R.C. Sproul and Mel Duncan

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And good afternoon evening. Welcome to the dividing line on a

Thursday afternoon And I know today that most people are tuning in not to listen to me whatsoever

But to our special guests today, so I will Forgo the normal opening commentary and bring online with me

The gentleman that you all want to listen to and that is dr. R. C. Sproul. Dr.

Sproul. How are you doing today? Hey James, it's great to talk with you again. Now. I have a question that I think everybody

That I know of is most interested in finding out and it's normally one of those questions you ask in polite conversation

But this time everybody really wants to know how are you? Actually, I'm doing very well

I'm in better health now and I have been probably in 15 year James with the notable exception of a bad wheel.

I have a Bad knee and I'm scheduled for total knee replacement surgery next

Thursday. I can't wait for it Oh my next Thursday. Yeah well, all

I can say is hopefully dry heat is good for knee replacements because That's what you're gonna get when you come to Scottsdale in late

September the monsoons should be over so the humidity should be gone and The highs well,

I hate to tell you we've had it as high as a hundred and three on October 23rd So I've been out there before but you know the dry heat so much better than what we have here here

We don't know what dry heat is. No just what heat Well, it hopefully will be very good for you and hopefully you'll have a wonderful time out in in Scottsdale now

I'm looking at the lineup that you have put together for the conference the 26th and 27th of September out at Scottsdale Bible Church and I'm seeing a bit of a theme here

You are speaking on if God is sovereign How can man be free in the evening session the first night and then in the afternoon

What is the gospel? So that sounds to me? Like you're going to be addressing.

Are you are you going to be addressing? I guess should be the way I put it some of the more common objections to reform theology

In those titles. Yes, not only to reform theology James, but also to the

Christian faith in general as well Okay, now I recall very very clearly

Reading I was about to You got to remember since I wrote the Potter's Freedom.

There's another chosen book in my life not chosen by God, but Some other one that I forget the title at the moment.

But anyway, I remember very clearly in reading chosen by God a

Line that you used at that time when you spoke of man's freedom and God's freedom

You said God is free man is free. God is more free than I am when my freedom runs into God's freedom.

I lose And I appreciate the fact that you express that without quite the long

Sentences that Brother Edwards used to express a similar concept

But nobody ever said it better than Edward. No, that's true. But I I'm one

I sort of wonder if more people have read your explanation than his because it's much more accessible in in the same number of years since it was written, but the first talk you're going to be giving a lot of folks hear you on the radio and They know something about this

Reformed theology business and yet most of time their objections have to do with the concept of man's will is that Are those the people you you want to reach there?

Oh sure. I mean, this is one of the most Constant questions that I hear all the time as I'm sure you're aware of James that I've never met a

Christian in my life who said that they didn't believe in the sovereignty of God But the idea that's pervasive out there in the culture is that God's sovereignty is limited by human freedom

And of course if that were the case Then it's not God who would be sovereign, but we would be sovereign on the contrary

We would say yes that the human freedom is real But it's limited and it is always and everywhere limited by God's sovereignty

So that we have to place the limitation At the proper point the other problem that I think that all

Christians wrestle with particularly in America Is that when we talk about free will?

we tend to fill that concept with Notions that we have been taught from the time.

We are children not realizing that the Common and popular understanding of free will is not the

Christian view but is humanistic secular view You know the common view of free will is that that we have the ability equal ability to opt for good or for evil that there's no inclination tendency or bias that restricts the expression of our choices

And as I say, that's a secular view of free will It's not the biblical view the biblical view says that we still have a capacity for choosing

We still have the power to choose what we want to but the fundamental problem is that the want -to is in bondage to sin and And so anytime you talk about willing from a

Christian perspective you have to account for this Bondage of which the scripture speaks.

Well now, let me ask you you have been Ministering the word many more years than I have

I'm Catching up percentage -wise, but I never will in any other way and I have noticed so I'd like to get your take on this

I have noticed that it certainly seems to me like coming through the front door of the church is an a veritable flood of Worldly thinking so many in the church today do not have a purposely formed

Christian worldview and as such they bring the very concepts you were just speaking in regards to Freedom of the will and things like that.

They bring it right into their interpretation of the Christian faith. Have you seen a

Trend toward that that makes it for each passing decade that much more necessary to cover the basics and to Challenge people to have a biblical worldview because it's so invasive within the church without question

James I really believe that every one of us no matter how well -trained we may be in theology or how

Devoted we are in our personal faith. We're exposed Every day to all kinds of ideas

That are on a collision course with the biblical truth and we we don't always recognize them

And I think all of us have allowed certain ideas to creep into our thinking uncritically and one of the goals of the

Christian life is to gain the mind of Christ that means that every value that I have every concept that I have every

Viewpoint that I espoused I have to keep examining according to Scripture Now you you are involved of course in the ministry of the church

You're involved with being obedient in that way as we're all called to be that way. Wouldn't you?

Agree that really that's where God has intended that kind of remedial

Reformation being conformed the image of Christ resisting the pressures of the world Isn't that first and foremost to be found in the proclamation of God's Word within the church?

well To my in my 45 years of teaching James. I I haven't been able to find any other place

To root that and I think this is one of the great weaknesses of the church today is that we're looking everywhere else

Except to the word to find answers to our questions and and Resolutions to the difficulties that we face.

I think we've in many cases We've lost confidence not only in the truth of the Word of God But in the power of the

Word of God, I keep telling my students in ministry That's where the power is the power isn't in programs the power is not in education

The power is not in eloquence. The power is in the word because that's where God placed it

Hi, I'm resisting saying too many amens here because I'm a Reformed Baptist. We don't really do that, but If that's the one thing

I have to complain about about Reformed Baptist is we do not amen enough It just it would really help me out when

I'm preaching too But if you guys don't have it in the Reformed Baptist community, what do you think? You're God's frozen chosen somebody callers out.

Amen in my church. I stopped. Thank you very much. I Know exactly what you mean by that, but you know when when you say when you were just speaking of a lack of confidence in the ministry of the word the authority of the word the power of the word and I would say

Could we could we criticize ourselves could we criticize reformed people that in some ways we tend to be

Afraid of speaking of the power of the spirit Likewise being so absolutely necessary for the successful preaching of the word, you know

There may be a lot of truth in that and it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense You know

Nobody's name is more closely identified with historic reformed theology than joined Calvin A lot of people like to keep that a secret because he's been so vilified but among other things

Calvin was described as the theologian of the Holy Spirit Calvin really drove the point constantly that the preaching of the word is impotent unless that it is accompanied by the spirit and I know every every time

I preach every Sunday morning and Sunday night James and before every message

I pray for the spirits Power to descend and it's not a rote thing

I make that prayer because I understand that my words will be absolutely useless unless the spirit accompanies the word and Reformed theology puts a great deal of emphasis on regeneration on rebirth and We understand that's where the sovereignty of God is most powerfully

Influenced and affected by the spirits power to change the disposition of the heart.

So if all people Who should be? Proclaiming the power of the spirit.

It should be reformed people, right? and yet you certainly have to have been just as The only term

I can use is is shocked to read so many Non -reformed men who when you proclaim the freedom of God and bring about regeneration you proclaim

The power of the spirit and taking out the heart of stone giving a heart of flesh

The terminology that is often used to in essence disagree and I have a hard time not saying sometimes mock that freedom of God saying that that God is

Engaging in divine rape or he's he's rewiring us against our will so on and so forth

It it truly Concerns me when I when I hear that kind of response to the assertion that it's

God through the preaching of the word the power of the spirit is Glorifying himself through the gospel and drawing his people into himself and to see people treat it that way.

Do you ever? Do you ever have opportunity of talking with some of those folks and saying?

What in the world are you talking about when you say that kind of thing? I make sure just about every day as you can imagine

James But I mean, I wish that every Christian who is struggling with this question would just be

Fly in the wall listening in to a Conversation that's recorded in the

Bible in the same chapter where we have drawn 316 in the discussion between Nicodemus and Jesus Where Jesus talks about being born again?

And when Jesus talks to Nicodemus about rebirth, he makes it clear that there's a necessary condition

That has to happen To a person before they come to saving faith our

Lord It's our Lord not John Calvin or Paul or anybody else. It's just Jesus. This is unless a man is born of The spirit he can't even see the kingdom of God Let alone enter it and yet we have

Multitudes of Christian people who are out there saying that you can come to faith

Without being born again The whole idea is that you have faith and then as a result of your faith or the result of your decision the result of your choice

Then you will be Reborn. It's just the opposite of what Jesus says

Jesus says we're born in the flesh and the flesh can do nothing and that which is born of the flesh is flesh and the

Necessary condition for saving faith is rebirth You know Jesus reiterates that in the sixth chapter of John when he says nobody can come to me

Unless it is given to him by the Father. And so I think the great line of division Historically on this point of theology is the order

Does faith come and then rebirth or does rebirth come and then faith?

I believe as you know James that Rebirth precedes faith and if it didn't nobody would ever manifest saving faith because Until we're born again.

We're in the flesh 100 % in the flesh and as Jesus indicated the flesh prophets nothing and Luther Reiterated that by saying that nothing is not a little something

Well, I know that I have Taken a lot of heat for saying similar things in regards to the logical precedence of regeneration to saving faith, but That's okay.

We'll continue to take that that heat as we as we look to what the scriptures say about the gospel but it really takes us back to The upcoming conference in September because you're going to be finishing things up By talking about what is the gospel now is that?

You know you have been over your career involved in so many discussions about so many aspects of the gospel

Is this are you going to be addressing a particular aspect here or is this more general?

What what direction are you playing on going when you saw that subject? Let me back just go back a little bit as several years ago at the

National bookseller Christian booksellers convention the Christian organization Took a poll on the floor of the convention where they asked people there and these were people who were in Christian publishing or owners of bookstores people who were

Not secular and not on the edges of the faith of the Christian Church But we're right in the middle of Christian education.

They asked a simple question. What is the gospel ask people to define it and The the ratio that they got was that about one out of a hundred answers was regarded as a

Unacceptable answer to the question. What is the gospel? Everybody hears the word

Everybody seems to think they know what the gospel is you ask people. What is the gospel and they'll say it means that you can have purpose in your life or that Jesus can be your

Savior and You can have forgiveness and all of these wonderful things that are the consequences of the gospel

But from a biblical perspective, there is a clear content to that idea of gospel in the

New Testament and the fundamental content has to do With what has been accomplished in the life and death of Jesus The gospel is what

Christ who Christ is what he has done and how we receive the benefits of his work through faith alone and So we need to go back to the fundamentals here to understand people say

I'm in the gospel ministry But they don't even know what the gospel is. I teach doctoral ministry program and I'll do the same thing

I'll ask the clergy there Tell me what the gospel is and they fumble all over the place and they don't get it that there is a defined content in the

New Testament about the gospel of Jesus you said something many years ago that again has

Stuck with me For a long long time, but it really bothers a lot of people.

I don't don't mean to Upset you to inform you that you've said things that bother people

So Something tells me here. You're fully aware of that fact and I very much appreciate your willingness to do that, but You you like to sometimes turn things on their head things that have been sort of accepted traditionally turn them upside down to make people think and Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty certain it was you that said

The question is not what will you do with Christ? The question is what will

Christ do with you? And that is so counter to so much of the

What's called? Evangelicalism today that it truly causes people to stop and think and many people find that Offensive and yet what you just said about the gospel sounds to me like you're saying look the gospel is about what

God has accomplished in Christ first and Foremost So that's the way you stated that thing that I turned upside down I would just like to just hone that a little bit

Basically what I've said in that context is in the final analysis. The question is not do you know

Jesus? But this Jesus know you and I draw that from the conclusion of the

Sermon on the Mount in Matthew Chapter 7 when Jesus said that many will come to him on the last day

Saying the Lord Lord didn't we do this in your name didn't we do that in your name and he's going to look at them and say

Who are you? Depart from me. I never knew you and The reason

I think that's so urgent is is this James that? One of the big problems we have in our zeal for evangelism

And I wish we had even more zeal for evangelism than we do, but we want so much So desperately to see our friends and loved ones and even our people who we've never met before come to a saving knowledge of Christ that we kind of try to prime the pump and encourage them to make a decision for Christ and get them to make a profession and We have multitudes of people who profess

Jesus they come to the altar They raise their hand. They say their prayer. And of course, we're supposed to make a profession of faith

But the biblical doctrine of justification is not justification by the profession of faith

But it's justification by the possession of it and Jesus gives that alarming warning one of the scariest things

He ever does he says look these people honor me with their lips But their hearts are far from me a person who's truly converted

Not only profess professes faith in Christ. He has faith in Christ and his life is changed

You know, you hear all this stuff about the carnal Christian the person who is really saved

But his life doesn't change and you can't find that in the Bible. That's nonsense. That's a theology that's been

Created to account for false professions most definitely and when you look at the result in the church of filling the church with people who have

No concept of the holiness of God. They have no concept of their own sin. They have no concept of Repentance toward God Can there be a more?

terrible thing than to Instruct a man to go and try to minister the life of God to spiritually dead people

I mean, how many people have you seen over your lifetime who? Had a desire to go into ministry they encounter that and now they now they do computers

They do something, you know completely different than that because number I heard was 16 ,000 pastors every year leave the ministry

Oh my there's a wide variety of reasons for that, but that's a huge number It is a huge number and I think part of it part of that number we can't know what is due to the the tremendous trial of trying to lead an unregenerate flock

And there is so much pressure and I I don't you you know, the the Presbyterian Church is better than I do.

I know that Recently a lot of attention was focused on the Southern Baptist Convention and the fact that their baptism numbers are are down And there's discussion about a the passage of a you know

Resolution at the convention actually promoting the idea of church discipline what an amazing thing that was and And yet there is such a pressure

Placed upon especially young pastors to in essence quote -unquote perform But but is there anybody out there?

Telling these young pastors that there's the standard that they have to reach for is that which? They will bring before the throne of God not the numbers standards at the denomination might be coming up with well

You know the organization called together for the gospel, which is an alliance of several leaders including

John Piper and John MacArthur and Luke Duncan and Al Mohler and I'm involved in this every other year we have conferences for clergy and This past year

I believe we had like 5 ,000 of them there James and the amazing thing to me was the vast majority of these clergy were in their 20s and early 30s

And so I was very much encouraged by this young group of pastors who are coming up and they're being

Informed about what biblical preaching is and and what the role of the pastor is you have the

Shepherds Conference that John MacArthur runs out there, you know, and he gets five or six thousand ministers to that and He's encouraging them to be expository preachers and to focus on the ministry of the word, you know in a secular world where the ministers expected to be a

CEO a guidance counselor And every other thing instead of principally being a shepherd of the word

Most definitely and I think so many people I see it in teaching in seminary so many of those young men are extremely conflicted because they see what the word says that there's what they're supposed to be doing and Yet the church does require them to wear so many different hats and to do so many different things that That they are truly torn and as a result

Unfortunately frequently take the shortcuts when it comes to sermon preparation and when that becomes

Necessary to keep the numbers up. It's it's a sad thing to it's a sad thing to see now our times running out with you

I just wanted to Give you one last opportunity when you are going to be speaking in Scottsdale and you're going to be addressing

What is the gospel? Would this be something that we would want to bring people to who maybe have some misunderstandings concerning the nature of God's grace concerning maybe have some inflated views of man's role in regards to Salvation is this something we'd want to make sure that they they hear.

Well, let me tell you that what what all of the different Questions we're going to be addressed.

The first one is has science disproved the existence of God The second one why does God allow so much suffering and evil the third one is if God is sovereign?

How can man be free? The next one is is Jesus the only way the next one is should the church embrace post -modernism and then finally

What is the gospel so you can see there's a variety of questions These are what we call the tough questions that Christians face not only from outside the church

But from within the church, right? Right, and so all of these especially when John MacArthur's gonna be addressing is

Jesus. The only way I'm assuming The rampant pluralism that's going to be addressed at that point

J. Ligon Duncan post -modernism These are all extremely difficult questions that are coming into the church

And so I would imagine you're you're hoping that everyone from across the the Valley of the Sun which by the way

Are you aware is the fifth largest? Urban area in the United States We passed

Philadelphia a couple of years ago Yeah, it's it's it's a big place lots and lots of people many many unchurched people here

Well 25 years ago James. I used to spend four months a year in Scottsdale writing.

Hmm, and And I would go play golf sometimes out in the desert And where I used to go play golf isn't a desert anymore no

Yes, yes, believe me I I moved here in 1974 and There there wasn't much out there

There is there is now it's I don't know where all these people work and I don't know where we get the water for him either

I really don't but They're still moving here. And if we had the kind of weather we have during the winter here all the time

We wouldn't have a place to stack the people but Thankfully, it's about a hundred and six degrees and semi -humid outside right now and that helps to keep the population down.

So Well now you said that you're going to be having some surgery so I'm certain that myself and many others would wish to pray for you and pray for your rapid recovery from that and So that would probably mean that when you come to Scottsdale this next time you're not going to be looking at playing any golf

No, I don't think so. I don't think I'll be ready for that. Yes Yeah, well, we just hope that you have an excellent trip out

I'm sure that many people will be looking forward to have an opportunity of greeting you and Certainly, I want to thank you for taking the time to be with us today on the on the program and and that there will be many people who will make the choice to be there in September to hear these important questions faced and Certainly are thankful for your lifelong ministry and equipping the the people of God.

I appreciate it I hope I get to see you when we're out there. Well, I certainly hope so as well. Thank you very much, sir All righty.

Thank you. Thank you for calling. God bless. Bye. Bye. Bye That of course is dr. RC Sproul anyone can remember can recognize.

Dr. Sproul's voice I will never forget and get tell a story before we bring a Mel Duncan on I'm I remember in 1995 at the

Christian Booksellers Association conference in Denver, Colorado Myself and some other wide -eyed young Reformed folks managed to track.

Dr. Sproul down in a hallway and I remember he was very gracious to speak with us at the time.

Our big question had to do with the the issue of Evangelicals and Catholics together and He had some very excellent insights for us

On that particular subject and so very thankful for dr. Sproul's ministry now We're joined on the phones now by Mel Duncan calling in Thank you.

Mellie able to hear me. I sure can dr. White. It's a delight to be with you today Well, it is awfully good to be with you as well now

Mel help us to understand your relationship here to To Ligonier and to the upcoming conference as we're

Dr. White I'm the church relations director and that means that when I get to interact with local church leaders and pastors all over the country

I get to hear stories just like what you told about the last time or the first time that you had a conversation with RC Sproul It's it's a lot of fun really to talk to ministers young and old

I get I get an opportunity to come to towns like Scottsdale and Phoenix and meet with folks in the area and Try to build our relationship with a local church

Before I get into all of that though I want to say I'm a big fan of the dividing line and I love to keep up with what you're doing down there in The Valley of the

Sun and appreciate the ministry of Alpha and Omega very much. Well, I appreciate that I I know that a few years ago.

I had the opportunity of Having correspondence with and in conversation with I've heard people use other terms of Familiarity, but I just call him

J Ligon Duncan and I know there are shortened versions of that, but I'll never get used to it. So I remember hearing him on a nine marks program once and and one of the people was just always calling him by three letters

And I was just like oh, but anyways, I I very much appreciated Some of the insights that I was able to gain

From dr. Duncan at that time and and so it's it's good to see the body working together we we all have different gifts and it's

You know important that we share them with one another. So now this so Ligonier is seeking to Have relationships with with churches.

I I really appreciate that because I am a churchman and I believe very much that the church is the focus.

There's just too much in the New Testament about the church For it to be treated like it so often is and in evangelicalism today

And so I really appreciate that that you seek to have that kind of relationship. There are a lot of Ministries out there that sort of bypass

The local church and seek to go directly to the people and I I've always had a real real hard time with them

Well that that is our conviction as well. Dr White our our goal is to Reach a group of people who are somewhere between Sunday school and the seminary

And and so we do tend to get a lot of lay folks interested in Ligonier Whether that's one of our conferences or whether that's a regional event a pastors gathering.

We have a pastors conference And then of course we have our regional conferences like the one in It'll be in Phoenix at the end of September and there are a lot of different folks who come to our

Events a lot of folks listen to us on radio But really if we're not Encouraging and plugging these folks back into the local church

That that's really where the actions at and that's where the means of grace live And that's that's really our goal is to encourage these folks

In their understanding of the knowledge of God, but do everything we can to encourage them to be active within the local church

You know RC preaches still three times a Sunday and I think he views everything he's doing in the local church as Every bit as important as what he's doing on the conference circuit and and with his radio ministry well,

I personally think that if a if a man is seeking to minister within the church and to Take what he is studying take what he's writing and make it understandable

Within the context of the brothers and sisters in Christ that he sees on a regular basis. It has an incredible impact on The public ministry that he then has when he's not in that local church.

I mean, I I'll never forget speaking to the the young people at my church for many years on a

We had a schedule on Wednesday evenings I had to teach the young people just like just like everybody all the other adults in the church.

We're taking that turn and Speaking to them about the doctrine of the Trinity and You know, you can write books about really high

Theology, but when you have to communicate it to the kids you find out if you really understand it

Sure, and I have seen that over and over again And maybe that's one of the secrets to RC's ability to communicate to such a wide spectrum of people is that if you don't do that,

I think you can really end up sinking into the mire of The Academy speak shall we say and the failing to be able to communicate that that's so interesting

You say that this sort of touches on something RC mentioned as you had your conversation with him

We see something at Ligonier and I would be interested to see Your observations dr.

White because I know you interact with folks in the Academy and in the local church But we really do see an interesting reformed evangelical conservative reformed

Wave of folk out there right now and of course a lot of that is can be attributed to ministries like Ligonier perhaps to Our friend

John MacArthur and John Piper and and the many people who they have sort of brought on board the the arc of reformed thinkings

But we really do see something of a youth movement going on out there and it's pretty exciting

To go to places like Portland or to Dallas or to Charlotte all of which are a regional events

We've held in the last year or so and see how the audience seems to be getting younger and It's very exciting because a lot of folks like to lay a lot of claims at the feet of people who believe in reformed theology

But it seems to be this generation is more interested in the kind of ideas That reformed folks have held to firmly for many years.

What what do you think about that? Well, yeah, I I do see that I I did a debate

A few years ago in Los Angeles at the Anaheim vineyard. This was

The name probably rings a bell. I I had never seen a church that had as much room between the front pews and This was really a stage.

It wasn't a pulpit there But this huge area and I remember staying there sort of looking at it before the debate and someone said well

The reason that's there is that's where all the people get slain in the spirit And I was sort of like, okay.

All right, and I was debating George It was not

I was debating George Bryson of Calvary Chapel who's written a book like the dark side of Calvinism and we were debating

Salvation who's in charge and I was amazed at who turned out. I don't think anybody from the

Anaheim vineyard was there We had we had trouble finding people to turn the lights on but they that part of us because they're having a mime show that night, but anyways

And the Calvary Chapel folks what was really encouraging to me was I had young men coming up to me during the break and They were saying don't hold back

We the Calvary Chapel people need to hear this your your book The Potter's freedom has helped so many of us to learn what exegesis is and and how to do this

Please don't hold back give it preach it brother is basically what they were saying and they were These are men who had given up something to hold this viewpoint.

They they had taken the The road less traveled shall we say and so yeah,

I do see that kind of of hunger on their part These younger people's part to have a connection to something that has been consistent

It's biblical it honors the Word of God it honors God's holiness It is consistent with what we see in the world around us and man's sinfulness, etc, etc, and the fluffiness of the opposites shall we say

Just is not attractive to those who really want to have a deep -seated commitment to truth And so yes,

I I do see that and it is it is truly exciting to see and I'm glad that you're seeing that at At the

Ligonier conferences as well. So the one coming up in Scottsdale you're you're focusing on Tough tough questions, but they're all they all seem to be related very closely to the gospel itself

I mean, obviously our C's topics are right there But you know, you have suffering you have

Jesus the only way post -modernism all these subjects eventually Devolve down to a discussion of the gospel itself and you know, dr

Why you've observed and talked about for many months now How that the gospel has been under assault both from within and from without I I don't think

I'm a relatively young man I'm in my late 30s, but I don't remember any time in my lifetime where the gospel from without has been under assault like it has the last few years the

The the atheists are the the nouveau riche of society right now

You know You've got your Dawkins and all of these other Sam Harris's and Christopher Hitchens that are really in a in an upfront

Right out loud and in front of the whole culture kind of way Ridiculing gospel distinctive and I think you've seen something of an of a renewed interest from folks within Evangelicalism to to do a better job of articulating gospel distinctive to to the broader culture to the broader

Front that that are we're facing in the culture wars. I also think you see a little bit within this

Calvinistic reformed resurgence of a revival and a love and an appreciation of the doctrines of grace, and I think you see that within Southern Baptist circles, we have all kinds of folks from a variety of Theological backgrounds that at our pastors conference we may have 20 or 30 different kinds of church backgrounds represented from a mainline church to a to a community or a

Bible type church to everything in between and There is a renewed interest in the doctrines of grace and these questions are useful

Not only for folks who are trying to fight the broader cultural wars But also are useful for people who are trying to explain the sovereignty of God and suffering or to explain how do we deal with Suffering and evil and then the the broader questions of has science disproved the existence of God and and what do we do?

with post -modernism and And and so I think we think this will be a useful conference for folks who have friends

Who maybe they want to get some help on how to have conversations about these sorts of things with their friends get some good teaching from John MacArthur RC and and Ligon and and just it'd be a great conference to bring an unbelieving friend or family member to and and then you know use that weekend as an opportunity to have good discussions about theological things with them especially people who have imbibed the idea which unfortunately we can certainly understand where they get the idea and that is that That Christianity is a faith that invites you to in essence turn off your your brain stop engaging in critical thinking

And unfortunately, let's face it when people turn on certain television networks that will remain nameless even though here in Phoenix is on the channel between 20 and 22 that Christians don't think about talking about the channel with people with purple hair.

Oh, no, I wouldn't I Am so politically correct now that I would never do anything like that Of course because that just be too easy to figure out to any broadcasting who we're talking about.

So But and seriously, I mean you you you listen to these people preaching and if people let's face it

We we get painted, you know in this in the same colors, whether we whether it's fair or not

Whether we we we chuckle about it or not We get painted in the same colors when you when you listen to Richard Dawkins speak

You will often hear him addressing that kind of a mindset now It may be completely different than how you and I approach the faith

But unfortunately, that's how people view us as well And so it would seem that people if they think that could come to this conference and they'd certainly get a different viewpoint

We hope so we hope so, you know, these are these are these are great conferences for learning they're great conferences for Maybe for the first time discovering the richness of our common evangelical faith

You know, I was just talking to a minister yesterday. We were talking about a popular Christian novel out right now and he was going on and on about how this is opening up people's understanding of the

Trinity And you probably can guess the novel. I'm talking about. Yes. Yes Small building, that's right.

That's right a barn like structure. That's a You know Evangelicals have had so little teaching on the

Trinity, isn't it? Sad that a novel is going to be what what teaches them what will end up being a poor view of the

Trinity? but maybe more than they've ever heard or been taught about the Trinity and Yeah, you know, that's why we appreciate ministries like you.

That's why we appreciate The debate the people you've taken on even when you've taken on us mean old

Presbyterians on various things We really appreciate what you've done because you've helped us see how we have to articulate our faith in the context of the authority of Scripture and Let let the lion go, you know, let the

Bible let the word guide us. We're not captive to tradition We're not captive at a post -modernism.

We're not captive to science a God's Word is sufficient And it will answer every question that we need to know and that's what we're going to try to do

You know, it's wonderful to see at these events the interplay between folks in the audience oftentimes, there'll be a

Free -flowing Q &A not unlike the dividing line Q &A when you get some really interesting questions and come out of left field

The interplay between RC and the other speakers, you know RC and John MacArthur had this wonderful friendship

And it's it's been pretty neat the last few years to just watch them Visit with one another and to listen to what they talk about and and how they love one another and of course

You've already alluded to my big brother Ligon Duncan will be there as well. And it's neat to see this gathering of friends get together and do a conference for people and We're excited about being in Phoenix and we hope to see you there

I just really hope that we can manage to keep it below a hundred and ten for you

Some of you folks even even from the south and I can't now I'm sorry if I can tell you're from the south

There's a little reason why I can but I won't tell you what it is Honestly September though is

By that point in September the the humidity is broken and it is gorgeous here It truly truly is so hopefully we're gonna be my first trip to the

Valley of the Sun really and I'm excited about that And I hope to come out in September. I'd love to take you out to lunch or oh, yeah, that'd be that'd be very enjoyable

Yeah, we're excited about that and Phoenix has been great for for Ligonier We've been we've been there a few years ago and we come in and out

Have been in and out over the years and we're excited about getting to meet folks in the Phoenix area

When I was I was even before you brought it up I was looking at the at the conference and the next thing

I was going to mention to you is now I I know some people who might criticize you for having

John MacArthur and RC Sproul on the same ticket and I remember back in in the 90s

Hearing a very brotherly exchange between RC and John on the subject of baptism

I think it was at the Shepherds conference wasn't it was that where that was? I'm trying to remember very well could I think it was

I know RC came out and spoke at the Masters College or this master's seminary and I know there's been some

Some interaction on that over the year. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think it was and and I I think that that encounter and then

Two years ago Bill Shishko. I'm not sure if you know Bill, but so I know Bill very well Okay, good bill and I had our debate and I you know,

I I don't know if you've heard it But I was so appreciative of the fact that the night before we had that debate.

I was at the Franklin Square Presbyterian Church and Orthodox Presbyterian Church need to put that in there and I was speaking on Islam and I have preached from his pulpit and We are we are brothers in the

Lord. I've had him here on the on the program he and I addressed new perspectivism on the dividing line together in the past and There is a unity and I really think it's the unity we have on the essence of the gospel that gives us the freedom to then go to the

Word of God and disagree on these other issues and to do so in such a fashion that we shake each other's hands and we can identify each other as as Brothers in the

Lord and it's just so different because most of my debates. I can't do that I'm not in that position as you know in January debating

Bart Ehrman on On the issues that are raised by his his books and things like that It's just a completely different realm and it's so wonderful to be able to do those things and unfortunately

People on both sides of the aisle don't think we should be doing that kind of stuff But I really think that it's very important well dr

White a friend of mine has said that Christians are really the only people in the world who can have a disagreement with one another because we we have the gospel in common and it's it's wonderful really to as iron sharpens iron to talk about these things and to do it within the bonds of Christian Brotherhood and and we certainly have appreciated you as you have taken on all sorts of Folks over the years for for for gospel things, but we've also appreciated you as you've had

Discussions within the family over theological matters and it's it's neat to see that with RC and John MacArthur as well because certainly they have a different eschatologies and and some different things that come out at times but but on the big things they're they're right beside one another and It's really wonderful to see them interact with one another and to challenge one another and I think they make one another

Stronger by doing that. Oh, yeah, most definitely. Well as you probably know then Between well, actually the week before The Ligonier conference here in Scottsdale.

I'm going to be doing three debates on Islam in Southern, California and Then just a few weeks later

Gonna be heading over to actually a little bit more than that in November over to London for three debates they're going to speakers corner and then flying back and debating one of the

Islamic apologists that I have Been extremely impressed with in fact,

I saw a paper that he wrote against the deity of Christ Which is one of the most involved

Arguments that I have seen coming from the Islamic perspective. Dr. Zulfiqar Ali Shah We will be debating in Durham, North Carolina As well, and so I'm engaging this this area

And yet I'm doing so from a reformed perspective and it is very interesting

That that emphasis that that Christocentric element that theocentric element of reformed theology

Is something that I've seen resonate with the

Muslims That's that's something that they can understand that we are not

Subjecting the gospel to merely human standards that we have the highest view of Scripture the highest view of God's holiness

And so, you know, I have a saying you've probably heard a few times theology matters and it does determine how we do our apologetics and what we focus upon and what's really important and what we're willing to debate about and what we're willing to allow to be off to the side and things like that and it really seems to me that that That we need to encourage the reformed community to gain more

Passion about this need to proclaim the gospel with clarity to the

Muslims they are They're in the news all the time. But my experience is most

Christians are somewhat scared of them And your story is fascinating because I this past year

I had the occasion to visit with John Hendricks and his wonderful monarchism dot -com people and We were talking about the gospel in China, you know he has a special heart for China and a lot of the materials on his website are

He has Chinese translations of things and he is really doing an amazing job of getting stuff into China and he has talked about how

Many in China recognized the Reformed Faith as the best expression of Christianity They're really not interested in the the one -inch deep 500 miles long

Evangelical scene out there and just recently we were we were told that a major university in Beijing That was doing a

Christian survey class had picked some of our C's material and had had them translated as a way of trying to show them an expression of classic

Western Christian thought hmm, and it's exciting to think about that that God has kept us faithful.

We hope and trust and perhaps there is going to be an unleashing of his spirit through our common enterprise and That we might affect a group of people

Whether it be folks in the Middle East from Muslim countries or folks in totalitarian communist countries

Who knows what God can do from our endeavors? Oh, yeah, you know, I I'm It's so unusual for me to be talking to someone younger than me

I'm As you get older you it there's a transition period where you you start realizing that you know

Your doctor is younger than you and and you start going. Oh, man, Lord The Lord has put road signs along the way that sort of warning you

The end is near and be prepared to enter into eternity and your body gives you those signs, too

Unfortunately, you haven't gotten to 40. So you don't know anything about that yet, but Let's see how I do in the

Valley of Yes, indeed, but you know as I've been looking at At the fact that you know,

I'm past the halfway mark in my life. You start thinking about what do I want to leave?

What what do I want this life to really be all about and it changes your priorities?

And I one of the reasons I've really gotten involved with the the Islamic work In fact as soon as the programs over here,

I'm meeting my with my Arabic tutor for another lesson that's that's just what I've you know, and when you're 45 picking up your seventh language is not the easiest thing

I've ever done and The reason I'm doing that is I want to leave a body of literature and not anymore.

It's not just literature It's on the internet. It's video. It's the whole nine yards, but I want to leave behind Something that is going to 20 30 50 years after I'm gone still

Be edifying the people of God and that's not easily done I mean books that's that that are relevant past their publication time and past the lives of their authors are

Our rare books. They really really are and I know for me Arcee's works, especially the holiness of God and chosen by God Had that character and they will continue to have that character.

They will continue To speak to people for decades and decades and generations and generations and that's a that's a testament it really is to The quality of the of the work that he produced and then his ability to communicate

Very important things the Spirit of God can then use in people's lives and I know those two books

Especially were so important in in grounding me I had been forced by the

Word of God to recognize these divine truths but to be able to communicate them to be able to see their consistency to be able to Understand really what they meant for the the whole of life

Was something that was accomplished in in in those books are not exactly Theological tomes in the sense of being super long they're very accessible to people and so I have always been extremely thankful for that and I the only reason

I didn't say that to Arcee directly on the air is I already told him that over dinner last last year when we were out in Hawaii together, but that's what

Ligonier has done, and I'm very appreciative of that and Obviously there are many more people who need to hear that message read those books

And so we certainly hope and pray that these upcoming conferences will Continue to be blessed by the

Lord in that way. Well. We thank you dr White for that and would it be okay if I give out the information one more time certainly please do please do if you are

Interested in coming. We would love for you to be there. There's some special pricing if you go to Ligonier dot org

You can there's there's a group discount policy of if you get a group of 25 folks together from your church

Or from your neighborhood, but we can give you a break there. There's some special pricing for ministers and young people and particularly if you get registered in the next week or so, there's a great rate of Of a discount rate of the conference and if you put a larger group together, there's some complimentary registration

So that conference again is is going to be September 26th and 27th at the

Scottsdale Bible Church that's on Miller Road near 101 and Shea Road and Please go to our website

Ligonier dot org. We would love to have the dividing line Family there and we'd love to visit with you and we appreciate being on being on the dividing line.

Well, that's why well now I really appreciate it. Thank you very much for joining us please thank RC for investing his time with us as well and and Lord willing especially as I've got three

Islamic debates the week before Lord willing. We will be with you Scottsdale and see you there.

Thank you very much for joining me today. All right. Thank you friend. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye All right.

Well, that was a very fast hour Thanks again to RC scroll Mel and Mel Duncan for joining us

We will be back for the last dividing line for a little while Next Tuesday here on the dividing line.

We'll see you then. God bless The Dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

If you'd like to contact us call us at six. Oh two nine, seven three four six zero two or write us at p .o

Box three seven one zero six Phoenix, Arizona eight five zero six nine. You can also find us on the worldwide web at a omen org

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks