you one and so on.
But if you could tell us about that title.
Yeah the buy the truth and sell it not it's it's a verse from the book of proverbs that basically is outlining the fact that sell all you have to get it. And many of the people i talk to on this issue i have a closed mind and i'm not open to hear scripture on this.
Uh the fact is the word of faith seems to at first glance at least in a shallow way base its entire teaching on scripture. They're always telling people that they're word people word of god people. But looking back i can see it was favorite word of god people.
There were verses that are taken out of their setting out of their context. And you can build a huge skyscraper type doctrine on a little literally a dime of real estate. There's not much to it. But you take a verse buying the truth means i want to know what god says.
I want to know all that he says. I want to receive everything he's revealed about himself in the bible. And what we should do as as christians is when we learn of the enormous sovereignty of god over all things what we should do is not forget that when we're talking about other issues.
And what we do as reform people is not forget that. And in a systematic theology we on page one two or three we would mention god's sovereignty. And when we come to page 32 which talks about man and salvation and all of that we shouldn't forget the fact that he's sovereign.
He's sovereign in salvation. He's sovereign over all his works. And one of the key themes that is rejected by word of faith is the sovereignty of god. It cannot handle that. In fact i heard one uh word of faith preacher name is andrew warmack say and he's a gentleman who stayed at my home.
By the way i had him many times as a guest preacher at our church. He's actually calling that the teaching of the sovereignty of god the greatest heresy confronting the body of christ at this time. Wow it's it's it.
The the lines are drawn a god who is sovereign versus a god who in his sovereignty has given man dominion. And we work off god in our life by what we believe say man is in control and god in his sovereignty has handed the keys of the car to man and said now you do deal with it as you will.
You have life as you want it. I've showed you i've i've shown you what i want. Now it's up to you now i was just.
Curious since uh that uh proverbial statement from the scriptures buy the truth and sell it not uh is is that a common scripture that is twisted by the word of faith in order to get people to give money in order to be blessed by the.
I've not really heard that. Perhaps that is out there.
Um i'm i'm not sure on that one. Where i'm coming from is is that just the heartfelt desire that only god can put inside the soul is i want to know the truth. And you read uh proverbs four and it's not a casual acquaintance with the truth it's it's crying out for understanding.
It's god. Show me show me who you really are show me what your word teaches. And um but that could be a scripture. That is uh very well misused. I'm not so aware of that one. Okay. Well one of the things.
That strikes me as something that would differentiate word of faith pentecostals from a more uh historic um pentecostals old school pentecostals and some charismatic folks even because as you know there are even reformed churches that are continuists or non-cessationists some even will call themselves charismatic uh who would militate against word of faith pentecostalism very much and even even declare it that it's heresy.
But one of the things that seems to differentiate them the word of faith folks from the other pentecostals and charismatics that you and i would have more in common with is the uh greed being a really central motivating factor in what you want from god to make you a happier person in this on this earth.
It seems it's a very greed driven uh theology whereas you may have some very humble uh and poor even pentecostal and charismatic folks who are very content with what they have. They they are just saying and i believe that they are misinterpreting scripture since i am a cessationist.
But they are just saying we are really just defending the inerrancy of the scripture. We see in the scripture that there were miracles performed by the apostles and the believers in jesus's day. And in the days of the apostolic era when the bible was written we see no reason for these miracles to cease if god is the same yesterday today and forever.
We believe that these things are for us today as the church and to them it validates the inerrancy of scripture. And that is really uh it's almost like they were reacting to the liberalism and the dead orthodoxy perhaps of dry protestantism and evangelicalism that had lost its vibrancy and its passion.
And so there were there were at least some i think some good motivations in the origins of these movements. I just obviously disagree. But right. But they would these these folks would also look upon the the obvious palatable uh or should i say palpable uh greed of the um of the word of faith folks.
They would look at that as being something repugnant and far into their own theology. Well but would i be right on saying that that is a hallmark it seems of word of faith. Theology is green. Yeah you're absolutely right the gentleman.
I was with harry creamer had a different bench in that he would uh define prosperity in a way different from most of the word of faith folk out there. He would say god's prosperity is not measured by how much we have but how much we're able to give is a little different.
Pat. But in general you're absolutely right. That would be a defining thing. And greed is central although it's never admitted. But that's exactly what is the case. Just on that in my own thinking i when i when i came to see the deception of it um and and see it see its harshness and cruelty.
Oh you know we have the proverbial little old lady who's sending her ten dollar check in to tbn or to the preachers she's seen on tv. And it's these very very nasty um preachers who are like wolves who are devouring people in this way on the giver's part.
Given his hundreds you're giving your thousands. God will give in his thousands. And both are motivated by not merely the one with the wrong motivation it can be the the giver as well. Although giving is a good thing it can be false motivation.
Second in the four is a key scripture. For the time is coming when people will not end the teaching. But having itching ears they'll accumulate for themselves. Theology propagate everything. So they will teach us having itching ears for themselves teachers not merely the false teacher who has the false motivation.
We have a listener in mastic beach long island. Tyler.
Who asks is the word of faith movement a byproduct of the more heretical side of the charismatic movement. And his second question is should we be more understanding to god-fearing brothers who are.
Continuists or continualists. I would say yes to both uh questions. The the word of faith is a subsection of the charismatic movement. There's not a word of faith uh preacher like as well. But charismatic is.
The gifts of the holy spirit that were present in the first century are still in operation now. That's precise if you wanted to spend more time on that. But uh certainly that is the case. The the word of faith springs out of the charismatic section.
Um that the second part uh if.
You can remind me of the question what what was that. Uh. Well it's something that we really were saying at the outset of the program that uh we can't we shouldn't he's saying should we be more understanding yeah towards our god-fearing uh continualist brethren.
And then of course not all continualists even uh prefer uh to be identified as charismatic like for instance john piper. Yeah who is a continualist he doesn't personally speak in tongues but he just believes that they are possible today.
Yeah that the gift is that the gift that the miraculous sign gift is possible. So you have all different kinds of levels of continualism or continuism. Uh and uh so he just he was saying should we be more understanding about toward them.
And i do know uh some of my fellow reformed brethren and reformed baptist brethren who have very little or no tolerance towards charismatics. They would some of them would say and this would probably be a minority of of reformed christians.
But some of them would even say that they were not saved that they could not be regenerate and hold to these views. And of course there are some fundamentalists who would have that kind of an opinion of them.
But uh you i mean you believe that you are actually a born.
Again believer when you are in this movement don't you i do. But that's barely that's in terms of my my understanding of what a christian is is someone who embraces the gospel and has a correct view of god.
Even though we're growing in our knowledge all the time there's no. Um there's an acceptance of god as trinity. There's a acceptance of christ as fully god fully man. And my views on that haven't changed as hasn't my view on repentance and faith.
And repentance is not something that is in any way stressed in the faith movement. But i was certainly believing that what what i understand is that there are some doctrines that are damnable as second peter talks about.
There are damnable heresies. Heresies that are that is believed will damn the soul. This is these are things like the deity of christ. Jesus made it clear unless you believe that i am you will die in your sins he said.
So that's people say doctrine is not important. Absolutely. It is according to jesus you've got to believe the right thing about jesus got to believe the right thing about god. Um we don't have to be elite theologians.
But we shouldn't deny these central uh components of the faith. There is a difference between embracing the gospel and then some of these uh i would say lesser doctrines. Although every doctrine is important some are damnable and some are just errors that should be avoided.
No one should want to embrace error. None of us believe we do errors that are so severe they are damnable. I don't believe that those who are charismatic who also embrace the true god and the true gospel.
Uh as far as the deity of christ uh does the typical word of faith preacher pass the litmus test on that because i know that they do believe in the trinity but they have a very warped and strange understanding of it.
Like they i know that they believe that god the father at least some of the prominent ones like kenneth copeland god the father has a physical body just like the mormons believe. And uh you know jesus christ became a demon on the cross and was punished in hell uh after leaving the cross after after dying and um and uh was actually the first born again man in hell that jesus actually required a rebirth or a new birth and things like that that would seem to militate against orthodox understanding of the trinity.
You're absolutely right. What. What we to answer your question is to say it depends who you ask there are. There are people in the movement who have an absolutely sound understanding. Um but that's more and more rare as i'm looking from the outside now.
But there are people like in england a gentleman who's very prominent is a man called colin urquhart he's a former church of england vicar author of a book that was very popular way back called when the spirit comes and he would have a very orthodox view on on some of those things but still be considered part of the word of faith movement.
Um but there's uh people like uh the kenneth copeland you've said and and i i shudder when i hear what he says and what i was even aware of some of the things he said while i was still in the movement.
Here's here's why i stayed in. There's no a central headquarters there's no scrutiny or surveillance. So you don't get a letter from tulsa or somewhere else saying hey we heard you taught this on sunday.
What about that you need to answer to us. There's there's no such thing going on. And although many people ridicule denominations they do have standards and they do call pastors and preachers to account and say what is this.
We're hearing your teaching. That doesn't happen within that movement and so i could stay in the movement and say oh my goodness can't believe someone like him said that i'm glad i don't and then just move on because there's no calling to account.
So if you can see that if you put every false statement together of every word of faith teacher you can provide hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of of material. But i can still stay in the movement because i think i don't believe that.
I don't believe that he said this. I don't believe that she said this. I don't believe that. It's very hard.
And of course uh there are those who are independent autonomous churches or should i say who lead them or are in them independent autonomous churches like most baptists would be. Uh the reform baptist movement is predominantly made up of independent and autonomous churches.
But they would be very quick if if a person professing to be a reform baptist was publicly teaching some kind of dangerous thing they would be really uh very public in disassociating them for themselves from this individual.
And there are organizations like the association of reform baptist churches of america and yeah and a new one that has started the reform baptist network and who would be very quick to uh remove churches like that from membership in their their associations and uh.
And of course uh i think reform baptist may be too quick on the trigger to to condemn their their fellow brethren at times. Uh perhaps they're they're overly uh uh judgmental if you will about a brother who disagrees on areas that should not cause division.
But it seems that when we we being christians on the planet earth prior to being in glory with christ we're always going to be messing something up here. We're either going to be erring on the left or the right.
And very few of us are going to get it just exactly uh correct in regard to being too soft or too judgmental or harsh on a good point very good.
Point only in heaven will we truly understand that chris armson was right.
Well i have people reminding me almost daily after every show that that's not true. But anyway we're going to a break right now and we do have a listener in scotland waiting for his question to be asked.
Uh murray in kinross scotland. I hope you'll be patient and we'll get to your question after we return from the break. Uh i don't know if you've ever been to or have ever uh heard of kinross scotland.
Uh pastor john i think i've been there but i'm not sure if i actually been there. But uh nowhere. It is for sure all right. Great. Well we're going to be right back after these messages. If you'd like to join those that have sent in questions uh with a if you'd like to join them by writing your own question and emailing it to us.
Our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com chris arnson at gmail .com. And please give us your first name city and state and country of residence. If you live outside of the good old usa we'll be right back after these messages.
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Welcome back. This is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in. Today's guest on iron sharpens iron as you just heard in that ad is charles haddon spurgeon is with us today. He has departed from glory temporarily to be our guest today and discuss a very important subject but obviously i jest that a voice that you heard in that commercial for solid grand christian books who was depicting um charles haddon spurgeon was indeed our guest.
John sampson of the king's church in peoria arizona. We are talking about the word of faith movement. If you'd like to join us on the air with your own question. Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris arnzen at gmail .com. And before we go to our listener in kenross scotland murray uh with his question i just want to announce that the g3 conference is going to be held in atlanta georgia january 19th through the 21st.
And god willing i chris arnzen of iron sharpens iron will be there with an exhibitors booth. And i am so excited about this because this is one of the largest rosters of phenomenal speakers at any conference i have ever heard of and i've interviewed over half of these men in the past on this program and i'm looking forward to god willing interviewing all of them if i can.
Uh these speakers include paul washer who i have not interviewed yet and i'm hoping to stephen j lawson who's been on this program many times uh dr d .a carson who's been on this program. Vody balkan who i hope to interview at some point but i have met him and he expressed interest in being a guest on iron sharpens iron of course my friend for many years.
Dr james r white of alpha omega ministries who has been on this program very often in fact was my very first guest ever on iron sharpens iron. Tim chalice uh who is going to be on the program uh for the very first time very shortly within the next uh few weeks in fact and i will uh give you all an update on what date that is as soon as i get my calendar open and look at that uh conrad and bayway who is probably the most powerful preacher on the planet earth right now.
He is a friend of mine since 1995 he's been on this program and he has preached at the congregation where i was formerly a member on long island. He is currently the pastor of kabwata baptist church in lusaka zambia africa.
And you if you are able to hear him preach anywhere i would advise you to do everything that you can to make it to uh the venue where he is preaching because he is a truly extraordinarily gifted man of god uh phil johnson who has probably been on this show more than any other guest uh maybe he rivals steve camp who had been on quite a number of times on this broadcast especially the older version of iron sharpens iron.
But phil johnson uh who is the executive director of grace to you ministries the ministry of john macarthur he is on this roster. Josh bice who i just recently interviewed on the program he is actually the one orchestrating this event.
And rosaria butterfield who is a former leftist lesbian who came to christ and is now married to a presbyterian pastor. She has renounced her wicked uh life prior to her regeneration and has written very prolifically about it and speaks in conferences and so on uh letting those there know how the lord miraculously rescued her from the ideology of leftism and also the sexual perversion of homosexuality.
Uh she is also returning to the iron sharpens iron program again very shortly. Todd freel of wretched radio who is going to be on my program this coming monday god willing to discuss his book stressed out.
And uh we hope that you join us for that program as well. And uh john kratz i've interviewed him on the program in the past looking forward to that again. And a number of others. If you'd like more information on the g3 conference go to g3 conference .com g3 conference .com and it's g and the number three conference .com.
And i hope to see you there uh at the exhibit at my exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron at the g3 conference now i know the place is going to be jam-packed because people know i'm going to be there.
So they're going to sell out. So they're going to sell out of tickets very shortly. I'm sure um but anyway why isn't anybody laughing. I guess i should be happy they're not. They're not laughing. Um let's go to our uh guest.
Or should i say our listener in kinross scotland. Uh murray says uh let's see. Apologies if this was asked earlier in the show. But how would word of faith teachers interpret bearing his reproach in hebrews 13 13.
Any idea on that. John i'd have to look it up. Um while you're looking it up let me just give out our email address again. It's chris arnzen at gmail .com. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own chris arnzen at gmail .com.
C-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. And also murray. If you're still listening i would uh like to know where in england you lived before you moved to scotland. Because murray in a previous program when he was asking a question uh identified himself as a brit who actually moved to scotland.
So he's not a native scotsman. And perhaps you two lived not far apart from each other when he was in england who knows. But have you located that that verse. Uh brother. And do you have any comments on any particular.
Yeah. Yeah it's. It's a verse that says therefore.
Let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. And um it's it's a phrase that you see something of in hebrews 11 as well which speaks of moses considering the reproach of christ greater wealth greater riches than the treasures of egypt.
And here it's talking about the of the world thing and a useless thing to serve christ. And certainly moses was aware of the fact that by choosing for the people of god with israel and he would be receiving the reproach of egypt they would look on him with scorn.
I think that's what it's talking about here in hebrews 13 as well. Let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. The verse in hebrews 11 which similar wording speaks of the reproach of christ or the reproach of belonging to christ and the the call of commitment to christ means the world is not going to stand on the sidelines and applaud.
There's going to be ridiculed there's going to be scorn uh sent in our way uh thrown our way. So i think that's really what it's talking about so i'm not sure why.
Murray asked that question in relationship to word of faith believers but perhaps he means by that if you are if you're if the word of faith theology is true you're going to live a life free of that kind of negative reaction.
Or maybe he is saying that we are the ones guilty of attacking these people that are truly presenting the gospel. I'm not really sure why murray used that verse. I'd need to kind of fly back and say well murray.
Murray. If you could email us again with a with a motivation yeah. Behind the question. Yeah right. I'd like to ask uh my co-host eric nielsen a question. Uh since i know he is an elder in an evangelical free church.
I wanted to see if eric you have had any personal experience as a charismatic uh believer at any time in your walk with christ or your journey in theology. And what is the uh. If there is an official position of the evangelical free church denomination on the the gifts.
The sign gifts. Uh well just to answer the.
First part of your question uh no i i have never personally uh had any experience as a charismatic believer. I'm a cessationist myself and do not believe that the sign gifts continue into today. I believe that they had a specific purpose in the new testament times particularly when the the apostles were responsible for writing the scriptures.
But the evangelical free church has believers that are sensationists as well as non-cessationists. In fact we have some people in our own church who believe that they they have experienced the sign gifts.
When we discuss those things we debate them vigorously. And we of course i try and in my own way to convince them of my position. Uh so uh so do you. Do you point these people who believe.
They have the sign gifts to the exit sign and you're just just a joke. There we we don't but.
That uh that does. Uh that does bring me a question for uh. For pastor john um i uh i have had some experience in uh in the past in uh discussing and i don't want to broad brush uh too much as as we've been saying those who believe in the sign gifts.
But i found uh in the past that there are some who who actually consider the sign gifts as more the the test of orthodoxy than uh than orthodox doctrine. And and what i mean by that is is this um i've i've met some people who have uh sympathies toward for example oneness pentecostals or people in the word of faith movement and and uh my i may point out well you know this this person is is not a not a believer in in christ and in that they they specifically deny the trinity.
But the response that that i get back is well they they don't believe in the trinity but they manifest the sign gifts in the same way that that we as charismatic believers manifest the sign gifts and if the holy spirit gives these gifts to them and they give the gifts to us.
Do you see. Do you see my where my question.
Is there how would you address that. Uh pastor john well read through our bibles and it tells us that in the last days there will be blind signs blind wonders. Uh matthew 24 jesus speaking of his return the number the first thing he mentioned is take heed the you are not deceived question of whether something happens that is in any way supernatural.
As to the test of whether the word that was spoken has its uh authenticity authenticity. And god. It's very quiet as being god sent. It's does it point us to the true god. And in fact that's the test of the prophet in the book of deuteronomy is is this person not only what they say does it come to pass in a prophecy god or is it a false god.
And if it's a false god your god is testing you. That the test forms and wonders and miracles rather than the signs and wonders that supposedly are taking place. And uh my experience is there's very little in the way in the area signs and wonders taking place.
I i would actually present one time as one of the pastors out of any anchors that be there for veterans. And they would also see that they weren't getting healed. Right. Exactly whatever healed it'll be national news.
It's not it's not happened. In fact john johnny erickson those those who are making that claim are not able to back up the claim by saying patient healed all the time. But uh jesus and his enemies could not say that was not a real miracle.
These were genuine miracles. Doesn't mean that it's all happening. Yeah i remember johnny.
Erickson tada who uh you may be familiar with uh she is a quadriplegic and uh is a very powerful.
Christian uh writer wonderful christian. And but just to jump in most people would never have in all the trials i've ever had in life. And uh thinking there's this view that unless you're here you're missing something and yet the grace of god that's been on that lady's life is is.
Absolutely monumental and i've had to repent yes she over that when i when i was hearing her testimony at um uh well the recorded testimony at grace community church where john macarthur is the pastor she was relating to some incident in a in a uh healing service pentecostal healing service where the people that were clearly truly disabled and having uh issues that were not being faked or not something that was i have a slight loss of hearing in my left ear or something like that.
Yeah people that were were where their disability was patently obvious they were put in they were put in a certain obscured or hidden section of the sanctuary or the auditorium wherever it was and um so that they would not actually have an opportunity to get healed because they knew that these people would not be healed because they knew that this whole thing was a uh a lie.
Now let me ask you about that about the whole issue of deception. There are very few in fact i can't even think of a word of faith uh televangelist or a notable person within the ranks of that theology that when i can't even think of one that when i see them speak i don't immediately think to myself this person knows that they are deceiving people.
There is something so theatrical and so um there's i can't put a label on it. Perhaps i mean the only thing that's striking me right now is nauseating. But yeah i can i can remember even one time when hearing the recording of kenneth copeland and robbie howard brown having a conversation in tongues where they were actually telling each other jokes in tongues and laughing and all that and i can't couldn't help but think these people know that they are deceiving the public.
And in fact i saw rodney howard brown on two occasions uh just because i was playing a private investigator and wanted to see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears right there what he was saying and doing.
And i i just could not help but think that he and the pastors that were involved in this meeting had the they all had the uh the uh common knowledge between them that or among them that this was just a total fake this was just a to them like a big joke but i don't know how common that is in your experience like for instance did you were you always sincerely believing that this was all real.
And did you always present yourself honestly. Not. Not that you would be presenting the truth because you were now acknowledging you're you were teaching a lie but were you consciously doing that. Were you.
Consciously exaggerating or faking anything that is such a good question i would say observe some people and think to myself these guys are they know what they're doing. Um but i can only speak for myself saying i've seen second timothy three that speak evil people and imposters will go from bad to worse.
Deceiving and being deceived. This i think we all can. When you're deceived and you don't realize you can actually believe the deception. There are some who know it's not true that i have no doubt about that i my my job is not to be the judge of their heart in that sense.
Genuinely believe. To say that was true for me. I i had this over-realized eschatology. I believe that everybody could be healed here and now. Everybody because of what jesus did for us at the cross and i since.
Yet i don't believe that's true that they are yes and amen. But god is lord over when those promises take place and for some their healing's not going to be.
This side of the grave it's going to be in heaven now. Did you believe that you actually had the gift of healing. Did you witness things that you believed were authentic healings. I certainly believe.
I saw.
Authentic healings. I wouldn't say i had any first corinthians twilight rather than gifts that i possessed and so my view there was that every christian can walk in these manifestations rather.
Than someone having a specific all right. We're going to pick up on some of that uh train of thought there when we return. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.
Chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with pastor john sampson. Iron sharpens. Iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year-round bible conference and retreat center.
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Tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert. Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship. And how about the preaching. Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island.
Well there's good news wedding river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word. And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.
Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Welcome back. This is chris arms. And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is pastor john sampson.
He is a former word of faith pastor and talk show host who came to recognize that these teachings were heretical and dangerous and deadly. And god gave him a heart of repentance and and brought him into the doctrines of sovereign grace which he has now wholeheartedly embraced and which have really transformed himself not only as a christian but as a pastor.
And it's my always my pleasure to have pastor john sampson on the show. And our friend from kinross scotland clarified his question murray. From kinross scotland wrote in and says. Listening to your earlier comments it occurred to me that the kind of attitude of heart behind an over-realized eschatology wouldn't sit too well with the attitude of identifying with christ in his cross and suffering which can mean discomfort and self denial.
So that's where he was connecting. That uh verse that he. Or hebrews 13 13. Yeah. And uh. He also says. I'm originally from london and also lived for a while in guildford in england and in scotland. I also lived for two years in edinburgh.
All right. Very good. Yeah i'd agree with that. It's certainly.
Not the case that you can embrace the word faith world view and also what the bible speaks about.
Regarding suffering he's right on regarding that. And uh going back to what i was that thread that we were on before it reminded me of second thessalonians 2 11 that god will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.
And i was wondering if in your life in your own personal experience as a word of faith preacher things were making being manifested that seemed miraculous even perhaps in your own life that things that are a part of the word of faith message were were coming becoming realities.
And they were making it uh further they were. It was further committing you to this theology because you were seeing that it was real and that and could you believe that this is possibly the fact that this that god was.
Turning you over to this delusion that's a very good question i think from the god of the bible you're asking me. You know personally where i was and i haven't changed my view on the trinity on who god is who the lord jesus christ is.
I believe i was preaching and proclaiming the true god. And yet i was still the true god who was answering those prayers because that's who i was praying to. But when we come to one that's pentecostalism.
And when we come to this regarding that if anything that takes place could not be a manifestation of a very good question and i can't address everybody who's ever preached effective and believe that god was amazingly gracious in answering a whole lot of prayers when i was in error.
In the view of god that his word gives light you can have whether it's from a century you can have a room that's been just totally pitch black god as he really is in his sovereignty. Oh you've got the three hebrew children you remember in daniel chapter three.
And you remember what uh they said. They said oh never could never. We have no need to answer you in this matter. If this be so our god whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fire he will deliver the golden image that you set up.
And i think we all i believe the most miraculous even if he does to the image. And that's biblical faith clinging to the promises he's made there in our bibles while at the same time leaving the results completely in god's hands.
And um if i will if i can i'd encourage people just open their bibles read their bibles read the wonderful chapter on faith hebrews 11 which recalls all of the heroes of both old and new testaments who persevered in faith.
And for some all of them being champions of their faith notice what their faith did for them. For some it was good things. For some it was very hard things. And if i can just take them just about a minute and just walk us through that passage.
Yeah life i think will come on. For for many of us think of the good things who through faith it says verse 35 of hebrews 11. Who through faith conquered kingdoms that's good enforced justice that's good of lions that's good escape the edge of the sword were made strong out of weakness that again is good.
Back they're dead by resurrection that's good. But now notice the contrast. For others who are walking in faith hard things it says this in verse 35. Some were tortured except release so they might rise again to a better life.
That's hard. Others suffered mocking and flogging that's hard. And even chains and imprisonment that's hard. I'd say that's very hard. They were sawn into my goodness is that hard. They were killed with the sword.
They went about in skins of sheep sheep and goats that's hard. They were destitute that's hard. Afflicted of whom the world was not worthy wandering about in deserts that's hard. And mountains that's hard.
And in dens and caves of the earth that's hard. And here's the point of the entire passage. Those who endured the harder things in no way possessed a lesser faith than those who experience the good things.
In both cases their faith in god is noted applauded. That faith allowed some to see dramatic positive answers to prayer even the miraculous. While others endured the harshest possible experiences of life and even the cruelest kinds of death with their trust and hope in god intact.
And that's what true physical faith is believing god's promises while leaving.
All of the results in his hands. Praise god. Uh now uh forgive me if you mentioned this already on the air but when it comes to i know that you're obviously not a word of faith pentecostal but. But are you a strict cessationist today.
Yes i am okay because one of the things i wanted to ask you is what do you think was going on when you were speaking in tongues. That's a very good.
Question. I i think the authentic thing we see in the new testament it's very different from what my experience was. Um there was a man i still remember his name john lloyd. I i don't believe he's still with us on earth at this moment but he was at great pains to get me as a 14 15 year old lad young man into this experience.
And spent many many minutes provoking me to other sounds that sounded like gibberish. But he was absolutely convinced when after about 10 or 15 minutes of him cajoling me and pushing me and say firm words with your mouth i was able to do that.
And he went away rejoicing as if he just won the lottery. Um he thought it was wonderful and i'm thinking is that it i can mumble a few words and he says just go back to your bedroom at night and keep.
If the lord has only given you a few words right now just keep at it and eventually you might have a full language just uh keep asking the lord for it. And over time if you can mouth those same words you can you can make yourself say a whole lot of things.
And i i don't believe it was authentic. I don't believe it was anything that was of the holy spirit. And there are some people who knew me back then who would don't see that as certainly what happened in the new testament.
In the book of acts chapter two they were speaking in known languages. And those who were present the the jews who were there on the day of pentecost heard the works of god expressed in a language they knew from where they had just come from.
They were coming from various nations to jerusalem to attend the feast. And there they were hearing the gospel presented in a language from where they had just come from. And that people today say well there are tongues of men and tongues of angels.
And you could be having a an angelic language coming out of your mouth. And i've heard all of the arguments but again i don't see anything that is in any way uh on the same level as the new.
Testament. Now i'm assuming that there were people in the congregation where you were when you were a word of faith preacher that would interpret other people's tongues. Was that going on. Yeah.
Yeah and that would be true of any costals as well. It's yes exactly yeah. Now did you do that.
Did you think that god was giving you an interpretation of somebody else's tongues.
That they were. Yes in the sense that you know whatever comes to your mind you think that's god speaking and um never heard any audible voice but thoughts come to your mind and um you know if as one person said so well if if if god is revealing something and it's in conformity to his word it's unnecessary and if it's not in conformity to his word it's uh downright heretical so it's either unnecessary or error and i don't believe.
There's a third uh option now the lesser god of the word of faith. What. One of the um the issues that is very disturbing about this movement that i have seen when i've heard kenneth copeland speak and the late kenneth hagan and other word of faith people like uh creflo dollar and frederick price and people like that.
Um there is a we were discussing already the greed that drives much of this theology. There's also a very evil level of pride and arrogance. And where. Basically we are gods. Not quite uh the god that god the father son and holy spirit are.
But we are gods. And in fact did not kenneth copeland say because i heard it with my own ears on television that that god had told him that if he died on the cross he would have atoned for the sins of men.
Well i've not heard that statement. But i wouldn't put it past him like that. That's uh that's really i actually i actually heard it right. I heard it right from that mouth on television. Unbelievable heresy.
That is now now tell us something about that that whole concept of they make it seem to make god a lot smaller and man a lot bigger in their theology. Like like even attributing kenneth copeland and his description this very detailed description of god the father being just about the same height and weight as he is kenneth copeland you know.
And that kind of thing. This is just insanity. Isn't it absolutely. And again i i heard.
That and thought how can someone possibly say those kind of things. Um. And i just went back to my bible and read it through the lens that all that i read there was available now. And just thought i have no idea where kenneth copeland is coming from.
On that i'm thankful i don't believe that. So um you know it's it's a strange thing because there's no uh litmus test to say you must believe everything. Uh in denmark we used to you know call it uh denmark because it's either copenhagen you know.
Um there's nothing that says you have to believe that. And so i i remember reading of and hearing that kind of a message and it was some place where he ministered in in either the 70s or the 80s or early 90s.
And thinking i'm glad i don't believe that. But again it's shocking that that has been said and even more shocking that he hasn't corrected.
That to my knowledge he never has. Yeah well i mean he said god told him this stuff so i don't know how he would correct it. Yeah that's kind of a hard thing to backpedal on. Yeah now the one of the things that is really disturbing not that everything else we said today wasn't really disturbing uh.
But um the the idea that i briefly mentioned about jesus christ becoming a demon on calvary when he was uh dying on the cross and i guess that's their take on that he became sin for us. But. But uh they also go back to the raising of the bronze serpent on a stick being a symbol of a demon being on the cross.
If you could go into that very disturbing blasphemy a little bit that seems to be held by a number of word of faith. Uh. Key figures. I've not i've not.
Heard him say he became a demon. I've heard him say he took on the nature of satan which is uh equally as ridiculous and blasphemous. He might well have said the word demon. I'm i'm just not aware of it.
But the idea that jesus was in any way something less than the holy spotless lamb of god throughout all of those proceedings um is is very very very not only poor theology but it's it crosses the line to become absolute heresy.
To believe that jesus was in any way marred in his person he was absolutely righteous in and of himself. The bible speaks of sin being laid on him. The phrase that they take up and use very literally is the verse in second corinthians 5 21.
For he that's god made him jesus who knew no sin to be made sin for us that we might become the righteousness of god in him. And they say well for us to be made the righteousness of god. Which is the other side of the exchange jesus had to be made sin.
But again we need to understand the word the phrase made sin in the light of what the rest of the bible says. And nowhere nowhere does it say that jesus nature was in any way changed on the cross that evil was put within the soul of christ.
But isaiah makes it clear our sins were laid on him. He was perfect and innocent in and of himself. But our sins were laid on him uh first peter 2 24. He bore our sins in his body on the that's what we find in scripture.
We don't find anything of this satanic creation uh holy uh character was in any way uh polluted the righteousness on the cross and throughout all of the proceedings until the resurrection. And nothing in him has ever changed.
But our sins were laid on him. So it's it's a grievous error to say he became either a demon or a satanic creation. It's grievous error that is damnable. And i just hope god has mercy on the souls of those who believe it and brings them out bring them out of that horrendous deception christ is uh never.
If jesus was in any way polluted someone would need to die for him always always the spotless.
God amen. And uh had you heard as i did kenneth copeland trying to use the account of moses making the bronze serpent and putting it on a pole in numbers which is also repeated in.
The gospel of john. Uh it's actually just a few verses before john 3. And again we should go where scripture goes and stop where the scripture stops. Where as calvin said where where god makes an end of statement.
We should seek no further inquiry. And what we read in john chapter three is that just as moses raised up the serpent on the pole so the son of man be lifted up then we need to stop and say. That's what it says.
And that's all that it says. And in the same way. And so let's see the same way that the. And that's what it says. And just as you're driving on the roads there are ditches on both sides. Stay on the road.
Stay with what script. Couple of verses before. And as moses son of man be lifted up. And whoever believes in him may have eternal life. Anything of what mr copeland is saying happened that christ became a serpent.
It says as moses lifted up the.
So must the son of man be lifted up. That's what it says. Amen. And then of course they even add to that heretical notion or blasphemous notion that they have of god taking upon the nature of satan or christ taking upon the nature of satan on the cross that he became the first born again man in as if christ needed to become regenerate.
That's ridiculous isn't it. Oh yeah. Even even to voice.
That just again just of course in theology. And here's what. Here's what you find. I don't know of anyone in that faith movement. I mentioned tolling urquhart who might be a little bit different over in england but i don't know of anyone in terms of tennis copeland kenneth hagen fred price kressler dollar benny hinn who's had any theological training.
And just seven or eight hours of being exposed to found theology a lot of this out the way. But there's an aversion to theology live by the concept of special revelation knowledge and that god revealed it to certain people like ew kenyon in older days and then kenneth hagen and kenneth copeland.
And they're sitting in their little studios with their bibles and god is revealing truth. Supposedly supposedly horrendous area would be just good sound theology but they've never read a systematic.
Theology in all their lifetime. Well don't they have a uh a seminary or some kind of a pastoral institute. Rima isn't that connected with. Yeah. Rama yeah. And i i almost went there which is.
Amazing but uh i was actually accepted to go to to rama which is in kenneth hagen's uh.
Bible school in tulsa oklahoma what would be what would be the qualifications of being accepted there.
Um coming up with the money.
Hahaha why did i know that was going to be the answer yeah and uh my my dad he was going to.
Sponsor me going found out it wasn't a residential place uh you you had to live off campus and only for that reason he wouldn't provide funds for me to go. And but i see that as god's providence. And i went to a a seminary a bible college in in england which 90 percent of the lectures were reforms.
God has his ways and means. But um at rama you study kenneth hagen books you don't study. You don't study theology. You don't. And so there's there's there's no understanding of uh the greats of church history who also give all makes clear.
Christ ascended. He gave gifts to man some of them uh teachers and pastors and evangelists and uh the five-fold ministry presented there in ephesians. And yet some of them are gifts that he gave in ancient days.
And we're silly if we don't partake of the gift of some of these men of god who poured their whole lives into the scriptures and its study and uh their gifts to us that doesn't mean that they're always right but when some of the big hitters in church could be they're all wrong.
But it should cause them pause to say why would these silly idea they believed it. And what i found is they had very big reasons as to why they believed it. And we're we're very foolish to think that to give us new revelation.
That's usually when we're going to find error and we have to go to our final break right now. And this is your last opportunity to email us a question. If you'd like to have a question asked of and answered by our guest john sampson email it to chris arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com and please include your first name city and state and country of residence.
If you live outside of the usa uh don't go away we will be right back after these messages with pastor john.
Sampson paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man. If i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ. Hi.
I'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church. We are a reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689. We are in nofork massachusetts. We strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either. We believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love.
If you live near nofork massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750. Or go to our website to email us.
Listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org. That's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com.
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Welcome back. This is chris arnzen.
And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes or so we've been interviewing pastor john sampson of king's church in peoria arizona. He is a former word of faith preacher evangelist and talk show host who became transformed in his understanding of biblical theology by the mercy of of god and was delivered out of that heretical and deadly system and is now a theologically reformed and baptistic pastor in arizona.
And it happens to be the the new home church of my friend rich pierce the president of alpha and omega ministries where dr james r white is the resident apologist. And uh it's just uh good to have developed this friendship over the past year.
And i really thank god for it brother. And always love having you on the program. Miss one joy. Thank you. And i always love it when you uh fill in for james white on the dividing line and look forward to hearing and seeing that again.
And uh let me just once again remind our listeners that january 19th through the 21st 2017 the g3 conference is going to be held in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation that's in atlanta georgia.
And there's a whole roster of phenomenal speakers including uh one we just were discussing dr james r white of alpha omega ministries and many more uh and i hope that you will investigate this conference and come.
Would love to see you. And i hope that if you do come or are already registered that you'll make it a point to come over to the exhibitors table that i will be manning for iron sharpens iron radio. I'll actually be right next to the alliance of confessing evangelicals exhibitors table and helping them with distributing literature as well.
And for more details go to g3 conference .com g the number three conference .com and you'll have all the information you need about the g3 2017 conference. Uh tyler in mastic beach long island has another question for you.
He asks do you think a good passage of scripture to use against scammers is matthew 19 24 where our lord teaches that it's hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom. Yeah i think uh that's.
One of many passages i would go to i think uh it brings out a truth that and also go to first timothy that speaks of want to get rich fall into many evil desires and uh that's another passage. But i i certainly would agree that's a good passage to use that you think about it.
The unconverted promise of wealth and there's no change needed in the heart. And when uh to to to embrace uh money and more money and more money. So what are you asking the non-christian to give up if you say come to christ and you'll be healthy and wealthy.
Nothing at all. Um yeah that's that's.
Right there's no there's no need of a conversion. Is there. Yeah. What. What is the take up your cross and follow me about if your life is going to be dramatically changed for the better in a physical way uh and in a monetary way and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah one of the scriptures they use a lot is.
Jesus came to get the thief comes to kill steal and destroy. I've come that you may have life and have it more abundantly. I believe it's john cannon verse 10 but i like to point out jesus said i came to give you life but he didn't say i came to give you lifestyle.
That's a good point.
We have uh jeff in clinton township michigan who asks a question. Uh that i don't. You know i don't know if i ever asked you what your eschatology is today but jeff asks i assume that most word of faith folks adhere to a pre-millennial secret rapture eschatology.
How did you come to your current understanding of eschatology. And i will add to that what is it because i don't know what.
You're i don't know what you're. Yeah um that would be true that i've never heard anything but a dispensational approach to scripture in in the word of faith. Um i i'm racking my brains and i i can't remember anything of that.
My my current understanding um is that uh there are two ages uh there's this age and the age to come and i look at the book of revelation in its setting of um a very apocalyptic book. Um most of the things we really read of there is uh picture language when there's beasts with heads coming up out of the water out of the sea.
I don't think any of us are actually standing by san diego beach trying to see those things as a fulfillment of prophecy. And um it's speaking of um it's picture language a lot. And so i my current understanding is that the the revelation 20 which is the key passage regarding the millennium is it's speaking of a thousand year reign which is a figurative uh a figurative statement in a figurative blah millennial.
Uh in my approach to eschatology. By the way do you know what the difference is.
Between an optimistic amillennialist and a pessimistic amillennialist is no please tell me uh. An optimistic amillennialist is an ah millennialist. A pessimistic amillennialist is.
That's wonderful. I have this story of um a methodist a baptist and a word of faith guy and they all found themselves in hell and the story goes like this the method says i can't believe i'm here. I've helped the community at the children's church and i just can't believe i'm here.
I did everything according to methodism and i just i don't understand this. The baptist says well it's hard for you how much harder for me. That is funny. Now one of the things that i.
Want you to address before we run out of time is the disturbing similarity between word of faith theology and the occult. This whole idea of speaking things into existence. The the very practices that they promote very often sound like voodoo like casting spells.
Uh is this a stretch for me to be saying that am i overreaching or or going over the top in this.
This uh there's there's certainly many similarities. I i i mean here's what what's happened. They've they've built a skyscraper on a dime of real estate. Again here what what they've done is they've taken certain of the time and they've taken them in a very.
We'll take that. And it's so similar to the mind sciences and false religion that it's very creepy but and yet it comes from a mindset. They were. And they take mission and healing into our bodies and prosperity into our bank account.
And they've again seen some truth but have taken it to such an extreme that it becomes heretical to the point where it is unrecognizable from what is actually said and taught by scripture. There's nothing in romans 4 and not uh yet in existence so that we might have them.
But that's what happens when you have that mindset. You think that's what's being said there. But you read romans 4 in any translation and you have to do to try and come up with that. But when you've got the mentality that god gave adam in the garden dominion and he was to rule by the seeds of his words faith and you can with those glasses on which are faulty glasses you begin to find things that actually are not there in the scripture.
Would you say that there is specifically anything about the the word of faith uh theology that is absolutely damning that would prevent someone from entering eternal glory with christ.
Absolutely. And because of those that's such much much out of there there are also those who are.
The con men the con women like murdoch's and the paula white. Oh boy that mike murdoch he gives me the creeps right. That guy is all about money. That all about money right. And that there's.
Out there obvious there's not a christian expression in any way at all taking place. And so so the way to combat that is the light of god's word to see his truth to study the attributes of god. And i would just encourage people to as he's revealed himself in.
And the ramifications as the waves began to hit the shore i just thought oh there's a there's an interesting rock that's been thrown in but affect this doctrine. And that doctrine. And this one over here and that one over there.
And i began to see that god is not just sovereign in the area of sovereign and everything he's sovereign over the land over the thing that could happen some sparrow falling to the ground in the forest outside of god's direct control or in some way he was overseeing the whole thing.
And we need to embrace what scripture says and all that scripture says. And my argument with the word of faith is it's not the word of god that's being proclaimed but favorite parts of the word of god that there's nothing in the word of faith that can even understand the concept of martyrdom.
But you read revelation 12. I mean martyrdom doesn't go with having the best of this world. Does it right. Um the exact opposite. Yeah exactly you know but revelation chapter 12 speaks of those who are marketed as overcoming the devil not surrendering to him.
And it god is not punishing them and saying you know what you didn't speak life. And that's why you're dying today. But that's the concept of the word of faith. If i'm experiencing less less than god's perfection in this world i'm doing something wrong.
I need to learn more about the laws that govern this universe that god has put here. But revelation 12 again it's like the light comes on. They the believers overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their destiny.
And the rest of the verse says this and they loved their lives even unto death for god. And the word of faith movement that says only when we experience operating in true faith. That is not the case. So let's read all of our bibles the revelation.
That's not that are taken out of context death and life in the power of the tongue. Well sure it is. But we need to understand what that means and not build these skyscraper doctrines when there's.
Very little land on which to build. Praise god. Uh by the way. Um you know that i have organized over the years a number of public moderated theological debates most of them involving dr james r white our mutual friend.
Yes uh do you know. If any of these prominent people within the word of faith movement do debates do you think that there would be a likelihood that i would have success approaching any of them to do a public moderated debate.
I think you could try but.
My initial read able to hear the other side. Here's what i've heard people say in that movement based on uh romans 10 17 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god. They twist that and then say oral presentation of the word of faith.
They would not want a 20 minute presentation against it taking place because it could undermine people's faith so their very world view.
Well you know it seems that the the stark contrast uh exists of that that exists between reform theology the doctrines of sovereign grace which we would call the doctrines of the bible and the word of faith theology.
The the contrast couldn't be more palpable it couldn't be more obvious that that they in their theology diminish man i'm sorry diminish god and his status and power and exalt man in his status and power whereas the doctrines of grace the the gospel of the reformation the gospel that we would say is the the gospel of jesus christ and of the scriptures the gospel that the apostle paul proclaimed and that the greatest evangelists who have ever lived throughout history have proclaimed it.
It exalts god to his rightful place of authority over all things and reveals man's low state of helplessness of evil of sinfulness and of being entirely in need of god for a a transformation uh for a new heart for a new birth and that that our salvation and our christian life is owed 100 to the mercy and grace of god.
Whereas even if a word of faith pentecostal were to say that he owes it all to god it's clearly not consistent with their theology.
Absolutely you said that so well i would just want to repeat it except it would just be a repeat of what you said it's so so true i i think too the the bondage of those in the movement. I'm looking back on people and families that i supposedly ministered to and when someone uh received healing it was wonderful and i see just as much healing today because god is so merciful in answering prayers.
But i also um had to do funerals. I remember one of the first in fact the first funeral i did in the united states was of a 14 year old girl who uh fell off a horse and her head was dragged because her feet were caught in the stirrup shirt.
But every day what did the family do that allowed the devil. And it's the most horrible and horrific kind of bondage and legalism we said has brought death into the family. Because because the bible says death and life are in the power of the tongue which is not just an error.
That is uh just something that can be believed in the classroom and it has no ramifications and i look back with tears in my eyes of those i were not i was not able to help because my theology prevented me.
I couldn't come alongside them and just grieve um i couldn't come alongside them and say god has a purpose here because what was clear to us in that movement was the devil has reigned here. The devil has overcome us in some way we've let the devil in and that that's.
That's not only tragic but it's more than unhelpful. It's it's just uh barbaric and so uh the the movement itself is something i did urge every christian who can read a bible and says come out of her my people come out of her my people.
This is bondage this is in the in the effort to help people it actually brings the most vicious form of legalism to think your words caused the death of your child. And uh i want to look i wish i could look everybody i've ministered to in the eye and just say i'm sorry i didn't i didn't know what i didn't know.
But i'm on a quest now to just turn the light on that's why i'm writing a book to hopefully help people and come into the light where god is sovereign he's king he rules and reigns. And even if the devil has been in operation if christ is i would say i have to say he.
And i.
Different gods. You know before we go i just wanted to quote right from a transcript of kenneth copeland that i had brought up earlier the quote that you had not heard where where kenneth copeland could have atoned in his mind for the sins of man uh well this was from the audio book of hank hanegraaff's christianity in crisis where he had a recording of kenneth copeland and this is the written transcript of it.
The spirit of god spoke to me and he said son realize this now follow me in this don't let your tradition trip you up. He said think this way a twice born man whooped satan in his own domain and i threw my bible like that.
And i said what he said a born-again man defeated satan. The firstborn of many brethren defeated him. He said you are the very image and the very copy of that one. I said goodness gracious sakes alive.
I began to see what had gone on in there and i said well now you don't mean you couldn't dare mean that i could have done the same thing he said oh yeah if you'd normally had the knowledge of the word of god that he did you could have done the same thing because you're a reborn man too.
And that is the blasphemous quote from kenneth copeland that i was referring to before that you could hear for yourself on the audio book of christianity in crisis. But if you could in uh 45 seconds or so just to conclude pastor samson with what you want most etched in the hearts and minds of our.
Listeners today oh i'm still getting over this terrible nature of what you just said. I know my goodness. What what a quote. It's so blasphemous. I would just point people to the truth of god to study his word to cry out to god for his truth.
For anyone still involved in that movement um seek the word of god don't don't uh don't go anywhere but the the bible and allow what it says to permeate your mind filter down into your heart see god as he really is this majestic sovereign lord who and isaiah is one who brings everything he wills to pass.
He's not this lesser god who is just hoping that someone on earth can agree with him to allow the laws of the universe to be.
By their words. And we're out of time brother. And we're out of time. And your website. Your website is kingschurchaz .com kingschurchaz .com. Thank you eric nielsen for being my co-host today. And eric's church's website is communityefc .org communityefc .org.
We hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner. I hope you all have this very safe blessed and joyful and god-honoring weekend and lord's day.
We'll see you next time next week on iron sharpens iron radio.