August 12, 2016 Show with John Samson on “More on the Word of Faith Heresy”

Iron Sharpens Iron on the Word of Faith Heresy

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnson your host of Iron Sharpens Iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this 12th day of August 2016.

I'm so delighted to have my friend back on the program, Pastor John Sampson who is the pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona and he is a former Word of Faith Pentecostal and not only was he a pastor in that heretical movement but he was also a talk show host on the local Word of Faith affiliate of TBN, the Trinity Broadcasting Network which is an ironic name for a network that would air programming hosted by Oneness Pentecostals.

But our friend is originally from the United Kingdom now living in the wonderful nation that we call the United States of America and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back again to Iron Sharpens Iron, John Sampson.

Oh it's good to be with you Chris, always is, thank you. And co-hosting with me for the very first time ever is a man who is not only the new webmaster for Iron Sharpens Iron radio, thanks be to God, without him the program would probably not be on the air right now, and he is also an elder at the Community Evangelical Free Church in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois and he is Eric P. Nielsen.

It's great to have you in studio co-hosting for the very.

First time Eric. Thanks Chris, it's good to be here at the Iron Sharpens Iron studios. And if.

You could Eric let our listeners know more about yourself before we move on to Pastor John. Okay.

As you said I'm an elder at the Community Evangelical Free Church of Champaign-Urbana. We are a fairly small church but we love the doctrines of grace and we love the gospel and we love missions. Ever since I started going to the church we've met in a gym and the reason that we do that is we want to try and put a large portion of our budget towards reaching unreached.

People groups with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Great. And he is also Eric is also a mutual friend of Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Rich Pierce who is the president of Alpha and Omega Ministries and also a member a fairly new member of the church where our guest John Sampson is the pastor and Eric has done some internet work and other things like that for Alpha and Omega Ministries in the past.

And it's such a pleasure to finally meet him face to face after having many phone and internet conversations with him and having him come to the rescue when Jason Delgado a dear dear brother in Christ who was the initial webmaster for Iron Sharpens Iron had to step down due to overwhelming family commitments including the passing of a very young adopted son who had a rare skin disease an adopted son from Russia.

And I ask of you to continue to pray for the Delgado family as I'm sure they are still mourning the loss of this precious child that they adopted. But and we thank Jason Delgado from the bottom of our hearts for creating such a beautiful website and hope that Jason can be involved with the program in some way again at some point in the future.

John Sampson’s Background and How He Came Out of Word of Faith

But Pastor John Sampson if you could I know that you've already been on this program if you could let our listeners know something about your background in England how you came here to the United States and how you became involved in what is known as the word of faith ministries or theology we would call it word of faith heresy now I always did but you just started to but I don't know several years ago.

But uh but if you could tell us something about.

Your background. Well how far back do you want to go. I was. I was born very close to my mother and then we kind of drifted apart and very quickly was swept up in movement and was very impressed with some of the things I saw around and actually went after maybe 90 percent of the lectures were reformed but they never told me why and they never went through the scriptures with me as to what it is they believed.

And then why. And after bible college rather than entering the ministry with that particular denomination uh joined a gentleman by the name of Harry Greenwood who was probably without too much doubt the leading word of faith preacher in the United Kingdom.

Might be some who would who would dispute that but he was certainly number one or number two and I was his assistant. And it was really an amazing time of nine months of traveling with him and maybe I'd speak for 10 minutes and then he'd carry on and all the places we went to which were out of the United Kingdom India Australia and New Zealand and then the United States here.

But uh came over to America to actually start a church and it would be certainly a word of faith church. And uh only in time has the Lord brought me out and that's something of a story I've shared before.

But that's something of my background.

Defining Word of Faith as Over-Realized Eschatology and a Sovereignty Problem

And it'd probably be a good idea for us to get some of the main uh areas of belief that would separate a word of faith Pentecostal from uh more mainstream uh Pentecostals and some of the major denominations or even independent charismatic churches that are more in alignment with biblical orthodoxy.

And as we were saying before the program we have to be careful that we're not slandering brethren in Christ by broad brushing Pentecostals and charismatics with the with this label because there are I know personally Pentecostal ministers and members of Pentecostal churches and charismatic churches that are equally appalled and disgusted with the word of faith movement.

Some perhaps even more so because they are very often broad brushed along with them since they are charismatic. But um let me let me before you even do that. Let me give our email address out. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside of the USA. And uh please only remain anonymous. If it's a personal private matter perhaps you don't want to offend someone that you know and love who is a word of faith believer.

Perhaps you're in a church that's word of faith and you're thinking of leaving. Or there's some reason that you want to remain anonymous. We will grant that request. But if you can we prefer that you identify at least your first name city and state and country of residence.

So going back to the the main areas that would separate word of faith theology from your typical mainstream Pentecostal and charismatic churches. Yeah that's a very good question. And.

It's something it's it's very hard to answer in just a a minute or two but in two words i would say over-realized eschatology which is a technical way of talking to speak of everything that is on the cross.

It would be seen in the word of faith movement as he went to the cross for all of our sin all of our sickness all of our disease the curse from us. And yet in all of our pools he is lord over when he brings that promise to pass i could say to a child of mine i i will get you three years from now.

Lowercase sense over watch over that movement. It's all now. It's available now. And if you're not receiving it there's something wrong with you or you're not working the system or you need more knowledge of the laws of the universe that god has put in.

Confess this look back with a lot of sad people talk about in the word of faith movement. So it's an entire worldview. Light of jesus has gone to the cross for all of us and we can receive all of it. Now man's been given the keys hide by what you and i say.

And you're inviting the devil into your life with his sicknesses. And you'll have what you say. And you know this chris in many other areas too the greatest lies are built on some truth. Words are extremely powerful.

They can bring death and life to any relationship and that's really the context in which those words. There's the meaning in proverbs. But the word of faith takes i can't say that you can't say i'm catching a cold worldview.

That is certainly not true of many in what we would call the spectrum of movement which is and you used the phrase before i just.

Wanted to make sure that people didn't misunderstand what you meant when you said realized eschatology. There is a heretical group uh that we would call hyper preterists. Yeah they would call themselves uh sometimes uh believers in covenant eschatology realized eschatology or sometimes they just call themselves preterists.

But they are confusing the issue with those who are partial preterists who have a biblical view of the visible physical return of christ and the resurrection of the dead. But most of these word of faith uh main spokesmen if you will for that movement they would believe in at least uh some kind of a future return of christ.

I'm assuming. Yes that's true. That's a good point to make. Yep all right. And uh well the what some of the things that uh you uh have actually laid out that are going to be possible chapter headings in a book that you are working on that may be published in the not so distant future on this issue which i'm eagerly looking forward to get a hold of.

But one of the uh chapter headings uh at least that you are envisioning is buy the truth and sell it not. And uh how much do you uh want to know the truth etc. Uh if you're not willing to send a a televangelist money uh you're not worthy of a blessing and god will not give you one and so on.

But if you could tell us about that title.

Buying the Truth, Selling It Not, and the Sovereignty of God

Yeah the buy the truth and sell it not it's it's a verse from the book of proverbs that basically is outlining the fact that sell all you have to get it. And many of the people i talk to on this issue i have a closed mind and i'm not open to hear scripture on this.

Uh the fact is the word of faith seems to at first glance at least in a shallow way base its entire teaching on scripture. They're always telling people that they're word people word of god people. But looking back i can see it was favorite word of god people.

There were verses that are taken out of their setting out of their context. And you can build a huge skyscraper type doctrine on a little literally a dime of real estate. There's not much to it. But you take a verse buying the truth means i want to know what god says.

I want to know all that he says. I want to receive everything he's revealed about himself in the bible. And what we should do as as christians is when we learn of the enormous sovereignty of god over all things what we should do is not forget that when we're talking about other issues.

And what we do as reform people is not forget that. And in a systematic theology we on page one two or three we would mention god's sovereignty. And when we come to page 32 which talks about man and salvation and all of that we shouldn't forget the fact that he's sovereign.

He's sovereign in salvation. He's sovereign over all his works. And one of the key themes that is rejected by word of faith is the sovereignty of god. It cannot handle that. In fact i heard one uh word of faith preacher name is andrew warmack say and he's a gentleman who stayed at my home.

By the way i had him many times as a guest preacher at our church. He's actually calling that the teaching of the sovereignty of god the greatest heresy confronting the body of christ at this time. Wow it's it's it.

The the lines are drawn a god who is sovereign versus a god who in his sovereignty has given man dominion. And we work off god in our life by what we believe say man is in control and god in his sovereignty has handed the keys of the car to man and said now you do deal with it as you will.

You have life as you want it. I've showed you i've i've shown you what i want. Now it's up to you now i was just.

Curious since uh that uh proverbial statement from the scriptures buy the truth and sell it not uh is is that a common scripture that is twisted by the word of faith in order to get people to give money in order to be blessed by the.

I've not really heard that. Perhaps that is out there.

Um i'm i'm not sure on that one. Where i'm coming from is is that just the heartfelt desire that only god can put inside the soul is i want to know the truth. And you read uh proverbs four and it's not a casual acquaintance with the truth it's it's crying out for understanding.

It's god. Show me show me who you really are show me what your word teaches. And um but that could be a scripture. That is uh very well misused. I'm not so aware of that one. Okay. Well one of the things.

That strikes me as something that would differentiate word of faith pentecostals from a more uh historic um pentecostals old school pentecostals and some charismatic folks even because as you know there are even reformed churches that are continuists or non-cessationists some even will call themselves charismatic uh who would militate against word of faith pentecostalism very much and even even declare it that it's heresy.

But one of the things that seems to differentiate them the word of faith folks from the other pentecostals and charismatics that you and i would have more in common with is the uh greed being a really central motivating factor in what you want from god to make you a happier person in this on this earth.

It seems it's a very greed driven uh theology whereas you may have some very humble uh and poor even pentecostal and charismatic folks who are very content with what they have. They they are just saying and i believe that they are misinterpreting scripture since i am a cessationist.

But they are just saying we are really just defending the inerrancy of the scripture. We see in the scripture that there were miracles performed by the apostles and the believers in jesus's day. And in the days of the apostolic era when the bible was written we see no reason for these miracles to cease if god is the same yesterday today and forever.

We believe that these things are for us today as the church and to them it validates the inerrancy of scripture. And that is really uh it's almost like they were reacting to the liberalism and the dead orthodoxy perhaps of dry protestantism and evangelicalism that had lost its vibrancy and its passion.

And so there were there were at least some i think some good motivations in the origins of these movements. I just obviously disagree. But right. But they would these these folks would also look upon the the obvious palatable uh or should i say palpable uh greed of the um of the word of faith folks.

They would look at that as being something repugnant and far into their own theology. Well but would i be right on saying that that is a hallmark it seems of word of faith. Theology is green. Yeah you're absolutely right the gentleman.

I was with harry creamer had a different bench in that he would uh define prosperity in a way different from most of the word of faith folk out there. He would say god's prosperity is not measured by how much we have but how much we're able to give is a little different.

Pat. But in general you're absolutely right. That would be a defining thing. And greed is central although it's never admitted. But that's exactly what is the case. Just on that in my own thinking i when i when i came to see the deception of it um and and see it see its harshness and cruelty.

Oh you know we have the proverbial little old lady who's sending her ten dollar check in to tbn or to the preachers she's seen on tv. And it's these very very nasty um preachers who are like wolves who are devouring people in this way on the giver's part.

Given his hundreds you're giving your thousands. God will give in his thousands. And both are motivated by not merely the one with the wrong motivation it can be the the giver as well. Although giving is a good thing it can be false motivation.

Second in the four is a key scripture. For the time is coming when people will not end the teaching. But having itching ears they'll accumulate for themselves. Theology propagate everything. So they will teach us having itching ears for themselves teachers not merely the false teacher who has the false motivation.

We have a listener in mastic beach long island. Tyler.

Who asks is the word of faith movement a byproduct of the more heretical side of the charismatic movement. And his second question is should we be more understanding to god-fearing brothers who are.

Continuists or continualists. I would say yes to both uh questions. The the word of faith is a subsection of the charismatic movement. There's not a word of faith uh preacher like as well. But charismatic is.

The gifts of the holy spirit that were present in the first century are still in operation now. That's precise if you wanted to spend more time on that. But uh certainly that is the case. The the word of faith springs out of the charismatic section.

Um that the second part uh if.

You can remind me of the question what what was that. Uh. Well it's something that we really were saying at the outset of the program that uh we can't we shouldn't he's saying should we be more understanding yeah towards our god-fearing uh continualist brethren.

And then of course not all continualists even uh prefer uh to be identified as charismatic like for instance john piper. Yeah who is a continualist he doesn't personally speak in tongues but he just believes that they are possible today.

Yeah that the gift is that the gift that the miraculous sign gift is possible. So you have all different kinds of levels of continualism or continuism. Uh and uh so he just he was saying should we be more understanding about toward them.

And i do know uh some of my fellow reformed brethren and reformed baptist brethren who have very little or no tolerance towards charismatics. They would some of them would say and this would probably be a minority of of reformed christians.

But some of them would even say that they were not saved that they could not be regenerate and hold to these views. And of course there are some fundamentalists who would have that kind of an opinion of them.

But uh you i mean you believe that you are actually a born.

Again believer when you are in this movement don't you i do. But that's barely that's in terms of my my understanding of what a christian is is someone who embraces the gospel and has a correct view of god.

Even though we're growing in our knowledge all the time there's no. Um there's an acceptance of god as trinity. There's a acceptance of christ as fully god fully man. And my views on that haven't changed as hasn't my view on repentance and faith.

And repentance is not something that is in any way stressed in the faith movement. But i was certainly believing that what what i understand is that there are some doctrines that are damnable as second peter talks about.

There are damnable heresies. Heresies that are that is believed will damn the soul. This is these are things like the deity of christ. Jesus made it clear unless you believe that i am you will die in your sins he said.

So that's people say doctrine is not important. Absolutely. It is according to jesus you've got to believe the right thing about jesus got to believe the right thing about god. Um we don't have to be elite theologians.

But we shouldn't deny these central uh components of the faith. There is a difference between embracing the gospel and then some of these uh i would say lesser doctrines. Although every doctrine is important some are damnable and some are just errors that should be avoided.

No one should want to embrace error. None of us believe we do errors that are so severe they are damnable. I don't believe that those who are charismatic who also embrace the true god and the true gospel.

The Trinity, Christ’s Deity, and Damnable Heresies

Uh as far as the deity of christ uh does the typical word of faith preacher pass the litmus test on that because i know that they do believe in the trinity but they have a very warped and strange understanding of it.

Like they i know that they believe that god the father at least some of the prominent ones like kenneth copeland god the father has a physical body just like the mormons believe. And uh you know jesus christ became a demon on the cross and was punished in hell uh after leaving the cross after after dying and um and uh was actually the first born again man in hell that jesus actually required a rebirth or a new birth and things like that that would seem to militate against orthodox understanding of the trinity.

You're absolutely right. What. What we to answer your question is to say it depends who you ask there are. There are people in the movement who have an absolutely sound understanding. Um but that's more and more rare as i'm looking from the outside now.

But there are people like in england a gentleman who's very prominent is a man called colin urquhart he's a former church of england vicar author of a book that was very popular way back called when the spirit comes and he would have a very orthodox view on on some of those things but still be considered part of the word of faith movement.

Um but there's uh people like uh the kenneth copeland you've said and and i i shudder when i hear what he says and what i was even aware of some of the things he said while i was still in the movement.

Here's here's why i stayed in. There's no a central headquarters there's no scrutiny or surveillance. So you don't get a letter from tulsa or somewhere else saying hey we heard you taught this on sunday.

What about that you need to answer to us. There's there's no such thing going on. And although many people ridicule denominations they do have standards and they do call pastors and preachers to account and say what is this.

We're hearing your teaching. That doesn't happen within that movement and so i could stay in the movement and say oh my goodness can't believe someone like him said that i'm glad i don't and then just move on because there's no calling to account.

So if you can see that if you put every false statement together of every word of faith teacher you can provide hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of of material. But i can still stay in the movement because i think i don't believe that.

I don't believe that he said this. I don't believe that she said this. I don't believe that. It's very hard.

And of course uh there are those who are independent autonomous churches or should i say who lead them or are in them independent autonomous churches like most baptists would be. Uh the reform baptist movement is predominantly made up of independent and autonomous churches.

But they would be very quick if if a person professing to be a reform baptist was publicly teaching some kind of dangerous thing they would be really uh very public in disassociating them for themselves from this individual.

And there are organizations like the association of reform baptist churches of america and yeah and a new one that has started the reform baptist network and who would be very quick to uh remove churches like that from membership in their their associations and uh.

And of course uh i think reform baptist may be too quick on the trigger to to condemn their their fellow brethren at times. Uh perhaps they're they're overly uh uh judgmental if you will about a brother who disagrees on areas that should not cause division.

But it seems that when we we being christians on the planet earth prior to being in glory with christ we're always going to be messing something up here. We're either going to be erring on the left or the right.

And very few of us are going to get it just exactly uh correct in regard to being too soft or too judgmental or harsh on a good point very good.

Point only in heaven will we truly understand that chris armson was right.

Well i have people reminding me almost daily after every show that that's not true. But anyway we're going to a break right now and we do have a listener in scotland waiting for his question to be asked.

Uh murray in kinross scotland. I hope you'll be patient and we'll get to your question after we return from the break. Uh i don't know if you've ever been to or have ever uh heard of kinross scotland.

Uh pastor john i think i've been there but i'm not sure if i actually been there. But uh nowhere. It is for sure all right. Great. Well we're going to be right back after these messages. If you'd like to join those that have sent in questions uh with a if you'd like to join them by writing your own question and emailing it to us.

Our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com chris arnson at gmail .com. And please give us your first name city and state and country of residence. If you live outside of the good old usa we'll be right back after these messages.

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Hebrews 13, Suffering with Christ, and the Reproach of the Cross

Welcome back. This is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in. Today's guest on iron sharpens iron as you just heard in that ad is charles haddon spurgeon is with us today. He has departed from glory temporarily to be our guest today and discuss a very important subject but obviously i jest that a voice that you heard in that commercial for solid grand christian books who was depicting um charles haddon spurgeon was indeed our guest.

John sampson of the king's church in peoria arizona. We are talking about the word of faith movement. If you'd like to join us on the air with your own question. Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com. And before we go to our listener in kenross scotland murray uh with his question i just want to announce that the g3 conference is going to be held in atlanta georgia january 19th through the 21st.

And god willing i chris arnzen of iron sharpens iron will be there with an exhibitors booth. And i am so excited about this because this is one of the largest rosters of phenomenal speakers at any conference i have ever heard of and i've interviewed over half of these men in the past on this program and i'm looking forward to god willing interviewing all of them if i can.

Uh these speakers include paul washer who i have not interviewed yet and i'm hoping to stephen j lawson who's been on this program many times uh dr d .a carson who's been on this program. Vody balkan who i hope to interview at some point but i have met him and he expressed interest in being a guest on iron sharpens iron of course my friend for many years.

Dr james r white of alpha omega ministries who has been on this program very often in fact was my very first guest ever on iron sharpens iron. Tim chalice uh who is going to be on the program uh for the very first time very shortly within the next uh few weeks in fact and i will uh give you all an update on what date that is as soon as i get my calendar open and look at that uh conrad and bayway who is probably the most powerful preacher on the planet earth right now.

He is a friend of mine since 1995 he's been on this program and he has preached at the congregation where i was formerly a member on long island. He is currently the pastor of kabwata baptist church in lusaka zambia africa.

And you if you are able to hear him preach anywhere i would advise you to do everything that you can to make it to uh the venue where he is preaching because he is a truly extraordinarily gifted man of god uh phil johnson who has probably been on this show more than any other guest uh maybe he rivals steve camp who had been on quite a number of times on this broadcast especially the older version of iron sharpens iron.

But phil johnson uh who is the executive director of grace to you ministries the ministry of john macarthur he is on this roster. Josh bice who i just recently interviewed on the program he is actually the one orchestrating this event.

And rosaria butterfield who is a former leftist lesbian who came to christ and is now married to a presbyterian pastor. She has renounced her wicked uh life prior to her regeneration and has written very prolifically about it and speaks in conferences and so on uh letting those there know how the lord miraculously rescued her from the ideology of leftism and also the sexual perversion of homosexuality.

Uh she is also returning to the iron sharpens iron program again very shortly. Todd freel of wretched radio who is going to be on my program this coming monday god willing to discuss his book stressed out.

And uh we hope that you join us for that program as well. And uh john kratz i've interviewed him on the program in the past looking forward to that again. And a number of others. If you'd like more information on the g3 conference go to g3 conference .com g3 conference .com and it's g and the number three conference .com.

And i hope to see you there uh at the exhibit at my exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron at the g3 conference now i know the place is going to be jam-packed because people know i'm going to be there.

So they're going to sell out. So they're going to sell out of tickets very shortly. I'm sure um but anyway why isn't anybody laughing. I guess i should be happy they're not. They're not laughing. Um let's go to our uh guest.

Or should i say our listener in kinross scotland. Uh murray says uh let's see. Apologies if this was asked earlier in the show. But how would word of faith teachers interpret bearing his reproach in hebrews 13 13.

Any idea on that. John i'd have to look it up. Um while you're looking it up let me just give out our email address again. It's chris arnzen at gmail .com. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own chris arnzen at gmail .com.

C-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. And also murray. If you're still listening i would uh like to know where in england you lived before you moved to scotland. Because murray in a previous program when he was asking a question uh identified himself as a brit who actually moved to scotland.

So he's not a native scotsman. And perhaps you two lived not far apart from each other when he was in england who knows. But have you located that that verse. Uh brother. And do you have any comments on any particular.

Yeah. Yeah it's. It's a verse that says therefore.

Let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. And um it's it's a phrase that you see something of in hebrews 11 as well which speaks of moses considering the reproach of christ greater wealth greater riches than the treasures of egypt.

And here it's talking about the of the world thing and a useless thing to serve christ. And certainly moses was aware of the fact that by choosing for the people of god with israel and he would be receiving the reproach of egypt they would look on him with scorn.

I think that's what it's talking about here in hebrews 13 as well. Let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. The verse in hebrews 11 which similar wording speaks of the reproach of christ or the reproach of belonging to christ and the the call of commitment to christ means the world is not going to stand on the sidelines and applaud.

There's going to be ridiculed there's going to be scorn uh sent in our way uh thrown our way. So i think that's really what it's talking about so i'm not sure why.

Murray asked that question in relationship to word of faith believers but perhaps he means by that if you are if you're if the word of faith theology is true you're going to live a life free of that kind of negative reaction.

Or maybe he is saying that we are the ones guilty of attacking these people that are truly presenting the gospel. I'm not really sure why murray used that verse. I'd need to kind of fly back and say well murray.