R.C. Sproul and Mel Duncan

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

The Freedom of the Will and the Sovereignty of God

And good afternoon evening. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. And I know today that most people are tuning in not to listen to me whatsoever but to our special guests today, so I will Forgo the normal opening commentary and bring online with me The gentleman that you all want to listen to and that is dr. R. C. Sproul.

Dr. Sproul. How are you doing today? Hey James, it's great to talk with you again. Now. I have a question that I think everybody That I know of is most interested in finding out and it's normally one of those questions you ask in polite conversation.

But this time everybody really wants to know how are you?

Very well, I'm in better health now, and I have been probably in 15-year James it with the notable exception of a bad wheel. I have a Bad knee and I'm scheduled for total knee replacement surgery next Thursday.

I can't wait for it.

Oh my next Thursday. Yeah well, all I can say is hopefully dry heat is good for knee replacements because. That's what you're gonna get when you come to Scottsdale in late September. The monsoons should be over.

So the humidity should be gone and the highs well I hate to tell you we've had it as high as a hundred and three on October 23rd.

So I've been out there before but you know the dry heat so much better than what we have here here. We don't know what dry heat is. No just what heat.

Well, it's hopefully it'll be very good for you. And hopefully you'll have a wonderful time out in in Scottsdale now I'm looking at the lineup that you have put together for the conference the 26th and 27th of September out at Scottsdale Bible Church and I'm seeing a bit of a theme here.

You are speaking on if God is sovereign How can man be free in the evening session the first night and then in the afternoon? What is the gospel so that sounds to me? Like you're going to be addressing are you are you going to be addressing I guess would be the way I put it some of the more common objections to Reform theology in those titles.

Yes, not only to reform theology James But also to the Christian faith in general as well. Okay. Now I recall very very clearly Reading I Was about to as you got to remember since I wrote the Potter's freedom There's another chosen book in my life not chosen by God, but Some other one that I forget the title at the moment.

But anyway, I remember very clearly in reading chosen by God a Line that you used at that time when you spoke of man's freedom and God's freedom. You said God is free man is free. God is more free than I am when my freedom runs into God's freedom I lose.

And I appreciate the fact that you express that without quite the long Sentences that Brother Edwards used to express a similar concept. Nobody ever said it better than Edward. No, that's true. But I I'm one I sort of wonder if more people have read your explanation than his because it's much more accessible In in the same number of years since it was written, but the first talk you're going to be giving a lot of folks hear you on the radio and They know something about this Reformed theology business and yet most the time their objections have to do with the concept of man's will is that.

Are those the people you you want to reach there? Oh sure. I mean, this is one of the most Constant questions that I hear all the time as I'm sure you're aware of James that I've never met a Christian in my life who said that they didn't believe in the sovereignty of God but the idea that's pervasive out there in the culture is that God's sovereignty is limited by human freedom.

And of course if that were the case then it's not God who would be sovereign, but we would be sovereign. On the contrary we would say yes that the human freedom is real. But it's limited and it is always and everywhere limited by that.

We have to place the limitation At the proper point. The other problem that I think that all Christians wrestle with particularly in America Is that when we talk about free will? We tend to fill that concept with Notions that we have been taught from the time we are children not realizing that the Common and popular understanding of free will is not the Christian view.

But is a humanistic secular view, you know. The common view of free will is that that we have the ability equal ability Good or or evil that there's no Inclination tendency or bias that restricts the expression of our choices and As I say, that's a secular view of free will.

It's not the biblical view. The biblical view says that we still have a capacity for choosing. We still have the power to choose what we want to but the fundamental problem is that the want to is in bondage to sin and.

And so anytime you talk about willing from a Christian perspective you have to account for this.

Bondage of which the scripture speaks. Well now, let me ask you you have been Ministering the word many more years than I have. I'm Catching up percentage-wise, but I never will in any other way and I have noticed so I'd like to get your take on this.

I have noticed that it certainly seems to me like coming through the front door of the church is an a veritable flood of worldly thinking. So many in the church today do not have a purposely formed Christian worldview and As such they bring the very concepts.

You're just speaking in regards to the freedom of the will and things like that. They bring it right into their Interpretation of the Christian faith. Have you seen? a trend toward that that makes it for each passing decade that much more necessary to cover the basics and to Challenge people to have a biblical worldview because it's so invasive within the church without question James.

I really believe that every one of us no matter how well-trained we may be in theology or how Devoted we are in our personal faith. We're exposed every day to all kinds of ideas that are on a collision course with the biblical truth and We we don't always recognize them.

And I think all of us have allowed Certain ideas to creep into our thinking uncritically and one of the goals of the Christian life is to gain the mind of Christ. That means that Every value that I have every concept that I have every viewpoint that I Spouse I have to keep examining according to.

Now you.

You are involved of course in the ministry of the church. You're involved with being obedient in that way as we're all called to be that way. Wouldn't you? Agree that really. That's where God has intended that kind of Remedial Reformation being conformed the image of Christ resisting the pressures of the world.

Isn't that first and foremost to be found in the proclamation of God's Word within the church?

Well To my in my 45 years of teaching James. I I haven't been able to find any other place To root that and I think this is one of the great weaknesses of the church today is that we're looking everywhere else Except to the word to find answers to our questions and and Resolutions to the difficulties that we face.

I think we've in many cases We've lost confidence not only in the truth of the Word of God But in the power of the Word of God, I keep telling my students in ministry That's where the power is. The power isn't in programs.

The power is not in education. The power is not in eloquence. The power is in the word because that's where God.

Hi, I'm resisting Saying too many amens here because I'm a Reformed Baptist. We don't really do that, but If that's the one thing I have to complain about about Reformed Baptist is we do not amen enough.

It just it would really help me out when I'm preaching to but well if you guys don't have it in the Reformed Baptist I mean, what do you think? It's like?

You're God's frozen chosen somebody callers out. Amen in my church. I stopped. Thank you very much. I.

Know exactly what you mean by that, but you know when when you say when you were just speaking of a lack of confidence in the ministry of the word the authority of the word the power of the word and I would say could we could we criticize ourselves?

Could we criticize Reformed people that in some ways we tend to be afraid of speaking of the power of the spirit? Likewise being so absolutely necessary for the successful preaching of the word.

You know, there may be a lot of truth in that and it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You know. Nobody's name is more closely identified with historic Reformed theology than John Calvin. A lot of people like to keep that a secret because he's been so vilified but among other things Calvin was described as the theologian of the Holy Spirit.

Calvin really drove the point constantly that the preaching of the word is impotent and less that it is accompanied by the spirit and I know every every time I preach every Sunday morning and Sunday night James and before every message I pray for the spirits power to descend and it's not a rote thing.

I Make that prayer because I understand that my words will be useless unless the spirit accompanies the word and Reformed theology puts a great deal of emphasis on regeneration on Rebirth, that's where the sovereignty of God is most powerfully Influenced and affected by the spirit's power to change the disposition of the heart.

So of all people Who should be? Proclaiming the power of the spirit. It should be reformed people, right? Right and yet you.

Certainly have to have been just as. The only term I can use is is shocked to read so many Non-reformed men who When you proclaim the freedom of God and bring about regeneration you proclaim The power of the spirit and taking out the heart of stone giving a heart of flesh.

The terminology that is often used to in essence disagree and I have a hard time not saying sometimes mock that freedom of God saying that that God is Engaging in divine rape or he's he's rewiring us against our will so on and so forth it it truly Concerns me when I when I hear that kind of response to the assertion that it's God through the preaching of the word the power of the spirit is Glorifying himself through the gospel and drawing his people unto himself and to see people treat it that way.

Do you ever? Do you ever have opportunity of talking with some of those folks and saying What in the world are you talking about when you say that kind of thing?

I sure I wish that every Christian who is struggling with this question would just be flying the wall listening in to a Conversation that's recorded in the Bible in the same chapter where we have drawn 316 in the discussion between Nicodemus and Where Jesus talks about being born again?

Now when Jesus talks to Nicodemus about rebirth, he makes it clear that there's a necessary condition That has to have person before they come to saving faith our Lord. It's our Lord not John Calvin or Paul or anybody else.

It's just Jesus. This is unless a man is oh the spirit He can't even see the kingdom and yet we have multitudes of Christian people who are out there saying That you can come to faith born again the whole idea is that you have faith and then as a result of your faith or the result of your Decision the result of your choice just the opposite of what Jesus says.

Jesus says we're born in the flesh and the flesh can do nothing and that which is born of the flesh is flesh and the Necessary condition for saving faith is Rebirth, you know, Jesus reiterates that in the sixth chapter of John when he says nobody can come to me Unless it is given to him by the Father.

And so I think the great line of division Historically on this point of theology is the order Does faith come and then rebirth or does rebirth come and then faith? I believe as you know James that Rebirth precedes Didn't nobody would ever Manifest saving faith because until we're born again.

We're in the flesh 100 in the flesh and as Jesus indicated the flesh prophets nothing and Luther Reiterated that by saying that nothing is not a little something.

Well, I know that I have Taken a lot of heat for saying similar things in regards to the logical precedence of regeneration to saving faith, but That's okay. We'll continue to take that that heat as we as we look to what the scriptures say about the gospel but it really takes us back to The upcoming conference in September because you're going to be finishing things up By talking about what is the gospel now?

Is that? You know you have been over your career involved in so many discussions about so many aspects of the gospel. Is this are you going to be addressing a particular aspect here or is this more general?

What what direction are you playing on going when you saw that subject?

Let me back just go back a little bit of several years ago at the National bookseller Christian booksellers Convention the Christian organization Took a poll on the floor of the convention where they asked people there and these were people who were in Christian publishing or owners of bookstores people who were Not secular and not on the edges of the face of the Christian Church.

But we're right in the middle of Christian education. They asked a simple question. What is the gospel. Ask people to define it and The the ratio that they got was that about one out of a hundred answers was regarded as a Question what is the gospel?

Everybody hears the word. Everybody seems to think they know what the gospel is. You ask people. What is the gospel and they'll say it means that you can have purpose in your life or that Jesus can be your Savior and You can have Forgiveness and all of these wonderful things that are the consequences of the gospel.

But from a biblical perspective there is a clear content to that idea of gospel in the New Testament and the fundamental content has to do With what has been accomplished in the life and death of Jesus?

The gospel is what Christ who Christ is what he has done and how we receive the benefits of his work through faith alone and. So we need to go back to the fundamentals here to understand people say I'm in the gospel ministry.

But they don't even know what the gospel is. I teach doctoral ministry program and I'll do the same thing I'll ask the clergy there Tell me what the gospel is and they fumble all over the place and they don't get it that there is a defined content in the New Testament about the gospel of Jesus you said something.

Many years ago that again has stuck with me. For a long long time, but it really bothers a lot of people. I don't don't mean to Upset you to inform you that you've said things that bother people. So Something tells me here.

You're fully aware of that fact and I very much appreciate your willingness to do that, but You you like to sometimes turn things on their head things that have been sort of accepted traditionally turn them upside down to make people think and Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty certain it was you that said.

The question is not what will you do with Christ? The question is what will Christ do with you? And that is so counter to so much of the What's called? Evangelicalism today that it truly causes people to stop and think and many people find that Offensive.

And yet what you just said about the gospel sounds to me like you're saying look the gospel is about what God has accomplished in Christ first and Foremost.

So that's the way you stated that thing that I turned upside down. I would just like to just hone that a little bit. Basically what I've said in that context is in the final analysis. The question is not do you know Jesus?

But this Jesus know you and I draw that from the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapter 7 when Jesus said that many will come to him on the last day. Saying the Lord Lord didn't we do this in your name didn't we do that in your name and he's gonna look at them and say Who are you?

Depart from me. I never knew you and The reason I think that's so urgent is is this James that? One of the big problems we have in our zeal for evangelism. And I wish we had even more zeal for evangelism than we do, but we want so much So desperately to see our friends and loved ones and even our people who we've never met before come to a saving knowledge of Christ that we kind of try to prime the pump and encourage them to make a decision for Christ and Get them to make a profession.

We have multitudes of people who profess Jesus. They come to the altar. They raise their hand. They say their prayer. And of course, we're supposed to make a profession of faith, but the biblical doctrine of justification is not justification by the profession of faith.

But it's justification by the possession of it and Jesus gives that alarming warning one of the scariest things He ever does he says look these people honor me with their lips. But their hearts are far from me a person who's truly converted not only profess professes faith in Christ.

He has faith in Christ and his life is changed. You know, you hear all this stuff about the carnal Christian the person who is really saved. But his life doesn't change and you can't find that in the Bible.

That's nonsense. That's a theology. That's been Created to account for false professions.

Most definitely and when you look at the result in the church of filling the church with people who have No concept of the holiness of God. They have no concept of their own sin. They have no concept of Repentance toward God.

Can there be a more? Terrible thing than to instruct a man to go and try to minister the life of God to Spiritually dead people. I mean how many people have you seen over your lifetime. Who? Had a desire to go into ministry.

They encounter that and now they now they do computers they do something.

You know completely different than that because number I heard was 16 ,000 pastors every year leave the ministry. Oh my. There's a wide variety of reasons for that, but that's a huge number.

It is a huge number and I think part of it part of that number we can't know what is due to the the tremendous trial of trying to Lead an unregenerate flock. And there is so much pressure and I I don't you you know, the the Presbyterian Church is better than I do.

I know that Recently a lot of attention was focused on the Southern Baptist Convention and the fact that their baptism numbers are are down. And there's discussion about a the passage of a you know Resolution at the convention actually promoting the idea of church discipline.

What an amazing thing that was and and yet there is such a a pressure Placed upon especially young pastors to in essence quote-unquote perform. But but is there anybody out there? Telling these young pastors that there's the standard that they have to reach for is that which?

They will bring before the throne of God not the numbers standards that the denomination might be coming up with.

The Need for a Biblical Worldview in the Church

Well, you know the organization called together for the gospel, which is an alliance of several leaders including John Piper and John MacArthur and lig Duncan and Al Mohler and I'm involved in this every other year we have conferences for clergy and This past year. I believe we had like 5 ,000 of them there James and the amazing thing to me was the vast majority of these clergy were in their 20s and early 30s.

And so I was very much encouraged by this young group of pastors who are coming up and they're being Informed about what biblical preaching is and and what the role of the pastor is. You have the Shepherds Conference that John MacArthur runs out there, you know, and he gets five or six thousand ministers to that and He's encouraging them to be expository preachers and to focus the on the ministry of the word, you know in a secular world where the ministers expected to be a CEO a guidance counselor And every other thing instead of principally being a shepherd of the word.

Mm-hmm.

Most definitely and I think so many people I see it in teaching in seminary so many of those young men are extremely conflicted because they see what the word says that there's what they're supposed to be doing and yet the church does require them to wear so many different hats and to do so many different things that That they are truly torn and as a result unfortunately frequently take the shortcuts when it comes to sermon preparation and when that becomes Necessary to keep the numbers up.

It's it's a sad thing to it's a sad thing to see now our times running out with you. I just wanted to Give you one last opportunity when you are going to be speaking in Scottsdale and you're going to be addressing What is the gospel?

Would this be something that we would want to bring people to who maybe have Some misunderstandings concerning the nature of God's grace concerning maybe have some inflated views of man's role in regards to Salvation.

Is this something we'd want to make sure that they they hear. Well, let me tell you what what what all of the different.

Questions we're going to be addressed. The first one is has science disproved the existence of God. The second one why does God allow so much suffering and evil. The third one is if God is sovereign How can man be free?

The next one is is Jesus the only way. The next one is should the church embrace post-modernism and then finally What is the gospel. So you can see there's a variety of questions. These are what we call the tough questions that Christians face not only from outside the church, but from within the church, right?

Right, and so all of these especially when John MacArthur's gonna be addressing is Jesus the only way I'm assuming. The rampant pluralism that's going to be addressed at that point. J. Ligon Duncan post-modernism.

These are all extremely difficult questions that are coming into the church. And so I would imagine you're you're hoping that everyone from across the the Valley of the Sun which by the way Are you aware is the fifth largest?

Urban area in the United States. We passed Philadelphia a couple of years ago. Yeah, it's it's it's a big place lots and lots of people many many unchurched people here.

Well 25 years ago James. I used to spend four months a year in Scottsdale writing. Mm-hmm, and. And I would go play golf sometimes out in the desert. And where I used to go play golf isn't a desert anymore.

No.

Yes, yes, believe me I I moved here in 1974 and There there wasn't much out there. There is there is now it's. I don't know where all these people work. And I don't know where we get the water for him either.

I really don't but They're still moving here, and if we had the kind of weather we have during the winter here all the time. We wouldn't have a place to stack the people, but thankfully it's about a hundred and six degrees and semi-humid outside right now.

And that helps to keep the population down so. Well. Now you said that you're going to be having some surgery so I'm certain that myself and many others would wish to pray for you and pray for your rapid recovery from that and.

So that would probably mean that when you come to Scottsdale this next time you're not gonna be looking at playing any golf. No, I don't think so. Yeah, well we just hope that you have an excellent trip out I'm sure that many people will be looking forward to have an opportunity of greeting you and Certainly, I want to thank you for taking the time to be with us today on the on the program and and that there'll be many people who will make the choice to be there in September to hear these important questions faced and Certainly are thankful for your lifelong ministry and equipping the the people of God.

I appreciate it. I hope I get to see you when we're out there. Well. I certainly hope so as well. Thank you very much, sir. All righty. Thank you. Thank you for calling. God bless. Bye. Bye. Bye. That of course is dr. RC Sproul anyone can remember can recognize dr. Sproul's voice.

I will never forget and get tell a story before we bring a Mel Duncan on. I'm I remember in 1995 at the Christian booksellers Association conference In Denver, Colorado myself and some other wide-eyed young reformed folks managed to track dr Sproul down in a hallway and I remember he was very gracious to speak with us at the time our big question had to do with the the issue of Evangelicals and Catholics together and He had some very excellent insights for us On that particular subject and so very thankful for dr. Sproul's ministry now.

Ligonier, the Local Church, and the Next Generation

We're joined on the phones now by Mel Duncan calling in.

Thank you. Mellie able to hear me. I sure can dr. White. It's a delight to be with you today.

Well, it is awfully good to be with you as well. Now Mel help us to understand your relationship here to To Ligonier and to the upcoming conference as well. Dr. White.

I'm the church relations director and that means that when I get to interact with Local church leaders and pastors all over the country I get to hear stories just like what you told about the last time or the first time that you had a conversation with RC Sproul.

It's it's a lot of fun really to talk to ministers young and old I get I get an opportunity to come to towns like Scottsdale and Phoenix and meet with folks in the area and Try to build our relationship with a local church.

Before I get into all of that though I want to say I'm a big fan of the dividing line and I love to keep up with what you're doing down there in The Valley of the Sun and appreciate the Ministry of Alpha and Omega very much.

Well, I appreciate that.

I I know that a few years ago. I had the opportunity of having correspondence with and in conversation with. I've heard people use other terms of Familiarity, but I just call him J Ligon Duncan and I know there are shortened versions of that but I'll never get used to it so I remember hearing him on a nine marks program once and and one of the people was just always calling him by three letters and I Was just like oh, but anyways, I I very much appreciated some of the insights that I was able to gain From dr. Duncan at that time and and so it's it's good to see the body working together we we all have different gifts and it's You know important that we share them with one another.

So now this so Ligonier is seeking to have relationships with with churches. I I really appreciate that because I am a churchman and I believe very much that the church is the focus. There's just too much in the New Testament about the church For it to be treated like it so often is and in evangelicalism today And so I really appreciate that that you seek to have that kind of relationship.

There are a lot of ministries out there that sort of bypass the local church and Seek to go directly to the people and I I've always had a real real hard time with them.

Well that that is our conviction as well. Dr White our our goal is to reach a group of people who are somewhere between Sunday school and the seminary. And and so we do tend to get a lot of lay folks interested in Ligonier whether that's one of our whether that's a regional event a pastor's gathering.

We have a pastor's conference. And then of course, we have our regional conferences like the one that it'll be in Phoenix at the end of September. And there are a lot of different folks who come to our events a lot of folks listen to us on radio.

But really if we're not Encouraging and plugging these folks back into the local church That that's really where the actions at and that's where the means of grace live and that's that's really our goal is to encourage these folks In their understanding of the knowledge of God, but do everything we can to encourage them to be active within the local church.

You know RC preaches still three times a Sunday and I think he views everything he's doing in the local church as Every bit as important as what he's doing on the conference circuit and with his radio ministry.

Well, I personally think that if a if a man is Seeking to minister within the church and to take what he is Studying take what he's writing and make it understandable within the context of the brothers and sisters in Christ that he sees on a regular basis it has an incredible impact on The public ministry that he then has when he's not in that local church.

I mean, I I'll never forget speaking to the young people at my church. For many years on a one we had a schedule on Wednesday evenings I had to teach the young people just like just like everybody all the other adults in the church were taking that turn and speaking to them about the doctrine of the Trinity and You know, you can write books about really high Theology but when you have to communicate it to the kids you find out if you really understand it.

Sure, and I have seen that over and over again. And maybe that's one of the secrets to RC's ability to communicate to such a wide spectrum of people is that if you don't do that, I think you can really end up sinking into the mire of The Academy speak shall we say and the failing to be able to communicate that that's so interesting.

You say that this sort of touches on something RC mentioned as you had your conversation with him. We see something at Ligonier and I would be interested to see Your observations dr. White because I know you interact with folks in the Academy and in the local church.

But we really do see an interesting reformed evangelical conservative reformed Wave of folk out there right now and of course a lot of that is can be attributed to ministries like Ligonier perhaps to Our friend John MacArthur and John Piper and and the many people who they have sort of brought on board the the arc of reformed thinkings.

But we really do see something of a youth movement going on out there and it's it's pretty exciting. To go to places like Portland or to Dallas or to Charlotte all of which are a regional events We've held in the last year or so and see how the audience seems to be getting younger and It's very exciting because a lot of folks like to lay a lot of claims at the feet of people who believe in reformed theology.

But it seems to be this generation is more interested in the kind of ideas That reformed folks have held to firmly for many years. What what do you think about that? Well, yeah, I I do see that.

I I did a debate a Few years ago in Los Angeles at the Anaheim vineyard. This was The name probably rings a bell. I I had never seen a church that had as much room between the front pews and This was really a stage.

It wasn't a pulpit there. But this huge area and I remember staying there sort of looking at it before the debate and someone said well The reason that's there is that's where all the people get slain in the spirit.

And I was sort of like, okay. All right, and I was debating George. This wasn't a KJV only debate. It was not. I was debating George Bryson of Calvary Chapel who's written a book like the dark side of Calvinism, right and we were debating Salvation who's in charge and I was amazed at who turned out.

I don't think anybody from the Anaheim vineyard was there. We had we had trouble finding people to turn the lights on but they that part of us because they're having a mime show that night, but anyways.

And the Calvary Chapel folks what was really encouraging to me was I had young men coming up to me during the break and They were saying don't hold back. We the Calvary Chapel people need to hear this your your book The Potter's freedom has helped so many of us to learn what exegesis is and and how to do this.

Please don't hold back give it preach it brother is basically what they were saying and they were. These are men who had given up something to hold this viewpoint. They they had taken the The road less traveled shall we say and so yeah, I do see that kind of of hunger on their part.

These younger people's part to have a connection to something that has been consistent. It's biblical it honors the Word of God it honors God's holiness. It is consistent with what we see in the world around us and man's sinfulness, etc.

Etc. And the fluffiness of the opposites shall we say Just is not attractive to those who really want to have a deep-seated commitment to truth. And so yes, I I do see that and it is it is truly exciting to see and I'm glad that you're seeing that at At the Ligonier conferences as well.

So the one coming up in Scottsdale you're you're focusing on. Tough tough questions, but they're all they all seem to be related very closely to the gospel itself I mean, obviously our C's topics are right there.

But you know, you have suffering you have Jesus the only way post-modernism all these subjects eventually Devolved down to a discussion of the gospel itself and you know, dr.

Why you've observed and talked about for many months now How that the gospel has been under assault both from within and from without. I I don't think I'm a relatively young man I'm in my late 30s, but I don't remember any time in my lifetime where the gospel from without has been under assault like it has the last few years the The the atheists are the the nouveau-riche of society right now.